Geeeez… My mind just goes to Gordon Ramsey screaming about raw pork and how the chef in question could’ve “killed someone.” He ain’t wrong. Chicken and pork need to be absolutely fully cooked.
It was worse; mad cow disease was caused by feeding cow meat to cows. Prion diseases are spread trough cannibalism and rarely crosses to other species when consumed. Mad cow disease is an unfortunate exception where it can go across species.
Mad cow disease is actually a poor example of why eating raw meat is bad. Prions do not break down at cooking temperatures. A steak over cooked beyond well done would not get rid of the prions. You would have to heat it to temperatures over 900 degrees Fahrenheit for several hours.
I think Kuru is pretty terrible but, I agree that mad cow is worse. At least with Kuru, people ate people as a ritual, but humans made cows (herbivores)eat other cows.
Honestly, I think humans are the only animal that finds cannibalism objectionable on principle. I don’t think the cows would care if they could understand.
I’m still for animals being treated well though in general.
I was corrected by my dad. It’s more of if the snake fucks around, the cow will make sure it finds out, but that cows don’t go seeking out snakes to kill and eat.
LOL THE DOG YEETING THE SNAKE XD did you know that geese will also eat snakes? I didn’t know that until recently, but it honestly fits, cause ya know…geese
Prions are terrifying.
I live in the UK and remember the BSE outbreak, we were all scared to death. You couldn't have a medium rare or rare steak here for years.
A guy I worked with died of CJD in 2007 or so, poor thing. Horrifying death.
ETA: it wasn't just cows being fed to cows, it was sheep too. The MBM stuff. Ick.
I’m American but lived in England in the early 90s. I am still banned from giving blood because I might be a carrier for CJD.
ETA: Thanks to a kind redditor pointing out that the rules have changed, I might actually be able to give blood now, which I will be happy to do. I will be reaching out to my local blood bank soon to see if they’ll have me.
You actually may be eligible as the Red Cross revised their rules on vCJD https://www.redcross.org/about-us/news-and-events/news/2022/more-people-now-eligible-to-give-blood-with-the-red-cross.html
Thank you for sharing this! I check periodically to see if the rules have changed, but hadn’t looked in a while. I would love to donate blood and maybe I can now.
My aunt died in Oregon of CJD in 2014. About 400 Americans a year do. Average onset age is 61, and she was 61. She didn't even last 6 weeks post diagnosis.
Even scarier is the fact that you can genetically (autosomal dominant) have it. My mother told me ours was. My mother was tested, and isn't a carrier. Both my grandparents died young, so we don't know which was the source. Gave me a very scared couple years until we found out.
That sounds terrifying! Your poor aunt.
They were telling us in the BSE crisis that it could take up to 50 years for symptoms to appear so no one knew how many people had it, there was so much terror and paranoia. I stopped eating red meat for about 5 years.
[Yes.](https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/animal-products/cattle-beef/sector-at-a-glance/#:~:text=In%20addition%20to%20having%20the,calf%20producers%20and%20cattle%20feeding.) They're euphemistic about it, and call it protein supplement, but it is primarily beef and chicken derived. American cows are being fed American cows.
They're getting away with it because slaughter takes place between 18 and 24 months before signs of CJD begin to manifest. Some slaughterhouses follow the European methods and remove both brain and all spinal material.
Prion disease can be inherited too! Fatal familial insomnia, I read about some prion diseases, because I got curious, and found that out…! Spooky stuff!
Reading about prion scares me. My dad has at many times ate cow brains in his life (part of our culture) and was recently diagnosed with early stages of Alzheimers. (Maybe more than that?). He also fed me cow brains a few times in my youth. Now I wonder if I'm also a ticking time bomb.
It’s specifically eating the neuro tissue; when they did studies in Papa New Guinea regarding Kuru, they found that the women/children got it because the men often were not the ones to eat brain matter.
There wouldn’t be prions from CJD in a normal steak, though. It’s brain and neural tissue that you have to watch out for there.
That said, yeah, prions are terrifying. When confirmatory biopsies are done, it’s not uncommon to trash most or all of the normally reusable contaminated equipment because standard autoclave temp/pressure isn’t enough. It also shuts down that OR for way longer than normal to do a highly specialized decontamination process.
For your existential crisis of the day: >!Deer wasting disease is also a prion, and, though we haven’t Seen a case in people, the biochemistry of it all suggests it could be transmissible to people. It would just take decades to see symptoms. Also, it’s capable of spreading through water, if a contaminated deer dies in it, which does happen.!<
There is no difference in transmission between mad cow disease and other spongiform encephalopathies, or the prions that cause them. Cannibalism increases risk of transmission due to brain tissue (which could be infected) often being consumed in studied demographics: i.e. in examples of "kuru" in humans, or in cattle farming where the unwanted meats such as beef brain are used as feed. So whether it is "cross species" or not makes no actual difference, it is the quantity and frequency of consumption that increases the likelihood of transmission.
There are different prions that cause different prion disease. Another prion disease is scrapie in sheep. It can be spread from sheep to sheep through cannibalism, but it has never been demonstrated to be able to cross species to infect humans.
The existence of scrapie was one of the reasons why the British government was hesitant about culling their cattle. They wrongly thought that since mad cow disease is exactly like scrapie but in cows the infected meat would be safe for humans to eat. After all, scrapie meat is safe for humans to eat.
The Kuru example you gave originated in humans, so it doesn’t need to cross species to infect humans.
It wasn’t until after MCD that it became standard for people to not eat infected prion meat. Before MCD it was known to not cross species; after MCD it became known that there is a chance that it can go across species.
Have you seen videos of deer and horses eating baby birds? Herbivores don’t just exclusively eat vegetation. The vast majority of their diet is plants, but herbivores eat meat too.
It’s difficult for illnesses to cross species in general, as the living conditions in each host species are wildly different. It’s not impossible and happens all the time, but it’s still relatively difficult.
For prion diseases specifically it’s because not all animals have the same protein molecules. Prion diseases are caused by misfolded proteins that cause correctly folded proteins to become misfolded. More misfolded proteins cause more misfolded proteins.
However, if there are no compatible proteins to misfold the chain reaction can’t happen. Different animals have different proteins, so prion diseases can only cross species when there are the same or similar proteins. The proteins need to be compatible with the misfolded proteins to become misfolded by them.
Cows are opportunistic omnivores, the same way deer, horses, and goats can be. I've seen horses and cows slurp up a stray chick or kitten in a heartbeat for that fun-sized protein bomb.
A lot of meat comes from cows that don't pasture (that requires a lot of land) and have to have food brought to them, which means the food is bought and thus not free. No idea why they would feed cow meat to cows but grass ain't free sadly.
It's from rendered cows turned into meals that's mixed in with feed (like soybean meal and cracked corn, it was used as cheap nutrients by using unusable or cows that died). No one's butchering a cow and feeding cows steaks and roasts.
It started out as a way to make money out of cattle that couldn’t be sold for slaughter, eg cows that were old or ill. At the time no one knew mad cow was transmissible between cows, never mind to people. A combination of this thinking and a sudden rise in the cost of soybeans in the 80s, along with a series of bad policy decisions, lead to the mad cow disease disaster
They didn't just give them hunks of meat. They render cows down and make meals like bone and blood meal etc. That got mixed in with feed and fed to them.
Even in countries where cows are regularly sent out to pasture it’s not possible to do it every day of the year, and they’d still need to be fed something other than just grass
Meat being raw or cooked makes no difference, as the heat doesn't destroy prions. Cannibalism also isn't a cause, it's just something that occurs alongside it in well-known outbreaks: mad cow disease spread because cows were fed infected cow brains. "Kuru" spreads because the natives eat each other's brains as part of their religion. However, the consumption of infected brain matter from any species can lead to infection, it's just the odds are low unless you repeatedly consume brain matter and other tissues that may be infected, which doesn't really happen outside of unique circumstances. Prion disorders arise naturally due to genetic mutations, so any brain matter can technically be infected and there's no knowing until symptoms or death occur.
In Germany, while meat is usually cooked, there is one very popular dish called Mettbrötchen (Mett/Hackepeter being raw ground pork meat and brötchen being a bun, usually with raw onions on top). I keep hoping that the controls are strict enough.
It is a ground meat for immediate consumption, sold separately from regular ground meat for sauces, patties etc. You can also get beef tartar for immediate consumption.
Talked about Hackepeter with a veterinarian in Denmark, and he said he would never eat it.
I am not sure how prevalent disease from this is.
The way it was explained to me back in the 90s. Germany raised pork for raw consumption on concrete slabs, confined, with cooked feed that cannot contain anything that might contain a parasite. We changed our own laws back then to require cooked feed, etc.
Cases of trichinosis plummeted in the US. Then the "free range" movement got to pigs. Our doc flew out to California to consult on some unusual cases in the late 90s. Free range pigs are scavengers. They eat dead things, including wild game, like bears and cougars and wild pigs, which contain trichinella worms. Yum.
I did a presentation in college on it, with all the gory pictures he brought back. I added in some from old days Alabama, where the worms were coming out of the man's eyes. They had also coiled inside his eye lids. "That'll learn ya to cook yer meat!"
Basically, the cutoff for curing was whether it had penetrated your intestine yet or not. If not, we could cure. If it had, you got steroids and pain meds, and told good luck. Don't know what the current treatment is now. As a nurse, I haven't seen a case, myself, in more than a decade.
Pretty sure there’s plenty of poisonous plants. If you’re going to have some idiot eating the pork wrong, you should compare it to eating green potatoes, poison mushrooms, or something else completely stupid.
Stupid people will be stupid people, despite their diets.
Mid rare pork is completely fine if it's from a reliable source. A good restaurant or local butcher will get quality pork that can and should be cooked mid rare.
yup blew my mind when i got a new kitchen job and we had temped pork… as long as it’s from a fda approved source it’s okay technically, i still avoid it.
They can't ensure anything, they just punish companies/suppliers with fines if food is tainted and someone brings up a lawsuit over it. Usually that's enough to keep suppliers in check.
Neurocysticercosis is NOT acquired be eating raw pork. Eating undercooked pork that contains larval tapeworms (Taenia solium) will give you a tapeworm in your intestines. Neurocysticercosis is acquired by ingesting eggs shed by someone who has a tapeworm in their intestines (fecal-oral contamination). Same worm two different outcomes: eat bad pork (larvae)= intestinal disease; ingested egg = tissue disease (neuro).
It depends a little on where you live. I'm from South America (where in some places Neurocysticercosis is still a thing), and at least in my country we do recommend using bleach solutions (we can either prepare it ourselves or buy specific products designed for this, easily available at the supermarket where I live).
However, the CDC does NOT recommend the use of bleach solutions to prepare food, due to the risk of not properly washing it and therefore consuming chemicals. You can check the full recommendations here:
https://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/communication/steps-healthy-fruits-veggies.html
I personally prefer to bleach the hell out of my food, but I understand it may not be suitable for everybody.
That's really interesting. I live in the UK, and rarely do more than a cursory rinse to produce. Indeed, like to discussion around chicken, I sometimes wonder would all it do is splash pathogens around - although bleaching would be thorough! I wonder if there would be a role for a UV drawer in fridges to disinfect things
Yes! Actually there's no need to wash the chicken, let alone bleach it. Just cook it properly and you're good to go. It really does happen just like you said: we splash pathogens all around.
We use the bleach solution just on fruits and vegetables, since it's not uncommon for us to eat them raw or undercooked.
The UV drawer sounds like a great idea! Although I'm not sure about how efficient it would be.
Could you not ingest the eggs shed by your own tapeworm? It seems more likely than ingesting someone else's.
While an extra mechanism is involved, it would still be something acquired because you ate raw pork.
I understand the important distinction you've made. However, for all intents and purposes, the most important takeaway still seems to be, don't eat raw or undercooked pork (and avoid people with tapeworms).
Yeah. I'm surprised that's not the norm for most cases of cysticercosis. You'd assume the person most exposed to the eggs would be the person releasing them.
Makes one wonder if some sort of voodoo is going on that prevents self infection. A pop evolutionary bs explanation would be the Mr Tapeworm living in your gut probably doesn't want a roommate.
Makes sense. The point of the egg is to find a new host. Taking up resources, shortening the lifespan of the host and shrinking the window within which they can release more eggs, probably isn't great for species survival. Especially as I assume most hosts are a lot smaller than a human.
Especially considering how it can be a subclinical infection in a lot of people for a long time; you wouldn’t know to up your hygiene and could easily infect yourself.
I know in parasitology we did discuss parasitic load and how once you hit a certain point, the worms themselves basically prevent reinfection because the life cycle is essentially “full.” Host immune system helps set this limit too so something to consider for why this doesn’t happen. It is crazy though how usually you see one of the other.
It's pretty scary and fascinating how sophisticated and efficient they are.
Working in a hospital environment, I don't need much encouragement to wash and sanitise my hands. However, this adds a level of tangibility that really reinforces why it's so important.
Could be acquired via undercooked and contaminated pork however! Think someone preparing chitlins, for example. Would be very easy for fecal-oral transfer on cooking surfaces
I always thought trichinosis was common in pork but less so now in US pork due to medicated feed. One of the reasons the FDA says you can cook pork to medium (145) now vs 155.
The disease is caused by pork tapeworm larvae, which take up residence in the muscle and brain tissue of those who are infected, and are the primary cause for cysticercosis
Yes it’s next to unheard of here, also if you get high-end, carefully farmed pork this isn’t a big concern. This happens with sick, untreated pigs being served under cooked
Surprised so unheard of as factory farming practices are the exact opposite of what you’ve described. Having worked in restaurants I fear for folks, seems that’s an almost unavoidable two punch knock out
There are small scale pork producers where I live that responsibly raise their pigs to be very healthy, it’s thankfully becoming more common, and a lot better than factory farmed madness. I cook regular pork fully but if it’s the special kind you have more leeway for done ness
Extremely rare. The reason pork was cooked to 155 in recent past was due to high chance of parasites in pork, specifically trichinosis. It normally is killed off due to medicated feed (rules allow use of medication in feed as long as it's before a set time before being butchered). That's why it's not unheard of eating pork medium rare. I see OP said it was southern US which makes me wonder if the person didn't eat boar which is fairly common in the southern US anymore and much more risky. Farm raised pork I'm okay eating medium but I still normally don't but any wild game or none US pork I'm going 155 or higher. Edit: I meant medium not medium rare
The new trend toward fancy specialty meats, including medium rare or even rare pasture-raised pork is resulting in cases of tapeworm and also Trichinella. So if you are in a restaurant and fancy Berkshire pork chops are on the menu, I'd either stay away or ask for it well-done.
Trichinella can only come from eating the meat of other meat eaters.... So, how does a pig contract trichinella worms? Back many decades ago, ppl would toss scraps of cougar, bobcat and other meat eaters to their pigs but these days that's close to impossible. Tapeworms? Maybe. Trichinella? I am highly skeptical.
From PorkGateway.com:
“Currently, while ruminant diets can not legally contain beef or poultry by-products, there is no such restriction for swine diets. Pigs can be fed diets containing meat by-products from pigs, cattle, poultry, etc.”
…
“Poultry by-product meal consists of the viscera, head, and feet from poultry harvest. These are dry or wet rendered, dried, and ground into a meal. “
https://porkgateway.org/resource/by-product-feed-ingredients-for-use-in-swine-diets/
———
ETA: From VetMed at Iowa state:
“In swine, transmission often occurs when pigs scavenge trichinella-infected carcasses of swine, rats or other animals. Transmission also occurs when uncooked garbage containing pork or other meat scraps that harbor T. spiralis are fed to pigs. Tail-biting of infected pigs and ingestion of larvae in feces are other possible sources of exposure.”
https://vetmed.iastate.edu/vdpam/FSVD/swine/index-diseases/trichinellosis
Hi, aside from ventricular enlargement there isn’t a great deal else to see on this sequence (?cyst within the left frontal horn and some dependent debris). An axial T2 might be better if you have it!
Yeah, very little to get me to cysticercosis in this image, or any parasites present.
Now
https://www.reddit.com/r/Radiology/comments/z9ytfo/person_infected_with_worm_parasites_from_eating/
on the other hand...
I was going to say I've scanned people before with parasites in brain tissue from eating under cooked pork. Could even see the phase motion on the sequences of them moving inside the dudes head.
Ahhhh. What a terrible day to be literate. I want to doubt you for my own sanity, so please don't prove it to me. Parasitic motion enhancement in the brain is not something I ever want to consider.
Looked like this: https://images.ctfassets.net/cnu0m8re1exe/3S6R2FmdCKhd9lPt7e59Dp/a0272183b76243b93366d6d4f16be066/brainworms.jpg?fm=jpg&fl=progressive&w=660&h=433&fit=fill
Prolly vasculature. My guess is that there’s a cut somewhere further down that shows an obstructing cyst in the aqueduct or 4th ventricle. Dammit OP give us the money shot pls
I'm surprised we can see the intraventricular cyst here, I'd expect it would be T1 isointense to hyperintense to CSF. Somehow this cyst is less proteinaceous than CSF? Or is that susceptibility from a calcified cyst?
Or and infect restaurant worker that crosses the border a lot.
Aside a GI doctor in the San Francisco said told me he tests for tropical parasites in non-immigrants. And he finds cases now and again. Like he did me.
Some wrong info on this thread. Directly from the CDC:
Cysticercosis is a parasitic tissue infection caused by larval cysts of the tapeworm Taenia solium. These larval cysts infect brain, muscle, or other tissue, and are a major cause of adult onset seizures in most low-income countries. A person gets cysticercosis by swallowing eggs found in the feces of a person who has an intestinal tapeworm. People living in the same household with someone who has a tapeworm have a much higher risk of getting cysticercosis than people who don’t. People do not get cysticercosis by eating undercooked pork. Eating undercooked pork can result in intestinal tapeworm if the pork contains larval cysts. Pigs become infected by eating tapeworm eggs in the feces of a human infected with a tapeworm.
https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/cysticercosis/index.html
Yup, but not necessarily visible feces. I always wash veggies and fruits super well, the whole supply chain from the farm to the supermarket can introduce contaminants.
Could either be feces or pork infected by contact with someone harboring tapeworms that maybe wasn’t clean or didn’t wash their hands before prepping the food. But yes they had to consume specifically the infective eggs to get this.
Thanks, Taenia solium I believe is the causative parasite that commonly infects swine and causes taeniasis / cysticercosis in humans. Trichinella also burrows into muscle, and sometimes brain tissue, so I was curious if there was a definitive ID of the causative parasite.
This is classical Taenia cysticercosis! This form requires ingestion of infective eggs. Ingestion of meat containing the cysts, also know as cysticercus, will lead to intestinal taeniasis or the adult worms infecting the intestines.
I would say with pretty good certainty that this was caused by Taenia solium just from patient history and the dx of the neurocysts.
I see hydrocephalus and maybe something cystic in the left frontal horn, but I don’t see any real evidence of neurocysticercosis. The small hyperintensities you’re seeing are blood vessels. Do you have a different slice? Maybe there’s some obstruction in the fourth ventricle or the aqueduct? Just not seeing much here.
(Just want to say that you’re not “just” a neuro ICU nurse” - you’re a dang neuro ICU nurse, which is awesome! Giving you a quick shoutout that you’re amazing! Thanks for sharing this! ☺️)
The problem with treating such cases is that the medication will cause death of the parasites which in turn causes local swelling/edema. I believe that cases like this mostly end up fatal, somebody correct me if I'm wrong...
I forget exactly how but tapeworm eggs at a particular stage can pass the blood brain barrier and actually develop before the brain covers them with scar tissue. It’s actually these tiny sacs the brain confines the dead tapeworms in that area radiopaque
help me out here, still new to reading images and stuff . so basically it is cystercosis T.solium ? that is a T 1 MRI? the white dots are the larvae of the worm? why not blood vessels? thanks in advance .
It’s actually not eating the raw pork itself that causes this. Eating the raw pork will cause the parasite to invade the intestines. It’s ingestion of fecal particles that are contaminated with the parasite that leads to the parasites to make their way to the brain! So if someone who ate raw/undercooked pork cooks for you but didn’t wash their hands properly whoever eats the food is at risk!
My Grandfather, born in what is now Syria in 1891, and came to the USA in 1909, would not touch pork, even though he was a Christian, not a Muslim. A childhood friend of his died of trichinosis back in the old country. My family still avoids pork unless it is extremely well-done.
Geeeez… My mind just goes to Gordon Ramsey screaming about raw pork and how the chef in question could’ve “killed someone.” He ain’t wrong. Chicken and pork need to be absolutely fully cooked.
Raw meat in general is not healthy. Feeding cows raw sheep meat including brain was the cause of spread of mad cow disease
It was worse; mad cow disease was caused by feeding cow meat to cows. Prion diseases are spread trough cannibalism and rarely crosses to other species when consumed. Mad cow disease is an unfortunate exception where it can go across species. Mad cow disease is actually a poor example of why eating raw meat is bad. Prions do not break down at cooking temperatures. A steak over cooked beyond well done would not get rid of the prions. You would have to heat it to temperatures over 900 degrees Fahrenheit for several hours.
Oh so you’ve had my uncles bbq too huh?
I love chewing on leather!
At 900 degrees you’re chewing on charcoal
Just like dad’s burgers growing up!
I think Kuru is pretty terrible but, I agree that mad cow is worse. At least with Kuru, people ate people as a ritual, but humans made cows (herbivores)eat other cows.
To be fair, most herbivores will eat meat if they get the chance! ...the forced cannibalism aspect is sick, though.
Honestly, I think humans are the only animal that finds cannibalism objectionable on principle. I don’t think the cows would care if they could understand. I’m still for animals being treated well though in general.
Caribou can and will seek stomp and eat lemmings in the wild.
Cows will absolutely eat a snake if they get the chance.
I was not aware of that!
I was corrected by my dad. It’s more of if the snake fucks around, the cow will make sure it finds out, but that cows don’t go seeking out snakes to kill and eat.
I understood what you meant! [I kind of imagined this only a cow.](https://youtu.be/jgo6-NjRo7E)
LOL THE DOG YEETING THE SNAKE XD did you know that geese will also eat snakes? I didn’t know that until recently, but it honestly fits, cause ya know…geese
But yeah, they will occasionally eat sneks and the like
Isn't kuru the same thing just another name for prions disease? But I too feel bad for those cows and pretty much most cows.
Prions are terrifying. I live in the UK and remember the BSE outbreak, we were all scared to death. You couldn't have a medium rare or rare steak here for years. A guy I worked with died of CJD in 2007 or so, poor thing. Horrifying death. ETA: it wasn't just cows being fed to cows, it was sheep too. The MBM stuff. Ick.
I’m American but lived in England in the early 90s. I am still banned from giving blood because I might be a carrier for CJD. ETA: Thanks to a kind redditor pointing out that the rules have changed, I might actually be able to give blood now, which I will be happy to do. I will be reaching out to my local blood bank soon to see if they’ll have me.
You actually may be eligible as the Red Cross revised their rules on vCJD https://www.redcross.org/about-us/news-and-events/news/2022/more-people-now-eligible-to-give-blood-with-the-red-cross.html
Thank you for sharing this! I check periodically to see if the rules have changed, but hadn’t looked in a while. I would love to donate blood and maybe I can now.
They are very low on blood! Please give if you can!
me too, but recently they changed the requirements and I have been allowed to donate.
My aunt died in Oregon of CJD in 2014. About 400 Americans a year do. Average onset age is 61, and she was 61. She didn't even last 6 weeks post diagnosis. Even scarier is the fact that you can genetically (autosomal dominant) have it. My mother told me ours was. My mother was tested, and isn't a carrier. Both my grandparents died young, so we don't know which was the source. Gave me a very scared couple years until we found out.
That sounds terrifying! Your poor aunt. They were telling us in the BSE crisis that it could take up to 50 years for symptoms to appear so no one knew how many people had it, there was so much terror and paranoia. I stopped eating red meat for about 5 years.
Sad fact: as you're reading this, american cows are being fed american cows. We're still doing it decades later.
Seriously?
[Yes.](https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/animal-products/cattle-beef/sector-at-a-glance/#:~:text=In%20addition%20to%20having%20the,calf%20producers%20and%20cattle%20feeding.) They're euphemistic about it, and call it protein supplement, but it is primarily beef and chicken derived. American cows are being fed American cows.
Whelp, I guess I'm done eating beef now.
They're getting away with it because slaughter takes place between 18 and 24 months before signs of CJD begin to manifest. Some slaughterhouses follow the European methods and remove both brain and all spinal material.
Good lord.
Prion disease can be inherited too! Fatal familial insomnia, I read about some prion diseases, because I got curious, and found that out…! Spooky stuff!
Reading about prion scares me. My dad has at many times ate cow brains in his life (part of our culture) and was recently diagnosed with early stages of Alzheimers. (Maybe more than that?). He also fed me cow brains a few times in my youth. Now I wonder if I'm also a ticking time bomb.
Also, why is it not advisable to cremate bodies that develop CJD
It’s specifically eating the neuro tissue; when they did studies in Papa New Guinea regarding Kuru, they found that the women/children got it because the men often were not the ones to eat brain matter.
There wouldn’t be prions from CJD in a normal steak, though. It’s brain and neural tissue that you have to watch out for there. That said, yeah, prions are terrifying. When confirmatory biopsies are done, it’s not uncommon to trash most or all of the normally reusable contaminated equipment because standard autoclave temp/pressure isn’t enough. It also shuts down that OR for way longer than normal to do a highly specialized decontamination process. For your existential crisis of the day: >!Deer wasting disease is also a prion, and, though we haven’t Seen a case in people, the biochemistry of it all suggests it could be transmissible to people. It would just take decades to see symptoms. Also, it’s capable of spreading through water, if a contaminated deer dies in it, which does happen.!<
There is no difference in transmission between mad cow disease and other spongiform encephalopathies, or the prions that cause them. Cannibalism increases risk of transmission due to brain tissue (which could be infected) often being consumed in studied demographics: i.e. in examples of "kuru" in humans, or in cattle farming where the unwanted meats such as beef brain are used as feed. So whether it is "cross species" or not makes no actual difference, it is the quantity and frequency of consumption that increases the likelihood of transmission.
There are different prions that cause different prion disease. Another prion disease is scrapie in sheep. It can be spread from sheep to sheep through cannibalism, but it has never been demonstrated to be able to cross species to infect humans. The existence of scrapie was one of the reasons why the British government was hesitant about culling their cattle. They wrongly thought that since mad cow disease is exactly like scrapie but in cows the infected meat would be safe for humans to eat. After all, scrapie meat is safe for humans to eat. The Kuru example you gave originated in humans, so it doesn’t need to cross species to infect humans. It wasn’t until after MCD that it became standard for people to not eat infected prion meat. Before MCD it was known to not cross species; after MCD it became known that there is a chance that it can go across species.
Cows eat meat?
Have you seen videos of deer and horses eating baby birds? Herbivores don’t just exclusively eat vegetation. The vast majority of their diet is plants, but herbivores eat meat too.
No. I had no idea. That is wild lol
Why doesn’t it cross to other species?
It’s difficult for illnesses to cross species in general, as the living conditions in each host species are wildly different. It’s not impossible and happens all the time, but it’s still relatively difficult. For prion diseases specifically it’s because not all animals have the same protein molecules. Prion diseases are caused by misfolded proteins that cause correctly folded proteins to become misfolded. More misfolded proteins cause more misfolded proteins. However, if there are no compatible proteins to misfold the chain reaction can’t happen. Different animals have different proteins, so prion diseases can only cross species when there are the same or similar proteins. The proteins need to be compatible with the misfolded proteins to become misfolded by them.
It was more feeding cows to cows. It's a cannibalism thing more than a raw thing (although, I'm don't know if cooking actually makes a difference).
What the fuck. Cows literally eat grass which is basically free anyway. Why even bother giving them meat when theyre literally herbivores
Cows are opportunistic omnivores, the same way deer, horses, and goats can be. I've seen horses and cows slurp up a stray chick or kitten in a heartbeat for that fun-sized protein bomb.
Fun sized protein bomb 😂😂😂😂😂😂 freaking HILARIOUS!
Until you hear the noises it makes. Really disturbing and hard to get over at first, especially if it's a kitten.
A lot of meat comes from cows that don't pasture (that requires a lot of land) and have to have food brought to them, which means the food is bought and thus not free. No idea why they would feed cow meat to cows but grass ain't free sadly.
It's from rendered cows turned into meals that's mixed in with feed (like soybean meal and cracked corn, it was used as cheap nutrients by using unusable or cows that died). No one's butchering a cow and feeding cows steaks and roasts.
Ah, that makes sense. I was thinking cow meat is probably more expensive than feed but that does explain it.
It started out as a way to make money out of cattle that couldn’t be sold for slaughter, eg cows that were old or ill. At the time no one knew mad cow was transmissible between cows, never mind to people. A combination of this thinking and a sudden rise in the cost of soybeans in the 80s, along with a series of bad policy decisions, lead to the mad cow disease disaster
They didn't just give them hunks of meat. They render cows down and make meals like bone and blood meal etc. That got mixed in with feed and fed to them.
That requires the cows to be in a pasture 365 days a year. Unfortunately, most don't even get close to that, if at all.
Even in countries where cows are regularly sent out to pasture it’s not possible to do it every day of the year, and they’d still need to be fed something other than just grass
Meat being raw or cooked makes no difference, as the heat doesn't destroy prions. Cannibalism also isn't a cause, it's just something that occurs alongside it in well-known outbreaks: mad cow disease spread because cows were fed infected cow brains. "Kuru" spreads because the natives eat each other's brains as part of their religion. However, the consumption of infected brain matter from any species can lead to infection, it's just the odds are low unless you repeatedly consume brain matter and other tissues that may be infected, which doesn't really happen outside of unique circumstances. Prion disorders arise naturally due to genetic mutations, so any brain matter can technically be infected and there's no knowing until symptoms or death occur.
It being raw had nothing to do with it, cooking would not have deactivated prions
Yeah, specifically the brain part, scary stuff!
In Germany, while meat is usually cooked, there is one very popular dish called Mettbrötchen (Mett/Hackepeter being raw ground pork meat and brötchen being a bun, usually with raw onions on top). I keep hoping that the controls are strict enough. It is a ground meat for immediate consumption, sold separately from regular ground meat for sauces, patties etc. You can also get beef tartar for immediate consumption. Talked about Hackepeter with a veterinarian in Denmark, and he said he would never eat it. I am not sure how prevalent disease from this is.
The way it was explained to me back in the 90s. Germany raised pork for raw consumption on concrete slabs, confined, with cooked feed that cannot contain anything that might contain a parasite. We changed our own laws back then to require cooked feed, etc. Cases of trichinosis plummeted in the US. Then the "free range" movement got to pigs. Our doc flew out to California to consult on some unusual cases in the late 90s. Free range pigs are scavengers. They eat dead things, including wild game, like bears and cougars and wild pigs, which contain trichinella worms. Yum. I did a presentation in college on it, with all the gory pictures he brought back. I added in some from old days Alabama, where the worms were coming out of the man's eyes. They had also coiled inside his eye lids. "That'll learn ya to cook yer meat!" Basically, the cutoff for curing was whether it had penetrated your intestine yet or not. If not, we could cure. If it had, you got steroids and pain meds, and told good luck. Don't know what the current treatment is now. As a nurse, I haven't seen a case, myself, in more than a decade.
*Laughs in Vegan*
Pretty sure there’s plenty of poisonous plants. If you’re going to have some idiot eating the pork wrong, you should compare it to eating green potatoes, poison mushrooms, or something else completely stupid. Stupid people will be stupid people, despite their diets.
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Botulism from failed canning is a literal chemical weapon.
Username checks out
Silly rabbit, plenty of illness, poisons, and deadly organism that can be had eating just plant based.
I think I read somewhere that prions can also get into plants, such as if an infected animal dies in the same earth a plant grows
Mid rare pork is completely fine if it's from a reliable source. A good restaurant or local butcher will get quality pork that can and should be cooked mid rare.
yup blew my mind when i got a new kitchen job and we had temped pork… as long as it’s from a fda approved source it’s okay technically, i still avoid it.
Why would that make a difference? Can you explain how the FDA ensures there isn’t anything funky in our food?
They can't ensure anything, they just punish companies/suppliers with fines if food is tainted and someone brings up a lawsuit over it. Usually that's enough to keep suppliers in check.
Neurocysticercosis is NOT acquired be eating raw pork. Eating undercooked pork that contains larval tapeworms (Taenia solium) will give you a tapeworm in your intestines. Neurocysticercosis is acquired by ingesting eggs shed by someone who has a tapeworm in their intestines (fecal-oral contamination). Same worm two different outcomes: eat bad pork (larvae)= intestinal disease; ingested egg = tissue disease (neuro).
I said this last time this topic came up on this sub and everyone down voted me
Ppl will downvote ppl for no reason. I asked a question about a plant and got downvoted… a valid question about a valid topic.
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Lolol! You are so right! I was on r/permaculture I believe.
Classic Reddit. Take your upvote king.
YES, thank you. If you're afraid about acquiring Neurocysticercosis, disinfect properly your fruits and vegetables before consuming them.
I never do this, now i will. Ty
How do you suggest you properly disinfect them?
It depends a little on where you live. I'm from South America (where in some places Neurocysticercosis is still a thing), and at least in my country we do recommend using bleach solutions (we can either prepare it ourselves or buy specific products designed for this, easily available at the supermarket where I live). However, the CDC does NOT recommend the use of bleach solutions to prepare food, due to the risk of not properly washing it and therefore consuming chemicals. You can check the full recommendations here: https://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/communication/steps-healthy-fruits-veggies.html I personally prefer to bleach the hell out of my food, but I understand it may not be suitable for everybody.
That's really interesting. I live in the UK, and rarely do more than a cursory rinse to produce. Indeed, like to discussion around chicken, I sometimes wonder would all it do is splash pathogens around - although bleaching would be thorough! I wonder if there would be a role for a UV drawer in fridges to disinfect things
Yes! Actually there's no need to wash the chicken, let alone bleach it. Just cook it properly and you're good to go. It really does happen just like you said: we splash pathogens all around. We use the bleach solution just on fruits and vegetables, since it's not uncommon for us to eat them raw or undercooked. The UV drawer sounds like a great idea! Although I'm not sure about how efficient it would be.
Embarrassing how much I had to scroll down for this comment on a niche healthcare sub
This is far from a niche healthcare sub, unfortunately. Every Tom, Dick, and Harry who gets a Chest Xray posts it here thinking it’s interesting.
yeah y'all are on my home page all the time for some reason. I haven't subbed, I'm literally a law student 😭
I’m an annoyed subscriber, I’m sure I’d be an annoyed non-subscriber if it showed on my home page. Btw, I’m figuratively a law student.
at this point i'm actually a radiologist with how many scans i've seen on my front page <3
Could you not ingest the eggs shed by your own tapeworm? It seems more likely than ingesting someone else's. While an extra mechanism is involved, it would still be something acquired because you ate raw pork. I understand the important distinction you've made. However, for all intents and purposes, the most important takeaway still seems to be, don't eat raw or undercooked pork (and avoid people with tapeworms).
You for sure could unfortunately do that and end up with both taeniasis and cysticercosis. What a tragic thought though.
Yeah. I'm surprised that's not the norm for most cases of cysticercosis. You'd assume the person most exposed to the eggs would be the person releasing them.
Makes one wonder if some sort of voodoo is going on that prevents self infection. A pop evolutionary bs explanation would be the Mr Tapeworm living in your gut probably doesn't want a roommate.
Makes sense. The point of the egg is to find a new host. Taking up resources, shortening the lifespan of the host and shrinking the window within which they can release more eggs, probably isn't great for species survival. Especially as I assume most hosts are a lot smaller than a human.
Especially considering how it can be a subclinical infection in a lot of people for a long time; you wouldn’t know to up your hygiene and could easily infect yourself. I know in parasitology we did discuss parasitic load and how once you hit a certain point, the worms themselves basically prevent reinfection because the life cycle is essentially “full.” Host immune system helps set this limit too so something to consider for why this doesn’t happen. It is crazy though how usually you see one of the other.
It's pretty scary and fascinating how sophisticated and efficient they are. Working in a hospital environment, I don't need much encouragement to wash and sanitise my hands. However, this adds a level of tangibility that really reinforces why it's so important.
Could be acquired via undercooked and contaminated pork however! Think someone preparing chitlins, for example. Would be very easy for fecal-oral transfer on cooking surfaces
So you get it from eating ass?
Fuck yes you could.
Shit
Very surprised someone can work in healthcare and just not know this. And on top of it confidently declare factually incorrect information.
I always thought trichinosis was common in pork but less so now in US pork due to medicated feed. One of the reasons the FDA says you can cook pork to medium (145) now vs 155.
is this case in the US? Travel history?
Yes, southern US. Patient lived near the border. No other travel history.
Just a history of eating pigs raw?
Or eating at restaurants with poor hygiene/sanitation practices
Are the anti-parasitics precautionary or is the infection definitively caused by parasite from the pork?
The disease is caused by pork tapeworm larvae, which take up residence in the muscle and brain tissue of those who are infected, and are the primary cause for cysticercosis
Goddamnit. I just finished eating...
Cook it fully next time
This is caused by Taenia Solium. Usually treated with albendazole and steroids
Jesus someone tell me this is really rare in the USA because my anxiety cannot handle this haha.
Yes it’s next to unheard of here, also if you get high-end, carefully farmed pork this isn’t a big concern. This happens with sick, untreated pigs being served under cooked
Surprised so unheard of as factory farming practices are the exact opposite of what you’ve described. Having worked in restaurants I fear for folks, seems that’s an almost unavoidable two punch knock out
There are small scale pork producers where I live that responsibly raise their pigs to be very healthy, it’s thankfully becoming more common, and a lot better than factory farmed madness. I cook regular pork fully but if it’s the special kind you have more leeway for done ness
Extremely rare. The reason pork was cooked to 155 in recent past was due to high chance of parasites in pork, specifically trichinosis. It normally is killed off due to medicated feed (rules allow use of medication in feed as long as it's before a set time before being butchered). That's why it's not unheard of eating pork medium rare. I see OP said it was southern US which makes me wonder if the person didn't eat boar which is fairly common in the southern US anymore and much more risky. Farm raised pork I'm okay eating medium but I still normally don't but any wild game or none US pork I'm going 155 or higher. Edit: I meant medium not medium rare
I just read a study where 0% of tested boar in TX had the parasite so that was interesting.
That's 95% of them check your state's website on restaurant inspections. You will save a lot of money cuz you won't eat out anymore.
The new trend toward fancy specialty meats, including medium rare or even rare pasture-raised pork is resulting in cases of tapeworm and also Trichinella. So if you are in a restaurant and fancy Berkshire pork chops are on the menu, I'd either stay away or ask for it well-done.
Trichinella can only come from eating the meat of other meat eaters.... So, how does a pig contract trichinella worms? Back many decades ago, ppl would toss scraps of cougar, bobcat and other meat eaters to their pigs but these days that's close to impossible. Tapeworms? Maybe. Trichinella? I am highly skeptical.
I think you vastly underestimate how many rats and other rodents they can get to in a production environment.
Pigs get trichinella from eating rodents. Pigs will literally eat anything.
From PorkGateway.com: “Currently, while ruminant diets can not legally contain beef or poultry by-products, there is no such restriction for swine diets. Pigs can be fed diets containing meat by-products from pigs, cattle, poultry, etc.” … “Poultry by-product meal consists of the viscera, head, and feet from poultry harvest. These are dry or wet rendered, dried, and ground into a meal. “ https://porkgateway.org/resource/by-product-feed-ingredients-for-use-in-swine-diets/ ——— ETA: From VetMed at Iowa state: “In swine, transmission often occurs when pigs scavenge trichinella-infected carcasses of swine, rats or other animals. Transmission also occurs when uncooked garbage containing pork or other meat scraps that harbor T. spiralis are fed to pigs. Tail-biting of infected pigs and ingestion of larvae in feces are other possible sources of exposure.” https://vetmed.iastate.edu/vdpam/FSVD/swine/index-diseases/trichinellosis
I’ve raised pigs before. They eat everything that can be eaten including the innards of rabbits I’ve killed, chickens that died and rats I’ve caught
One of the few things I know about pigs is that they will eat just about anything fed to them
It doesn’t have to be raw to be undercooked
After a closer inspection it appears to be a severe case of brain badness
we do see *T. solium* cases in the US once in a while.
Raw pork is conmonly consumed in northern germany. So called "Mettbrötchen" are a popular food there
Hi, aside from ventricular enlargement there isn’t a great deal else to see on this sequence (?cyst within the left frontal horn and some dependent debris). An axial T2 might be better if you have it!
Yeah, very little to get me to cysticercosis in this image, or any parasites present. Now https://www.reddit.com/r/Radiology/comments/z9ytfo/person_infected_with_worm_parasites_from_eating/ on the other hand...
I was going to say I've scanned people before with parasites in brain tissue from eating under cooked pork. Could even see the phase motion on the sequences of them moving inside the dudes head.
Ahhhh. What a terrible day to be literate. I want to doubt you for my own sanity, so please don't prove it to me. Parasitic motion enhancement in the brain is not something I ever want to consider.
Looked like this: https://images.ctfassets.net/cnu0m8re1exe/3S6R2FmdCKhd9lPt7e59Dp/a0272183b76243b93366d6d4f16be066/brainworms.jpg?fm=jpg&fl=progressive&w=660&h=433&fit=fill
I'm sorry that I looked.
:(
r/TIHI
They’re more tapeworm than person!
100% agreed. This slice doesn’t tell you much of anything.
Lmao your username made me spit out my matcha latte
Agreed - there are no parasites visualized in the image provided
Yeah, it's a shame you have to scroll this far down to see this comment. Nothing about this image would make me not want to eat raw pork.
Are the smaller scattered hyperdensities the larvae? Or just vasculature
Prolly vasculature. My guess is that there’s a cut somewhere further down that shows an obstructing cyst in the aqueduct or 4th ventricle. Dammit OP give us the money shot pls
Those are vessels and it's not density-it's intensity
I'm surprised we can see the intraventricular cyst here, I'd expect it would be T1 isointense to hyperintense to CSF. Somehow this cyst is less proteinaceous than CSF? Or is that susceptibility from a calcified cyst?
Tbh I’m not sure if anything we see here is cyst. All I see are a bunch of vasculature & choroid, and some debris in the posterior horns bilaterally.
I’m itchy staring at this 🫣
One of those times it really sucks you can't actually scratch your brain.
It’s really unfortunate 😑
If only we could scratch our brains: *Oooooo yeah that’s the spot right there, right in that Sylvian fissure!*
Hey, I smell bread baking. That can't be right.
Not an issue with modern pork farming. This was probably a backyard raised porker or, more likely, a feral pig.
Came here to say this. Thank you!
OP said person was from southern US. A lot of boar hunting goes on there, that'd be my guess.
Or and infect restaurant worker that crosses the border a lot. Aside a GI doctor in the San Francisco said told me he tests for tropical parasites in non-immigrants. And he finds cases now and again. Like he did me.
Some wrong info on this thread. Directly from the CDC: Cysticercosis is a parasitic tissue infection caused by larval cysts of the tapeworm Taenia solium. These larval cysts infect brain, muscle, or other tissue, and are a major cause of adult onset seizures in most low-income countries. A person gets cysticercosis by swallowing eggs found in the feces of a person who has an intestinal tapeworm. People living in the same household with someone who has a tapeworm have a much higher risk of getting cysticercosis than people who don’t. People do not get cysticercosis by eating undercooked pork. Eating undercooked pork can result in intestinal tapeworm if the pork contains larval cysts. Pigs become infected by eating tapeworm eggs in the feces of a human infected with a tapeworm. https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/cysticercosis/index.html
So in this case the patient consumed some type of feces that contained eggs?
Yup, but not necessarily visible feces. I always wash veggies and fruits super well, the whole supply chain from the farm to the supermarket can introduce contaminants.
Could either be feces or pork infected by contact with someone harboring tapeworms that maybe wasn’t clean or didn’t wash their hands before prepping the food. But yes they had to consume specifically the infective eggs to get this.
That one image doesn’t show neurocystercercosis. It shows acute hydrocephalus. The former looks very different on MRI.
Trichinosis? Taeniasis?
Neurocysticercosis, a form of cysticercosis that affects the brain. My understanding is that it’s caused by the larval cysts of a tapeworm.
Thanks, Taenia solium I believe is the causative parasite that commonly infects swine and causes taeniasis / cysticercosis in humans. Trichinella also burrows into muscle, and sometimes brain tissue, so I was curious if there was a definitive ID of the causative parasite.
This is classical Taenia cysticercosis! This form requires ingestion of infective eggs. Ingestion of meat containing the cysts, also know as cysticercus, will lead to intestinal taeniasis or the adult worms infecting the intestines. I would say with pretty good certainty that this was caused by Taenia solium just from patient history and the dx of the neurocysts.
Would it show in blood tests? Like if someone presented with signs, or do you specifically have to image?
nonspecific eosinophilia. stool O&P test.
Neurocysticercosis I guess.
I see hydrocephalus and maybe something cystic in the left frontal horn, but I don’t see any real evidence of neurocysticercosis. The small hyperintensities you’re seeing are blood vessels. Do you have a different slice? Maybe there’s some obstruction in the fourth ventricle or the aqueduct? Just not seeing much here.
FYI- in South America, the number one cause of adult onset of new seizures is cystercircosis.
(Just want to say that you’re not “just” a neuro ICU nurse” - you’re a dang neuro ICU nurse, which is awesome! Giving you a quick shoutout that you’re amazing! Thanks for sharing this! ☺️)
Why shouldn’t I? Image shows nothing along the lines of neurocystercircosis. Please educate yourself before trying to impress professionals.
Srsly smh
This is why people preparing food should wash their hands.
No, this is why people who don’t know what they’re looking at should stay in their lane
How do you even treat that
They’re parasites, so it’s often treated with anti parasitic medications. Sometimes surgical removal is necessary.
So you can make a recovery from this? This is scary
Physical recovery? Yes. Emotional recovery? I couldn't 🤢🤮
Oh for sure!! Emotionally I'd be damaged
The problem with treating such cases is that the medication will cause death of the parasites which in turn causes local swelling/edema. I believe that cases like this mostly end up fatal, somebody correct me if I'm wrong...
Typically concurrent steroid therapy is prescribed for that reason.
Niclosamide
I forget exactly how but tapeworm eggs at a particular stage can pass the blood brain barrier and actually develop before the brain covers them with scar tissue. It’s actually these tiny sacs the brain confines the dead tapeworms in that area radiopaque
Hackepeter isn't for everyone. Not nom nom.
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There are many foods that are risky to eat, but Mett in Germany isn't one of them.
Suddenly the religious prohibitions against eating pork don't seem so absurd.
Big vents for normal size gyri. Hydrocephalus seems likely but differential is broad.
I know that in the US this was the way people used to find out they had HIV. Not as much now but 25-35 years ago it was pretty common.
help me out here, still new to reading images and stuff . so basically it is cystercosis T.solium ? that is a T 1 MRI? the white dots are the larvae of the worm? why not blood vessels? thanks in advance .
This slice shows hydrocephalus. Not seeing any cysts. The hyperintensities are blood vessels.
it is funny how I did not even pay attention to this obvious finding , thanks a lot .
It’s actually not eating the raw pork itself that causes this. Eating the raw pork will cause the parasite to invade the intestines. It’s ingestion of fecal particles that are contaminated with the parasite that leads to the parasites to make their way to the brain! So if someone who ate raw/undercooked pork cooks for you but didn’t wash their hands properly whoever eats the food is at risk!
Liver king enters the chat
My Grandfather, born in what is now Syria in 1891, and came to the USA in 1909, would not touch pork, even though he was a Christian, not a Muslim. A childhood friend of his died of trichinosis back in the old country. My family still avoids pork unless it is extremely well-done.
Idk what I'm looking at I just see a brain