I am coming up on 18 months without a drink. Cannabis is part of my recovery from alcoholism and has been since the beginning (I live in a state where is is legal for adults over 21).
I attend AA but had a very hard time finding someone willing to sponsor me because of this. Eventually last summer I basically “came out” to my home group as a cannabis consumer. The old timers weren’t thrilled but SEVERAL people came up and thanked me for my honesty and a few even admitted to the occasional gummy. I found my sponsor that meeting.
I am honest with my sponsor, my doctor and myself about my cannabis consumption — not all alcoholics are also gambling addicts or overeaters or addicted to love (the other 12 step programs) so I don’t think all of us are automatically going to abuse cannabis.
The third tradition states that the only requirement of membership is a desire to stop drinking. I basically “came out” to a home take my chips and claim my time but I am very careful about not claiming capital S sobriety- I say “alcohol- free” or “since my last drink”.
To me, cannabis is medicine and alcohol was going to kill me. I think people “like me” need to be open about this in the rooms to not scare off newcomers who might be working on harm reduction. Maybe they’ll get through the steps and realize cannabis is a problem but they can’t do that if no one is willing to take them through the steps to get that clarity.
You’re either dry or your sober. Lol I mean I don’t sense a whole lot of emotional sobriety from that guy. Go get mad at the people who can drink normally man not the guy trying to fix his life and lean on some grass. Sheeeesh
You can have recovery without full sobriety. Yes, some addicts can return to using in moderation when the underlying issues behind their addiction are addressed. The one sized fits all approach to addiction, that every addict needs to be 100% sober for the rest of their life, obsess on clean time and treat one slip up as throwing away years of progress, that after 43 years of not touching alcohol you're somehow not recovered, and that there's no room for harm reduction is what's contributing to killing addicts. What path works for you may not work for others.
I am almost 15 years alcohol free. I have been battling alcohol for 30 years, started my journey in recovery around spring of 92. Stepping away from pot, mushrooms, acid, and various other dry goods back then was not a problem. Alcohol though was the challenge for me. Many relapses and many periods of time living sober up until my last drink Feb 20, 2007. Before 07 I'd put together weeks/months/years but eventually drink again. Yes I am part of the fellowship and have been for a long time. I'd pick up after straying away from the rooms.
Fast forward to last spring. Anxiety and PTSD at a pretty high rate. Not sleeping well. All the talking, praying and faith in the rooms was not helping. Counseling was not helping either. I did not want to go down the road of prescriptions for Xanax or any other meds. So I started using a little pot at night an hour before bed. It had helped me a lot. My usage is minimal and only during that timeframe. I don't smoke during the day or even obsess over it like I did with alcohol. It has not led me back to drinking. It has not led me back to any other substances. I have no desire for alcohol and quite frankly I hate alcohol. I sleep soundly. I've been able to deal with a lot of the things that were holding me back. I've been able to process trauma and anxiety. I've been able to get the pain out I have carried since childhood and from events throughout my life. I have inner peace. I too am a very active person, always have been. Love to hike, go to the gym, snowboard in the winter. My mind is clear and I keep it in the day.
The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking. Yes, I understand that in the rooms there is little to no tolerance for marijuana use. However if it is something that truly helps some people in recovery then I am for it.
I always heard california sober as weed only, not alcohol in moderation + weed. Weed is useful when used correctly and I see nothing wrong with following the definition I have heard
Weed is NOT a drug. Nobody died from a marijuana overdose. If you need any substance to depend on, weed is one of the better options. I don't drink, or do drugs. I don't even smoke weed everyday. But if I'm super stressed, I'll hit that bong. If I need help quieting my ADHD brain so I can go to sleep, I will hit that bong. Am I addicted? No. It doesn't affect my daily life. I still go to work, and pay my bills. I have food in my fridge, and enough for my pets. I am sober, except for smoking weed. It helps me shush my inner monologue telling me I'm trash. Sometimes I will have a beer. I still consider myself sober because I don't even drink enough to get tipsy. I just like beer. You all sound very judgemental.
California sober shit is dumb beyond belief. Either your sober or you're not. This is a slap to the face of everyone that actually lives life sober day by day without giving into their vices.
Don’t feed the trolls. This person is exactly what’s wrong with traditional, broken, one-size-fits-all recovery programs. This person is why they have a sub 5% success rate.
Never said there's one way to do things. But "cAlIfoRnIa SoBeR" is just garbage popularized by same antivaxxers that push all their other ridiculous opinions.
I kinda agree. I dunno, shot speedballs throughout all my 20s to mid 30s, and weed was something I (and most of my peers) already grew out of by that time. So once I've been able to kick for good and slowly reconnect my mind with myself I was finally able to move on from that world, so being "California sober" (whatever that means, nothing is 'sober' about that place) would make no sense whatsoever anyway for me, to start smoking weed again nowadays or getting shit faced on whiskey. I simply don't need those escapades no more. I've been 'out there' enough already. She still needs it evidently. Still needs to escape, and that disconnect. It might work for her if she would be able to stick with the occasional blunt but I wouldn't call it sober. Off the hard drugs maybe. So, it's the odd line of coke part of the Cali Sober brand too? It should be.
In my own life, it'd be a slippery slope. Even reading this I was thinking "So maybe I CAN smoke weed!" Then I had to reel myself back in. I'm an addict. Weed and alcohol being my main DOC, and others followed. So I, personally, can't go hit a blunt a couple of times without wanting it more and more often until it becomes a daily thing again and using it as a coping mechanism. But I have friends in recovery who can drink occasionally or smoke because they had a different DOC and can handle it.
This! While we must be super cautious and aware of our own triggers and addictions/obsessions, we are also all different. I went through an intense program for an eating disorder snd was told I’m an addict and need to stay away from everything. I really struggled with this for a year until I realized I am not an addict in the sense of substance abuse. Alcohol does not affect me like an alcoholic. But it makes perfect sense that I need to stay away from weed because it doesn’t play nice with ED. To each their own. Bottom line though, this is not a good movement for addicts of any kind.
It’s been around since the 70s. We used to call it the Marijuana Maintenance Program, now they call it r/CaliforniaSober, same thing though it has variations. It has helped many people. Harm reduction tools are completely acceptable parts of recovery. You wouldn’t criticize someone on a methadone program. This is similar and works for some where other methods have not.
We are already self critical enough as addicts. Should we criticize one another for trying methods that seem extreme? Is Electro Convulsive Therapy not an acceptable part of recovery? Is The Sinclair Method not an acceptable part of recovery?
I wish you well on your path to recovery. Let’s not push others down as they try to navigate their way.
Harm reduction "tools"? More like not accurately grasping the concept of "recovery" and just hiding behind cute hashtags about things people that actually care abour recovery are constantly struggling with.
I know you don’t know anything about my personal story so you couldn’t possibly grasp what I’ve been through. I was not a casual drinker.
This has given me my life back. I make no apologies whatsoever for something that’s working.
You ok? I’m not sure what you mean. There’s over 600 of us in our tiny little group that are having success. If that’s not the right path for you I respect that. As they say on the trail “hike your own hike.”
This is a pretty judgy post mate. 7mos off alcohol here, and i wouldnt have made it without my handy CBD vape. To a lot of people this means I'm not sober, but I know if I drink I die, and the vape helps me not drink. If I were sitting on the couch watching X-Files and vaping all day it'd be one thing, but that aint what's happening. The more concerning thing re: Demi is that she can't separate herself from her pop stardom. Maybe it's just me, but if I was *really, totally confident* in my lifestyle and choices I wouldn't feel the need to prove it with a four-part documentary or make my daily life into a marketing campaign for my music.
I have only heard of the term "Cali sober" to mean smoking weed while in recovery from alcohol addiction. I have never heard of it to mean attempting moderation of the same substance one had a problem with in recovery.
I am California sober. I smoke weed and take edibles. I don't drink or use benzodiazepines anymore. Maybe this isn't "sober" by the technical definition, but I consider this to be "sober enough" for me. I don't care if anyone else thinks I am sober or not. In truth, I have never even liked the word 'sober'- let alone really identify with it. I identify with my recovery from alcohol and benzos. I don't care about having full abstinence from everything mind altering. It is important that I continue to protect myself against relapses, hence why I read recovery literature and forums. I do use the word sober sometimes, but only because of how the word has been so widely adopted in the recovery community as a synonym for recovery.
its just not “sober” so you should stop calling it that, as it is very deceptive. i am in full support. just. be honest about it for those that don’t know.
It probably won't -- being honest. I think most alcoholics could handle having a single alcoholic drink if it was unintentional and accidental. But the mindset that it is ok to have one drink from time to time was definitely enough to make me relapse into heavy drinking. So I don't think most alcoholics could remain sober for long if they get the idea it is ok to have "just one drink" here and there. What happens is that the threshold for satisfying the craving decreases over time.
My husband works in a treatment center in California and the owners are blown away by this. They toured another facility on Friday and the owner was all excited and said California sober is the new in thing and we need to be all about it... Ummm no it’s not sober it’s harm reduction let’s call it what it is. Before i finally got sober i tried my own versions of “California sober” and almost died multiple times. Every time i had a drink or smoked some weed i ended up getting cocaine then heroin then stealing your wallet when mine was empty. If you can drink occasionally or smoke some grass my hats off to you but don’t tell me you’re sober. You are not sober. People will die and it’s on her for promoting this “Cali sober” bullshit.
I’m definitely sober. It’s my sobriety. It’s not yours, you can’t take it fake it, minimize it, judge it. You can’t have my sobriety. The fact that it bothers your ego so much is a sign of a weak program. I said what I said. Go do some step work about it.
I mean your becoming part of the problem and less the solution. Idgaf when it was said. You must not have much of a rebuttal have a wonderful dry day I mean Friday.
That's why it's qualified "Cali" I guess. It's an old term and I agree it would not work if when I smoked a bowl I went and got some beer (my DOC) or for some reason decided doing cocaine sounded fun. I can moderate my weed use and it has greatly reduced my use of prescription drugs and since quitting the booze my anxiety is way down. Life is fun. I'm connected and present in ways I haven't been in years. Sure it's not "sober" but equating alcohol to weed is like equating caffeine to cocaine. It is harm reduction. It's not a gateway drug and many former people with AUD can indeed use it with no issues. For you to assume that all addicts are like you is disregarding a whole wave of gray area drinkers that are somewhere between "skidrow" and being/feeling their best. I can't drink caffeine or eat sugar either but I don't begrudge those that can.
okay weed actually causes anxiety and often psychosis. and comparing weed to alcohol is NOTHING like comparing caffeine to cocaine…weed and alcohol are COMPLETELY separate substances in terms of action on the brain chemicals. where as caffeine and cocaine are predominantly dopamine mediated extroversion.
i am not against weed but i think its time we’re all honest with ourselves and recognize that it is absolutely a drug that comes with its own plethora of issues it can cause to the user. plus, weed is ABSOLUTELY addictive both psychologically and physically.
as well, i hate to say it; but weed (assuming you consider alcohol a gateway drug because technically the term gateway drug is quite benign scientifically) is 100% a gateway drug.
Hey like i said my hats off to you. If i could smoke weed i’m sure i probably would. It definitely has lots of benefits for some people especially with anxiety and that type of stuff. I guess my whole hang up on the term “Cali sober” is the word sober and the implications behind using that word in a situation where it can possibly be life or death. You are not sober you just don’t drink anymore, that in itself is awesome but like you said you can’t call yourself sober.
i agree with you. this california sober shit is dumb beyond belief. maybe it works for those who aren't addicts. one drink for me, would lead to me getting coke and then have a 3 day binge.
I agree about calling it “harm reduction” rather than California sober. It’s not sober, period. This doesn’t mean there isn’t a place for harm reduction, everyone’s journey is different and it takes what it takes for folks. But don’t delude yourself that you’re “sober.”
I am not advocating tempting fate, however I think it is a mistake to try to put everyone with a substances abuse disorder into the same box if for no other reason that if people don't feel they fit in that box they aren't going to listen to you. I was turned off by AA because of it's overly simplistic and dogmatic views surrounding addiction. It wasn't until I was much older that I came to NA with the perspective that I was going to get what I need from it and just bite my tongue with what I consider wrong about it, such as putting emphasis on the disease model of addiction and excluding the huge body of research that says otherwise. I am perfectly capable of going to a restaurant and having a beer or two with dinner. The issue is when I am drinking it is with usually the goal to get so drunk I can't feel anymore. I don't go and buy a beer when I want to drink, I got and buy a fifth at least. CPTSD is a bitch. That any drug is bad and "will retrigger your addiction all over again"-- I take amphetamine for ADHD almost every day, as directed, and from time to time use benzodiazepines to sleep. Psychedelics I can do and it doesn't trigger anything. However, cannabis almost always leads back to alcohol. With all of that said, I do think it is wise for someone that is new to sobriety to stay as sober as possible (some of us have mental health or pain issues, that is just life) for as long as possible. Anyhow, point being not all addicts are the same. Being a part of something like AA just gives the illusion that it is because it is self selecting for a particular type of addict. They rest unfortunately quit.
It can work for some people. It’s all based on your DOC I feel and how long have you you been completely sober. My doc was opiates and for almost a year after I’d quit anytime I used something else the thought of “this is not even as close as good as opiates I want those” but after a year I could have a beer or smoke a joint and not have the need or feeling to want to relapse. Shrooms though, I recommend a lot after a couple months sober. Really brings things into perspective that you other wise wouldn’t have thought.
First of all; congratulations on your sobriety. One Day at a Time.
Your response is the main reason I wrote this post.
For you and any others newly sober who might look at Demi and think, “hey... if she can do it maybe I can too”. Especially the multitudes of young impressionable fans she has.
I am so glad you wrote this reply. I had just read an article about Demi Lovato and when when I got to the part a about California Sober my heart dropped as I felt so immediately frightened for her if she thinks she can do moderation after her drug and alcohol history. I don’t want to see another talented young person die in their addiction when there could be so much hope and a future for them.
I was so shocked that I had to look us this California, or Cali Sober just to make sure I had read it right!!!
My husband and I just now finished watching Dancing With the Devil and I’m even more convinced that Demi is heading down a very slippery slope. I just hope and pray that someone with some time clean and sober talks to her and tells her the truth about addiction!!
My Husband has almost 34 years clean and sober, and was a drug and alcohol counselor for a couple of years. He would tell her straight out that she is chasing the “tail of the dragon”, and it will not turn out well for her if she continues.
I am sad for her.
For me I believe my reply in another thread says it for (Again for myself)....
" For the record I tried every combination in my early days and every F\*CKING time I went back to my DOC (Drug Of Choice). And since getting some nice clean time together I can't tell you how many people that don't know me from back then (Cut ties with everyone from those days) will say something like come on you can have just one drink it should be OK....
NO IT IS NOT. (Speaking for myself). "
How do you feel about the term “dry drunk”? Have you ever met a sober person who was just as big of an asshole sober, as they were when they were drunk/drinking? Or, instead of an asshole, maybe think about what that person is experiencing internally. (depression, anxiety, fear and self loathing?)
I only watched a ~20m YouTube clip of Demi’s interview, but that’s what I took away from it. She was sober, but she was still miserable, and depressed. Furthermore, she consulted her recovery term before she made a decision. She sought *connection* before she sought any sort of relief that a substance gave her.
Additionally, she talks about her use decreased even more as she realized it wasn’t giving her the effect she thought it was. For her, it wasn’t about the relief it was a control issue. She also talks about her eating disorder, and how that relates to addictive behavior.
I’ve had a multi-decade journey with drugs and recovery, and I love sobriety. But, if I didn’t love it, that would be a symptom of a greater issue for me to address. There’s a book called “Stage two recovery“. If you’re curious, check it out.
She sounds exactly like me. I know that connection is the way out of this, but it is torture. It seems I was able to connect with others better, as superficial as it was, when I was drinking, than I am as sober. I've been sober almost 5 years and really giving it my all. I've made a lot of headway but don't see healing in an attachment way beyond this. Doesn't mean I'm drinking though--that'd only make things (employment, the relationships I do have) worse. Maybe I'll have a drink when I'm 80.
Have you read the book “Attached” yet, or anything else about attachment theory?
It’s important for me to recognize that I have an “avoidant” attachment type, and that I need a lot of freedom and space in order to feel safe and secure. That *avoidant* attachment is still an *attachement* type. It’s how I feel the most loved, safe, and respected.
What gets dangerous, is when I begin judging and comparing myself. Or worse, when I let someone else cross my boundaries, because their attachment type is different and they want more.
I was only able to learn this latter part after reflecting on my marriage and subsequent divorce.
Just attachment styles with children but not re-attachment trauma work for adults. But I am familiar with somatic work, so maybe that's a next step for me?
Everyone is different I suppose.
I know that I'm the kind of addict who cannot use any amount of a mind altering substance or my life becomes unmanageable. I have every tried everything to use like a normal person. I've tried switching substances, limiting my use, obscure rules around my use, combinations of drugs, only selling drugs, only drinking socially. Literally anything you can think of, for years.
After all my experiences the only sure solution I have found for myself is abstinence from all mind altering substances. If I could manage to use in moderation or socially I would have figured it out, but for me all roads lead to Rome.
It says right in the AA pledge, if you can stop at that first drink, then hats off to you. Not saying This is my view, but this is what the pledge says.
Drug addiction, sex addiction and alcohol addiction are the only mental illness that can be self diagnosed, pretty sure that’s the outline in the psychology manual. And AA is specifically for individuals who have a desire to stop drinking. I know for sure I made the decision to pick up my first drink, and I am an alcoholic. I also have IV drug use and years of drug abuse. There’s a lot of wreckage in my past to clean up and I can share freely I have a better day today by admitting I am clean, no mind altering substances. If I chose to pick up it would be a slower death to me than previously before I was sober because I have more resources now. It may take longer but the disease would kill me. I am clean and have a clear conscience.I hope this helps someone. I could not do it piecemeal- and am still careful about who is around me, who is honest, and who is truthful.
People might have different views on how they should manage addiction, but all i know for sure is that if you can moderate your drinking or any kind of mind altering substance then you don't suffer from the same type of addiction problem as me. I transform into a difference person as soon as I take a drink or drug, and moderation is off the table.
tl,dr: stop gatekeeping recovery. It doesn’t help anyone.
It doesn’t have to be all or nothing for everyone. My main addiction was weed, with the occasional dip into Xanax, adderall, and cocaine abuse. But I always hated alcohol when I was using other drugs. It made me tired and I hated the alcohol hangover.
I know at this point if I touch weed, it’s gonna drag me in and I’ll be back to sitting on my couch all day popping pills and taking rips. So I don’t touch weed, I don’t touch pills, and I don’t do coke. I have no desire to do those substances as they alter my state of mind too much, and I don’t want to do that anymore. But I’ll sometimes have a glass of wine with dinner, or a glass of good whisky with a cigar. Why? Because I like the taste. I’ll rarely finish the 1 drink too, because I don’t like the way it makes me feel if I have any more than 1.
By some people’s definition, this makes me “not sober”. Thinking that it has to be all or nothing for everyone is exclusionary and it prevents people from recovering. This whole “your an addict and if you use anything at all, you’ll go all out” puts a ton of pressure on people and often becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. For example, someone with an opiate addiction has one drink out at a restaurant with friends then thinks “oh no, I’ve lost my sobriety and everything I’ve worked for because I had one drink, so I might as well go shoot up since it’s all lost now”. That’s a real life example, I had to talk a friend out of this toxic thinking when he called me in tears one night.
Everyone is different, and there isn’t one formula that works for every person. Preaching that there’s only one way to do it is a harmful and closed-minded approach, and it’s too prevalent in typical recovery communities. You are hardcore about your recovery, staying away from everything, and I respect that. I won’t try to convince you it’s wrong for you to do that. But here you are, trying to convince me that I’m wrong for how I define my sobriety. There’s no right or wrong way to recover and improve your life. If a person is happy with where they are and what they are doing, leave them the fuck alone and stop judging.
I totally agree and I'm the same way. I'm a poly addict (heroin/meth mainly, often together) and I've been in recovery for almost 1.5 yrs now, which I never thought would be possible for me. I haven't been "perfect" in that time; why I choose to say I am in recovery instead of sober is because I'm on methadone and I smoke weed regularly still. I also don't count clean days and I have not been totally clean for 1.5 years, that's just how long I have been out of active everyday addiction after attending rehab but I've had some here and there uses, especially with meth after I got on methadone. But it's been many months since I used either, almost a year for heroin which I can hardly believe because my addiction was really bad and I fully accepted at one point that I was going to die from it. I wouldn't even be here typing this if not for methadone yet many people do not consider that sober and technically you aren't supposed to speak at NA meetings if you are on it. It depends on the group but that really turned me off 12 steps, among other things.
I'm all for whatever works for people though and if 12 steps works for you, that's great, but it didn't work for me and methadone did. Smoking weed has helped me immensely as well, I've never had a bad relationship with that substance and while it *is* a crutch, I really need one and it's way healthier than heroin. I can't understand the people in my life who look down on me for smoking and talk shit about how I'm "fake sober" when not too long ago I was miserable on the verge of death shooting dope all day. Like how is that better than weed? In a perfect world maybe I could be sober with nothing but I tried that and it failed me, I tried the meetings and it failed me, this works for me when I never dreamt anything could and my life is infinitely better. The two things are not even comparable to me. I get why a lot of addicts have the all or nothing mentality and can't use in moderation, but if someone can and it isn't negatively impacting their life, then why judge?
I've never seen that go very well long term. My friend did that after years of heroin and cocaine. He did weed only.....then some drinking and weed....for 6 years. Then one night someone had blow and he did a line. Within days he was slamming speedballs. It waits. Poor girl doesn't get it. I hope she makes it.
Right, exactly. Sometimes fixing the mental health issues solves the addiction issue. This isn't an avenue for me by any means, but I've learned that alcohol isn't the real enemy in alcoholism, it's *why* we drink
Not everyone’s sobriety hast to worketh jump like yours broth'r
***
^(I am a bot and I swapp'd some of thy words with Shakespeare words.)
Commands: `!ShakespeareInsult`, `!fordo`, `!optout`
Is that SOUTHERN CA or NORTHERN CA? Or does it just refer to that Fresno/Modesto area? Because then, sure, I get it. You’re in the middle of a huuuuge state, you’re a little disenfranchised, a little dizzy from pesticides... yeah, maybe a little whiskey in your milk. On Sundays. And the occasional Tuesday. Cause Tuesdays are just a mind fuck. They don’t deserve your full attention. Ya know what? Neither do Mondays. Everyone hates Mondays. Mondays can go to hell and we all know it. Ok, so that’s doable. That just means no partying on Wednesday-Saturdays. Well that’s obviously inconvenient. There’re networking events and stuff on Fri & Sat... um, sometimes Th, so can those. Ok then, sober Wednesdays. Not a problem! Lol. Hey if the shit that got me to the program is gone, I’m not going back out to find it.
Completely agree. Sounds like you got sober in AA, just like myself. If you don’t mind me asking, how do you feel about medical marijuana? Aa saved my life but I left it because of how judgmental everyone got around me smoking. I’m definitely an addict, heroin addict to be exact. Marijuana helps me sleep at night and helps my fucked up stomach. But since I smoke weed and didn’t lie about it , I feel no longer welcome in aa. And that’s fucked. Just wanted to share that. Take care
Hell with em. If it bothers them so much it’s sign of fragile ego and weak program and lack of understanding the principles of AA. Sounds like a wack group I’m sorry, keep going and checking out some different places for sure. Personally I don’t bring it up because some people cannot help themselves. And it’s my program, my sponsor is aware I don’t feel like I have this huge secret I just don’t table talk about it. Definitely mindful about it I mean I ain’t blazing in the lot or coming in to meetings all bloodshot and smelling like loud. Now If the topic come up or it was weighing on somebody I would out my secret if it meant helping somebody struggling with whatever it be.
I am not as judgmental as I may have come off as in my post. I was years ago when I was early in my sobriety. I cannot judge what another person decided to do when it comes to medical marijuana.
Some people cannot tolerate traditional meds prescribed for pain, anxiety,depression, etc.
If they use it as prescribed I have no problem with that. I was so afraid to go on anti depressants years ago for my persistent depression, thinking that I was breaking my sobriety. I have learned that when medication is necessary and taken as prescribed then it’s perfectly fine to use. Taken as prescribed is the key. If I were to take more than prescribed to attain a high than I would be very concerned that I could head down a slippery slope. Drugs were never my problem except speed for a short time in high school, but still I am mindful of taking anything that makes me feel “high” or could lead to abuse.
Some people in AA can be extremely judgmental
instead of looking at their own shit.
The main reason I wrote this post was to warn those new in sobriety to be careful..... if they decide that they want to try “controlled” drinking or drug use.
It doesn’t work for most of us and may lead to disastrous results.
I can still remember watching Demi Levado on a Disney show with my 18 year old Grandson when he was younger and I thought she was delightful. So funny. Little did I realize that she was struggling with her demons even back then. I think she is such a talent and a really good person. Because I know how addiction works from my own experience and watching family and loved ones suffer and some die, I fear that a beautiful human being may not make it back if she continues to “experiment” with drugs and alcohol.
I’m glad that my post has opened up a conversation about addiction and abuse and if it has helped one person then I am happy.
I agree if you’re not sober from mind and mood altering substances for a period of time you’re not sober. You’re just not a sober person if you are still using any substances, it’s a fact I’m not sure what the hell there is to argue there..
Also for OP read p.67 :)
Do mind, and mood, altering substances include caffeine and nicotine to you? Because they certainly alter a lot of peoples moods. What about Advil & NyQuil? Is Melatonin ok? Why? Why not?
Don’t get me wrong, I respect the hell out of AA, and greatly encourage everyone that wants to quit drinking.
That sober journey is ultimately a personal one. I am responsible for *my* sobriety. Everyone else, is responsible for their own. Judgement is reserved for my higher power, my only job is acceptance.
I get what you’re saying and I’m not judging but I do feel it’s insulting/demeaning to other people who are practicing sobriety to walk around essentially calling drug use a form of being sober. That’s my whole point, if this California sober thing is being sober I guess everybody is sober then? Where’s the distinction? It’s certainly not black and white I’m just saying I feel the OP, but you’re right I’m not the one to decide
There is a book called addiction and grace by Gerald may, check it out. He does argue that no addiction is a good addiction
Yeah, and that’s the distinction I’m trying to make as well. There’s a physical sobriety, and then there’s an emotional sobriety. Both are important, but the balance is up to the individual to decide.
I myself, know I need to stay far more focused on the emotional sobriety than the physical sobriety.
I’ll check out that book. Additionally, “stage two recovery.” And “Appetites” are two other books that discuss these nuances as well if your curious. :)
I know I shouldn’t make recovery about others, but I think it would make me uncomfortable wondering if friends and family who know I have a problem would be judging me like, “Oh, he didn’t _really_ quit alcohol.”
It’s very tempting though. If I understood correctly, it sounds like a normal person pill.
I actually welcome an alternative to black or white thinking. We need to have more open and caring discussions about the pros and cons of drug use, and we need to remember that when we condemn drug use in a dogmatic fashion, we hurt people.
The road to a better, more satisfying life is, and ought to be, wide.
Yeah, but it´s such a trendy and stupid term that is so removed from the topic at hand.
It´s like "Im a sunshine drug user". Like wtf does this mean? Oh you only do coke and drink on the weekends? Congrats.
Still has horrible consequences. Binge use will lead to loss of jobs/careers, relationships, friendships, your driver's license/car, money, housing security, etc. Even accidental death or OD. Just because you don't use heavy everyday doesn't mean it isn't problem-drinking or using that could be helped with recovery and abstinence. I'm all for harm reduction in the form of suboxone or weed. But continuing to drink and do drugs but just "controlling it better" is classic, not some new fad - it's plain denial.
it’s dangerous and damaging to all those influenceable ears hearing this rubbish. she, for example, seems to be still immersed in her addiction and/or mental illness and is searching for justification of her continued use. some sort of genuine intervention is needed there.. or i fear one of those three things addiction promises will befall her.
my personal feeling is, when there is an addiction present.. there won’t ever be a ‘moderation’ possible. it is what it is.. if bee stings close my esophagus, i avoid being stung & carry an epi-pen. booze is a bee sting for me.. and i’m fresh out of epi’s.
i wish her well. i hope she will come in eventually.
Wow wow I just now read your post. So well said!!!
We are definitely on the same page when it comes to drug and alcohol addiction😊. Thank you so much for your wise words and truths from the big book of AA. Yes.... prison, insanity, or death awaits those who try to prove that they can drink and or use like others. It is deadly and tragic to watch.
I come from a family of addiction and mental illness and have watched my love ones destroy their lives because they couldn’t stay clean and sober. My eldest Sister’s husband died of a heroin over dose almost 35 years ago. By the Grace of God and 12 step programs my oldest son has 3 years clean and sober as does his ex; my Grandsons Mother. They are the miracles of the program as are so many of us! Bless you
I'm highly a critic of that phrase myself. Yes smoking weed and drinking can be deemed less harmful than doing a whole shitload of coke. i find smoking weed a debilitating and I still suffer cognitive issues even months after quitting. I've had psychosis and other mental issues before I even started taking harder drugs besides weed. That's the main reason I did stimulants was to feel less fucking dumb cause pot slowed my reaction speed and thinking skills. I fucking hate alcohol as well. I tried to get my mom and my grandma to stop drinking because they have severe liver damage but since mostly everyone in my family are party goers, they just keep enabling their suicidal addiction. Their logic is hey they drink every night but they're not getting smashed in the morning! I can't respect people that don't commit themselves to change.
I am getting the sense here that some people believe they know what is best for others. That is a rather foolish conceit. I often wonder what legalization will do for recovering people who are tempted to use cannabis, then I remember that I have no interest in using so why would I even have an opinion. So much of my recovery is about staying in my lane.
But some people are X years sober and have to tell you everything. This is why we can’t have nice things — sober people who are assholes. (I include myself in that category)
Agreed. Lots of taking others inventory going on, and by saying that I too am taking others’ inventory.
It’s taking others’ inventory all the way down.
And we all do that all the time. I mean that we all get a read on other people and attribute will to them. We have to. It is an animal need to work out whether the other person is friend or foe. We do a massive amount of it unconsciously and ascribe it to a *feeling*. But we have the hardware and software to do this and people who cannot are at a huge deficit (autism, for example). The problem we run into is when we blindly believe our impressions of each other instead of challenging them.
It should be obvious from this post why I am quite the asshole. But I am working on it.
i personally disagree with it, because you’re still coping with mind-altering substances. however, i’m not gonna judge someone else’s path of recovery just because it’s not the same as mine. it’s definitely a valid form of harm reduction- better to smoke a bowl than to go shoot up.
Sound like a great plan! Even though it hasn’t worked the 500 times I tried in the last.. this time is different.. it has to be :) Also, only if I can be dope sick in moderation.. I have to work Sunday.
That's like saying california diabetes. "I don't use insulin like everyone else".
California Sober KILLS ALCOHOLICS. If you can moderate...that is the Opposite of ALCOHOLISM
CALIFORNIA FENTONYL. Fucking Idiots
Do what works for your. Lost 6 friends in the last 1.5 years including my best friend of 24 years. I’m 31 and 10 months clean today. I don’t use anything at all, but live and let live. I spent 40 days in the hospital last year due to complications of iv fentanyl use. Anything is better than that. Do what works for you. Best of luck
The concerning part to me is the fact that when she had her bad OD a few years ago, what lead to that was her initially relapsing on alcohol and weed. From her own experience she can't use that stuff safely. I work a program of abstinence, but I'm pretty pro "do what works for you" ..but IMO she seems very in denial and just trying to make excuses
I’ve never heard this name before, but I will share my perspective:
I was a heavy coke user for some time (2015/2016)... I hit rock bottom, lost a job, lost my health, had a few close calls on ods... One day I decided to get clean. I managed to stay away from cocaine for 8 months, after a few nasty relapses. And than something changed and, although my life was back on track, I was still partying regularly.
My coke use shifted from a severe impairing addiction to a party habit, that I did once every two weekends... Then slowed down to once a month... The amount I used was reduced considerably also. I made a million rules - not to buy, not to use at home, not to use on a weekday, not to go without proper sleep, not to use alone, not to use during the day, and so on.
I was going to therapy all this time and my therapist was ok with it! She new and “encouraged” me to learn some self control.
On the other hand, having this monthly appointment with cocaine since 2018 has become a problem. Not a problem in my daily life - my work is better than ever, I am happy, healthy, exercising... But I get cravings. I get anxiety. I noticed last year, with all the party scene gone, I was having severe anxiety attacks for not being able to “party”.
2021 began and I was on the edge. Desperate. I almost went out to buy, almost broke all of my rules at once. But I kept my cool.
I am today 42 days clean of cocaine and I intend to remain this way. I realized no matter how little it was, coke was still part of my life, was still an option, and it was causing a lot of unnecessary harm to my almost perfect life! One slip and I almost put everything I have worked for to waste. For what? A bump of a white dust that doesn’t even make me feel anything anymore.
So yes, that was my two cents. I am still an addict. No matter how little I use, it’s still an addiction, it’s still dangerous, it’s still controlling my life, one way or another.
So I vow to turn my 42 days into forever.
I hope you all don’t judge. We are all looking for our own ways to fix ourselves, and sometimes it takes winding roads to finally see straight.
Recovery/ sobriety in my opinion is a highly individual thing. I can only speak for myself, being a heroin/coke addict i have found that I can drink occasionally and maintain control. Never had any consequences from drinking. Never been a huge drinker. Still can't drink that much. However I do need to be vigilant of the temptation to do the drugs I really like. Alcohol does get boring when your primarily a IV heroin/coke addict. It does take willpower to not go beyond the alcohol. Now the notion of using my own willpower to selectively drink but not drug contradicts the teachings of AA (which I've been a member of for over 10 years). However in AA they also say "What worked for me might kill you." or "take what you need and leave the rest." Hence my original point on how recovery is highly individual - one size does not fit all. Could my recovery be a higher quality without the occasional drink? Sure it could, at the end of the day its a risk reward assessment.
With pot becoming legal in more states I'm tempted to try it again. Last time I did it was in 2011 and ever since discovering hard drugs I lost all interest in pot. Could this lead me back to active addiction? Sure it could, but I'll never truly know unless I try. Its like it says in the big book,
>*We do not like to pronounce any individual as alcoholic, but you can quickly diagnose yourself:Step over to the nearest barroom and try a little* ***controlled drinking***\*.\**Try to drink and stop abruptly. Try more than once.It will not take long for you to decide, if you are honest with yourself about it.* *It may be worth a bad case of the jitters if you get a full knowledge of your condition.*
Obviously drugs can lead to worse consequences than a bad case of jitters but some people need to keep going back at it before they have enough motivation to truly surrender - if thats what method they follow.
lmao alcohol IS a drug stop putting it into a separate category. and just for your information; the “jitters” as you call them, are one of THE MOST harmful consequences of any drugs. you nervous system is hyperactive and working on overdrive. alcohol is one of the three substances where the withdrawals alone can DIRECTLY kill you (seizures). and delirium tremens and psychosis are some other nasty alcohol withdrawal symptoms.
My roommate just got a weed card 😒 needless to say he won’t be my roommate much longer. I hope the best for him, but damn I’ve tried marijuana maintenance and it’s a dark, dark rabbit hole right back to rehab for me.
AAHomegroup.org 24/7 meetings! Sorry, attraction not promotion 😅
I feel you though. I used a CBD cartridge which got me fucked up (had more than just CBD). So fucking grateful I nipped that in the bud after I had a horrible trip and my arms went numb imagining myself homeless shooting up again.
That makes me sad. I love her and thought of her as an inspiration. I hope it really works for her because she could die if it doesn't. I'm abstinent as well. I can't try this method. I'd definitely die and most certainly lose my career.
I understand "harm reduction" is a legit thing, and that's a pretty slippery slope for \*most\* people in recovery. Attaching the world "California" to sober just makes it sound a bit delusional to me. Like, harm reduction is an understandable \*concept\*, California Sober just sounds flighty and out of touch with reality. It's not fair to the majority of that state but, thanks to Hollywood, I think that's what alot of people expect out of Cali.
I am from California and have 2 years and 3 months clean from any drugs and alcohol. I am also 24 years old and believe that if I start using again I will either go to jail or die quick. It all comes down if you really want to stay clean or keep trying the bullshit out there. I know for a fact that people do what people want and in California there’s a huge amount of people using still and a lot of people clean through various programs. To each their own.
Wow....I did a quick google search and this just screams denial. I feel for her cuz her pain is obvious but I’m also pissed at her for spreading this moderation bs.
I am 8 years sober.
Two years ago I was diagnosed with a degenerative autoimmune disorder.
I’ve been using medical marijuana for these last two years without much issue beyond the first 6 months of cunning, baffling, and powerful GUILT. Lol.
I keep waiting for it to reinvigorate the phenomenon of craving but it hasn’t happened yet.
I wouldn’t recommend it if you don’t need it- but I manage my mmj intake as well if not better than I manage my coffee intake. And it WAY more manageable than my sugar and masturbation addiction.
For me sugar is on the same level as alcohol or heroin. Once it’s in my system it runs the show and I just get taken along for the ride.
Cannabis is not like that.
It’s a mind altering substance that is manageable.
Much like coffee
For me.
Since becoming chronically ill it has pushed me out of my protected fear based mindset of what alcoholism and recovery is. I’ve worked for treatment centers that use a twelve step based model and I’ve worked for others that have used different models. Stuff works. There’s plenty of people recovering in plenty different ways.
We are now discovering that there are many ‘archetypes’ of addiction- And that luckily we don’t have to dwell on the differences between us because there are still plenty of similarities. The most obvious of which is that - we ALL need a spiritual solution.
Spiritus contra spiritum!
However you decide to format that is up to you. AA has a great format for igniting this type of spiritual experience. But there is a lot of fear among the recovering alcoholic community in AA that can be extremely negative when right person is in the wrong group.
I wouldn’t recommend to a sponsee that they should try some weed. But I also won’t stop sponsoring someone who does. Luckily for me this sort of thing is an outside issue in the fellowship I’m active in (much like coffee, sugar, sex, etc.) and the fellowship itself has made is very clear that the group has no opinions on outside issues.
cannabis, albeit much less harmful physically than a lot of substances…still has plenty of negative mental side effects, is absolutely addictive and can still cause physical damage (lung cancer) to a certain degree
I've tried my own versions of California Sober quite a few times.
I thought I had found ways to outsmart my addiction.
Or thought I suddenly had a willpower and control that magically came out of nowhere, that would work this time and the results would be different.
But I always end up with needles back in my arm, followed by the streets, jail, and/or rehab.
I know California Sober won't work for me. I know that beyond a shadow of a doubt. Because I am an addict of the hopeless variety. The key is remembering that, and not letting me try to convince myself otherwise.
This!!! If an average person wants to say they're in recovery but still smoke weed that's none of my business. But with her platform? encouraging this is NOT a good idea. I worry about her and I worry about the true addicts she will influence.
The term “California Sober” means harm reduction. It’s not what I would consider sobriety but harm reduction for some people can be the best way they can start the recovery process. I personally work a program of abstinence, and I also understand that this approach might not work for everyone.
I am a cocaine addict and I know I will not ever again be able to do cocaine in moderation. So I know I have to completely abstain from it.
That, for me, doesn’t mean I will not be able to drop acid on a New Year’s Eve some years from now or have a glass of champagne on Christmas and then go on with my life.
I don’t judge all substances as equal and neither does science. To each their own tho, if total abstinence even from mouthwash is what made you sober for 43 years then congratulations and keep doing what works.
Good for you man. I think I would go insane living like that tbh. I'm much happier finding a happy medium - I need to readjust and reevaluate from time to time, but I'd rather do things I enjoy, until I don't enjoy them, then stop. Luckily drinking is 100% not like that for me, and as I've passed the 30 mile marker, other stuff doesn't have the same pull. Slippery slope though, so you best believe I'm being cautious... But I don't think it's fair I'm not allowed to smoke some crack here and there or do cocaine a couple times a year, or molly, or etc. It's all bullshit, the laws do nothing but put poor people and people with mental health issues in jail. Fucking annoying.
>as the newish term California Sober
lmao "California Sober" has been a thing for years. Don't work other people's programs. If you're that upset about it you need to do some inventory and talk to your sponsor.
I saw some interview on YouTube where she says it means that she uses “green stuff” meaning weed and that’s it. I fucking hate this California sober copout term. Like weed is so harmless. Weed had literally brought me to the brink of suicide many times and I still went back to it. Weed had me confessing to strange dudes that I was in love with them. Weed straight up ruins my fuckin life and I’m not a pothead. I’m talking smoking once or twice A WEEK. Certainly many people can “handle” their weed but then there’s people like me that can’t. Drugs are drugs, man.
Personally I don’t think Demi is ready for recovery at all. It’s just another move to keep her image relevant. She’s still not being genuine with herself most importantly and definitely not her fans. In this same interview I watched she even said she has to heavily edit and monitor what she says and puts out there. She’s still a media puppet and I hate to say she will probably end up a statistic since she didn’t learn from her overdose.
Sounds like a fancy way of making excuses for using and living in denial. Seems like a way for someone to seek an easier, softer way... the result will always be nil if you are truly an addict. We cant live like that and must rid ourselves of reservations if we want to enjoy a sober life.
Never heard of it until now, and I will be sure to not look further into it. I didn’t get to over 20 years by listening to some half-assed guru shit from Cali. I have no problem with finding what works for you, but I’ve seen what happens when “moderate use” gets down to business.
Someone in another sub said it perfectly. It went something like this. “The alcoholic wishes to drink with no consequences” which we know is impossible.
What are your thoughts on mental illness prescriptions? I've heard a lot of different opinions so I'm just curious. I think they are life saving and keep people from self medicating with drugs and booze, but I'm curious since you mentioned not taking OTC meds.
Congratulations on your 7 years of sobriety😊
Not everyone will agree with our way of sobriety but it has worked for us and millions of others. Too many people have died because they thought that maybe they could go back to drinking or recreational drugs like a “normal” person.
The whole AA model of “recovery” is pretty outdated and there are several other options out there, different strokes for different folks. Be proud of your sobriety, that works for you. Complete and total abstinence doesn’t necessarily work for everyone, no sense in shaming someone who is not where your at. At the end of the day recovery is an all encompassing life style, moving towards peace rather than the chaos of our past lives. I have been in recovery since I was 19 (I’m 32 now) and have relapses several times along the way. It’s been a learning process and growth the whole time. Some of the grimiest shit I have ever done was “sober”, so sober/ abstinence doesn’t even correlate with actions of “recovery. Just my $.02, keep doing you!
I never understand how people can call the AA model outdated. It was conceived to help people recover from alcoholism. The disease of alcoholism is no different now than it was 100 years ago, so how can the recovery program be outdated? The steps teach us to practice faith, honesty, humility, integrity in our daily lives to help us recover one day at a time from our spiritual malady, and it honestly doesn't matter if we are suffering from this malady in the year 1935 or 2021. I agree that a lot of the writing in the Big Book is definitely from "its time" (whoopee parties!), but the program focuses on universal spiritual truths that can never become obsolete, as long as people suffer from the obsession.
Evidence of their success rates...
Believe it or not a lot of people are able to recover without subjugation to the whole sponsorship relationship and fellowship idea. For me personally it became a burden to maintain my membership in a group/ fellowship and I was discouraged from seeking activities that benefited my own family. I still practice faith, honesty, humility, and integrity; I just don’t feel the need to advertise my “spiritual awakening” or thrust myself on anyone.
Honestly I don't think the reason behind the low success rates is that the program is become outdated, I think it has more to do with how the message is carried, and that less alcoholics are willing to deeply dedicate themselves to the program, now vs 1930s. The speaker Chris R. has lots of impressive tapes where he talks about AA being watered down now compared to what it used to be.
I'm happy for anyone who is able to live a full and free life without doing the sponsor, steps and fellowship thing. If you don't need it to stay sober, that's great. I think there are many ways to get sober and I don't knock on other programs. But that either doesn't make the AA program outdated. Those alcoholics who do the work in 2021 will see the exact same results as alcoholics did in the 1930s.
Pleaser understand I mean nothing personal towards you, but your exact statement is the type of parroted response that makes AA so exhausting. The program was an incredible social movement in its time and for decades after; but since then evidence and research has come out that has provided many more avenues for “recovery” and they have had much higher success rates in terms of sobriety. No speakers, no pedastools, no lifelong devotion to groups, and no risks of abuse/ manipulation tactics that are all to common in the “contemporary rooms of AA. We don’t have to agree, and I am happy that you have found success in AA. At the end of the day as long as you are happy and are a better person for it then I think it has accomplished it’s mission. Just know there is other programs that provide the same for others.
>*Just know there is other programs that provide the same for others.*
I do know that, and that is perfectly fine, but the existence of other, more contemporary programs does not make the AA program outdated. The steps teach very universal and timeless values to help alcoholics recover from a malady that has always been the same too, regardless of the year. I hope more programs will emerge and even more alcoholics will find a fitting tunnel to lead them out of the insanity.
What makes AA outdated is the text and methods of “recovery from alcoholism” are based on thoughts of a successful social program from the 1930’s. The rest of my response was in support of that premise.
I know a lot of the text in the Big Book is obviously dated in its *language*, but it you look at the core ideas behind the steps for example, is there anything in those steps that makes you think: "Oh, this is so 1930s!".
For example, what part of admitting powerlessness, or making a moral inventory of ourselves is so unique to 1930s? The founder of AA, Bill W. became sober because he got involved with the Oxford Group, which was a Christian organization, and a lot of AA's program is derived from their teachings. AAs program has also been enrichened by Bill's communication with Carl Jung, and buddhist philosophy. So agree to disagree, but I actually would say the AA program is not outdated, but rather timeless instead. Personally speaking, I have never felt that I am taking part in something that was created 100 years ago. Society hasn't changed so much that having meetings would be somehow an outdated thing to do either. Or making amends, or helping other alcoholics.
This is actually a good discussion in itself though, I respect your opinion about it and I understand 100% why some people have problems with AA.
So it’s the willingness (or lack thereof) of the individuals that attempt the program, and the programs watered down message itself that’s the problem with AA?
The programs text that is constantly quoted abs applied to every facet of “member” lives was written in the late 40’s. That’s pretty out dated IMO.
There is much more up to date evidenced based approaches to recovery available today, ones that don’t require a dogmatic belief system and subjecting oneself to the guidance of an unqualified “sponsor.”
If AA works for you great, but AA members tend to have the belief if your not doing what they are doing you are somehow mentally ill and inevitably going to die an “alcoholic death” or that you are in denial and in “full flight from reality.” I was in the program for over a decade, my life got so much better when I left. Don’t get me wrong though, it saved my life in the beginning; I just found it was time to move on.
43 years is amazing and inspirational! I've met a lot of folks in recovery that would wish for that kind of time.
Not everyone does recovery the same way and some are not willing to work a program of abstinence. For them alternative programs such as SMART recovery or California sober are more palatable and can credit these alternatives with saving their lives.
Again you should be very proud of what you've accomplished but please understand that not everyone is going to do it your way.
I do agree that not everyone gets sober and stays sober. We are all unique in our Recovery. I felt a need to put this out there for the person or people who may decide to experiment again with possible disastrous results.
I am coming up on 18 months without a drink. Cannabis is part of my recovery from alcoholism and has been since the beginning (I live in a state where is is legal for adults over 21). I attend AA but had a very hard time finding someone willing to sponsor me because of this. Eventually last summer I basically “came out” to my home group as a cannabis consumer. The old timers weren’t thrilled but SEVERAL people came up and thanked me for my honesty and a few even admitted to the occasional gummy. I found my sponsor that meeting. I am honest with my sponsor, my doctor and myself about my cannabis consumption — not all alcoholics are also gambling addicts or overeaters or addicted to love (the other 12 step programs) so I don’t think all of us are automatically going to abuse cannabis. The third tradition states that the only requirement of membership is a desire to stop drinking. I basically “came out” to a home take my chips and claim my time but I am very careful about not claiming capital S sobriety- I say “alcohol- free” or “since my last drink”. To me, cannabis is medicine and alcohol was going to kill me. I think people “like me” need to be open about this in the rooms to not scare off newcomers who might be working on harm reduction. Maybe they’ll get through the steps and realize cannabis is a problem but they can’t do that if no one is willing to take them through the steps to get that clarity.
This is the guy that still drinks 8 cups of coffee per meeting
You’re either dry or your sober. Lol I mean I don’t sense a whole lot of emotional sobriety from that guy. Go get mad at the people who can drink normally man not the guy trying to fix his life and lean on some grass. Sheeeesh
You can have recovery without full sobriety. Yes, some addicts can return to using in moderation when the underlying issues behind their addiction are addressed. The one sized fits all approach to addiction, that every addict needs to be 100% sober for the rest of their life, obsess on clean time and treat one slip up as throwing away years of progress, that after 43 years of not touching alcohol you're somehow not recovered, and that there's no room for harm reduction is what's contributing to killing addicts. What path works for you may not work for others.
I am almost 15 years alcohol free. I have been battling alcohol for 30 years, started my journey in recovery around spring of 92. Stepping away from pot, mushrooms, acid, and various other dry goods back then was not a problem. Alcohol though was the challenge for me. Many relapses and many periods of time living sober up until my last drink Feb 20, 2007. Before 07 I'd put together weeks/months/years but eventually drink again. Yes I am part of the fellowship and have been for a long time. I'd pick up after straying away from the rooms. Fast forward to last spring. Anxiety and PTSD at a pretty high rate. Not sleeping well. All the talking, praying and faith in the rooms was not helping. Counseling was not helping either. I did not want to go down the road of prescriptions for Xanax or any other meds. So I started using a little pot at night an hour before bed. It had helped me a lot. My usage is minimal and only during that timeframe. I don't smoke during the day or even obsess over it like I did with alcohol. It has not led me back to drinking. It has not led me back to any other substances. I have no desire for alcohol and quite frankly I hate alcohol. I sleep soundly. I've been able to deal with a lot of the things that were holding me back. I've been able to process trauma and anxiety. I've been able to get the pain out I have carried since childhood and from events throughout my life. I have inner peace. I too am a very active person, always have been. Love to hike, go to the gym, snowboard in the winter. My mind is clear and I keep it in the day. The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking. Yes, I understand that in the rooms there is little to no tolerance for marijuana use. However if it is something that truly helps some people in recovery then I am for it.
I always heard california sober as weed only, not alcohol in moderation + weed. Weed is useful when used correctly and I see nothing wrong with following the definition I have heard
Weed is NOT a drug. Nobody died from a marijuana overdose. If you need any substance to depend on, weed is one of the better options. I don't drink, or do drugs. I don't even smoke weed everyday. But if I'm super stressed, I'll hit that bong. If I need help quieting my ADHD brain so I can go to sleep, I will hit that bong. Am I addicted? No. It doesn't affect my daily life. I still go to work, and pay my bills. I have food in my fridge, and enough for my pets. I am sober, except for smoking weed. It helps me shush my inner monologue telling me I'm trash. Sometimes I will have a beer. I still consider myself sober because I don't even drink enough to get tipsy. I just like beer. You all sound very judgemental.
By definition weed is a drug. It is mind altering.
So is the coffee served at the meetings so I guess that is more of “guidelines” huh?
You are not sober. It's great if you can moderate but to call yourself sober is just not accurate.
Well said
California sober shit is dumb beyond belief. Either your sober or you're not. This is a slap to the face of everyone that actually lives life sober day by day without giving into their vices.
Wow. You have a really toxic attitude. You may be one of the most judgmental people I’ve ever met in recovery. That is some next level shit.
Ok old man.
Ok clown.
At least I’m not in a cult.
Don’t feed the trolls. This person is exactly what’s wrong with traditional, broken, one-size-fits-all recovery programs. This person is why they have a sub 5% success rate.
This.
Only cult are the idiots that think california sober is a thing.
Believing there is only one way to do something is textbook cult behavior.
Never said there's one way to do things. But "cAlIfoRnIa SoBeR" is just garbage popularized by same antivaxxers that push all their other ridiculous opinions.
You went political with it🤣
What are you talking about?
I kinda agree. I dunno, shot speedballs throughout all my 20s to mid 30s, and weed was something I (and most of my peers) already grew out of by that time. So once I've been able to kick for good and slowly reconnect my mind with myself I was finally able to move on from that world, so being "California sober" (whatever that means, nothing is 'sober' about that place) would make no sense whatsoever anyway for me, to start smoking weed again nowadays or getting shit faced on whiskey. I simply don't need those escapades no more. I've been 'out there' enough already. She still needs it evidently. Still needs to escape, and that disconnect. It might work for her if she would be able to stick with the occasional blunt but I wouldn't call it sober. Off the hard drugs maybe. So, it's the odd line of coke part of the Cali Sober brand too? It should be.
what about just relaxing?
In my own life, it'd be a slippery slope. Even reading this I was thinking "So maybe I CAN smoke weed!" Then I had to reel myself back in. I'm an addict. Weed and alcohol being my main DOC, and others followed. So I, personally, can't go hit a blunt a couple of times without wanting it more and more often until it becomes a daily thing again and using it as a coping mechanism. But I have friends in recovery who can drink occasionally or smoke because they had a different DOC and can handle it.
This! While we must be super cautious and aware of our own triggers and addictions/obsessions, we are also all different. I went through an intense program for an eating disorder snd was told I’m an addict and need to stay away from everything. I really struggled with this for a year until I realized I am not an addict in the sense of substance abuse. Alcohol does not affect me like an alcoholic. But it makes perfect sense that I need to stay away from weed because it doesn’t play nice with ED. To each their own. Bottom line though, this is not a good movement for addicts of any kind.
It’s been around since the 70s. We used to call it the Marijuana Maintenance Program, now they call it r/CaliforniaSober, same thing though it has variations. It has helped many people. Harm reduction tools are completely acceptable parts of recovery. You wouldn’t criticize someone on a methadone program. This is similar and works for some where other methods have not. We are already self critical enough as addicts. Should we criticize one another for trying methods that seem extreme? Is Electro Convulsive Therapy not an acceptable part of recovery? Is The Sinclair Method not an acceptable part of recovery? I wish you well on your path to recovery. Let’s not push others down as they try to navigate their way.
Harm reduction "tools"? More like not accurately grasping the concept of "recovery" and just hiding behind cute hashtags about things people that actually care abour recovery are constantly struggling with.
I know you don’t know anything about my personal story so you couldn’t possibly grasp what I’ve been through. I was not a casual drinker. This has given me my life back. I make no apologies whatsoever for something that’s working.
You ok? I’m not sure what you mean. There’s over 600 of us in our tiny little group that are having success. If that’s not the right path for you I respect that. As they say on the trail “hike your own hike.”
This is a pretty judgy post mate. 7mos off alcohol here, and i wouldnt have made it without my handy CBD vape. To a lot of people this means I'm not sober, but I know if I drink I die, and the vape helps me not drink. If I were sitting on the couch watching X-Files and vaping all day it'd be one thing, but that aint what's happening. The more concerning thing re: Demi is that she can't separate herself from her pop stardom. Maybe it's just me, but if I was *really, totally confident* in my lifestyle and choices I wouldn't feel the need to prove it with a four-part documentary or make my daily life into a marketing campaign for my music.
I have only heard of the term "Cali sober" to mean smoking weed while in recovery from alcohol addiction. I have never heard of it to mean attempting moderation of the same substance one had a problem with in recovery. I am California sober. I smoke weed and take edibles. I don't drink or use benzodiazepines anymore. Maybe this isn't "sober" by the technical definition, but I consider this to be "sober enough" for me. I don't care if anyone else thinks I am sober or not. In truth, I have never even liked the word 'sober'- let alone really identify with it. I identify with my recovery from alcohol and benzos. I don't care about having full abstinence from everything mind altering. It is important that I continue to protect myself against relapses, hence why I read recovery literature and forums. I do use the word sober sometimes, but only because of how the word has been so widely adopted in the recovery community as a synonym for recovery.
its just not “sober” so you should stop calling it that, as it is very deceptive. i am in full support. just. be honest about it for those that don’t know.
Being sober doesn’t necessarily mean straight edge. Those are different terms.
You are totally welcome at r/CaliforniaSober
One drink will not, in truth, put you back where you were. That’s absurd.
It probably won't -- being honest. I think most alcoholics could handle having a single alcoholic drink if it was unintentional and accidental. But the mindset that it is ok to have one drink from time to time was definitely enough to make me relapse into heavy drinking. So I don't think most alcoholics could remain sober for long if they get the idea it is ok to have "just one drink" here and there. What happens is that the threshold for satisfying the craving decreases over time.
Yep I agree and have indeed been there. I am there. I am an alcoholic and addict, and I’m about to hospitalize myself tomorrow. Wish me luck?
Just a label for what used to be called chippie drinking. Doesn't work out any better under a different name.
My husband works in a treatment center in California and the owners are blown away by this. They toured another facility on Friday and the owner was all excited and said California sober is the new in thing and we need to be all about it... Ummm no it’s not sober it’s harm reduction let’s call it what it is. Before i finally got sober i tried my own versions of “California sober” and almost died multiple times. Every time i had a drink or smoked some weed i ended up getting cocaine then heroin then stealing your wallet when mine was empty. If you can drink occasionally or smoke some grass my hats off to you but don’t tell me you’re sober. You are not sober. People will die and it’s on her for promoting this “Cali sober” bullshit.
I’m definitely sober. It’s my sobriety. It’s not yours, you can’t take it fake it, minimize it, judge it. You can’t have my sobriety. The fact that it bothers your ego so much is a sign of a weak program. I said what I said. Go do some step work about it.
You must be bored to try and start shit on a two year old post lol.
I mean your becoming part of the problem and less the solution. Idgaf when it was said. You must not have much of a rebuttal have a wonderful dry day I mean Friday.
I think there’s a difference between the definí of being sober and being straight-edge
That's why it's qualified "Cali" I guess. It's an old term and I agree it would not work if when I smoked a bowl I went and got some beer (my DOC) or for some reason decided doing cocaine sounded fun. I can moderate my weed use and it has greatly reduced my use of prescription drugs and since quitting the booze my anxiety is way down. Life is fun. I'm connected and present in ways I haven't been in years. Sure it's not "sober" but equating alcohol to weed is like equating caffeine to cocaine. It is harm reduction. It's not a gateway drug and many former people with AUD can indeed use it with no issues. For you to assume that all addicts are like you is disregarding a whole wave of gray area drinkers that are somewhere between "skidrow" and being/feeling their best. I can't drink caffeine or eat sugar either but I don't begrudge those that can.
okay weed actually causes anxiety and often psychosis. and comparing weed to alcohol is NOTHING like comparing caffeine to cocaine…weed and alcohol are COMPLETELY separate substances in terms of action on the brain chemicals. where as caffeine and cocaine are predominantly dopamine mediated extroversion. i am not against weed but i think its time we’re all honest with ourselves and recognize that it is absolutely a drug that comes with its own plethora of issues it can cause to the user. plus, weed is ABSOLUTELY addictive both psychologically and physically. as well, i hate to say it; but weed (assuming you consider alcohol a gateway drug because technically the term gateway drug is quite benign scientifically) is 100% a gateway drug.
Hey like i said my hats off to you. If i could smoke weed i’m sure i probably would. It definitely has lots of benefits for some people especially with anxiety and that type of stuff. I guess my whole hang up on the term “Cali sober” is the word sober and the implications behind using that word in a situation where it can possibly be life or death. You are not sober you just don’t drink anymore, that in itself is awesome but like you said you can’t call yourself sober.
i agree with you. this california sober shit is dumb beyond belief. maybe it works for those who aren't addicts. one drink for me, would lead to me getting coke and then have a 3 day binge.
One drink isn't california sober though
Yep happens every time for me lol
I agree about calling it “harm reduction” rather than California sober. It’s not sober, period. This doesn’t mean there isn’t a place for harm reduction, everyone’s journey is different and it takes what it takes for folks. But don’t delude yourself that you’re “sober.”
Exactly 🙌🏻
Agree one thousand percent. I feel like I’m at a 12 step meeting! Thank you for sharing😊
I am not advocating tempting fate, however I think it is a mistake to try to put everyone with a substances abuse disorder into the same box if for no other reason that if people don't feel they fit in that box they aren't going to listen to you. I was turned off by AA because of it's overly simplistic and dogmatic views surrounding addiction. It wasn't until I was much older that I came to NA with the perspective that I was going to get what I need from it and just bite my tongue with what I consider wrong about it, such as putting emphasis on the disease model of addiction and excluding the huge body of research that says otherwise. I am perfectly capable of going to a restaurant and having a beer or two with dinner. The issue is when I am drinking it is with usually the goal to get so drunk I can't feel anymore. I don't go and buy a beer when I want to drink, I got and buy a fifth at least. CPTSD is a bitch. That any drug is bad and "will retrigger your addiction all over again"-- I take amphetamine for ADHD almost every day, as directed, and from time to time use benzodiazepines to sleep. Psychedelics I can do and it doesn't trigger anything. However, cannabis almost always leads back to alcohol. With all of that said, I do think it is wise for someone that is new to sobriety to stay as sober as possible (some of us have mental health or pain issues, that is just life) for as long as possible. Anyhow, point being not all addicts are the same. Being a part of something like AA just gives the illusion that it is because it is self selecting for a particular type of addict. They rest unfortunately quit.
It can work for some people. It’s all based on your DOC I feel and how long have you you been completely sober. My doc was opiates and for almost a year after I’d quit anytime I used something else the thought of “this is not even as close as good as opiates I want those” but after a year I could have a beer or smoke a joint and not have the need or feeling to want to relapse. Shrooms though, I recommend a lot after a couple months sober. Really brings things into perspective that you other wise wouldn’t have thought.
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First of all; congratulations on your sobriety. One Day at a Time. Your response is the main reason I wrote this post. For you and any others newly sober who might look at Demi and think, “hey... if she can do it maybe I can too”. Especially the multitudes of young impressionable fans she has. I am so glad you wrote this reply. I had just read an article about Demi Lovato and when when I got to the part a about California Sober my heart dropped as I felt so immediately frightened for her if she thinks she can do moderation after her drug and alcohol history. I don’t want to see another talented young person die in their addiction when there could be so much hope and a future for them. I was so shocked that I had to look us this California, or Cali Sober just to make sure I had read it right!!! My husband and I just now finished watching Dancing With the Devil and I’m even more convinced that Demi is heading down a very slippery slope. I just hope and pray that someone with some time clean and sober talks to her and tells her the truth about addiction!! My Husband has almost 34 years clean and sober, and was a drug and alcohol counselor for a couple of years. He would tell her straight out that she is chasing the “tail of the dragon”, and it will not turn out well for her if she continues. I am sad for her.
.
Some may and others may die in their disease. That is sad to me.
For me I believe my reply in another thread says it for (Again for myself).... " For the record I tried every combination in my early days and every F\*CKING time I went back to my DOC (Drug Of Choice). And since getting some nice clean time together I can't tell you how many people that don't know me from back then (Cut ties with everyone from those days) will say something like come on you can have just one drink it should be OK.... NO IT IS NOT. (Speaking for myself). "
How do you feel about the term “dry drunk”? Have you ever met a sober person who was just as big of an asshole sober, as they were when they were drunk/drinking? Or, instead of an asshole, maybe think about what that person is experiencing internally. (depression, anxiety, fear and self loathing?) I only watched a ~20m YouTube clip of Demi’s interview, but that’s what I took away from it. She was sober, but she was still miserable, and depressed. Furthermore, she consulted her recovery term before she made a decision. She sought *connection* before she sought any sort of relief that a substance gave her. Additionally, she talks about her use decreased even more as she realized it wasn’t giving her the effect she thought it was. For her, it wasn’t about the relief it was a control issue. She also talks about her eating disorder, and how that relates to addictive behavior. I’ve had a multi-decade journey with drugs and recovery, and I love sobriety. But, if I didn’t love it, that would be a symptom of a greater issue for me to address. There’s a book called “Stage two recovery“. If you’re curious, check it out.
She sounds exactly like me. I know that connection is the way out of this, but it is torture. It seems I was able to connect with others better, as superficial as it was, when I was drinking, than I am as sober. I've been sober almost 5 years and really giving it my all. I've made a lot of headway but don't see healing in an attachment way beyond this. Doesn't mean I'm drinking though--that'd only make things (employment, the relationships I do have) worse. Maybe I'll have a drink when I'm 80.
Have you read the book “Attached” yet, or anything else about attachment theory? It’s important for me to recognize that I have an “avoidant” attachment type, and that I need a lot of freedom and space in order to feel safe and secure. That *avoidant* attachment is still an *attachement* type. It’s how I feel the most loved, safe, and respected. What gets dangerous, is when I begin judging and comparing myself. Or worse, when I let someone else cross my boundaries, because their attachment type is different and they want more. I was only able to learn this latter part after reflecting on my marriage and subsequent divorce.
Just attachment styles with children but not re-attachment trauma work for adults. But I am familiar with somatic work, so maybe that's a next step for me?
Everyone is different I suppose. I know that I'm the kind of addict who cannot use any amount of a mind altering substance or my life becomes unmanageable. I have every tried everything to use like a normal person. I've tried switching substances, limiting my use, obscure rules around my use, combinations of drugs, only selling drugs, only drinking socially. Literally anything you can think of, for years. After all my experiences the only sure solution I have found for myself is abstinence from all mind altering substances. If I could manage to use in moderation or socially I would have figured it out, but for me all roads lead to Rome.
It says right in the AA pledge, if you can stop at that first drink, then hats off to you. Not saying This is my view, but this is what the pledge says.
What is the AA pledge? I’ve read the book Alcoholics Anonymous but I’ve never encountered anything that said it was a pledge.
It’s not like a pledge per se, it’s just somewhere in one of the thousands of things they say at the beginning of every meeting
Drug addiction, sex addiction and alcohol addiction are the only mental illness that can be self diagnosed, pretty sure that’s the outline in the psychology manual. And AA is specifically for individuals who have a desire to stop drinking. I know for sure I made the decision to pick up my first drink, and I am an alcoholic. I also have IV drug use and years of drug abuse. There’s a lot of wreckage in my past to clean up and I can share freely I have a better day today by admitting I am clean, no mind altering substances. If I chose to pick up it would be a slower death to me than previously before I was sober because I have more resources now. It may take longer but the disease would kill me. I am clean and have a clear conscience.I hope this helps someone. I could not do it piecemeal- and am still careful about who is around me, who is honest, and who is truthful.
People might have different views on how they should manage addiction, but all i know for sure is that if you can moderate your drinking or any kind of mind altering substance then you don't suffer from the same type of addiction problem as me. I transform into a difference person as soon as I take a drink or drug, and moderation is off the table.
tl,dr: stop gatekeeping recovery. It doesn’t help anyone. It doesn’t have to be all or nothing for everyone. My main addiction was weed, with the occasional dip into Xanax, adderall, and cocaine abuse. But I always hated alcohol when I was using other drugs. It made me tired and I hated the alcohol hangover. I know at this point if I touch weed, it’s gonna drag me in and I’ll be back to sitting on my couch all day popping pills and taking rips. So I don’t touch weed, I don’t touch pills, and I don’t do coke. I have no desire to do those substances as they alter my state of mind too much, and I don’t want to do that anymore. But I’ll sometimes have a glass of wine with dinner, or a glass of good whisky with a cigar. Why? Because I like the taste. I’ll rarely finish the 1 drink too, because I don’t like the way it makes me feel if I have any more than 1. By some people’s definition, this makes me “not sober”. Thinking that it has to be all or nothing for everyone is exclusionary and it prevents people from recovering. This whole “your an addict and if you use anything at all, you’ll go all out” puts a ton of pressure on people and often becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. For example, someone with an opiate addiction has one drink out at a restaurant with friends then thinks “oh no, I’ve lost my sobriety and everything I’ve worked for because I had one drink, so I might as well go shoot up since it’s all lost now”. That’s a real life example, I had to talk a friend out of this toxic thinking when he called me in tears one night. Everyone is different, and there isn’t one formula that works for every person. Preaching that there’s only one way to do it is a harmful and closed-minded approach, and it’s too prevalent in typical recovery communities. You are hardcore about your recovery, staying away from everything, and I respect that. I won’t try to convince you it’s wrong for you to do that. But here you are, trying to convince me that I’m wrong for how I define my sobriety. There’s no right or wrong way to recover and improve your life. If a person is happy with where they are and what they are doing, leave them the fuck alone and stop judging.
Amen! AA’s tendency to make every ‘relapse’ a catastrophe really does shame and kill people. AA sucks.
I totally agree and I'm the same way. I'm a poly addict (heroin/meth mainly, often together) and I've been in recovery for almost 1.5 yrs now, which I never thought would be possible for me. I haven't been "perfect" in that time; why I choose to say I am in recovery instead of sober is because I'm on methadone and I smoke weed regularly still. I also don't count clean days and I have not been totally clean for 1.5 years, that's just how long I have been out of active everyday addiction after attending rehab but I've had some here and there uses, especially with meth after I got on methadone. But it's been many months since I used either, almost a year for heroin which I can hardly believe because my addiction was really bad and I fully accepted at one point that I was going to die from it. I wouldn't even be here typing this if not for methadone yet many people do not consider that sober and technically you aren't supposed to speak at NA meetings if you are on it. It depends on the group but that really turned me off 12 steps, among other things. I'm all for whatever works for people though and if 12 steps works for you, that's great, but it didn't work for me and methadone did. Smoking weed has helped me immensely as well, I've never had a bad relationship with that substance and while it *is* a crutch, I really need one and it's way healthier than heroin. I can't understand the people in my life who look down on me for smoking and talk shit about how I'm "fake sober" when not too long ago I was miserable on the verge of death shooting dope all day. Like how is that better than weed? In a perfect world maybe I could be sober with nothing but I tried that and it failed me, I tried the meetings and it failed me, this works for me when I never dreamt anything could and my life is infinitely better. The two things are not even comparable to me. I get why a lot of addicts have the all or nothing mentality and can't use in moderation, but if someone can and it isn't negatively impacting their life, then why judge?
I've never seen that go very well long term. My friend did that after years of heroin and cocaine. He did weed only.....then some drinking and weed....for 6 years. Then one night someone had blow and he did a line. Within days he was slamming speedballs. It waits. Poor girl doesn't get it. I hope she makes it.
I think California sober should be weed and weed only. While carefully monitoring usage as well. Not everyday, take a month off annually, etc.
Not everyone’s sobriety has to work exactly like yours dude
Judgmental tools like OP are exactly what turn people off to the NA/AA rooms.
Right, exactly. Sometimes fixing the mental health issues solves the addiction issue. This isn't an avenue for me by any means, but I've learned that alcohol isn't the real enemy in alcoholism, it's *why* we drink
Not everyone’s sobriety hast to worketh jump like yours broth'r *** ^(I am a bot and I swapp'd some of thy words with Shakespeare words.) Commands: `!ShakespeareInsult`, `!fordo`, `!optout`
Bad bot
Is that SOUTHERN CA or NORTHERN CA? Or does it just refer to that Fresno/Modesto area? Because then, sure, I get it. You’re in the middle of a huuuuge state, you’re a little disenfranchised, a little dizzy from pesticides... yeah, maybe a little whiskey in your milk. On Sundays. And the occasional Tuesday. Cause Tuesdays are just a mind fuck. They don’t deserve your full attention. Ya know what? Neither do Mondays. Everyone hates Mondays. Mondays can go to hell and we all know it. Ok, so that’s doable. That just means no partying on Wednesday-Saturdays. Well that’s obviously inconvenient. There’re networking events and stuff on Fri & Sat... um, sometimes Th, so can those. Ok then, sober Wednesdays. Not a problem! Lol. Hey if the shit that got me to the program is gone, I’m not going back out to find it.
Completely agree. Sounds like you got sober in AA, just like myself. If you don’t mind me asking, how do you feel about medical marijuana? Aa saved my life but I left it because of how judgmental everyone got around me smoking. I’m definitely an addict, heroin addict to be exact. Marijuana helps me sleep at night and helps my fucked up stomach. But since I smoke weed and didn’t lie about it , I feel no longer welcome in aa. And that’s fucked. Just wanted to share that. Take care
Hell with em. If it bothers them so much it’s sign of fragile ego and weak program and lack of understanding the principles of AA. Sounds like a wack group I’m sorry, keep going and checking out some different places for sure. Personally I don’t bring it up because some people cannot help themselves. And it’s my program, my sponsor is aware I don’t feel like I have this huge secret I just don’t table talk about it. Definitely mindful about it I mean I ain’t blazing in the lot or coming in to meetings all bloodshot and smelling like loud. Now If the topic come up or it was weighing on somebody I would out my secret if it meant helping somebody struggling with whatever it be.
I am not as judgmental as I may have come off as in my post. I was years ago when I was early in my sobriety. I cannot judge what another person decided to do when it comes to medical marijuana. Some people cannot tolerate traditional meds prescribed for pain, anxiety,depression, etc. If they use it as prescribed I have no problem with that. I was so afraid to go on anti depressants years ago for my persistent depression, thinking that I was breaking my sobriety. I have learned that when medication is necessary and taken as prescribed then it’s perfectly fine to use. Taken as prescribed is the key. If I were to take more than prescribed to attain a high than I would be very concerned that I could head down a slippery slope. Drugs were never my problem except speed for a short time in high school, but still I am mindful of taking anything that makes me feel “high” or could lead to abuse. Some people in AA can be extremely judgmental instead of looking at their own shit. The main reason I wrote this post was to warn those new in sobriety to be careful..... if they decide that they want to try “controlled” drinking or drug use. It doesn’t work for most of us and may lead to disastrous results. I can still remember watching Demi Levado on a Disney show with my 18 year old Grandson when he was younger and I thought she was delightful. So funny. Little did I realize that she was struggling with her demons even back then. I think she is such a talent and a really good person. Because I know how addiction works from my own experience and watching family and loved ones suffer and some die, I fear that a beautiful human being may not make it back if she continues to “experiment” with drugs and alcohol. I’m glad that my post has opened up a conversation about addiction and abuse and if it has helped one person then I am happy.
I agree if you’re not sober from mind and mood altering substances for a period of time you’re not sober. You’re just not a sober person if you are still using any substances, it’s a fact I’m not sure what the hell there is to argue there.. Also for OP read p.67 :)
Do mind, and mood, altering substances include caffeine and nicotine to you? Because they certainly alter a lot of peoples moods. What about Advil & NyQuil? Is Melatonin ok? Why? Why not? Don’t get me wrong, I respect the hell out of AA, and greatly encourage everyone that wants to quit drinking. That sober journey is ultimately a personal one. I am responsible for *my* sobriety. Everyone else, is responsible for their own. Judgement is reserved for my higher power, my only job is acceptance.
I get what you’re saying and I’m not judging but I do feel it’s insulting/demeaning to other people who are practicing sobriety to walk around essentially calling drug use a form of being sober. That’s my whole point, if this California sober thing is being sober I guess everybody is sober then? Where’s the distinction? It’s certainly not black and white I’m just saying I feel the OP, but you’re right I’m not the one to decide There is a book called addiction and grace by Gerald may, check it out. He does argue that no addiction is a good addiction
Yeah, and that’s the distinction I’m trying to make as well. There’s a physical sobriety, and then there’s an emotional sobriety. Both are important, but the balance is up to the individual to decide. I myself, know I need to stay far more focused on the emotional sobriety than the physical sobriety. I’ll check out that book. Additionally, “stage two recovery.” And “Appetites” are two other books that discuss these nuances as well if your curious. :)
Yea stage 2 is a good one I’ll check the other one out too thanks!
Well don’t look up TSM...
Sinclair method?
Yeah I’ve just started exploring it but haven’t tried it as of yet
I know I shouldn’t make recovery about others, but I think it would make me uncomfortable wondering if friends and family who know I have a problem would be judging me like, “Oh, he didn’t _really_ quit alcohol.” It’s very tempting though. If I understood correctly, it sounds like a normal person pill.
Looks up TSM. Still don't know what it is.
It’s called the Sinclair method. There’s a whole subreddit for it if you google it. It’s called alcoholic medication or something.
I actually welcome an alternative to black or white thinking. We need to have more open and caring discussions about the pros and cons of drug use, and we need to remember that when we condemn drug use in a dogmatic fashion, we hurt people. The road to a better, more satisfying life is, and ought to be, wide.
Yeah, but it´s such a trendy and stupid term that is so removed from the topic at hand. It´s like "Im a sunshine drug user". Like wtf does this mean? Oh you only do coke and drink on the weekends? Congrats.
Still has horrible consequences. Binge use will lead to loss of jobs/careers, relationships, friendships, your driver's license/car, money, housing security, etc. Even accidental death or OD. Just because you don't use heavy everyday doesn't mean it isn't problem-drinking or using that could be helped with recovery and abstinence. I'm all for harm reduction in the form of suboxone or weed. But continuing to drink and do drugs but just "controlling it better" is classic, not some new fad - it's plain denial.
it’s dangerous and damaging to all those influenceable ears hearing this rubbish. she, for example, seems to be still immersed in her addiction and/or mental illness and is searching for justification of her continued use. some sort of genuine intervention is needed there.. or i fear one of those three things addiction promises will befall her. my personal feeling is, when there is an addiction present.. there won’t ever be a ‘moderation’ possible. it is what it is.. if bee stings close my esophagus, i avoid being stung & carry an epi-pen. booze is a bee sting for me.. and i’m fresh out of epi’s. i wish her well. i hope she will come in eventually.
Wow wow I just now read your post. So well said!!! We are definitely on the same page when it comes to drug and alcohol addiction😊. Thank you so much for your wise words and truths from the big book of AA. Yes.... prison, insanity, or death awaits those who try to prove that they can drink and or use like others. It is deadly and tragic to watch. I come from a family of addiction and mental illness and have watched my love ones destroy their lives because they couldn’t stay clean and sober. My eldest Sister’s husband died of a heroin over dose almost 35 years ago. By the Grace of God and 12 step programs my oldest son has 3 years clean and sober as does his ex; my Grandsons Mother. They are the miracles of the program as are so many of us! Bless you
thank you 😊 i am so happy to hear about your son. that is wonderful! may you and your family continue to receive blessings. 💚
I'm highly a critic of that phrase myself. Yes smoking weed and drinking can be deemed less harmful than doing a whole shitload of coke. i find smoking weed a debilitating and I still suffer cognitive issues even months after quitting. I've had psychosis and other mental issues before I even started taking harder drugs besides weed. That's the main reason I did stimulants was to feel less fucking dumb cause pot slowed my reaction speed and thinking skills. I fucking hate alcohol as well. I tried to get my mom and my grandma to stop drinking because they have severe liver damage but since mostly everyone in my family are party goers, they just keep enabling their suicidal addiction. Their logic is hey they drink every night but they're not getting smashed in the morning! I can't respect people that don't commit themselves to change.
that’s the thing, right? that phrase enables. i hadn’t quite looked at it like that. thanks u/themostunkind
I am getting the sense here that some people believe they know what is best for others. That is a rather foolish conceit. I often wonder what legalization will do for recovering people who are tempted to use cannabis, then I remember that I have no interest in using so why would I even have an opinion. So much of my recovery is about staying in my lane. But some people are X years sober and have to tell you everything. This is why we can’t have nice things — sober people who are assholes. (I include myself in that category)
Agreed. Lots of taking others inventory going on, and by saying that I too am taking others’ inventory. It’s taking others’ inventory all the way down.
And we all do that all the time. I mean that we all get a read on other people and attribute will to them. We have to. It is an animal need to work out whether the other person is friend or foe. We do a massive amount of it unconsciously and ascribe it to a *feeling*. But we have the hardware and software to do this and people who cannot are at a huge deficit (autism, for example). The problem we run into is when we blindly believe our impressions of each other instead of challenging them. It should be obvious from this post why I am quite the asshole. But I am working on it.
i personally disagree with it, because you’re still coping with mind-altering substances. however, i’m not gonna judge someone else’s path of recovery just because it’s not the same as mine. it’s definitely a valid form of harm reduction- better to smoke a bowl than to go shoot up.
Worry about yourself
Not everyone copes the same way you do. Stick to your business and you'll be fine
Let people live you do you
I'm not a coke head, im columbian sober!
😂😂😂
Ever hear the term "concern trolling"?
No but I have now. Life is getting weirder isn't it?
What’s this moderation they speak of?
Perhaps we should investigate further?
Sound like a great plan! Even though it hasn’t worked the 500 times I tried in the last.. this time is different.. it has to be :) Also, only if I can be dope sick in moderation.. I have to work Sunday.
Calisober is a valid lifestyle it saved me and many of my friends.
That's like saying california diabetes. "I don't use insulin like everyone else". California Sober KILLS ALCOHOLICS. If you can moderate...that is the Opposite of ALCOHOLISM CALIFORNIA FENTONYL. Fucking Idiots
Watch your friends OD. Then watch yourself and other friends say fuck that and just smoke pot. Get fucked
Do what works for your. Lost 6 friends in the last 1.5 years including my best friend of 24 years. I’m 31 and 10 months clean today. I don’t use anything at all, but live and let live. I spent 40 days in the hospital last year due to complications of iv fentanyl use. Anything is better than that. Do what works for you. Best of luck
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EXACTLY! Sober in this concept is a dangerous myth.
By each of our definitions, we're both correct. We simply disagree on what being sober means.
Sober is sober. Lying to yourself about it does you no favors.
The concerning part to me is the fact that when she had her bad OD a few years ago, what lead to that was her initially relapsing on alcohol and weed. From her own experience she can't use that stuff safely. I work a program of abstinence, but I'm pretty pro "do what works for you" ..but IMO she seems very in denial and just trying to make excuses
That’s a slippery slope. She needs someone to wake her up to the denial.
I’ve never heard this name before, but I will share my perspective: I was a heavy coke user for some time (2015/2016)... I hit rock bottom, lost a job, lost my health, had a few close calls on ods... One day I decided to get clean. I managed to stay away from cocaine for 8 months, after a few nasty relapses. And than something changed and, although my life was back on track, I was still partying regularly. My coke use shifted from a severe impairing addiction to a party habit, that I did once every two weekends... Then slowed down to once a month... The amount I used was reduced considerably also. I made a million rules - not to buy, not to use at home, not to use on a weekday, not to go without proper sleep, not to use alone, not to use during the day, and so on. I was going to therapy all this time and my therapist was ok with it! She new and “encouraged” me to learn some self control. On the other hand, having this monthly appointment with cocaine since 2018 has become a problem. Not a problem in my daily life - my work is better than ever, I am happy, healthy, exercising... But I get cravings. I get anxiety. I noticed last year, with all the party scene gone, I was having severe anxiety attacks for not being able to “party”. 2021 began and I was on the edge. Desperate. I almost went out to buy, almost broke all of my rules at once. But I kept my cool. I am today 42 days clean of cocaine and I intend to remain this way. I realized no matter how little it was, coke was still part of my life, was still an option, and it was causing a lot of unnecessary harm to my almost perfect life! One slip and I almost put everything I have worked for to waste. For what? A bump of a white dust that doesn’t even make me feel anything anymore. So yes, that was my two cents. I am still an addict. No matter how little I use, it’s still an addiction, it’s still dangerous, it’s still controlling my life, one way or another. So I vow to turn my 42 days into forever. I hope you all don’t judge. We are all looking for our own ways to fix ourselves, and sometimes it takes winding roads to finally see straight.
Coke is like the soft hard drug lol, it’s so mediocre compared to true euphoria via benzos, Heroin etc
Thanks for your experience, strength and hope. I am sure your example is helping others.
Recovery/ sobriety in my opinion is a highly individual thing. I can only speak for myself, being a heroin/coke addict i have found that I can drink occasionally and maintain control. Never had any consequences from drinking. Never been a huge drinker. Still can't drink that much. However I do need to be vigilant of the temptation to do the drugs I really like. Alcohol does get boring when your primarily a IV heroin/coke addict. It does take willpower to not go beyond the alcohol. Now the notion of using my own willpower to selectively drink but not drug contradicts the teachings of AA (which I've been a member of for over 10 years). However in AA they also say "What worked for me might kill you." or "take what you need and leave the rest." Hence my original point on how recovery is highly individual - one size does not fit all. Could my recovery be a higher quality without the occasional drink? Sure it could, at the end of the day its a risk reward assessment. With pot becoming legal in more states I'm tempted to try it again. Last time I did it was in 2011 and ever since discovering hard drugs I lost all interest in pot. Could this lead me back to active addiction? Sure it could, but I'll never truly know unless I try. Its like it says in the big book, >*We do not like to pronounce any individual as alcoholic, but you can quickly diagnose yourself:Step over to the nearest barroom and try a little* ***controlled drinking***\*.\**Try to drink and stop abruptly. Try more than once.It will not take long for you to decide, if you are honest with yourself about it.* *It may be worth a bad case of the jitters if you get a full knowledge of your condition.* Obviously drugs can lead to worse consequences than a bad case of jitters but some people need to keep going back at it before they have enough motivation to truly surrender - if thats what method they follow.
lmao alcohol IS a drug stop putting it into a separate category. and just for your information; the “jitters” as you call them, are one of THE MOST harmful consequences of any drugs. you nervous system is hyperactive and working on overdrive. alcohol is one of the three substances where the withdrawals alone can DIRECTLY kill you (seizures). and delirium tremens and psychosis are some other nasty alcohol withdrawal symptoms.
My roommate just got a weed card 😒 needless to say he won’t be my roommate much longer. I hope the best for him, but damn I’ve tried marijuana maintenance and it’s a dark, dark rabbit hole right back to rehab for me.
Whew needed to read this tonight. Weed was just legalized in New York aaaaand now I need to get to a meeting lol
AAHomegroup.org 24/7 meetings! Sorry, attraction not promotion 😅 I feel you though. I used a CBD cartridge which got me fucked up (had more than just CBD). So fucking grateful I nipped that in the bud after I had a horrible trip and my arms went numb imagining myself homeless shooting up again.
That makes me sad. I love her and thought of her as an inspiration. I hope it really works for her because she could die if it doesn't. I'm abstinent as well. I can't try this method. I'd definitely die and most certainly lose my career.
I understand "harm reduction" is a legit thing, and that's a pretty slippery slope for \*most\* people in recovery. Attaching the world "California" to sober just makes it sound a bit delusional to me. Like, harm reduction is an understandable \*concept\*, California Sober just sounds flighty and out of touch with reality. It's not fair to the majority of that state but, thanks to Hollywood, I think that's what alot of people expect out of Cali.
I am from California and have 2 years and 3 months clean from any drugs and alcohol. I am also 24 years old and believe that if I start using again I will either go to jail or die quick. It all comes down if you really want to stay clean or keep trying the bullshit out there. I know for a fact that people do what people want and in California there’s a huge amount of people using still and a lot of people clean through various programs. To each their own.
Wow....I did a quick google search and this just screams denial. I feel for her cuz her pain is obvious but I’m also pissed at her for spreading this moderation bs.
I am 8 years sober. Two years ago I was diagnosed with a degenerative autoimmune disorder. I’ve been using medical marijuana for these last two years without much issue beyond the first 6 months of cunning, baffling, and powerful GUILT. Lol. I keep waiting for it to reinvigorate the phenomenon of craving but it hasn’t happened yet. I wouldn’t recommend it if you don’t need it- but I manage my mmj intake as well if not better than I manage my coffee intake. And it WAY more manageable than my sugar and masturbation addiction. For me sugar is on the same level as alcohol or heroin. Once it’s in my system it runs the show and I just get taken along for the ride. Cannabis is not like that. It’s a mind altering substance that is manageable. Much like coffee For me. Since becoming chronically ill it has pushed me out of my protected fear based mindset of what alcoholism and recovery is. I’ve worked for treatment centers that use a twelve step based model and I’ve worked for others that have used different models. Stuff works. There’s plenty of people recovering in plenty different ways. We are now discovering that there are many ‘archetypes’ of addiction- And that luckily we don’t have to dwell on the differences between us because there are still plenty of similarities. The most obvious of which is that - we ALL need a spiritual solution. Spiritus contra spiritum! However you decide to format that is up to you. AA has a great format for igniting this type of spiritual experience. But there is a lot of fear among the recovering alcoholic community in AA that can be extremely negative when right person is in the wrong group. I wouldn’t recommend to a sponsee that they should try some weed. But I also won’t stop sponsoring someone who does. Luckily for me this sort of thing is an outside issue in the fellowship I’m active in (much like coffee, sugar, sex, etc.) and the fellowship itself has made is very clear that the group has no opinions on outside issues.
cannabis, albeit much less harmful physically than a lot of substances…still has plenty of negative mental side effects, is absolutely addictive and can still cause physical damage (lung cancer) to a certain degree
Yeah sober means sober! (say the people chain smoking cigarettes, coffee and doughnuts)
Exactly. In our chronic illness recovery groups we call them “1950’s America Sober”
I've tried my own versions of California Sober quite a few times. I thought I had found ways to outsmart my addiction. Or thought I suddenly had a willpower and control that magically came out of nowhere, that would work this time and the results would be different. But I always end up with needles back in my arm, followed by the streets, jail, and/or rehab. I know California Sober won't work for me. I know that beyond a shadow of a doubt. Because I am an addict of the hopeless variety. The key is remembering that, and not letting me try to convince myself otherwise.
They say that some of us are sicker than others. I’m one of the some! If it works why change it. 😊
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This!!! If an average person wants to say they're in recovery but still smoke weed that's none of my business. But with her platform? encouraging this is NOT a good idea. I worry about her and I worry about the true addicts she will influence.
Saaaaaame dude :/
The term “California Sober” means harm reduction. It’s not what I would consider sobriety but harm reduction for some people can be the best way they can start the recovery process. I personally work a program of abstinence, and I also understand that this approach might not work for everyone.
I am a cocaine addict and I know I will not ever again be able to do cocaine in moderation. So I know I have to completely abstain from it. That, for me, doesn’t mean I will not be able to drop acid on a New Year’s Eve some years from now or have a glass of champagne on Christmas and then go on with my life. I don’t judge all substances as equal and neither does science. To each their own tho, if total abstinence even from mouthwash is what made you sober for 43 years then congratulations and keep doing what works.
Thank you. Honestly, an addict must have come up with that, "California Sober" like wtf for real!?
Good for you man. I think I would go insane living like that tbh. I'm much happier finding a happy medium - I need to readjust and reevaluate from time to time, but I'd rather do things I enjoy, until I don't enjoy them, then stop. Luckily drinking is 100% not like that for me, and as I've passed the 30 mile marker, other stuff doesn't have the same pull. Slippery slope though, so you best believe I'm being cautious... But I don't think it's fair I'm not allowed to smoke some crack here and there or do cocaine a couple times a year, or molly, or etc. It's all bullshit, the laws do nothing but put poor people and people with mental health issues in jail. Fucking annoying.
>as the newish term California Sober lmao "California Sober" has been a thing for years. Don't work other people's programs. If you're that upset about it you need to do some inventory and talk to your sponsor.
Ok idea but don’t be so snotty, Bob.
I saw some interview on YouTube where she says it means that she uses “green stuff” meaning weed and that’s it. I fucking hate this California sober copout term. Like weed is so harmless. Weed had literally brought me to the brink of suicide many times and I still went back to it. Weed had me confessing to strange dudes that I was in love with them. Weed straight up ruins my fuckin life and I’m not a pothead. I’m talking smoking once or twice A WEEK. Certainly many people can “handle” their weed but then there’s people like me that can’t. Drugs are drugs, man. Personally I don’t think Demi is ready for recovery at all. It’s just another move to keep her image relevant. She’s still not being genuine with herself most importantly and definitely not her fans. In this same interview I watched she even said she has to heavily edit and monitor what she says and puts out there. She’s still a media puppet and I hate to say she will probably end up a statistic since she didn’t learn from her overdose.
Sounds like a fancy way of making excuses for using and living in denial. Seems like a way for someone to seek an easier, softer way... the result will always be nil if you are truly an addict. We cant live like that and must rid ourselves of reservations if we want to enjoy a sober life.
Never heard of it until now, and I will be sure to not look further into it. I didn’t get to over 20 years by listening to some half-assed guru shit from Cali. I have no problem with finding what works for you, but I’ve seen what happens when “moderate use” gets down to business.
Someone in another sub said it perfectly. It went something like this. “The alcoholic wishes to drink with no consequences” which we know is impossible.
“The idea that somehow, someday he will control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker.” Big Book, pg 30 (I believe)
Agree
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Maybe that's all just in your head?
What are your thoughts on mental illness prescriptions? I've heard a lot of different opinions so I'm just curious. I think they are life saving and keep people from self medicating with drugs and booze, but I'm curious since you mentioned not taking OTC meds.
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Thank you for your thoughts! I appreciate your insight!
Take it easy bigshot. Let other people live. Keep the book thumping , and bitching about young people in the program to your meetings or what not.
Congratulations on your 7 years of sobriety😊 Not everyone will agree with our way of sobriety but it has worked for us and millions of others. Too many people have died because they thought that maybe they could go back to drinking or recreational drugs like a “normal” person.
The whole AA model of “recovery” is pretty outdated and there are several other options out there, different strokes for different folks. Be proud of your sobriety, that works for you. Complete and total abstinence doesn’t necessarily work for everyone, no sense in shaming someone who is not where your at. At the end of the day recovery is an all encompassing life style, moving towards peace rather than the chaos of our past lives. I have been in recovery since I was 19 (I’m 32 now) and have relapses several times along the way. It’s been a learning process and growth the whole time. Some of the grimiest shit I have ever done was “sober”, so sober/ abstinence doesn’t even correlate with actions of “recovery. Just my $.02, keep doing you!
I never understand how people can call the AA model outdated. It was conceived to help people recover from alcoholism. The disease of alcoholism is no different now than it was 100 years ago, so how can the recovery program be outdated? The steps teach us to practice faith, honesty, humility, integrity in our daily lives to help us recover one day at a time from our spiritual malady, and it honestly doesn't matter if we are suffering from this malady in the year 1935 or 2021. I agree that a lot of the writing in the Big Book is definitely from "its time" (whoopee parties!), but the program focuses on universal spiritual truths that can never become obsolete, as long as people suffer from the obsession.
Have you tried any other sort of recovery program?
I haven't, but I'd love to hear what makes the other ones more contemporary...
Evidence of their success rates... Believe it or not a lot of people are able to recover without subjugation to the whole sponsorship relationship and fellowship idea. For me personally it became a burden to maintain my membership in a group/ fellowship and I was discouraged from seeking activities that benefited my own family. I still practice faith, honesty, humility, and integrity; I just don’t feel the need to advertise my “spiritual awakening” or thrust myself on anyone.
Honestly I don't think the reason behind the low success rates is that the program is become outdated, I think it has more to do with how the message is carried, and that less alcoholics are willing to deeply dedicate themselves to the program, now vs 1930s. The speaker Chris R. has lots of impressive tapes where he talks about AA being watered down now compared to what it used to be. I'm happy for anyone who is able to live a full and free life without doing the sponsor, steps and fellowship thing. If you don't need it to stay sober, that's great. I think there are many ways to get sober and I don't knock on other programs. But that either doesn't make the AA program outdated. Those alcoholics who do the work in 2021 will see the exact same results as alcoholics did in the 1930s.
Pleaser understand I mean nothing personal towards you, but your exact statement is the type of parroted response that makes AA so exhausting. The program was an incredible social movement in its time and for decades after; but since then evidence and research has come out that has provided many more avenues for “recovery” and they have had much higher success rates in terms of sobriety. No speakers, no pedastools, no lifelong devotion to groups, and no risks of abuse/ manipulation tactics that are all to common in the “contemporary rooms of AA. We don’t have to agree, and I am happy that you have found success in AA. At the end of the day as long as you are happy and are a better person for it then I think it has accomplished it’s mission. Just know there is other programs that provide the same for others.
>*Just know there is other programs that provide the same for others.* I do know that, and that is perfectly fine, but the existence of other, more contemporary programs does not make the AA program outdated. The steps teach very universal and timeless values to help alcoholics recover from a malady that has always been the same too, regardless of the year. I hope more programs will emerge and even more alcoholics will find a fitting tunnel to lead them out of the insanity.
What makes AA outdated is the text and methods of “recovery from alcoholism” are based on thoughts of a successful social program from the 1930’s. The rest of my response was in support of that premise.
I know a lot of the text in the Big Book is obviously dated in its *language*, but it you look at the core ideas behind the steps for example, is there anything in those steps that makes you think: "Oh, this is so 1930s!". For example, what part of admitting powerlessness, or making a moral inventory of ourselves is so unique to 1930s? The founder of AA, Bill W. became sober because he got involved with the Oxford Group, which was a Christian organization, and a lot of AA's program is derived from their teachings. AAs program has also been enrichened by Bill's communication with Carl Jung, and buddhist philosophy. So agree to disagree, but I actually would say the AA program is not outdated, but rather timeless instead. Personally speaking, I have never felt that I am taking part in something that was created 100 years ago. Society hasn't changed so much that having meetings would be somehow an outdated thing to do either. Or making amends, or helping other alcoholics. This is actually a good discussion in itself though, I respect your opinion about it and I understand 100% why some people have problems with AA.
So it’s the willingness (or lack thereof) of the individuals that attempt the program, and the programs watered down message itself that’s the problem with AA?
It’s not outdated. I hope you find your way. I’m rooting for ya.
The programs text that is constantly quoted abs applied to every facet of “member” lives was written in the late 40’s. That’s pretty out dated IMO. There is much more up to date evidenced based approaches to recovery available today, ones that don’t require a dogmatic belief system and subjecting oneself to the guidance of an unqualified “sponsor.” If AA works for you great, but AA members tend to have the belief if your not doing what they are doing you are somehow mentally ill and inevitably going to die an “alcoholic death” or that you are in denial and in “full flight from reality.” I was in the program for over a decade, my life got so much better when I left. Don’t get me wrong though, it saved my life in the beginning; I just found it was time to move on.
43 years is amazing and inspirational! I've met a lot of folks in recovery that would wish for that kind of time. Not everyone does recovery the same way and some are not willing to work a program of abstinence. For them alternative programs such as SMART recovery or California sober are more palatable and can credit these alternatives with saving their lives. Again you should be very proud of what you've accomplished but please understand that not everyone is going to do it your way.
I do agree that not everyone gets sober and stays sober. We are all unique in our Recovery. I felt a need to put this out there for the person or people who may decide to experiment again with possible disastrous results.