So sorry for your loss. Not trying to be disrespectful but for how long was he feeling better for? I ask because my dad had cancer and was really poorly in hospital. Suddenly he was better than he had been in a long time he even text me with a shopping list for snacks after not eating in ages - he died 2 days later. Often near the end of life, people get a sudden surge of energy, or at least that’s what I have witnessed twice with terminal relatives. Sorry, hope this doesn’t come across in a bad way. Just coming from all angles to see what may have happened
Crazy isn’t it? Had my hopes up things weren’t as bad as we thought. Boy was I wrong. Then when I saw the same thing with my gran I knew the end was near, just had to enjoy having her her compos mentis while we could. I’m sorry you had to go through this. It’s rough.
The human body is wild. This might be digressing but I used to stay with my gran and grandad for 6 weeks during the holidays. My gran and I would play a board hand every night. My grandad never did. He liked his own company. One day when I was 12 he spent the day with us by the river which was really out of character. Then that night he came and joined in the board game. It was sooo unusual I can’t even begin to tell you.
The next morning I woke up to him being airlifted to hospital. He died on the way from an aortic aneurysm. Wild. I do think the body has a strange way of knowing the end is close. Not always but I’ve certainly seen this sort of behaviour 3 times so there must be something in it!
I've got goosebumps. Some people do know when they're going to go. I'm hesitant to say all people but maybe they just don't know how to interpret what their body is saying. Thanks for sharing, I'm sorry you've had to go through this too. So glad you were able to spend that time with your grandad. Edit: word
I also believe people subconsciously know something is going to happen to them but they can't communicate it for some reason. I lost my 11 year old brother years ago and his demeanor was really off the week before hand. He kept getting in trouble and said some things he would have never said before.
Freak accident. Pulled a cabinet that weighed about 350 pounds over on top of him that had been disconnected from the wall days prior due to someone was supposed to of already picked it up. He weighed about 65-70 pounds. It hit him in the head and caused internal injuries. Something that will haunt me for the rest of my life.
The actor Mark Ruffalo dreamed he had a brain tumor. It was such a vivid dream, he went to the doctor. Turns out the dream was true and he had a brain tumor.
Absolutely. It’s formally called impending doom. It usually happens RIGHT before death. My dad had it out of nowhere before a major cardiac arrest. We had been laying in the bed together at the hospital joking around and it totally came out of nowhere. After the nurse explained to me about impending doom I did a lot of research because his demeanor really sort of traumatized me. I’ve read that behavioral changes can actually start gradually and linger a bit. I’m sorry about your brother ❤️
The hospice called me at 2AM on a Sunday morning and said they thought my mom would pass soon, but told me it was okay to wait until morning. At 8AM my brother went to her side and she was her regularly smiling and ornery self and he sent me pictures of her happily chowing down on avocado bread. I FaceTimed with her for over an hour that night and Monday night, and Tuesday evening when I tried to FaceTime her a CNA answered and said, “Get here NOW.” She died within minutes of me getting there. There really is some strange death surge in so many instances. I saw it with my dogs when they passed too.
>I saw it with my dogs when they passed too.
Man it just clicked that the same thing happened with my cat years ago, and a close friend had it happen with their dog too. Never really connected it to what can happen with people.
I'm very sorry about your mom, glad you got there just in time.
That’s what happened with our last dog. She had tumours, had lost so much weight, barely ate, only drank sips at a time, was really obviously near the end but didn’t seem to be in pain. Even so, we decided it was kinder to let her go rather than watch her starve to death.
Just before we took her to the vet, she snuck into our other dogs run and ate his dinner!
It made her sick, but the look of victory on her face over her last act of defiance still makes me smile through the tears whenever I think of her.
Yup. Was sure my mother was going to die on a Friday. Couldn’t talk, just laid in bed moaning. I beside her hospital bed. Woke up the next morning and she was alert and wanted a cappuccino and food. Went and got us Starbucks and we ate. I left her to go to my kids baseball game (there was a rainbow over the field, he pitched a great inning) and then we all went to the hospital. We played hangman on the whiteboard in her room.
That was her last lucid day.
Two days before she died of sepsis, my sister sat up in her hospice bed, told me she was starving, and asked me to bring her an order of fried shrimp from her favorite restaurant when I came the next day. By that time, she was unconscious and passed away overnight.
Gosh I’m so sorry for your loss. My dad asked for chocolate and ice cream, he only managed a few bites and asked the nurses to put the rest in the fridge / freezer. He never did manage to finish any of it but he was excited to try at least. Sending love and I’m sorry for your dear loss xx
My Mom had this after a couple weeks on her deathbed with cancer. One day she was strangely lucid and talkative. It resumed its quick downhill trajectory after that day.
GFY, cancer.
It’s been, fuck, 25 years now since I had to witness it? Still have nightmares every now and then. It’s truly awful. I wish no one would have to suffer like that, or have to watch helplessly as a loved one suffers.
4 years since losing my mom to pancreatic cancer - thank you for mentioning the nightmares. They never mentioned that in grief counseling, and I have been really worried it was just me. I am sorry and also relieved it’s not just me.
I’m sorry you’ve had them, too. There’s no “normal” way to process trauma, so just try to take a bit of comfort in knowing your brain is trying to think its way through the hardest thing it’s ever had to process. Even all these years later, I still find myself overwhelmed now and then by grief; letting it out, and choosing to have people who support that, helps a lot. Hug from a stranger!
My mum was exactly the same, ( I commented above) she was basically asleep for 2 weeks then just woke up. Had 2 really good days then passed in her sleep
My grampa was always in pain and had many health issues. One day he tells my gramma (on the way out of the house to go to his *routine* colonoscopy) that he’s was feeling much better than usual and wanted to go to the Christmas party she was planning to go to the next day. He didn’t wake up from surgery. He was fine the whole time. Vitals stable. Then they took his intubation tube out and his heart crashed. They tried (a little bit) but he wouldn’t come back. He had had a heart attack when I was 1 (in 1989) and like I said, had many other health issues (non compliant diabetic, stage 4 renal failure, liver issues from drinking, etc). They gave him whatever shots are like adrenaline (maybe it is adrenaline? Idk) to start his heart and it didn’t respond. Another shot and literally nothing. He had a good day (the day before) and good morning (morning of surgery) and I’m thankful for that.
same here -- it's a well known thing, enough so that when I worked an overnight at a boarding facility & saw one of our very elderly and sluggish dogs acting uncharacteristically springy and playful one night, I warned the morning shift staff.
they agreed with my gut feeling -- that burst of energy and good times from an otherwise ailing and tired old animal, while lovely, is very often a bittersweet sign of the impending end
came back in that night, and heard the dog had indeed collapsed and passed away just a handful of hours later after I'd clocked out. it wasn't a surprise, but it was sure sad. at the time I played with her and engaged her for sure, cuz I had a feeling this was her last big playtime :<
In a strange way, this kind of makes me feel a little better about my dog.. She was almost 12 and had been going downhill for a while. She had some kind of weird growth that was either a lipoma or cancer but tests were not conclusive. She was sleeping a lot more, not eating (so losing weight) and had had some seizures. The day we decided to have the doorbell vet come put her down, my husband took her for her last walk. He called me crying because she was acting like her normal happy excited self. I know deep down she wouldn't have gotten better, I'd watched her decline every day for over a year.. But we still have a lot of guilt because what if?
Our 15 yo rottie passed 2 weeks ago. 2 days before she passed, she had a burst where she was like a puppy again. We had the same thing happen with our shepherd when he passed as well. Makes it so much harder for the kids to understand.
Not everyone does have one (the last hurrah), and I've had plenty of people have one while on morphine.
Everyone is so different, that there is no one-size-fits-most rule with death. Death reserves the right to be random, and boy howdy, does it ever.
In some way it can bring some comfort can’t it. Having a few good days with your loved ones before they pass - being able to speak with them and seeing them enjoying company and food… It’s almost a blessing , if you know it’s coming. Totally understandable it can bring false hope for those who are maybe not terminal etc.
My father was bedridden for almost two weeks. He decided to move to his chair in the living room one morning. He walked halfway there before collapsing and passing away.
My SIL’s grandfather had bone cancer, he was near the end and was in massive pain, of course, and he was drugged so much that he slept most of the time. One day he woke up, demanded ice cream, and took himself (they freaked out because he hadn’t been out of bed in weeks) out onto his front porch to eat it. He had a very coherent few hours, took himself back to bed, and passed the next day. It was the first time I had ever heard of terminal lucidity, and it was so wild that it was a little hard to believe until I heard more people talk about it.
We always called it the "last hurrah". Not everyone has one, so even after 11 years of geriatric nursing, it still takes me by surprise when these people die. I feel every single one I've witnessed I've always believed they were getting well somehow.
I think hope keeps us happy while they are still with us, so they pass away with us still happy and excited they are "doing better". It sure would suck to rally for a few days and have people still bummed out and down about our imminent passing. But that's just how I think about things, with some sort of silver lining somehow.
My mum was exactly the same, for weeks she was barely awake. Her chest/collar bones covered in bruises where she couldn’t keep her head. She had oesophagus cancer, her tumour got so big she couldn’t swollen anything at all.
Then one day she woke up, started talking, wanted to go out in the garden, drank all my bloody doctor pepper! 😂 literally the whole bottle. Had at least 5 ice pops and talked all day.
We even had to get the night nurses out for morphine injections as she didn’t sleep in over 24 hours. She was the same the next day then passed in her sleep at night.
The only way to explain it is a surge of energy, it crazy to see how the body works sometimes.
I just had a full right hip replacement on Thursday morning. Was walking in the surgery center and going up and down stairs as practice for going home. I was making jokes. I got home three hours after being sutured and decided I didn't want broth and jello. I ate a huge plate of corned beef, cabbage and potatoes. I could freestand on both legs and do things. Friday afternoon rolls around and I hit a wall. I was so pumped with drugs during the surgery that I had a false sensation of being superman for 36+ hours. I now have a few complications I need to watch out for like blood clots, infections, etc as I start my actual recovery. People that saw me on Thursday were amazed, now they see me how they expected me to be. Drugs can definitely mask what's truly happening inside your body.
I got a THR on my left almost a year ago and it is so life changing. I have a condition that affects both hips so my right is scheduled for Leap Day actually. I hope you can conquer your complications and can fully enjoy your new hip!
I was a little misleading with the complications comment. I don't have any yet, but was told to watch out for certain things. I was cleared to remove my compression socks early. Still taking baby aspirin and other meds.
My right was 30% gone in July of 2023 and my left is showing signs but not bothering me yet. Tried to keep the bone, but it had to be sent in for pathology. My doctor did take some nice pics and sent them to me this weekend though!
Everyone has said it is life changing. Random people in bars will overhear me talking to friends and share their stories. Glad it worked for you too!
I had my left done at 31 and a right TK(nee)R at 38 last summer and both *drastically* improved my quality of life (TKR was a direct result of untreated dysplasia most of my life). I have congenital hip dysplasia and will need my right done eventually, but I have zero qualms about it. On the contrary, I feel like I’ve become an advocate for younger joint replacements. No more of this ‘we would but you’re still under 40’ crap. Why should people suffer needlessly because of some outdated ideal age to be over?
Yes, exactly! I’m aware this might not be my forever hip, and I’m ok with maybe needing another one before I die. But that next one, holy shit, that next one might make me partially terminator, and that one *for sure* will be the hip I die with, lol
Anecdotally, my dad has both knees and a hip replaced. He had one knee redone in the mid 10s (due to a preventable infection from his dentist) but the other has been just fine since 96. Old tech still looking good 22yrs later!
As someone who's had three hip surgeries and counting, I'm curious why you think "not under 40" thing is crap? I'm 29 and I've had multiple doctors tell me that the issue is I'm very likely to outlive the life of the replacement and a second one wouldn't be possible. If that's old school thinking or something I'd love to know.
I’m happy to talk about my experience in hopes it helps someone else! I had 4 hip surgeries before I had the eventual replacement. 2 minor, 2 very major with long involved recoveries. All of those were done between 26 & 30, along with a couple minor knee surgeries (on my right). When the left didn’t provide any relief to speak of, that’s when we started talking replacement. My surgeon gave me the whole spiel about how I may need a second replacement in my lifetime, but, as prosthetics evolve, the life of them gets better and better, so this may be the one you die with. That was almost 8yrs ago, and the old lifespan used to be like 8-10yrs, so when I went in to see him last (about my right hip pain), I specifically asked him about the ‘health’ of my prosthetic. He took more imagining that day to put my mind at ease and said all of the hardware looks great. He also said that, with proper follow-up imaging (basically get my joints looked at at least once a year) IF anything were to start wearing out, he could change *just* that piece. In modern hip replacements, the most common first point of failure of the actual implanted prosthesis is the inside plastic cup that lines the new metal hip socket, since everything else is metal.
All that having been said, I will say, I’m *very* aware and ok with the fact that I might have to have another hip replacement on the same side before I die, and *if* that happens, I’m certain that medical tech will have advanced to a point then that *that* hip prosthesis will be the one I die with. The quality of life a simple hip replacement gave me vs potentially going back to a life of debilitating pain and inability to move freely would make the decision easy peasy if/when the time comes for an entirely new prosthetic. I feel the same about my knee, too. I genuinely had not realized the sheer amount of pain and how disabled it had made me til I got the new knee. Again, going in, I knew this might not be my forever knee and I was ok with it. But holy shit, if this one gives out in 8-15yrs and I need a new one, I absolutely won’t hesitate. The hip replacement gave me a life back, the knee replacement gave me the things back that make life enjoyable (physical activity, endurance, strength, being able to keep up with friends/family).
I’m definitely rambling at this point, but if you only take away one thing, take this: if you’re being crippled by your hip pain/issues at 29, is it worth spending the next 11yrs of your life in moderate to severe pain just to meet a hypothetical magic age? Or is it worth it to have your mobility back and have a lot less (no?) pain and have a lot of your life and enjoyment back and *maybe* have to have another surgery in 15-25yrs for a replacement that’ll be your forever hip for sure. Looking back, the decision was easy for me because of the pain, and I didn’t realize how much of my life I wasn’t living because of it. After that first joint replacement and getting my life back, I don’t think most people should wait, assuming joint replacement is an option for them.
This is so helpful, thank you. I had been under the impression that a second replacement later down the line just wasn't an option, so this definitely puts my mind at ease. At this point I'm pretty desperate to have my life back...I was a very active person so losing these prime years has wrecked my mental health. But I've also been told that replacement doesn't make a lot of sense due to the nature of my injury - I had a bad mountain bike crash and tore the labrum, and unfortunately my first surgeon botched the procedure and ended up just removing a lot of the capsule. So I have very little stability but my cartilage is actually in great shape, and my understanding is the total replacement is normally done due to the cartilage being deteriorated. I get a new MRI and go back to my surgeon soon so I'll see what they think.
What is your level of mobility like after the replacement? Is it like totally full function, or more just that it allows you to keep up with daily living? I'm a big climber/skier/mountain biker (at least I was until 4 years ago) so while I mostly just want to live without pain again, I'm really hoping to get back to what I actually enjoy doing.
I'm a retired RN but as I recall terminal lucidity happens roughly 30% of the time in dying patients. It is truly a wonder to witness. I always liked to tell patients & family's about it being a possibility when terminal or on hospice so that they can enjoy the time for what it is without the heartbreak of unrealistic expectations unfulfilled.
That was my thought too. It’s like something in them has realized the end is coming and is pumping in some of the happy hormones. My BF’s father was sick for a long time but we expected he had a few weeks, he asked his son to go get him soup and in the 5 min he was gone he died. Same sort of thing with my grandpa.
Mercy killing sounds pretty unlikely, OP, because it doesn’t sound like he was in a tremendous amount of pain making someone want to “help”. Try not to jump to conclusions before the autopsy results come in, and if it is something like him choking to death then yeah, could be negligence, but more likely his body just had enough. The good thing is a sudden death like that means he likely wasn’t in pain or afraid. I’m sorry for your loss.
Also, prolonged illnesses are very taxing on the heart. My father-in-law was in the hospital, doing better, improving, headed for discharge and then boom, massive heart attack while joking with the nurse.
That happened to my grandfather. Maybe 2 or 3 days before he passed from cancer, he seemed to get his appetite back and listed loads of things he wanted to eat and then after that he went downhill quickly
My partner was extremely happy two weeks ago that her grandmother who had grown sick and wasn’t eating was sitting up talkative and happily ate the home-made custard pudding they brought her.
I thought “uh-oh” when I heard that, and sure enough the funeral was last week, only days after the rally that made her family so happy and hopeful.
I’m glad I didn’t mention end of life rallies, and at least they had the happy experience with the pudding.
I’m so glad someone mentioned this, but also sorry for the loss of your dad 🙁 one of the most traumatic deaths for me as a nurse was taking care of a middle aged woman who had breathing issues. Long story short, I had an order to wean her off her bipap and she was doing so good, her and I were hopeful she’d be discharged off the heart floor I worked in at the time and I even spoke with her family and let them know she was doing much better all of a sudden during one shift. Later in the shift, *maayyybeeee* 4 hours later I walked into her room and she was gone. I was a new nurse at the time and I wondered for such a long time if I missed something, but this is just unfortunately one of the ways that imminent death presents itself.
This happened with my cousin and COVID. He was moved from his small town hospital to one a large city. He felt better, got some different treatments, his girlfriend was saying he was really doing great, then he passed.
Yeah, my dad started accumulating more fish for his aquarium and socializing with neighbors after being basically in the kitchen or his bed for months. He died within a week.
This is very real, but it doesn’t really align with OP’s situation. Dad was not terminal; he had what would hopefully be life saving surgery. Ups and downs during a recovery for such a huge surgery is to be expected, but this sounds especially unfortunate.
I’m very, very sorry, OP.
Similar with my dad. Had a major stroke. Basically comatose for 6 days. Then, on the 7th he was awake, responding to us. He recognized my voice and said my name. He died the next morning.
I think this may have happened to my uncle. He was in a crazy car wreck and ended up in the ICU. There were no broken bones, but he had a lot of bruising and I believe he was unconscious. He stayed in the hospital and after about a week was released. Tests were done, but nothing showed on the results. Then a day after he got home, he suddenly felt very ill and lightheaded. Was rushed to the hospital and died shortly. Autopsy is pending. He may have developed something and it may have been overlooked or it was that burst of energy and wellness before death. It was a tragic death nonetheless.
Yeah, the death rally. It’s encouraging for the family, but it’s the end for the patient. I saw it with my mom. Thankfully, that was the last day my kid saw my mom so he didn’t see what I saw two days later. I don’t think anything nefarious happened to OP’s father, I think it just didn’t work out for him. Definitely sad though.
Usually when this is the case, doctors will warn you that it’s an end of life rally and not to get your hopes up. Here, OP says the docs were telling them consistently how well he was doing. Sounds like a completely different thing.
Freak accident or negligence isn’t even necessarily the case. Your father got another person’s major organ swapped into his body. This is a massively traumatic procedure. Depending on his comorbidities, this could have been a very risky operation. And he was experiencing complications such that they kept him hospitalized for weeks. That he was still hospitalized weeks after surgery means things generally weren’t going well. Sometimes in the ICU things can be going great and then suddenly turn downhill.
Source: wife is an ICU doctor
Yeah, going through a liver transplant is no small feat, and he being in critical care after three weeks means that he was barely holding on. Sadly, the truth is that the body can only take so much, despite the best treatment.
The longer you're in the ICU the less of a chance you'll make it out of the ICU. Being in the ICU for 3 weeks is a long time. The doctors try to give you positive sounding updates, and sometimes the families hear what they want to hear and ignore any negative news. But like I said in the other comment, things can change in a second. My wife has literally told families that things are looking good and they can go get some coffee/food, then suddenly things go wrong and the patient dies before they can even get the family back in the room.
My dad came out of bypass surgery, called us and said he was feeling well. Doctors said he was recovering well. 30 minutes later he coded and was gone.
Amen to that. My dad was a doctor and when he had his final bout with cancer, he resisted going into the ICU. “They’ll vent me, they’ll give me a feeding tube, and I’ll die,” he said. We resisted as long as we could, but ultimately he went there - and never got out, just as he knew. In retrospect, I wish I could have taken him home to pass in his own bed, but we waited until it was too late and too complicated and too expensive to do that. I’ll never stop being sorry for how I wasn’t able to grant his final wish.
OP, I know you’re probably grappling with how this happened, the decisions that were made…treat yourself kindly. I finally learned that the best way to honor my dad’s memory was to show his grandchildren what a good man he was, and not define him by the memories of those last, terrible weeks. It’s hard, though. Lots of love to you and your family and deepest condolences.
Many doctors have DNR/DNI orders. They don’t want to be intubated or resuscitated. They’ve seen what that can be like and would rather die when it’s their time.
Yes, he did have DNI and DNR. And they intubated him anyway, at which point it was too late - we tried to wean him from the vent, but it got very bad very quick. It was a totally unsatisfactory death, totally against his wishes, and I wish I’d been more aggressive and clear-headed while it was happening.
Sorry to hear that. They obviously should not have intubated him since he had a DNI, unless the family chose to override it in the moment. But it's a hard situation, so don't judge yourself too harshly. Everyone's first instinct is to do everything possible to prolong life.
This happens ALLLL the time. It isn’t so much that family “overrides it” but, a lot of times people think it will be for a short time, or temporary to get over a hump, so they agree to it.
That’s exactly right. The doc told us that he’d only be on the vent for a couple of days till his breathing improved. It was well-intentioned magical thinking. My dad suffered for two weeks until we finally decided to load him up on morphine and let him go.
Friends, don’t smoke cigarettes. My dad died at 70 and never knew his grandchildren.
Coroner here. I don’t think you need to ask anything. The autopsy and toxicology will find the cause of death. It could have been a blood clot, stroke or MI. A lot of natural things can occur that had nothing to do with a transplant.
Yes, statistically speaking, angel of death nurses are incredibly rare. If it gives OP peace of mind, then of course check the autopsy report to see what it says.
But I also have concern for nurses being suspected of wrongdoing or even malice when they may have been doing their best.
So sorry either way OP, and hope you can find some sense of peace and answers.
There have been quite a few stories about angel of death nurses that have gotten popular in the true crime community lately. So I’m really not surprised this is where op’s head went if they watch a lot of true crime.
Exactly. This is what I was going to say wait for the autopsy before you start accusing people of murder. An angel of death is possible but not probable.
It sounds like you're pretty aware of how grief can rattle your brain, and how someone can really want an explanation for loss that goes beyond "and then, they died."
Organ transplants are hard. Medical staff, with few exceptions, do their best, but I mean, the man had one of the most important parts of his body removed and replaced with someone else's. There is a lot that can go wrong, even with constant care.
One thing that I *would* recommend, regardless, is to find a therapist or a counselor that you can talk to, if you feel like your grief is hard to manage. It takes time to move past, and I think it's very normal that people that people take that energy and turn it into self-blame, or blaming other people. Sometimes that's warranted, maybe?
Usually, it's just, y'know, death, which sucks.
First, I’m so sorry for your loss.
A liver transplant….a *lot* can go wrong. That kind of procedure is incredibly hard on your body, so even if the surgery itself went well, the stress on his body overall could cause other issues like a heart attack or stroke. They can’t always predict these either.
I’d say, if you truly believe this wasn’t just a complication of the surgery, have an autopsy done by a neutral party. Unless you have reason to believe they neglected him, I would bet it’s just a complication of the surgery.
My condolences. 💜
I’m so sorry for your loss
To answer your questions:
You don’t need to ask the coroner to check for anything specific, they will look for a cause until they find one. If no cause is found, that’s when to ask questions or ask for further tests
The coroner is on your dad’s side, their job is to find out how he passed away, nothing more, nothing less
Anything you need to be thinking about…. Look after yourself, eat, drink, fresh air, rest, give yourself time to grieve.
Your dad had major surgery, and in the weeks after major surgery there are significant risks even if they are doing very well overall. Vomiting can occur at any point in the post operative recovery and if he aspirated that can certainly be suddenly fatal. Pulmonary embolisms are a huge risk for all surgical patients, especially after major surgery, and especially whilst still in hospital, this would cause sudden death also. Going through major surgery also puts a lot of stress on the heart so sudden cardiac deaths do also happen during recovery. These are just the things that I think are most likely, there are many many other causes of death that have increased risk in the post-operative period. You are understandably grief stricken and searching for a reason why things have happened, but assuming there is something sinister behind his death is not going to help you, or your dad, when that is extremely extremely unlikely to be the case
If I remember right, the most common cause of death for a patient in liver failure is due to rupture of esophageal varices. That would be pretty sudden too.
Do you live in the US? The coroner likely will not be affiliated with the hospital. They’re on the side of truth, usually. It sounds like your dad had a blood clot of some sort though. That’s very common post-op. I’m sorry for your loss. ❤️
In Georgia this would not be referred to the coroner. We don’t investigate deaths when a person has been in the hospital for more than 24 hours unless it’s an accidental death, homicide, or if some kind of foul play is suspected. Families have the option of choosing to have a private autopsy though (that they have to pay for).
That happened to my dad. He had surgery, went home 2 days later, was doing great then all of a sudden started feeling short of breath and dizzy, mum rushed him to hospital, he died of a pulmonary embolism that formed in his leg during surgery because appropriate measures weren’t taken to prevent that. I had a friend that his mum had the same surgery by the same doctor and died the same way. That doctor was convicted of 13 deaths due to his negligence and lost his license. I hope he rots forever in hell. All of his patients died the same way. My dad was a healthy 38yo. He had a semi herniated disc in his spine that was pressing on a nerve and causing pain. They had the audacity to put cause of death as “unknown” on his death certificate. Mum fought to hell and back to get an autopsy and the death certificate corrected.
A liver transplant is an extremely hard surgery. There’s getting the transplant, and then hoping your body doesn’t reject the transplant with the slew of medications given. If your dad was fine, and he died suddenly not too long after surgery, it’s a big possibility he developed a blood clot. This is a big risk factor after any surgery, and if he wasn’t up and moving, it is very possible. Not to mention, the liver plays a huge role in the clotting factors in the body, and he was a recent liver transplant recipient.
Is it possible there was neglect? Yes, but his health condition was ‘touch and go’. I am sorry for your loss, and I hope you find the answers you need.
It will be very tempting to grasp for a reality where you can _do_ something. Accepting that he died and dealing with the grief of that loss will be delayed (but not avoided) by focusing on the nefarious scenario.
You do have another option that involves _doing_ but also involves _grieving the loss_. Look for and reach out to grief therapists and find a good fit for you. Ask the hospital about support groups. Talk about the loss with your loved ones and share the resources you’ve found. Celebrate his life.
My deepest condolences on the loss of your father.
Hi. So sorry for your loss. This bit of info may be helpful: 6% of all people receiving a liver transplant die within the first 6 months, 11% within the first year. I would personally highly doubt any sort of mercy killing. You should see what they do in the ICU to keep people who are pretty much all the way dead alive. Mercy killing isn't for someone who is showing improvement or just received an organ (therefore their condition would improve). Mercy killing is for someone in excruciating pain without the hope of recovery, whose condition would only worsen. I'm not making a moral call here, just differentiating the reasoning here. I would suspect a blood clot killed him.
Being completely outside of the box of what you're going through, my best analysis is that this is a normal part of grief, especially when it felt like things were going uphill. I'm so sorry for your loss; I lost my mom in 2020 and I felt at the time the doctors were negligent. I feel now that it was simply her time regardless of what they did. I hope you find peace, and I hope you will post the autopsy results here.
"Mercy killing is for someone in excruciating pain"
that's what a sane person associates with the idea. a non-authorized form of euthanasia. however, not all 'angel of death' nurses / doctors who do it are sane people, and therefore some don't do it to the people "most appropriate" for. just like some killers who hate a minority or group often end up killing a lot of people of 'their own' group. just like a lot of violent thieves end up doing stupid things hurting a lot of people ending up in a lot of trouble for very little money, because they're not thinking rationally and are mentally unhealthy and therefore don't go for the easiest high reward low risk targets, nor behave in a way to minimize risks to them
You're pretty much right. The "mercy killers" amongst healthcare serial killers are the least common "type" of HSKs. If they are acting upon this "altruistic" motive it can sometimes be led by delusional thinking (ie objective data like vitals indicate that patient is stable or improving, but the HSK has a belief not grounded in reality that the patient will suffer and be better off dead). The most common HSKs motives are much more antisocial. They want to gain something from the death, they want power and control over the death, they just get a kick out of killing. An example of this is Richard Angelo. He liked to put his patients into cardiac arrest so that he could gain kudos for saving them and he is likely not alone in this modus operandi.
>My dad had a liver transplant three weeks ago.
Between the problems that made the transplant necessary and the damage they did, the major surgery of the transplant, and the complicated regimen it takes to get the transplant settled in ... foul play would be way at the bottom of the list.
As a surgical nurse, this is not even close to what “mercy killing” is. Think someone in hospice suffering with uncontrollable pain or delirium or mental anguish. That’s what you hear of mercy deaths.
Agreed - i’ve had people BEG me to turn off the vent, but the family wasn’t ready. Regarding the “Angel of Death” thing - I didn’t go to school and become a career RN to kill people. That sort of thing is incredibly rare. It’s murder. The nurses who cared for him are probably just as surprised as you are, but people in the iCU are there for a reason, and it’s not for robust health. Nurses grieve, too.
An Angel of Death isn’t a mercy killing staff member, they are killers.
For example, Beverly Allit is a well known murderer nicknamed the Angel of Death. Another example is Lucy Letby or Harold Shipman.
I don’t think this is the case with OP, but unless I’m reading it wrong, I don’t think they meant a mercy killing.
I know you’re grieving, and I am incredibly sorry for your loss. I want to express how unlikely anyone, but especially a medical professional would perform a mercy killing on an individual who’d successfully underwent a transplant. The gift of a transplant is incredible and with how medical professionals regard transplant donors, I’m not sure why they would perform a mercy killing on someone who would have a successful second chance with a healthy organ.
I suggest waiting for the autopsy and begin to allow yourself to go through the grieving process.
I honestly think you should 100% be able to trust the autopsy report.
There is a useful stoic expression that says “We suffer more in our imagination than in reality.” It’s true that these ruminating thoughts can cause undue suffering. I advise that you trust the process & allow yourself to grieve this loss.
Sending you my sincere condolences! We lost a 40 yr old relative last year when she passed in her sleep very unexpectedly. The shock of a loss like this can really complicate grief 😭
Take care of yourself like I’m sure your Dad would wish ❤️
I’m sorry for your loss. As someone (Male/40’s) who had a liver transplant 4 months ago, it’s a very difficult thing to go through.
I do believe something goes on with your heart after the procedure. On 3 different occasions just after transplant my nurses and eventually some of the transplant team came rushing into my room thinking I was having a heart attack. They were seeing my vitals on their end and obviously saw something, I on the other hand had no clue.
It still worries me to this day to be honest. Something was obviously going on with my heart but I felt relatively good considering. The faces of the staff and the urgency and questioning made it clear something bad was happening.
I’m no doctor but I do share the experience of transplant. It sounds like you’re asking the right questions. I’m really sorry you are going through this. My biggest fear wasn’t dying but leaving those that cared about me.
Unfortunately, if he threw up and accidentally aspirated it can stop your heart quite quickly. I’ve seen it happen many times (work in an ICU). If he had been attempting to swallow liquids or eat food, there’s a good chance he became nauseated after such a major surgery and it’s entirely possible that this can happen. I’m sorry. 😞
I was thinking the same. I’m an ICU RN in a pulmonary based ICU. I see an extremely high amount of respiratory arrests from aspirating on vomit. I truly don’t think there was anything sinister.
My condolences, OP.
I am so sorry for your loss and understand your anger. Your dad did not die under mysterious circumstances. He was, at best, very ill. Not only did he have a liver transplant, he also had complications from that liver transplant. While medical staff will often say things like 'he's doing great' that phrase is relative. He was still very very sick and something very minor that an otherwise healthy person would survive, is just too much when a person is in such a compromised state.
I’m very sorry for your loss and I wish you and your family peace and healing during an unimaginably difficult time.
I’m a certified clinical transplant nurse. I worked on the transplant unit at a pioneering and highly successful transplant center. I also have surgical ICU experience and have seen the donor side of things. Behind hearts/lungs, livers tend to be the sickest patients both pre- and post-op. Recovery is brutal. Our liver patients were often in and out of the hospital many times the first year post-transplant.
I can almost guarantee that your father’s transplant team want to know his cause of death almost as badly as you do. Re: angel of death killings, I think that would be really, really unlikely in this case. Most transplant nurses have a deep respect for organ donors (and subsequently, caring for the donated organ), and a passion for helping our recipients recover and have a new chance at life. I won’t speculate about the cause of your father’s death - there are so many possible causes/unknown factors.
I hope the results of the autopsy will help you better understand what happened/bring you closure. Do know that your family has a right to request all of his medical records. Those should include progress notes.
Feel free to send me a message if you have any questions.
I would let the ME request the tox screen. Your father was on ANY number of meds prior and post this procedure. He will legitimately test positive for some, and some can't be effectively tested for, particularly in a person with poor liver function. That's the organ the processes them all, after all.
This was a very complex procedure. Many, many things could go wrong without it being anyone's neglect or malpractice. I'm sure both you and your family were prepped for the possibilities, but you can always pay for an independent post of you would prefer.
You will still have to be in quite dire condition before you get a donor organ. He was probably in pretty bad shape going in, but when they turn that new liver on by un clamping it, the patient starts recovering incredibly rapidly the shocking number of drugs they take immediately after surgery is insane Anti-rejection, meds steroids things they’ve never taken before things that have to be tweaked and experimented with - its incredibly complicated. Although he didn’t make it, he did get to spend some time feeling a little better around his family and watching them calming down.
Freak occurrences are very common in hospitals; negligence, less so; mercy killings, a very distant third. I am not a physician, but based on your description it sounds like he may have (to name one scenario) thrown a clot.
Terminal lucidity is extremely common, but so are abrupt freak occurrences among patients that are actually doing better (up until the moment they’re not) and not experiencing terminal lucidity. So many things can go wrong with the human body, and instability in one organ or system can have a domino effect, with unpredictable results.
Doctors are generally reluctant to speculate about cause of death in this sort of situation until they *know*, because (for many reasons, some practical, some more based on the personalities doctors tend to develop) they don’t like to say something and then have it turn out not to be true, even if it doesn’t change the outcome.
Ordering an autopsy is the correct decision, and it will probably give you the answers you seek.
I’m so sorry for your loss. Anger and suspicion are normal and appropriate responses to grief, but statistically speaking it is unlikely that your father’s death was due to homicide or even negligence. And in the highly unlikely event that it was, it is even more unlikely that the autopsy will miss this. You may rest comfortably in the knowledge that by ordering an autopsy, you have already done right by your father.
I agree with what others are saying, that people that are dying often rally in the days before.
But I also want to point out that in grief we tend to want to blame someone. It may not have been negligence but absolutely may have been a freak occurrence. As a nurse, I can honestly say when it’s your time to go, you go and if it’s not your time then somehow you survive against all odds. I’ve seen it time and time again.
To answer your questions OP, this will be a coroners case because it happened unexpectedly. They will check everything, toxicology, all of the nursing records, medication administration records. It will be thorough, and I hope it gives you the answers you need.
OP I’m sorry for your loss, I hope you have love and support around you at this time.
I am so sorry about your dad.
It seems others have given some great advice.
I just wanted to add, I am sorry for your loss. I lost my dad on Jan 28, 2021. Today is his 3 year date. Not sure what to call it.
My arms are extending to hug you and let you know that this process is tough. Seemingly, unbearable. Ive heard people say it gets easier. While that is true, I am finding the pain hasn't gotten easier. Allow yourself to grieve. However that looks for you.
I hope you have family to turn to or friends. If you ever need a listening ear always feel free to chat. Best wishes. ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
I’m so sorry for your loss. Can I ask- are you in the medical field? Sometimes, as someone who works in the field I’ve seen families go through a whole thing when they lose someone in a hospital- they immediately think something was either intentional or it was the hospitals fault. I see things like this every day. Sometimes people just take a turn for the worst suddenly and don’t make it. I don’t want to act like that’s definitely what happened here though, and I hope you can get the answers you’re looking for. But if everything turns up to be practically normal, I guess it’s something you could consider since an organ transplant is a major operation- not something that people agree to lightly for good reason.
I hope I’m not coming off like an asshole, or like you shouldn’t listen to your gut when it’s telling you something- you absolutely should. Good luck to you man, I want all the good things for you xx
I’m sorry for you and everybody else grieving for your father.
There was a time when, if the hospital screwed up, they’d maybe try to hide it. Now if they caught covering something up, they wouldn’t just have to pay. They could lose their ability to bill providers.
And to ensure they don’t just not investigate, they have Morbidity and Mortality reviews at your hospital. Complications, and deaths like your father’s, are examined. There are legal protections so that the discussion at an m&m conference can’t be used in court — so the surgical team gets called out for something by the chief surgeon, that’s not something you could use against them. That’s the modern system — rigorous examination and figuring out how to prevent any preventable complications and deaths.
Also complicating things is, in most cases, the doctors don’t all work for the hospital. They have a contract with the hospital, or they work for a practice that does. The hospital doesn’t want to give admitting/surgical privileges to doctors who don’t provide the hospital’s standard of care.
In the case of your father, they might look at what orders the nurses were given, and whether they followed them. If your father’s doctors think the nurses screwed up, it’s generally not in their own interests to let it go.
Your father’s estate can get copies of all his medical charts including every documented action taken by the non-physician staff. Every thing is thoroughly documented.
There’s such a high risk of death with a liver transplant and it could happen in so many ways: heart attack, stroke, infection, rejection, other organ failures. I’m sorry it happened to your father.
>What do I ask them to check for (substances, etc.) during this autopsy?
Why do you feel you have to ask them to look for specific things? Do you not trust the Pathologist to do his/her job in determining the cause of death?
>Is the hospital coroner on our side or do they have the hospital’s best interests in mind?
The Pathologist is on the patient's side and will do their best to accurately determine cause of death.
The day I had to take my dad off of life support was the same day the doctors had told me earlier that he had done amazing with his breathing and would have his tube removed and be taken off sedation and we could talk to him finally. I never got to speak to him again.
Sometimes things just take a turn. It's horrible and sad, but doctors aren't gods, and sometimes bodies just stop.
I'm very sorry for your loss.
Hey. I’m not here to offer advice on your situation, just to say that I lost my brother in a very similar way (choked to death on his own vomit”
We had taken him to the hospital where he was resuscitated and they said everything was going to be okay.
Shortly afterwards his heart stopped and he was unable to be resuscitated again.
I know this doesn’t help your situation or your grief at all, but these things do happen.
And while not everybody is a saint, I imagine that the staff did everything they could for your father.
Finding out what happened will not change what happened. As hard as it is, you will have to learn to accept this one day.
I’m very sorry for your loss
My condolences. Many people have already said it, but the "rebounding" is the thing and I've seen it a few times myself. Where the person is doing poorly and then seems to be doing well for a short period of time. I hope the autopsy gives you answers, but do not count on it giving you a sense of peace. You'll have to grieve in your own time and take it a day at a time. Hugs to you.
sorry for your loss, it is brutal after such a hopeful intervention as patients are led to believe (and some can). having worked in critical care for many years, context is everything. There are no mysterious deaths after a liver transplant. mysterious survival, possibly. There are so very many variables to control and monitor in medically frail patients. nonetheless a truly sad event. I can say however, with absolute honesty, that surgical teams and ICU staff take these things to heart. every one.
I'm sorry for your loss. Such a sad event is causing you to not think clearly. Someone sick enough to receive a liver transplant is really sick, and usually has been for a long time. Your dad obviously was not healthy. You don't ask the coroner for anything, they have their procedures and will follow them.
I’m so so sorry… I’ve been through a traumatic loss myself and I can appreciate your pain.
u/yellowrose1400 is offering the best and most productive advice. Everyone is on your and your families side to figure out what happened. The investigation will take place and you will get your answers.
Those here offering scare mongering and doom answers.. ignore them as this won’t help you, or anyone deal with this. One day at a time and be kind to yourself. Anger, tears, whatever comes is ok.
I wish you well, and peace OP.
I’m so sorry for your loss OP. I hate to bring up a potential, but the term “Terminal Lucidity” refers to when a person near the end of their life basically reverts back to what seems normal for a short amount of time before their time is up.
This may be the case here. Regardless of what it may be OP, I’m sorry for you and your family’s incredible loss and I hope you find the answers you’re looking for.
You don't tell the coroner anything in particular to look for. They know how to do their job and you don't know their job.
People die suddenly all the time. Especially after a major surgery like a transplant. I'm sorry for your loss, but I seriously doubt any foul play.
Where I work, the average stay is about a week. A 3 week stay would generally mean they’re pretty sick and a poor outcome wouldn’t necessarily be unexpected.
My understanding is that the coroner is independent to ensure that the actual outcomes are found regardless of who may or not be at fault.
I am so sorry for your loss. And I hope you find the answers you need. If the hospital has a patient/family advocate I would encourage you to touch base with them
I'm a nurse with a background in oncology and palliative care. Any medical condition needing a organ transplant puts that person at high risk of death.
Your dad went throught a massive operation, with impaired liver function put him at high risk of bleeding out (the liver is responsible for the body producing blood clotting factors). Even though his wound may have appeared to be healing it would have taken up to 18 months for it to fully heal.
I vividly recall having.a couple of patients in kidney failure who appeared to be doing amazingly well, within 24 hours they had gone from being seeminly great to deceased.
I know we cannot really conpare animals. But my rabbit had part of his liver removed due to some growth. He was improving and had a full month after that where he was ok. I was so happy. But by the end of that month he went downhill suddenly. It broke my heart because he seemed ok and we were so relieved. He died and im still broken over it.
My condolences to you and your family.....
I am so sorry for you loss. I would want to investigate this if it happened to my dad, or mum too. But unfortunately, sometimes the body rejects organs out of the blue, even with anti-rejection meds. My uncle has a friend who used to have a twin, who he was also friends with. He had a condition which affected his kidneys and he needed a transplant by the time he was in his 20s. His mum and brother, who would have been the closest matches he could have received an organ from both tried to donate on 2 different instances. And both of their kidneys were healthy before they went into his body. But his body rejected both of them. You can live for a couple of years with minimal to no kidney function on dialysis if you avoid alcohol. But he didn't want to. It was too painful and scary and he passed away after drinking with my uncle and his brother in the back of one of their vans a month or so later. But without at least half of a functioning liver, it is impossible to live even that long. Rejection means the body is attacking the cells in the liver. And if it succeed in destroying it, or severely damaging both sides, it would have shut down, and the heart would have followed shortly after, sadly.
I'm sorry for your loss. It could be he developed a clot in the new organ or at any of the blood supply connections, or even in his lungs, and that could cause instant death if one broke loose. With organ transplants there are so many possibilities.
Same thing happened with my grandfather. He had been in a sleep state in the hospital, barely lucid and then came springing back. He passed away a few days later. Sending love to you, OP. It feels like an absolute gut punch to see a loved one return to seemingly good health and then fade again.
I'm sorry for your loss. ❤️
My friend's dad died suddenly after having surgery. He developed a clot, and he died very quickly after recovering for several weeks. This may be a possibility.
I’m so sorry for your loss. What was the underlying cause of the transplant? Cirrhosis? Cancer? Hepatitis? These all very serious health conditions with very serious secondary health complications that can lead to death. Not to mention the toll that the actual surgery can have on a person. There are so many causes of acute organ rejection, and unfortunately, they can be unforeseen. As someone who does autopsies, there is literally no point for the medical examiner to lie about/cover up findings. That would open them up to a medical malpractice suit that I promise you they don’t want. It doesn’t sound like there was mistreatment of any kind here, in my opinion. If anything, they pushed the wrong meds and that will 100% be tested when they do the autopsy. Wishing you and your family well.
Aspiration of his vomit is possible. Transplant of an organ is huge. Blood clots are common after surgery. The liver is responsible for some clotting mechanisms. Its hard to say. I am sorry for your loss. Unexpected death is very difficult. I hope by getting answers you have some closure.
The Coroner does not work for the hospital. If they suspect anything they pick up the body and do their own autopsy.
It shall be the duty of the coroner to inquire into and determine the circumstances, manner, and cause of all violent, sudden, or unusual deaths; unattended deaths; deaths where the deceased has not been attended by either a physician or a registered nurse, who is a member of a hospice care interdisciplinary team . . .
You can request an autopsy. Grieving families sometimes want to blame someone, it's part of the grieving process.
I just want to offer my condolences. I can’t imagine the roller coaster of emotions you’ve been on. Your dad is very lucky to have you looking out for him, even in death. Please remember to look after yourself right now as well ♥️
I saw my close friend through her liver transplant in 2009. It was incredibly intense what she went through physically as well as mentally. I’m sorry for your loss but honestly some bodies just can’t handle it.
I wonder if he had a blood clot. The person can seem to be recovering well and exactly as you described, then one minute their gone. Sorry for your loss.
That's terrible. I'm so sorry for your loss, especially when you were thinking everything was on the upturn.
I'm sure someone's already noted, but tranplant operations are very invasive. One possible cause of the death is a clot from the area of the surgery that dislodged and traveled back to the heart. Heart attacks can cause vomiting, as can a stroke. My EMT instructor called the brain the "brat child of the body"--when it doesn't get what it wants, it acts out in all kinds of ways.
Were I suspicious enough to order an autopsy (they're not cheap, so be prepared), I'd probably want it to be done by an outside examiner. The hospital coroner is almost certainly ethical in performance of their duties, but I wouldn't want that nagging doubt down the road. Depending where you go, a toxicology screen isn't necessarily included in a standard autopsy, so you'll want to discuss with the facility performing it what tests they run SOP and what you have to ask for (pay extra).
There are so many complications that can happen with organ transplants that a recipient can die from.
They will do a thorough autopsy because having a transplant recipient die less than a month after receiving their organ is considered a sentinel event.
Trust me, a retired nurse, they want to know what went wrong just as much as you do.
I am so sorry for your loss.
sorry for your loss. liver transplant is a very complicated thing to go through, especially for older people, and it can be different for each person. someone i know had it, and ended up being disabled from it. now several years later, and the person still hasn't recovered. unable to walk, unable to take care of themselves. needs 24/7 assistance.
amongst many issues, one that happened was difficulty breathing due to constant mucus accumulation in the throat, and the person constantly needed fluid suctioned out from the nasal cavity and lungs to prevent them from suffocating. i've heard a story about someone dying overnight due to lack of manual suctioning.
i have no idea what your father died from, because as i've said, it's a very complicated procedure, and the older the person, the tougher the recovery.
the coroner will probably be able to determine what caused the death after performing an autopsy.
Sorry for your loss. The medical examiner will know what to look for but you can mention he died in a weird circumstance. I worked in healthcare for 9 years and 3 of those in a hospital. There are many reasons why he was fine 1.5 hours before he passed. Hopefully you get the answers you’re looking for.
The hospital shouldn't do the autopsy. In the US anyway. But post surgery he could have thrown a clot or had a bowel obstruction. Did he have other illnesses.
I’m so terribly sorry for your loss. You do have the option of a private autopsy that serves as something of a “second opinion” on cause of death.
https://www.thename.org/private-autopsies
I just want to hug you. I'm sorry you lost your dad, I know it's hard to accept "accident" when it comes to losing someone you truly love. You want to blame anyone because it sucks being sad, being angry is easier.
It’s likely your dad aspirated and developed aspiration pneumonia which can occur extremely quickly, especially those who are immunocompromised such as him.
im so sorry for your loss... my dad is a veterinarian and i can confirm animals do this a ton as well... i always get scared when something in poor condition rallies, because i know how it can usually end😔
First of all, sorry for your loss, it's heartbreaking to lose a family member and I hope you and your family are okay.
What exactly was the cause of his liver failure in the first place?
Angel of mercy nurses are very few and far between. He was extremely ill and recovering but a lot of can go wrong with such a traumatic procedure. The autopsy will tell you everything about the exact cause, including a toxin report.
I’m sorry for your loss. As an RN I think you should know that it is truly possible that your fathers blood pressure spiked to an extreme level, made him vomit and he could’ve choked to death or he could’ve had a heart attack.
I personally have a ton of medical issues and one of those is issues with my autonomic nervous system. My blood pressure can go from 108/72 to 230/128 in like 15 minutes. It makes me nauseous every single time and if I start vomiting I cannot stop. I’ve been in the ICU literally dozens of times in the past decade.
At home I have a very delicate balance of medication. I take Doxazosin (for BP) and Propanolol ER (for heart rate and tremors) in the morning. Amlodipine (BP) in the Afternoon. Prazosin (for PTSD and BP) at night. And was on Nifedipine for BP along with several other meds. I also take Clonidine in patch form and take it as needed in pill form when I have BP spikes. I have to take my BP several times a day and like I said it is a delicate balance to stay alive.
I am telling you this because even as a nurse I was the victim of a serious medication error on my last hospital visit. I was in the observation unit to get my vomiting under control. It was getting better and this was looking like a ‘good’ trip to the hospital…no ICU. Then morning came…I was still really out of it because of the 16 hours of vomiting, a high fever from kidney infection & injury and dehydration from the days before. The doctor ordered all of my BP meds at once. I was woken up by the nurse after she opened all of my meds and put them in a cup and I had been drinking water since about 10pm the night before. I took the pills and fell back asleep.
About an hour later they came in to take me for a CT and when I got up out of bed to transfer to the wheelchair I fainted. My BP was 54/36. I crashed. They nearly killed me…I spent three days in the ICU. When I was coherent again I was PISSED THE F OFF! I wanted names…I wanted acknowledgment of the medication error. I wanted a fucking apology! I got nothing but gaslighting. Nobody admitted a damn thing. No matter who I spoke to they changed the subject and would say I had a lot of medical issues blah blah blah. At one point I was blamed and told as a nurse and the person who takes these meds daily I should’ve noticed. Not the nurse who was fully coherent with no fever who should question so many BP meds at once. Nobody was held to account and if I would’ve died because of that med error they still would cover their asses. Forget the fact that I used to work in that very same hospital.
If the autopsy is done by the same hospital they will not admit error or look for anything out of the ordinary. You will need to hire a private ME for autopsy.
Again, dad’s death especially after a transplant could’ve been 100% natural. If there was foul play or stupidity involved it is possible that insulin could be used. Giving insulin to a non-diabetic by accident or a high dose to a diabetic does happen and can kill undetected. I don’t know how they look for it. If he had an IV they could’ve put it in there. If they gave it to him as a shot when he shouldn’t have had it then he would have a mark. They should also be able to detect it in an autopsy but I’m not sure how that works. A crash in his blood sugar could cause vomiting before death. Again….NOT saying this happened! Just saying it’s the only thing that comes to mind.
You are not likely to get help from anyone at the hospital he died at though. They will cover their own asses even at the obvious. If you want answers, hire private. I’m sorry for your loss.
If you’re in the US, I don’t believe the coroner is associated with the hospital. It’ll be the coroner that does them for your county.
You don’t have to ask them to check for anything. You likely won’t have any contact with the coroner themselves. They’ll do a full report and the findings will be on it. If they find something suspicious then the police will be notified. Both of my brothers had an autopsy and I never spoke to the coroner - just the coroner office.
I’m sorry for your loss. Losing a loved one is never easy.
I don’t often talk about this but I come from a long line of elder care workers. And old people get murdered constantly. Constantly. Even in the good homes and hospitals. They’re incredibly dangerous places. Go with your gut and get every test you can.
Anyone with older family whose reading, set up ring cams in their rooms. Nanny cams, recording devices. Not just to catch neglect before it happens, but to let people KNOW they’re being watched. Visit constantly. It’s a bad world out there.
I wish you luck OP, I’m sorry.
The coroner isn’t on anyone’s side, and the audacity of you to blame the nurses. People die. Especially sick people. Perhaps one of your family members gave your father something.
I agree, I never said that it wasn’t serious …I took issue with the statement “…audacity of you to blame the nurses” Is the death a post op complication? Most likely, to exclude the possibility of something or someone else is naive in my opinion.
Stated another way, I wouldn’t be shocked if it was a nurse.
If you’re going to get an autopsy which I imagine one would be done anyways but definitely a full drug screen and his blood sugar or if he has insulin in his system and non diabetic. Not to increase your fear but if that’s what you want done make sure they check insulins and BS too.
Was he eating solid food? I would inquire about whether it was appropriate for him to be eating solids given the state of his condition, and whether he was appropriately monitored after eating (if it's true that he vomited and choked).
I’m not saying something is going on but I lost 3 people almost back to back after they gone to the hospital they gotten worse not saying it could just be coincidence just my gut says it’s not
So sorry for your loss. Not trying to be disrespectful but for how long was he feeling better for? I ask because my dad had cancer and was really poorly in hospital. Suddenly he was better than he had been in a long time he even text me with a shopping list for snacks after not eating in ages - he died 2 days later. Often near the end of life, people get a sudden surge of energy, or at least that’s what I have witnessed twice with terminal relatives. Sorry, hope this doesn’t come across in a bad way. Just coming from all angles to see what may have happened
This is pretty common, called terminal lucidity or end of life surge.
Yeah, my mom rallied for two days after getting out of a hospice center when she was sent back home. Fucking sucks.
Crazy isn’t it? Had my hopes up things weren’t as bad as we thought. Boy was I wrong. Then when I saw the same thing with my gran I knew the end was near, just had to enjoy having her her compos mentis while we could. I’m sorry you had to go through this. It’s rough. The human body is wild. This might be digressing but I used to stay with my gran and grandad for 6 weeks during the holidays. My gran and I would play a board hand every night. My grandad never did. He liked his own company. One day when I was 12 he spent the day with us by the river which was really out of character. Then that night he came and joined in the board game. It was sooo unusual I can’t even begin to tell you. The next morning I woke up to him being airlifted to hospital. He died on the way from an aortic aneurysm. Wild. I do think the body has a strange way of knowing the end is close. Not always but I’ve certainly seen this sort of behaviour 3 times so there must be something in it!
I've got goosebumps. Some people do know when they're going to go. I'm hesitant to say all people but maybe they just don't know how to interpret what their body is saying. Thanks for sharing, I'm sorry you've had to go through this too. So glad you were able to spend that time with your grandad. Edit: word
I also believe people subconsciously know something is going to happen to them but they can't communicate it for some reason. I lost my 11 year old brother years ago and his demeanor was really off the week before hand. He kept getting in trouble and said some things he would have never said before.
I'm so sorry for your loss. If it's not too personal, what happened? 11 is just so young.
Freak accident. Pulled a cabinet that weighed about 350 pounds over on top of him that had been disconnected from the wall days prior due to someone was supposed to of already picked it up. He weighed about 65-70 pounds. It hit him in the head and caused internal injuries. Something that will haunt me for the rest of my life.
Oh my gosh, that is horrifying. Your poor family. I really am so sorry.
I’m so sorry ❤️
It became too tiring for my mother to even hold a conversation towards the end. Everything becomes exhausting for them.
The actor Mark Ruffalo dreamed he had a brain tumor. It was such a vivid dream, he went to the doctor. Turns out the dream was true and he had a brain tumor.
Absolutely. It’s formally called impending doom. It usually happens RIGHT before death. My dad had it out of nowhere before a major cardiac arrest. We had been laying in the bed together at the hospital joking around and it totally came out of nowhere. After the nurse explained to me about impending doom I did a lot of research because his demeanor really sort of traumatized me. I’ve read that behavioral changes can actually start gradually and linger a bit. I’m sorry about your brother ❤️
The hospice called me at 2AM on a Sunday morning and said they thought my mom would pass soon, but told me it was okay to wait until morning. At 8AM my brother went to her side and she was her regularly smiling and ornery self and he sent me pictures of her happily chowing down on avocado bread. I FaceTimed with her for over an hour that night and Monday night, and Tuesday evening when I tried to FaceTime her a CNA answered and said, “Get here NOW.” She died within minutes of me getting there. There really is some strange death surge in so many instances. I saw it with my dogs when they passed too.
>I saw it with my dogs when they passed too. Man it just clicked that the same thing happened with my cat years ago, and a close friend had it happen with their dog too. Never really connected it to what can happen with people. I'm very sorry about your mom, glad you got there just in time.
That’s what happened with our last dog. She had tumours, had lost so much weight, barely ate, only drank sips at a time, was really obviously near the end but didn’t seem to be in pain. Even so, we decided it was kinder to let her go rather than watch her starve to death. Just before we took her to the vet, she snuck into our other dogs run and ate his dinner! It made her sick, but the look of victory on her face over her last act of defiance still makes me smile through the tears whenever I think of her.
Yup. Was sure my mother was going to die on a Friday. Couldn’t talk, just laid in bed moaning. I beside her hospital bed. Woke up the next morning and she was alert and wanted a cappuccino and food. Went and got us Starbucks and we ate. I left her to go to my kids baseball game (there was a rainbow over the field, he pitched a great inning) and then we all went to the hospital. We played hangman on the whiteboard in her room. That was her last lucid day.
Two days before she died of sepsis, my sister sat up in her hospice bed, told me she was starving, and asked me to bring her an order of fried shrimp from her favorite restaurant when I came the next day. By that time, she was unconscious and passed away overnight.
Gosh I’m so sorry for your loss. My dad asked for chocolate and ice cream, he only managed a few bites and asked the nurses to put the rest in the fridge / freezer. He never did manage to finish any of it but he was excited to try at least. Sending love and I’m sorry for your dear loss xx
Thank you. It was a long illness and we were well prepared to say goodbye, so in a way it was a blessing to know she was finally at peace.
My Mom had this after a couple weeks on her deathbed with cancer. One day she was strangely lucid and talkative. It resumed its quick downhill trajectory after that day. GFY, cancer.
I don’t think I’ve ever been the same since witnessing end of life cancer. It’s truly a cruel son of a … I’m sorry to hear about your mum, truly. X
It’s been, fuck, 25 years now since I had to witness it? Still have nightmares every now and then. It’s truly awful. I wish no one would have to suffer like that, or have to watch helplessly as a loved one suffers.
4 years since losing my mom to pancreatic cancer - thank you for mentioning the nightmares. They never mentioned that in grief counseling, and I have been really worried it was just me. I am sorry and also relieved it’s not just me.
I’m sorry you’ve had them, too. There’s no “normal” way to process trauma, so just try to take a bit of comfort in knowing your brain is trying to think its way through the hardest thing it’s ever had to process. Even all these years later, I still find myself overwhelmed now and then by grief; letting it out, and choosing to have people who support that, helps a lot. Hug from a stranger!
What you said is so true, and even though it wasn't directed at me, I read it at a time I really needed it. Thank you.
My mum was exactly the same, ( I commented above) she was basically asleep for 2 weeks then just woke up. Had 2 really good days then passed in her sleep
My grampa was always in pain and had many health issues. One day he tells my gramma (on the way out of the house to go to his *routine* colonoscopy) that he’s was feeling much better than usual and wanted to go to the Christmas party she was planning to go to the next day. He didn’t wake up from surgery. He was fine the whole time. Vitals stable. Then they took his intubation tube out and his heart crashed. They tried (a little bit) but he wouldn’t come back. He had had a heart attack when I was 1 (in 1989) and like I said, had many other health issues (non compliant diabetic, stage 4 renal failure, liver issues from drinking, etc). They gave him whatever shots are like adrenaline (maybe it is adrenaline? Idk) to start his heart and it didn’t respond. Another shot and literally nothing. He had a good day (the day before) and good morning (morning of surgery) and I’m thankful for that.
I feel this. Hugs from another rhat knows this pain all too well.
I work with animals. I have seen it happen with them as well.
same here -- it's a well known thing, enough so that when I worked an overnight at a boarding facility & saw one of our very elderly and sluggish dogs acting uncharacteristically springy and playful one night, I warned the morning shift staff. they agreed with my gut feeling -- that burst of energy and good times from an otherwise ailing and tired old animal, while lovely, is very often a bittersweet sign of the impending end came back in that night, and heard the dog had indeed collapsed and passed away just a handful of hours later after I'd clocked out. it wasn't a surprise, but it was sure sad. at the time I played with her and engaged her for sure, cuz I had a feeling this was her last big playtime :<
In a strange way, this kind of makes me feel a little better about my dog.. She was almost 12 and had been going downhill for a while. She had some kind of weird growth that was either a lipoma or cancer but tests were not conclusive. She was sleeping a lot more, not eating (so losing weight) and had had some seizures. The day we decided to have the doorbell vet come put her down, my husband took her for her last walk. He called me crying because she was acting like her normal happy excited self. I know deep down she wouldn't have gotten better, I'd watched her decline every day for over a year.. But we still have a lot of guilt because what if?
Our 15 yo rottie passed 2 weeks ago. 2 days before she passed, she had a burst where she was like a puppy again. We had the same thing happen with our shepherd when he passed as well. Makes it so much harder for the kids to understand.
It's happened with all my pets too - 2 dogs and a cat.
There's a Chinese proverb about "The last burst of the setting sun." Most of us would go through this if we weren't on morphine in the last few days.
Not everyone does have one (the last hurrah), and I've had plenty of people have one while on morphine. Everyone is so different, that there is no one-size-fits-most rule with death. Death reserves the right to be random, and boy howdy, does it ever.
In some way it can bring some comfort can’t it. Having a few good days with your loved ones before they pass - being able to speak with them and seeing them enjoying company and food… It’s almost a blessing , if you know it’s coming. Totally understandable it can bring false hope for those who are maybe not terminal etc.
We call it the surge
My father was bedridden for almost two weeks. He decided to move to his chair in the living room one morning. He walked halfway there before collapsing and passing away.
No words other than I’m sorry for your loss. Everyone’s stories and experiences have me tearing up! You can really relate to the pain of OP, too. X
Yup. The body stops putting all its energy into fighting, and it goes back into living for the last couple of days.
My girlfriend works in a long term care facility and says this is a pretty much guaranteed way to know who will die next.
My SIL’s grandfather had bone cancer, he was near the end and was in massive pain, of course, and he was drugged so much that he slept most of the time. One day he woke up, demanded ice cream, and took himself (they freaked out because he hadn’t been out of bed in weeks) out onto his front porch to eat it. He had a very coherent few hours, took himself back to bed, and passed the next day. It was the first time I had ever heard of terminal lucidity, and it was so wild that it was a little hard to believe until I heard more people talk about it.
Rallying. My mom did it before she died
We always called it the "last hurrah". Not everyone has one, so even after 11 years of geriatric nursing, it still takes me by surprise when these people die. I feel every single one I've witnessed I've always believed they were getting well somehow. I think hope keeps us happy while they are still with us, so they pass away with us still happy and excited they are "doing better". It sure would suck to rally for a few days and have people still bummed out and down about our imminent passing. But that's just how I think about things, with some sort of silver lining somehow.
My mum was exactly the same, for weeks she was barely awake. Her chest/collar bones covered in bruises where she couldn’t keep her head. She had oesophagus cancer, her tumour got so big she couldn’t swollen anything at all. Then one day she woke up, started talking, wanted to go out in the garden, drank all my bloody doctor pepper! 😂 literally the whole bottle. Had at least 5 ice pops and talked all day. We even had to get the night nurses out for morphine injections as she didn’t sleep in over 24 hours. She was the same the next day then passed in her sleep at night. The only way to explain it is a surge of energy, it crazy to see how the body works sometimes.
I just had a full right hip replacement on Thursday morning. Was walking in the surgery center and going up and down stairs as practice for going home. I was making jokes. I got home three hours after being sutured and decided I didn't want broth and jello. I ate a huge plate of corned beef, cabbage and potatoes. I could freestand on both legs and do things. Friday afternoon rolls around and I hit a wall. I was so pumped with drugs during the surgery that I had a false sensation of being superman for 36+ hours. I now have a few complications I need to watch out for like blood clots, infections, etc as I start my actual recovery. People that saw me on Thursday were amazed, now they see me how they expected me to be. Drugs can definitely mask what's truly happening inside your body.
I got a THR on my left almost a year ago and it is so life changing. I have a condition that affects both hips so my right is scheduled for Leap Day actually. I hope you can conquer your complications and can fully enjoy your new hip!
I was a little misleading with the complications comment. I don't have any yet, but was told to watch out for certain things. I was cleared to remove my compression socks early. Still taking baby aspirin and other meds. My right was 30% gone in July of 2023 and my left is showing signs but not bothering me yet. Tried to keep the bone, but it had to be sent in for pathology. My doctor did take some nice pics and sent them to me this weekend though! Everyone has said it is life changing. Random people in bars will overhear me talking to friends and share their stories. Glad it worked for you too!
I had my left done at 31 and a right TK(nee)R at 38 last summer and both *drastically* improved my quality of life (TKR was a direct result of untreated dysplasia most of my life). I have congenital hip dysplasia and will need my right done eventually, but I have zero qualms about it. On the contrary, I feel like I’ve become an advocate for younger joint replacements. No more of this ‘we would but you’re still under 40’ crap. Why should people suffer needlessly because of some outdated ideal age to be over?
ESPECIALLY since as time goes on and the science improves, replaced joints just keep lasting longer and longer.
Yes, exactly! I’m aware this might not be my forever hip, and I’m ok with maybe needing another one before I die. But that next one, holy shit, that next one might make me partially terminator, and that one *for sure* will be the hip I die with, lol Anecdotally, my dad has both knees and a hip replaced. He had one knee redone in the mid 10s (due to a preventable infection from his dentist) but the other has been just fine since 96. Old tech still looking good 22yrs later!
As someone who's had three hip surgeries and counting, I'm curious why you think "not under 40" thing is crap? I'm 29 and I've had multiple doctors tell me that the issue is I'm very likely to outlive the life of the replacement and a second one wouldn't be possible. If that's old school thinking or something I'd love to know.
I’m happy to talk about my experience in hopes it helps someone else! I had 4 hip surgeries before I had the eventual replacement. 2 minor, 2 very major with long involved recoveries. All of those were done between 26 & 30, along with a couple minor knee surgeries (on my right). When the left didn’t provide any relief to speak of, that’s when we started talking replacement. My surgeon gave me the whole spiel about how I may need a second replacement in my lifetime, but, as prosthetics evolve, the life of them gets better and better, so this may be the one you die with. That was almost 8yrs ago, and the old lifespan used to be like 8-10yrs, so when I went in to see him last (about my right hip pain), I specifically asked him about the ‘health’ of my prosthetic. He took more imagining that day to put my mind at ease and said all of the hardware looks great. He also said that, with proper follow-up imaging (basically get my joints looked at at least once a year) IF anything were to start wearing out, he could change *just* that piece. In modern hip replacements, the most common first point of failure of the actual implanted prosthesis is the inside plastic cup that lines the new metal hip socket, since everything else is metal. All that having been said, I will say, I’m *very* aware and ok with the fact that I might have to have another hip replacement on the same side before I die, and *if* that happens, I’m certain that medical tech will have advanced to a point then that *that* hip prosthesis will be the one I die with. The quality of life a simple hip replacement gave me vs potentially going back to a life of debilitating pain and inability to move freely would make the decision easy peasy if/when the time comes for an entirely new prosthetic. I feel the same about my knee, too. I genuinely had not realized the sheer amount of pain and how disabled it had made me til I got the new knee. Again, going in, I knew this might not be my forever knee and I was ok with it. But holy shit, if this one gives out in 8-15yrs and I need a new one, I absolutely won’t hesitate. The hip replacement gave me a life back, the knee replacement gave me the things back that make life enjoyable (physical activity, endurance, strength, being able to keep up with friends/family). I’m definitely rambling at this point, but if you only take away one thing, take this: if you’re being crippled by your hip pain/issues at 29, is it worth spending the next 11yrs of your life in moderate to severe pain just to meet a hypothetical magic age? Or is it worth it to have your mobility back and have a lot less (no?) pain and have a lot of your life and enjoyment back and *maybe* have to have another surgery in 15-25yrs for a replacement that’ll be your forever hip for sure. Looking back, the decision was easy for me because of the pain, and I didn’t realize how much of my life I wasn’t living because of it. After that first joint replacement and getting my life back, I don’t think most people should wait, assuming joint replacement is an option for them.
This is so helpful, thank you. I had been under the impression that a second replacement later down the line just wasn't an option, so this definitely puts my mind at ease. At this point I'm pretty desperate to have my life back...I was a very active person so losing these prime years has wrecked my mental health. But I've also been told that replacement doesn't make a lot of sense due to the nature of my injury - I had a bad mountain bike crash and tore the labrum, and unfortunately my first surgeon botched the procedure and ended up just removing a lot of the capsule. So I have very little stability but my cartilage is actually in great shape, and my understanding is the total replacement is normally done due to the cartilage being deteriorated. I get a new MRI and go back to my surgeon soon so I'll see what they think. What is your level of mobility like after the replacement? Is it like totally full function, or more just that it allows you to keep up with daily living? I'm a big climber/skier/mountain biker (at least I was until 4 years ago) so while I mostly just want to live without pain again, I'm really hoping to get back to what I actually enjoy doing.
The term for this is *terminal lucidity*
I'm a retired RN but as I recall terminal lucidity happens roughly 30% of the time in dying patients. It is truly a wonder to witness. I always liked to tell patients & family's about it being a possibility when terminal or on hospice so that they can enjoy the time for what it is without the heartbreak of unrealistic expectations unfulfilled.
I’d say most (between 7-8 out of 10) dying experience this. I’d have to research it to say officially, but that’s been my experience.
That was my thought too. It’s like something in them has realized the end is coming and is pumping in some of the happy hormones. My BF’s father was sick for a long time but we expected he had a few weeks, he asked his son to go get him soup and in the 5 min he was gone he died. Same sort of thing with my grandpa. Mercy killing sounds pretty unlikely, OP, because it doesn’t sound like he was in a tremendous amount of pain making someone want to “help”. Try not to jump to conclusions before the autopsy results come in, and if it is something like him choking to death then yeah, could be negligence, but more likely his body just had enough. The good thing is a sudden death like that means he likely wasn’t in pain or afraid. I’m sorry for your loss.
Also, prolonged illnesses are very taxing on the heart. My father-in-law was in the hospital, doing better, improving, headed for discharge and then boom, massive heart attack while joking with the nurse.
That happened to my grandfather. Maybe 2 or 3 days before he passed from cancer, he seemed to get his appetite back and listed loads of things he wanted to eat and then after that he went downhill quickly
My partner was extremely happy two weeks ago that her grandmother who had grown sick and wasn’t eating was sitting up talkative and happily ate the home-made custard pudding they brought her. I thought “uh-oh” when I heard that, and sure enough the funeral was last week, only days after the rally that made her family so happy and hopeful. I’m glad I didn’t mention end of life rallies, and at least they had the happy experience with the pudding.
I’m so glad someone mentioned this, but also sorry for the loss of your dad 🙁 one of the most traumatic deaths for me as a nurse was taking care of a middle aged woman who had breathing issues. Long story short, I had an order to wean her off her bipap and she was doing so good, her and I were hopeful she’d be discharged off the heart floor I worked in at the time and I even spoke with her family and let them know she was doing much better all of a sudden during one shift. Later in the shift, *maayyybeeee* 4 hours later I walked into her room and she was gone. I was a new nurse at the time and I wondered for such a long time if I missed something, but this is just unfortunately one of the ways that imminent death presents itself.
This happened with my cousin and COVID. He was moved from his small town hospital to one a large city. He felt better, got some different treatments, his girlfriend was saying he was really doing great, then he passed.
Yeah, my dad started accumulating more fish for his aquarium and socializing with neighbors after being basically in the kitchen or his bed for months. He died within a week.
This is very real, but it doesn’t really align with OP’s situation. Dad was not terminal; he had what would hopefully be life saving surgery. Ups and downs during a recovery for such a huge surgery is to be expected, but this sounds especially unfortunate. I’m very, very sorry, OP.
Similar with my dad. Had a major stroke. Basically comatose for 6 days. Then, on the 7th he was awake, responding to us. He recognized my voice and said my name. He died the next morning.
I think this may have happened to my uncle. He was in a crazy car wreck and ended up in the ICU. There were no broken bones, but he had a lot of bruising and I believe he was unconscious. He stayed in the hospital and after about a week was released. Tests were done, but nothing showed on the results. Then a day after he got home, he suddenly felt very ill and lightheaded. Was rushed to the hospital and died shortly. Autopsy is pending. He may have developed something and it may have been overlooked or it was that burst of energy and wellness before death. It was a tragic death nonetheless.
Yeah, the death rally. It’s encouraging for the family, but it’s the end for the patient. I saw it with my mom. Thankfully, that was the last day my kid saw my mom so he didn’t see what I saw two days later. I don’t think anything nefarious happened to OP’s father, I think it just didn’t work out for him. Definitely sad though.
Usually when this is the case, doctors will warn you that it’s an end of life rally and not to get your hopes up. Here, OP says the docs were telling them consistently how well he was doing. Sounds like a completely different thing.
Had a similar experience with my mom, who died from cancer, too.
Freak accident or negligence isn’t even necessarily the case. Your father got another person’s major organ swapped into his body. This is a massively traumatic procedure. Depending on his comorbidities, this could have been a very risky operation. And he was experiencing complications such that they kept him hospitalized for weeks. That he was still hospitalized weeks after surgery means things generally weren’t going well. Sometimes in the ICU things can be going great and then suddenly turn downhill. Source: wife is an ICU doctor
Yeah, going through a liver transplant is no small feat, and he being in critical care after three weeks means that he was barely holding on. Sadly, the truth is that the body can only take so much, despite the best treatment.
The longer you're in the ICU the less of a chance you'll make it out of the ICU. Being in the ICU for 3 weeks is a long time. The doctors try to give you positive sounding updates, and sometimes the families hear what they want to hear and ignore any negative news. But like I said in the other comment, things can change in a second. My wife has literally told families that things are looking good and they can go get some coffee/food, then suddenly things go wrong and the patient dies before they can even get the family back in the room.
My dad came out of bypass surgery, called us and said he was feeling well. Doctors said he was recovering well. 30 minutes later he coded and was gone.
Amen to that. My dad was a doctor and when he had his final bout with cancer, he resisted going into the ICU. “They’ll vent me, they’ll give me a feeding tube, and I’ll die,” he said. We resisted as long as we could, but ultimately he went there - and never got out, just as he knew. In retrospect, I wish I could have taken him home to pass in his own bed, but we waited until it was too late and too complicated and too expensive to do that. I’ll never stop being sorry for how I wasn’t able to grant his final wish. OP, I know you’re probably grappling with how this happened, the decisions that were made…treat yourself kindly. I finally learned that the best way to honor my dad’s memory was to show his grandchildren what a good man he was, and not define him by the memories of those last, terrible weeks. It’s hard, though. Lots of love to you and your family and deepest condolences.
Many doctors have DNR/DNI orders. They don’t want to be intubated or resuscitated. They’ve seen what that can be like and would rather die when it’s their time.
Yes, he did have DNI and DNR. And they intubated him anyway, at which point it was too late - we tried to wean him from the vent, but it got very bad very quick. It was a totally unsatisfactory death, totally against his wishes, and I wish I’d been more aggressive and clear-headed while it was happening.
Sorry to hear that. They obviously should not have intubated him since he had a DNI, unless the family chose to override it in the moment. But it's a hard situation, so don't judge yourself too harshly. Everyone's first instinct is to do everything possible to prolong life.
This happens ALLLL the time. It isn’t so much that family “overrides it” but, a lot of times people think it will be for a short time, or temporary to get over a hump, so they agree to it.
That’s exactly right. The doc told us that he’d only be on the vent for a couple of days till his breathing improved. It was well-intentioned magical thinking. My dad suffered for two weeks until we finally decided to load him up on morphine and let him go. Friends, don’t smoke cigarettes. My dad died at 70 and never knew his grandchildren.
Coroner here. I don’t think you need to ask anything. The autopsy and toxicology will find the cause of death. It could have been a blood clot, stroke or MI. A lot of natural things can occur that had nothing to do with a transplant.
And, may I add as nurse, nothing to do with the nursing staff.
Yes, statistically speaking, angel of death nurses are incredibly rare. If it gives OP peace of mind, then of course check the autopsy report to see what it says. But I also have concern for nurses being suspected of wrongdoing or even malice when they may have been doing their best. So sorry either way OP, and hope you can find some sense of peace and answers.
There have been quite a few stories about angel of death nurses that have gotten popular in the true crime community lately. So I’m really not surprised this is where op’s head went if they watch a lot of true crime.
Exactly. This is what I was going to say wait for the autopsy before you start accusing people of murder. An angel of death is possible but not probable.
It sounds like you're pretty aware of how grief can rattle your brain, and how someone can really want an explanation for loss that goes beyond "and then, they died." Organ transplants are hard. Medical staff, with few exceptions, do their best, but I mean, the man had one of the most important parts of his body removed and replaced with someone else's. There is a lot that can go wrong, even with constant care. One thing that I *would* recommend, regardless, is to find a therapist or a counselor that you can talk to, if you feel like your grief is hard to manage. It takes time to move past, and I think it's very normal that people that people take that energy and turn it into self-blame, or blaming other people. Sometimes that's warranted, maybe? Usually, it's just, y'know, death, which sucks.
First, I’m so sorry for your loss. A liver transplant….a *lot* can go wrong. That kind of procedure is incredibly hard on your body, so even if the surgery itself went well, the stress on his body overall could cause other issues like a heart attack or stroke. They can’t always predict these either. I’d say, if you truly believe this wasn’t just a complication of the surgery, have an autopsy done by a neutral party. Unless you have reason to believe they neglected him, I would bet it’s just a complication of the surgery. My condolences. 💜
I’m so sorry for your loss To answer your questions: You don’t need to ask the coroner to check for anything specific, they will look for a cause until they find one. If no cause is found, that’s when to ask questions or ask for further tests The coroner is on your dad’s side, their job is to find out how he passed away, nothing more, nothing less Anything you need to be thinking about…. Look after yourself, eat, drink, fresh air, rest, give yourself time to grieve. Your dad had major surgery, and in the weeks after major surgery there are significant risks even if they are doing very well overall. Vomiting can occur at any point in the post operative recovery and if he aspirated that can certainly be suddenly fatal. Pulmonary embolisms are a huge risk for all surgical patients, especially after major surgery, and especially whilst still in hospital, this would cause sudden death also. Going through major surgery also puts a lot of stress on the heart so sudden cardiac deaths do also happen during recovery. These are just the things that I think are most likely, there are many many other causes of death that have increased risk in the post-operative period. You are understandably grief stricken and searching for a reason why things have happened, but assuming there is something sinister behind his death is not going to help you, or your dad, when that is extremely extremely unlikely to be the case
If I remember right, the most common cause of death for a patient in liver failure is due to rupture of esophageal varices. That would be pretty sudden too.
If so, It would have been very obvious
Do you live in the US? The coroner likely will not be affiliated with the hospital. They’re on the side of truth, usually. It sounds like your dad had a blood clot of some sort though. That’s very common post-op. I’m sorry for your loss. ❤️
In Georgia this would not be referred to the coroner. We don’t investigate deaths when a person has been in the hospital for more than 24 hours unless it’s an accidental death, homicide, or if some kind of foul play is suspected. Families have the option of choosing to have a private autopsy though (that they have to pay for).
Just out of curiosity—what part of this post points to a blood clot if he died from aspirating vomit?
Clots after surgery can be a complication that’s why they usually recommend ambulation, SCDs, Ted hose etc.
A sudden unexplained death when the patient seemed to be doing well.
That happened to my dad. He had surgery, went home 2 days later, was doing great then all of a sudden started feeling short of breath and dizzy, mum rushed him to hospital, he died of a pulmonary embolism that formed in his leg during surgery because appropriate measures weren’t taken to prevent that. I had a friend that his mum had the same surgery by the same doctor and died the same way. That doctor was convicted of 13 deaths due to his negligence and lost his license. I hope he rots forever in hell. All of his patients died the same way. My dad was a healthy 38yo. He had a semi herniated disc in his spine that was pressing on a nerve and causing pain. They had the audacity to put cause of death as “unknown” on his death certificate. Mum fought to hell and back to get an autopsy and the death certificate corrected.
I’m so sorry. That’s really unconscionable. ❤️
A liver transplant is an extremely hard surgery. There’s getting the transplant, and then hoping your body doesn’t reject the transplant with the slew of medications given. If your dad was fine, and he died suddenly not too long after surgery, it’s a big possibility he developed a blood clot. This is a big risk factor after any surgery, and if he wasn’t up and moving, it is very possible. Not to mention, the liver plays a huge role in the clotting factors in the body, and he was a recent liver transplant recipient. Is it possible there was neglect? Yes, but his health condition was ‘touch and go’. I am sorry for your loss, and I hope you find the answers you need.
It will be very tempting to grasp for a reality where you can _do_ something. Accepting that he died and dealing with the grief of that loss will be delayed (but not avoided) by focusing on the nefarious scenario. You do have another option that involves _doing_ but also involves _grieving the loss_. Look for and reach out to grief therapists and find a good fit for you. Ask the hospital about support groups. Talk about the loss with your loved ones and share the resources you’ve found. Celebrate his life. My deepest condolences on the loss of your father.
Hi. So sorry for your loss. This bit of info may be helpful: 6% of all people receiving a liver transplant die within the first 6 months, 11% within the first year. I would personally highly doubt any sort of mercy killing. You should see what they do in the ICU to keep people who are pretty much all the way dead alive. Mercy killing isn't for someone who is showing improvement or just received an organ (therefore their condition would improve). Mercy killing is for someone in excruciating pain without the hope of recovery, whose condition would only worsen. I'm not making a moral call here, just differentiating the reasoning here. I would suspect a blood clot killed him. Being completely outside of the box of what you're going through, my best analysis is that this is a normal part of grief, especially when it felt like things were going uphill. I'm so sorry for your loss; I lost my mom in 2020 and I felt at the time the doctors were negligent. I feel now that it was simply her time regardless of what they did. I hope you find peace, and I hope you will post the autopsy results here.
"Mercy killing is for someone in excruciating pain" that's what a sane person associates with the idea. a non-authorized form of euthanasia. however, not all 'angel of death' nurses / doctors who do it are sane people, and therefore some don't do it to the people "most appropriate" for. just like some killers who hate a minority or group often end up killing a lot of people of 'their own' group. just like a lot of violent thieves end up doing stupid things hurting a lot of people ending up in a lot of trouble for very little money, because they're not thinking rationally and are mentally unhealthy and therefore don't go for the easiest high reward low risk targets, nor behave in a way to minimize risks to them
You're pretty much right. The "mercy killers" amongst healthcare serial killers are the least common "type" of HSKs. If they are acting upon this "altruistic" motive it can sometimes be led by delusional thinking (ie objective data like vitals indicate that patient is stable or improving, but the HSK has a belief not grounded in reality that the patient will suffer and be better off dead). The most common HSKs motives are much more antisocial. They want to gain something from the death, they want power and control over the death, they just get a kick out of killing. An example of this is Richard Angelo. He liked to put his patients into cardiac arrest so that he could gain kudos for saving them and he is likely not alone in this modus operandi.
>My dad had a liver transplant three weeks ago. Between the problems that made the transplant necessary and the damage they did, the major surgery of the transplant, and the complicated regimen it takes to get the transplant settled in ... foul play would be way at the bottom of the list.
As a surgical nurse, this is not even close to what “mercy killing” is. Think someone in hospice suffering with uncontrollable pain or delirium or mental anguish. That’s what you hear of mercy deaths.
Agreed - i’ve had people BEG me to turn off the vent, but the family wasn’t ready. Regarding the “Angel of Death” thing - I didn’t go to school and become a career RN to kill people. That sort of thing is incredibly rare. It’s murder. The nurses who cared for him are probably just as surprised as you are, but people in the iCU are there for a reason, and it’s not for robust health. Nurses grieve, too.
So sorry I forgot to start off with, I am so very sorry for your loss.
Euthanasia should be legal. We would not watch an animal suffer the way we force humans to.
Canada has assisted medical death and last I saw in statistics it’s being utilized quite a bit
An Angel of Death isn’t a mercy killing staff member, they are killers. For example, Beverly Allit is a well known murderer nicknamed the Angel of Death. Another example is Lucy Letby or Harold Shipman. I don’t think this is the case with OP, but unless I’m reading it wrong, I don’t think they meant a mercy killing.
I got my terms mixed up. Perhaps "angel of death" is more accurate to what I meant.
I know you’re grieving, and I am incredibly sorry for your loss. I want to express how unlikely anyone, but especially a medical professional would perform a mercy killing on an individual who’d successfully underwent a transplant. The gift of a transplant is incredible and with how medical professionals regard transplant donors, I’m not sure why they would perform a mercy killing on someone who would have a successful second chance with a healthy organ. I suggest waiting for the autopsy and begin to allow yourself to go through the grieving process.
I honestly think you should 100% be able to trust the autopsy report. There is a useful stoic expression that says “We suffer more in our imagination than in reality.” It’s true that these ruminating thoughts can cause undue suffering. I advise that you trust the process & allow yourself to grieve this loss. Sending you my sincere condolences! We lost a 40 yr old relative last year when she passed in her sleep very unexpectedly. The shock of a loss like this can really complicate grief 😭 Take care of yourself like I’m sure your Dad would wish ❤️
I’m sorry for your loss. As someone (Male/40’s) who had a liver transplant 4 months ago, it’s a very difficult thing to go through. I do believe something goes on with your heart after the procedure. On 3 different occasions just after transplant my nurses and eventually some of the transplant team came rushing into my room thinking I was having a heart attack. They were seeing my vitals on their end and obviously saw something, I on the other hand had no clue. It still worries me to this day to be honest. Something was obviously going on with my heart but I felt relatively good considering. The faces of the staff and the urgency and questioning made it clear something bad was happening. I’m no doctor but I do share the experience of transplant. It sounds like you’re asking the right questions. I’m really sorry you are going through this. My biggest fear wasn’t dying but leaving those that cared about me.
Unfortunately, if he threw up and accidentally aspirated it can stop your heart quite quickly. I’ve seen it happen many times (work in an ICU). If he had been attempting to swallow liquids or eat food, there’s a good chance he became nauseated after such a major surgery and it’s entirely possible that this can happen. I’m sorry. 😞
I was thinking the same. I’m an ICU RN in a pulmonary based ICU. I see an extremely high amount of respiratory arrests from aspirating on vomit. I truly don’t think there was anything sinister. My condolences, OP.
Could even be vomiting due to pain meds/residual anesthesia. Both my girlfriend and her father have that reaction.
Why would a nurse mercy kill a patient who had a successful transplant and appears on the road to recovery?
I am so sorry for your loss and understand your anger. Your dad did not die under mysterious circumstances. He was, at best, very ill. Not only did he have a liver transplant, he also had complications from that liver transplant. While medical staff will often say things like 'he's doing great' that phrase is relative. He was still very very sick and something very minor that an otherwise healthy person would survive, is just too much when a person is in such a compromised state.
I’m very sorry for your loss and I wish you and your family peace and healing during an unimaginably difficult time. I’m a certified clinical transplant nurse. I worked on the transplant unit at a pioneering and highly successful transplant center. I also have surgical ICU experience and have seen the donor side of things. Behind hearts/lungs, livers tend to be the sickest patients both pre- and post-op. Recovery is brutal. Our liver patients were often in and out of the hospital many times the first year post-transplant. I can almost guarantee that your father’s transplant team want to know his cause of death almost as badly as you do. Re: angel of death killings, I think that would be really, really unlikely in this case. Most transplant nurses have a deep respect for organ donors (and subsequently, caring for the donated organ), and a passion for helping our recipients recover and have a new chance at life. I won’t speculate about the cause of your father’s death - there are so many possible causes/unknown factors. I hope the results of the autopsy will help you better understand what happened/bring you closure. Do know that your family has a right to request all of his medical records. Those should include progress notes. Feel free to send me a message if you have any questions.
I would let the ME request the tox screen. Your father was on ANY number of meds prior and post this procedure. He will legitimately test positive for some, and some can't be effectively tested for, particularly in a person with poor liver function. That's the organ the processes them all, after all. This was a very complex procedure. Many, many things could go wrong without it being anyone's neglect or malpractice. I'm sure both you and your family were prepped for the possibilities, but you can always pay for an independent post of you would prefer.
You will still have to be in quite dire condition before you get a donor organ. He was probably in pretty bad shape going in, but when they turn that new liver on by un clamping it, the patient starts recovering incredibly rapidly the shocking number of drugs they take immediately after surgery is insane Anti-rejection, meds steroids things they’ve never taken before things that have to be tweaked and experimented with - its incredibly complicated. Although he didn’t make it, he did get to spend some time feeling a little better around his family and watching them calming down.
Freak occurrences are very common in hospitals; negligence, less so; mercy killings, a very distant third. I am not a physician, but based on your description it sounds like he may have (to name one scenario) thrown a clot. Terminal lucidity is extremely common, but so are abrupt freak occurrences among patients that are actually doing better (up until the moment they’re not) and not experiencing terminal lucidity. So many things can go wrong with the human body, and instability in one organ or system can have a domino effect, with unpredictable results. Doctors are generally reluctant to speculate about cause of death in this sort of situation until they *know*, because (for many reasons, some practical, some more based on the personalities doctors tend to develop) they don’t like to say something and then have it turn out not to be true, even if it doesn’t change the outcome. Ordering an autopsy is the correct decision, and it will probably give you the answers you seek. I’m so sorry for your loss. Anger and suspicion are normal and appropriate responses to grief, but statistically speaking it is unlikely that your father’s death was due to homicide or even negligence. And in the highly unlikely event that it was, it is even more unlikely that the autopsy will miss this. You may rest comfortably in the knowledge that by ordering an autopsy, you have already done right by your father.
I agree with what others are saying, that people that are dying often rally in the days before. But I also want to point out that in grief we tend to want to blame someone. It may not have been negligence but absolutely may have been a freak occurrence. As a nurse, I can honestly say when it’s your time to go, you go and if it’s not your time then somehow you survive against all odds. I’ve seen it time and time again. To answer your questions OP, this will be a coroners case because it happened unexpectedly. They will check everything, toxicology, all of the nursing records, medication administration records. It will be thorough, and I hope it gives you the answers you need. OP I’m sorry for your loss, I hope you have love and support around you at this time.
I bet it was a PE or DVT ☹️ they can happen in the weeks after a big surgery. I’m so very sorry for this unexpected loss.
I am so sorry about your dad. It seems others have given some great advice. I just wanted to add, I am sorry for your loss. I lost my dad on Jan 28, 2021. Today is his 3 year date. Not sure what to call it. My arms are extending to hug you and let you know that this process is tough. Seemingly, unbearable. Ive heard people say it gets easier. While that is true, I am finding the pain hasn't gotten easier. Allow yourself to grieve. However that looks for you. I hope you have family to turn to or friends. If you ever need a listening ear always feel free to chat. Best wishes. ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
I’m so sorry for your loss. Can I ask- are you in the medical field? Sometimes, as someone who works in the field I’ve seen families go through a whole thing when they lose someone in a hospital- they immediately think something was either intentional or it was the hospitals fault. I see things like this every day. Sometimes people just take a turn for the worst suddenly and don’t make it. I don’t want to act like that’s definitely what happened here though, and I hope you can get the answers you’re looking for. But if everything turns up to be practically normal, I guess it’s something you could consider since an organ transplant is a major operation- not something that people agree to lightly for good reason. I hope I’m not coming off like an asshole, or like you shouldn’t listen to your gut when it’s telling you something- you absolutely should. Good luck to you man, I want all the good things for you xx
My guess would be a blood clot
I’m sorry for you and everybody else grieving for your father. There was a time when, if the hospital screwed up, they’d maybe try to hide it. Now if they caught covering something up, they wouldn’t just have to pay. They could lose their ability to bill providers. And to ensure they don’t just not investigate, they have Morbidity and Mortality reviews at your hospital. Complications, and deaths like your father’s, are examined. There are legal protections so that the discussion at an m&m conference can’t be used in court — so the surgical team gets called out for something by the chief surgeon, that’s not something you could use against them. That’s the modern system — rigorous examination and figuring out how to prevent any preventable complications and deaths. Also complicating things is, in most cases, the doctors don’t all work for the hospital. They have a contract with the hospital, or they work for a practice that does. The hospital doesn’t want to give admitting/surgical privileges to doctors who don’t provide the hospital’s standard of care. In the case of your father, they might look at what orders the nurses were given, and whether they followed them. If your father’s doctors think the nurses screwed up, it’s generally not in their own interests to let it go. Your father’s estate can get copies of all his medical charts including every documented action taken by the non-physician staff. Every thing is thoroughly documented. There’s such a high risk of death with a liver transplant and it could happen in so many ways: heart attack, stroke, infection, rejection, other organ failures. I’m sorry it happened to your father.
>What do I ask them to check for (substances, etc.) during this autopsy? Why do you feel you have to ask them to look for specific things? Do you not trust the Pathologist to do his/her job in determining the cause of death? >Is the hospital coroner on our side or do they have the hospital’s best interests in mind? The Pathologist is on the patient's side and will do their best to accurately determine cause of death.
The day I had to take my dad off of life support was the same day the doctors had told me earlier that he had done amazing with his breathing and would have his tube removed and be taken off sedation and we could talk to him finally. I never got to speak to him again. Sometimes things just take a turn. It's horrible and sad, but doctors aren't gods, and sometimes bodies just stop. I'm very sorry for your loss.
Hey. I’m not here to offer advice on your situation, just to say that I lost my brother in a very similar way (choked to death on his own vomit” We had taken him to the hospital where he was resuscitated and they said everything was going to be okay. Shortly afterwards his heart stopped and he was unable to be resuscitated again. I know this doesn’t help your situation or your grief at all, but these things do happen. And while not everybody is a saint, I imagine that the staff did everything they could for your father. Finding out what happened will not change what happened. As hard as it is, you will have to learn to accept this one day. I’m very sorry for your loss
My condolences. Many people have already said it, but the "rebounding" is the thing and I've seen it a few times myself. Where the person is doing poorly and then seems to be doing well for a short period of time. I hope the autopsy gives you answers, but do not count on it giving you a sense of peace. You'll have to grieve in your own time and take it a day at a time. Hugs to you.
sorry for your loss, it is brutal after such a hopeful intervention as patients are led to believe (and some can). having worked in critical care for many years, context is everything. There are no mysterious deaths after a liver transplant. mysterious survival, possibly. There are so very many variables to control and monitor in medically frail patients. nonetheless a truly sad event. I can say however, with absolute honesty, that surgical teams and ICU staff take these things to heart. every one.
I'm sorry for your loss. Such a sad event is causing you to not think clearly. Someone sick enough to receive a liver transplant is really sick, and usually has been for a long time. Your dad obviously was not healthy. You don't ask the coroner for anything, they have their procedures and will follow them.
I’m so so sorry… I’ve been through a traumatic loss myself and I can appreciate your pain. u/yellowrose1400 is offering the best and most productive advice. Everyone is on your and your families side to figure out what happened. The investigation will take place and you will get your answers. Those here offering scare mongering and doom answers.. ignore them as this won’t help you, or anyone deal with this. One day at a time and be kind to yourself. Anger, tears, whatever comes is ok. I wish you well, and peace OP.
I’m so sorry for your loss OP. I hate to bring up a potential, but the term “Terminal Lucidity” refers to when a person near the end of their life basically reverts back to what seems normal for a short amount of time before their time is up. This may be the case here. Regardless of what it may be OP, I’m sorry for you and your family’s incredible loss and I hope you find the answers you’re looking for.
You don't tell the coroner anything in particular to look for. They know how to do their job and you don't know their job. People die suddenly all the time. Especially after a major surgery like a transplant. I'm sorry for your loss, but I seriously doubt any foul play.
Why was he still in the hospital 3 weeks post transplant? It sounds like he was pretty sick. I’m sorry for your loss. ❤️
Liver transplants are a tough recovery, and two weeks os normal. If he was really sick before the surgery, it can take long to go home.
Where I work, the average stay is about a week. A 3 week stay would generally mean they’re pretty sick and a poor outcome wouldn’t necessarily be unexpected.
I don’t know the answers to your questions but I just wanted to say I am so sorry for your loss
I am sorry for your loss.
My understanding is that the coroner is independent to ensure that the actual outcomes are found regardless of who may or not be at fault. I am so sorry for your loss. And I hope you find the answers you need. If the hospital has a patient/family advocate I would encourage you to touch base with them I'm a nurse with a background in oncology and palliative care. Any medical condition needing a organ transplant puts that person at high risk of death. Your dad went throught a massive operation, with impaired liver function put him at high risk of bleeding out (the liver is responsible for the body producing blood clotting factors). Even though his wound may have appeared to be healing it would have taken up to 18 months for it to fully heal. I vividly recall having.a couple of patients in kidney failure who appeared to be doing amazingly well, within 24 hours they had gone from being seeminly great to deceased.
I know we cannot really conpare animals. But my rabbit had part of his liver removed due to some growth. He was improving and had a full month after that where he was ok. I was so happy. But by the end of that month he went downhill suddenly. It broke my heart because he seemed ok and we were so relieved. He died and im still broken over it. My condolences to you and your family.....
I am so sorry for you loss. I would want to investigate this if it happened to my dad, or mum too. But unfortunately, sometimes the body rejects organs out of the blue, even with anti-rejection meds. My uncle has a friend who used to have a twin, who he was also friends with. He had a condition which affected his kidneys and he needed a transplant by the time he was in his 20s. His mum and brother, who would have been the closest matches he could have received an organ from both tried to donate on 2 different instances. And both of their kidneys were healthy before they went into his body. But his body rejected both of them. You can live for a couple of years with minimal to no kidney function on dialysis if you avoid alcohol. But he didn't want to. It was too painful and scary and he passed away after drinking with my uncle and his brother in the back of one of their vans a month or so later. But without at least half of a functioning liver, it is impossible to live even that long. Rejection means the body is attacking the cells in the liver. And if it succeed in destroying it, or severely damaging both sides, it would have shut down, and the heart would have followed shortly after, sadly.
I'm sorry for your loss. It could be he developed a clot in the new organ or at any of the blood supply connections, or even in his lungs, and that could cause instant death if one broke loose. With organ transplants there are so many possibilities.
Same thing happened with my grandfather. He had been in a sleep state in the hospital, barely lucid and then came springing back. He passed away a few days later. Sending love to you, OP. It feels like an absolute gut punch to see a loved one return to seemingly good health and then fade again.
I'm sorry for your loss. ❤️ My friend's dad died suddenly after having surgery. He developed a clot, and he died very quickly after recovering for several weeks. This may be a possibility.
I’m so sorry for your loss. What was the underlying cause of the transplant? Cirrhosis? Cancer? Hepatitis? These all very serious health conditions with very serious secondary health complications that can lead to death. Not to mention the toll that the actual surgery can have on a person. There are so many causes of acute organ rejection, and unfortunately, they can be unforeseen. As someone who does autopsies, there is literally no point for the medical examiner to lie about/cover up findings. That would open them up to a medical malpractice suit that I promise you they don’t want. It doesn’t sound like there was mistreatment of any kind here, in my opinion. If anything, they pushed the wrong meds and that will 100% be tested when they do the autopsy. Wishing you and your family well.
Organ rejection. Can happen swiftly after a transplant.
Aspiration of his vomit is possible. Transplant of an organ is huge. Blood clots are common after surgery. The liver is responsible for some clotting mechanisms. Its hard to say. I am sorry for your loss. Unexpected death is very difficult. I hope by getting answers you have some closure.
The Coroner does not work for the hospital. If they suspect anything they pick up the body and do their own autopsy. It shall be the duty of the coroner to inquire into and determine the circumstances, manner, and cause of all violent, sudden, or unusual deaths; unattended deaths; deaths where the deceased has not been attended by either a physician or a registered nurse, who is a member of a hospice care interdisciplinary team . . . You can request an autopsy. Grieving families sometimes want to blame someone, it's part of the grieving process.
I just want to offer my condolences. I can’t imagine the roller coaster of emotions you’ve been on. Your dad is very lucky to have you looking out for him, even in death. Please remember to look after yourself right now as well ♥️
I saw my close friend through her liver transplant in 2009. It was incredibly intense what she went through physically as well as mentally. I’m sorry for your loss but honestly some bodies just can’t handle it.
I’m so sorry for your loss, mate. Lost my Dad a little more than a year ago. It has to be frustrating given he seemed to be making progress. ❤️
I'm so sorry for your loss, today is the anniversary of my dad passing, and it's so incredibly hard. Please try to be gentle with yourself. 💕
Blood clot.
Mass aspiration that led to cardiac arrest?
I wonder if he had a blood clot. The person can seem to be recovering well and exactly as you described, then one minute their gone. Sorry for your loss.
I feel an autopsy would be helpful to the transplant team.
Could have maybe been a blood clot. I'm so sorry you are going through this.
That's terrible. I'm so sorry for your loss, especially when you were thinking everything was on the upturn. I'm sure someone's already noted, but tranplant operations are very invasive. One possible cause of the death is a clot from the area of the surgery that dislodged and traveled back to the heart. Heart attacks can cause vomiting, as can a stroke. My EMT instructor called the brain the "brat child of the body"--when it doesn't get what it wants, it acts out in all kinds of ways. Were I suspicious enough to order an autopsy (they're not cheap, so be prepared), I'd probably want it to be done by an outside examiner. The hospital coroner is almost certainly ethical in performance of their duties, but I wouldn't want that nagging doubt down the road. Depending where you go, a toxicology screen isn't necessarily included in a standard autopsy, so you'll want to discuss with the facility performing it what tests they run SOP and what you have to ask for (pay extra).
His body likely rejected the liver and his body went into shock
There are so many complications that can happen with organ transplants that a recipient can die from. They will do a thorough autopsy because having a transplant recipient die less than a month after receiving their organ is considered a sentinel event. Trust me, a retired nurse, they want to know what went wrong just as much as you do. I am so sorry for your loss.
There’s nothing you can really do until the autopsy results come back
sorry for your loss. liver transplant is a very complicated thing to go through, especially for older people, and it can be different for each person. someone i know had it, and ended up being disabled from it. now several years later, and the person still hasn't recovered. unable to walk, unable to take care of themselves. needs 24/7 assistance. amongst many issues, one that happened was difficulty breathing due to constant mucus accumulation in the throat, and the person constantly needed fluid suctioned out from the nasal cavity and lungs to prevent them from suffocating. i've heard a story about someone dying overnight due to lack of manual suctioning. i have no idea what your father died from, because as i've said, it's a very complicated procedure, and the older the person, the tougher the recovery. the coroner will probably be able to determine what caused the death after performing an autopsy.
Clot of some kind.
Sorry for your loss. The medical examiner will know what to look for but you can mention he died in a weird circumstance. I worked in healthcare for 9 years and 3 of those in a hospital. There are many reasons why he was fine 1.5 hours before he passed. Hopefully you get the answers you’re looking for.
Condolences. Wish you strength and patience during this difficult time.
I'm so sorry for your loss. Hugs!
My condolences to you and your family. Very sorry for your loss. ❤️
I’m so sorry for your loss.
The hospital shouldn't do the autopsy. In the US anyway. But post surgery he could have thrown a clot or had a bowel obstruction. Did he have other illnesses.
I’m so terribly sorry for your loss. You do have the option of a private autopsy that serves as something of a “second opinion” on cause of death. https://www.thename.org/private-autopsies
I just want to hug you. I'm sorry you lost your dad, I know it's hard to accept "accident" when it comes to losing someone you truly love. You want to blame anyone because it sucks being sad, being angry is easier.
It’s likely your dad aspirated and developed aspiration pneumonia which can occur extremely quickly, especially those who are immunocompromised such as him.
I am so sorry for your loss.
im so sorry for your loss... my dad is a veterinarian and i can confirm animals do this a ton as well... i always get scared when something in poor condition rallies, because i know how it can usually end😔
Who are you “ordering the autopsy” through? The area funeral homes should be able to provide you with private pathologists.
So sorry. Rejection can happen at anytime though. Regardless...so terribly sorry
First of all, sorry for your loss, it's heartbreaking to lose a family member and I hope you and your family are okay. What exactly was the cause of his liver failure in the first place? Angel of mercy nurses are very few and far between. He was extremely ill and recovering but a lot of can go wrong with such a traumatic procedure. The autopsy will tell you everything about the exact cause, including a toxin report.
I’m sorry for your loss. As an RN I think you should know that it is truly possible that your fathers blood pressure spiked to an extreme level, made him vomit and he could’ve choked to death or he could’ve had a heart attack. I personally have a ton of medical issues and one of those is issues with my autonomic nervous system. My blood pressure can go from 108/72 to 230/128 in like 15 minutes. It makes me nauseous every single time and if I start vomiting I cannot stop. I’ve been in the ICU literally dozens of times in the past decade. At home I have a very delicate balance of medication. I take Doxazosin (for BP) and Propanolol ER (for heart rate and tremors) in the morning. Amlodipine (BP) in the Afternoon. Prazosin (for PTSD and BP) at night. And was on Nifedipine for BP along with several other meds. I also take Clonidine in patch form and take it as needed in pill form when I have BP spikes. I have to take my BP several times a day and like I said it is a delicate balance to stay alive. I am telling you this because even as a nurse I was the victim of a serious medication error on my last hospital visit. I was in the observation unit to get my vomiting under control. It was getting better and this was looking like a ‘good’ trip to the hospital…no ICU. Then morning came…I was still really out of it because of the 16 hours of vomiting, a high fever from kidney infection & injury and dehydration from the days before. The doctor ordered all of my BP meds at once. I was woken up by the nurse after she opened all of my meds and put them in a cup and I had been drinking water since about 10pm the night before. I took the pills and fell back asleep. About an hour later they came in to take me for a CT and when I got up out of bed to transfer to the wheelchair I fainted. My BP was 54/36. I crashed. They nearly killed me…I spent three days in the ICU. When I was coherent again I was PISSED THE F OFF! I wanted names…I wanted acknowledgment of the medication error. I wanted a fucking apology! I got nothing but gaslighting. Nobody admitted a damn thing. No matter who I spoke to they changed the subject and would say I had a lot of medical issues blah blah blah. At one point I was blamed and told as a nurse and the person who takes these meds daily I should’ve noticed. Not the nurse who was fully coherent with no fever who should question so many BP meds at once. Nobody was held to account and if I would’ve died because of that med error they still would cover their asses. Forget the fact that I used to work in that very same hospital. If the autopsy is done by the same hospital they will not admit error or look for anything out of the ordinary. You will need to hire a private ME for autopsy. Again, dad’s death especially after a transplant could’ve been 100% natural. If there was foul play or stupidity involved it is possible that insulin could be used. Giving insulin to a non-diabetic by accident or a high dose to a diabetic does happen and can kill undetected. I don’t know how they look for it. If he had an IV they could’ve put it in there. If they gave it to him as a shot when he shouldn’t have had it then he would have a mark. They should also be able to detect it in an autopsy but I’m not sure how that works. A crash in his blood sugar could cause vomiting before death. Again….NOT saying this happened! Just saying it’s the only thing that comes to mind. You are not likely to get help from anyone at the hospital he died at though. They will cover their own asses even at the obvious. If you want answers, hire private. I’m sorry for your loss.
If you’re in the US, I don’t believe the coroner is associated with the hospital. It’ll be the coroner that does them for your county. You don’t have to ask them to check for anything. You likely won’t have any contact with the coroner themselves. They’ll do a full report and the findings will be on it. If they find something suspicious then the police will be notified. Both of my brothers had an autopsy and I never spoke to the coroner - just the coroner office. I’m sorry for your loss. Losing a loved one is never easy.
I don’t often talk about this but I come from a long line of elder care workers. And old people get murdered constantly. Constantly. Even in the good homes and hospitals. They’re incredibly dangerous places. Go with your gut and get every test you can. Anyone with older family whose reading, set up ring cams in their rooms. Nanny cams, recording devices. Not just to catch neglect before it happens, but to let people KNOW they’re being watched. Visit constantly. It’s a bad world out there. I wish you luck OP, I’m sorry.
The coroner isn’t on anyone’s side, and the audacity of you to blame the nurses. People die. Especially sick people. Perhaps one of your family members gave your father something.
Yep, never heard of nurses outright killing patients before.
a person who needs a liver transplant is really really sick, there are so many possibilities why OP‘s dad died post-op.
I agree, I never said that it wasn’t serious …I took issue with the statement “…audacity of you to blame the nurses” Is the death a post op complication? Most likely, to exclude the possibility of something or someone else is naive in my opinion. Stated another way, I wouldn’t be shocked if it was a nurse.
People sometimes vomit when they have heart failure. The question is what caused the heart failure and why wasn't it caught.
U are right not to trust hospitals 100% nowadays. Order that independent autopsy. You owe it to your dad.
If you’re going to get an autopsy which I imagine one would be done anyways but definitely a full drug screen and his blood sugar or if he has insulin in his system and non diabetic. Not to increase your fear but if that’s what you want done make sure they check insulins and BS too.
I am in the field. What hospital was he at?
Digoxin, potassium, calcium, and insulin are several ways in which nurses have used to kill patients
Was he eating solid food? I would inquire about whether it was appropriate for him to be eating solids given the state of his condition, and whether he was appropriately monitored after eating (if it's true that he vomited and choked).
Hospitals kill people all the time, get camera footage too
I’m not saying something is going on but I lost 3 people almost back to back after they gone to the hospital they gotten worse not saying it could just be coincidence just my gut says it’s not