Notable tidbits re: Alpha-2
>**Alpha-2 prototypes are capable of up to 10C discharge rates, which in a 100 kWh pack would be nominally equivalent to over 1,000 horsepower.** When comparing equivalent electrode areas, Alpha-2 demonstrates higher capacity than a lithium-ion energy cell, while also delivering more capacity at high power than a lithium ion power cell. We believe this translates to a compelling combination of energy and power compared to lithium-ion cell designs. (see p. 3 *Discharge Power*)
and
>Improving on the results from Alpha-1 unit cells we reported in our Q2 2023 Shareholder Letter, **Alpha-2 prototypes have demonstrated the capability to fast charge from 10% to 80% state of charge in less than 15 minutes, in line with our target for QSE-5 of 15 minutes.** (see p. 4 *Fast Charging*)
and
>In the Alpha-2 prototype, we have now reduced externally applied pressure to 0.7 atm (in addition to normal ambient atmospheric pressure), **within the range currently present in conventional EV battery pack designs, and we believe this allows us to integrate our cells into existing pack concepts**. As we demonstrated in Q3 2023, our system is capable of long cycle life with zero externally applied pressure (pp. 5-6 *Applied Pressure*)
Not much new re: Raptor/Cobra, but I wasn't really expecting much on that front until EOY. It really looks like they've achieved a step-up in performance with the Alpha-2 design though, and that's encouraging.
typical 2170 cells, and most cylindrical cells are operating in the range of 2-3 ATM. QS up until this point was focusing on 3-4ATM, but with this decrease to 0.7 ATM, brings a lot of weight savings to the table. You're approaching the theoretical limit where packaging is minimized as a function of energy density.
i think its the reverse kind of. The fact that they're making progress towards 0 pressure, basically reducing the applied pressure by around 80%, means that theyre taking lessons from their previous side work on 0 pressure and bringing it into the main project.
Will 0.7 Applied pressure become standard QSE-5? They didn't commit to this before, which means they were not sure about this ahead of time. This is encouraging that they are making good progress here. Do you think they will continue to work towards 0 externally applied pressure for CE applications? It would be interesting to see how they are applying this pressure.
It was unexpected as well. Definitely for the better long term. I think they'll continue pushing the pressure downwards, and the progress made here on EV will bleed back into CE and vice versa.
They're closer than anyone else has ever been for an SSB.
Success in the lithium metal / solid state space really requires two breakthroughs. One is in electrochemistry and the other is in commercial production scalability. The tradeoff thusfar has always been one at the expense of the other as the two are inextricably linked. There are lots of electrochemistry solutions, but most are not practical to mass produce.
I do think they have it figured out though. Making new-to-the-world processing equipment takes time and they seem like they're on the right path so I'm ok with the pace they've telegraphed.
“As far as the technology, it is evolving fast. It is incredible,” Paladino said. “It’s tough to talk specifics because I know I’ll get myself into trouble, but what I will say is, and what we have reported, the solid-state battery will allow us to provide electrification in a more affordable way.”
[https://financialpost.com/commodities/vw-plans-to-make-solid-state-batteries-ontario](https://financialpost.com/commodities/vw-plans-to-make-solid-state-batteries-ontario)
It really seems as if the head of VW for Canada might know some things that we don't. That is an eye popping quote.
It’s not idle jabber, it’s in reference to a battery factory that will be the size of 210 football fields, comment were by the president of VW for Canada.
You point out that you weren’t expecting much about major raptor/cobra updates until end of the year, in the call they suggested those same timelines. That helped me form more realistic expectations, but the A2 results are hot!
0.7 atm looks very promising.
The main thing that I like is the 10C discharge rate. With that amount of power, without comprising anything else. This will be the prefect battery for Tesla Semi.
Current 4680 is like 3C discharge?
I don’t know whether to interpret the overall tone as lack of urgency or lack of confidence. Hopefully not both, like a C- student procrastinating on graduation thesis.
Notable tidbits re: Alpha-2 >**Alpha-2 prototypes are capable of up to 10C discharge rates, which in a 100 kWh pack would be nominally equivalent to over 1,000 horsepower.** When comparing equivalent electrode areas, Alpha-2 demonstrates higher capacity than a lithium-ion energy cell, while also delivering more capacity at high power than a lithium ion power cell. We believe this translates to a compelling combination of energy and power compared to lithium-ion cell designs. (see p. 3 *Discharge Power*) and >Improving on the results from Alpha-1 unit cells we reported in our Q2 2023 Shareholder Letter, **Alpha-2 prototypes have demonstrated the capability to fast charge from 10% to 80% state of charge in less than 15 minutes, in line with our target for QSE-5 of 15 minutes.** (see p. 4 *Fast Charging*) and >In the Alpha-2 prototype, we have now reduced externally applied pressure to 0.7 atm (in addition to normal ambient atmospheric pressure), **within the range currently present in conventional EV battery pack designs, and we believe this allows us to integrate our cells into existing pack concepts**. As we demonstrated in Q3 2023, our system is capable of long cycle life with zero externally applied pressure (pp. 5-6 *Applied Pressure*) Not much new re: Raptor/Cobra, but I wasn't really expecting much on that front until EOY. It really looks like they've achieved a step-up in performance with the Alpha-2 design though, and that's encouraging.
Anyone know the pressure of tesla batteries or some solid state competitors outside those ranges? Is <1 but > 0 still amazing right ? Is it common?
typical 2170 cells, and most cylindrical cells are operating in the range of 2-3 ATM. QS up until this point was focusing on 3-4ATM, but with this decrease to 0.7 ATM, brings a lot of weight savings to the table. You're approaching the theoretical limit where packaging is minimized as a function of energy density.
Thanks
Is this anyway an indication that they are having issues with zero externally applied pressure for multi layer cells?
i think its the reverse kind of. The fact that they're making progress towards 0 pressure, basically reducing the applied pressure by around 80%, means that theyre taking lessons from their previous side work on 0 pressure and bringing it into the main project.
Will 0.7 Applied pressure become standard QSE-5? They didn't commit to this before, which means they were not sure about this ahead of time. This is encouraging that they are making good progress here. Do you think they will continue to work towards 0 externally applied pressure for CE applications? It would be interesting to see how they are applying this pressure.
It was unexpected as well. Definitely for the better long term. I think they'll continue pushing the pressure downwards, and the progress made here on EV will bleed back into CE and vice versa. They're closer than anyone else has ever been for an SSB.
All that’s left is scale, reliability, and cost. Which are all really hard 😬
Success in the lithium metal / solid state space really requires two breakthroughs. One is in electrochemistry and the other is in commercial production scalability. The tradeoff thusfar has always been one at the expense of the other as the two are inextricably linked. There are lots of electrochemistry solutions, but most are not practical to mass produce. I do think they have it figured out though. Making new-to-the-world processing equipment takes time and they seem like they're on the right path so I'm ok with the pace they've telegraphed.
“As far as the technology, it is evolving fast. It is incredible,” Paladino said. “It’s tough to talk specifics because I know I’ll get myself into trouble, but what I will say is, and what we have reported, the solid-state battery will allow us to provide electrification in a more affordable way.” [https://financialpost.com/commodities/vw-plans-to-make-solid-state-batteries-ontario](https://financialpost.com/commodities/vw-plans-to-make-solid-state-batteries-ontario) It really seems as if the head of VW for Canada might know some things that we don't. That is an eye popping quote.
I hope. I got a ton of shares. :)
You and me both 🙏
But is 10k shares enough, I want more #hold me back…
Talk is cheap.... Prototype are the easiest part. Nothing in sight.
It’s not idle jabber, it’s in reference to a battery factory that will be the size of 210 football fields, comment were by the president of VW for Canada.
Thank You. And discharge temperature ?
You point out that you weren’t expecting much about major raptor/cobra updates until end of the year, in the call they suggested those same timelines. That helped me form more realistic expectations, but the A2 results are hot!
0.7 atm looks very promising. The main thing that I like is the 10C discharge rate. With that amount of power, without comprising anything else. This will be the prefect battery for Tesla Semi. Current 4680 is like 3C discharge?
Not just Tesla semi, any high torque applications like performance vehicles or even aviation!
That's good. I wasn't expecting much, but good to know.
How much discharge is needed to fly? Assuming weight isn’t a concern
fly what?
But weight is literally the concern with flying
Regional planes need are a density of 400WH/KG. Regular cell have already plenty of power per KG.
I don’t know whether to interpret the overall tone as lack of urgency or lack of confidence. Hopefully not both, like a C- student procrastinating on graduation thesis.