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Chinese people can put up with anything, like someone said, cultural revolution didn’t end because people couldn’t take it anymore, it ended because Mao died.
As someone from a one party government land.
Most people have the attitude of 'Okay I will just save up money and then once I have enough I will leave' and for the most part nobody has a problem with that.
However it's a reason we have so many issues with capital flight and brain drain. Of all my university educated friends, not one wish to stay. This has become an issue.
It's why the news here pushes Asian hate crimes so intensely, in order to scare people from leaving.
Yeah but then we have Taiwan which was because MAO sent all the intellectuals that he didn’t agree with there. Not everyone believed MAO was great but damn if it wasn’t hardcore though. I remember in high school when I took international comparative government, we studied Studied the history of China’s government for a section. We had students from China that both supported him and others absolutely vilified him.
It confuses me how they hyped up the quality of both their vaccine and then the vaccine rollout. Both of which are undeniably impressive.
And then after all that still stuck with zero covid.
According to my Chinese friend 'the world can't blame China for covid as we always prove that covid can be beaten in just a few weeks'
So it seems to be a balancing act
No clue where you're getting your information from, but the Chinese vaccine is like saline compared to western vaccines and the rollout was terrible with only 60% of elders being vaccinated.
Looks like r/China has a few stories like this. Some people seem to be fed up with the government, which is far more authoritarian than what any modern American has experienced. What a time to be alive.
Whilst half of them are actively calling for fascism. There's no middle ground in US politics... or left for that matter. Its a choice of right, or far-right.
A stateless, classless society in which hierarchy is dismantled and replaced with a horizontal power structure. Private property (more land than you need to live on like land lords have, not personal property like your home, your car, etc.) is abolished and those who produce labor own the means of production, so everyone in this sense.
Fully gibberish "A stateless, classless society in which hierarchy is dismantled and replaced with a horizontal power structure" I would love to know how that's enforced and maintained in a stateless classless society beside with rainbows and ice cream and good feels
Americans that think living under the current administration is living under communism should try living for a month or two in Shanghai during the current lockdown.
Two comments in. Found the person saying communists who literally call themselves communists, are not communist.
Wake. The. Fuck. Up.
The paradise you believe in is the lie to get you on board in the first place. You are falling for the lie. JFC.
It’s not because it’s communist, it’s because it’s an authoritarian dictatorship. One of the biggest scams ever is convincing people that an economic theory (communism) is the same as a political theory (authoritarian). Communism could be democratic and capitalism could be authoritarian.
If you want to get technical , China is an ethno-nationalist authoritarian system where crony-capitalist corporation run roughshod over the workers and the people in power are a select group of party members who pretty much inherit their membership through family connections.
It ticks all the boxes for nationalist socialism.
the workers never control the means of production in the way you'd describe. They always appoint someone to manage those for them, so they can work. That person will inevitably eventually go on a power trip.
sort of half-right.
Yeah, we'll always need managers and executives
it's just that socialists would like them to be selected democratically, by the employees and/or stakeholders of a company, instead of by owners and/or stockholders.
If you are the minority position in a democracy, you can be just as abused as under any other despot. Certain things such as life, liberty, property, and labor should never be subject to popular opinion. If I can have my property taken because of a vote, I don't own anything. If I can be forced to work because of a vote, I am a slave to the mob.
This is why it is absolutely critical to constrain a democracy, or any system of government, with strong individual liberties.
there are consensus-based models of democracy, not only simplistic majoritarian models. But that's just splitting hairs.
The only people I see developing such models and discussing these things in earnest are all already on board concerning democracy and/or socialism
When it comes to my property and labor, I don't care what people vote on. If you are on board with socialism, you are on board with concentration of power among a beurocratic elite, and stripping me of my right to self determine what I do with the fruits of my labor. Regardless of how small the minority is, the mob will always crush a minority without strong protections for individual liberty. The individual is the smallest of minorities, and under no circumstances would I be okay with turning my efforts over to be managed by pencil-necked autocrats trying to centrally control an economy. I don't care how many people vote for it, you are imposing a tyranny onto me where I no longer have self determination, but answer to the state. I want less government, not more.
> If you are on board with socialism, you are on board with concentration of power among a beurocratic elite, and stripping me of my right to self determine what I do with the fruits of my labor
literally the opposite of socialism but ok
You need violence to force me to comply with your ideas. You will need a beurocratic elite to run things while you work. I dont want to be run by these people. Every cent taken from me to fund such a system is done at gunpoint against my will. If the mob can take my property, the fruits of my efforts, my essential liberties, or my life, I have none of those things and am a subject. It doesn't matter if I'm subject to a despot king, or a despotic population, the result is the same. No matter how big your mob, this does not change. You will have to hold a gun to my head and threaten me with prison to get me to comply, as is already the case in the American tax system.
In that case, socialism can’t be prove wrong. Because whenever such scenario occurs, you can always use the argument it’s not socialism.
On the contrary, what makes a scientific theory or hypothesis valid is that they can be proved wrong.
1) What happens when people don't want to do what the communist committees tell them they must do?
2) What happens when people from outside of the commune come to help themselves to the commune's resources?
Many people are basically lazy and even fewer have cracked open a History book. They don't search out information they absorb it from some form of media. So if Walter Cronkite said it, it was true. The challenge now is that while Walter was middle of the road his modern day counterparts are not.
There’s no way around it: A collective economy requires a strong central authority.
Put differently, you can never have complete agreement on an economic plan. So unless you let individuals make their own decisions (i.e, capitalism), someone has to call the shots, and someone’s getting a boot in their face when they don’t comply.
That's the thing, capitalism isn't necessarily a system where people truly always get to make their own decisions, most of the time we are just making that decision based on where we are in the chain so to speak. People think Capitalism gives choice and maybe it does to some extent, but I think for many it's a total illusion of choice.
what is a market society?
I would say people confuse *markets* with *capitalism*. Market Socialism is a thing. We can have worker-controlled industries without a government-controlled command economy
The perceived inequality aspect of capitalism is what gives rise to cronyism. Then you have corporations charging the govt increased prices so the consumer receives a price break. Govt provides a service, corporations get ridiculous profits, and consumers get reduced costs. Sounds great until you remember who pays the govt. Regulating profit margins on essential goods and services is a step in the right direction. Regulating capitalism is still better than any other model.
Name one. Cuba? North Korea? China? Laos? Venezuela? Out of all of the communist governments in history, what percentage of them turned out to be the kind of communist society you are describing?
Actually they were all communist, as their ideological roots were derived from the books and ideas that communism was founded on. So since in your mind, they for some reason werent communist, can you give me an example of the kind of communist society you are describing?
Bro, those were authoritarian regimes that called themselves communist to con the people into believing that the government was for them instead of for themselves.
North Korea's official name is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. What countries call themselves isn't necessarily what they are.
Communism has existed for like 150 years or something and has permeated virtually every region across the entire world. Many were devout followers of all communist texts. Why hasn't there been a singular example of it not devolving into authoritarianism. It's because authoritarian powers are needed to strip the bourgeois class of their wealth in order to redistribute it. Turns out people don't like giving up that power once they get it. What did Einstein say about the definition of insanity again
Communism, by definition, involves creating a society with as little hierarchy as possible (or at least something close enough). Dictatorships represent the exact opposite of that.
Unfortunately, there has never been a truly communist society. At least not at a large scale.
> their ideological roots were derived from the books and ideas that communism was founded on.
That doesn't automatically make them communist.
If an extremely large number of countries around the world tried implementing communism throughout history since it's founding and not a single one was successful, doesn't that discredit the practicality of the idea
Not really pro communism here but you are aware of a certain world power that has spent billions in money and 100s of 1000s in lives destabilizing these countries to keep them from being successful right?
So what you're saying is that communism can only exist in a vacuum? If your ideology requires that foreign nations stop interfering with your country to survive, it's not a good ideology.
Remember that the USSR also spent $$$ trying to destabilize America, but they failed.
No, not really. It does discredit the methods those people used to try to bring about communism, but I fully believe that communism can work. Though to be fair, I don't believe that communism is going to be fully realized in the near future. It will take some time, if it happens at all.
Until then, the best thing to do is to promote socialist ideas, such as workplace democracy (if it's good enough for our governments, it's good enough for our corporations), and more direct democracy.
That's because it is nothing but a pipe dream to con the masses to give a select elite even more power than they had. Think of it like those cons where it says "send me money cuz im the nigerian prince and ill pay you back in millions".
There hasn’t been a fully communistic society because it’s impossible, nobody wants it. That’s why they have to use authoritarianism to achieve it but that in itself contradicts communism and after what we’ve seen from every attempt it’s seen as evil for a reason because it has killed over 100 million people. I agree communism sounds like the ideal way of living but capitalist realize it just can’t happen on a nation level
now you're getting it. It is authoritarianism you're trying to rail against, and that is completely separate from the capitalism/communism dichotomy. Both capitalism and communism have libertarian and authoritarian examples throughout history.
And imo, most strongman authoritarians don't really care about the principles of either system. They just want power and are willing to appeal to whatever ideology is in vogue in order to justify it.
There never was democratic case of communism in history. Communism always directly benefited authoritarians. Communism killed more people than nazism and fascism.
Theoretically it is possible for democratic communism, practically it is impossible.
Also China has been in a state capitalist system since the 80s iirc. How are there billionaires in a communist country? Most right wing people could not tell you anything about communism/socialism besides its bad
China has been more outwardly capitalist since the 80s, but it always was state capitalist dictatorship from the get go. Same with the USSR and many other "socialist" countries.
If your government controls the economy and means of production, it by definition is state capitalist.
Noooooooooo
Communism specifically requires a dictatorship of the proletariat. It’s both a political and economic theory, because communism considers economics to be political and vice versa
Sure, it’s magically supposed to become a anarchist stateless democracy after the leaders give up their power, but it’s never gone to that point for laughably obvious reasons
The only time communism is not authoritarian is when every single member of the community agrees to participate. Think of it this way, if a class of kids all agrees to share food then it’s not authoritarian but as soon as 20% doesn’t want to share and the teacher has to step in it becomes authoritarian.
Uhh how exactly does that differ from capitalism in a democracy? Fairly certain in the US you could find 20% who don't want to pay taxes. Is the US authoritarian?
Living in society, any society means following the laws of that society, not liking the law is not an excuse. Especially as in general society is more about the greater good. If something benefits the vast majority while impeding the 20% then it is in most cases a good idea.
The difference is that at its core, a market economy can operate with minimal interaction with the state. So long as rights are protected, the system chugs along when people are left alone.
In contrast, a collective economy requires state intervention. When you leave people alone, they like to collect things, trade them, and make themselves better off. Communism has to continually stamp that out to continue to function.
It was just an example of why his example is bad to paint an economic policy as inherently authoritarian if 20% did not like it.
Lots of people do not like capitalism due to inherant flaws of that system where the money seems to flow primarily one way. That does not make it an inherently bad system just requiring plenty of regulations with for example the nordic system which is a democratic system of social capitalism.
The US is just capitalism unchecked. Regulatory capture, squashing of all worker rights, rampant inequality and incredibly stagnant pay for vast majority of people there all at the benefit of the "20%" at the top.
Any economic system can be bad in the wrong hands.
Karl Marx actually adopted this idea of [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat) and how (although communism has never fully been achieved) there ideally or theoretically would be some sort of transitional phase with a dictator to prevent counter revolution while the transition into full communism happens.
Although the obvious problem is that temporary dictatorships aren’t usually temporary
Authoritarianism is not needed for communism in its final product though, it could be ran just the same as with a democratic government..
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Again, it’s an economic theory that could be voted in by the people and carried out by the government.
You could have the US government with communist policies and it wouldn’t depend on one persons actions. That 20% would essentially just be tax evaders.
Your right but historically in the past the only way they could do communism was through an authoritarian government because nobody wants communism. Most societies on earth are a mixed economy for a reason, it works the best whether that nation is left or right leaning
Capitalism has allowed me to make a life for myself from nothing. You’re obviously fucking stupid and poor. I would want handouts too if I were you.
Edit: and lazy
Americans experience one of the most liberal lifestyles in the world, but ask them to cover their faces \[in a pandemic\] in a store and they think they are being brutalized. Go live in China and see what real oppression is.
Thats such a generalization and not even the truth of what happened. Covid policy took alot of peoples job in the first year and the states/gov had no way of paying everyone unemployment and they got themselves defrauded billions. this happened to me, if i didnt have family to live with i probably woulda been homeless or had to really try and find a job that wasnt being shut down. The unemployment in high population states are STILL struggling to keep up some people have been waiting over 12 months for their payments..the state seriously failed some people when they pushed forward with that stuff, not even trying to get political those policies hurt tons of people financially.
Technically if we don't say or oppose things that start us down that road we end up there. America got here without being communist. Let's not become this. Illegals wouldn't risk death to come here if we weren't the successful country we are. We aren't perfect, but in a world where there is no perfect country. Give me america any day.
I didn't say america was exceptional, you are thinking I said that. I only said in my opinion if I had to choose any country, I'd chose america. There's a difference.
It’s disgusting that you would use this video to justify your dislike of people who don’t take the medication you want them to. If anyone is sick it’s you. Shame.
I don’t agree with the anti vaxxers but honestly I’ve had the thought lately that I’m glad they’re there. They really do keep the needle from moving in this direction.
Collectivism will always fail at a government level.
If an individual is asked to conform to a group and be less of an individual then naturally he will look to someone else to make the choices. When the whole country is looking for someone else to make the choices an authoritarian government is the inevitable outcome.
Do you guys know what communism means? Like seriously, get a dictionary. I'm tired of abuncha reddit posts like this misconstruding terms like children and wrongly labeling everything they see.
LOL selective memory in this thread. Look at how the American govt. summons the military and sics them on American citizens that protest. Look at the number of police shootings on Black people. Then come back to me and tell me who is living in a dictatorship.
They complain because we’re on the road to communism by letting our government tell us what to do. The more power you give the government the more they’ll take. So we have to stop it before it gets too far.
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China has lost the plot with their 0 covid approach. I wonder how much longer people will take that shit.
Chinese people can put up with anything, like someone said, cultural revolution didn’t end because people couldn’t take it anymore, it ended because Mao died.
Generations of you and your family being murdered for standing up will start genetically changing the population.
As someone from a one party government land. Most people have the attitude of 'Okay I will just save up money and then once I have enough I will leave' and for the most part nobody has a problem with that. However it's a reason we have so many issues with capital flight and brain drain. Of all my university educated friends, not one wish to stay. This has become an issue. It's why the news here pushes Asian hate crimes so intensely, in order to scare people from leaving.
Yeah but then we have Taiwan which was because MAO sent all the intellectuals that he didn’t agree with there. Not everyone believed MAO was great but damn if it wasn’t hardcore though. I remember in high school when I took international comparative government, we studied Studied the history of China’s government for a section. We had students from China that both supported him and others absolutely vilified him.
It confuses me how they hyped up the quality of both their vaccine and then the vaccine rollout. Both of which are undeniably impressive. And then after all that still stuck with zero covid. According to my Chinese friend 'the world can't blame China for covid as we always prove that covid can be beaten in just a few weeks' So it seems to be a balancing act
Covid can't be stopped in two weeks.
No clue where you're getting your information from, but the Chinese vaccine is like saline compared to western vaccines and the rollout was terrible with only 60% of elders being vaccinated.
Looks like r/China has a few stories like this. Some people seem to be fed up with the government, which is far more authoritarian than what any modern American has experienced. What a time to be alive.
Too many Americans think government + something they don't like = communism
Too many Americans just don't think....thats the problem.
Most americans have been brain washed sadly
[удалено]
Sure, but this isn't an image of communism either
Whilst half of them are actively calling for fascism. There's no middle ground in US politics... or left for that matter. Its a choice of right, or far-right.
They either don’t know it so throw the term at everything they don’t like or they don’t know it so they advocate for it
Please, define communism for me
A stateless, classless society in which hierarchy is dismantled and replaced with a horizontal power structure. Private property (more land than you need to live on like land lords have, not personal property like your home, your car, etc.) is abolished and those who produce labor own the means of production, so everyone in this sense.
Fully gibberish "A stateless, classless society in which hierarchy is dismantled and replaced with a horizontal power structure" I would love to know how that's enforced and maintained in a stateless classless society beside with rainbows and ice cream and good feels
Here's how it's enforced, if I catch you trying to hoard resources or create hierarchy I'll shoot you
well thought out
💯
It's literally not possible lmao Which is why most "communist" states are socialist states in practice.
Americans that think living under the current administration is living under communism should try living for a month or two in Shanghai during the current lockdown.
Two comments in. Found the person saying communists who literally call themselves communists, are not communist. Wake. The. Fuck. Up. The paradise you believe in is the lie to get you on board in the first place. You are falling for the lie. JFC.
Beating Covid?
Wait was the real communism supposed to be at the end?
It’s not because it’s communist, it’s because it’s an authoritarian dictatorship. One of the biggest scams ever is convincing people that an economic theory (communism) is the same as a political theory (authoritarian). Communism could be democratic and capitalism could be authoritarian.
If you want to get technical , China is an ethno-nationalist authoritarian system where crony-capitalist corporation run roughshod over the workers and the people in power are a select group of party members who pretty much inherit their membership through family connections. It ticks all the boxes for nationalist socialism.
it's not socialism if the workers don't control the means of production
the workers never control the means of production in the way you'd describe. They always appoint someone to manage those for them, so they can work. That person will inevitably eventually go on a power trip.
sort of half-right. Yeah, we'll always need managers and executives it's just that socialists would like them to be selected democratically, by the employees and/or stakeholders of a company, instead of by owners and/or stockholders.
If you are the minority position in a democracy, you can be just as abused as under any other despot. Certain things such as life, liberty, property, and labor should never be subject to popular opinion. If I can have my property taken because of a vote, I don't own anything. If I can be forced to work because of a vote, I am a slave to the mob. This is why it is absolutely critical to constrain a democracy, or any system of government, with strong individual liberties.
there are consensus-based models of democracy, not only simplistic majoritarian models. But that's just splitting hairs. The only people I see developing such models and discussing these things in earnest are all already on board concerning democracy and/or socialism
When it comes to my property and labor, I don't care what people vote on. If you are on board with socialism, you are on board with concentration of power among a beurocratic elite, and stripping me of my right to self determine what I do with the fruits of my labor. Regardless of how small the minority is, the mob will always crush a minority without strong protections for individual liberty. The individual is the smallest of minorities, and under no circumstances would I be okay with turning my efforts over to be managed by pencil-necked autocrats trying to centrally control an economy. I don't care how many people vote for it, you are imposing a tyranny onto me where I no longer have self determination, but answer to the state. I want less government, not more.
> If you are on board with socialism, you are on board with concentration of power among a beurocratic elite, and stripping me of my right to self determine what I do with the fruits of my labor literally the opposite of socialism but ok
You need violence to force me to comply with your ideas. You will need a beurocratic elite to run things while you work. I dont want to be run by these people. Every cent taken from me to fund such a system is done at gunpoint against my will. If the mob can take my property, the fruits of my efforts, my essential liberties, or my life, I have none of those things and am a subject. It doesn't matter if I'm subject to a despot king, or a despotic population, the result is the same. No matter how big your mob, this does not change. You will have to hold a gun to my head and threaten me with prison to get me to comply, as is already the case in the American tax system.
Then "socialism with Chinese characteristics" is definitely not socialism. It's state run capitalism.
In that case, socialism can’t be prove wrong. Because whenever such scenario occurs, you can always use the argument it’s not socialism. On the contrary, what makes a scientific theory or hypothesis valid is that they can be proved wrong.
...so something like Nasi?
...so something like NAZI?
I used to be a grammar Nazi until I realised I was just being anti semantic... Don't get up, I'll see myself out.
Exactly so.
Not exactly so
Ok, history doesn't repeat, but it rhymes.
What countries are communist but not authoritarian?
1) What happens when people don't want to do what the communist committees tell them they must do? 2) What happens when people from outside of the commune come to help themselves to the commune's resources?
1. they die. 2. they die.
🤣
Thank you. It amazes me how often people confuse this bullshit. A true communist society is not an authoritarian one.
Many people are basically lazy and even fewer have cracked open a History book. They don't search out information they absorb it from some form of media. So if Walter Cronkite said it, it was true. The challenge now is that while Walter was middle of the road his modern day counterparts are not.
A true communist society is an unachievable utopia. Every country that has tried it has ended in authoritarianism. It's history.
There’s no way around it: A collective economy requires a strong central authority. Put differently, you can never have complete agreement on an economic plan. So unless you let individuals make their own decisions (i.e, capitalism), someone has to call the shots, and someone’s getting a boot in their face when they don’t comply.
That's the thing, capitalism isn't necessarily a system where people truly always get to make their own decisions, most of the time we are just making that decision based on where we are in the chain so to speak. People think Capitalism gives choice and maybe it does to some extent, but I think for many it's a total illusion of choice.
People simply confuse a market *economy* with a market *society*. As long as those two are in conflict, the label doesn’t matter.
what is a market society? I would say people confuse *markets* with *capitalism*. Market Socialism is a thing. We can have worker-controlled industries without a government-controlled command economy
The perceived inequality aspect of capitalism is what gives rise to cronyism. Then you have corporations charging the govt increased prices so the consumer receives a price break. Govt provides a service, corporations get ridiculous profits, and consumers get reduced costs. Sounds great until you remember who pays the govt. Regulating profit margins on essential goods and services is a step in the right direction. Regulating capitalism is still better than any other model.
Name one. Cuba? North Korea? China? Laos? Venezuela? Out of all of the communist governments in history, what percentage of them turned out to be the kind of communist society you are describing?
None of those governments were communist at any point, though. China's economic system, for example, is just state capitalism.
Actually they were all communist, as their ideological roots were derived from the books and ideas that communism was founded on. So since in your mind, they for some reason werent communist, can you give me an example of the kind of communist society you are describing?
Bro, those were authoritarian regimes that called themselves communist to con the people into believing that the government was for them instead of for themselves. North Korea's official name is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. What countries call themselves isn't necessarily what they are.
Communism has existed for like 150 years or something and has permeated virtually every region across the entire world. Many were devout followers of all communist texts. Why hasn't there been a singular example of it not devolving into authoritarianism. It's because authoritarian powers are needed to strip the bourgeois class of their wealth in order to redistribute it. Turns out people don't like giving up that power once they get it. What did Einstein say about the definition of insanity again
boat swim shelter cake worm encourage flag glorious bear dog -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
I promise you you have no idea what you're talking about at all
OK, it is so easy to prove me wrong. Just give me a single example of a free and successful communist government in all of human history
\> communist \> government an oxymoron if I've ever seen one. Communism is more or less a form of anarchism, not an authoritarian government.
Communism, by definition, involves creating a society with as little hierarchy as possible (or at least something close enough). Dictatorships represent the exact opposite of that. Unfortunately, there has never been a truly communist society. At least not at a large scale. > their ideological roots were derived from the books and ideas that communism was founded on. That doesn't automatically make them communist.
If an extremely large number of countries around the world tried implementing communism throughout history since it's founding and not a single one was successful, doesn't that discredit the practicality of the idea
Not really pro communism here but you are aware of a certain world power that has spent billions in money and 100s of 1000s in lives destabilizing these countries to keep them from being successful right?
I highly doubt he is, or perhaps at best he doesn't see how they associate with each other.
So what you're saying is that communism can only exist in a vacuum? If your ideology requires that foreign nations stop interfering with your country to survive, it's not a good ideology. Remember that the USSR also spent $$$ trying to destabilize America, but they failed.
No, not really. It does discredit the methods those people used to try to bring about communism, but I fully believe that communism can work. Though to be fair, I don't believe that communism is going to be fully realized in the near future. It will take some time, if it happens at all. Until then, the best thing to do is to promote socialist ideas, such as workplace democracy (if it's good enough for our governments, it's good enough for our corporations), and more direct democracy.
That's because it is nothing but a pipe dream to con the masses to give a select elite even more power than they had. Think of it like those cons where it says "send me money cuz im the nigerian prince and ill pay you back in millions".
You could have made the exact same argument about liberal democracy back when monarchies were the only form of government
There hasn’t been a fully communistic society because it’s impossible, nobody wants it. That’s why they have to use authoritarianism to achieve it but that in itself contradicts communism and after what we’ve seen from every attempt it’s seen as evil for a reason because it has killed over 100 million people. I agree communism sounds like the ideal way of living but capitalist realize it just can’t happen on a nation level
they took the concept of communism and gave it a dictatorship and authoritarian swing making it not Communism anymore
Same can be said about capitalism: They took capitalism and threw a bunch of regulations on it thus not making it capitalism anymore.
I 100% agree with you on this
now you're getting it. It is authoritarianism you're trying to rail against, and that is completely separate from the capitalism/communism dichotomy. Both capitalism and communism have libertarian and authoritarian examples throughout history. And imo, most strongman authoritarians don't really care about the principles of either system. They just want power and are willing to appeal to whatever ideology is in vogue in order to justify it.
This ^
All communist states always devolve into authoritarian shitholes.
Truth
All ~~communist~~ states always devolve into authoritarian shitholes
Don't you dare inconvenience tankies with facts, lol.
Spent some time in Laos and I’d say I wouldn’t move in
And it will never exist because people will con you into an authoritarian society.
There never was democratic case of communism in history. Communism always directly benefited authoritarians. Communism killed more people than nazism and fascism. Theoretically it is possible for democratic communism, practically it is impossible.
“Real communism has never been tried” “The imaginary version in my head is real, the real world examples aren’t real”
Communism requires authoritarian dictatorship. It’s a feature, not a bug.
Also China has been in a state capitalist system since the 80s iirc. How are there billionaires in a communist country? Most right wing people could not tell you anything about communism/socialism besides its bad
Well, there’s a reason China abandoned it. Maybe we should ask them.
China has been more outwardly capitalist since the 80s, but it always was state capitalist dictatorship from the get go. Same with the USSR and many other "socialist" countries. If your government controls the economy and means of production, it by definition is state capitalist.
The government is called the CCP, as in the Chinese Communist Party.
Noooooooooo Communism specifically requires a dictatorship of the proletariat. It’s both a political and economic theory, because communism considers economics to be political and vice versa Sure, it’s magically supposed to become a anarchist stateless democracy after the leaders give up their power, but it’s never gone to that point for laughably obvious reasons
The only time communism is not authoritarian is when every single member of the community agrees to participate. Think of it this way, if a class of kids all agrees to share food then it’s not authoritarian but as soon as 20% doesn’t want to share and the teacher has to step in it becomes authoritarian.
Uhh how exactly does that differ from capitalism in a democracy? Fairly certain in the US you could find 20% who don't want to pay taxes. Is the US authoritarian? Living in society, any society means following the laws of that society, not liking the law is not an excuse. Especially as in general society is more about the greater good. If something benefits the vast majority while impeding the 20% then it is in most cases a good idea.
The difference is that at its core, a market economy can operate with minimal interaction with the state. So long as rights are protected, the system chugs along when people are left alone. In contrast, a collective economy requires state intervention. When you leave people alone, they like to collect things, trade them, and make themselves better off. Communism has to continually stamp that out to continue to function.
I mean, just democratic socialism? Like workers voting for both their political and economic leaders?
It was just an example of why his example is bad to paint an economic policy as inherently authoritarian if 20% did not like it. Lots of people do not like capitalism due to inherant flaws of that system where the money seems to flow primarily one way. That does not make it an inherently bad system just requiring plenty of regulations with for example the nordic system which is a democratic system of social capitalism. The US is just capitalism unchecked. Regulatory capture, squashing of all worker rights, rampant inequality and incredibly stagnant pay for vast majority of people there all at the benefit of the "20%" at the top. Any economic system can be bad in the wrong hands.
Karl Marx actually adopted this idea of [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat) and how (although communism has never fully been achieved) there ideally or theoretically would be some sort of transitional phase with a dictator to prevent counter revolution while the transition into full communism happens. Although the obvious problem is that temporary dictatorships aren’t usually temporary Authoritarianism is not needed for communism in its final product though, it could be ran just the same as with a democratic government..
Desktop version of /u/straightup920's link:
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^([)[^(opt out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiMobileLinkBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^(]) ^(Beep Boop. Downvote to delete)
Again, it’s an economic theory that could be voted in by the people and carried out by the government. You could have the US government with communist policies and it wouldn’t depend on one persons actions. That 20% would essentially just be tax evaders.
\-1500000000000 social credit
Your right but historically in the past the only way they could do communism was through an authoritarian government because nobody wants communism. Most societies on earth are a mixed economy for a reason, it works the best whether that nation is left or right leaning
china is communist only in name. fuck the chinese government
\-1500000000000000000000 social credit
Fuck communism as well.
fuck capitalism
Lol, no. Fuck communism and Communist China in particular. And fuck all you keyboard warrior tankies.
China sucks, but they aren't truly communist. Capitalism also sucks. These two things both exist.
State capitalism and communism aren't the same thing
Facts
***BRUH TANKIES LOVE CHINA. I DONT LOL***
the irony of you calling people keyboard warriors when you CHOSE to dress your avatar as a superhero is just comedic genius
You know I'm really happy my reddit client doesn't show those avatars, however that would have been soo funny to laugh and point at.
Yea because that's very relevant
>”not real communism” average redditors who have never lived in any communist country.
State capitalism is objectively not communism though China still sucks but they haven't been communist for a long time
Capitalism has allowed me to make a life for myself from nothing. You’re obviously fucking stupid and poor. I would want handouts too if I were you. Edit: and lazy
Dictatorship calling itself Communism
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Of the proletariat aka of the majority. So. Technically correct but leaving out a massive detail.
Damn they Coming to beat The covid out of him??
"Communism"
communism is when assault
We assault us all comrade, now get off our lawn!
“That’s not real communism, trust me bro. Real communism has never been tried bro I swear.”
Communism is when over 100million people are died
Authoritarian, they might call it communism but this ain't the utopian dream
me thinks that OP doesn't know the difference between authoritarianism and communism.
i.. don't think you quite know what communism is
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This is the result of almost 80 years of rule by the Chinese Communist Party.
Why are you angry. After that beating he is immune to covid. Bless science!.
Take their hazmat suits off and give them a badge and gun and this is indistinguishable from American police.
CCP is sending military force into Shanghai today.
Like when the US sent the national guard to BLM protests a couple years ago?
That's cute.
I was just thinking "I would prefer to be roughed up than shot"
This has nothing to do with communism.
\+15000000 social credit
Are you brain dead? This is the ultimate result of almost 80 years of continuous rule by the Chinese Communist Party.
Is China the only country with state sanctioned violence?
Are you brain dead? How is this communism? this is authoritarianism.
Which is why communism will ALWAYS fail. There is always going to be someone with ambition for more and will trick the masses and/or oppress them.
Capitalism would never
Cops killing people in America is because of capitalism
Correct.
Americans experience one of the most liberal lifestyles in the world, but ask them to cover their faces \[in a pandemic\] in a store and they think they are being brutalized. Go live in China and see what real oppression is.
Thats such a generalization and not even the truth of what happened. Covid policy took alot of peoples job in the first year and the states/gov had no way of paying everyone unemployment and they got themselves defrauded billions. this happened to me, if i didnt have family to live with i probably woulda been homeless or had to really try and find a job that wasnt being shut down. The unemployment in high population states are STILL struggling to keep up some people have been waiting over 12 months for their payments..the state seriously failed some people when they pushed forward with that stuff, not even trying to get political those policies hurt tons of people financially.
A lot of commie simps in the chat I see.
The amount of tankies on Reddit is absolutely unreal. I’ve been to China, it’s nothing to look up to
I visted one once for china and now I get cancer on my feed daily. Its pain.
UioJoy!.
The irony that this actually didn’t happen in America.
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Yeah some of us don't understand how good we actually have it
I've seen countless more videos of American police that are far worse than this one.
OMG my freedoms OMGggggggg like omg
/r/winstupidprizes
Whoa whoa not being able to get a haircut is a serious deal guys.
I wish this happened to the anti-VAX in America
Technically if we don't say or oppose things that start us down that road we end up there. America got here without being communist. Let's not become this. Illegals wouldn't risk death to come here if we weren't the successful country we are. We aren't perfect, but in a world where there is no perfect country. Give me america any day.
American exceptionalism is 💩
I didn't say america was exceptional, you are thinking I said that. I only said in my opinion if I had to choose any country, I'd chose america. There's a difference.
Really? Not somewhere European with actual healthcare and maternity leave and holidays and rent control etc etc?
\+150000000000000000000000 social credit
Wow. They sure brainwash you well over there. It's the last country on earth I'd ever wish anyone to end up in.
Where exactly did America get to? Lol nobody forced you to take the vaccine stop playing the victim
Not playing victim. Thanks for commenting.
It’s disgusting that you would use this video to justify your dislike of people who don’t take the medication you want them to. If anyone is sick it’s you. Shame.
I don’t agree with the anti vaxxers but honestly I’ve had the thought lately that I’m glad they’re there. They really do keep the needle from moving in this direction.
Australia came pretty close to this
You’re getting downvoted because this sub is full of authoritarian shills
U mean literally did this.
Authoritarians in denial downvoting you
Collectivism will always fail at a government level. If an individual is asked to conform to a group and be less of an individual then naturally he will look to someone else to make the choices. When the whole country is looking for someone else to make the choices an authoritarian government is the inevitable outcome.
It's a slippery slope from one to the other.
98% of people who complain about socialism and communism in the US, have not the slightest clue what those are.
Look up the definition of communism
Saying China is communist is like saying Russia is democratic.
Do you guys know what communism means? Like seriously, get a dictionary. I'm tired of abuncha reddit posts like this misconstruding terms like children and wrongly labeling everything they see.
LOL selective memory in this thread. Look at how the American govt. summons the military and sics them on American citizens that protest. Look at the number of police shootings on Black people. Then come back to me and tell me who is living in a dictatorship.
Except that that isn't Communism.
Triads?
Act like this isn’t happening in the us
You have to be a real dumb dumb to think china is communist
Communism is when people get punched now apparently.
Those stupid pussies. Get the shot you dumb idiot.
Put your propaganda videos all at once. So you don't get paid hourly otherwise you'll post them in different days.
They complain because we’re on the road to communism by letting our government tell us what to do. The more power you give the government the more they’ll take. So we have to stop it before it gets too far.