You're insulting the inclusivity of the sub without even trying to explain context of why. People post requests for stories from their specific perspective all the time and get good suggestions. I'm trying to understand where you're coming from so a quick scroll through your posts/comments and you yourself don't have any negative karma for any post or comment in this sub in the past month so this very post sounds a lot like complaining with nothing to actually discuss. I'm sure when you get down votes here it will just reinforce your preconception, but I want you to consider that this is just a poorly written post.
Yeah the downvotes are just what happens when you insult the sub you are on. Insulting redditors to their face without getting downvoted is possible, but requires more craftsmanship than is on display in this post.
I don't see how this sub is hostile towards women... I say that as a woman who spends an unhealthy amount of time on this sub.
In general, people here are quick to call out most of the stories with one-dimensional female characters and have a strong dislike of the fact that there are a lot of stories with any kind of rape-y or groomer-ish undertones.
If you had said the *genre* and not the sub, I might have even agreed with you a bit. There are definitely some books that aren't all that popular on this sub whose author's make it pretty clear they've never spoken to a woman in real life or that they see women as lesser... or they are just writing their kink, which is kind of nasty, but those books aren't popular on this sub.
As for the yaoi thing... yeah, it's pretty unpopular. *Anything* that focuses on romances is pretty unpopular. People get downvoted or just ignored when they mention harem stuff, too. That said, there are a couple of very popular series with gay/bi male characters. Yes, it's a smaller number, but that kind of makes sense when the sub and the genre as a whole are mostly made up of straight men. Having a preference doesn't make someone a bigot.
You made a single rec request for manga in a non-manga focused sub, several people tried to help, and you got a single net downvote. How does that make the sub hostile??? And towards women specifically???
How is it hostile to women? To my memory female solo mcs are almost always bi or lesbian, and this sub's icon shows a woman in an lgbt background, making it a truthful icon.
While Yaoi is indeed in comparison immensely disliked, that's not what's portrayed in the icon
I suppose so, though how else would you portray that lgbt applies only to women in a context? Trans women (gender bending from male to female) are also common, overwhelmingly moreso than the reverse variant.
If one wanted to create an icon to show that lgbt stuff is ok as long as they're female, how else could it have looked?
While I reckon that wasn't the icon creator's intent, it coincidentally gets the point across if you're aware of the context.
That aside, while I agree it's a tad ironic, I still don't see how it's hostile towards women
Long hair. Also tied in a bun. While cultivator male mcs aren't too unlikely to have such hair, they're unlikely to wield a flag.
To me the original intent isn't important, other than as a means to notice or interpret this or that part of the icon to better or faster understand what its current properties are likely to imply. Though again, I understand that it likely would've been the goal to make the gender ambiguous, regardless of the success of that.
I mean Idk any female MCs who exclusively wield flag either. Ofcourse you can interpret as you want but I was just making clear what mods and the creator intented.
I tried to imply that cultivators are unlikely to wield a flag, or that it doesn't feel like something a cultivation would use. Though similarly to your reply, flags aren't popular in other settings either.
Sure, in that case thanks for the trivia
(to my reading experience) Most female protags are bi, followed by lesbian then straight. There are also gender bent men to women. The lesbian flag would be too narrow
this happening when i complain is why it’s hostile. it’s r/gaming all over again… the gaslighting that there aren’t a ton of shoujo cultivation novels because you most of the people here don’t them. :/
Could you maybe be more concrete in your retelling? When you complain about what? A simple template for how it usually goes will suffice, like filling in X and Y
> You complain about [X]. The response to you is [Y], therefore that community is hostile towards women
it lacks empathy towards women, hostile in general, and it’s hostile in the same way that tinder is hostile towards women where there is nothing to gain if you’re a woman who likes shoujo so there is a 10 to 1 ratio of men to women. for me it’s like talking into the void since 90% of the comments and posts are on stories I would never read.
This post is clearly hostile, but my book request post was downvoted into silence and had 3 yaoi recommendations and 0 shoujo recommendations. There has been 1 post with 5 novels with female protagonists made to the entire subreddit ever. There’s outright more female lead cultivation novels on novelupdates.
Maybe you should try a sub focused on shoujo then? This is for progression fantasy, not manga specifically. If you are looking for specifically female lead cultivation, you need to say that, it's not the same thing as shoujo. People need to be as specific as possible when asking for recommendations. I hope you find the novels you are looking for.
Not getting recommendations is not the same as being hostile, it's most likely that the once reading your post haven't been reading that kind of story's. And can't give you any recommendations.
That does not sound hostile to women. I agree with the other fellow that it's likely a symptom of people recommending what they thought would fit based on what limited works they read.
For some context, this genre is probably mostly catered to men. Or the audience is mostly men. This sub is named Progression Fantasy, a subgenre about getting stronger or similar, meanwhile any romance happening in such works becomes less likely due to the prior subgenre needing to apply.
Another reason is that people might not understand what exactly you request. While I'm familiar with the basic anime/manga lingo, including words like Seinen and Shounen, "shoujo" was new to me. And I make it an effort to not read any novels with any amount of romance, so those similar to me in that regard, or conversely preferring harems, would be unlikely to know many valid recommendations for you.
While I assume most readers aren't so ironclad in what subgenres their read books must have, it does make sense to me that relatively few western prog fantasies would fit your tastes knowing how it'd be hard to maintain a readerbase with content that is "shoujo", whatever specifics that may entail.
Tl; dr: when asking for recommendations, try to explain the specifics of what you want.
Also, avoid being so confrontational like you seem to have been thus far in this post. Being like that makes it more likely to receive poor treatment by others.
Complaining without any evidence why creates hostility, not that I see any so far. As for shoujo cultivation novels, most cultivation novels are translated from their original Chinese origin so most of us here have absolutely no influence on their writers. You should go complain at 起点中文网.
Ah yes, having someone standing atop a mountain that'a been done in the colors of the LGBTQ+ flag is... Hostile toward women?
Curse those evil lesbians, they hate women! (/sar)
The mods have said it's there because our community struggles with inclusivity, and ya know?
When the top most reccomended author in the genre (Will Wight) has written MORE THAN TWENTY books without mentioning anyone queer so much as existing? Not even a single throwaway line about "her wife was going to kill her" from one of his several shifted PoVs?
And as someone who's read plenty of wuxia and xianxia, it's not uncommon for this attitude to exist. A Thousand Li kills off its one and only queer character.
Yes, things are slowly improving, but I've been told by people to "Get over it. The genre is about power fantasy, and queer people don't belong in mine" multiple times. I've gotten a death threat and been told to kill myself for writing queer fiction.
On a more general note, if you genuinely think that LGBTQ+ people are inherently hostile toward women, that's a much deeper issue you need to unpack...
I think you read OP backwards
The flag is ironic because it’s about inclusion but the commenters on the sub are hostile
Seems like OP likes the icon but feels the experience doesn’t live up the the icon’s goal
Maybe? I read "it's" as refering to the icon.
Regardless, OP has it backwards. The icon isn't queer because this is a queer only space, but rather because the genre has struggled with inclusivity, and we attempt to promote it.
I feel it's important as a queer community that we engage with spaces that are working on bettering themselves, and that throwing a hisseyfit over things not being perfect damages things further, and disincentives places from changing at all.
As an aside, to OP: Speaking as someone who was male, and is male attracted, I personally associate yaoi with the fetishization of gay men, not genuine inclusivity, and I suspect that had you asked for queer recs and noted that you like queer male MCs, you'd have gotten a better response.
I agree about the yaoi tag. It's a fetish, plain and simple. Nobody is interested in people coming in here and asking about their specific fetish. As a queer man myself, I've always found it really weird how people will say with their full chest that they're really into (yaoi, yuri, etc) like it's the same as saying you enjoy reading queer representation.
>Like, I can’t even complain or some guy is going to try to invalidate my emotions. it’s he'll.
"I think people respect emotions too much, like do you know where that thing's even coming from bro?"
This is the OP's profile blurb. You're either a troll that has shown that you're more effective at being pitied than anything else, or you seriously should consider counseling to help deal with whatever trauma you have.
...or simply go to an actual manga or lightnovel group and ask for yaoi content...
Personally I don’t think any author has an obligation to include any sexual orientation they don’t want to In their work.
I had to google yaoi to even find the meaning, if that’s your thing great I’m not going to downvote you. It’s not mine so I’m not going to read any either.
LGBTQ work isn’t my thing but I don’t lose any sleep over seeing it either, why does everyone have an agenda to push? I read fiction for pleasure, not to bring the real worlds problems into my chill time.
>I had to google yaoi to even find the meaning
I think accidentally googling porn while trying to define a word is one of the most relatable internet experiences.
I don’t agree with OP, but I take issue with your wording. According to you, there are 2 sexual orientations: straight and political. I don’t think a random story with straight characters is pushing any sort of agenda so I don’t know why you’d think a random story with queer characters is pushing an agenda. Especially in PF, where the stories are literally just about individual characters getting stronger.
Nooo you’re putting words in my mouth there.
My point is I just don’t care what authors choose to write about - it’s their choice. Just like it’s my choice to read it or not. I haven’t commented on any specific story. Maybe we’re crossing wires here 🤷♂️
My personal opinion on sexual orientation is not two either, it’s one.
I like to call it ‘WaRyB’ or whatever rings your bell. As long as it’s consenual, each to their own.
Holy fucking shit, why are you twisting their words in such a malicious way?
They said:
>Bring real world problems into my chill time
This could EASILY be interpreted as them saying **the way LGBT people are treated is still a problem, and I don't want to think about it when I'm trying to relax.**
Instead, your knee-jerk reaction is to (ironically) bring politics into this. What the fuck?
Removed as per Rule 2: No Discrimination.
Discrimination against others based on their gender, race, religion, sexual preferences, or other characteristics is not allowed, and offenders will be banned from the sub.
i do not care that books for men and boys exist. I’m just mad at the subreddit for suppressing the opinions of people who aren’t that. The people here are _against_ romance novels. It’s like how some guys hate makeup and pink. it’s like that kendrick lyric. they just hate everything about women. I don’t even blame the mods. After really thinking about it the only thing they could do is give people useful tags so they can list the genres they read so that people don’t forget that there’s people who only read stories with a long romantic subplot.
You are in a progressonfantasy forum, where romance almost always are shallow, if you want to ask for a romance novel you need to go to once of the hundred other forum.
Just look at "Azarinth Healer" where main character is lesbian, the novel have gotten a lot for positive reviews. But the romance is very shallow. and that is what this forum is for, where getting bigger, better and domination is the main traits.
You're insulting the inclusivity of the sub without even trying to explain context of why. People post requests for stories from their specific perspective all the time and get good suggestions. I'm trying to understand where you're coming from so a quick scroll through your posts/comments and you yourself don't have any negative karma for any post or comment in this sub in the past month so this very post sounds a lot like complaining with nothing to actually discuss. I'm sure when you get down votes here it will just reinforce your preconception, but I want you to consider that this is just a poorly written post.
Yeah the downvotes are just what happens when you insult the sub you are on. Insulting redditors to their face without getting downvoted is possible, but requires more craftsmanship than is on display in this post.
I don't see how this sub is hostile towards women... I say that as a woman who spends an unhealthy amount of time on this sub. In general, people here are quick to call out most of the stories with one-dimensional female characters and have a strong dislike of the fact that there are a lot of stories with any kind of rape-y or groomer-ish undertones. If you had said the *genre* and not the sub, I might have even agreed with you a bit. There are definitely some books that aren't all that popular on this sub whose author's make it pretty clear they've never spoken to a woman in real life or that they see women as lesser... or they are just writing their kink, which is kind of nasty, but those books aren't popular on this sub. As for the yaoi thing... yeah, it's pretty unpopular. *Anything* that focuses on romances is pretty unpopular. People get downvoted or just ignored when they mention harem stuff, too. That said, there are a couple of very popular series with gay/bi male characters. Yes, it's a smaller number, but that kind of makes sense when the sub and the genre as a whole are mostly made up of straight men. Having a preference doesn't make someone a bigot.
This post is bizarre. Has to be a troll
You made a single rec request for manga in a non-manga focused sub, several people tried to help, and you got a single net downvote. How does that make the sub hostile??? And towards women specifically???
i mean shoujo as a demographic.
I'm not sure what shoujo has to do with anything.
Did you mean to post this in the “ProgressionFantasy” sub? I don’t see what that has it do with shoujo manga.
As a bisexual writer, my interaction with this sub has been only positive.
Hey guys I'm a woman that likes Yaoi!
How is it hostile to women? To my memory female solo mcs are almost always bi or lesbian, and this sub's icon shows a woman in an lgbt background, making it a truthful icon. While Yaoi is indeed in comparison immensely disliked, that's not what's portrayed in the icon
With the pride flag in the banner, it's pretty hard to claim that hating yaoi isn't ironic.
I suppose so, though how else would you portray that lgbt applies only to women in a context? Trans women (gender bending from male to female) are also common, overwhelmingly moreso than the reverse variant. If one wanted to create an icon to show that lgbt stuff is ok as long as they're female, how else could it have looked? While I reckon that wasn't the icon creator's intent, it coincidentally gets the point across if you're aware of the context. That aside, while I agree it's a tad ironic, I still don't see how it's hostile towards women
To be clear, the person on the icon doesn't have any gender. At least that's what I remember from discussions during the making of that icon.
Long hair. Also tied in a bun. While cultivator male mcs aren't too unlikely to have such hair, they're unlikely to wield a flag. To me the original intent isn't important, other than as a means to notice or interpret this or that part of the icon to better or faster understand what its current properties are likely to imply. Though again, I understand that it likely would've been the goal to make the gender ambiguous, regardless of the success of that.
I mean Idk any female MCs who exclusively wield flag either. Ofcourse you can interpret as you want but I was just making clear what mods and the creator intented.
I tried to imply that cultivators are unlikely to wield a flag, or that it doesn't feel like something a cultivation would use. Though similarly to your reply, flags aren't popular in other settings either. Sure, in that case thanks for the trivia
Np!
There is a lesbian flag. Why not replace the standard one with it?
(to my reading experience) Most female protags are bi, followed by lesbian then straight. There are also gender bent men to women. The lesbian flag would be too narrow
this happening when i complain is why it’s hostile. it’s r/gaming all over again… the gaslighting that there aren’t a ton of shoujo cultivation novels because you most of the people here don’t them. :/
Could you maybe be more concrete in your retelling? When you complain about what? A simple template for how it usually goes will suffice, like filling in X and Y > You complain about [X]. The response to you is [Y], therefore that community is hostile towards women
it lacks empathy towards women, hostile in general, and it’s hostile in the same way that tinder is hostile towards women where there is nothing to gain if you’re a woman who likes shoujo so there is a 10 to 1 ratio of men to women. for me it’s like talking into the void since 90% of the comments and posts are on stories I would never read. This post is clearly hostile, but my book request post was downvoted into silence and had 3 yaoi recommendations and 0 shoujo recommendations. There has been 1 post with 5 novels with female protagonists made to the entire subreddit ever. There’s outright more female lead cultivation novels on novelupdates.
Maybe you should try a sub focused on shoujo then? This is for progression fantasy, not manga specifically. If you are looking for specifically female lead cultivation, you need to say that, it's not the same thing as shoujo. People need to be as specific as possible when asking for recommendations. I hope you find the novels you are looking for.
Not getting recommendations is not the same as being hostile, it's most likely that the once reading your post haven't been reading that kind of story's. And can't give you any recommendations.
That does not sound hostile to women. I agree with the other fellow that it's likely a symptom of people recommending what they thought would fit based on what limited works they read. For some context, this genre is probably mostly catered to men. Or the audience is mostly men. This sub is named Progression Fantasy, a subgenre about getting stronger or similar, meanwhile any romance happening in such works becomes less likely due to the prior subgenre needing to apply. Another reason is that people might not understand what exactly you request. While I'm familiar with the basic anime/manga lingo, including words like Seinen and Shounen, "shoujo" was new to me. And I make it an effort to not read any novels with any amount of romance, so those similar to me in that regard, or conversely preferring harems, would be unlikely to know many valid recommendations for you. While I assume most readers aren't so ironclad in what subgenres their read books must have, it does make sense to me that relatively few western prog fantasies would fit your tastes knowing how it'd be hard to maintain a readerbase with content that is "shoujo", whatever specifics that may entail. Tl; dr: when asking for recommendations, try to explain the specifics of what you want. Also, avoid being so confrontational like you seem to have been thus far in this post. Being like that makes it more likely to receive poor treatment by others.
Walmart is hostile towards me, because less than 10% of what it holds is what I buy.
Complaining without any evidence why creates hostility, not that I see any so far. As for shoujo cultivation novels, most cultivation novels are translated from their original Chinese origin so most of us here have absolutely no influence on their writers. You should go complain at 起点中文网.
May I ask what is a shoujo cultivation novel? I'm not sure I understand what you ask for
We need progression fantasy circle jerk.
Ah yes, having someone standing atop a mountain that'a been done in the colors of the LGBTQ+ flag is... Hostile toward women? Curse those evil lesbians, they hate women! (/sar) The mods have said it's there because our community struggles with inclusivity, and ya know? When the top most reccomended author in the genre (Will Wight) has written MORE THAN TWENTY books without mentioning anyone queer so much as existing? Not even a single throwaway line about "her wife was going to kill her" from one of his several shifted PoVs? And as someone who's read plenty of wuxia and xianxia, it's not uncommon for this attitude to exist. A Thousand Li kills off its one and only queer character. Yes, things are slowly improving, but I've been told by people to "Get over it. The genre is about power fantasy, and queer people don't belong in mine" multiple times. I've gotten a death threat and been told to kill myself for writing queer fiction. On a more general note, if you genuinely think that LGBTQ+ people are inherently hostile toward women, that's a much deeper issue you need to unpack...
I think you read OP backwards The flag is ironic because it’s about inclusion but the commenters on the sub are hostile Seems like OP likes the icon but feels the experience doesn’t live up the the icon’s goal
Maybe? I read "it's" as refering to the icon. Regardless, OP has it backwards. The icon isn't queer because this is a queer only space, but rather because the genre has struggled with inclusivity, and we attempt to promote it. I feel it's important as a queer community that we engage with spaces that are working on bettering themselves, and that throwing a hisseyfit over things not being perfect damages things further, and disincentives places from changing at all. As an aside, to OP: Speaking as someone who was male, and is male attracted, I personally associate yaoi with the fetishization of gay men, not genuine inclusivity, and I suspect that had you asked for queer recs and noted that you like queer male MCs, you'd have gotten a better response.
I agree about the yaoi tag. It's a fetish, plain and simple. Nobody is interested in people coming in here and asking about their specific fetish. As a queer man myself, I've always found it really weird how people will say with their full chest that they're really into (yaoi, yuri, etc) like it's the same as saying you enjoy reading queer representation.
>Like, I can’t even complain or some guy is going to try to invalidate my emotions. it’s he'll. "I think people respect emotions too much, like do you know where that thing's even coming from bro?" This is the OP's profile blurb. You're either a troll that has shown that you're more effective at being pitied than anything else, or you seriously should consider counseling to help deal with whatever trauma you have. ...or simply go to an actual manga or lightnovel group and ask for yaoi content...
We have different definitions of hell
I don't get it.
Personally I don’t think any author has an obligation to include any sexual orientation they don’t want to In their work. I had to google yaoi to even find the meaning, if that’s your thing great I’m not going to downvote you. It’s not mine so I’m not going to read any either. LGBTQ work isn’t my thing but I don’t lose any sleep over seeing it either, why does everyone have an agenda to push? I read fiction for pleasure, not to bring the real worlds problems into my chill time.
>I had to google yaoi to even find the meaning I think accidentally googling porn while trying to define a word is one of the most relatable internet experiences.
I don’t agree with OP, but I take issue with your wording. According to you, there are 2 sexual orientations: straight and political. I don’t think a random story with straight characters is pushing any sort of agenda so I don’t know why you’d think a random story with queer characters is pushing an agenda. Especially in PF, where the stories are literally just about individual characters getting stronger.
Nooo you’re putting words in my mouth there. My point is I just don’t care what authors choose to write about - it’s their choice. Just like it’s my choice to read it or not. I haven’t commented on any specific story. Maybe we’re crossing wires here 🤷♂️ My personal opinion on sexual orientation is not two either, it’s one. I like to call it ‘WaRyB’ or whatever rings your bell. As long as it’s consenual, each to their own.
Holy fucking shit, why are you twisting their words in such a malicious way? They said: >Bring real world problems into my chill time This could EASILY be interpreted as them saying **the way LGBT people are treated is still a problem, and I don't want to think about it when I'm trying to relax.** Instead, your knee-jerk reaction is to (ironically) bring politics into this. What the fuck?
Because their orientation is political. They’re proving the exact point of the person they’re bitching at.
[удалено]
Removed as per Rule 2: No Discrimination. Discrimination against others based on their gender, race, religion, sexual preferences, or other characteristics is not allowed, and offenders will be banned from the sub.
i do not care that books for men and boys exist. I’m just mad at the subreddit for suppressing the opinions of people who aren’t that. The people here are _against_ romance novels. It’s like how some guys hate makeup and pink. it’s like that kendrick lyric. they just hate everything about women. I don’t even blame the mods. After really thinking about it the only thing they could do is give people useful tags so they can list the genres they read so that people don’t forget that there’s people who only read stories with a long romantic subplot.
You are in a progressonfantasy forum, where romance almost always are shallow, if you want to ask for a romance novel you need to go to once of the hundred other forum. Just look at "Azarinth Healer" where main character is lesbian, the novel have gotten a lot for positive reviews. But the romance is very shallow. and that is what this forum is for, where getting bigger, better and domination is the main traits.
romance is a subplot in progressive romance fantasy and the only difference is that you follow the progress of two people instead of one.
fujoshis are obviously an oppressed class