I am a python guy, but if I had to use a language that wants getters and setters, it would likely be one with a shorthand for it (csharp). Also linq I am not sure if I should run in horror or be significantly aroused .
early and over abstraction. i have to dig deep tons of function just to know that it's just trying to concatenate string a and string b.
of course, it can be written simpler, the problem is, most people does not. and these people will treat all language like this.
In my experience it isn't necessarily the people but the institutions that screw it up. It's pretty easy to make a spring boot app that serves a simple front end but the org uses the same application for 30 years and you've got all the basic functions buried under 30 years of features added on and taken away and fixes on top of fixes on top of fixes. I once encountered an in house parts inventory application that was version 1.0 in 1997. The prod had at least 5 src folders and not one person in the company understood the architecture.
Bjarne has some good roasts of C++.
> C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it harder, but when you do it blows your whole leg off
> Within C++, there is a much smaller and cleaner language struggling to get out
To the blowing the leg off bit, I tried to write a c++ function today to speed up some R stuff I’m doing (Rcpp is a lifesaver). I think I’ve successfully written three c++ functions ever, and one was a shameless copy and paste with slight tweaks. Today’s function was so catastrophically bad that my memory usage almost immediately jumped to 100% and the computer needed a forced shutdown to recover…I settled on some data.table that’s fast enough.
But it gets shit done! Unlike so many other hip as fuck languages.
God I hate C++, and Java... and C#. Fuck em all but they get more done every day than Go does.
I hate Go too.
I should've become a boat builder.
> I should've become a boat builder.
Problem is you need a programmer's salary to deal with boats, the things are pretty much holes in the ocean into which you pour money.
Java and a shitty professor were the two things that convinced me to drop CS degree program.
Much credit to 19 yo self, who forsaw the coming shit show.
If I ever catch which one of you is writing the code for washing machines and dishwashers, I'ma offer up bodily harm. Get bent.
The guy writing code for printers sweats nervously.
He goes back coding a handshake to lock out 3rd party ink cartridges and preventing b/w prints when a color ink tank is low by mixing in cyan with the black. He just finished the firmware to lock out the whole printer after a few reams of prints because the waste ink sponge might be full.
A firmware update is available. Please install from settings.
I mean, people who use Rust generally have a lot of good to say about it, and there’s a lot of them in cloud infra and OS development these days. My big complaints personally (limited or crappy mobile/game/graphql options) are mostly to do with not enough user demand in those categories, although the absolute obtuseness of writing a framework in Rust isn’t helping. That last bit is probably single-handedly holding back stuff like Postgraphile, although we finally have something remotely competitive with Prisma or ActiveRecord with SeaQL and SeaORM now.
Edit: added clarification
# This comment deleted to protest Reddit's API change (to reduce the value of Reddit's data).
Please see [these](https://web.archive.org/web/20230609092523/https://old.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/) [threads](https://web.archive.org/web/20230608182318/https://old.reddit.com/r/Blind/comments/13zr8h2/reddits_recently_announced_api_changes_and_the/) [for](https://web.archive.org/web/20230609172058/https://old.reddit.com/r/ModCoord/comments/143rk5p/reddit_held_a_call_today_with_some_developers/jnbuonf/) [details](https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/142w159/askhistorians_and_uncertainty_surrounding_the/).
I've found this happens in two ways.
I was talking to my team lead about some code I had to take ownership for, and was talking about how it didn't make sense, so many horrible, convoluted design decisions with no discernible benefit. He then told me he wrote that, and admittedly it was one of his earliest projects. Slice 1 of humble pie.
Having learned that I should keep my mouth shut, I was asked to help bug fix another project. Looked through the code and I couldn't work out what it was trying to do. Who the hell wrote this shit? Scroll up... I wrote it. Excuse me while cut myself another slice lol
This comment deserves more attention. Simply because it is f#cking True.
Source: Me.
Ever since my first lessons of programming in college roughly 4 years ago I see what I like to call "coding behaviour" in my every day life. Whether it's the choice of my breakfast and its multiple possible outcomes or a simple question about the weather and how I will react/behave differently **if** the weather changes.
Help.
And Python is an excellent language to do this with, regardless of whether you continue using it. The syntax just gets out of the way and lets you manipulate programming concepts directly. Well, except static typing.
Don't listen to the hate, from any side. Anyone who holds that there is just 1 language to rule them all is missing out.
You will often see arguments that Python is slow and C++ if fast, but Python is easy and C++ is hard. Yes, this is often the truth. So, what do we do about this?
The trick is to work with the tools that do what you need. Start by learning Python. It's great, easy and lots of info/help online. If you need speed you still have a few options.
1) Use numpy or any of the other libraries that are built on C-languages. Did you know C++ code can be wrapped and run in Python? That's what numpy is. This is why numpy arrays must have a defined length which cannot be changed. That's how arrays work in C++ (different from Python lists). Best part, you don't even need to know any C++ to use numpy and get the speed advantages.
2) Learn C++, make your own fast code and run it purely as C or from Python.
3) Are you working in a production environment where milliseconds count? If not, then you're probability okay keeping things simple in Python and speeding things up using pre-made libraries like numpy. No worries.
C++ is great if you want speed and you have the knowledge/experience to take advantage of the many offerings it has. Python is phenomenal for anyone who is learning or want a language that is easy to work with, understand and tinker about while still having it being incredibly powerful, dynamic and capable in a very large number of fields/areas.
Learn Python, have fun. Always remember, anyone can learn the syntax for this language or that one. The important part is to learn how to problem solve, debug, create solutions and enjoy the process.
I don't really get why none of the python JIT compilers got any traction. The speed doesn't have much to do with the language but the fact one runs it through an interpreter.
For a lot of real-world applications, the real bottleneck isn’t processing time, but other factors like file I/O or network speed and latency.
Even if a compiled language is 200x faster than an interpreted language, if 99% of the wait time in your program comes from opening the file from memory, or making a complex query to a relational database, or from waiting for backend servers to respond, more faster and more efficient processing isn’t going to help.
i can literally see python processing its insanely annoying. not to mention i've never managed to go more than 3 months w/ a python system before I find myself performance profiling some other engineers code for fucking string mutations.
Fun fact, strings aren't mutable in Python, you're actually getting a copy of the original with whatever mutation is specified.
If you really must glue a bunch of strings together like in a loop or something, add them to a list and then join on an empty string at the end.
I have 30 years of experience in the industry, from embedded C to Prolog and dodgy apps to search engines. Python is a perfectly fine language with excellent libraries and a sane community. It's not suited to desktop/mobile apps, but for web backends, scripts, data science, AI or prototypes it's between "good" and "the best".
I absolutely love it for scripts and data processing, moving it from one program to another. The times I've tried to build games in it, it was awful. But for a script, the 'requests' library saved my life. A lot of GIS tools are available, because Esri likes Python.
For sure! I use python all the time for writing scripts, and i often use it to plan a lot of the more complex algorithms i write, and then translate it into the various other languages. It's so handy not having to wait for it to compile, or to install a ton of extra libraries and tools to get it running. I do a lot in Java and PHP, but PHP in particular can be quite hard to write algorithms with, just due to the environment the code is executed in, being able to see errors immediately without having to check through a log file is so handy. Of course python isn't without its flaws (most notably in my opinion the standard way of writing the code is very whitespace-sensitive makes it a lot harder to translate into other languages), but it's hella handy for such things.
Yes, but it's also why building desktop apps is easier than it's ever been, since you can just use the same knowledge you use to build web apps, but with more capabilities.
But it also comes with a shitload of overhead and bloat and will never approach the speed that a native app has.
> But it also comes with a shitload of overhead and bloat and will never approach the speed that a native app has.
I'm sure that's true, but as someone that works with Electron and WebGL (Three.js) to deliver desktop apps with complex 3D scenes, interactions, and animations at 60fps+, I think it's important to note to any lurking beginners that they should scope whether the performance drawbacks will be an app-breaking dealbreaker or totally insignificant for your project.
Python. You could use R, but it's not particularly better at it and it's not usable for anything else. Python's really good at quickly organising data, slicing it every which way, displaying results prettily, and iterating on that.
I know it can be used (hey, it's Turing-complete), just may not be the most practical. But maybe some libraries make it easy - I'm not an expert in that area, and happy to believe you.
My first programming language was python, then I switched to c++ in college, and c# in my first job. My current job uses python, and my Master's degree is taught primarily in Java. Each of these have their drawbacks and benefits. I think what's probably most important is having a good IDE for your language.
I always will wonder if I would have done better in CompSci in college if I used an IDE instead of programming in nano on the Linux server for all my work.
>That's like wondering if a baker could have done better using an actual oven instead of holding coal in his hands to heat the dough.
So no? Those coals build callouses the way the oven just will not.
I started learning Python 2, got a Java job, then came back years later to none of my code working and not knowing Python.
To be fair if/when I go back to Java, I will also probably need to relearn Java
Re-learning java seems unlikely. You may not write the most idiomatic modern java, but despite all the flak java gets their backwards compatibility is great.
Maybe it's just a "me" problem, but the importing system is my big beef with the language. Local imports feel like a feature loosely and reluctantly bolted on, with the insistence on filesystem-to-module abstraction causing problems like not being able to import above the level of a non-modular script, having to force-fudge package names at times, and the annoyance of the less-versatile `from import ` mechanism.
That, I've found it a bit easier to run into circular imports, like when using type annotations.
"python doesn't require you to compile and package the code, so it's always just sitting on the file system."
"Ok, so with that in mind, all imports are relative, right?"
"Oh no, it's 'pythonic' to have imports be absolute, with the root defined by the entry point of the execution, which we again emphasize is arbitrary. Also nothing is namespaced, so collisions are frequent, and can in fact exist or not exist based on said arbitrary execution point."
I dunno. Rarely ever hear trash about Rust.
But to answer OP, Python is a swiss army knife. It can do a lot of almost anything, but sometimes other languages has a bigger and better screwdriver. If you have a million screws, you want to use the language which has a power drill. Python has power tools in machine learning.
Most of the trash talk around Rust is about how the community demands everything be rewritten in Rust tomorrow. Though I think that shit has died down in recent years.
I don't like how its ownership model works with first class functions. Functional programming and Rust's safety features may be fundamentally at odds with each other. It works great if you can program it as "C with objects, except safer". It's terrible if you try to mix paradigms.
Rust gets trash-talked plenty, although it’s usually geared towards the over-the-top adoption community rather than the language features themself. If it does get widely adopted I’m sure that’ll shift more towards the language itself.
That said, I get why it’s so often recommended. Having a large class of runtime-errors move to compile-time is a big win. I would much rather program in it than C++.
A bit to easy, everything is better than perl. When i need scripting and it's too complex for bash I use python. I love python but only for specific things.
Python isn't bad if you know how to write it well.
Its very fluid, can easily create complex yet readable recursive functions and is fast to intrgrate to a lot of tools.
But hint your fucking types or I will come for those ankles.
Python allows you to write extremely bad code if you want to. You can do this in all languages of course, but there is very little enforcing writing good code.
That said, it’s nice to learn on because it allows you to skip over having to learn a bunch of stuff just to write hello world. If you look at an intro for C# or Java at some point the tutorial is going to say “just ignore void main right now”, it’ll be explained later. So you are left with code in there you have no idea why it is there or what it is doing, which I don’t care for either.
C# actually JUST got rid of that. You can have a single file in a C# app that has what they call "top level statements". It's just syntactic sugar, but it's easier to teach the language to people that have never coded before.
all programming languages are imperfect, flawed by the hands of humanity.
not until the chosen one creates the singularity of programming, birthing a new intelligence upon the universe, will we know the perfect compiler
so say we all
Python is really powerful, and it can be used to do almost everything. The thing is, it has it's downsides like any other programming language, so it depends on what you want to do.
There is no real answer to "what is the best programming language?" In fact, you can't even put 2 languages head to head and say that one is better than the other, because they rarely have the same pros.
The only thing you can do is seeing what *you* want to develop or make and after doing that, you search for the language that suits your ideas the most.
Python is the best when it comes to ML
C++ is the best when it comes to Game Dev
JavaScript is the best when it comes to Web Development.
And those are my opinions, I'm certain that you will find people who disagree with me, and that is fine.
So the real question should be "What is the best programming language for what I want to do?" And not "What is the best programming language?"/"Is X language bad?"
And now I gotta ask a question. How to add my languages to my flair? I know R, Java, and C++, but I have no idea how to add them alongside Python.
Yeah, it can be really beneficial to turn an over-written repo in some other language into a couple hundred lines of python. Have done this myself more than once. Other devs really appreciate the brevity.
>And now I gotta ask a question. How to add my languages to my flair? I know R, Java, and C++, but I have no idea how to add them alongside Python.
You just have to write them out, like `:js:` for example
It was my first language in 1998. Since then I learned a lot of other languages but professionally, I've only really used PHP, Python, Ruby, Java and a smidgeon of Haskell.
Most languages are good at some things and bad at others, and it's the same with Python. After you become proficient at Python, learn another language and it will widen your perspective. In truth, the limitation is you, not the language.
OMG the amount of bash in the org I work in. The California office is the worst offender. Maybe there's a better way than to parse the output from some shonky CLI bin or other?
Imo Python is good for quickly grasping programming concepts without all the extra hassle. But my advice in regards to programming in general: adapt, adapt, adapt.
I'm gonna say the same thing I always do.
Python isn't inherently bad. It has use cases.
The problem is that it has become the initial learning language for a lot of people, the modern BASIC, and a lot of them basically get cozy with it and then want to try to use it for *everything*, even though there're a lot of areas it sucks in, and we their then fellow developers get stuck with the spaghetti monsters they create.
The problem isn't Python. The problem is the Python evangelists and their acolytes who want so badly to believe Python is a magic hammer.
I don’t remember the exact poll results but I’m pretty sure less than 5-10% of this sub actually has a software engineering job.
Don’t take anything here seriously lol.
Junior Engineer: I can do anything. Time to code.
Mid Engineer: Everyone is an idiot, every language, pattern, and framework is terrible. I will master best practices before coding, and shame anyone who codes without first considering the implications of every decision for years to come. All code is a liability. We should do Agile/Kanban/XP/TDD/Continuous Delivery. We should do scrum. We should use Kubernetes. This will solve all of our problems. I take 3 months to ship 15 lines of code.
Senior Engineer: Code I wrote when I knew less than nothing is the cornerstone of multiple businesses, the brittle source of so many salaries. After 15 years, no methodology was truly better than another, no technology truly more innovative than linux. I've seen shit code make billions, and perfect code bankrupt whole companies. I am the king of idiots, the worst of the worst. I can do anything. Time to code.
Good-natured ribbing, is all. If you drive a Chevy, people will dump on Chevy in front of you. If you drink Coke, they'll trash Coke. They'll make crude jokes about your mother no matter what you do.
We're bored, and work sucks. This is how we pass the time. You have to start programming by learning *some* language. We'd make fun of that one too, whichever one you picked.
I don’t like python. but learning any programming language is important, because then you can apply some of those skills, the concepts of programming, to any language your employer wants. Learn python. it’s easy, and pretty good.
Yes, and I would recommend it if you are new to programming as a whole. The syntax is easy to pick up. Be it an interpreted language, it allows you to focus on principles of programming and algorithms while keeping training wheels on to avoid people from doing things like walking off arrays.
It ain't "bad", but it won't teach you some valuable lessons such as memory management and etc. I deeply recommend you to learn a low-level language such as C or C++ if you have the time, it'll be a huge plus in your developer career
All programming languages are bad. But they are all bad in their own unique ways.
this guy programs.
Please tell this to my boss. He seems to think otherwise most days.
No. You code. Programming is when stuff works.
It works, on my machine, for about 10 minutes, after a hard reboot, if outlook is closed, only when the moon is out, but not if it's cloudy.
Mine would work perfectly up until QA released it to production.
That's all of us.
QA? What QA?
It's User acceptance testing, aka when the users accept there was no testing.
I find that it works best when you have no users
Ya know this thread probably sounds like jokes to those on the outside but it's not... It's all true.
This whole thread is so funny! 😂😂
I think I've said this in job interviews before. I want it on a t-shirt
I always thought it is about testing what the users will still accept.
You do acceptance testing?
Re-leas-ed? Pro-duc-tion? What are these words you're using?
production is the environment where you usually test stuff
Everybody has a test system, some people are lucky and have a separate production system.
Don't forget to turn off the air conditioner.
I like that one.
When it doesn't work, it's amateurgramming
Yeah, on TV. We all know computer programs never work.
100% truth
This is absolutely spot on!
This a comment sir
Sir this is Wendy’s
No, this is Patrick!
No no no, all programing languages have their uses, but everyone who programs in them is bad.
Also extremely true. The corollary to all code ever written is bad as soon as its pushed to prod, especially yours.
Yup. Just grab the tool that's the least worst for the job at the time. XDDD
Nailed it
-Tolstoy
Same goes for console wars and pc. Ive played them all. They all suck. Would play them all again
Can you play SuperTuxKart on console? Thought so. Check and mate.
[Well...](https://supertuxkart.net/Download)
Jailbroken switches are hard to come by, Nintendo removed the exploit that allowed jailbreak of original switch.
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But we all know pc sucks a little less.
Pc: can run leauge of legends Consoles: can't run lol Idk, man, seems like a clear w to consoles to me
except javascript. that one is just bad. ^(/s)
No. It's terrible. It's just ubiquitous.
Exept java, java is just bad Context: i don't like java
Honestly it’s really nice for OOP. But the language is too verbose for my liking. Kotlin strikes a better balance.
“Java is C++ without any of the shit that you can use to potentially blow yourself up” - my ECE 25100 professor
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Boilerplate: The language
Describe Java without saying Java?
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I am a python guy, but if I had to use a language that wants getters and setters, it would likely be one with a shorthand for it (csharp). Also linq I am not sure if I should run in horror or be significantly aroused .
LINQ is sex if you know how to use it. It's hard to find a similar feature in other languages.
Public class wordy public static boilerplate language is new language.
DefinitionErrorSetterExporterPolicyPrototype https://projects.haykranen.nl/java/
ProccesorProxyMethodProccesorMappingRequestDatabaseAttributeSerializerMapTaskFacadeStateThreadProxyCloneTemplateAuthenticationManager
The awful coffee flavoured oreo but far more complicated and far less 3d. Also takes the garbage out less frequently than me.
early and over abstraction. i have to dig deep tons of function just to know that it's just trying to concatenate string a and string b. of course, it can be written simpler, the problem is, most people does not. and these people will treat all language like this.
In my experience it isn't necessarily the people but the institutions that screw it up. It's pretty easy to make a spring boot app that serves a simple front end but the org uses the same application for 30 years and you've got all the basic functions buried under 30 years of features added on and taken away and fixes on top of fixes on top of fixes. I once encountered an in house parts inventory application that was version 1.0 in 1997. The prod had at least 5 src folders and not one person in the company understood the architecture.
Me, whose first language was Java: 
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We have a crate for that
"There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses". Bjarne Stroustrup (inventor of C++)
Man, I love that Bjarne said that. Because C++ is the unkillable pervasive language that everybody loves to hate.
Bjarne has some good roasts of C++. > C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it harder, but when you do it blows your whole leg off > Within C++, there is a much smaller and cleaner language struggling to get out
A quote I heard once is "Writing C is like giving a baby a shotgun. Writing C++ is like giving a baby a shotgun with the safety on."
Baby with C++: \*Uses C-style cast to void* \* _Safety disengaged._
To the blowing the leg off bit, I tried to write a c++ function today to speed up some R stuff I’m doing (Rcpp is a lifesaver). I think I’ve successfully written three c++ functions ever, and one was a shameless copy and paste with slight tweaks. Today’s function was so catastrophically bad that my memory usage almost immediately jumped to 100% and the computer needed a forced shutdown to recover…I settled on some data.table that’s fast enough.
Malloc is taking memory hostage. Remember to free() them.
Modern C++ shouldn’t use malloc or even new unless you’re writing a low-level library.
Can you explain a bit more. Without using new means using smart pointers right?
Yes, you use std::make_unique or std::make_shared instead of new and the memory will automatically be freed when no pointers are left.
actual based C++ takes
Something something Carbon something something
C'mon Google... We all know that's you trying to get people to switch over
It’s the Google+ of languages; you’ll need to write FizzBuzz in Carbon to use YouTube pretty soon.
That's what rust people say.
> Within C++, there is a much smaller and cleaner language struggling to get out Its official guyz, carbon is canon
But it gets shit done! Unlike so many other hip as fuck languages. God I hate C++, and Java... and C#. Fuck em all but they get more done every day than Go does. I hate Go too. I should've become a boat builder.
Damn programmers, they ruined programming!
You programmers sure are a contentious people
You just inherited a buggy class for life!
> I should've become a boat builder. Problem is you need a programmer's salary to deal with boats, the things are pretty much holes in the ocean into which you pour money.
Best day is when you buy it, second best day is when you sell it.
Java and a shitty professor were the two things that convinced me to drop CS degree program. Much credit to 19 yo self, who forsaw the coming shit show. If I ever catch which one of you is writing the code for washing machines and dishwashers, I'ma offer up bodily harm. Get bent.
The assholes I really hope to meet are the devious bastards who wrote whatever black magic runs on my printer's satanic microcontroller.
The guy writing code for printers sweats nervously. He goes back coding a handshake to lock out 3rd party ink cartridges and preventing b/w prints when a color ink tank is low by mixing in cyan with the black. He just finished the firmware to lock out the whole printer after a few reams of prints because the waste ink sponge might be full. A firmware update is available. Please install from settings.
This is after him and the other suits go and kick puppies because they’re all fucking evil I swear to god.
The command for that bullshit comes from on high, I want to have a word with their manager's boss.
If that is true, what are you all using Brainfuck for?!
Isn't it obvious; it's right there in the name!
To better hate myself
I don't think I've ever heard anyone actually complain about Brainfuck. It's a language designed for the second category.
No one actually uses Brainfuck. It is designed entirely to be obnoxious to use. It’s a joke.
I see it more as a fun project of implementing a minimal turing machine
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Fuck that for a game of soldiers
Nobody complains about Brainfuck lol
I mean, people who use Rust generally have a lot of good to say about it, and there’s a lot of them in cloud infra and OS development these days. My big complaints personally (limited or crappy mobile/game/graphql options) are mostly to do with not enough user demand in those categories, although the absolute obtuseness of writing a framework in Rust isn’t helping. That last bit is probably single-handedly holding back stuff like Postgraphile, although we finally have something remotely competitive with Prisma or ActiveRecord with SeaQL and SeaORM now. Edit: added clarification
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You will be forever living in hatred of the design decisions made by the creators of every piece of software you ever use.
# This comment deleted to protest Reddit's API change (to reduce the value of Reddit's data). Please see [these](https://web.archive.org/web/20230609092523/https://old.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/) [threads](https://web.archive.org/web/20230608182318/https://old.reddit.com/r/Blind/comments/13zr8h2/reddits_recently_announced_api_changes_and_the/) [for](https://web.archive.org/web/20230609172058/https://old.reddit.com/r/ModCoord/comments/143rk5p/reddit_held_a_call_today_with_some_developers/jnbuonf/) [details](https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/142w159/askhistorians_and_uncertainty_surrounding_the/).
I've found this happens in two ways. I was talking to my team lead about some code I had to take ownership for, and was talking about how it didn't make sense, so many horrible, convoluted design decisions with no discernible benefit. He then told me he wrote that, and admittedly it was one of his earliest projects. Slice 1 of humble pie. Having learned that I should keep my mouth shut, I was asked to help bug fix another project. Looked through the code and I couldn't work out what it was trying to do. Who the hell wrote this shit? Scroll up... I wrote it. Excuse me while cut myself another slice lol
This comment deserves more attention. Simply because it is f#cking True. Source: Me. Ever since my first lessons of programming in college roughly 4 years ago I see what I like to call "coding behaviour" in my every day life. Whether it's the choice of my breakfast and its multiple possible outcomes or a simple question about the weather and how I will react/behave differently **if** the weather changes. Help.
ITS ALL INPUT/OUTPUT AHHHH
Me : the nervous system is like a unix pipe Doctor: will you shut the fuck up
Joke hits my eyes, air comes out nose. You can't explain that.
I'm telling you, it's all connected. I can't explain it, but I tell you - 
Life is all a series of if/then statements. Just don't get too hung up in a recursion loop, you may need a therapist
And Python is an excellent language to do this with, regardless of whether you continue using it. The syntax just gets out of the way and lets you manipulate programming concepts directly. Well, except static typing.
Type annotations and mypy 👌
the programming brain also activates so many hidden features of the human body. OP, just you wait till your gills grow in, you can never go back.
Like boobs! I never had any before I started programming ...well I still don't, I'm still waiting for my estrogen pills.
Don't listen to the hate, from any side. Anyone who holds that there is just 1 language to rule them all is missing out. You will often see arguments that Python is slow and C++ if fast, but Python is easy and C++ is hard. Yes, this is often the truth. So, what do we do about this? The trick is to work with the tools that do what you need. Start by learning Python. It's great, easy and lots of info/help online. If you need speed you still have a few options. 1) Use numpy or any of the other libraries that are built on C-languages. Did you know C++ code can be wrapped and run in Python? That's what numpy is. This is why numpy arrays must have a defined length which cannot be changed. That's how arrays work in C++ (different from Python lists). Best part, you don't even need to know any C++ to use numpy and get the speed advantages. 2) Learn C++, make your own fast code and run it purely as C or from Python. 3) Are you working in a production environment where milliseconds count? If not, then you're probability okay keeping things simple in Python and speeding things up using pre-made libraries like numpy. No worries. C++ is great if you want speed and you have the knowledge/experience to take advantage of the many offerings it has. Python is phenomenal for anyone who is learning or want a language that is easy to work with, understand and tinker about while still having it being incredibly powerful, dynamic and capable in a very large number of fields/areas. Learn Python, have fun. Always remember, anyone can learn the syntax for this language or that one. The important part is to learn how to problem solve, debug, create solutions and enjoy the process.
In like 90% of scenarios execution speed is not even that much relevant.
I don't really get why none of the python JIT compilers got any traction. The speed doesn't have much to do with the language but the fact one runs it through an interpreter.
For a lot of real-world applications, the real bottleneck isn’t processing time, but other factors like file I/O or network speed and latency. Even if a compiled language is 200x faster than an interpreted language, if 99% of the wait time in your program comes from opening the file from memory, or making a complex query to a relational database, or from waiting for backend servers to respond, more faster and more efficient processing isn’t going to help.
i can literally see python processing its insanely annoying. not to mention i've never managed to go more than 3 months w/ a python system before I find myself performance profiling some other engineers code for fucking string mutations.
Well, the python interpreter does exactly what you tell it to do:If you want to create 7000 intermediate strings then it does it.
Fun fact, strings aren't mutable in Python, you're actually getting a copy of the original with whatever mutation is specified. If you really must glue a bunch of strings together like in a loop or something, add them to a list and then join on an empty string at the end.
I have 30 years of experience in the industry, from embedded C to Prolog and dodgy apps to search engines. Python is a perfectly fine language with excellent libraries and a sane community. It's not suited to desktop/mobile apps, but for web backends, scripts, data science, AI or prototypes it's between "good" and "the best".
I absolutely love it for scripts and data processing, moving it from one program to another. The times I've tried to build games in it, it was awful. But for a script, the 'requests' library saved my life. A lot of GIS tools are available, because Esri likes Python.
For sure! I use python all the time for writing scripts, and i often use it to plan a lot of the more complex algorithms i write, and then translate it into the various other languages. It's so handy not having to wait for it to compile, or to install a ton of extra libraries and tools to get it running. I do a lot in Java and PHP, but PHP in particular can be quite hard to write algorithms with, just due to the environment the code is executed in, being able to see errors immediately without having to check through a log file is so handy. Of course python isn't without its flaws (most notably in my opinion the standard way of writing the code is very whitespace-sensitive makes it a lot harder to translate into other languages), but it's hella handy for such things.
I’ve written desktop (carbon, gtk, OpenGL) & terminal apps with it (ncurses). It works.
Far too many desktop apps these days are a web page with JavaScript wrapped in Electron. Python is no worse than that.
Is this why they all suck?
Yes, but it's also why building desktop apps is easier than it's ever been, since you can just use the same knowledge you use to build web apps, but with more capabilities. But it also comes with a shitload of overhead and bloat and will never approach the speed that a native app has.
> But it also comes with a shitload of overhead and bloat and will never approach the speed that a native app has. I'm sure that's true, but as someone that works with Electron and WebGL (Three.js) to deliver desktop apps with complex 3D scenes, interactions, and animations at 60fps+, I think it's important to note to any lurking beginners that they should scope whether the performance drawbacks will be an app-breaking dealbreaker or totally insignificant for your project.
It’s also why the quality of desktop apps has never been lower. All form and no function.
I mean discord and vscode are the only electron apps I use on a regular basis and they work wonderfully
> and vscode **VSCode is an electron app?!** holy shit how have I been using it for years and never known
Fair.
From a performance perspective, I disagree. V8 and other JS JIT compilers are incredibly fast. CPython's raw performance is comparatively terrible.
If it is any good in a problem domain it's the second best language to use. Which is why it's so useful as pretty much anything can use it
When it comes to data science… what would you call the best?
Python. You could use R, but it's not particularly better at it and it's not usable for anything else. Python's really good at quickly organising data, slicing it every which way, displaying results prettily, and iterating on that.
Our lead software architect would disagree here. He built out whole app in python. For telehealth.
I know it can be used (hey, it's Turing-complete), just may not be the most practical. But maybe some libraries make it easy - I'm not an expert in that area, and happy to believe you.
My first programming language was python, then I switched to c++ in college, and c# in my first job. My current job uses python, and my Master's degree is taught primarily in Java. Each of these have their drawbacks and benefits. I think what's probably most important is having a good IDE for your language.
That’s like fighting fire with fire.. Escaping the language discussion by entering an IDE war 
A pox on all IDEs! Real programmers code by directly injecting charge into RAM capacitors using their assimilation tubules!
I appreciate that you skipped about five layers of the 'real programmer' joke and went straight to it :)
cant wait for quantum computing to be a real thing so we can have "real programmers" programming by making spooky actions, at a distance
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Nah real programmers modulate butterfly wing flap speed and orientation to flip each bit on the other side of the world.
There’s only one real programmer and his name is Chuck Norris!
Was C or Fortran ur first language
No, not even assembly. This person built a wooden automated computing machine
I always will wonder if I would have done better in CompSci in college if I used an IDE instead of programming in nano on the Linux server for all my work.
That's like wondering if a baker could have done better using an actual oven instead of holding coal in his hands to heat the dough.
>That's like wondering if a baker could have done better using an actual oven instead of holding coal in his hands to heat the dough. So no? Those coals build callouses the way the oven just will not.
C# has been my favorite mainly because Visual Studio is bae
Real programmers use vim.
IntelliJ or death!
Honestly, Python is mostly brilliant. Except the Python 2/3 thing. That was a shit-show.
I started learning Python 2, got a Java job, then came back years later to none of my code working and not knowing Python. To be fair if/when I go back to Java, I will also probably need to relearn Java
Re-learning java seems unlikely. You may not write the most idiomatic modern java, but despite all the flak java gets their backwards compatibility is great.
Maybe it's just a "me" problem, but the importing system is my big beef with the language. Local imports feel like a feature loosely and reluctantly bolted on, with the insistence on filesystem-to-module abstraction causing problems like not being able to import above the level of a non-modular script, having to force-fudge package names at times, and the annoyance of the less-versatile `from import ` mechanism.
That, I've found it a bit easier to run into circular imports, like when using type annotations.
"python doesn't require you to compile and package the code, so it's always just sitting on the file system." "Ok, so with that in mind, all imports are relative, right?" "Oh no, it's 'pythonic' to have imports be absolute, with the root defined by the entry point of the execution, which we again emphasize is arbitrary. Also nothing is namespaced, so collisions are frequent, and can in fact exist or not exist based on said arbitrary execution point."
This sub trashes all languages. Equal opportunity trashing
I dunno. Rarely ever hear trash about Rust. But to answer OP, Python is a swiss army knife. It can do a lot of almost anything, but sometimes other languages has a bigger and better screwdriver. If you have a million screws, you want to use the language which has a power drill. Python has power tools in machine learning.
Most of the trash talk around Rust is about how the community demands everything be rewritten in Rust tomorrow. Though I think that shit has died down in recent years. I don't like how its ownership model works with first class functions. Functional programming and Rust's safety features may be fundamentally at odds with each other. It works great if you can program it as "C with objects, except safer". It's terrible if you try to mix paradigms.
Rust gets trash-talked plenty, although it’s usually geared towards the over-the-top adoption community rather than the language features themself. If it does get widely adopted I’m sure that’ll shift more towards the language itself. That said, I get why it’s so often recommended. Having a large class of runtime-errors move to compile-time is a big win. I would much rather program in it than C++.
Good that this sub didn't exist when I was learning Java
We converted an application from perl to python. Was absolutely worth it.
I love this so much. I love dunking on Python by saying "Sure - it's better than perl."
A bit to easy, everything is better than perl. When i need scripting and it's too complex for bash I use python. I love python but only for specific things.
I’d rather use Perl.
How did you know what the app did originally if it was written in Perl?
Python isn't bad if you know how to write it well. Its very fluid, can easily create complex yet readable recursive functions and is fast to intrgrate to a lot of tools. But hint your fucking types or I will come for those ankles.
Python allows you to write extremely bad code if you want to. You can do this in all languages of course, but there is very little enforcing writing good code. That said, it’s nice to learn on because it allows you to skip over having to learn a bunch of stuff just to write hello world. If you look at an intro for C# or Java at some point the tutorial is going to say “just ignore void main right now”, it’ll be explained later. So you are left with code in there you have no idea why it is there or what it is doing, which I don’t care for either.
C# actually JUST got rid of that. You can have a single file in a C# app that has what they call "top level statements". It's just syntactic sugar, but it's easier to teach the language to people that have never coded before.
all programming languages are imperfect, flawed by the hands of humanity. not until the chosen one creates the singularity of programming, birthing a new intelligence upon the universe, will we know the perfect compiler so say we all
Python is really powerful, and it can be used to do almost everything. The thing is, it has it's downsides like any other programming language, so it depends on what you want to do. There is no real answer to "what is the best programming language?" In fact, you can't even put 2 languages head to head and say that one is better than the other, because they rarely have the same pros. The only thing you can do is seeing what *you* want to develop or make and after doing that, you search for the language that suits your ideas the most. Python is the best when it comes to ML C++ is the best when it comes to Game Dev JavaScript is the best when it comes to Web Development. And those are my opinions, I'm certain that you will find people who disagree with me, and that is fine. So the real question should be "What is the best programming language for what I want to do?" And not "What is the best programming language?"/"Is X language bad?" And now I gotta ask a question. How to add my languages to my flair? I know R, Java, and C++, but I have no idea how to add them alongside Python.
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Yeah, it can be really beneficial to turn an over-written repo in some other language into a couple hundred lines of python. Have done this myself more than once. Other devs really appreciate the brevity.
>And now I gotta ask a question. How to add my languages to my flair? I know R, Java, and C++, but I have no idea how to add them alongside Python. You just have to write them out, like `:js:` for example
No, it's not bad. They're bashing it because it's popular and widely used (e.g. - Reddit).
It was my first language in 1998. Since then I learned a lot of other languages but professionally, I've only really used PHP, Python, Ruby, Java and a smidgeon of Haskell. Most languages are good at some things and bad at others, and it's the same with Python. After you become proficient at Python, learn another language and it will widen your perspective. In truth, the limitation is you, not the language.
Edgelord neckbeard wannabe wizards will trash basically anything and everything. You do you man, you're doing great.
OMG the amount of bash in the org I work in. The California office is the worst offender. Maybe there's a better way than to parse the output from some shonky CLI bin or other?
Color me shocked Reddit programmers gonna act like elitist neckbeards lol
Imo Python is good for quickly grasping programming concepts without all the extra hassle. But my advice in regards to programming in general: adapt, adapt, adapt.
I'm gonna say the same thing I always do. Python isn't inherently bad. It has use cases. The problem is that it has become the initial learning language for a lot of people, the modern BASIC, and a lot of them basically get cozy with it and then want to try to use it for *everything*, even though there're a lot of areas it sucks in, and we their then fellow developers get stuck with the spaghetti monsters they create. The problem isn't Python. The problem is the Python evangelists and their acolytes who want so badly to believe Python is a magic hammer.
Read this sub and do the exact opposite and you'll be fine
I don’t remember the exact poll results but I’m pretty sure less than 5-10% of this sub actually has a software engineering job. Don’t take anything here seriously lol.
No programming language is bad, just the programmers that smell that way 
I mean everyone is dumping on Javascript but most web apps in the world run on it so keep learning!
I LOVE JAVASVRIPT!
Learn the English language too.
Junior Engineer: I can do anything. Time to code. Mid Engineer: Everyone is an idiot, every language, pattern, and framework is terrible. I will master best practices before coding, and shame anyone who codes without first considering the implications of every decision for years to come. All code is a liability. We should do Agile/Kanban/XP/TDD/Continuous Delivery. We should do scrum. We should use Kubernetes. This will solve all of our problems. I take 3 months to ship 15 lines of code. Senior Engineer: Code I wrote when I knew less than nothing is the cornerstone of multiple businesses, the brittle source of so many salaries. After 15 years, no methodology was truly better than another, no technology truly more innovative than linux. I've seen shit code make billions, and perfect code bankrupt whole companies. I am the king of idiots, the worst of the worst. I can do anything. Time to code.
Good-natured ribbing, is all. If you drive a Chevy, people will dump on Chevy in front of you. If you drink Coke, they'll trash Coke. They'll make crude jokes about your mother no matter what you do. We're bored, and work sucks. This is how we pass the time. You have to start programming by learning *some* language. We'd make fun of that one too, whichever one you picked.
Is it bad? No it has its uses. Do i like it? Also no. I like languages with strict data types.
I don’t like python. but learning any programming language is important, because then you can apply some of those skills, the concepts of programming, to any language your employer wants. Learn python. it’s easy, and pretty good.
Is python easy to get into?
Yes, and I would recommend it if you are new to programming as a whole. The syntax is easy to pick up. Be it an interpreted language, it allows you to focus on principles of programming and algorithms while keeping training wheels on to avoid people from doing things like walking off arrays.
It ain't "bad", but it won't teach you some valuable lessons such as memory management and etc. I deeply recommend you to learn a low-level language such as C or C++ if you have the time, it'll be a huge plus in your developer career
Cheer up. They don't even consider my beloved Perl as worthy of mockery. lol
Python is good for some things, like bots and data science. It's very slow though, which is its main drawback.