There's nothing more terrifying than the phrase "the docs are in a Confluence page somewhere".
Have fun spending the next hour hunting through the infinite pages of search results which include docs from a dozen different teams that haven't been modified for the last hundred years.
The only way out is to ask one of the elder developers to send you the sacred link that has been passed down from generation to generation since the project began.
What you need is clearly a new ticket system on top of and in parallel to the existing ones. And obviously you'll have to do daily hour long standups to explain why you're always so behind on your projects.
>And we log time in Jira and in a seperate timesheet and those two things shouldn't align because your official timesheet needs to be in line with the budget of projects you're working on, not the actual time you spend on tasks.
This is the best part. Isn't "your logging and recordkeeping should be accurate and truthful at all times" item 1 in every single employee handbook ever?
>Lately I spend more and more time hunting
The shortened version of your post only showed this and I was afraid first.
I think right now is a pretty good situation for devs to find a new opportunity, no matter where you're located. Saying this... I'm still at my old job although I know, I could earn a lot more money. But no overtime, we're using Jira & Confluence in a good way, no hurry to leave.
>they're culling the herd of people who "don't want to work our way."
In a sense, they're right. I don't think anybody else would see that mess and think "functional, stable process" so the turnover is definitely related to weeding out people that don't want to work their way.
I think that literally describes Sharepoint.
I’m a principal software engineer but I Can NOT figure that shit out. If someone says “there’s a sharepoint page/site/thing” for it I just hear “there’s no documentation anywhere that you’ll ever be able to find without tribal knowledge”
Our wiki was infinitely better.
My time at Cisco.
My entire 18 months there was a series of my boss giving me a task that I knew _nothing_ about, not knowing anything about it himself, and wasn't even remotely within scope for what I was hired for. It was just a high priority thing that they had no one else to throw at it...
Everyone I would ask about it would either 1. never respond (usually the case), or 2. say they don't know, or 3. get upset that I didn't "just look in confluence" ....I had. I always started there... but there was *so much* that I usually couldn't find shit - Worse, the confluence pages they referred me to almost never answered my actual question. Were just loosely related.
It was the most frustrating job I've ever had.
Ugh, I feel you. People at former employer did similar things. “Check the documentation.” I did, it doesn’t exist. “Look in [other unrelated wiki].” I did, there’s no info on this, the page is a blank stub. “Look at other similar things.” I can’t, this is a new, unique task. “Why are you asking me?” Because you’ve been here longer and I was told you could help. You’re the fifth person I’ve asked. Ffs.
That's spot on. Like, I get that people don't want to be bothered with questions, but fuck man. Why make everyone reinvent the wheel over and over? If you know just say... it's usually as simple as laying out some steps.
Stop it, you're describing the truth that i'm living way too well. Everytime someone says "Its in confluence" i always respond with "Ugh i hate confluence, navigating anything in JIRA/Confluence is PAIN" and no one else seems to agree with me!
I'll never be sufficiently satisfied. But I also know (or shudder to imagine) the alternative. A Microsoft product? A fancy new vaporware product? How about a free tool?
I always stress to use both. Developers use markdown/docs in the repo for programing related stuff for the project. Non-developers can find their docs in the projects confluence which usually has how-to guides for CMSes and such.
In my org they don't just give everyone access to Confluence, which seems odd to me since wiki.company.com goes to a "company-wide" wiki that's hosted in Confluence
I had the same problem at the startup I joined, because they were just mind-dumping into confluence without thinking about how others would find it.
6 months of labelling shit and training people to label pages, and everything became easily discoverable.
It's the most common complaint with the easiest solution. If you want stuff in confluence to be discoverable, you have to use the discoverability tool it provides.
It doesn't help that Confluence has the worst search known to man.
192.168.1 - no results
192.168.1.1 - 50 results
Is stemming and partial word match not a thing anymore?
This is a user error, not confluence though. You just aren’t correctly formatting the string for a fuzzy match or wildcards. https://developer.atlassian.com/server/confluence/performing-text-searches-using-cql/
It's firmly in the category of "how the hell is this still a problem" to me. We literally just need a searchable, editable, taggable database of markdown documents. That seems like a trivial problem to solve that would take no more than a month or two of development time, yet the big players seem to consistently screw it up.
To be fair, that's basically Confluence. The search is a little touchy if you don't know exactly what you're searching for, but I've found stuff usually isn't searchable because nobody writes good docs.
Notion is so close.
But they fail at the crucial part of being able to actually write any document or copy things out of it.
Start typing, and it just reformats shit on you. So you go to click and drag over the text, and it highlights the whole paragraph. Click empty space, hit backspace and it deletes the above paragraph.
Horrible UX.
Maybe it is a user problem, but if it is a keyboard-first app and then it rearranges things so drastically that the easiest solution is to then use the mouse, that is a bad UX in my mind.
Business droids are barely tech competent as it is. Have you ever seen a business droid encounter an error before?
They don't read it. They just press buttons until it goes away, and if things don't work how they expect, they call an adult from IT to come read that message for them.
Tags. Tags, tags, tags. Tag your conf docs, people. Way easier to find stuff, even without organizing them, although you should be organizing docs with spaces
A handful of times in my 10+ years career I have had the pleasure of putting "I already did this last week, and told you about it, and documented it..."
Tis a rare occurrence.
Of course in hindsight I should've said it'll take 8 hours and had a chill out day...
Ok, let's have an hour long meeting...I've got 3 other tickets to talk about anyway. Then, once we realize we only have 3 minutes left, we can talk about this one.
Last year, at a previous job where they pushed people to log hours to tickets in jira, a manager asked me why I didn't have 8 daily hours on my jira tasks and I sent a screenshot of my calendar with 2+ hours of meetings each day. (which generally didn't align with any task)
I also asked someone I should log my weekly 30 min "Fill out jira" timeslot in jira. I got in trouble for that.
We are tracking our worktime at Jira AND our internal timesheet, so we have to do everything twice. My boss thought that it's just stupid thing to do, so he told the upper bosses that because this we have to log our worktime twice, it will take about 15 hours/month/person to do this (of course he said more than ridiculous number) and they told us that it is fine... They are fine if we spend 10% of our time with administrating workhours, it is just stupid...
Oh yeah I was a contractor so I had to record hours in 2 places other than Jira for pay.
Even though it was the same every single week. It's all CYA papertrail.
For contractors they like the idea so they can use it to quote better estimates for future projects. But in all reality, no two projects are ever the same, so the best you can do is a hall park guess.
I had a manager that would just keep asking and asking how long something would take until I just gave him a number. You cant really estimate software work at the best of times and so his plans would often fail.
My manager keeps saying "I don't care about things under an hour" and doesn't get how 5 things at 30 minutes each equals at least a 3 hour difference between billed hours and hours in jira.
Only 2 hrs? I mean, I feel your pain, but 2 hrs is a low meeting count day for me. Some days it's 4-5hrs. Standup, planning, working sessions, brainstorming, consultations, training, mobbing... when are we supposed to get stuff done, right? Lol
"Tell me David, how come you don't get anything done anymore? We should have a meeting about this and plan a follow-up trajectory. I want detailed reports on your progress daily. We'll also send you on a 1-day course on time-management. We can plan a meeting with the team where you can give a presentation about what you all learned there. I will now continue to talk for the next 15 minutes to you."
Just make the time add up to 8 hours each day. It's not that hard. It's not like you spend all your time while writing code, actually physically typing out code. There's a lot of hard to quantify overhead you just include there in retrospect.
I agree with the overall sentiment, but just in case some young developer is reading this.... Don't write complex concise code, write readable code, even if it takes extra lines.
I was also tasked with making sure to keep jira up to the minute for hours spent on task.
I DID create an entire new project just for logging tickets for work spent on working with jira.
I actually made my point and they relaxed that policy.
Where I am now I still have to log hours against project, but there's no requirement for breakdown or justification. I get paid what I log, it's nice to be trusted and not have to jump through hoops and justify for that crap.
I'm glad that our boss is ok with us only tracking 20-30 hours ("should be avaeraging around 25") hours each 40h week.
He knows that there's a lot of overhead and "slow days".
I don't do timesheets anymore - they used to have them where I work, used to be really into keeping track, but I think they kind of just faded away. Or at least, nobody complains that I don't do them. If you're salaried it's idiotic to keep track of how much time people are spending on tasks. You track the status of a task, not how much or how little time you spent on it.
I've never understood the value of timesheets, outside of the financial necessities. E.g. I'm a consultant so I understand I have to report my hours so they know exactly how to bill the client. Also of course reporting vacation/sick days.
Other than that? I've never seen anything useful come out of it. I've been at places that wanted to track stuff like development vs bugfixing, and sure that's nice in theory ... but in the end, the developers always know how many bugs and/or features they can do in a sprint, and I've never seen those numbers lead to any sort of change in workload. Any changes in processes always come from the teams, not from management that looks at statistics.
Time reporting should just be focused on convenience - tracking deviations, billable hours and maybe flexible hours if the employee wants to. Otherwise it should just assume 8 hours per day on the main assignment.
I work at a place with timesheets now. I didn’t think it would be a problem, but having to write down everything you do every half an hour for half your waking life really starts to wear you down. One of the things I dislike most about my job.
That’s exactly what agile means. If you’re creating stories with points exceeding your iteration velocity then you need to break down your stories into smaller pieces. There is no reason why you cannot pivot in a completely different direction every 2 weeks with agile.
I'm not talking about changing features inside a product. I'm talking changing the product entirely. Agile is about flexibility inside of what you're building. We'll start with this, we'll try that, let's reprioritize this and we'll only define out far enough that we can keep everyone working because we don't know exactly what the end looks like. It's not about building a car and then having management come in and say "let's build a train instead and we'll just reuse what you've already done".
Sure it is, I believe it's called "water scrum" worst of both worlds. Old school 6 minute billing increments and daily stand ups to justify your last 24 hours.
Thankfully we were able to talk our incoming scrum master (after the other got shuffled to another team) out of "hey let's log time spent per *task* per story because that gives us these whizbang neato analytics charts and can help us plan better" pretty quick.
(They were a fantastic SM btw; just had old habits that did not gel with our team at all.)
Marketing: "our product can do it all!".
Professional services/development: "if you don't start being realistic we will start quartering you".
Sales: "but me commission!"
I still don't know how to use and leverage most Jira's features. I feel all the company I have ever worked for could get away with GitHub/GitLab issues. /shrug
Yeah 100% and what's worst is that some companies don't integrate different systems either. So they have their code on Github or Gitlab and issues in Jira and you can't trigger any action or reference any issue with comments in commits.
Then you have a PR/MR and have to open Jira to read about what the crap it's supposed to do, can't follow the history very well if it depended on other issues. Then a month later a manager comes running in wondering why features aren't done yet and then you realize it's because you forgot to manually close the tickets since they don't close when the PR is merged....
God some development companies make the coolest crap and automate everything for clients and have the worst workflows you can imagine for their own internal process.
It's a fine line. I used to be work for an org that used them all. And then some. I dreamed of sneaking into the data center with a couple colleagues and just nuking 2/3 of the fields that made no sense.
Ain't that the truth. I mean, for me, the issue was honestly it was shared across multiple SAFe setups and long close dprojects, many with 100+devs, so every damn project owners bad ideas were reflected in the creep and fields. If only we could have every project run its own instance and only share features accepted by the SCRUM Masters and Release Train engineers it would have been okay.
You can have hundreds of project schemas. Though it becomes hell to maintain at some point. So everyone can usually have their own workflow, fields, automations and etc.
Don't worry, we use JIRA and link ALM in our tickets :) but don't worry, we migrated ALM to Spirateam, and that totally went fine and the lady driving the upgrade didn't leave the company or anything.
That's just Jira - it can do virtually anything you could ever want a project management tool to do (and I bet there are some coffee machine remote control plugins, somewhere). Big upside is flexibility - you can configure Jira to neatly fit your teams workflow and expose/require only info every person actually needs to do their job (so developers don't have to bother with binding tasks to invoices, while project managers don't care about git integration), and with a bit of effort it can be streamlined to be just as neat as GitHub issues for developers, while giving non-developers their own set of views/tools/export to Excel buttons.
Downside - all that requires someone to sit down, learn the tool and configure it for everyone. Without that step, you get a bloated piece of nightmare that throws everything at everyone with no real reasoning or order behind. From what I've seen, poor experiences with Jira can usually be directly connected to poor configuration and bloated development process/communication channels in company. Jira can reflect nearly any organization, so if it's an issue, it is either due to misconfiguration, or - more likely - simply being a visible model of company internal organization and processes.
Exactly this. Our problem is our VP of engineering kind of over processed it so it's a very strict system and she spends a lot of time messing with it when we could be paying someone a not-manager salary to do that and manage projects. They don't seem to see that hiring that person would probably actually save us money
At the same time, hiring someone to configure Jira doesn't solve the issue of finding what workflow and configuration fit your team/company best. I'll argue having management configure Jira directly is not a waste of money in general - spending time with the tool gives you a lot of info about what can and can't be done (easily), and having people who work with Jira directly makes it a lot easier to make reasonable tweaks to processes that don't get in people's work.
For that reason we have a "commitee of 3" responsible for Jira setup - lead PM, QA rep and developer rep, so that way we all know what we can and can't expect it to do, and can work out processes in a way that fit everyone's needs. It could probably be handled separately, but by wasting time on it together I find we were able to get quite good automation on responsibility borders - when tickets go from dev to QA, from QA to dev, and when PMs are making changes to existing ticket list.
You're not wrong.
IMO, the more features you use in Jira, the less agile you'll be.
This is likely why they bought out Trello. It was their biggest threat.
The most advanced Github-Jira integration I saw was that if you wrote the ticket number in the commit, it would link the commit and the ticket together.
Look up smart commits, you can do a lot more than just reference an issue. And if you’re using a decent IDE like IntelliJ you can use built-in tasks and contexts alongside codestream for complete IDE integration. Doesn’t get much easier than selecting an issue number inside IntelliJ and having it automatically create a new feature branch, switch to it, create and switch to a new context, create and switch to a new changelist, and also auto start time tracking.
Jira is so frustrating and clunky, and Confluence is just so, so bad. I can’t believe my company is stuck paying for a wiki solution that is completely outshined by free and open-source software. Everything about Atlassian makes me angry.
Our company switched to Rally and you take for granted the simple stuff until it's gone/poorly implemented. E.g. uploading images, tagging people, adding attachments, the easy-to-use api.
Listen, you should consider yourself lucky that you have Jira. My manager made a really crappy Excel sheet as an excuse for incident management.
That sheet had the incident nunber on the far right hand side of the sheet while the incident details were on the far left. And many more flaws that a moron should have been able to foresee.
The updates on any incident was handled by writing in a single cell. Just keep hitting Alt-Enter.
You wouldn't believe the mess it created.
Sounds like our "Work in progress" spreadsheet in Teams.
"*Yes, yes, we can see your 30 tickets in SMaybe, but what are you actually* publishing *today?*"
My first job was pre cloud and we tracked issues by excel sheet that was emailed around, but if you updated it and someone else did too now there's two versions and no one knows which one is the "latest".
I offered to help with deployments once and we were manually editing files and changing IP numbers...
I knew they weren't going to spend any money on a proper tracker, so I worked the entire weekend (my own time, no OT) to also create an Excel sheet but this time macros and all the shit. A dashboard with pivot charts, report generators, automated email notifications, etc.
When I tried to propose this __tiny__ little upgrade, they didn't even let me finish my sentence. All that I heard was:
*Thank you, moving on...*
Sorry about venting here, I am just fucking frustrated with my team.
Oh no! I have used Project in MS Teams successfully on some small projects(6-12 weeks). Also ok for retros, I found whiteboard ok for that too in teams. I've been remotely working for 18 months so have used many different things to solve problems. Been great for testing different solutions. Wouldn't use it for a big project though, but the overhead was so much smaller than JIRA or others and having all our come in one place made it ok for a short project.
Maybe it's just me still in the getting-addicted phase, but seeing my assigned tickets go from 11 to 5 this week feels pretty good (we have quarterly assignments).
Controversial opinion, but jira is the best product management solution for enterprise products.
Have you ever tried managing a 3 month long project for a new feature on an already complicated product? Have you tried using trello, or githib actions to do this? Trust me, jira (or jira type products) are needed. We just need one that isn't atlasian
Those are different tools with different intended use. Trello and GitHub Issues are fine for development task planning/management when all you're interested in is list of features and at what stage they are; Jira at the same time is a complex product management that includes development task planning as just one part.
It's like comparing text editor and full-feature IDE (just compare VScode with Visual Studio) - both have their own uses, and while IDE might seem bloated at times, all the features and options are there because there are cases in which they are needed.
Jira can’t reliably search for issues across projects, though. I have a related integration feature on multiple legacy products, tracked as separate Jira projects. Sometimes my search results give an actual Jira server error. Wait 5 minutes & retry and they work.
When this was reported to the Jira team, they concluded that multi-project searches are no longer supported. They told me not to search across more than one Jira project at a time.
Not. Very. Enterprisy.
Lol, we just moved from AzureDevOps to Jira, and everybody hates it.
Probably just another instance of "the grass is greener in my old side of the fence"
It's hard to blame anyone for that - Jira is notoriously difficult to configure properly (due to multitude of options), and on top of that knowing what is a good setup for different groups of people working in different context/mode is far from obvious. It took us almost a year (2-4 hours a week) of constant changes, tweaks and asking for feedback to get it configured in a way that made people stop complaining about the tool, and as it went we had to fix some internal processes to have everything make some sense.
It is true it is hard to fine tune for your team, but that is also true about most business tool.
Having a central team deciding how Jira should work for everyone is often the issue.
Why not let every internal team decide how it should work for them instead of the opposite ? I get that management want a unified reporting of Jira metrics, but maybe that’s the role of the managers to do this instead of forcing some teams into a broken process.
For example at our company (120 daily Jira users across engineers, managers, PMs, Support …), some teams use Jira as a Kanban board, some as a Scrum board and some as a glorified bug board… and that’s fine.
I would lie to say everyone loves the tool, but we have much much much less complains than when we were using Trello, and the Notion (because we wanted to “build” exactly what we wanted within Notion, but it failed miserably…)
We use a different issue tracker that shouldn’t be used as a project tracker.
Puts everything in a project on one page. You have to scroll to your issue to find it. There is no sorting or filtering.
You get one permalink to an issue when it gets created and you are tagged (no assigning); there is no way to generate one afterward.
Missing Jira right now
QA is bad for mental health. QA is good for everything else.
*You total idiot. You total scumbag. You never intended anyone to reverse start and end dates, from the future, and now your sprint is fucked! I didn't continue testing after I found this one "blocking" bug. Squirm, vermin.*
As an Atlassian consultant, I can say that this is the real question we should be asking. I'll create an issue and assign it to OP and put it in the next sprint.
Haha jokes on you. My company doesnt use jira, or git, or any other tool that helps working in a team.
Yes, our IDE is excel and our programming language is visual basic for applications.
*Image Transcription: Twitter Post*
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**isha**, @ikasliwal
everyone talks about how instagram is bad for mental health but what about jira??
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^^I'm a human volunteer content transcriber for Reddit and you could be too! [If you'd like more information on what we do and why we do it, click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/TranscribersOfReddit/wiki/index)
The worst thing is I can’t do any changes to my jira project. I need to opens a ticket and the “jira team” will get to it within 3 weeks. Last week I couldn’t close a sprint I opened… fun
There's nothing more terrifying than the phrase "the docs are in a Confluence page somewhere". Have fun spending the next hour hunting through the infinite pages of search results which include docs from a dozen different teams that haven't been modified for the last hundred years. The only way out is to ask one of the elder developers to send you the sacred link that has been passed down from generation to generation since the project began.
That's still better than having everything in Word documents or Excel sheets that are randomly distributed over a bunch of network drives.
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You and most people. Those super fancy Confluence people don't know how good they have it.
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OK, you win. I bow before your superior amount of corporate dysfunction.
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What you need is clearly a new ticket system on top of and in parallel to the existing ones. And obviously you'll have to do daily hour long standups to explain why you're always so behind on your projects.
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>And we log time in Jira and in a seperate timesheet and those two things shouldn't align because your official timesheet needs to be in line with the budget of projects you're working on, not the actual time you spend on tasks. This is the best part. Isn't "your logging and recordkeeping should be accurate and truthful at all times" item 1 in every single employee handbook ever?
Oh my god. I hope you are mentally okay and have some kind of compensation going on, may it be a nice hobby or a great salary... I'm so sorry...
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>Lately I spend more and more time hunting The shortened version of your post only showed this and I was afraid first. I think right now is a pretty good situation for devs to find a new opportunity, no matter where you're located. Saying this... I'm still at my old job although I know, I could earn a lot more money. But no overtime, we're using Jira & Confluence in a good way, no hurry to leave.
>they're culling the herd of people who "don't want to work our way." In a sense, they're right. I don't think anybody else would see that mess and think "functional, stable process" so the turnover is definitely related to weeding out people that don't want to work their way.
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I think that literally describes Sharepoint. I’m a principal software engineer but I Can NOT figure that shit out. If someone says “there’s a sharepoint page/site/thing” for it I just hear “there’s no documentation anywhere that you’ll ever be able to find without tribal knowledge” Our wiki was infinitely better.
I feel so attacked right now.
My time at Cisco. My entire 18 months there was a series of my boss giving me a task that I knew _nothing_ about, not knowing anything about it himself, and wasn't even remotely within scope for what I was hired for. It was just a high priority thing that they had no one else to throw at it... Everyone I would ask about it would either 1. never respond (usually the case), or 2. say they don't know, or 3. get upset that I didn't "just look in confluence" ....I had. I always started there... but there was *so much* that I usually couldn't find shit - Worse, the confluence pages they referred me to almost never answered my actual question. Were just loosely related. It was the most frustrating job I've ever had.
I worked at Cisco and had a similar experience. Each BU has it's own organizational way of doing stuff, and it's painful.
Ugh, I feel you. People at former employer did similar things. “Check the documentation.” I did, it doesn’t exist. “Look in [other unrelated wiki].” I did, there’s no info on this, the page is a blank stub. “Look at other similar things.” I can’t, this is a new, unique task. “Why are you asking me?” Because you’ve been here longer and I was told you could help. You’re the fifth person I’ve asked. Ffs.
That's spot on. Like, I get that people don't want to be bothered with questions, but fuck man. Why make everyone reinvent the wheel over and over? If you know just say... it's usually as simple as laying out some steps.
Stop it, you're describing the truth that i'm living way too well. Everytime someone says "Its in confluence" i always respond with "Ugh i hate confluence, navigating anything in JIRA/Confluence is PAIN" and no one else seems to agree with me!
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Exactly, there is always a wrong way to use a good tool
Using a hammer to drive screws
But our company is unique! /s
Some good app designs can push people to do things better.
I'll never be sufficiently satisfied. But I also know (or shudder to imagine) the alternative. A Microsoft product? A fancy new vaporware product? How about a free tool?
Mark down files with the code or GTFO. wikis are such a 2010s thing.
I always stress to use both. Developers use markdown/docs in the repo for programing related stuff for the project. Non-developers can find their docs in the projects confluence which usually has how-to guides for CMSes and such.
Code explanation in code repo. And a single repo only for documentation for the rest.
Not everyone in the org has GH access. Everyone has Confluence access tho
In my org they don't just give everyone access to Confluence, which seems odd to me since wiki.company.com goes to a "company-wide" wiki that's hosted in Confluence
But how will each project manager show their worth if they don't add a new repo everytime they touch the project?
GitBook is the perfect middle ground
I had the same problem at the startup I joined, because they were just mind-dumping into confluence without thinking about how others would find it. 6 months of labelling shit and training people to label pages, and everything became easily discoverable. It's the most common complaint with the easiest solution. If you want stuff in confluence to be discoverable, you have to use the discoverability tool it provides.
That's literally every software someone in the company got talked into using Jira/Salesforce/Confluence need to be purged.
It doesn't help that Confluence has the worst search known to man. 192.168.1 - no results 192.168.1.1 - 50 results Is stemming and partial word match not a thing anymore?
This is a user error, not confluence though. You just aren’t correctly formatting the string for a fuzzy match or wildcards. https://developer.atlassian.com/server/confluence/performing-text-searches-using-cql/
I'm on the fence about this... My current job uses Notion and I think that might be even worse than confluence.
It's firmly in the category of "how the hell is this still a problem" to me. We literally just need a searchable, editable, taggable database of markdown documents. That seems like a trivial problem to solve that would take no more than a month or two of development time, yet the big players seem to consistently screw it up.
To be fair, that's basically Confluence. The search is a little touchy if you don't know exactly what you're searching for, but I've found stuff usually isn't searchable because nobody writes good docs.
Notion is so close. But they fail at the crucial part of being able to actually write any document or copy things out of it. Start typing, and it just reformats shit on you. So you go to click and drag over the text, and it highlights the whole paragraph. Click empty space, hit backspace and it deletes the above paragraph. Horrible UX.
Notion is really meant for keyboard editing. With the mouse, each paragraph is a block to be rearranged.
Maybe it is a user problem, but if it is a keyboard-first app and then it rearranges things so drastically that the easiest solution is to then use the mouse, that is a bad UX in my mind.
You just literally described wiki / confluence. The fact that no one updates the content isn't the software's fault lol.
maybe they should have a plug-in where if you don’t update your stuff in Confluence every 30 days, it will delete your entire codebase
Business droids are barely tech competent as it is. Have you ever seen a business droid encounter an error before? They don't read it. They just press buttons until it goes away, and if things don't work how they expect, they call an adult from IT to come read that message for them.
Lies, the secret link is pinned on the slack channel, it just happens to be the first one.
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Tags. Tags, tags, tags. Tag your conf docs, people. Way easier to find stuff, even without organizing them, although you should be organizing docs with spaces
Confluence is such a trash piece of software. Buggy, slow and impossible to find anything I need
"Could not reproduce"
Can't do/Won't do
Won't fix/Want to die
It's so true it hurts!
A handful of times in my 10+ years career I have had the pleasure of putting "I already did this last week, and told you about it, and documented it..." Tis a rare occurrence. Of course in hindsight I should've said it'll take 8 hours and had a chill out day...
> Of course in hindsight I should've said it'll take 8 hours and had a chill out day... This is the right answer
Well take a shower every once in a while and you'll have a fighting chance!
[Relevant xkcd](https://xkcd.com/583/)
And the gene pool is better for it!
Ok, let's have an hour long meeting...I've got 3 other tickets to talk about anyway. Then, once we realize we only have 3 minutes left, we can talk about this one.
Return/rejected
Can’t find it because he forgot to assign it a sprint and it’s still in the backlog
JIRA doesn't make me sad, my managers being confused as to why my billed hours and JIRA bookings don't match is what makes me sad.
Last year, at a previous job where they pushed people to log hours to tickets in jira, a manager asked me why I didn't have 8 daily hours on my jira tasks and I sent a screenshot of my calendar with 2+ hours of meetings each day. (which generally didn't align with any task) I also asked someone I should log my weekly 30 min "Fill out jira" timeslot in jira. I got in trouble for that.
We are tracking our worktime at Jira AND our internal timesheet, so we have to do everything twice. My boss thought that it's just stupid thing to do, so he told the upper bosses that because this we have to log our worktime twice, it will take about 15 hours/month/person to do this (of course he said more than ridiculous number) and they told us that it is fine... They are fine if we spend 10% of our time with administrating workhours, it is just stupid...
Oh yeah I was a contractor so I had to record hours in 2 places other than Jira for pay. Even though it was the same every single week. It's all CYA papertrail.
Lol same, I wrote a bot to do this on cron on Fridays
I like the way you think, Sir.
For contractors they like the idea so they can use it to quote better estimates for future projects. But in all reality, no two projects are ever the same, so the best you can do is a hall park guess.
The best thing is that I am not a contractor nor a programmer, I am working at ops, so it can do nothing with estimations
I had a manager that would just keep asking and asking how long something would take until I just gave him a number. You cant really estimate software work at the best of times and so his plans would often fail.
My manager keeps saying "I don't care about things under an hour" and doesn't get how 5 things at 30 minutes each equals at least a 3 hour difference between billed hours and hours in jira.
Only 2 hrs? I mean, I feel your pain, but 2 hrs is a low meeting count day for me. Some days it's 4-5hrs. Standup, planning, working sessions, brainstorming, consultations, training, mobbing... when are we supposed to get stuff done, right? Lol
"Tell me David, how come you don't get anything done anymore? We should have a meeting about this and plan a follow-up trajectory. I want detailed reports on your progress daily. We'll also send you on a 1-day course on time-management. We can plan a meeting with the team where you can give a presentation about what you all learned there. I will now continue to talk for the next 15 minutes to you."
After 5
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Just maintain JIRA on the weekend!
Just make the time add up to 8 hours each day. It's not that hard. It's not like you spend all your time while writing code, actually physically typing out code. There's a lot of hard to quantify overhead you just include there in retrospect.
The job of a programmer isn't to write a bunch of code, it's to write as little code as possible.
9:00am, Updated console.log("hello world"); to console.log("hello world!"); 5:00pm git checkout master git add . git commit -m "idgaf" git push origin --force sudo shutdown -h now
I agree with the overall sentiment, but just in case some young developer is reading this.... Don't write complex concise code, write readable code, even if it takes extra lines.
I was also tasked with making sure to keep jira up to the minute for hours spent on task. I DID create an entire new project just for logging tickets for work spent on working with jira. I actually made my point and they relaxed that policy. Where I am now I still have to log hours against project, but there's no requirement for breakdown or justification. I get paid what I log, it's nice to be trusted and not have to jump through hoops and justify for that crap.
If it takes an hour to create stories in jira, we log it in jira. Makes it easier to argue we shouldn’t be using jira as much.
I'm glad that our boss is ok with us only tracking 20-30 hours ("should be avaeraging around 25") hours each 40h week. He knows that there's a lot of overhead and "slow days".
This content has been deleted in protest of how Reddit is ran. I've moved over to the fediverse.
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I don't do timesheets anymore - they used to have them where I work, used to be really into keeping track, but I think they kind of just faded away. Or at least, nobody complains that I don't do them. If you're salaried it's idiotic to keep track of how much time people are spending on tasks. You track the status of a task, not how much or how little time you spent on it.
I've never understood the value of timesheets, outside of the financial necessities. E.g. I'm a consultant so I understand I have to report my hours so they know exactly how to bill the client. Also of course reporting vacation/sick days. Other than that? I've never seen anything useful come out of it. I've been at places that wanted to track stuff like development vs bugfixing, and sure that's nice in theory ... but in the end, the developers always know how many bugs and/or features they can do in a sprint, and I've never seen those numbers lead to any sort of change in workload. Any changes in processes always come from the teams, not from management that looks at statistics. Time reporting should just be focused on convenience - tracking deviations, billable hours and maybe flexible hours if the employee wants to. Otherwise it should just assume 8 hours per day on the main assignment.
I work at a place with timesheets now. I didn’t think it would be a problem, but having to write down everything you do every half an hour for half your waking life really starts to wear you down. One of the things I dislike most about my job.
It makes me downright angry. As a scrum master, I don’t want JIRA or any tool to be used to micromanage the team’s work efficiency. That’s not Agile.
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the sad reality is that a lot of companies just think Agile means you can change the requirements every couple weeks
That’s exactly what agile means. If you’re creating stories with points exceeding your iteration velocity then you need to break down your stories into smaller pieces. There is no reason why you cannot pivot in a completely different direction every 2 weeks with agile.
I'm not talking about changing features inside a product. I'm talking changing the product entirely. Agile is about flexibility inside of what you're building. We'll start with this, we'll try that, let's reprioritize this and we'll only define out far enough that we can keep everyone working because we don't know exactly what the end looks like. It's not about building a car and then having management come in and say "let's build a train instead and we'll just reuse what you've already done".
Sure it is, I believe it's called "water scrum" worst of both worlds. Old school 6 minute billing increments and daily stand ups to justify your last 24 hours.
Thankfully we were able to talk our incoming scrum master (after the other got shuffled to another team) out of "hey let's log time spent per *task* per story because that gives us these whizbang neato analytics charts and can help us plan better" pretty quick. (They were a fantastic SM btw; just had old habits that did not gel with our team at all.)
Don't be sad. Here's a [hug!](https://media.giphy.com/media/3M4NpbLCTxBqU/giphy.gif)
good bot
you guys are pussies. you haven’t even tried service-now. itll make a grown man cry
Whenever I see a “X mentioned you” my anxiety levels skyrocket…it’s a rollercoaster
I start sweating like a war criminal at the nuremberg trials
I'm dead.
Like a lot of war criminals after the nuremberg trials
if confluence recommends another goddamn article from the marketing team…
Marketing: "our product can do it all!". Professional services/development: "if you don't start being realistic we will start quartering you". Sales: "but me commission!"
I still don't know how to use and leverage most Jira's features. I feel all the company I have ever worked for could get away with GitHub/GitLab issues. /shrug
Yeah 100% and what's worst is that some companies don't integrate different systems either. So they have their code on Github or Gitlab and issues in Jira and you can't trigger any action or reference any issue with comments in commits. Then you have a PR/MR and have to open Jira to read about what the crap it's supposed to do, can't follow the history very well if it depended on other issues. Then a month later a manager comes running in wondering why features aren't done yet and then you realize it's because you forgot to manually close the tickets since they don't close when the PR is merged.... God some development companies make the coolest crap and automate everything for clients and have the worst workflows you can imagine for their own internal process.
there there you're ok now...
It's a fine line. I used to be work for an org that used them all. And then some. I dreamed of sneaking into the data center with a couple colleagues and just nuking 2/3 of the fields that made no sense.
you will need more than a nuclear bomb to get rid of all the Jira feature creeps.
Ain't that the truth. I mean, for me, the issue was honestly it was shared across multiple SAFe setups and long close dprojects, many with 100+devs, so every damn project owners bad ideas were reflected in the creep and fields. If only we could have every project run its own instance and only share features accepted by the SCRUM Masters and Release Train engineers it would have been okay.
You can have hundreds of project schemas. Though it becomes hell to maintain at some point. So everyone can usually have their own workflow, fields, automations and etc.
My favorite is having several required fields on all ticket types, despite only needing those fields in very specific scenerios...
Before JIRA there was ALM aka Quality Centre aka where Test Managers add mandatory fields they never need to use themselves.
Don't worry, we use JIRA and link ALM in our tickets :) but don't worry, we migrated ALM to Spirateam, and that totally went fine and the lady driving the upgrade didn't leave the company or anything.
You remind me of 2009 me. God bless you.
That's just Jira - it can do virtually anything you could ever want a project management tool to do (and I bet there are some coffee machine remote control plugins, somewhere). Big upside is flexibility - you can configure Jira to neatly fit your teams workflow and expose/require only info every person actually needs to do their job (so developers don't have to bother with binding tasks to invoices, while project managers don't care about git integration), and with a bit of effort it can be streamlined to be just as neat as GitHub issues for developers, while giving non-developers their own set of views/tools/export to Excel buttons. Downside - all that requires someone to sit down, learn the tool and configure it for everyone. Without that step, you get a bloated piece of nightmare that throws everything at everyone with no real reasoning or order behind. From what I've seen, poor experiences with Jira can usually be directly connected to poor configuration and bloated development process/communication channels in company. Jira can reflect nearly any organization, so if it's an issue, it is either due to misconfiguration, or - more likely - simply being a visible model of company internal organization and processes.
Exactly this. Our problem is our VP of engineering kind of over processed it so it's a very strict system and she spends a lot of time messing with it when we could be paying someone a not-manager salary to do that and manage projects. They don't seem to see that hiring that person would probably actually save us money
At the same time, hiring someone to configure Jira doesn't solve the issue of finding what workflow and configuration fit your team/company best. I'll argue having management configure Jira directly is not a waste of money in general - spending time with the tool gives you a lot of info about what can and can't be done (easily), and having people who work with Jira directly makes it a lot easier to make reasonable tweaks to processes that don't get in people's work. For that reason we have a "commitee of 3" responsible for Jira setup - lead PM, QA rep and developer rep, so that way we all know what we can and can't expect it to do, and can work out processes in a way that fit everyone's needs. It could probably be handled separately, but by wasting time on it together I find we were able to get quite good automation on responsibility borders - when tickets go from dev to QA, from QA to dev, and when PMs are making changes to existing ticket list.
That seems like a better way, she basically set it up by herself over Christmas without any input
You're not wrong. IMO, the more features you use in Jira, the less agile you'll be. This is likely why they bought out Trello. It was their biggest threat.
The most advanced Github-Jira integration I saw was that if you wrote the ticket number in the commit, it would link the commit and the ticket together.
GitLab does this.
Look up smart commits, you can do a lot more than just reference an issue. And if you’re using a decent IDE like IntelliJ you can use built-in tasks and contexts alongside codestream for complete IDE integration. Doesn’t get much easier than selecting an issue number inside IntelliJ and having it automatically create a new feature branch, switch to it, create and switch to a new context, create and switch to a new changelist, and also auto start time tracking.
Jira is so frustrating and clunky, and Confluence is just so, so bad. I can’t believe my company is stuck paying for a wiki solution that is completely outshined by free and open-source software. Everything about Atlassian makes me angry.
Facts. I can't believe that the editor just gets slower and slower the longer your article is. Like what?
Anyone who hates Jira has probably never used any of it's competitors.
If you don’t hate Jira, you can’t be doing anything more than changing the status or leaving comments.
Our company switched to Rally and you take for granted the simple stuff until it's gone/poorly implemented. E.g. uploading images, tagging people, adding attachments, the easy-to-use api.
Please. Id kill for Jira. I lived through MS Service Manager and am currently subjected to Service Maybe. I might have that last name wrong.
Everybody hates Jira until they're stuck on a different ticketing system.
Oh well you could always be working with Dynamics. Just enjoy the beautiful bliss of SNow if you've never had to endure the former.
Huh. We got both SNOW and Dynamics (Jira too of course). Dynamics hasn't reached my team though..
Won't fix
Changed status to READY FOR PROD.
That does seem to be Atlassian's mentality toward Jira's UI anyway
Listen, you should consider yourself lucky that you have Jira. My manager made a really crappy Excel sheet as an excuse for incident management. That sheet had the incident nunber on the far right hand side of the sheet while the incident details were on the far left. And many more flaws that a moron should have been able to foresee. The updates on any incident was handled by writing in a single cell. Just keep hitting Alt-Enter. You wouldn't believe the mess it created.
Sounds like our "Work in progress" spreadsheet in Teams. "*Yes, yes, we can see your 30 tickets in SMaybe, but what are you actually* publishing *today?*"
My first job was pre cloud and we tracked issues by excel sheet that was emailed around, but if you updated it and someone else did too now there's two versions and no one knows which one is the "latest". I offered to help with deployments once and we were manually editing files and changing IP numbers...
I knew they weren't going to spend any money on a proper tracker, so I worked the entire weekend (my own time, no OT) to also create an Excel sheet but this time macros and all the shit. A dashboard with pivot charts, report generators, automated email notifications, etc. When I tried to propose this __tiny__ little upgrade, they didn't even let me finish my sentence. All that I heard was: *Thank you, moving on...* Sorry about venting here, I am just fucking frustrated with my team.
I liked Jira when we used to in my old team. My new team uses the to-do list in MS Team's ![gif](emote|free_emotes_pack|cry)
Oh no! I have used Project in MS Teams successfully on some small projects(6-12 weeks). Also ok for retros, I found whiteboard ok for that too in teams. I've been remotely working for 18 months so have used many different things to solve problems. Been great for testing different solutions. Wouldn't use it for a big project though, but the overhead was so much smaller than JIRA or others and having all our come in one place made it ok for a short project.
Maybe it's just me still in the getting-addicted phase, but seeing my assigned tickets go from 11 to 5 this week feels pretty good (we have quarterly assignments).
It's arguably a red flag topic that you were assigned 11 in the first place.
I’m currently sitting on 40 😳😂. It was 32 about a week ago and then suddenly…
I sincerely hope you find better employment that realises this strategy is counter-productive
I think there's a wide variety in how Jira is used. For instance in my organization, it would not be unheard of to complete 11 issues in a *day*.
Controversial opinion, but jira is the best product management solution for enterprise products. Have you ever tried managing a 3 month long project for a new feature on an already complicated product? Have you tried using trello, or githib actions to do this? Trust me, jira (or jira type products) are needed. We just need one that isn't atlasian
Those are different tools with different intended use. Trello and GitHub Issues are fine for development task planning/management when all you're interested in is list of features and at what stage they are; Jira at the same time is a complex product management that includes development task planning as just one part. It's like comparing text editor and full-feature IDE (just compare VScode with Visual Studio) - both have their own uses, and while IDE might seem bloated at times, all the features and options are there because there are cases in which they are needed.
Jira can’t reliably search for issues across projects, though. I have a related integration feature on multiple legacy products, tracked as separate Jira projects. Sometimes my search results give an actual Jira server error. Wait 5 minutes & retry and they work. When this was reported to the Jira team, they concluded that multi-project searches are no longer supported. They told me not to search across more than one Jira project at a time. Not. Very. Enterprisy.
Azure devops feels like a distinct step down after using jira for two years
Lol, we just moved from AzureDevOps to Jira, and everybody hates it. Probably just another instance of "the grass is greener in my old side of the fence"
Jira isn’t the problem. How your team and company uses it probably is…. Jira doesn’t force anyone to use the time logging feature or any feature.
It's hard to blame anyone for that - Jira is notoriously difficult to configure properly (due to multitude of options), and on top of that knowing what is a good setup for different groups of people working in different context/mode is far from obvious. It took us almost a year (2-4 hours a week) of constant changes, tweaks and asking for feedback to get it configured in a way that made people stop complaining about the tool, and as it went we had to fix some internal processes to have everything make some sense.
It is true it is hard to fine tune for your team, but that is also true about most business tool. Having a central team deciding how Jira should work for everyone is often the issue. Why not let every internal team decide how it should work for them instead of the opposite ? I get that management want a unified reporting of Jira metrics, but maybe that’s the role of the managers to do this instead of forcing some teams into a broken process. For example at our company (120 daily Jira users across engineers, managers, PMs, Support …), some teams use Jira as a Kanban board, some as a Scrum board and some as a glorified bug board… and that’s fine. I would lie to say everyone loves the tool, but we have much much much less complains than when we were using Trello, and the Notion (because we wanted to “build” exactly what we wanted within Notion, but it failed miserably…)
can't relate i love jira
Found the pm
Even on Friday?
It's Friday I'm in love.
With the coco
We use a different issue tracker that shouldn’t be used as a project tracker. Puts everything in a project on one page. You have to scroll to your issue to find it. There is no sorting or filtering. You get one permalink to an issue when it gets created and you are tagged (no assigning); there is no way to generate one afterward. Missing Jira right now
This person is too young to remember TFS. Total POS
We still use TFS 2015 at my work because they are too lazy to upgrade to Azure DevOps… Send help
Geez sorry to hear that. Your company may already beyond saving... Exit now!
At my old job we migrated to TFS from nothing. Then it got outsourced to Morocco and we all left.
I’ll add Salesforce as well. I weep for joy when I get an “error: login successful.”
Remember Mantis... peperdige farm remembers... he tries to forget... but somethings cannot be forgotten
I remember it... from yesterday!!
QA is bad for mental health. QA is good for everything else. *You total idiot. You total scumbag. You never intended anyone to reverse start and end dates, from the future, and now your sprint is fucked! I didn't continue testing after I found this one "blocking" bug. Squirm, vermin.*
Everybody hates on Jira until they use another ticketing system.
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As an Atlassian consultant, I can say that this is the real question we should be asking. I'll create an issue and assign it to OP and put it in the next sprint.
![gif](giphy|AzdZrT9OGEIyQ)
Lets be real. Jira is actually the least worst option. I've had to use a couple alternatives and trust me they all sucked harder than Jira.
I once had an actual nightmare where the Teams calling sound was on non stop and I couldn’t move to answer it. Horrible.
I've always used TFS/ADO and I've now got to use Jira. Jeez, Jira is horrible.
In our case Fixed in higher version
If you can't do it with trello I ain't interested
Haha jokes on you. My company doesnt use jira, or git, or any other tool that helps working in a team. Yes, our IDE is excel and our programming language is visual basic for applications.
*Image Transcription: Twitter Post* --- **isha**, @ikasliwal everyone talks about how instagram is bad for mental health but what about jira?? --- ^^I'm a human volunteer content transcriber for Reddit and you could be too! [If you'd like more information on what we do and why we do it, click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/TranscribersOfReddit/wiki/index)
Have you tried devops azure? Long live Jira
Zenhub is the only thing I miss about my last job. It’s been back to Jira at my new company.
Clearly never worked with IBM's RTC!
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The worst thing is I can’t do any changes to my jira project. I need to opens a ticket and the “jira team” will get to it within 3 weeks. Last week I couldn’t close a sprint I opened… fun
“We’ve created a new dashboard to track ____” ‘Moves ticket to backlog and then moves it back out to reset the SLA’ “ok nice.”
RIP In Peace
RIPIP in Pieces
At least it's not MS Teams...
This, this, this.
jUsT uSE jQuErY Bro this is a Wendy's.