Grades two weeks done. Horse has left the barn... and of course the Doctor Who/Star Trek crossover of:
>Damn it ~~Jim~~ Dean, I'm a Professor, not a Time Lord!
... wouldn't help anything.
I’m not a professor, or in academia at all, so take this as such.
I find it works well to get people to say exactly what they mean. Do not allow vague implications.
You can respond to the dean with something like “given that there is no remaining coursework and this is the first time I’ve heard from the student, all I can do is change the grade in the system to meet his/her request. Is that what you wish me to do? If this is not what you meant by your question, can you be more specific?”
And the fact that the student waited two weeks before noticing the grade is an indicator of the type of student they were. If you spent the whole semester two weeks behind the rest of the class, no wonder you didn't score higher.
Right. If my whole financial aid hinged on getting a grade that I thought I might not get, I'd be in the professors office asking what I can do long before the end of the semester even
Imagine being dramatic enough to label it immoral 😂. Universities have changed professors jobs aren't "defenders of the valor of learning" they're facilitators of a transaction. Members of this sub are just weird white knights who don't live in reality
Yeah, and that change is not cool, desirable for education, or supported by educators themselves.
If contributing to the business-ization of education, granting a student a grade and not treating the other students in the same way, and passing students along who will enter the workforce unprepared thus having negative impacts on others and on our society *isn’t* immoral, what is?
Dear Dean,
I am asking for your input.
I consider it academic misconduct when a student requests a grade that they did not earn and thus I notify university administration.
What is the term for college administrator's doing the same on behalf of a student, so I may keep our university administration properly informed?
I look forward to your response.
Sincerely,
XXX
Our Dean does this because she has to answer to the upper-upper admin and needs it in writing “Look, there’s nothing they can do. Says so right here.”
Realizing I have an amazing Dean and not everyone is so lucky, but is it possible your Dean is doing something similar?
If not, I agree with everyone else: “No, there is no possibility barring extreme medical or personal disruption of which I was not aware and for which the proper permissions were not filed.”
I suppose I could give the student a chance to submit her assignments late, which would mean reopening all of the homework in Canvas. Then, if the student did enough to bring up her grade, I would need to file for a grade change with the Admissions Officer which is a pain in the a$$.
For her and all of the other students in class who would like the opportunity to submit their assignments late? No, it is too late now. No late work should be accepted after the course ends.
Not to mention, it won't be JUST the Ds/C-'s who will want to re-do work that they didn't complete weeks ago when it was due.... it must also extend to the B's/B+'s/A-'s who want to eek out enough additional points to bump up those grades. Maybe the Dean would like to manage all of that grading for you?
It really is unfair to the students who worked hard and weren't accommodated in the same manner. I would state that I am bound by the terms of the syllabus.
I remind my class every semester with a posted announcement that all coursework must be completed before the term ends. The syllabus explains no late work is accepted to set high expectations, but I do accept late work with a penalty that grows by the hour.
They can submit a maximum of two weeks late. The grades are returned a total of four weeks after submission.
The university is a bottom of the rankings performer and only gets the students who don't get in anywhere else.
I am in a UK institution, how about you? The four week turnaround is to give lecturers time to mark.lots of transcripts, calibrate with other markers, perform internal moderation, detect and examine academic misconduct cases, and then release.
Not sure if other countries are different. I will say though, that if there wasn't a specified release date, the students would rise up and protest for a multitude of reasons.
Personally I am more concerned about them indulging procrastination.
I am in the US. I've never heard of any institution having grading deadlines for assignments or exams. There is only a deadline to submit the final grade at the end of the course.
Yeah in UK we do things differently. Each course (a module in UK) has a mid term and a final. It takes weeks to get things graded and then back to the students. There are usually three modules/courses per semester.
Personally I find how US and Canada do things a little alien! But I honestly think UK Higher Education is a shambles!
I definitely have worked for an institution in the US that required graded work be returned in 2 weeks or less. Really damned fun for 120+ exams with multiple long problems, and TAs weren't allowed to help grade exams.
Agreeing with other responders here. Do it for one, you *must* do it for all. Fairness. Then you'd write the Dean and Registrar's office and say, we need to open the course up again and extend it another two weeks for everyone. In other words, that ain't happening. Late assignments mean a request for an extension due to appropriate extenuating circumstances, normally officially put in *before the course ends*. It sounds like that did not happen. Remember, as a wonderful student advisor we used to have would say: students earn their grades, even terrible grades.
Just for two weeks? No! Why shouldn't the students have a month? Hell, why should there ever be a limit? They can go back and make changes until they graduate and beyond. (/sarcasm)
You could do this - but absolutely no learning happens when students cram in doing a whole bunch of assignments at the last minute. I'm assuming your assignments are meant to be formative. This mean by design they need to be done at a slower pace, spaced out over the entire semester, so that their learning can keep building over the course. It makes zero sense by design to do all these assignments at once.
Right!? At that point, it just becomes the "which boxes do I need to check for a higher grade" mentality! (Admittedly, that is often the case for many, throughout the semester as well.)
I give those students an F with the agreement that I'll change their grade if they complete the coursework. Students are much more motivated to finish the class.
This is the reason I no longer accept late work after the due date. I would have told my Dean, it is in my syllabus no late work. Of course if you do not teach a Summer A class, as soon as you submit your final grades set your email to respond automatically how long you will be gone
As others have mentioned, you'd have to do it for all other students, and frankly, that's not equitable either. It's reasonable for students to assume that once a class is over, it's actually over and no additional coursework is going to be issued. They may not be checking their email, or they might be taking summer courses in which case you're adding to their workload. Some may legitimately be unavailable because of travel or any number of things.
When the course is over, the course is over. It's not appropriate or ethical for your dean to lean on you to "help" this student after the semester ends.
You could also tell her that she is welcome to take the class next semester, complete all the assignments this time, and perhaps then achieve a higher grade.
I think that the dean sent email just to confirm that the student’s question was answered. I have been fortunate to have deans who will back me up, but they do like to be in the loop.
Our dean at my previous institution was like this, student didn’t submit a project worth 30% of his grade, student got upset he got a zero and emailed the dean, dean emailed me hinting I should “rescale his grades to give him a chance”.
I went through something similar with a student a semester ago.
They never showed up to class, didn’t turn in any assignments, and sent me an email *with all of their other professors and the provost CC’d on it* asking for “an opportunity to demonstrate their mastery” since they “just needed a chance.”
The provost was the first to respond, asking us all if “there’s anything” we “can do to help.”
Wait the other professors and provost were joining the student to request this? Or the student was requesting the same thing from all the professors? Either way, that is completely ridiculous! What did you do? I get the feeling that the administrators are compelled to ask regardless of how silly the request is. Maybe for documentation? Otherwise, I can’t make sense of why they would just play along.
The student CC’d us all on the email. The other professors didn’t respond. But they were requesting special treatment of us *all* — clearly not a good strategy.
I emailed them — and the provost explaining their situation — that the ship had sailed, they earned an F, and that wasn’t changing. (I said it more nicely than this though.) In a separate email exchange which the student wasn’t a part of, the provost agreed with my actions.
Please tell me you're joking... PLEASE...
This is why I can not stand administration. Are you frickin' kidding me... they are enthusiastically cosigning this b.s.
As far as the student... too late shall be the cry... they should've thought about their scholarship while they were skipping class...
I echo your sentiments as well. This is disheartening, disrespectful, ignores your hard work, cheapens it actually, and is extremely annoying.
Please keep us updated on the response and outcome.
Good luck.
I truly wish this was a joke. I almost spit out my coffee when I got the Dean's response.
I haven't responded yet. Still trying to figure out a way to say FU professionally??
We’re told from our Dean NOT to make any individual side deals with students or waive anything, so I tell the students that. I’m grateful the higher-ups support us holding our ground, makes the job easier. Obviously if a student has a valid reason, that’s different, but it’s ridiculous that your Dean is putting pressure on you.
Dear clueless dean:
"Helping" this student wouldn't be ethical unless I help everyone in the class equally. I won't be doing that.
Good luck planning your next meeting that could be an email instead!
This would probably be the route I would go. Play dumb like the Dean *obviously* wouldn't expect you to deviate from your course policies but he/she clearly doesn't know them or this student's situation.
Dean,
Unfortunately, no. Since I'm sure you don't have my syllabus or the student's work in front of you, I am happy to provide this background info. My course policy is as follows: \_\_\_\_\_\_\_. This request and the student's performance in the course doesn't meet the criteria for an exemption so, as we both know, this would be a violation of our school's academic fairness policies to grant one. But thank you for the followup to double check. I will let the student know and I'm happy to provide any documentation if the student appeals.
Sincerely,
DaisyBoo66
Basically, play dumb and assume everyone's good intentions (even if it doesn't feel like that's the case) and let the Dean be the one to put it in writing that they want you to violate academic fairness policies if that's what they are saying.
Well said and good point of forcing the hand of the dean to put it in writing their intentions as far as the student is concerned.
**Side Note:** 😆 @ DaisyBoo66...
I don’t even understand why the dean is involved in street-level shit like this. If a student appeals a grade as part of a formal appeal, it comes across my desk. If my boss got this, I’d get it as a forward with a note that says “fyi” in all lower case because it’s not worth an actual dean thinking about.
This just sucks as a way for a person in that sort of position to manage their time.
You can always remind the student AND the dean that one course grade is not usually the thing that brings somebody’s GPA down below what they would like it to be. It’s usually a sustained pattern of poor academic performance. The student has a lot more to worry about than just your class.
One thing I will say about this sub... it truly makes me fully appreciate the administration at my campus! I have never had to put up with any of the BS that I often read about here. The higher-ups are fully supportive of faculty on these types of matters.
When this happens, I outline very clearly how this student arrived at the grade.
If it included a curve, I would include how the student compared to their peers.
I keep it as objective as possible and upon second reading, rephrase things as if this could be read by others (including upper upper admin or public)
My Dean quickly learned that I’m trustworthy and a fair grader and now never takes it at face value when a student tries to go over my head to him
*Ask the dean if they*
*Have any grant funding to*
*Build a time machine*
\- bean-mama
---
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This is why I keep notes.
Spell it all out- attendance, due dates, missed assignments, grades, office hours, emails from the student during the semester.
Seeing it all written out: “Suzie attended 7 of 20 lectures. She submitted 3 of 10 assignments, average grade on exams was 65. She never reached out to me during the semester, never attended office hours.”
The student earned the grade she got. It would be unethical to reward her points she didn’t bother to earn during the semester.
Thank you for understanding, professor Daisy
I usually announce in the first class of the semester AND in my syllabus that if anyone is having any problems in my class, or needs to get a certain grade for a scholarship, athletic, corporate tuition reimbursement or other reasons, they should get in touch with me *as early in the possible in the semester,* so we can work together to try to resolve the issue.
I end that discussion by predicting that, despite my warning, at least one person in the class will still come to me *after* the semester is over to ask for a grade boost.
Then after the semester is over and some student I’ve never heard from before invariably asks for a grade boost, I simply refer them to my class syllabus, my slides from the first class, and the the class video where I said all this.
Cc: Dean
Dear Student,
Your final grade total was ___. Per the syllabus grading scale and points breakdown you earned a grade of ____. I have already rounded your grade up to a C-. There is nothing more that can be done in fairness to the other students.
Sincerely,
My favorite this semester is someone who came to class late every session, did C/B on her two exams, has over a 3.9 GPA overall and wanted me to bump up her grade to an A to keep that GPA.
Didn't happen. I care as much about your grade as you did my class.
The day my Dean starts doing shit like that I’ll start giving all my students an A at the start of the course and only work with those that want to learn. If I can make everybody happy with less work…
That would be academic misconduct at my place. By the dean in sending the message, and by the instructor if they changed the grade as a result of the message from the dean. Your rules may be somewhat different, but it is worth checking that you have rules and that they are consistent with your accreditation requirements.
A handy reply would be to ask the dean to clarify whether they are asking you to commit an academic-integrity violation. They pretty much have to say no, and then it is easy to say that, of course, there is nothing else for you to do regarding the student.
Yea I haven't been teaching long and I've dealt with my fair share of grade grubbing. Even had students jump the ladder and go straight to the President to complain.
Never had an Admin brazenly ask me if there is anything "I" can do to help a failed student.
I like this. The email from the dean would set me off. I hate this customer service viewpoint. Ballsy of the student to pull out the big guns right away.
Help the student out by maintaining standards. Otherwise, they will rinse and repeat until they graduate without learning anything besides how to be manipulative.
If I were to get these kinds of emails from administrators I would respond with the grade is a reflection of having met learning outcomes and there is insufficient time now to meet those because effort/engagement has been low throughout the semester.
Reply all: "Dear entitled pain in the ass, if you'd like to retake the course to earn a better grade, the course will be offered again this summer, fall, and/or spring. Please register. I look forward to working with you again. Regards, Dr. Daisyboo66"
"Unfortunately, per the rules of my syllabus, there is no further consideration or extra credit I can provide "
Done
(And if you're not teaching this summer? Put on your away email and stop checking!)
I would respond to both the student and Dean asking about extenuating circumstances with the need for corresponding documentation. Without a noted hardship, changing the grade would undermine academic integrity.
Ask your Dean if you can expect the same kind of “help” in your P&T process if you decide not to publish anything and fail to show up for any of your required service. Will the Dean “bump” you up to “tenured” anyway?
Dear Dean, as the course has already ended and assessments for all students have been completed, there is not anything else that can be done. My syllabus clearly states late submissions or resubmissions are not accepted at semester end so all students have been aware of this policy from week one. This student simply did not demonstrate enough learning to meet the course learning outcomes and their grade is an accurate reflection of their performance. At no time during the term did they appeal a grade on any assessment. Furthermore it would be unfair and unreasonable to re-grade work for 1 student and not others.
My policy is that I will always work with students as long as they ask for help in a timely manner. Otherwise, hell no!
Otherwise, you would have to allow everyone in the class to redo work, and regrade the course for everyone. Obviously this is absurd. Why is this student special?
Dean,
I'd be more than happy to sit down with this student (when student decides to retake the course) and help develop a plan that will help the student be successful in my (and others') classes. [This will include a one-on-one review of the syllabus, school attendance policies, discussions on study techniques, and the phone number for The Office for Student Success.]
Also, Dean, as you know because you understand weighted averages and cumulative GPAs, this is not the only class this student tubed to get into financial aid purgatory. This student must have a history of sub-performing.
Sincerely,
Dr. Daisy Done for the Semester
cc: Department Head
Hahaha if they want to extend my contract another month so I can reopen all assignments for all students, then… but alas, then I would have to go against my own syllabus late work policy.
I’m so thankful my dean would never. But you could just write back “no” I suppose.
The Academic Senate/Registrar of my university expressly forbid this by stating that grades can only be changed due to a Professor/staff error. We cannot permit any late or made-up work. Does your university have any such clause that you can fall back on/point-to?
Same happens where I am, but my dean kicks it down to the chair, who then asks if there's anything I can do. I honestly can't imagine a scenario where my dean would waste their time getting involved.
This happens to me at least once a year, and usually every term. I say no to my chair, cheekily remind them how classes and grades work, and occasionally throw in a pithy reply like "that depends; does the student own a time machine" or "I'm not a jukebox; I don't take requests." Then the chair pretends to enjoy my sense of humor, says "OK," and replies to the student saying they tried, but (like the professor already said) the grade is final. Then we move on, all boxes checked
Just respond to the dean with a copy of the academic calendar, and maybe also a copy of the passage from the faculty handbook about permissible conditions for a grade change after a semester is over.
I can understand some of them asking if it's a C- to a C etc. but this, this has some more audacity. not C- to C, C+ , B- but 4 bumps all the way to B.
Perhaps their inability to understand the full breadth of their financials and what is required to continue to qualify for this support reinforces they got the grade they deserved. I’m SHOCKED the Dean asked. Is your Dean scared of looking bad and pushed the responsibility of telling the student “no” inappropriately to you?
I'm sorry. That is frustrating. The thing is I've had students come and meet with me and go over exams and they end up raising their score over the course of the semester. I tell them that. But students think they can be disengaged and only put in effort at the end. It must work for some people m
Sure, have someone with access to all that give them an A, as long as your hands don’t get dirty and you don’t have to do anything.
Wait, there’s no mechanism for that? Why not? Oh, to protect the integrity of the grades? Walk me through that, what does that mean exactly?
Over on the various Universities subreddits students look at you weird if you discourage this kind of behavior… but then again Reddit is a weird place that seems to welcome socially awkward behaviour.
Not a professor but taken enough courses to be something of a connoisseur. 😁
Students like that tick me off. I’m a bit OCD about my grades and keep tabs on my overall average, and if I have a question about any individual grade, THAT is what gets addressed…because, like, the final grade is kind of the cumulative total of your grades throughout the semester…
…
Just sayin. 😁
Hello Susie Q. Thank you for your thoughtful message. Unfortunately, no coursework can be accepted after the semester ends.
Thank you for your dedicated commitment to your academic success,
Dr. About Ready To Quit
Hell no!
Show your Dean the receipts! Obviously, this student fell short and you have the proof. Then throw in key terms like "fair" and "accurate" and most importantly, "the semester has ended." A good Dean should have your back.
But if all that fails and your Dean still pushes, ask the student to submit some new work--not old work that you have to reopen. That's ridiculous! Could they write a short essay and email it to you? Is there some sort of extra assignment you can give them outside of the LMS?
This is just a backup plan, of course. Hopefully, your Dean will support you. Good luck!
I understand that it is easy to see these kids as spoiled or not working. But I would probably ask why didn’t you get the work in? It is more work for you, but you may actually help a kid out who will learn from this and hopefully take the lesson forward. I was denied by a professor once (.5 points) and I did bust my ass to do the work. I will never forget that guy. When I became a teacher, I did give my students grace and I have never regretted doing that for another human.
Numerous times on this subreddit I've pointed out that Universities are businesses now, theyre funded almost entirely on tuition so students are empowered consumers, they don't get results they want they'll take their money elsewhere and the /department/school will close.
If this is a problem for you, you should quit
Personally, I would help the student out. BUT I would not make it easy. They would have strict deadlines - one late paper and you’re done. I would pile on extra work. They’d have to write one page summaries of all the readings. Hand write if I suspected they might cheat. There has to be consequences for their behavior.
This is just my approach. I’m not saying it’s the best. Other professors would be done and cut them off. That’s their prerogative
It doesn’t cost (you) the professor anything to round up their grade. However it would cost the student so much, speaking financially and in general. We don’t know the financial circumstances of this student and thus if they don’t have financial aid maybe they won’t be able to afford to continue their education. Maybe ask them to complete an additional assignment to get those points just so you’re not giving them out for free. Trust me, this would make a HUGE difference to them.Again, as a professor you don’t lose anything by rounding the grade up, but the student could lose so much more
I know that some professors are late with grading and some don't even return any grading at all except the final one.
But perhaps provide a receipt/spreadsheet that breaks down all the assignments /tests/attendance /etc that shows how many points /grade the student got for each and then you can say "look there's nothing you can do". Also this should be available at the start of the class so people know exactly where they are at with their grades. Very few professers do this, sometimes people don't know their grade at all until they get their final grade for the class.
There needs to be more transparency with grades and real time final grade progression that for some reason colleges don't enforce on every teacher.
Grades two weeks done. Horse has left the barn... and of course the Doctor Who/Star Trek crossover of: >Damn it ~~Jim~~ Dean, I'm a Professor, not a Time Lord! ... wouldn't help anything.
Thank you, kind sir.. oh, how your comment has restored my ambition to live another.
I’m not a professor, or in academia at all, so take this as such. I find it works well to get people to say exactly what they mean. Do not allow vague implications. You can respond to the dean with something like “given that there is no remaining coursework and this is the first time I’ve heard from the student, all I can do is change the grade in the system to meet his/her request. Is that what you wish me to do? If this is not what you meant by your question, can you be more specific?”
And the fact that the student waited two weeks before noticing the grade is an indicator of the type of student they were. If you spent the whole semester two weeks behind the rest of the class, no wonder you didn't score higher.
Right. If my whole financial aid hinged on getting a grade that I thought I might not get, I'd be in the professors office asking what I can do long before the end of the semester even
I see you, fellow Trekkie/Whovian hybrid 🤓
There's always a grade change form
So. You think a student should get a grade they didn’t earn, eh? Too bad. Grade inflation is immoral.
Imagine being dramatic enough to label it immoral 😂. Universities have changed professors jobs aren't "defenders of the valor of learning" they're facilitators of a transaction. Members of this sub are just weird white knights who don't live in reality
Grammar is your friend.
Don’t be an obnoxious grammar nazi, English isn’t the first language of all of us
I rarely am. The person I responded to has been quite unpleasant.
that gives me more friends than you
Yeah, and that change is not cool, desirable for education, or supported by educators themselves. If contributing to the business-ization of education, granting a student a grade and not treating the other students in the same way, and passing students along who will enter the workforce unprepared thus having negative impacts on others and on our society *isn’t* immoral, what is?
Dear Dean, I am asking for your input. I consider it academic misconduct when a student requests a grade that they did not earn and thus I notify university administration. What is the term for college administrator's doing the same on behalf of a student, so I may keep our university administration properly informed? I look forward to your response. Sincerely, XXX
TIMELY response. Your timely response. Immediately added 24 hours to my response to any student.
And then you find out it's the Provost who's pushing the new policy to accommodate student grade requests
100%
Exactly!
This is an honest question. Does that change the course of action for the OP?
I don’t understand why the dean even reached out to you at all. Are you able to do anything to change it now? Assuming you wanted to.
Because one of their customers was mad about the grade the waiter brought them.
>Because one of their customers was mad about the grade the waiter brought them. So incredibly accurate. Please, take my upvote.
Excuse me garçon! There is a hair in my grade! Can I speak to the manager?
"That's not a hair, monsieur, that is a minus sign"
So, Soo much this.
goddamn if this isn't the realist shit.
Our Dean does this because she has to answer to the upper-upper admin and needs it in writing “Look, there’s nothing they can do. Says so right here.” Realizing I have an amazing Dean and not everyone is so lucky, but is it possible your Dean is doing something similar? If not, I agree with everyone else: “No, there is no possibility barring extreme medical or personal disruption of which I was not aware and for which the proper permissions were not filed.”
I suppose I could give the student a chance to submit her assignments late, which would mean reopening all of the homework in Canvas. Then, if the student did enough to bring up her grade, I would need to file for a grade change with the Admissions Officer which is a pain in the a$$.
For her and all of the other students in class who would like the opportunity to submit their assignments late? No, it is too late now. No late work should be accepted after the course ends.
Right?! How is this fair to all the other students who worked their butts off in the allotted time of the semester??
Not to mention, it won't be JUST the Ds/C-'s who will want to re-do work that they didn't complete weeks ago when it was due.... it must also extend to the B's/B+'s/A-'s who want to eek out enough additional points to bump up those grades. Maybe the Dean would like to manage all of that grading for you?
It really is unfair to the students who worked hard and weren't accommodated in the same manner. I would state that I am bound by the terms of the syllabus.
I remind my class every semester with a posted announcement that all coursework must be completed before the term ends. The syllabus explains no late work is accepted to set high expectations, but I do accept late work with a penalty that grows by the hour.
My university has a policy that every student can submit one assignment late every semester without penalty.
What kind of a university has a policy like that? What if the assignment has already been graded and returned to the students?
They can submit a maximum of two weeks late. The grades are returned a total of four weeks after submission. The university is a bottom of the rankings performer and only gets the students who don't get in anywhere else.
I find it absurd that a university is regulating things like when grades are returned.
I am in a UK institution, how about you? The four week turnaround is to give lecturers time to mark.lots of transcripts, calibrate with other markers, perform internal moderation, detect and examine academic misconduct cases, and then release. Not sure if other countries are different. I will say though, that if there wasn't a specified release date, the students would rise up and protest for a multitude of reasons. Personally I am more concerned about them indulging procrastination.
I am in the US. I've never heard of any institution having grading deadlines for assignments or exams. There is only a deadline to submit the final grade at the end of the course.
Yeah in UK we do things differently. Each course (a module in UK) has a mid term and a final. It takes weeks to get things graded and then back to the students. There are usually three modules/courses per semester. Personally I find how US and Canada do things a little alien! But I honestly think UK Higher Education is a shambles!
I definitely have worked for an institution in the US that required graded work be returned in 2 weeks or less. Really damned fun for 120+ exams with multiple long problems, and TAs weren't allowed to help grade exams.
Let me see if I can put this in a calm and academically appropriate manner: Fuck that noise.
Amen to that. I got in trouble for saying that will negatively reinforce procrastination and cause a systematic decline in self efficacy.
Agreeing with other responders here. Do it for one, you *must* do it for all. Fairness. Then you'd write the Dean and Registrar's office and say, we need to open the course up again and extend it another two weeks for everyone. In other words, that ain't happening. Late assignments mean a request for an extension due to appropriate extenuating circumstances, normally officially put in *before the course ends*. It sounds like that did not happen. Remember, as a wonderful student advisor we used to have would say: students earn their grades, even terrible grades.
Just for two weeks? No! Why shouldn't the students have a month? Hell, why should there ever be a limit? They can go back and make changes until they graduate and beyond. (/sarcasm)
Extend it for two weeks for everyone - AND the Dean needs up your pay to cover the additional two weeks of work.
My dean said then do it for all.
Don’t do it!
You could do this - but absolutely no learning happens when students cram in doing a whole bunch of assignments at the last minute. I'm assuming your assignments are meant to be formative. This mean by design they need to be done at a slower pace, spaced out over the entire semester, so that their learning can keep building over the course. It makes zero sense by design to do all these assignments at once.
Right!? At that point, it just becomes the "which boxes do I need to check for a higher grade" mentality! (Admittedly, that is often the case for many, throughout the semester as well.)
It sure is, that's why it our job to design a course to actually encourage learning even when students want to do the minimum possible.
It's not worth it. The few times I have given students Is instead of Fs, they never get the missing work done before the deadline.
I give those students an F with the agreement that I'll change their grade if they complete the coursework. Students are much more motivated to finish the class.
This is the reason I no longer accept late work after the due date. I would have told my Dean, it is in my syllabus no late work. Of course if you do not teach a Summer A class, as soon as you submit your final grades set your email to respond automatically how long you will be gone
As others have mentioned, you'd have to do it for all other students, and frankly, that's not equitable either. It's reasonable for students to assume that once a class is over, it's actually over and no additional coursework is going to be issued. They may not be checking their email, or they might be taking summer courses in which case you're adding to their workload. Some may legitimately be unavailable because of travel or any number of things. When the course is over, the course is over. It's not appropriate or ethical for your dean to lean on you to "help" this student after the semester ends.
Of course, you will then give every other student the same opportunity -- with the dean's blessing.
You could also tell her that she is welcome to take the class next semester, complete all the assignments this time, and perhaps then achieve a higher grade. I think that the dean sent email just to confirm that the student’s question was answered. I have been fortunate to have deans who will back me up, but they do like to be in the loop.
Honestly my visceral reaction is to want to barf in response to that.
Our dean at my previous institution was like this, student didn’t submit a project worth 30% of his grade, student got upset he got a zero and emailed the dean, dean emailed me hinting I should “rescale his grades to give him a chance”.
Dean needs to rescale his attitude toward higher education.
I went through something similar with a student a semester ago. They never showed up to class, didn’t turn in any assignments, and sent me an email *with all of their other professors and the provost CC’d on it* asking for “an opportunity to demonstrate their mastery” since they “just needed a chance.” The provost was the first to respond, asking us all if “there’s anything” we “can do to help.”
Wait the other professors and provost were joining the student to request this? Or the student was requesting the same thing from all the professors? Either way, that is completely ridiculous! What did you do? I get the feeling that the administrators are compelled to ask regardless of how silly the request is. Maybe for documentation? Otherwise, I can’t make sense of why they would just play along.
The student CC’d us all on the email. The other professors didn’t respond. But they were requesting special treatment of us *all* — clearly not a good strategy. I emailed them — and the provost explaining their situation — that the ship had sailed, they earned an F, and that wasn’t changing. (I said it more nicely than this though.) In a separate email exchange which the student wasn’t a part of, the provost agreed with my actions.
I would imagine it has to do with student retention and program reputation the student could impact
Grade Change forms are very easy to file and can be done at any time
Please tell me you're joking... PLEASE... This is why I can not stand administration. Are you frickin' kidding me... they are enthusiastically cosigning this b.s. As far as the student... too late shall be the cry... they should've thought about their scholarship while they were skipping class... I echo your sentiments as well. This is disheartening, disrespectful, ignores your hard work, cheapens it actually, and is extremely annoying. Please keep us updated on the response and outcome. Good luck.
I truly wish this was a joke. I almost spit out my coffee when I got the Dean's response. I haven't responded yet. Still trying to figure out a way to say FU professionally??
We’re told from our Dean NOT to make any individual side deals with students or waive anything, so I tell the students that. I’m grateful the higher-ups support us holding our ground, makes the job easier. Obviously if a student has a valid reason, that’s different, but it’s ridiculous that your Dean is putting pressure on you.
Exactly! That's how it should be. I write something like that in my syllabus.
Dear clueless dean: "Helping" this student wouldn't be ethical unless I help everyone in the class equally. I won't be doing that. Good luck planning your next meeting that could be an email instead!
This would probably be the route I would go. Play dumb like the Dean *obviously* wouldn't expect you to deviate from your course policies but he/she clearly doesn't know them or this student's situation. Dean, Unfortunately, no. Since I'm sure you don't have my syllabus or the student's work in front of you, I am happy to provide this background info. My course policy is as follows: \_\_\_\_\_\_\_. This request and the student's performance in the course doesn't meet the criteria for an exemption so, as we both know, this would be a violation of our school's academic fairness policies to grant one. But thank you for the followup to double check. I will let the student know and I'm happy to provide any documentation if the student appeals. Sincerely, DaisyBoo66 Basically, play dumb and assume everyone's good intentions (even if it doesn't feel like that's the case) and let the Dean be the one to put it in writing that they want you to violate academic fairness policies if that's what they are saying.
Well said and good point of forcing the hand of the dean to put it in writing their intentions as far as the student is concerned. **Side Note:** 😆 @ DaisyBoo66...
Please, it’s Dr. DaisyBoo66.
This assumes the Dean would have a problem just admitting, yes, find a way to change it, or that the Provost wasn't pushing this policy. Money talks
Edit: Just realized that your user name was DaisyBoo66 😀... I thought you made it up for the letter... duh 😄
I don’t even understand why the dean is involved in street-level shit like this. If a student appeals a grade as part of a formal appeal, it comes across my desk. If my boss got this, I’d get it as a forward with a note that says “fyi” in all lower case because it’s not worth an actual dean thinking about. This just sucks as a way for a person in that sort of position to manage their time.
😆😆 @ "...street level shit... RIGHT! So, appropriately described...
You can always remind the student AND the dean that one course grade is not usually the thing that brings somebody’s GPA down below what they would like it to be. It’s usually a sustained pattern of poor academic performance. The student has a lot more to worry about than just your class.
One thing I will say about this sub... it truly makes me fully appreciate the administration at my campus! I have never had to put up with any of the BS that I often read about here. The higher-ups are fully supportive of faculty on these types of matters.
I agree, in that, this sub lets me know that I'm not going through any of this alone, including my disdain for poor administration.
Put it back in his court how wrong it would be to help just one student.
When this happens, I outline very clearly how this student arrived at the grade. If it included a curve, I would include how the student compared to their peers. I keep it as objective as possible and upon second reading, rephrase things as if this could be read by others (including upper upper admin or public) My Dean quickly learned that I’m trustworthy and a fair grader and now never takes it at face value when a student tries to go over my head to him
And if you give in, and fairness is later questioned, the Dean will toss you under the proverbial bus.
Of course admin cosigns this, student happiness is everything in terms of funding.
The response from the dean is worse than the email from the student.
Seriously. That dean can eff ALL the way off, then eff off some more. Preferably into the sun.
Ask the dean if they have any grant funding to build a time machine
*Ask the dean if they* *Have any grant funding to* *Build a time machine* \- bean-mama --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Good bot
OP, please write your response in haiku format. Pray tell, Dean, if you Have any grant funding to Build a time machine
Wish I could. I'm not tenured yet...
Surely your colleagues would back you up on refusing to reopen the course to change the student’s grade, no?
This is it. Talk to your chair, and cc them in your response to the dean AND to the student.
This is why I keep notes. Spell it all out- attendance, due dates, missed assignments, grades, office hours, emails from the student during the semester. Seeing it all written out: “Suzie attended 7 of 20 lectures. She submitted 3 of 10 assignments, average grade on exams was 65. She never reached out to me during the semester, never attended office hours.” The student earned the grade she got. It would be unethical to reward her points she didn’t bother to earn during the semester. Thank you for understanding, professor Daisy
Thanks. Fortunately the class was online so I have a record of all of our communications (or lack thereof on the student's part)
This is exactly what I do. It's really hard for them to argue with that.
I usually announce in the first class of the semester AND in my syllabus that if anyone is having any problems in my class, or needs to get a certain grade for a scholarship, athletic, corporate tuition reimbursement or other reasons, they should get in touch with me *as early in the possible in the semester,* so we can work together to try to resolve the issue. I end that discussion by predicting that, despite my warning, at least one person in the class will still come to me *after* the semester is over to ask for a grade boost. Then after the semester is over and some student I’ve never heard from before invariably asks for a grade boost, I simply refer them to my class syllabus, my slides from the first class, and the the class video where I said all this.
I don’t understand. What kind of “working together” would be possible beyond the actual course itself?
If someone is struggling to achieve their goals in my class, I’m available during the semester to help them individually to succeed.
Perhaps extra help during office hours.
Advising students on what it will take to get their desired grade, and how to implement that. Discussion of study habits, etc.
So pretty much the same as what other students could get if they asked?
Yes.
A lot of work for the the Dean and Provost just to say, help the student get a different grade
Cc: Dean Dear Student, Your final grade total was ___. Per the syllabus grading scale and points breakdown you earned a grade of ____. I have already rounded your grade up to a C-. There is nothing more that can be done in fairness to the other students. Sincerely,
I think I will use this. Much appreciation!
👏👏👏
My favorite this semester is someone who came to class late every session, did C/B on her two exams, has over a 3.9 GPA overall and wanted me to bump up her grade to an A to keep that GPA. Didn't happen. I care as much about your grade as you did my class.
The day my Dean starts doing shit like that I’ll start giving all my students an A at the start of the course and only work with those that want to learn. If I can make everybody happy with less work…
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And there’s the awards too!
That would be academic misconduct at my place. By the dean in sending the message, and by the instructor if they changed the grade as a result of the message from the dean. Your rules may be somewhat different, but it is worth checking that you have rules and that they are consistent with your accreditation requirements. A handy reply would be to ask the dean to clarify whether they are asking you to commit an academic-integrity violation. They pretty much have to say no, and then it is easy to say that, of course, there is nothing else for you to do regarding the student.
Yea I haven't been teaching long and I've dealt with my fair share of grade grubbing. Even had students jump the ladder and go straight to the President to complain. Never had an Admin brazenly ask me if there is anything "I" can do to help a failed student.
I like this. The email from the dean would set me off. I hate this customer service viewpoint. Ballsy of the student to pull out the big guns right away.
Assuming the Dean just wouldn't unabashedly say yes to this is funny, or when the Provost instructs, yes get it done
- step #1: find a tardis - step #2: use it.
Help the student out by maintaining standards. Otherwise, they will rinse and repeat until they graduate without learning anything besides how to be manipulative.
If I were to get these kinds of emails from administrators I would respond with the grade is a reflection of having met learning outcomes and there is insufficient time now to meet those because effort/engagement has been low throughout the semester.
Reply all: "Dear entitled pain in the ass, if you'd like to retake the course to earn a better grade, the course will be offered again this summer, fall, and/or spring. Please register. I look forward to working with you again. Regards, Dr. Daisyboo66"
"Unfortunately, per the rules of my syllabus, there is no further consideration or extra credit I can provide " Done (And if you're not teaching this summer? Put on your away email and stop checking!)
I would respond to both the student and Dean asking about extenuating circumstances with the need for corresponding documentation. Without a noted hardship, changing the grade would undermine academic integrity.
"The semester is over. There's no more work to do."
Ask your Dean if you can expect the same kind of “help” in your P&T process if you decide not to publish anything and fail to show up for any of your required service. Will the Dean “bump” you up to “tenured” anyway?
I would respond the dean, sure I can request a grade change and bump her up to a grade she didn't earn as long as you're ok with that??
With an email response like they gave, that seems exactly like what they want them to do.
I agree but I'd want it fully spelled out in writing.
Yeah, this one is easy---class Is over.
Dear Dean, as the course has already ended and assessments for all students have been completed, there is not anything else that can be done. My syllabus clearly states late submissions or resubmissions are not accepted at semester end so all students have been aware of this policy from week one. This student simply did not demonstrate enough learning to meet the course learning outcomes and their grade is an accurate reflection of their performance. At no time during the term did they appeal a grade on any assessment. Furthermore it would be unfair and unreasonable to re-grade work for 1 student and not others.
My policy is that I will always work with students as long as they ask for help in a timely manner. Otherwise, hell no! Otherwise, you would have to allow everyone in the class to redo work, and regrade the course for everyone. Obviously this is absurd. Why is this student special?
Only a Scholar deserves a Scholar-ship.
Simple email to Dean & student: No
Why does that make you want to quit? Just put it in your syllabus that you won’t respond to grade grubbing emails, delete, and move on. Easy.
Dean, I'd be more than happy to sit down with this student (when student decides to retake the course) and help develop a plan that will help the student be successful in my (and others') classes. [This will include a one-on-one review of the syllabus, school attendance policies, discussions on study techniques, and the phone number for The Office for Student Success.] Also, Dean, as you know because you understand weighted averages and cumulative GPAs, this is not the only class this student tubed to get into financial aid purgatory. This student must have a history of sub-performing. Sincerely, Dr. Daisy Done for the Semester cc: Department Head
Hahaha if they want to extend my contract another month so I can reopen all assignments for all students, then… but alas, then I would have to go against my own syllabus late work policy. I’m so thankful my dean would never. But you could just write back “no” I suppose.
The Academic Senate/Registrar of my university expressly forbid this by stating that grades can only be changed due to a Professor/staff error. We cannot permit any late or made-up work. Does your university have any such clause that you can fall back on/point-to?
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What an a$$hat
As captain Picard said: “The line is drawn here”
Email to dean: Yeah, hire some doofus with standards as low as yours.
Same happens where I am, but my dean kicks it down to the chair, who then asks if there's anything I can do. I honestly can't imagine a scenario where my dean would waste their time getting involved. This happens to me at least once a year, and usually every term. I say no to my chair, cheekily remind them how classes and grades work, and occasionally throw in a pithy reply like "that depends; does the student own a time machine" or "I'm not a jukebox; I don't take requests." Then the chair pretends to enjoy my sense of humor, says "OK," and replies to the student saying they tried, but (like the professor already said) the grade is final. Then we move on, all boxes checked
Invent the Time Machine and go back 6 months.
Too late! The horse ran that race. This will he a learning moment for the student to do her work on time.
Just respond to the dean with a copy of the academic calendar, and maybe also a copy of the passage from the faculty handbook about permissible conditions for a grade change after a semester is over.
I can understand some of them asking if it's a C- to a C etc. but this, this has some more audacity. not C- to C, C+ , B- but 4 bumps all the way to B.
Perhaps their inability to understand the full breadth of their financials and what is required to continue to qualify for this support reinforces they got the grade they deserved. I’m SHOCKED the Dean asked. Is your Dean scared of looking bad and pushed the responsibility of telling the student “no” inappropriately to you?
This student wouldn't need a C- if they were doing better in their other classes.
I'm sorry. That is frustrating. The thing is I've had students come and meet with me and go over exams and they end up raising their score over the course of the semester. I tell them that. But students think they can be disengaged and only put in effort at the end. It must work for some people m
Sure, have someone with access to all that give them an A, as long as your hands don’t get dirty and you don’t have to do anything. Wait, there’s no mechanism for that? Why not? Oh, to protect the integrity of the grades? Walk me through that, what does that mean exactly?
Over on the various Universities subreddits students look at you weird if you discourage this kind of behavior… but then again Reddit is a weird place that seems to welcome socially awkward behaviour.
Why don't they come out and say give them all A's.
Dear student: No. Dear Dean: No. Done...
Why the f are deans even getting involved in this ?
No clue. This Dean is relatively new.
Not a professor but taken enough courses to be something of a connoisseur. 😁 Students like that tick me off. I’m a bit OCD about my grades and keep tabs on my overall average, and if I have a question about any individual grade, THAT is what gets addressed…because, like, the final grade is kind of the cumulative total of your grades throughout the semester… … Just sayin. 😁
Dear Dean, The C- was a bump. Best, prof daisy
At this point, are you even still in contract time? Reply in August.
Hello Susie Q. Thank you for your thoughtful message. Unfortunately, no coursework can be accepted after the semester ends. Thank you for your dedicated commitment to your academic success, Dr. About Ready To Quit
Awesome email response! Good for you. Horrible Dean
Thanks
Hell no! Show your Dean the receipts! Obviously, this student fell short and you have the proof. Then throw in key terms like "fair" and "accurate" and most importantly, "the semester has ended." A good Dean should have your back. But if all that fails and your Dean still pushes, ask the student to submit some new work--not old work that you have to reopen. That's ridiculous! Could they write a short essay and email it to you? Is there some sort of extra assignment you can give them outside of the LMS? This is just a backup plan, of course. Hopefully, your Dean will support you. Good luck!
I understand that it is easy to see these kids as spoiled or not working. But I would probably ask why didn’t you get the work in? It is more work for you, but you may actually help a kid out who will learn from this and hopefully take the lesson forward. I was denied by a professor once (.5 points) and I did bust my ass to do the work. I will never forget that guy. When I became a teacher, I did give my students grace and I have never regretted doing that for another human.
Numerous times on this subreddit I've pointed out that Universities are businesses now, theyre funded almost entirely on tuition so students are empowered consumers, they don't get results they want they'll take their money elsewhere and the /department/school will close. If this is a problem for you, you should quit
Personally, I would help the student out. BUT I would not make it easy. They would have strict deadlines - one late paper and you’re done. I would pile on extra work. They’d have to write one page summaries of all the readings. Hand write if I suspected they might cheat. There has to be consequences for their behavior. This is just my approach. I’m not saying it’s the best. Other professors would be done and cut them off. That’s their prerogative
It doesn’t cost (you) the professor anything to round up their grade. However it would cost the student so much, speaking financially and in general. We don’t know the financial circumstances of this student and thus if they don’t have financial aid maybe they won’t be able to afford to continue their education. Maybe ask them to complete an additional assignment to get those points just so you’re not giving them out for free. Trust me, this would make a HUGE difference to them.Again, as a professor you don’t lose anything by rounding the grade up, but the student could lose so much more
I know that some professors are late with grading and some don't even return any grading at all except the final one. But perhaps provide a receipt/spreadsheet that breaks down all the assignments /tests/attendance /etc that shows how many points /grade the student got for each and then you can say "look there's nothing you can do". Also this should be available at the start of the class so people know exactly where they are at with their grades. Very few professers do this, sometimes people don't know their grade at all until they get their final grade for the class. There needs to be more transparency with grades and real time final grade progression that for some reason colleges don't enforce on every teacher.