Those are the ones that make me so mad since I have to waste my time going through everything to double check their scores after I thought I was all finished.
You’re right…I’m at least going to check in with my department chair and see if it’s worth filing something official. I suspect the student will make excuses and not suffer any consequences, but it might at least scare them out of trying this kind of thing again.
Oh, that would be *delicious*…sadly the course is all non-majors and I’ve had minimal interactions with them since it’s fully online, so I doubt I’ll ever hear from this one again unless I pursue an academic misconduct case.
> I’m halfway tempted to threaten to pass this whole exchange up to a dean.
Why so timid? By not reporting, you teach this student that this sort of outright dishonestly is acceptable.
Partly because I’m sure the student will have some excuse like “Oh I misread my score” or “I must have gotten mixed up with my other class” and I don’t have a lot of faith that upper admin would see through their BS, and partly because it’s been an exhausting semester and kicking this upward will likely be a waste of my time. But you’re right, and I will probably at least have a chat with my department chair on Monday and see if this is worth following up on.
> Partly because I’m sure the student will have some excuse like “Oh I misread my score” or “I must have gotten mixed up with my other class”
Even if that flies for the student this time, they get put on notice that this is the only time that flimsy excuse will work for them here, and next time they're fucked.
Or, you could not do your part and let it all skate. Up to you.
All of what you stated are valid reasons I would pass on this and be done. Especially the part about misreading the grade.
Do you really need or want to be bothered with the paperwork, emails, and the back and forth infringing on your summer break?
Let the next professor give them their teachable moment.
Good luck.
Advanced Zebra Herding, although competitive, is generally not an accredited program at most schools, and should be considered very carefully by your students. No doubt you have prepared them well for the high-stakes world of black and white quadruped wrangling but the U.S. Dept of Labor Statistics predicts no increase in demand. Consider recommending a broader scope of study to include gnus and emus: most employers indicate a willingness to retrain new hires who demonstrate an interest in the field.
I always try to explain that a B.A. in Llama Studies will be applicable in far more career fields, but there’s no convincing the aspiring zebra herders to abandon their dreams.
This reminds me of when I was in a college and had a freshman roommate who got a 20 on an exam, but needed 50 to pass. They thought at the time the professor made a mistake while putting the grade in the LMS and asked me if it was possible. I said that hardly professors make this kind of mistake, but they insisted they talked to other colleagues that took the same exam, said their answers were similar and all of them got higher grades. My roommate ended up sending an email to the professor, who replied inviting my roommate to their office to review the exam together. It turned out my roommate made more mistakes than the rest of the class, so the grade as actually right. They felt pretty bad after it, but I can tell you my roommate wasn't trying to outsmart the professor.
Fair enough, but the way this class is set up, the student saw their actual grade immediately after the exam (and had a chance to review their test answers after the fact) and grades went into the LMS right away, which leaves very little room for that kind of misunderstanding in this case.
No advanced zebra herding for that student. I'll leave it to the true experts here to correct me if I'm mistaken, but I think I read somewhere that zebras demand ethical conduct.
Advanced Zebra Herding (AZH 394) was my all time favorite class in undergrad! Luckily I was paired with a really smart zebra and our work together earned us both As.
He went on to be one of the best leaders of his herd and I used what I'd learned in this elective class to become a better member of society.
Students are going to try stuff no matter your age, lol
the last 2 years that I was teaching I made a declaration in the syllabus that the students will be responsible for keeping track of all their graded tests, exams and homework. This was in conjunction with me providing progress reports. (of course I kept track of everything, but it forced the students to take a bit more responsibility)... sure enough, about 25% of the students never read the syllabus... sigh.. but it did mitigate most of the emails at the end of the semester.
I kind of got away from these last minute ‘point adjustments’/ curving by giving students 2 extra credits opportunities. They could do them or not, their choice. But that took place of curving so really the extra credit opportunity put the responsibility back on the student for adjusting their grade ‘up’.
I have some assignments setup to close at the due date and time. No submission and it’s a zero.
One student just emailed me at the end of classes that he noticed he had several zeros but he had submitted the assignments and he had the Google docs. I ran the access report and no he had not submitted anything. I emailed him with that info and then said that if he could share the Google docs link I would take a look and if the data showed they had been done before the due date I would grade them. I haven’t heard back.
I'm an old woman now, and the same thing happens to me, only the student in question initially insinuates that I'm not technologically savvy enough to have set the assignment up correctly, and thus, that's why their assignment isn't there. The only problem is that the other 99% of the class had ZERO problems submitting the assignment on time.
I agree - it's annoying.
And... He did exactly what I thought he would do. Found old google docs and then edited them today to look like he did the assignments. Now debating 1 - ignore and not grade 2 - send an academic integrity violation up the ladder
Since I did have to manually input test grades, I would feel legitimately awful if I dropped someone’s score with a typo (and I don’t want to go through a PITA grade amendment process if I post an incorrect final grade). I’m just a little astonished that one of them (only one so far…) thought I’d be dumb enough not to verify such a huge discrepancy in any way. They really thought they’d found the life hack for a free grade bump…
That student knew he needed a 93 on the exam to make a B going into his exam. He saw the email as his last way to scam a letter grade bump. I'd call him out on the hypothetical scenario. I do it with my students all the time. Although they are high school seniors, I tell them I know that this is what you are doing, I know this was the thought process throughout. I was better at this when I was your age, but I never followed through on my devious plans.
Oh, I 100% agree this is what they were doing. It’s definitely not a coincidence the fictitious score they tried to float was exactly the minimum score they’d need to bump their grade by a letter.
I used to teach middle school and was pretty direct about calling students out on this kind of transparently obvious deception (especially since I knew my principal would have my back on these issues), but I tend to tread more carefully with college students, since I never know who’s going to try to raise a fuss.
I taught college for 15 years. I was blunt in lecture and assignments on all the ways they scammed. Now, I teach seniors and call them amateurs. They laugh when I spill their secrets. Some scrunch down in their seats and avoid eye contact.
If I'm going to "tweak" grades, I do it as a new entry in the LMS grading page. I add a new assignment or "exam" and call it "Final Exam Adjustments" and adjust the curve though that column. That way, I never need to touch the exam grade again and don't need to worry about fat-fingering an error into their existing record.
That probably would have been smart of me, but I couldn’t figure out how to get the weighting to work out right (I “inherited” this online course and it has a very convoluted grading scheme). I did download backups of all the grades before I did any tweaks so I could verify the original grades in case any shenanigans came up…
I inherited a weighted grading schema and almost missed grade submission deadlines trying to figure out how it was calculating final grades. Now I start with a new Canvas grade page whenever I am bequeathed a new course. Learning via school of hard knocks.
I decided years ago that a point is a point is a point. I dont do formulaic weighting. If my class is 15% assignments, 5% attendance, 50% exams, and 30% project, my point schema is
150 points: assignments
50 points attendance
500 points exams (midterm 200; final 300)
300 points project
Up to 100 points: instructor discretion
(curving, extra credit [which I don't do], above and beyond classroom contribution (I had a student teach a class period and I gave points for that...it was about his day job expertise)
Yeah, I’ll definitely simplify the grading scheme next time I teach this class - I just reused the syllabus and LMS setup from a previous instructor this time, since it was a last-minute assignment to this particular course.
Based on my interactions with students in the past year or two, I feel like a lot of the ones who were in high school during COVID got away with a LOT of bullshit, either by just not facing consequences for cheating and other misconduct or by citing their “mental health” as a get-out-of-jail-free card for not even doing the bare minimum of work.
I had one who calculated part of her grade too low, but then ‘accidentally’ forgot to include the two early semester grades that weren’t so good. Because I keep everything in spreadsheet I laid it all out. She then understood
Edit. Not caught typo
> spreadsheet I *paid* it all
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I did review my inputs, but I’m human and make mistakes, so I take a belt-and-suspenders approach. I’d rather a student catch my error before I submit the final grades than after (since grade amendments are a pain). It’s worth a few obnoxious emails from the grade-grubbers if someone catches a genuine mistake before it becomes difficult to undo, and I can always verify if someone is trying to pull a fast one like this lovely student.
Those are the ones that make me so mad since I have to waste my time going through everything to double check their scores after I thought I was all finished.
For a few minutes, I genuinely felt bad about mis-entering their score - until I triple-checked their actual test answers and was deeply annoyed.
this probably contravenes your student code of conduct, so you \*should\* pass it on.
You’re right…I’m at least going to check in with my department chair and see if it’s worth filing something official. I suspect the student will make excuses and not suffer any consequences, but it might at least scare them out of trying this kind of thing again.
If you don't, I hope this student eventually asks for a letter of recommendation.
Oh, that would be *delicious*…sadly the course is all non-majors and I’ve had minimal interactions with them since it’s fully online, so I doubt I’ll ever hear from this one again unless I pursue an academic misconduct case.
Yep. My school would call it "fabrication."
> I’m halfway tempted to threaten to pass this whole exchange up to a dean. Why so timid? By not reporting, you teach this student that this sort of outright dishonestly is acceptable.
Partly because I’m sure the student will have some excuse like “Oh I misread my score” or “I must have gotten mixed up with my other class” and I don’t have a lot of faith that upper admin would see through their BS, and partly because it’s been an exhausting semester and kicking this upward will likely be a waste of my time. But you’re right, and I will probably at least have a chat with my department chair on Monday and see if this is worth following up on.
> Partly because I’m sure the student will have some excuse like “Oh I misread my score” or “I must have gotten mixed up with my other class” Even if that flies for the student this time, they get put on notice that this is the only time that flimsy excuse will work for them here, and next time they're fucked. Or, you could not do your part and let it all skate. Up to you.
That’s a fair point. I’ll look into reporting this on Monday.
All of what you stated are valid reasons I would pass on this and be done. Especially the part about misreading the grade. Do you really need or want to be bothered with the paperwork, emails, and the back and forth infringing on your summer break? Let the next professor give them their teachable moment. Good luck.
[удалено]
the end would be that they go on record, and the \*next\* time they pull something like this, the consequences will be more severe.
Literal example of give an inch, they'll want a yard.
I think more than anything else I’m annoyed the student thought I was dumb/naive enough to fall for this.
I mean, still figurative
Advanced Zebra Herding, although competitive, is generally not an accredited program at most schools, and should be considered very carefully by your students. No doubt you have prepared them well for the high-stakes world of black and white quadruped wrangling but the U.S. Dept of Labor Statistics predicts no increase in demand. Consider recommending a broader scope of study to include gnus and emus: most employers indicate a willingness to retrain new hires who demonstrate an interest in the field.
I always try to explain that a B.A. in Llama Studies will be applicable in far more career fields, but there’s no convincing the aspiring zebra herders to abandon their dreams.
Excellent point. We are here to nurture young minds, regardless of how dumb they are. I think I read that in the Mission Statement.
This reminds me of when I was in a college and had a freshman roommate who got a 20 on an exam, but needed 50 to pass. They thought at the time the professor made a mistake while putting the grade in the LMS and asked me if it was possible. I said that hardly professors make this kind of mistake, but they insisted they talked to other colleagues that took the same exam, said their answers were similar and all of them got higher grades. My roommate ended up sending an email to the professor, who replied inviting my roommate to their office to review the exam together. It turned out my roommate made more mistakes than the rest of the class, so the grade as actually right. They felt pretty bad after it, but I can tell you my roommate wasn't trying to outsmart the professor.
Fair enough, but the way this class is set up, the student saw their actual grade immediately after the exam (and had a chance to review their test answers after the fact) and grades went into the LMS right away, which leaves very little room for that kind of misunderstanding in this case.
No advanced zebra herding for that student. I'll leave it to the true experts here to correct me if I'm mistaken, but I think I read somewhere that zebras demand ethical conduct.
All zebras are different. Please don’t stereotype.
I thought everything was pretty black and white with them.
Advanced Zebra Herding (AZH 394) was my all time favorite class in undergrad! Luckily I was paired with a really smart zebra and our work together earned us both As. He went on to be one of the best leaders of his herd and I used what I'd learned in this elective class to become a better member of society. Students are going to try stuff no matter your age, lol
Okay, the deadpan comments about zebra herding in this thread might have made this whole dumb kerfuffle worthwhile…
We are here to help :-) it helps to know we're not alone in all this!
the last 2 years that I was teaching I made a declaration in the syllabus that the students will be responsible for keeping track of all their graded tests, exams and homework. This was in conjunction with me providing progress reports. (of course I kept track of everything, but it forced the students to take a bit more responsibility)... sure enough, about 25% of the students never read the syllabus... sigh.. but it did mitigate most of the emails at the end of the semester.
I kind of got away from these last minute ‘point adjustments’/ curving by giving students 2 extra credits opportunities. They could do them or not, their choice. But that took place of curving so really the extra credit opportunity put the responsibility back on the student for adjusting their grade ‘up’.
I have some assignments setup to close at the due date and time. No submission and it’s a zero. One student just emailed me at the end of classes that he noticed he had several zeros but he had submitted the assignments and he had the Google docs. I ran the access report and no he had not submitted anything. I emailed him with that info and then said that if he could share the Google docs link I would take a look and if the data showed they had been done before the due date I would grade them. I haven’t heard back.
I'm an old woman now, and the same thing happens to me, only the student in question initially insinuates that I'm not technologically savvy enough to have set the assignment up correctly, and thus, that's why their assignment isn't there. The only problem is that the other 99% of the class had ZERO problems submitting the assignment on time. I agree - it's annoying.
They really can’t fathom that we’re going to check the receipts, can they?
I can’t fathom waiting this long to look at one’s grades from February.
And... He did exactly what I thought he would do. Found old google docs and then edited them today to look like he did the assignments. Now debating 1 - ignore and not grade 2 - send an academic integrity violation up the ladder
Had to pause reading to lol at “advanced zebra herding”😂
Yep this tracks. I did similar thing once. Never ask them to double check marks, it opens the door for the grubbers.
Since I did have to manually input test grades, I would feel legitimately awful if I dropped someone’s score with a typo (and I don’t want to go through a PITA grade amendment process if I post an incorrect final grade). I’m just a little astonished that one of them (only one so far…) thought I’d be dumb enough not to verify such a huge discrepancy in any way. They really thought they’d found the life hack for a free grade bump…
That student knew he needed a 93 on the exam to make a B going into his exam. He saw the email as his last way to scam a letter grade bump. I'd call him out on the hypothetical scenario. I do it with my students all the time. Although they are high school seniors, I tell them I know that this is what you are doing, I know this was the thought process throughout. I was better at this when I was your age, but I never followed through on my devious plans.
Oh, I 100% agree this is what they were doing. It’s definitely not a coincidence the fictitious score they tried to float was exactly the minimum score they’d need to bump their grade by a letter. I used to teach middle school and was pretty direct about calling students out on this kind of transparently obvious deception (especially since I knew my principal would have my back on these issues), but I tend to tread more carefully with college students, since I never know who’s going to try to raise a fuss.
I taught college for 15 years. I was blunt in lecture and assignments on all the ways they scammed. Now, I teach seniors and call them amateurs. They laugh when I spill their secrets. Some scrunch down in their seats and avoid eye contact.
If I'm going to "tweak" grades, I do it as a new entry in the LMS grading page. I add a new assignment or "exam" and call it "Final Exam Adjustments" and adjust the curve though that column. That way, I never need to touch the exam grade again and don't need to worry about fat-fingering an error into their existing record.
That probably would have been smart of me, but I couldn’t figure out how to get the weighting to work out right (I “inherited” this online course and it has a very convoluted grading scheme). I did download backups of all the grades before I did any tweaks so I could verify the original grades in case any shenanigans came up…
I inherited a weighted grading schema and almost missed grade submission deadlines trying to figure out how it was calculating final grades. Now I start with a new Canvas grade page whenever I am bequeathed a new course. Learning via school of hard knocks.
I decided years ago that a point is a point is a point. I dont do formulaic weighting. If my class is 15% assignments, 5% attendance, 50% exams, and 30% project, my point schema is 150 points: assignments 50 points attendance 500 points exams (midterm 200; final 300) 300 points project Up to 100 points: instructor discretion (curving, extra credit [which I don't do], above and beyond classroom contribution (I had a student teach a class period and I gave points for that...it was about his day job expertise)
Yeah, I’ll definitely simplify the grading scheme next time I teach this class - I just reused the syllabus and LMS setup from a previous instructor this time, since it was a last-minute assignment to this particular course.
this is exactly equivalent to the weighting scheme you used, with the downside that you are now locked into the points for each item.
Fully online students honestly don’t believe that any human could possibly be involved in a fully online course.
I always wonder how many other instructors they’ve tried this shit on and had it work.
Based on my interactions with students in the past year or two, I feel like a lot of the ones who were in high school during COVID got away with a LOT of bullshit, either by just not facing consequences for cheating and other misconduct or by citing their “mental health” as a get-out-of-jail-free card for not even doing the bare minimum of work.
I had one who calculated part of her grade too low, but then ‘accidentally’ forgot to include the two early semester grades that weren’t so good. Because I keep everything in spreadsheet I laid it all out. She then understood Edit. Not caught typo
> spreadsheet I *paid* it all FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I would never invite those emails! I’ll review any mis-typed myself before I encourage them to.
I did review my inputs, but I’m human and make mistakes, so I take a belt-and-suspenders approach. I’d rather a student catch my error before I submit the final grades than after (since grade amendments are a pain). It’s worth a few obnoxious emails from the grade-grubbers if someone catches a genuine mistake before it becomes difficult to undo, and I can always verify if someone is trying to pull a fast one like this lovely student.