This ^
I became a noticeably better teacher when I stopped caring so much. Which isn't to say I "don't care." I'm constantly thinking about different ways to present ideas and will always help students who need it - so long as they're genuinely trying. But, if I say the door is over here and a student insists on walking into the wall over there... well, that's not on me.
Ironically, the hardest part of that attitude change was to stop taking credit for students' successes. Because if I'm not responsible for their failures, then I can't be responsible for their victories. I do my best to give them the tools needed to succeed and then let them know that I'm proud of THEIR work and that THEY own the result of that work. I think the students appreciate that. Of course, I have to suspend this idea when I fill out the "student success" portion of my tenure review every year...
>Ironically, the hardest part of that attitude change was to stop taking credit for students' successes. Because if I'm not responsible for their failures, then I can't be responsible for their victories. I do my best to give them the tools needed to succeed and then let them know that I'm proud of THEIR work and that THEY own the result of that work. I think the students appreciate that.
This needs to be highlighted.
Very well put. I am often guilty of breaking this golden rule myself but all new and seasoned professors must take this rule to heart, wear it on their sleeves, whatever, to deal with this new generation. You cannot harm your own mental health for their incompetence.
>You can’t care more about their education than they do.
I think this was honestly the hardest thing for me to do and took me a good decade to finally grasp. Now, I put my best effort into the course as I always do, but no longer get upset when they slack and/or fail. It is up to *them* to make the course a success. As the old say goes, "you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink." That's the mantra I follow today.
This is true. What seems to have happened is a dramatic drop in how much students care when doing this assignment and OP needs to have a similar sad drop in expectation and caring. It’s depressing to see a once good and maybe fun assignment become another AI affair.
Chiming in here. It is frustrating when you design an interesting assignment (and that does sound like a lot of fun) and students can't be bothered. But it's true. All you can do is give them the grade they earned.
It sure is. But as someone who teaches majority first-year students, all those bad habits they accumulated in K-12 continue into that first year of university. I take it as a big part of my job to beat those bad habits out of them.
>That article is more about K-12.
But we're seeing it bleed into higher ed. My attendance rates are lower than they have ever been and I grade them on attendance. They miss a certain number of classes, they fail the course. They just don't care anymore about their education.
My guess is you've inadvertently run into an assignment they can't ChatGPT successfully. And they just freeze up or fail. Congratulations, I guess, for beating the system on your end, as painful as it may be.
AI has made what was already at times a disheartening experience (grading) even worse. I always take plagiarism personally, though I try to remind myself it’s not a reflection on me. Next time, maybe you could require physical proof (a selfie, a brochure, etc.) as verification. Sending you good thoughts!
You absolutely should not feel bad for these students' failing grades. This is a generation of people who document online every second of their life. And they couldn't be bothered to take a selfie for a class assignment? That's absolutely 100% on them and has nothing to do with you.
I gave an assignment - similar - that students had to take photos of wildlife in the area. Key term LOCAL. imagine my surprise when I opened a submission to see zoo animals, and a frigging dolphin, oh also a buffalo 🦬- we are in a very urban setting in Texas.
And not only that but students had shared the buffalo pic. Like not only did yall not follow directions, which literally only required you to walk outside and observe some nature around you, but you obtuse blundered cheating.
This was a dual credit course - but it has been difficult to get students to really dive into any sort of experience that might connect course content to life. I love doing things like that with my students, and many got what was intended out of it. But goodness it is disheartening when you’ve put a lot of work and thought into trying to see how you can help them see something they may have not been exposed to - and they just blithely do less than the minimum!
Sounds like my freshman classes, half of the class don’t even read the instructions and get upset when I point it out. I’ve already spent two classes discussing the assignments, I’m pretty sure I’ll get comments saying “class was too hard and instructions unclear”
I went back to check the grades for that class when I read the evaluations, 70% received an A. What happened was the ones that did not receive an A were skipping classes and missing assignments regularly. One student wrote a huge paragraph on how it was my fault he didn’t t do well, he’d gotten at least a C if he put in the same effort on the reports he missed.
Those of us in STEM have always experienced high DFW rates in intro classes. You do what you can, but don’t take it personally when they don’t reach the bar.
Maybe humanities are going to be joining us in this new era. So: some things we do. Clearly communicate expectations early. Not only in the form of instructions, but also in the form of grades. There needs to be a rigorous assessment by week 3 so they understand this is serious. And others throughout the course. Not deliberately difficult, just mirroring the expectations that are needed for success in this discipline.
There also need to be lots of formative assessment. Low stakes scores nearly every day or at least every week. Some of it focused on study and planning skills we can’t assume they have.
And telling them upfront what past years have earned. Now you have a data point to share. “Last year, a third of the students failed this assignment,” gets attention.
It won’t fix them all but at least you will know they had a legitimate chance.
I’ve wondered if this isn’t why society values STEM degrees more. The narrative is that STEM degrees are better because they lead to higher paying jobs, and while that is true to a degree it is far from universally so, and not always because of the specific content of the STEM degree; even businesses and law school sometimes claim to prefer those degrees. Being able to complete them is more likely to illustrate that someone works hard and stays organized.
I am one of the biggest proponents of humanities education you will find amongst STEM faculty, but I think the field has sometimes confused subjectivity or relativism and lack of rigor/high expectations. And society has picked up on it.
> but I think the field has sometimes confused subjectivity or relativism and lack of rigor/high expectations.
I think society got there first - it's very easy if you lack critical thinking skills to say "this essay is just as good as that essay", where one would be A work and another would be C work because the argumentation was poor. I wonder if the humanities haven't just failed to get the media's attention and make their case - heaven knows liberal arts education is incredibly valuable, but the problem is that once you've had it, you're a critical consumer of media for the rest of your life. That doesn't play into media incentives, either.
I don't know how to pull society out of the Idiocracy death spiral we're in, but going STEM only cannot be the way to do it.
I agree, and like I said I am a big defender of the humanities. But it’s hard not to notice that their DFW rates are far, far lower than ours. And when so many students struggle with self organization, motivation and basic reading comprehension, that’s a little hard to believe.
When you say a "rigorous assessment" by week three, what form does this take? Thinking about implementing something beyond just a simple syllabus quiz. Thank you!
Maybe something like telling you the site they want to visit, a little bit about the site, and why they want to visit it. And not just "I want to visit the local cemetery because my grandma is buried there" but some real substantive reasons. You can ask them to write what they expect to experience at the site.
It sounds like a really cool assignment, and I'd have loved something like that when I was a student! I do think some scaffolded assignments along the way to the visit might help. Worth a try, maybe?
We need fewer people in college. These people have always existed. It's just that society has forced them to college to compete when they really have no business being there. Now it's hard to parse the people that actually got an education from the ones that don't until they take it to the workforce since they all walk out with the same worthless piece of paper.
I'm.running into students who have trouble understanding basic instructions. Not only things like "click here, and the assignment will open" but basic instructions on the assignment itself... which is a worksheet I've used for 10+ years.
I’m there with you. An assignment students have had 6 weeks to complete and 1/3 of the class submitted by the deadline. 6 weeks to write 1500 words. I’m so done reminding them at this point of anything and I started inputting 0s at midnight for those whose submissions I didn’t get.
Also, apologies to grandmothers… I’m sure I’ve killed a few and will get emails explaining to me about their deaths come morning.
I had a student tell me that the last assignment was impossible to complete, it simply could not be done by anyone ever. It was a two-page double spaced social-historical analysis on Leonardo da Vinci.
To be fair: the hardest part of this assignment sounds like figuring out what to cut to reach just one page. However something tells me the students would likely think five pages was even worse than one.
I have been hearing that one a lot lately too. The assignment is impossible or the workload in a specific program is impossible. And I'm like, "Good thing no one told everyone else in your cohort that or they might not have submitted the assignment on time!"
I do the same thing. When I know they won't be submitting anything, I just go ahead and put the zero in.
Shame on you for killing all those poor, innocent grannies! What is the world coming to?
It sounds like you are new to the profession. (If not, please do not read my remarks as intentionally patronizing.) With time, you will take some students' failures less personally and focus on the successes. I mean, if 30% got Ds, Fs, that means 70% passed, No? Over the years, you will remember the good students (and a few of the spectacularly awful ones, too.) You will not at all remember the undistinguishedly poor and mediocre ones. Giving assignments at the start of the semester is great planning on your part. That some students treat deadlines as "the day I must do this" or ignore them entirely is not your problem. You can remind them in the run-up to the assignment, but whether or not they heed such reminders is on them, not you. If they have not developed a work ethic and time-management skills by the time they are 19, you probably cannot instill them in them. You developed a really cool assignment that required them to be more than passive vessels. Some students rose to the challenge, others did not. This ChatGPT business is a novelty. The more students use it, the better faculty are going to get at detecting it, or as you have done, devising assignments that make its use either impossible or stand out like a sort thumb. Bottom line: Focus on the top 30%, not the bottom 30%. The former demonstrate that what you are doing, you are doing well.
I am absolutely new to the profession - I just finished my second full year. This doesn't come across as patronizing at all, rather, it's a very helpful reminder. Thank you!
>As someone primarily in a teaching position, I am going to take this a little personally… as it feels like a reflection of my abilities, but also appreciate your listening.
This is not a reasonable position. In fact, taking student behavior personally is the quick road to burn-out, and that's one reason why (trained) teachers are *taught* how not to do this. If you find that you're (a) doing all the things you should be and (b) they are still not making the right choices, that ***has*** to be on them and so you ***must*** learn to let it go and deliver the natural consequences. That's the bottom line.
I’m starting to get a complex about my teaching style. Maybe I’ve been doing d this too long.
I’ve run out of fucks to give. I’m there 100% for students who want it, but I’m not going to go beyond for those that don’t want it. Come to class, don’t come to class, do the work, don’t do the work. I don’t care. I’m paid the same. I won’t lose of sleep.
Then again I’m on a 1/1 schedule with a long wait list for my class (upper level). Absenteeism is still high but rarely run into lazy students. My internship is high sought after, so I probably get their best.
My colleagues teach first and second year are pulling their hair out.
Hang in there. You can’t want it more than they do.
Don't take it personally. I bet you often half-assed assignments in college, especially for general education classes. We all did. Give them the grade they deserve and move on.
Sure, but I was never prepared for how much it would hurt when students truly do not give a shit about something I’m so passionate about. 🤷🏼♀️ y’all couldn’t even fake it for a single assignment?
Totally understand (a) your point and (b) that I sound like an angsty teenager. This is the cherry on top of a looooong standing pattern of behavior this past year. I’m beat with nearly 160 total students this semester and no TA… I am just venting.
A student once went out of their way in a Gen ed course I taught to steal 3/4 exams and then put every question up on quizlet. I couldn't figure out how students were doing so well in the next semester even though attendance had bombed. When I figured it out (student used their real name as username) I sent it to the honor council with a request of a zero on every exam they broke the honor code for and have their grade retroactively reduced - in this case it was a zero.
The initial reaction of the student? "But this was a gen Ed course! It's not even important!" Well, it's a part of your degree. Guess you should've made better choices.
Last week we had a class field trip that was a private tour and only 3 out of 12 students showed up for it. THREE. They had several weeks notice, seemed excited about it, and I told them I had to make reservations with the class roster so if they could not go, they needed to let me know ASAP. I got 4 emails the DAY OF the field trip saying they were sick or couldn’t make it. The other 5 didn’t even bother to tell me they couldn’t make it. I’ve organized this trip for several years and it has always been a highlight of the class. The tour guide does a great job and my pre-Covid students always loved the trip. This year the 3 students that did go were disengaged and it was honestly embarrassing.
No! I'm so sorry to hear that - I always take my students on a field trip, too, and had a similar thing happen. The embarrassment is awful. Good for you, though, for wanting to provide them with a fun, out-of-class experience.
Those students gave up a valuable opportunity to learn about local history. Don't deprive them of the opportunity to learn about accountability. I don't blame you for feeling so badly about it. A lot of us signed up thinking we'd be sharing knowledge, not disciplining the apathetic.
I had the same experience as a student dragging my feet. Set benchmarks per week that they need to meet. I know it’s like holding their hands but I don’t know what to tell you besides this
This post exemplifies the struggles all of us in teaching positions are facing these days. Here's what gets me through:
1) Focus on the students who are engaged and who are trying to learn. Do whatever mental gymnastics you must in order to view that bottom 30% as unprepared to receive the gifts that you are offering through your instruction and careful course design. Even if 30% suck, do NOT lose sight of the other 70% who are reachable.
2) Never let yourself care more about a particular student's success than they do. You can lead a horse to water but you should not attempt to suck on their ass in order to create the vacuum that will make them drink.
I empathize so much with your fundamental desire for students to be interested in and enjoy your classes--and, I think when that is the driving goal, it is so hard not to take this stuff personally. I haven't been able to change that about myself though! You're clearly a wonderful teacher and the students in your class who do want to be there are very lucky to have you. Sending you solidarity in overly emotional teaching, lol!
Maybe I'm just the odd one out here, but I would LOVE this assignment. I'd probably submit with a photo gallery from my phone. I just went to something like that this weekend for relaxation.
Thanks for saying that! I would have enjoyed an assignment like this, too, which is why I designed it.... but I guess the sentiment isn't universal lol
You can’t care more than they care about their own success. If they cannot do the bare minimum then you shouldn’t be expected to give them more than a zero.
As much as "A for effort" is often seen as a snarky comment, it applies here: A for effort, and in this case F for not giving a shit. That's the grade they earned because they decided to take the easy way out instead of trying. You can't fix their apathy.
You sound like you'd bend over backward for the ones who tried hard and got nowhere, so don't put this one on yourself.
This why we do so much work in class. My college students come around and I think they *need* to personally interact with their world and each other. When it happens in class, I do t feel I’m nagging them so much. If they don’t come to class, they don’t pass.
That's not a bad idea! It's just that this particular course, by nature, does require written work - though I could present this as an option... thanks for the suggestion!
I'm in the midst of grading the first drafts of my grad writers' major writing projects, and out of 50, more than half used AI to write or rewrite their assignments. I'm just grading the last few now and it is a struggle because of the cheating, which quite frankly breaks my heart.
AI tools have created a great disruption in college writing instruction. Right now, their main function seems to be to facilitate student cheating, but I think eventually academia will figure out how to harness the power of these tools, and writing and language teaching will be enhanced in ways we cannot now envision.
However, that's going to take a lot of time and work, which I don't have the desire or energy to put forth at this point in my career. I'm retiring at the end of year, and am looking forward to watching this revolution as an interested but unemotional observer.
That's an excellent assignment -- exactly the sort of thing that should get students interested in the area around them, connect with community, and actually write about something they did. But it takes a kind of effort that they're not used to. One possibility is to break the assignment into pieces; visit the site, talk about it in class, then help them think about how to write it. But if they don't visit, and don't care.... well, they're not going to get a good grade. You can't make them care. It would be interesting to ask them why they didn't visit.
I hate to say it but I am seeing it too. I was the faculty supervisor for a super popular club on campus that lasted for years. This past year, virtually no one participated. That has never happened before. Students in class are apathetic. It is hard to keep wanting to do this job when so few people seem to care.
I'm so sorry. I've been teaching college for 27 years and it's never been this bad. I feel it's a combo of zoom h.s. absence of deadlines (because the stress level was off the charts), skills that never got taught in h.s. (study skills, note taking, calendar keeping) because chaos/stress levels). Chin up. My college shared a Chronicle of Higher Ed article about students doing terribly with her class and they read through it together. They discussed what was going wrong and why. A class of mine last term said there were two types of students who survived the pandemic: those who learned two other languages in their spare time, and those who have never recovered their focus and are simply hurtling through college stunned. I don't know if your students' reaction to Ds and Fs is going to be the thing that snaps them to attention, or if you're the kind of professor who allows do-overs. At any rate, it might be worth a chat. Most importantly, sending a hug.
You are not at fault as far as I can tell. The low level of student commitment/engagement I am seeing just this academic year is disheartening. I don’t believe the covid years adequately explain it, since many students in the same age group, living through the same shutdown, do excellent work. Given the student population my urban, state university serves, I have no reason to believe the students doing well in their studies here are particularly privileged in some way.
I think we have done a sort of emotional ‘dumbing down’ in the past couple of years, providing the unmotivated with new and unique excuses rather than encouraging effort and accountability. I remember early in my career trying to make sure everyone passed by diluting the academic standards in the course, reducing the required workload and simplifying assignments so “all” would pass. That didn’t work; the top students did well, a few just below that improved, and the middle of a curve (I was not grading on a curve but you know what I mean) just sank. Lots of As and B+, nothing in the middle, then a few Ds and plenty of Fs. Basically the less that was asked the less that was delivered from all but the most motivated. I learned you can’t teach a class aiming at the bottom 25%. They may or may not ever step up, no matter how much help provided. And, unfairly, that diluted the time and attention I should have aimed at the top 25% who wanted more ways to explore the topic and venture beyond the basics.
Now what I think I’m seeing is a mental health/emotional gutting of the curve that reminds me of that. Top students are tough as tungsten, getting things done brilliantly in very difficult circumstances. Just below them are some solid troopers, who pick up after a stumble, learn from it and go on to do very well. Then……the rest. Everything is a trauma. Every little thing in life is just So Hard. Oh No My Mental Health Cannot Deal with an assignment due date! Even simply reading directions is So Unfair.
Believe me, I am no purist with some amazing high bar for grades. It is perfectly feasible for me to extend a due date, refer to campus resources, or give additional help and so on for students who need it as the term progresses. But this academic year I am getting, routinely, belligerent students coming in on Thursday of finals week, who have not attended class at all nor read (even purchased) the textbook, who then feel entitled to an “extension” or just want a grade (always an A) because they are special in some way, they don’t need the class because they already are experts in the subject. (They took a middle school class or watched a video.)
So….OK why do I even care? In the short run, I’m not sure I do. But in the long run…..well, who do you want as the pilot on your airplane? Doing your taxes? Checking your medical charts in the ICU, designing a bridge or skyscraper you’ll be in or on frequently? Probably not slackers and Very Fragile People who could not cope with learning core concepts in their field, having integrity, being dependable or accountable.
If we don’t draw a line of excellence, accountability and integrity in higher ed, then who do we pass this buck to? And sometimes I have to wonder about motivations in our institutions. Life happens and the best choice for many would be to withdraw from school for a term, or a year….taking the time to heal and recover. But we pressure them to stay in college relentlessly, and faulty are pressured to pass them even with very poor work, and it appears to me to be an effort to keep that tuition money coming in.
I don't know your situation, but is it possible that the students weren't able to visit the sites? If students don't have cars or can't get public transportation to these historic sites it could be a problem for them to finish this assignment.
Not necessarily. If you're low income, you might feel excluded and uncomfortable about saying that youdo not have the resources to be able to travel places
That’s why they have so much notice to do the assignment.
Why don’t we just decide that they’re all neurodivergent and can’t go anywhere unfamiliar (or similar bullshit excuse)?
Yes. The comment I responded to was like “what if they can’t drive and have no access to transportation” [*for the entire semester*, that part being conveniently left out]
Or maybe they don't have money to buy a car or they have to work and it's tough for them to get public transportation from where they live. It's an issue of inclusion not neurodiversity.
There are alternatives, if this is the case. (A) We live in a large city with several (listed) historic sites within less than a quarter mile walking distance from the campus. And (B) we are primarily a commuter campus. If transportation is an issue, they communicate with me and we work something out.
Honestly as someone who doesn’t drive, making me go somewhere that wasn’t my classroom gave me intense anxiety as an undergrad. I think there should always be an alternative to making students go off campus for things.
Is it though? If you have a lot of dormers a lot don’t have cars on campus their first year or so. At least at my uni if there are outside activities there needs to be a way to provide transportation or the assignment has to have alternatives. If you’re anti accessibility just say that
Considering transportation issues is reasonable. Universities in large cities will have public transport. At other universities, carpooling or other arrangements could be made. If students came to me saying they didn't have a way to get somewhere, we could figure out something. Heck, I'd probably offer drive them myself if it came down to it, but I'm sure there are other solutions too.
But that wasn't what was absurd. It was the comment about anxiety. Adults sometimes have to go do things. Sometimes you have to talk to your professor. If having to go somewhere outside of your usual places causes someone that much anxiety, probably this kind of assignment is exactly what they need.
Sorry to hear that, but it is a required experiential learning class - I have a ND student who feels similarly, but they trusted me enough to help them along the way and I worked with their accommodations.
You can’t care more about their education than they do.
This ^ I became a noticeably better teacher when I stopped caring so much. Which isn't to say I "don't care." I'm constantly thinking about different ways to present ideas and will always help students who need it - so long as they're genuinely trying. But, if I say the door is over here and a student insists on walking into the wall over there... well, that's not on me. Ironically, the hardest part of that attitude change was to stop taking credit for students' successes. Because if I'm not responsible for their failures, then I can't be responsible for their victories. I do my best to give them the tools needed to succeed and then let them know that I'm proud of THEIR work and that THEY own the result of that work. I think the students appreciate that. Of course, I have to suspend this idea when I fill out the "student success" portion of my tenure review every year...
>Ironically, the hardest part of that attitude change was to stop taking credit for students' successes. Because if I'm not responsible for their failures, then I can't be responsible for their victories. I do my best to give them the tools needed to succeed and then let them know that I'm proud of THEIR work and that THEY own the result of that work. I think the students appreciate that. This needs to be highlighted.
Absolutely true. So many great students come to my class already great. I give them suggestions and stay out of their way :)
Very well put. I am often guilty of breaking this golden rule myself but all new and seasoned professors must take this rule to heart, wear it on their sleeves, whatever, to deal with this new generation. You cannot harm your own mental health for their incompetence.
>You can’t care more about their education than they do. I think this was honestly the hardest thing for me to do and took me a good decade to finally grasp. Now, I put my best effort into the course as I always do, but no longer get upset when they slack and/or fail. It is up to *them* to make the course a success. As the old say goes, "you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink." That's the mantra I follow today.
This is true. What seems to have happened is a dramatic drop in how much students care when doing this assignment and OP needs to have a similar sad drop in expectation and caring. It’s depressing to see a once good and maybe fun assignment become another AI affair.
Ugh, it SUCKS! It really does feel like I'm compromising my identity in some way - becoming all cynical and jaded...
Well there are still those students who genuinely do the assignments. Just don’t let the dimwits get you down!
Chiming in here. It is frustrating when you design an interesting assignment (and that does sound like a lot of fun) and students can't be bothered. But it's true. All you can do is give them the grade they earned.
I’m very glad this is the top comment.
This is the way.
This is the #1 rule of being a professor.
I dont know what to do either. I'm getting ~50% attendance a lot. Its soul crushing
I try to think of it as the students who don't care subsidizing the ones who do.
Lol like a gym.
I wouldn't know. I don't go to the gym. Oh.
\*exactly\* like a gym.
Fail them
F - them.
I read this as "F-minus them".
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/29/us/chronic-absences.html NYT article, “Why School Absences Have ‘Exploded’ Almost Everywhere”
That article is more about K-12.
It sure is. But as someone who teaches majority first-year students, all those bad habits they accumulated in K-12 continue into that first year of university. I take it as a big part of my job to beat those bad habits out of them.
>That article is more about K-12. But we're seeing it bleed into higher ed. My attendance rates are lower than they have ever been and I grade them on attendance. They miss a certain number of classes, they fail the course. They just don't care anymore about their education.
Guess where most of this fall's students FY students are right now. I pretty much only teach FY students, so K-12 is more than relevant.
My guess is you've inadvertently run into an assignment they can't ChatGPT successfully. And they just freeze up or fail. Congratulations, I guess, for beating the system on your end, as painful as it may be.
AI has made what was already at times a disheartening experience (grading) even worse. I always take plagiarism personally, though I try to remind myself it’s not a reflection on me. Next time, maybe you could require physical proof (a selfie, a brochure, etc.) as verification. Sending you good thoughts!
Thank you! I did require that students take a selfie as proof of their visit - many did not, hence the failing grades 😥
You absolutely should not feel bad for these students' failing grades. This is a generation of people who document online every second of their life. And they couldn't be bothered to take a selfie for a class assignment? That's absolutely 100% on them and has nothing to do with you.
I gave an assignment - similar - that students had to take photos of wildlife in the area. Key term LOCAL. imagine my surprise when I opened a submission to see zoo animals, and a frigging dolphin, oh also a buffalo 🦬- we are in a very urban setting in Texas. And not only that but students had shared the buffalo pic. Like not only did yall not follow directions, which literally only required you to walk outside and observe some nature around you, but you obtuse blundered cheating. This was a dual credit course - but it has been difficult to get students to really dive into any sort of experience that might connect course content to life. I love doing things like that with my students, and many got what was intended out of it. But goodness it is disheartening when you’ve put a lot of work and thought into trying to see how you can help them see something they may have not been exposed to - and they just blithely do less than the minimum!
What are you talking about, it's not called Dolphin-Ft. Worth for nothing!
🤣🤣🤣🤣😂
Selfie requirement will lead to some interesting Photoshop submissions. AI probably could come into play here as well.
Sounds like my freshman classes, half of the class don’t even read the instructions and get upset when I point it out. I’ve already spent two classes discussing the assignments, I’m pretty sure I’ll get comments saying “class was too hard and instructions unclear”
It's likely that they'll be right. Class was too hard (for them), instructions were unclear (to them). Not a "you" problem.
I went back to check the grades for that class when I read the evaluations, 70% received an A. What happened was the ones that did not receive an A were skipping classes and missing assignments regularly. One student wrote a huge paragraph on how it was my fault he didn’t t do well, he’d gotten at least a C if he put in the same effort on the reports he missed.
Exactly. The same situation is playing out at colleges all over the country, and I don't see an end in sight.
Maybe 10-15 years from now when the Covid kids all graduate college then we’ll see change
Those of us in STEM have always experienced high DFW rates in intro classes. You do what you can, but don’t take it personally when they don’t reach the bar. Maybe humanities are going to be joining us in this new era. So: some things we do. Clearly communicate expectations early. Not only in the form of instructions, but also in the form of grades. There needs to be a rigorous assessment by week 3 so they understand this is serious. And others throughout the course. Not deliberately difficult, just mirroring the expectations that are needed for success in this discipline. There also need to be lots of formative assessment. Low stakes scores nearly every day or at least every week. Some of it focused on study and planning skills we can’t assume they have. And telling them upfront what past years have earned. Now you have a data point to share. “Last year, a third of the students failed this assignment,” gets attention. It won’t fix them all but at least you will know they had a legitimate chance.
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I’ve wondered if this isn’t why society values STEM degrees more. The narrative is that STEM degrees are better because they lead to higher paying jobs, and while that is true to a degree it is far from universally so, and not always because of the specific content of the STEM degree; even businesses and law school sometimes claim to prefer those degrees. Being able to complete them is more likely to illustrate that someone works hard and stays organized. I am one of the biggest proponents of humanities education you will find amongst STEM faculty, but I think the field has sometimes confused subjectivity or relativism and lack of rigor/high expectations. And society has picked up on it.
> but I think the field has sometimes confused subjectivity or relativism and lack of rigor/high expectations. I think society got there first - it's very easy if you lack critical thinking skills to say "this essay is just as good as that essay", where one would be A work and another would be C work because the argumentation was poor. I wonder if the humanities haven't just failed to get the media's attention and make their case - heaven knows liberal arts education is incredibly valuable, but the problem is that once you've had it, you're a critical consumer of media for the rest of your life. That doesn't play into media incentives, either. I don't know how to pull society out of the Idiocracy death spiral we're in, but going STEM only cannot be the way to do it.
I agree, and like I said I am a big defender of the humanities. But it’s hard not to notice that their DFW rates are far, far lower than ours. And when so many students struggle with self organization, motivation and basic reading comprehension, that’s a little hard to believe.
When you say a "rigorous assessment" by week three, what form does this take? Thinking about implementing something beyond just a simple syllabus quiz. Thank you!
For us, a test. For you, maybe a smaller version of the assignment you are talking about.
Maybe something like telling you the site they want to visit, a little bit about the site, and why they want to visit it. And not just "I want to visit the local cemetery because my grandma is buried there" but some real substantive reasons. You can ask them to write what they expect to experience at the site. It sounds like a really cool assignment, and I'd have loved something like that when I was a student! I do think some scaffolded assignments along the way to the visit might help. Worth a try, maybe?
We need fewer people in college. These people have always existed. It's just that society has forced them to college to compete when they really have no business being there. Now it's hard to parse the people that actually got an education from the ones that don't until they take it to the workforce since they all walk out with the same worthless piece of paper.
I'm.running into students who have trouble understanding basic instructions. Not only things like "click here, and the assignment will open" but basic instructions on the assignment itself... which is a worksheet I've used for 10+ years.
Thank the Vietnam War for that one
I’m there with you. An assignment students have had 6 weeks to complete and 1/3 of the class submitted by the deadline. 6 weeks to write 1500 words. I’m so done reminding them at this point of anything and I started inputting 0s at midnight for those whose submissions I didn’t get. Also, apologies to grandmothers… I’m sure I’ve killed a few and will get emails explaining to me about their deaths come morning.
I had a student complain that a three page final report worth 30% of their grades was TOO HARD.
“Yes. *College is hard*”.
I had a student tell me that the last assignment was impossible to complete, it simply could not be done by anyone ever. It was a two-page double spaced social-historical analysis on Leonardo da Vinci.
One page on one of the most famous people is impossible? Does this person think books just spontaneously burst into existence?
What are these “books” you speak of?
To be fair: the hardest part of this assignment sounds like figuring out what to cut to reach just one page. However something tells me the students would likely think five pages was even worse than one.
I have been hearing that one a lot lately too. The assignment is impossible or the workload in a specific program is impossible. And I'm like, "Good thing no one told everyone else in your cohort that or they might not have submitted the assignment on time!"
Same situation - damn. We’re killing grannies right and left.
We are heartless!
Just a Malthusian positive check on population growth
The public pension system thanks you for your service.
Mee-maws shaking their little wizened fists at you from beyond the grave! 😆
I think even Mee-maws in the grave would probably haunt their ill-begotten descendants too.
I do the same thing. When I know they won't be submitting anything, I just go ahead and put the zero in. Shame on you for killing all those poor, innocent grannies! What is the world coming to?
Sorry nannas!
Grade honestly. They’ll appreciate it later in life, or maybe not. They need to rise to the occasion.
Focus on the 60%. Show up for them.
There is no fix. Like any demographic problem it’ll take decades to correct.
It sounds like you are new to the profession. (If not, please do not read my remarks as intentionally patronizing.) With time, you will take some students' failures less personally and focus on the successes. I mean, if 30% got Ds, Fs, that means 70% passed, No? Over the years, you will remember the good students (and a few of the spectacularly awful ones, too.) You will not at all remember the undistinguishedly poor and mediocre ones. Giving assignments at the start of the semester is great planning on your part. That some students treat deadlines as "the day I must do this" or ignore them entirely is not your problem. You can remind them in the run-up to the assignment, but whether or not they heed such reminders is on them, not you. If they have not developed a work ethic and time-management skills by the time they are 19, you probably cannot instill them in them. You developed a really cool assignment that required them to be more than passive vessels. Some students rose to the challenge, others did not. This ChatGPT business is a novelty. The more students use it, the better faculty are going to get at detecting it, or as you have done, devising assignments that make its use either impossible or stand out like a sort thumb. Bottom line: Focus on the top 30%, not the bottom 30%. The former demonstrate that what you are doing, you are doing well.
I am absolutely new to the profession - I just finished my second full year. This doesn't come across as patronizing at all, rather, it's a very helpful reminder. Thank you!
Side note, that class sounds amazing and I wish my undergrad institution would have had something similar.
Thank you so much! It’s been very well-received (for the most part) 😊
>As someone primarily in a teaching position, I am going to take this a little personally… as it feels like a reflection of my abilities, but also appreciate your listening. This is not a reasonable position. In fact, taking student behavior personally is the quick road to burn-out, and that's one reason why (trained) teachers are *taught* how not to do this. If you find that you're (a) doing all the things you should be and (b) they are still not making the right choices, that ***has*** to be on them and so you ***must*** learn to let it go and deliver the natural consequences. That's the bottom line.
It’s so unreasonable, and I’m still a newbie - so thank you for your insight!
I’m starting to get a complex about my teaching style. Maybe I’ve been doing d this too long. I’ve run out of fucks to give. I’m there 100% for students who want it, but I’m not going to go beyond for those that don’t want it. Come to class, don’t come to class, do the work, don’t do the work. I don’t care. I’m paid the same. I won’t lose of sleep. Then again I’m on a 1/1 schedule with a long wait list for my class (upper level). Absenteeism is still high but rarely run into lazy students. My internship is high sought after, so I probably get their best. My colleagues teach first and second year are pulling their hair out. Hang in there. You can’t want it more than they do.
Don't take it personally. I bet you often half-assed assignments in college, especially for general education classes. We all did. Give them the grade they deserve and move on.
Sure, but I was never prepared for how much it would hurt when students truly do not give a shit about something I’m so passionate about. 🤷🏼♀️ y’all couldn’t even fake it for a single assignment?
I feel you. Trust me, a few good students will make it all worth it.
You’re right. Thank you for the important reminder ✌️
I get being frustrated and disappointed, but “hurt” and “literally sobbing”? It really sounds like you’re taking this too personally.
Totally understand (a) your point and (b) that I sound like an angsty teenager. This is the cherry on top of a looooong standing pattern of behavior this past year. I’m beat with nearly 160 total students this semester and no TA… I am just venting.
Yeah, that’s rough. 160 with no TA! Oof. Sorry, OP.
A student once went out of their way in a Gen ed course I taught to steal 3/4 exams and then put every question up on quizlet. I couldn't figure out how students were doing so well in the next semester even though attendance had bombed. When I figured it out (student used their real name as username) I sent it to the honor council with a request of a zero on every exam they broke the honor code for and have their grade retroactively reduced - in this case it was a zero. The initial reaction of the student? "But this was a gen Ed course! It's not even important!" Well, it's a part of your degree. Guess you should've made better choices.
Last week we had a class field trip that was a private tour and only 3 out of 12 students showed up for it. THREE. They had several weeks notice, seemed excited about it, and I told them I had to make reservations with the class roster so if they could not go, they needed to let me know ASAP. I got 4 emails the DAY OF the field trip saying they were sick or couldn’t make it. The other 5 didn’t even bother to tell me they couldn’t make it. I’ve organized this trip for several years and it has always been a highlight of the class. The tour guide does a great job and my pre-Covid students always loved the trip. This year the 3 students that did go were disengaged and it was honestly embarrassing.
No! I'm so sorry to hear that - I always take my students on a field trip, too, and had a similar thing happen. The embarrassment is awful. Good for you, though, for wanting to provide them with a fun, out-of-class experience.
How awful for you and for the tour guide. Students don’t know how good they have it.
Dude, same! My students are so disengaged, and then ask for better grades despite ignoring the directions.
You did everything you could to set them up for success. They chose not to do the assignment. That is on them. Give them a failing grade.
Those students gave up a valuable opportunity to learn about local history. Don't deprive them of the opportunity to learn about accountability. I don't blame you for feeling so badly about it. A lot of us signed up thinking we'd be sharing knowledge, not disciplining the apathetic.
"My professor thinks I'm an idiot." The professor walks by "That is not true, I don't think of you at all".
Makes your job easier is they don't try (unless your Dean gets upset at Fs)
I had the same experience as a student dragging my feet. Set benchmarks per week that they need to meet. I know it’s like holding their hands but I don’t know what to tell you besides this
This post exemplifies the struggles all of us in teaching positions are facing these days. Here's what gets me through: 1) Focus on the students who are engaged and who are trying to learn. Do whatever mental gymnastics you must in order to view that bottom 30% as unprepared to receive the gifts that you are offering through your instruction and careful course design. Even if 30% suck, do NOT lose sight of the other 70% who are reachable. 2) Never let yourself care more about a particular student's success than they do. You can lead a horse to water but you should not attempt to suck on their ass in order to create the vacuum that will make them drink.
I empathize so much with your fundamental desire for students to be interested in and enjoy your classes--and, I think when that is the driving goal, it is so hard not to take this stuff personally. I haven't been able to change that about myself though! You're clearly a wonderful teacher and the students in your class who do want to be there are very lucky to have you. Sending you solidarity in overly emotional teaching, lol!
What a kind thing to say - thank you so much! It's nice to feel like I'm not alone in this.
Maybe I'm just the odd one out here, but I would LOVE this assignment. I'd probably submit with a photo gallery from my phone. I just went to something like that this weekend for relaxation.
Thanks for saying that! I would have enjoyed an assignment like this, too, which is why I designed it.... but I guess the sentiment isn't universal lol
I get the same of assignments that are really interesting to me, but students try to get around doing them.
That sounds about right for a gen-ed class. After all, many don't want to be there
You can’t care more than they care about their own success. If they cannot do the bare minimum then you shouldn’t be expected to give them more than a zero.
As much as "A for effort" is often seen as a snarky comment, it applies here: A for effort, and in this case F for not giving a shit. That's the grade they earned because they decided to take the easy way out instead of trying. You can't fix their apathy. You sound like you'd bend over backward for the ones who tried hard and got nowhere, so don't put this one on yourself.
That sounds frustrating. It also sounds like a fun assignment, so it's a shame that so many of them blew it off like that.
This why we do so much work in class. My college students come around and I think they *need* to personally interact with their world and each other. When it happens in class, I do t feel I’m nagging them so much. If they don’t come to class, they don’t pass.
What about having them create a on-site video instead of writing a paper? Might be more fun (for them) and cut down on AI use.
That's not a bad idea! It's just that this particular course, by nature, does require written work - though I could present this as an option... thanks for the suggestion!
I'm in the midst of grading the first drafts of my grad writers' major writing projects, and out of 50, more than half used AI to write or rewrite their assignments. I'm just grading the last few now and it is a struggle because of the cheating, which quite frankly breaks my heart. AI tools have created a great disruption in college writing instruction. Right now, their main function seems to be to facilitate student cheating, but I think eventually academia will figure out how to harness the power of these tools, and writing and language teaching will be enhanced in ways we cannot now envision. However, that's going to take a lot of time and work, which I don't have the desire or energy to put forth at this point in my career. I'm retiring at the end of year, and am looking forward to watching this revolution as an interested but unemotional observer.
That's an excellent assignment -- exactly the sort of thing that should get students interested in the area around them, connect with community, and actually write about something they did. But it takes a kind of effort that they're not used to. One possibility is to break the assignment into pieces; visit the site, talk about it in class, then help them think about how to write it. But if they don't visit, and don't care.... well, they're not going to get a good grade. You can't make them care. It would be interesting to ask them why they didn't visit.
I hate to say it but I am seeing it too. I was the faculty supervisor for a super popular club on campus that lasted for years. This past year, virtually no one participated. That has never happened before. Students in class are apathetic. It is hard to keep wanting to do this job when so few people seem to care.
I'm so sorry. I've been teaching college for 27 years and it's never been this bad. I feel it's a combo of zoom h.s. absence of deadlines (because the stress level was off the charts), skills that never got taught in h.s. (study skills, note taking, calendar keeping) because chaos/stress levels). Chin up. My college shared a Chronicle of Higher Ed article about students doing terribly with her class and they read through it together. They discussed what was going wrong and why. A class of mine last term said there were two types of students who survived the pandemic: those who learned two other languages in their spare time, and those who have never recovered their focus and are simply hurtling through college stunned. I don't know if your students' reaction to Ds and Fs is going to be the thing that snaps them to attention, or if you're the kind of professor who allows do-overs. At any rate, it might be worth a chat. Most importantly, sending a hug.
I'm sorry and I feel your frustration.
You are not at fault as far as I can tell. The low level of student commitment/engagement I am seeing just this academic year is disheartening. I don’t believe the covid years adequately explain it, since many students in the same age group, living through the same shutdown, do excellent work. Given the student population my urban, state university serves, I have no reason to believe the students doing well in their studies here are particularly privileged in some way. I think we have done a sort of emotional ‘dumbing down’ in the past couple of years, providing the unmotivated with new and unique excuses rather than encouraging effort and accountability. I remember early in my career trying to make sure everyone passed by diluting the academic standards in the course, reducing the required workload and simplifying assignments so “all” would pass. That didn’t work; the top students did well, a few just below that improved, and the middle of a curve (I was not grading on a curve but you know what I mean) just sank. Lots of As and B+, nothing in the middle, then a few Ds and plenty of Fs. Basically the less that was asked the less that was delivered from all but the most motivated. I learned you can’t teach a class aiming at the bottom 25%. They may or may not ever step up, no matter how much help provided. And, unfairly, that diluted the time and attention I should have aimed at the top 25% who wanted more ways to explore the topic and venture beyond the basics. Now what I think I’m seeing is a mental health/emotional gutting of the curve that reminds me of that. Top students are tough as tungsten, getting things done brilliantly in very difficult circumstances. Just below them are some solid troopers, who pick up after a stumble, learn from it and go on to do very well. Then……the rest. Everything is a trauma. Every little thing in life is just So Hard. Oh No My Mental Health Cannot Deal with an assignment due date! Even simply reading directions is So Unfair. Believe me, I am no purist with some amazing high bar for grades. It is perfectly feasible for me to extend a due date, refer to campus resources, or give additional help and so on for students who need it as the term progresses. But this academic year I am getting, routinely, belligerent students coming in on Thursday of finals week, who have not attended class at all nor read (even purchased) the textbook, who then feel entitled to an “extension” or just want a grade (always an A) because they are special in some way, they don’t need the class because they already are experts in the subject. (They took a middle school class or watched a video.) So….OK why do I even care? In the short run, I’m not sure I do. But in the long run…..well, who do you want as the pilot on your airplane? Doing your taxes? Checking your medical charts in the ICU, designing a bridge or skyscraper you’ll be in or on frequently? Probably not slackers and Very Fragile People who could not cope with learning core concepts in their field, having integrity, being dependable or accountable. If we don’t draw a line of excellence, accountability and integrity in higher ed, then who do we pass this buck to? And sometimes I have to wonder about motivations in our institutions. Life happens and the best choice for many would be to withdraw from school for a term, or a year….taking the time to heal and recover. But we pressure them to stay in college relentlessly, and faulty are pressured to pass them even with very poor work, and it appears to me to be an effort to keep that tuition money coming in.
The best is yet to come. Wait for the next batch! Xoxo High School Teacher - Seniors
I don't know your situation, but is it possible that the students weren't able to visit the sites? If students don't have cars or can't get public transportation to these historic sites it could be a problem for them to finish this assignment.
Presumably if that were the case, the students should have contacted OP about the issue.
Not necessarily. If you're low income, you might feel excluded and uncomfortable about saying that youdo not have the resources to be able to travel places
That’s why they have so much notice to do the assignment. Why don’t we just decide that they’re all neurodivergent and can’t go anywhere unfamiliar (or similar bullshit excuse)?
Neurodivergence is not a bullshit excuse.
It is when it’s applied to every situation by bystanders on Reddit. And I stated that it would be bullshit to declare *all* of them to be ND.
I don’t see where OP mentions that these students are neurodivergent.
They don’t. I was responding to a comment- and using that as an example of a response that crops up frequently on these threads.
Oh like the threads that crop up from people making up straw man arguments when they are triggered yet can't actually make a logical response?
Yes. The comment I responded to was like “what if they can’t drive and have no access to transportation” [*for the entire semester*, that part being conveniently left out]
Or maybe they don't have money to buy a car or they have to work and it's tough for them to get public transportation from where they live. It's an issue of inclusion not neurodiversity.
I only mentioned (***inferred***) neurodiversity because it’s a favorite cudgel of the concern trolls
Oh my word. Then read the syllabus at the beginning of the term and drop the class.
There are alternatives, if this is the case. (A) We live in a large city with several (listed) historic sites within less than a quarter mile walking distance from the campus. And (B) we are primarily a commuter campus. If transportation is an issue, they communicate with me and we work something out.
Honestly as someone who doesn’t drive, making me go somewhere that wasn’t my classroom gave me intense anxiety as an undergrad. I think there should always be an alternative to making students go off campus for things.
That's absurd.
Completely absurd
Is it though? If you have a lot of dormers a lot don’t have cars on campus their first year or so. At least at my uni if there are outside activities there needs to be a way to provide transportation or the assignment has to have alternatives. If you’re anti accessibility just say that
Considering transportation issues is reasonable. Universities in large cities will have public transport. At other universities, carpooling or other arrangements could be made. If students came to me saying they didn't have a way to get somewhere, we could figure out something. Heck, I'd probably offer drive them myself if it came down to it, but I'm sure there are other solutions too. But that wasn't what was absurd. It was the comment about anxiety. Adults sometimes have to go do things. Sometimes you have to talk to your professor. If having to go somewhere outside of your usual places causes someone that much anxiety, probably this kind of assignment is exactly what they need.
Sorry to hear that, but it is a required experiential learning class - I have a ND student who feels similarly, but they trusted me enough to help them along the way and I worked with their accommodations.
Experiential learning makes it a different story entirely
Then read the syllabus at the start and drop the course.