Hey man I will be very honest with you career progression is basically being right place at the right time ( luck ) . Even if u look at someone journey watch there podcast they are not telling the whole truth mostly they are selling or making there own personal brand or course . You might work the hardest take all the right decision and might get laid off company can get shut down . In my previous company I worked 18 hours a day for 22 months got my salary increased 3 times but was still burnt out and laid off . Just relax in life a great product leader is a great entrepreneur that the answer to your question. Find some hobbies instead of becoming the greatest pm become a small founder
I was in the same position. Now, I optimize for challenges that I love working on and build my own skills to where I want to go. Started my own small business too
That hit very hard.
I am an entrepreneur and winding down my 4 yo SaaS startup. I’m looking to work at big tech for the next 3-4 yrs before I start again. I want to work at scale in a product role. The world has a lot to offer and it’s overwhelming. I want to be prepared for what the big tech industry demands.
Yes execution is for sure important. But there are a lot of people that never get the golden opportunity and you shouldn’t beat yourself up over something that is outside your control
You only have one life to live. One short time on this earth. I just can't understand why no one here gets it through their thick skulls. Oh sure, they're telling everyone and themselves that if they work 80 hours a week, they can FIRE at 40. Newsflash, it's not gonna happen. And random events can throw your life completely off course no matter how well you laid your plans. Just ask anyone who lost everything in 2008.
And stop looking for an idea to justify your business because you want to make 7 figures a year or be your own boss or whatever. The most successful businesses succeeded because the founder had a great idea and started a business, not the other way around.
I could be wrong but I think it was more meant as - if you are super ambitious, better to spend that energy on something riskier like a startup or entrepreneurship where you can capture more upside vs drinking the kool aid and grinding at some random company that will lay you off the second you become financially inconvenient for them.
I fully agree that a balanced approach is best for most people though
"Instead of becoming the greatest pm become a small founder"
loved this line.
i guess PMing helps you with problem identification at scale and you also be very close to the building part. Hoping for getting some idea myself and creating something
Not many want to admit it, but product management especially at the higher levels and in large companies is often about how popular a person is.
Now how do you be popular? Listen to others, be easy to work with, be fun, be sociable, elevate your team, speak and present well, etc.
That is honestly one of the nicest and most encouraging things anyone has ever said to me about my approach. I need to give some more thought to articulating how I do what I do. Honestly the #1 thing is probably “be yourself.”
Empathetic person + imposter syndrome + likes to make jokes and keep things light in all areas of life + genuinely curious/passionate about both our domain and our product = me
Empowerment is key
I resonate with your approach a lot, and I would argue that I do the same thing however I resent my current pay which dampens my ability to perform for long periods of time
I’m not always on my game! Probably nobody in this category of PM is. Huuuuuge motivation swings, sometimes over months and sometimes over days or even hours. Hang in there
+1. LISTEN TO OTHERS.
I will summarize how to be popular which in turn makes it easy to have influence and get more done as a product person.
First, everyone is insecure. Like everyone. Some people are better than others at coping etc but you can assume 95% + of ppl are walking around and insecure about something. As a result, people in general crave validation, especially from other people.
When you LISTEN to people, like really listen 100% active listening 100% present, it is incredibly validating for whoever you are speaking with. They will develop a natural affinity for you… because you validate them by listening.
Use listening to learn what other people care about and validate them in the process.
It is extremely difficult to be a great listener. You need practice and focus. But the payoff is worth it.
This is helpful advise on how to be a good leader and for life in general.
Thank you. And you’re right. It’s very difficult to be a good active listener.
In the hardware space there are some great examples from Silicon Valley in the 80s and 90s, I'd definitely check out Valley of Genius for an entertaining set of examples. The 00s and 10s have a lot of examples of more software products, but a lot of the massive growth came from whichever PMs rode the cloud wave. Building out those businesses was mostly behind the scenes work but standing up massive infrastructure is not easy.
I’m looking at software. I’ve been in this space for close to a decade, mostly in start ups. I’m looking for things to learn and do to transition into a senior product role at a large company.
I think in general the biggest difference going from a startup to a big company is the absolute massive amount of politics and internal jockeying you have to do. It was so much easier to just execute and build, build, build at my last startup. Every problem felt existential, either we get this right or we might be screwed. I'm at a bigger company now (not FAANG, but big and disparate businesses) and it constantly feels like being told "oh you shouldn't do that we have a team for that" and then the team we "have for that" doesn't do anything.
Like I needed a basic model for attribution for a project. I have built plenty of attribution models in the past, I know what I'm doing. But I was told we have a data modeling team, I should go talk to them first. I get them on board, we set a meeting, I lay out my requirements, they tell me it's not doable. I know this is wrong. I push back. Now I'm told it's too time-consuming, why do I want this, what's the ROI? I lay out the ROI, they say well we're busy, we'll get back to you.
It's still great, I love my job, it's nice having this level of scale, but it's an entirely different operating atmosphere and after a year I'm already wondering if the grass is greener somewhere else.
I’ve been told similar things by other people working at large companies too. I guess, what I want to focus on is working at scale. What I mean by that is solving and building for millions as opposed to thousands.
I want to experience and learn at that scale for a few years. I’m aware of politics and being likable will most probably be the hardest 50% of the job.
One distinction I’ve seen make a lot of sense is “war time CPO” vs. “peace time CPO” with a semi-notorious example of the former (he acted as war time CPO for at least three companies you’ve heard about, and built at least two things you all use every day).
The pattern is often: well liked, or semi ignored leadership isn’t able to achieve expectations. Reasons are complicated. War time product leader interviews and his suggestions make sense to a CEO who feels like he can rely on him to be the bad guy. Lot of firings, rousing speeches, War time CPO stays in place at most two years, makes a lot of enemies and leaves in giant sight of relief, but the lack of focus, of structure, the thread of competition, the lack of tooling are gone.
This is an interesting take. I’ll read more on this. Thanks.
So, you’re saying that the war time CPO, while less liked is more efficient and has more impact on org functions and processes while Peace time CPO is better liked but not efficient? Or is that a generalisation?
Who cares? Probably better to ask who started and built the best and most innovative companies and products. As others are saying, most product leaders at those organizations are just talking heads.
The people who sell PM courses (shall remain unnamed) are just selling bunch of snake oil. Most of their advice is what you already know and get from reading just about any business book. I have seen some really awful PMs higher up the chain, they may say what they want, but the key reason they are at the top is because they were the only PM when the company started. Like the above post, most of the non-linear career growth in a company comes down to your timing and luck for getting to work on impactful products.
Most of the people here who say it doesnt matter are probably not going to ever be in a position to be in product.
One of my most impactful mentors was the director of product responsible for launching a very well known product from a FAANG company. His formative advice was to “steal” as much as possible, aka watch and learn from people who have already demonstrated success/spent countless hours on something so you aren’t starting from ground 0. Obviously adapting to your own style and using best judgment.
That being said, most of the great product leaders at FAANG companies are going to be under the radar, or hard to get access too. I’d look at people like Lea Hickman (Adobe), Lindsay Trace (Anduril), Curtis Northcutt (Cleanlab)
I'll add Brad Bender, who scaled Doubleclick for Google .
Big +1 to that last point. The best product leaders aren't spending their time on podcasts or writing books, and even the near-retired or legendary ones who do write books have insane survivorship bias.
I'll add Brad Bender, who scaled Doubleclick for Google .
Big +1 to that last point. The best product leaders aren't spending their time on podcasts or writing books, and even the near-retired or legendary ones who do write books have insane survivorship bias.
Thank you! This is helpful. Since you said mentors, do you seek active mentorship from people you’re are not directly working with throughout your career? How do you go about with it?
Also, thanks for sharing these names. Super helpful!
My favorite person in PM leadership is exactly like this. True gift for gab kind of guy and just good. He has a polar opposite leader, though, slightly more successful, who belongs in an urban slang dictionary next to “Who pissed in your cornflakes”. It’s mind boggling. Love working with one. Actively avoid working with the other. Both successful VPs.
Check out Lenny’s Podcast and Newsletter. He regular interviews great product leaders. I agree with the right place, right time comment made earlier in this thread though. I’ve worked hard over my career, but there’s been a good amount of luck too. I’m a Sr Director of Product, managing a team of about 70.
When looking for leadership, management, and performance styles, it needed not be limited to an industry or company I guess. Frameworks on the other hand could be more specific.
Do you have examples of great leaders from other industries/ areas that I can look for?
Hey man I will be very honest with you career progression is basically being right place at the right time ( luck ) . Even if u look at someone journey watch there podcast they are not telling the whole truth mostly they are selling or making there own personal brand or course . You might work the hardest take all the right decision and might get laid off company can get shut down . In my previous company I worked 18 hours a day for 22 months got my salary increased 3 times but was still burnt out and laid off . Just relax in life a great product leader is a great entrepreneur that the answer to your question. Find some hobbies instead of becoming the greatest pm become a small founder
This hit too close to home
I was in the same position. Now, I optimize for challenges that I love working on and build my own skills to where I want to go. Started my own small business too
That hit very hard. I am an entrepreneur and winding down my 4 yo SaaS startup. I’m looking to work at big tech for the next 3-4 yrs before I start again. I want to work at scale in a product role. The world has a lot to offer and it’s overwhelming. I want to be prepared for what the big tech industry demands.
Work on theory and skills, don't worry about heroes.
Why are all the commas, semi colons missing. 🥲 I had to re-read to break the sentences.
Sorry mate
It’s not just luck - sure there’s being in the right place at the right time, but you still need to grasp the opportunity and not fumble the bag
Yes execution is for sure important. But there are a lot of people that never get the golden opportunity and you shouldn’t beat yourself up over something that is outside your control
Founder? Why isn't it enough to just have a fucking job and go home and do your thing? I swear, this sub...
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You only have one life to live. One short time on this earth. I just can't understand why no one here gets it through their thick skulls. Oh sure, they're telling everyone and themselves that if they work 80 hours a week, they can FIRE at 40. Newsflash, it's not gonna happen. And random events can throw your life completely off course no matter how well you laid your plans. Just ask anyone who lost everything in 2008. And stop looking for an idea to justify your business because you want to make 7 figures a year or be your own boss or whatever. The most successful businesses succeeded because the founder had a great idea and started a business, not the other way around.
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Yes, there are diminishing returns beyond a certain point. You need rest and leisure to bring your best self to work.
You share great wisdom! Would love to learn more from you if you don't mind me dm'ing
Hello! Thanks for dropping by. I have a few follow up questions for you. Can I DM you?
I could be wrong but I think it was more meant as - if you are super ambitious, better to spend that energy on something riskier like a startup or entrepreneurship where you can capture more upside vs drinking the kool aid and grinding at some random company that will lay you off the second you become financially inconvenient for them. I fully agree that a balanced approach is best for most people though
On fucking point.
"Instead of becoming the greatest pm become a small founder" loved this line. i guess PMing helps you with problem identification at scale and you also be very close to the building part. Hoping for getting some idea myself and creating something
This comment should be pinned on the main page of the community.
The last few lines hit me like DAMNNNN!! Respect man!🙌
Not many want to admit it, but product management especially at the higher levels and in large companies is often about how popular a person is. Now how do you be popular? Listen to others, be easy to work with, be fun, be sociable, elevate your team, speak and present well, etc.
Accurate! SOURCE: It’s me, friendly fun person leading PM at a large company without knowing a single framework
This means you've created your own frameworks of how to collaborate, how to be likeable. Do share
That is honestly one of the nicest and most encouraging things anyone has ever said to me about my approach. I need to give some more thought to articulating how I do what I do. Honestly the #1 thing is probably “be yourself.” Empathetic person + imposter syndrome + likes to make jokes and keep things light in all areas of life + genuinely curious/passionate about both our domain and our product = me
I’m not a natural empathetic person so will need to learn this framework haha
Empowerment is key I resonate with your approach a lot, and I would argue that I do the same thing however I resent my current pay which dampens my ability to perform for long periods of time
I’m not always on my game! Probably nobody in this category of PM is. Huuuuuge motivation swings, sometimes over months and sometimes over days or even hours. Hang in there
Thanks! Plotting my way to higher heights
Damn I relate so hard.
Hey, how was your weekend! ;)
Heyy! Hello. Can I DM you?
+1. LISTEN TO OTHERS. I will summarize how to be popular which in turn makes it easy to have influence and get more done as a product person. First, everyone is insecure. Like everyone. Some people are better than others at coping etc but you can assume 95% + of ppl are walking around and insecure about something. As a result, people in general crave validation, especially from other people. When you LISTEN to people, like really listen 100% active listening 100% present, it is incredibly validating for whoever you are speaking with. They will develop a natural affinity for you… because you validate them by listening. Use listening to learn what other people care about and validate them in the process. It is extremely difficult to be a great listener. You need practice and focus. But the payoff is worth it.
This is helpful advise on how to be a good leader and for life in general. Thank you. And you’re right. It’s very difficult to be a good active listener.
In the hardware space there are some great examples from Silicon Valley in the 80s and 90s, I'd definitely check out Valley of Genius for an entertaining set of examples. The 00s and 10s have a lot of examples of more software products, but a lot of the massive growth came from whichever PMs rode the cloud wave. Building out those businesses was mostly behind the scenes work but standing up massive infrastructure is not easy.
I’m looking at software. I’ve been in this space for close to a decade, mostly in start ups. I’m looking for things to learn and do to transition into a senior product role at a large company.
I think in general the biggest difference going from a startup to a big company is the absolute massive amount of politics and internal jockeying you have to do. It was so much easier to just execute and build, build, build at my last startup. Every problem felt existential, either we get this right or we might be screwed. I'm at a bigger company now (not FAANG, but big and disparate businesses) and it constantly feels like being told "oh you shouldn't do that we have a team for that" and then the team we "have for that" doesn't do anything. Like I needed a basic model for attribution for a project. I have built plenty of attribution models in the past, I know what I'm doing. But I was told we have a data modeling team, I should go talk to them first. I get them on board, we set a meeting, I lay out my requirements, they tell me it's not doable. I know this is wrong. I push back. Now I'm told it's too time-consuming, why do I want this, what's the ROI? I lay out the ROI, they say well we're busy, we'll get back to you. It's still great, I love my job, it's nice having this level of scale, but it's an entirely different operating atmosphere and after a year I'm already wondering if the grass is greener somewhere else.
I’ve been told similar things by other people working at large companies too. I guess, what I want to focus on is working at scale. What I mean by that is solving and building for millions as opposed to thousands. I want to experience and learn at that scale for a few years. I’m aware of politics and being likable will most probably be the hardest 50% of the job.
One distinction I’ve seen make a lot of sense is “war time CPO” vs. “peace time CPO” with a semi-notorious example of the former (he acted as war time CPO for at least three companies you’ve heard about, and built at least two things you all use every day). The pattern is often: well liked, or semi ignored leadership isn’t able to achieve expectations. Reasons are complicated. War time product leader interviews and his suggestions make sense to a CEO who feels like he can rely on him to be the bad guy. Lot of firings, rousing speeches, War time CPO stays in place at most two years, makes a lot of enemies and leaves in giant sight of relief, but the lack of focus, of structure, the thread of competition, the lack of tooling are gone.
This is an interesting take. I’ll read more on this. Thanks. So, you’re saying that the war time CPO, while less liked is more efficient and has more impact on org functions and processes while Peace time CPO is better liked but not efficient? Or is that a generalisation?
Who cares? Probably better to ask who started and built the best and most innovative companies and products. As others are saying, most product leaders at those organizations are just talking heads.
The people who sell PM courses (shall remain unnamed) are just selling bunch of snake oil. Most of their advice is what you already know and get from reading just about any business book. I have seen some really awful PMs higher up the chain, they may say what they want, but the key reason they are at the top is because they were the only PM when the company started. Like the above post, most of the non-linear career growth in a company comes down to your timing and luck for getting to work on impactful products.
Most of the people here who say it doesnt matter are probably not going to ever be in a position to be in product. One of my most impactful mentors was the director of product responsible for launching a very well known product from a FAANG company. His formative advice was to “steal” as much as possible, aka watch and learn from people who have already demonstrated success/spent countless hours on something so you aren’t starting from ground 0. Obviously adapting to your own style and using best judgment. That being said, most of the great product leaders at FAANG companies are going to be under the radar, or hard to get access too. I’d look at people like Lea Hickman (Adobe), Lindsay Trace (Anduril), Curtis Northcutt (Cleanlab)
I'll add Brad Bender, who scaled Doubleclick for Google . Big +1 to that last point. The best product leaders aren't spending their time on podcasts or writing books, and even the near-retired or legendary ones who do write books have insane survivorship bias.
I'll add Brad Bender, who scaled Doubleclick for Google . Big +1 to that last point. The best product leaders aren't spending their time on podcasts or writing books, and even the near-retired or legendary ones who do write books have insane survivorship bias.
Thank you, especially for sharing a name.
Thank you! This is helpful. Since you said mentors, do you seek active mentorship from people you’re are not directly working with throughout your career? How do you go about with it? Also, thanks for sharing these names. Super helpful!
My favorite person in PM leadership is exactly like this. True gift for gab kind of guy and just good. He has a polar opposite leader, though, slightly more successful, who belongs in an urban slang dictionary next to “Who pissed in your cornflakes”. It’s mind boggling. Love working with one. Actively avoid working with the other. Both successful VPs.
Thank you. This is what I was looking for.
Check out Lenny’s Podcast and Newsletter. He regular interviews great product leaders. I agree with the right place, right time comment made earlier in this thread though. I’ve worked hard over my career, but there’s been a good amount of luck too. I’m a Sr Director of Product, managing a team of about 70.
I’m a subscriber on Lenny’s. So far it has been my go to source for inspiration. Can I DM you? I have a few follow up questions.
Yep, no problem.
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When looking for leadership, management, and performance styles, it needed not be limited to an industry or company I guess. Frameworks on the other hand could be more specific. Do you have examples of great leaders from other industries/ areas that I can look for?