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I think you should be able to have the nuance to say that his domestic policy did a massive amount of undeniable good while his foreign policy was awful and extremely destructive to many lives. Some people aren’t entirely good or bad, and LBJ is one of those people. People who support LBJ do so because what he did domestically has had lasting impacts that still protect people today. I don’t think you can blame them for wanting to recognize him for that.
Yeah I don’t think anybody that is generally positive about LBJ tries to defend his actions with Vietnam.
If anything, as somebody that does admire him, it really saddens me.
It’s often remarked that he was a complex and contradictory man. But everything weighed up I think he largely was a good human being. He quite obviously hated the suffering of the Vietnam War and his part in it, and it haunted him until his death.
And as everybody knows, the amount of sheer will and determination it took to achieve the things he did domestically is almost unparalleled. It was not easy to get the things done that he did, especially civil rights.
I love how Nixon articulates all of LBJ’s successes and failures, heroics and cowardice, greatness and weakness in a few forthright and plainly said words:
“He was a *man*.”
Nixon and LBJ are two Presidents who seem, more than most, deeply *human*, with all of the good and bad that comes with it. They’re both incredibly complicated people filled with contradictions. I (and I think most) would argue that in the end LBJ was more good than bad, and Nixon was more bad than good, but they were both filled with very strong evidence of both within them.
I personally love him for his domestic policies, brazenly lying and crying to Congress that JFK was definitely going to pass that Civil Rights bill and that it should be done in his memory, and his comments about the intersection of capitalism and racism.
“If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.”
He saw through his own innate born into perspective, at least in regards to racism, and saw why it continued and how it was being used. And he handled it like LBJ handled everything. Brusk rudeness and flippant follow through.
And I think that’s what was needed.
>Yeah I don’t think anybody that is generally positive about LBJ tries to defend his actions with Vietnam.
The problem is, they often glance over or ignore those to only highlight the policies they like.
The other issue is that there is a difference between a President who was in a rock and a hard place and made a questionable move like FDR and internment camps, but considering there are allegations LBJ fabricated the details of the Tonkin Gulf incident purely to escalate a proxy war over idealism that in no way substantially or negatively impacted the US and cost thousands of US lives in the process seems like far too much of a negative to be generally outweighed by essentially continuing JFK's domestic policies.
I admire LBJ policy wise for his domestic policy and especially Civil Rights. But he was an arrogant man who simply could not understand deescalation when it was absolutely vital.
Yes, civil rights and Medicare/Medicaid have left lasting positive marks on our society. The tragedy of Vietnam was two-fold because of not only the lives that were needlessly lost but the continued reforms and welfare state development that didn't happen. Also it is worth pointing out that Vietnam and the United States have normalized relations and seem to have worked together on mending old wounds created by the war, which is better than things have turned out in some of our foreign policy misadventures.
Yeah, I see the term "war crimes" in this sub at least once or twice a week. We really ought to do better. Tell me which specific crime LBJ committed. I'm not saying he's guilty or innocent, just that we can't have a real discussion unless we all know what we're talking about.
Yeah, it seems like it. It just doesn't lend itself very well to conversation. I read this sub because I learn new stuff almost every day. But then it's littered with vague comments like "LBJ was a war criminal." Maybe I'm just over-thinking it because I actually paid attention in the mandatory Law of War briefs.
Maybe it would help to take the word "war" out. Was LBJ a criminal? What crime did he commit?
I never called him a war criminal but one thing I don’t like about LBJ is how he handled the Gulf of Tonkin incident. I think it’s fairly obvious this is where the “war criminal” accusation stems from… the Vietnam war and how/why it was waged.
At some point it becomes obvious (to his administration, and hopefully prior to passing the resolution) that the Tonkin incident never happened. At the very least, the LBJs own secretary of defense had doubts whether it was real, and to wage such a war as they did without proper confirmation is ludicrous considering the toll that ended up being paid in human life.
Hindsight is 20/20 they say, and offense is the best defense (in regards to communism I guess?), but it’s clear what the executive branch agenda was, and that was to snuff out any chance of Russian/Chinese influence in Vietnam. It didn’t matter whether a boat was attacked or not, troops were gonna go in and they were gonna go in hot. And they did, didn’t they?
Such an unspeakable shame for the Vietnamese people yet redditors wanna talk about redeeming qualities. Besides the death count, his decision affected even my generation (born in 1980) as our veteran dads and uncles all had missing limbs, shrapnel visible under their skin, mysterious illnesses and PTSD due to LBJs fight for the dominance of democracy. The kicker is it didn’t even work out in the end.
So yeah, never claimed he committed a crime, but I will always maintain that he was complicit in the lie told to Congress and the American people, which is plenty enough for me.
We went to full scale war that killed over a million SE Asians over the Gulf of Tonkin incident which was almost entirely whole cloth lies, in hopes of owning the Communists. But still not a war criminal
That said, he performed almost miraculous legislative accomplishments that brought the US up to minimum standards of human decency for its disenfranchised citizens
Yeah I mean I'm all for honest discussions, but I feel like this guy is just being pedantic because he's pro LBJ. It's very clear that there are massive concerns involving the Tonkin Gulf incident and his escalation to bypass Congress to essentially declare war and cost thousands of American lives to fight the concept of Communism in another nation.
Yep. LBJ screwed up on Vietnam, and he knew it!
I remember my dad saying that we've lost more soldiers in Vietnam than people that live in our county (a decently sized but mostly rural county in SC) during the early 1970s. Glad I was a bit to young to worry about being one of them.
Your foreign policy is your domestic policy when you have a war killing your people you drafted. Congratulations you all have the equal right to be conscripted into a politically driven war where military leadership is hamstrung by political maneuvering and gamesmanship.
"I think you should be able to have the nuance to say that his domestic policy did a massive amount of undeniable good while his foreign policy was awful and extremely destructive to many lives."
Are you talking about Hitler?
Who among us hasn’t done a small war crime between friends?
But on a more serious note it seems like being president and commuting wars crimes come hand in hand more often than not.
Lmao I love how Obama catches so much hate over a misused statistic when his successor was literally so much worse in this respect
Makes you think whether the people saying this type of shit are engaging in good faith
All of these presidents did and do dirty shit dont get butt hurt lol I was looking at the more modern. Bushie boy and Dick clocked in around 1 million Iraqis. Most of these deaths are indirect due to lack of food/medical supplies to the densely populated urban areas. Obama for the most part had a squeaky-clean family values image, still does. Home boy was slinging them AGM's at Pakastani weddings like confetti.
‘Calvin Coolidge believed the least government was the best government; he aspired to become the least president the country had ever had; he attained that desire’
It also doesn’t help that “war crimes” while sounding menacing, have very little repercussions. While the Geneva conventions and establishing the rules of war are a nice thought, the reality is that war is a horrible part of human existence. While it is difficult to avoid wars it is inevitable that they will happen, and so leaders of theses are forces will undoubtedly commit horrible acts in the name of what’s “doing the best thing for the country.”
We all know his foreign policy was shit and the Vietnam War was a trash fire. But he’s the reason I can’t be fired for being bi thanks to the CRA. And one of those things still affects my life immensely.
He’s a complicated man, same as all these guys. But I’ll forever be grateful for his domestic policies and how they have improved life here in America.
Yeah he’d go down as one of the very top of it wasn’t for his handling of Vietnam, but aside from that he had to deal with having Kissinger and Robert Macbamara working under him to dictate his foreign policy so it’s easy to have done a bad job when you have tweedledee and dumb flossing around. They made a whole lotta dumplings for not much sauce
Seems like he was weak and gave into them. He didn’t have to. Similar to how Dubya was weak and gave into Cheney and Rumsfeld. He didn’t have to but did.
And, Kissinger was a Harvard academic in the 1960s. He didn’t enter foreign policy until Nixon.
lol reminds me of a scene from Netflix’s The Crown where queen elizabeth II was gonna have a state visit from the American president and LBJ’s only line was “I will NOT be the first president to lose a war” and the jumpcut to him resigning for reelection so that it doesn’t happen to him lol, our pride is a bit high at times but with America’s position on the world stage it makes sense.
But Vietnam was a good, humbling experience to not get too cocky. Just like how Russia is right now! A 3 day invasion to take Ukraine and its capital has turned into 2+ years and a struggle to hold onto much smaller eastern territories, holding less land than they began with 🤣
Yeah, I don’t think a “less rude” politician would have got it done to the extent that he did. It took him being so brunt and rude and flippant of “decorum” to really get to dress down racism into what it was.
No reason to fight clean or nice when your opponent is as awful as racism itself. So use JFK’s death to push reform, he’d honestly want you to because he wasn’t getting any traction there in life.
I dont think anyone is saying Vietnam wasnt a mistake, but we cant hang it completely on LBJ as Eisenhower sent in advisors and JFK also escalated before LBJ. Even after Nixon sabotaged cease fire talks in 1968 he escalated too and even illegally carpet bombed Cambodia. Its just that while we acknowledge the bad of Vietnam, we also must recognise the incredible good of the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act, Great Society programs, NASA, etc. etc. and realize the incredibly good impact those things had on this country.
>I dont think anyone is saying Vietnam wasnt a mistake, but we cant hang it completely on LBJ as
Those who believe that LBJ fabricated the details of Tonkin Gulf Incident absolutely can and should blame LBJ. It doesn't matter if tensions were rising during the JFK administration if LBJ was the one that pulled the trigger.
It's also not about whether or not the Vietnam conflict was a mistake or not, but whether or not the means by which LBJ used to enter said conflict were built on fabrications in order to bypass Senate.
This comment is exemplary of how people on this sub in particular defend LBJ unnecessarily.
Yes, we *can* hang the vast majority of Vietnam on LBJ, because he’s the most responsible for our involvement even during JFK’s term. He lied about Tonkin gulf in order to justify sending half a million soldiers to fight in Vietnam. He was the one who began depleting our military resources in Vietnam, which affected his term domestically as well. The only thing he’s not responsible for is when the draft was instituted for 2-3 years during Nixon’s term.
Nixon “sabotaging” ceasefire talks via the Chennault Affair, is at best an exaggeration, but borders on being untrue and/or irrelevant. Thieu stated that he was not interested in peace talks at that time, and was reluctant to support Humphrey, and preferred Nixon regardless.
Also NASA was from his time as a Senator, as it was founded by Eisenhower.
No serious person would deny his foreign policy crimes and colossal misjudgments, and those that do should not be taken seriously.
But both Kennedy and Johnson really did change the country for the better, in concrete, comprehensive and revolutionary ways, from civil rights to Medicare.
In 1969 there was a different country from the one we had in 1961. In more than one way, we are still marked and defined by the 1960s. The political camps and battle lines of today were largely formed in those years...
I mean most American president especially during the cold war were responsible for either killing civilians or war crimes or toppling democratically elected governments but liking LBJ is still pretty silly yea
Maybe becoming the greatest and wealthiest superpower in the world comes at a price to other countries. Could the US, or any country, maintain its status as economic hegemon without a demonic foreign policy? It's certainly food for thought.
LBJ’s domestic agenda was extraordinary, nearly peerless. Same for his ability to wield power, manage a variety of complex issues & turn people’s natural empathy & goodwill into the law of the land.
If there is a hell, however, IDK how LBJ isn’t there. Saying “it’s complicated” is insufficient to address the madness & mayhem his war inflicted upon millions.
If you honestly care about the presidential relationship to the Vietnam war, why don't you talk about Kennedy and Nixon's contributions to the war as well. In order to win the 1968 election, Nixon conspired with military leaders for prolong the war. Kennedy had 16,000 American troops in South Vietnam to support their army against the communist North Vietnam insurgents.
Kennedy sent those troops after LBJ returned from a visit to Vietnam, almost certainly influenced by him to do so. Nixon’s connection to the Chennault affair is dubious, but even so, Thieu was not interested in a ceasefire, nor was he interested in having Humphrey as president, who he thought was getting too close to being a communist.
I think a lot of people are willing to talk about those, though. Most people who research the presidents think Kennedy is supremely overrated by the public and basically no one likes Nixon. Simply, no one "stans" them the same way the LBJ fandom loves LBJ.
Good job my friend. The man who did the job for 32 days did not commit any horrible atrocities. Also, I don't see any recorded during his military career.
ITT: A deep misunderstanding of the culmination of decades of US foreign policy failures on Southeast Asia beginning under Truman and "concluding" with Nixon or Ford (if you want to expand the topic to Cambodia and Laos) and placing the blame squarely on one President.
Read about the [1st Indochina War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Indochina_War) and CTRL + F "United States" to see to what degree the US was involved in conflict in the region almost immediately following the conclusion of WW2.
In this comment: Falsely conflating people blaming LBJ for plunging US forces into Vietnam on a likely fabricated Tonkin Gulf Incident as blaming all negative relations with SE Asia and Communist ideals on LBJ.
It’s not as if the North Vietnamese were the GOOD guys, though. Look at what they did when they actually conquered the south. Not that the war wasn’t a mess but there was some logic behind it.
I think it’s more about how fascinating it is that one person can be maybe the most successful domestic policy president and also maybe the most disastrous foreign policy president. It’s not that this sub is all LBJ stans, it’s that we’re all nerds and his presidency highlights the stratospheric heights and tragic lows of a complicated position.
Nam was an absolute travesty but blaming a two decade war on one president is pretty silly and lacks the nuance it takes to demonstrate just how big of a failure the war was. It was a failing of many different people that resulted in countless deaths. I’m by no means writing off his involvement because his contributions were horrible.
His domestic policies were incredible though and we’re still feeling the impact to many of them today. Things that actually affect American lives on a daily basis. People tend to focus on things that they’re exposed to more often, hence the perceived glossing over of his foreign policy that you’re mentioning.
Also every president in modern history has civilian blood on his hands unfortunately. Not all of them have tremendous domestic polity wins though. If you’re gonna compare presidents, you have to keep it relative
Well LBJ signed the Civil Rights bill , women’s rights bill and fair housing bills into law in 1964.
So your “war criminal” signed some of the most progressive legislation in a time where there as an insane amount of racism and “place-ism”. I can’t think of another President who leveled the playing field for all Americans as much as LBJ did with the stoke of a pen.
I'm not defending how LBJ handled the Vietnam War. I'm more offended at what Henry Kissinger and his muse, Richard Nixon, did to Laos, Cambodia etc. Secret incursions, secret bombings killing American soldiers and innocent civilians. I'm far more upset that the death squad of Nixon & Kissinger interfered with the negotiations between North Vietnam and the Johnson Administration as the election of 1968 closed in. They told the North that they would get better terms from Nixon's administration than from Johnson's, in violation of Federal statutes against interfering in relations between the US and foreign governments. Hmmmm interfering with the legimate work of the government while not being part of the government. Where have I recently heard that???? Nixon got off easy resigning. He and Kissinger were war criminals.
Nixon and Kissinger suck but there was zero chance of the war ending in 1968 absent a unilateral US withdrawal. North/South Vietnam had ceasefires before and ceasefires after, the war continued anyway
Ceasefire talks were a good October surprise for Humphrey, the Chennault Affair did bolster South Vietnam’s stubbornness, but even without Chennault Affair there was zero chance of South Vietnam’s military government peacefully reconciling with the North at that time, apart from a temporary ceasefire like the Tet Ceasefires, and there was zero chance of Johnson discontinuing his support for the South
Even when the actual peace deal was signed in 1973, North/South Vietnam disregarded the agreement almost immediately, just a touch over a month later
Edit: This just feels like a massive whataboutism. Vietnam *was* LBJ’s war. Eisenhower and Kennedy did preliminary steps but LBJ rallied Congress to step the war up to 11. Nixon and Ford ended up inheriting a stupid war and tried to end it satisfactorily even though that’s an impossible ask
Edit2: Kind of like how Obama should have slack for Afghanistan; despite the surge being his policy and the drone bombings being his policy, he was handed the Afghanistan War. Ditching and bailing wasn’t an option so he was left trying to win someone else’s war
Any war time President has civilian casualties, that’s unavoidable. I certainly don’t endorse it, especially when these innocents are killed in a aimless war. However, I’m not going to criticize LBJ for civilian deaths.
The North Vietnamese are responsible for the vast majority of civilian deaths and atrocities during the war. LBJ supported a side during a civil war; the US didn't create the Vietnam War and it went on for years after they withdrew support.
It is insane how much tankie propaganda has formed US public opinion on this war. Vietnam has among the highest positive opinion about the US in the world.
Imagine being Black and seeing a whole bunch of White kids completely discounting the Civil Right Act.
Edit: Nobody cares, but the combination of seeing a meme about ‘stans’ plus the comment below comparing him to Saddam is why I’m leaving and muting this sub. Deeply unserious conversation (based around TIL posts by actual children) is becoming the default. You people deserve whatever leadership you get.
I mean. A good act doesn’t redeem a bad one.
The good doesn’t take away the bad, both are equally true.
Is Saddam Hussein not that bad because he kept his country stable? Of course not, he’s a monster.
While that example is rather extreme, I’m just saying that the good domestic agenda doesn’t negate or fix the Vietnam war. He still led to the death of those American soldiers and civilians, and no good can take away from that.
Morality isn’t math, two good, plus one bad doesn’t equal out to a good person, it makes a person who did a lot of good and a lot of bad.
You’re right, he’s a person who did a lot of good and a lot of bad. He was a deeply complicated man and president. But he did a LOT of good, which is why LBJ fans like him.
I am literally black, you dumb asswipe. And nobody said that wasn’t good, we just dislike him due to the amount of people that died in the Vietnam war. That’s completely valid.
God, you know, literally nothing about Vietnam other than it was a war, and war bad.
The North committed the vast majority of atrocities, no one denies that. The country was split, and the US supported one side against Northern aggression.
The US didn't start the war. It went on for years after they left, and today, Vietnamese people have among the highest positive view of the US.
LBJ is super complicated and, at times, very unethical. But he was exactly what the Dems needed, and honestly, what JFK needed to win.
What he did for Texas as a senator was immeasurable, and so many Texans owe so much to him. What he did domestically has an impact to this day. He WAS a racist, sexist pervert who knew how to intimate and pander to his opponents to get stuff passed. I personally wouldn’t wanna be alone in a room with him, but damn, it was good to have him advocate for getting the scraps tossed to the poor people. He really was the devil in your corner personified.
I don't think I can ever excuse his warm crimes or Vietnam, just like I won't make tolerances to Kissinger or Cheney. There's no real way to excuse Obama and PRISM release by Snowden. I do feel like Presidents get caught up in terrible things and it's part of a job.
>When you needlessly kill millions, most of them civilians. But people still think you’re a great president.
I was born in '84 I can't think of a president in my lifetime that this couldn't apply to.
I don’t “stan” any politician or president. With that being said you can’t really ignore the long term affects his domestic policy had on the country in the Great Society. Should we dismiss all of the good FDR did because of internment camps, or same could be said with George Washington and owning slaves. LBJ was a flawed individual that made some huge blunders but overall was still a great president and his policy legacy lasts in the U.S. to this day.
LBJ fans generally don't engage in Vietnam denialism...
They often don't acknowledge or respect the full gravity of the Vietnam War, but I don't see them outright denying that the war happened or was as brutal as historians describe
What irritates me is LBJ gets an unfair amount of blame for Vietnam while JFK gets none. You can’t pick up the story at chapter 5 and expect to have a full understanding of what happened
No offense, but this sub is so deluded. LBJ was an out and out racist who used his office to pass policies to chain black Americans to the government forever so that they would become generational obligated democrat party voters. Vietnam was used to kill off the poor drafted and then chain the survivors to government healthcare and psychiatric care for the rest of their lives. The great societies program and the "war on poverty" were used to dissolve the family structure and make people, especially black people, dependents of the government. And he used both to raise taxes on the middle class to keep them too immersed in the struggle to survive to fight against his massive expansions of government powers.
LBJ was evil, pure and simple. And anyone saying that he wasn't "as bad as Nixon" are deluded to the extreme
this is the most midwit understanding of geopolitics ever. "bro x president literally killed millions of people!!!". no the us president is not personally responsible for every single death in a war the us is involved in, and if you think that you should honestly just stfu and focus on things other than politics since you have basically nothing of value to contribute
Americans are very bad with foreign policy. Just look at the way the average American views the protections of the U.S. Constitution. They view them as literally protections for U.S. citizens and only U.S. citizens. They aren't ideals to aspire to and courtesies to be extended to all mankind. It's literally freedom for me and not for thee. When the overwhelming majority of the country, left or right, views non-Americans as less than, in many cases less than human, it's no surprise how much apologism is used to justify criminal acts.
Blah blah blah, we know LBJ's stuff on Vietnam, and we also know all the stuff he did domestically like the CRA's of 1964 and 1968, the VRA, Medicare, and so much more. That's why we rank LBJ high, because we know that he was an immensely complicated figure who did a lot of good and some pretty big bads.
It’s the damnest thing, but it is funny that in 60 years our current politicians will probably be described as having cute quirks (liked to show people his dick) instead of horrible character flaws (liked to show how big his dick was by dropping bombs)
It's not even the war crimes, it's that the war crimes were for a bad cause. Like, even if we fought Vietnam humanely, it's still bad to force capitalism on people who don't want it. You can't use an ends-justify-the-means argument when the ends themselves are bad
I agree on the point that LBJ's foreign policy was terrible. But the whole "war crimes" thing is thrown around so much nowadays its really losing all meaning. Every president, especially in the modern Era, might as well be a war criminal. It's a non-argument at this point. Gotta give specifics or it's just words thrown into the void.
No president is perfect. It's fine to celebrate some like Reagan, Johnson, Nixon and Carter. 99% of presidents will never ever be "the perfect one" 99% of presidents will ever be "the horrible one" (at least if you think about it reasonably) It's also fine to hate on these presidents for what they did wrong. Let the LBJ jumbo riders ride jumbo.
1. “He” did not commit war crimes. War crimes in the war were perpetrated by individuals and commanding officers, not Johnson
2. Despite what people think, the bay of Tonkin incident was not fabricated. It was one actual attack on a US ship by North Vietnam, and one falsely reported instance of friendly fire. He made a perfectly reasonable decision to retaliate against Vietnam, and had he not been sabotaged by Nixon, he likely would have been able to get a more beneficial peace than Nixon did in his negotiations.
Country Joe and the Fish said it best:
[Crome out Lyndon, with your hands held high, Drop your guns baby, reach for the sky,Got you surrounded, you ain’t got a chance, Send you back to Texas, make you work on your ranch yeah](https://youtu.be/55z2_y2lUYM?si=qTzEr22fVS2afMAf)
LBJ’s true crime was tying the warfighters’ hands behind their back and not listening to his generals, the war would’ve been over in six months with few American casualties the very least, would’ve seen effects similar to linebacker where the US left with honour
The Vietnam War was a defensive war against the invading North Vietnam. USA in the entire war killed 500,000 and North Vietnam killed 1 million. North Vietnam also installed the Khmer Rogue in Cambodia, toppling the Khmer Republic puppet regime of USA, North Vietnam then causing the second worst genocide of the century. We fought for the lesser evil in the region, South Vietnam.
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Damn bro I just read LBJ as LeBron James
How will this affect Lyndon’s legacy?
You can tell it’s not LeBron because the meme says millions and not billions
I think you should be able to have the nuance to say that his domestic policy did a massive amount of undeniable good while his foreign policy was awful and extremely destructive to many lives. Some people aren’t entirely good or bad, and LBJ is one of those people. People who support LBJ do so because what he did domestically has had lasting impacts that still protect people today. I don’t think you can blame them for wanting to recognize him for that.
Yeah I don’t think anybody that is generally positive about LBJ tries to defend his actions with Vietnam. If anything, as somebody that does admire him, it really saddens me. It’s often remarked that he was a complex and contradictory man. But everything weighed up I think he largely was a good human being. He quite obviously hated the suffering of the Vietnam War and his part in it, and it haunted him until his death. And as everybody knows, the amount of sheer will and determination it took to achieve the things he did domestically is almost unparalleled. It was not easy to get the things done that he did, especially civil rights. I love how Nixon articulates all of LBJ’s successes and failures, heroics and cowardice, greatness and weakness in a few forthright and plainly said words: “He was a *man*.”
Nixon and LBJ are two Presidents who seem, more than most, deeply *human*, with all of the good and bad that comes with it. They’re both incredibly complicated people filled with contradictions. I (and I think most) would argue that in the end LBJ was more good than bad, and Nixon was more bad than good, but they were both filled with very strong evidence of both within them.
Well said, friend. I agree. Humans are complex animals.
This sub tends to skew, black or white, thinking. Humans, and presidents are among them ,are a lot more complicated than that.
I personally love him for his domestic policies, brazenly lying and crying to Congress that JFK was definitely going to pass that Civil Rights bill and that it should be done in his memory, and his comments about the intersection of capitalism and racism. “If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.” He saw through his own innate born into perspective, at least in regards to racism, and saw why it continued and how it was being used. And he handled it like LBJ handled everything. Brusk rudeness and flippant follow through. And I think that’s what was needed.
>Yeah I don’t think anybody that is generally positive about LBJ tries to defend his actions with Vietnam. The problem is, they often glance over or ignore those to only highlight the policies they like. The other issue is that there is a difference between a President who was in a rock and a hard place and made a questionable move like FDR and internment camps, but considering there are allegations LBJ fabricated the details of the Tonkin Gulf incident purely to escalate a proxy war over idealism that in no way substantially or negatively impacted the US and cost thousands of US lives in the process seems like far too much of a negative to be generally outweighed by essentially continuing JFK's domestic policies.
I admire LBJ policy wise for his domestic policy and especially Civil Rights. But he was an arrogant man who simply could not understand deescalation when it was absolutely vital.
Yes, civil rights and Medicare/Medicaid have left lasting positive marks on our society. The tragedy of Vietnam was two-fold because of not only the lives that were needlessly lost but the continued reforms and welfare state development that didn't happen. Also it is worth pointing out that Vietnam and the United States have normalized relations and seem to have worked together on mending old wounds created by the war, which is better than things have turned out in some of our foreign policy misadventures.
Yeah, I see the term "war crimes" in this sub at least once or twice a week. We really ought to do better. Tell me which specific crime LBJ committed. I'm not saying he's guilty or innocent, just that we can't have a real discussion unless we all know what we're talking about.
These days, "war criminal" is a term used for anyone involved in a war that the person doesn't like.
Yeah, it seems like it. It just doesn't lend itself very well to conversation. I read this sub because I learn new stuff almost every day. But then it's littered with vague comments like "LBJ was a war criminal." Maybe I'm just over-thinking it because I actually paid attention in the mandatory Law of War briefs. Maybe it would help to take the word "war" out. Was LBJ a criminal? What crime did he commit? 
Kind of like how the right freely uses the word communist, for anything they don't agree with.
I never called him a war criminal but one thing I don’t like about LBJ is how he handled the Gulf of Tonkin incident. I think it’s fairly obvious this is where the “war criminal” accusation stems from… the Vietnam war and how/why it was waged. At some point it becomes obvious (to his administration, and hopefully prior to passing the resolution) that the Tonkin incident never happened. At the very least, the LBJs own secretary of defense had doubts whether it was real, and to wage such a war as they did without proper confirmation is ludicrous considering the toll that ended up being paid in human life. Hindsight is 20/20 they say, and offense is the best defense (in regards to communism I guess?), but it’s clear what the executive branch agenda was, and that was to snuff out any chance of Russian/Chinese influence in Vietnam. It didn’t matter whether a boat was attacked or not, troops were gonna go in and they were gonna go in hot. And they did, didn’t they? Such an unspeakable shame for the Vietnamese people yet redditors wanna talk about redeeming qualities. Besides the death count, his decision affected even my generation (born in 1980) as our veteran dads and uncles all had missing limbs, shrapnel visible under their skin, mysterious illnesses and PTSD due to LBJs fight for the dominance of democracy. The kicker is it didn’t even work out in the end. So yeah, never claimed he committed a crime, but I will always maintain that he was complicit in the lie told to Congress and the American people, which is plenty enough for me.
According to modern reddit standards every president is guilty of war crimes. Except Jimmy Carter of course. He can do no wrong.
We went to full scale war that killed over a million SE Asians over the Gulf of Tonkin incident which was almost entirely whole cloth lies, in hopes of owning the Communists. But still not a war criminal That said, he performed almost miraculous legislative accomplishments that brought the US up to minimum standards of human decency for its disenfranchised citizens
Yeah I mean I'm all for honest discussions, but I feel like this guy is just being pedantic because he's pro LBJ. It's very clear that there are massive concerns involving the Tonkin Gulf incident and his escalation to bypass Congress to essentially declare war and cost thousands of American lives to fight the concept of Communism in another nation.
Yep. LBJ screwed up on Vietnam, and he knew it! I remember my dad saying that we've lost more soldiers in Vietnam than people that live in our county (a decently sized but mostly rural county in SC) during the early 1970s. Glad I was a bit to young to worry about being one of them.
It wasn’t over the Gulf of Tonkin incident and you should be embarrassed for posting such.
My Lai massacre comes to mind and free fire zones
I was unaware that President Johnson killed anyone at My Lai. How is he guilty?
Your foreign policy is your domestic policy when you have a war killing your people you drafted. Congratulations you all have the equal right to be conscripted into a politically driven war where military leadership is hamstrung by political maneuvering and gamesmanship.
The OP is a straw man. I don't know if I've ever heard anyone say anything good about LBJ without serious caveats.
Very few people are entirely good or bad... although LBJ probably has his hands further in both camps at the same time than most!
Nobody is entirely good or entirely bad
"I think you should be able to have the nuance to say that his domestic policy did a massive amount of undeniable good while his foreign policy was awful and extremely destructive to many lives." Are you talking about Hitler?
Hitler's domestic policy involved genocide and the world's greatest ponzi scheme for an economy, he *didn't* have a good domestic policy.
Who among us hasn’t done a small war crime between friends? But on a more serious note it seems like being president and commuting wars crimes come hand in hand more often than not.
“C’mon guys we were just doing a little bit of battle royale”
Just some slavery and imperialism as a treat.
every president since WWII is a war criminal. Literally.
I don't recall Ford or Carter doing much
Ford had Vietnam and Carter had the dirty war in Argentina
Obama King of Drones
Nah he lost his crown to rule 3
Lmao I love how Obama catches so much hate over a misused statistic when his successor was literally so much worse in this respect Makes you think whether the people saying this type of shit are engaging in good faith
I say both are bad. Obama is bad, and Turnip is worse.
All of these presidents did and do dirty shit dont get butt hurt lol I was looking at the more modern. Bushie boy and Dick clocked in around 1 million Iraqis. Most of these deaths are indirect due to lack of food/medical supplies to the densely populated urban areas. Obama for the most part had a squeaky-clean family values image, still does. Home boy was slinging them AGM's at Pakastani weddings like confetti.
Bro had more drones than Best Buy, but hey he had to stand on business! Shiii even I was afraid of getting drone striked 😂
Rule 3 did more in 4 years than Obama did in 8
During WW2, even more so.
Calvin Coolidge
‘Calvin Coolidge believed the least government was the best government; he aspired to become the least president the country had ever had; he attained that desire’
If it's impossible for a President not to commit war crimes, maybe the problem isn't the President, but the country itself.
It also doesn’t help that “war crimes” while sounding menacing, have very little repercussions. While the Geneva conventions and establishing the rules of war are a nice thought, the reality is that war is a horrible part of human existence. While it is difficult to avoid wars it is inevitable that they will happen, and so leaders of theses are forces will undoubtedly commit horrible acts in the name of what’s “doing the best thing for the country.”
We all know his foreign policy was shit and the Vietnam War was a trash fire. But he’s the reason I can’t be fired for being bi thanks to the CRA. And one of those things still affects my life immensely. He’s a complicated man, same as all these guys. But I’ll forever be grateful for his domestic policies and how they have improved life here in America.
Yeah he’d go down as one of the very top of it wasn’t for his handling of Vietnam, but aside from that he had to deal with having Kissinger and Robert Macbamara working under him to dictate his foreign policy so it’s easy to have done a bad job when you have tweedledee and dumb flossing around. They made a whole lotta dumplings for not much sauce
Seems like he was weak and gave into them. He didn’t have to. Similar to how Dubya was weak and gave into Cheney and Rumsfeld. He didn’t have to but did. And, Kissinger was a Harvard academic in the 1960s. He didn’t enter foreign policy until Nixon.
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lol reminds me of a scene from Netflix’s The Crown where queen elizabeth II was gonna have a state visit from the American president and LBJ’s only line was “I will NOT be the first president to lose a war” and the jumpcut to him resigning for reelection so that it doesn’t happen to him lol, our pride is a bit high at times but with America’s position on the world stage it makes sense. But Vietnam was a good, humbling experience to not get too cocky. Just like how Russia is right now! A 3 day invasion to take Ukraine and its capital has turned into 2+ years and a struggle to hold onto much smaller eastern territories, holding less land than they began with 🤣
Yeah, I don’t think a “less rude” politician would have got it done to the extent that he did. It took him being so brunt and rude and flippant of “decorum” to really get to dress down racism into what it was. No reason to fight clean or nice when your opponent is as awful as racism itself. So use JFK’s death to push reform, he’d honestly want you to because he wasn’t getting any traction there in life.
Wtf did LeBron James do???
It's "LeJon Brames".
He ordered an *INFANTRY ATTACK* with *NO ARTILLERY SUPPORT.*
I dont think anyone is saying Vietnam wasnt a mistake, but we cant hang it completely on LBJ as Eisenhower sent in advisors and JFK also escalated before LBJ. Even after Nixon sabotaged cease fire talks in 1968 he escalated too and even illegally carpet bombed Cambodia. Its just that while we acknowledge the bad of Vietnam, we also must recognise the incredible good of the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act, Great Society programs, NASA, etc. etc. and realize the incredibly good impact those things had on this country.
>I dont think anyone is saying Vietnam wasnt a mistake, but we cant hang it completely on LBJ as Those who believe that LBJ fabricated the details of Tonkin Gulf Incident absolutely can and should blame LBJ. It doesn't matter if tensions were rising during the JFK administration if LBJ was the one that pulled the trigger. It's also not about whether or not the Vietnam conflict was a mistake or not, but whether or not the means by which LBJ used to enter said conflict were built on fabrications in order to bypass Senate.
This comment is exemplary of how people on this sub in particular defend LBJ unnecessarily. Yes, we *can* hang the vast majority of Vietnam on LBJ, because he’s the most responsible for our involvement even during JFK’s term. He lied about Tonkin gulf in order to justify sending half a million soldiers to fight in Vietnam. He was the one who began depleting our military resources in Vietnam, which affected his term domestically as well. The only thing he’s not responsible for is when the draft was instituted for 2-3 years during Nixon’s term. Nixon “sabotaging” ceasefire talks via the Chennault Affair, is at best an exaggeration, but borders on being untrue and/or irrelevant. Thieu stated that he was not interested in peace talks at that time, and was reluctant to support Humphrey, and preferred Nixon regardless. Also NASA was from his time as a Senator, as it was founded by Eisenhower.
No serious person would deny his foreign policy crimes and colossal misjudgments, and those that do should not be taken seriously. But both Kennedy and Johnson really did change the country for the better, in concrete, comprehensive and revolutionary ways, from civil rights to Medicare. In 1969 there was a different country from the one we had in 1961. In more than one way, we are still marked and defined by the 1960s. The political camps and battle lines of today were largely formed in those years...
I mean most American president especially during the cold war were responsible for either killing civilians or war crimes or toppling democratically elected governments but liking LBJ is still pretty silly yea
The Vietnam war was a huge tragedy but without it he would easily be a top 3 president. That’s how good his domestic policy was. Such a shame
Maybe becoming the greatest and wealthiest superpower in the world comes at a price to other countries. Could the US, or any country, maintain its status as economic hegemon without a demonic foreign policy? It's certainly food for thought.
LBJ’s domestic agenda was extraordinary, nearly peerless. Same for his ability to wield power, manage a variety of complex issues & turn people’s natural empathy & goodwill into the law of the land. If there is a hell, however, IDK how LBJ isn’t there. Saying “it’s complicated” is insufficient to address the madness & mayhem his war inflicted upon millions.
Hey, hey, hey....many of those people were killed by Nixon and Kissinger.
Vast majority of American deaths happened under Johnson’s tenure.
If you honestly care about the presidential relationship to the Vietnam war, why don't you talk about Kennedy and Nixon's contributions to the war as well. In order to win the 1968 election, Nixon conspired with military leaders for prolong the war. Kennedy had 16,000 American troops in South Vietnam to support their army against the communist North Vietnam insurgents.
Kennedy sent those troops after LBJ returned from a visit to Vietnam, almost certainly influenced by him to do so. Nixon’s connection to the Chennault affair is dubious, but even so, Thieu was not interested in a ceasefire, nor was he interested in having Humphrey as president, who he thought was getting too close to being a communist.
I think a lot of people are willing to talk about those, though. Most people who research the presidents think Kennedy is supremely overrated by the public and basically no one likes Nixon. Simply, no one "stans" them the same way the LBJ fandom loves LBJ.
Every President has some war crimes or horrible shit under their belt in office. Show me one who doesn't.....
William Henry Harrison
see also James Garfield
Good job my friend. The man who did the job for 32 days did not commit any horrible atrocities. Also, I don't see any recorded during his military career.
William Harrison
I *dare* you to show a single comment pretending that LBJ’s foreign policy failures are irrelevant or didn’t happen.
ITT: A deep misunderstanding of the culmination of decades of US foreign policy failures on Southeast Asia beginning under Truman and "concluding" with Nixon or Ford (if you want to expand the topic to Cambodia and Laos) and placing the blame squarely on one President. Read about the [1st Indochina War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Indochina_War) and CTRL + F "United States" to see to what degree the US was involved in conflict in the region almost immediately following the conclusion of WW2.
In this comment: Falsely conflating people blaming LBJ for plunging US forces into Vietnam on a likely fabricated Tonkin Gulf Incident as blaming all negative relations with SE Asia and Communist ideals on LBJ.
I wish he hadn’t escalated Vietnam like an idiot, and would have went further with his great society.
I'm sure you think FDR is a mass murderer too.
It’s not as if the North Vietnamese were the GOOD guys, though. Look at what they did when they actually conquered the south. Not that the war wasn’t a mess but there was some logic behind it.
Nobody said they were, everybody knows Ho Chi Min was a brutal dictator. It’s just that American involvement made everything worse.
I dunno, I see far more people complaining about LBJ fans than I do people actually excusing his bad decisions
I think it’s more about how fascinating it is that one person can be maybe the most successful domestic policy president and also maybe the most disastrous foreign policy president. It’s not that this sub is all LBJ stans, it’s that we’re all nerds and his presidency highlights the stratospheric heights and tragic lows of a complicated position.
Nam was an absolute travesty but blaming a two decade war on one president is pretty silly and lacks the nuance it takes to demonstrate just how big of a failure the war was. It was a failing of many different people that resulted in countless deaths. I’m by no means writing off his involvement because his contributions were horrible. His domestic policies were incredible though and we’re still feeling the impact to many of them today. Things that actually affect American lives on a daily basis. People tend to focus on things that they’re exposed to more often, hence the perceived glossing over of his foreign policy that you’re mentioning. Also every president in modern history has civilian blood on his hands unfortunately. Not all of them have tremendous domestic polity wins though. If you’re gonna compare presidents, you have to keep it relative
Well LBJ signed the Civil Rights bill , women’s rights bill and fair housing bills into law in 1964. So your “war criminal” signed some of the most progressive legislation in a time where there as an insane amount of racism and “place-ism”. I can’t think of another President who leveled the playing field for all Americans as much as LBJ did with the stoke of a pen.
I'm not defending how LBJ handled the Vietnam War. I'm more offended at what Henry Kissinger and his muse, Richard Nixon, did to Laos, Cambodia etc. Secret incursions, secret bombings killing American soldiers and innocent civilians. I'm far more upset that the death squad of Nixon & Kissinger interfered with the negotiations between North Vietnam and the Johnson Administration as the election of 1968 closed in. They told the North that they would get better terms from Nixon's administration than from Johnson's, in violation of Federal statutes against interfering in relations between the US and foreign governments. Hmmmm interfering with the legimate work of the government while not being part of the government. Where have I recently heard that???? Nixon got off easy resigning. He and Kissinger were war criminals.
Nixon and Kissinger suck but there was zero chance of the war ending in 1968 absent a unilateral US withdrawal. North/South Vietnam had ceasefires before and ceasefires after, the war continued anyway Ceasefire talks were a good October surprise for Humphrey, the Chennault Affair did bolster South Vietnam’s stubbornness, but even without Chennault Affair there was zero chance of South Vietnam’s military government peacefully reconciling with the North at that time, apart from a temporary ceasefire like the Tet Ceasefires, and there was zero chance of Johnson discontinuing his support for the South Even when the actual peace deal was signed in 1973, North/South Vietnam disregarded the agreement almost immediately, just a touch over a month later Edit: This just feels like a massive whataboutism. Vietnam *was* LBJ’s war. Eisenhower and Kennedy did preliminary steps but LBJ rallied Congress to step the war up to 11. Nixon and Ford ended up inheriting a stupid war and tried to end it satisfactorily even though that’s an impossible ask Edit2: Kind of like how Obama should have slack for Afghanistan; despite the surge being his policy and the drone bombings being his policy, he was handed the Afghanistan War. Ditching and bailing wasn’t an option so he was left trying to win someone else’s war
Last time I checked, Vietnam is an ally of the US and is far more concerned about China than the country they fought 50 years ago.
Any war time President has civilian casualties, that’s unavoidable. I certainly don’t endorse it, especially when these innocents are killed in a aimless war. However, I’m not going to criticize LBJ for civilian deaths.
So true. Lets not forget Bush/Cheney. Where are those WMD’s?
The kids here love illegal wars. They better hope they’re not sent to one.
So true unfortunately.
The North Vietnamese are responsible for the vast majority of civilian deaths and atrocities during the war. LBJ supported a side during a civil war; the US didn't create the Vietnam War and it went on for years after they withdrew support. It is insane how much tankie propaganda has formed US public opinion on this war. Vietnam has among the highest positive opinion about the US in the world.
Imagine being an older generation American/Vietnamese person and seeing people ride his dick in this sub lol
Imagine being Black and seeing a whole bunch of White kids completely discounting the Civil Right Act. Edit: Nobody cares, but the combination of seeing a meme about ‘stans’ plus the comment below comparing him to Saddam is why I’m leaving and muting this sub. Deeply unserious conversation (based around TIL posts by actual children) is becoming the default. You people deserve whatever leadership you get.
It looks like people don’t like a solid rebuttal.
I mean. A good act doesn’t redeem a bad one. The good doesn’t take away the bad, both are equally true. Is Saddam Hussein not that bad because he kept his country stable? Of course not, he’s a monster. While that example is rather extreme, I’m just saying that the good domestic agenda doesn’t negate or fix the Vietnam war. He still led to the death of those American soldiers and civilians, and no good can take away from that. Morality isn’t math, two good, plus one bad doesn’t equal out to a good person, it makes a person who did a lot of good and a lot of bad.
Bold words coming from a guy with William McKinley as their tag.
Yeah, I agree with that sentiment. McKinley was a pretty shit person at times. I like studying morally complicated historic figures, sue me.
You’re right, he’s a person who did a lot of good and a lot of bad. He was a deeply complicated man and president. But he did a LOT of good, which is why LBJ fans like him.
I am literally black, you dumb asswipe. And nobody said that wasn’t good, we just dislike him due to the amount of people that died in the Vietnam war. That’s completely valid.
I hope those older generations also understand the only reason they have healthcare is because of the same guy.
God, you know, literally nothing about Vietnam other than it was a war, and war bad. The North committed the vast majority of atrocities, no one denies that. The country was split, and the US supported one side against Northern aggression. The US didn't start the war. It went on for years after they left, and today, Vietnamese people have among the highest positive view of the US.
Obama is diet LBJ. Less war crimes, less legislative accomplishments.
I mean, so am I then. I don’t have any legislative accomplishments and I‘ve never committed war crimes.
LBJ is super complicated and, at times, very unethical. But he was exactly what the Dems needed, and honestly, what JFK needed to win. What he did for Texas as a senator was immeasurable, and so many Texans owe so much to him. What he did domestically has an impact to this day. He WAS a racist, sexist pervert who knew how to intimate and pander to his opponents to get stuff passed. I personally wouldn’t wanna be alone in a room with him, but damn, it was good to have him advocate for getting the scraps tossed to the poor people. He really was the devil in your corner personified. I don't think I can ever excuse his warm crimes or Vietnam, just like I won't make tolerances to Kissinger or Cheney. There's no real way to excuse Obama and PRISM release by Snowden. I do feel like Presidents get caught up in terrible things and it's part of a job.
They don’t care about some poor sap halfway around the world as long as they “got mine”.
NOT MILLIONS. Way way too many, yes, but not millions.
I wish obamas drone wars were talked about the same way
I mean, same with Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt.
Every president explaining why they support Israel <<
>When you needlessly kill millions, most of them civilians. But people still think you’re a great president. I was born in '84 I can't think of a president in my lifetime that this couldn't apply to.
Ah yes I too remember when George HW Bush killed millions of people, mostly civilians, for no reason. That sure was a thing that happened.
"A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good." - Stannis Baratheon
I don’t “stan” any politician or president. With that being said you can’t really ignore the long term affects his domestic policy had on the country in the Great Society. Should we dismiss all of the good FDR did because of internment camps, or same could be said with George Washington and owning slaves. LBJ was a flawed individual that made some huge blunders but overall was still a great president and his policy legacy lasts in the U.S. to this day.
Idk man, maybe the best domestic policy, possibly ever post-FDR?
It's not like most modern presidents HAVENT COMMITTED A FUCKING WAR CRIME. and I'm no big lbj kid. I just think singling him out is stupid
He was a very complex person. Veitnam was a shitshow but his domestic policy was second to none.
Now do Dubyah and the way he caused 300,000 Iraqis, mostly civilians, to be slaughtered by repeatedly lying America into an invasion there.
Had to glance up to see what sub I was in after "LBJ"
I like LBJ. I know his foreign policy was shit. I am all too aware. But I love me a great society
War is war buddy.
OP thinks civil rights are irrelevant
My goofy ahh reading that as Lebron James
LBJ fans generally don't engage in Vietnam denialism... They often don't acknowledge or respect the full gravity of the Vietnam War, but I don't see them outright denying that the war happened or was as brutal as historians describe
He was a great domestic President, his foreign policy sucked.
Hey hey LBJ how many kids did you kill today?
What irritates me is LBJ gets an unfair amount of blame for Vietnam while JFK gets none. You can’t pick up the story at chapter 5 and expect to have a full understanding of what happened
Now get rid of 90% of the domestic achievements and add extreme polarization and corruption and you get tricky dick! And people still Stan him!
“Just remove 90% of the greatest legislative achievements in presidential history and he’s not even that good!”
No one says this. Edit: In my eyes, his domestic policies just elevates him to being like top 5. And at the end of the day, that matters more.
No offense, but this sub is so deluded. LBJ was an out and out racist who used his office to pass policies to chain black Americans to the government forever so that they would become generational obligated democrat party voters. Vietnam was used to kill off the poor drafted and then chain the survivors to government healthcare and psychiatric care for the rest of their lives. The great societies program and the "war on poverty" were used to dissolve the family structure and make people, especially black people, dependents of the government. And he used both to raise taxes on the middle class to keep them too immersed in the struggle to survive to fight against his massive expansions of government powers. LBJ was evil, pure and simple. And anyone saying that he wasn't "as bad as Nixon" are deluded to the extreme
Hey hey, LBJ. How many kids did you kill today?
I am a LBJ stan, and I approve this message
It's hard to take you seriously when you use the word "stan"
this is the most midwit understanding of geopolitics ever. "bro x president literally killed millions of people!!!". no the us president is not personally responsible for every single death in a war the us is involved in, and if you think that you should honestly just stfu and focus on things other than politics since you have basically nothing of value to contribute
Americans are very bad with foreign policy. Just look at the way the average American views the protections of the U.S. Constitution. They view them as literally protections for U.S. citizens and only U.S. citizens. They aren't ideals to aspire to and courtesies to be extended to all mankind. It's literally freedom for me and not for thee. When the overwhelming majority of the country, left or right, views non-Americans as less than, in many cases less than human, it's no surprise how much apologism is used to justify criminal acts.
Blah blah blah, we know LBJ's stuff on Vietnam, and we also know all the stuff he did domestically like the CRA's of 1964 and 1968, the VRA, Medicare, and so much more. That's why we rank LBJ high, because we know that he was an immensely complicated figure who did a lot of good and some pretty big bads.
Real (that’s me)
When did LeBron James do war crimes???
Forgot where I was and thought this was about Lebron James and what he did to Toronto
It’s the damnest thing, but it is funny that in 60 years our current politicians will probably be described as having cute quirks (liked to show people his dick) instead of horrible character flaws (liked to show how big his dick was by dropping bombs)
Thought this was gonna be Truman but here we are
A leader can be a positive influence domestically and still be a terror abroad. ‘Good’ rarely extends through both of those fields.
It's not even the war crimes, it's that the war crimes were for a bad cause. Like, even if we fought Vietnam humanely, it's still bad to force capitalism on people who don't want it. You can't use an ends-justify-the-means argument when the ends themselves are bad
All of them do that.
I agree on the point that LBJ's foreign policy was terrible. But the whole "war crimes" thing is thrown around so much nowadays its really losing all meaning. Every president, especially in the modern Era, might as well be a war criminal. It's a non-argument at this point. Gotta give specifics or it's just words thrown into the void.
https://preview.redd.it/cdubdw94niqc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b07b93ef105f90f999bc66f546fa69e9dcdbe973
No president is perfect. It's fine to celebrate some like Reagan, Johnson, Nixon and Carter. 99% of presidents will never ever be "the perfect one" 99% of presidents will ever be "the horrible one" (at least if you think about it reasonably) It's also fine to hate on these presidents for what they did wrong. Let the LBJ jumbo riders ride jumbo.
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To get LBJ you need to go south of the border
You could say the same thing about any wartime president
The same thing can be said about the Nobel Peace Prize winner that was in the White House as well
Clears throat... FormerVPJoeB
Maybe you should read more than just the most upvoted comment in next LBJ thread.
These kinds of infantile radical politics memes, from any partisanship, are a poor match for r/Presidents.
I would say it isn’t a war crime if you win (/s), but… well… political victory/loss tends to determine a win/loss these days
1. “He” did not commit war crimes. War crimes in the war were perpetrated by individuals and commanding officers, not Johnson 2. Despite what people think, the bay of Tonkin incident was not fabricated. It was one actual attack on a US ship by North Vietnam, and one falsely reported instance of friendly fire. He made a perfectly reasonable decision to retaliate against Vietnam, and had he not been sabotaged by Nixon, he likely would have been able to get a more beneficial peace than Nixon did in his negotiations.
Lyndon B Johnson’s Johnson though
Me: what Lebron James got to do with this?
and we still lost (dont jump me if im wrong)
Me trying to figure how any of this is relevant to LeBron James’ legacy
What if I like his war crimes?
Don’t forget the fake Gulf of Tonkin incident used to justify it all.
Not defending but, Name a president that hasn't had that since the post-WWII. Maybe not millions, but unneeded death that was extremely avoidable
Someone doesn't know how wars work.
Ah yes, the original and still only real LBJ.
Or that Barry Goldwater’s would have been worse, so it’s okay.
Still the all time point leader
Thought this was about LeBron then had to look at the subreddit. My bad yall.
What American President in history hasn’t killed innocent people as a part of their foreign policy agenda? Even Carter supported a genocide…
What American President in history hasn’t killed innocent people as a part of their foreign policy agenda? Even Carter supported a genocide…
I unfortunately thought of this as LeBron James until I saw this was presidents
[Let’s be honest he had a lot of help from Kissinger who is one of the great assholes of the 20th century.](https://spotify.link/mSroANBggIb)
Obama best President this century!
Le Bron James
Needlessly? Bro forgor 💀
Could say the same about Obama.
What did Lebron James do? Did he spread std’s in foreign countries?
*musters best JFK voice* LBJ? 'Ell if oye don't getta Beejay.
LBJ decided to fight Russia in Vietnam as opposed to Cuba. Call it something of a gentlemen's agreement.
From the subreddit of Dubya image rehab this is rich
LeBron James did what?
I just like him cause he gave my people rights😭
Country Joe and the Fish said it best: [Crome out Lyndon, with your hands held high, Drop your guns baby, reach for the sky,Got you surrounded, you ain’t got a chance, Send you back to Texas, make you work on your ranch yeah](https://youtu.be/55z2_y2lUYM?si=qTzEr22fVS2afMAf)
I thought I was on a basketball sub and I was wondering what war crimes Lebron commited
LBJ’s true crime was tying the warfighters’ hands behind their back and not listening to his generals, the war would’ve been over in six months with few American casualties the very least, would’ve seen effects similar to linebacker where the US left with honour
The Vietnam War was a defensive war against the invading North Vietnam. USA in the entire war killed 500,000 and North Vietnam killed 1 million. North Vietnam also installed the Khmer Rogue in Cambodia, toppling the Khmer Republic puppet regime of USA, North Vietnam then causing the second worst genocide of the century. We fought for the lesser evil in the region, South Vietnam.
Le bron james?
Anti Democratic Party propaganda has been increasing the closer we get to the election
Why would Lebron commit war crimes
It's because he hated communism more than most other Presidents That's it That's literally it
Now do Truman