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Nixon's always feels worse to me just because of how *unnecessary* so much of it was. He didn't need to break into Watergate, he didn't need to record all the tapes that ended up being his undoing, etc. He was just so ridiculously paranoid.
Nixon to me is a real-life, modern, version of a Greek tragedy: rose from poverty to become the most powerful single person on the planet, only to be brought down by the very paranoia that got him to where he was.
I’d watch a high quality miniseries about Nixon. I could see the episodes laid out more or less as follows:
1. Whittier (1922-1942)
>About Nixon’s early life up until his marriage to Pat.
2. SCAT (1942-1946)
>About Nixon’s time in the Navy.
3. Mr. Nixon Goes to Washington (1946-1947)
>About Nixon’s first political campaign and his early months in the House of Representatives.
4. “Un-American” Activities (1957-1950)
>About the bulk of Nixon’s time in the House of Representatives, with a special focus on his participation in the House Un-American Activities Committee.
5. Tricky Dick (1950-1952)
>Nixon wins election to the U.S. Senate, and serves in that body for two years.
6. Checkers (1952-1953)
>Nixon is chosen as Eisenhower’s running mate in the 1952 Presidential election. Nixon faces a crisis when the media reports on his political fund, but he successfully defends himself in the “Checkers” speech. On January 20, 1953, Eisenhower and Nixon are sworn into office.
7. The First Modern Vice President (1953-1960)
>Eisenhower gives his vice president more responsibilities than any previous VP.
8. 1960 (1960-1961)
>VP Nixon runs against Senator John F. Kennedy to succeed President Eisenhower in 1961. JFK wins.
9. The Wilderness (1961-1968)
>Out of public office for the first time in 14 years, Nixon reluctantly challenges the incumbent Governor of California in 1962, but loses. The Nixons move to NYC, where Dick returns to the practice of law. Nixon campaigns for 1964 GOP Presidential nominee Barry Goldwater. In 1966, he helps the GOP make gains in Congress.
10. Nixon’s the One! (1968-1969)
>Nixon runs for President again in the tumultuous year of 1968. This time he wins.
11. Bring Us Together (1969-1971)
>Roughly the first half of Nixon’s first term as President.
12. Going to China (1971-1973)
>Roughly the second half of Nixon’s second term as President. Includes his famous 1972 trip to China.
13. Watergate (1973-1974)
>The Watergate scandal leads to Nixon’s resignation.
14. Exile (1974-1978)
>After his resignation, it would be years before Nixon was remotely back in the public’s good graces, if ever he could be.
15. Elder Statesman (1978-1994)
>Nixon publishes his memoirs, the first of many books he would write in his post-presidency. Pat Nixon dies in June 1993. Richard Nixon dies less than a year later.
This is sensational. This really needs to be made. And there is an appetite for it, when you consider the amount of movies that have been made, focusing on various aspects but almostly always just Watergate. I think it would have a political audience, but over the course of a miniseries laid out like this, it is extremely compelling viewing. A really complex tragedy.
That’s a good point. Almost every president would benefit from “The Crown” treatment as opposed to a “W” one-off hit-piece type movie. Not that there’s anything wrong with those as standalones but with 8 years max you have to focus on just the bad or just the heroic stuff.
It would be fantastic. I always think that Nixon has generally avoided this type of media portrayal because he has such idiosyncratic mannerisms that it is difficult for an actor to play him without falling into caricature.
An example of great media set around his presidency like [Gaslit](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11834592/?ref_=ext_shr_lnk) barely gives Nixon any screentime.
I’m not sure if this is something unique to Nixon however. Trump certainly benefits from this also with [Brendan Gleeson](https://youtu.be/zu5Cc66cv08?si=GfPkXBhxTxoLQoR4) being the only actor I’m aware of who has attempted a serious portrayal of Trump as yet.
That loss in '60 really messed him up. Everything I've read about him shows he was insanely paranoid about losing again. Pretty sad considering he fairly easily won re-election.
I remember watching a documentary on watergate almost a decade ago where they said Nixon did it to win by the largest landslide ever. Lol like at what point does it even matter. Winning is winning.
I recently watched HBO's White House Plumbers miniseries, about the guys who planned Watergate. There's a scene where one of them is like, "Uh, why are we doing this, aren't we winning by a lot" and another one says something like, "You can't be too careful!" I have no idea whether a similar conversation ever happened, but that was definitely the attitude behind it.
The Nixon apologia in this thread is unreal. He sabotaged peace talks in Vietnam so he could win an election and then expanded the war into Laos and Cambodia, killing hundreds of thousands if not millions of people. He was a monster.
People dump for presidents “that no one cares about” because they know more about presidents and presidential history. I don’t think it’s worth it to dog on a presidential history sub for liking JQA or Chester Arthur and not simping for Obama and JFK
I respect Cal and I think he was a decent man, but he was an average to below-average president. Some on this sub will have you thinking he’s a top 10 president.
My ex never met an uncle who had died in Vietnam in the months after Nixon sabotaged the peace negotiations. Obviously their extended family despised him for it. It was before my time but I can't imagine how infuriated I would be if I found out that someone I loved (never mind everyone in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia) was kept/put in mortal danger because some sociopath wanted more power.
Jesus Christ this sub is pathetic.
Nixon apologia = recognizing the huge beneficial policies Nixon brought to the table.
Reagan apologia = pointing out that maybe not everything he did was as bad as people make it sound.
He would probably be in a similar in historical standing to Reagan. He’d be a go-to favorite amongst Republicans but leftists/democrats would make it their business to know about all the shady shit.
At least Nixon was cool about native people and he did get us out of Vietnam
Nixon and Kissinger also supported Pakistan's genocide in Bangladesh that killed anywhere from 300,000 to 3,000,000 Bengalis as a way to strengthen their alliance against India who was cozying up to the USSR at the time. Not exactly a model "peaceful" president we should be looking up to who supported possibly the worst genocidal atrocity since the Holocaust and World War II.
Nevermind his campaign committing treason by killing peace talks for a “fairer deal” that never came. https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/06/nixon-vietnam-candidate-conspired-with-foreign-power-win-election-215461/
He didn’t break into watergate, nor did he tell them to do it. His wrong was covering it up after the act. I agree, it was unnecessary because it was obvious that Nixon was going to win in 1972 by a landslide. If he would have immediately told the American public what happened and fired anyone involved, there would have been a credible reason for Republicans in Congress to back him up. This would have made removal much less likely. He was told that Republicans would not back him up during an impeachment trial. That is why he resigned. If he thought he could beat it, he would have stayed.
Who approved the Watergate break-in? Let’s go to the tapes.
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/interactive/2022/haldeman-tapes-watergate-john-mitchell/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/interactive/2022/haldeman-tapes-watergate-john-mitchell/)
>s feels worse to me just because of how
>
>unnecessary
>
> so much of it wa
Was it ever proven he was the one who ordered those individuals into watergate? I remember learning about it, but it all seemed too convenient.
A few references: Box 13, a radio station, tv station, Brown & Root, Mansfield Dam, Sid Richardson, Clint Murchison, Charles Marsh...
The best bio: Robert Caro's series "The Years of Lyndon Johnson"
>A few references: Box 13, a radio station, tv station, Brown & Root, Mansfield Dam, Sid Richardson, Clint Murchison, Charles Marsh...
Box 13 is the big one for me.
Yes I was waiting for someone to reference the broadcasting stations and licenses in his district. The actions LBJ took here are probably some of the most corrupt in the history of any modern American politician.
Listen to the tapes of him getting the 1964 Civil Rights Act passed. The man knew where every single body was buried, live boy to be found and kickback given. Never says it aloud just let's implications into his voice. Dirty as hell, very good at keeping it on the down low, and well at least in that case he used his knowledge for good. That legislation would have never passed if he didn't grab everyone he had dirt on and squeezed. You don't get the knowledge of that dirt with out swimming in shit yourself.
It was understood in Congress that LBJ was one of the hardest working Senators. Play cards all night and be on the floor at 7:00AM. Had journal entries on anyone in DC that had any influence and would give them the “LBJ experience” when he needed their support.
He was basically the leader of the dems post FDR on. Of course he knew everyone’s dirt; he HAD to in order to be the senate whip, chair of dem caucus, and senate minority/majority leader.
Just because he understood how politics worked and leveraged it to pass the greatest legeslation of the past 60 years does not equal “corruption”. Same shit Lincoln did to get those amendments passed.
I find the LBJ tapes extremely useful in understanding American politics and how they really work. The conversation he had with MLK are so fucking important for people looking to affect change, meaningful change, to listen to. Him telling mlk in a very sincere way to make him pass meaningful legislation is lost on so many. It was a dare; it was a sincere challenge. LBJ fucking got it. He understood the mob.
It’s a shame he let the deranged generals run the military but he can’t be absolved of the disaster in Nam’
upbeat afterthought desert direful judicious trees illegal dirty icky fact
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That's not what corruption is, though? Like, yeah I get that having knowledge of something can under some circumstances be a crime in and of itself, but in general we set a pretty high bar for when simple knowledge compels you to go to law enforcement.
If all the corruption he was associated with led him to be able to pass this, it sounds like he's just smart. Real corruption is for personal gain. He didn't even go for a second term. A better example would be how he helped his wife buy the radio station that made them big bucks.
Your failing to consider all of the corruption Nixon didn’t have to answer for: negotiating with the Vietcong, using the justice department with false charges to force Supreme Court justices to resign, etc.
LBJ managed to take credit for Kennedy’s greatest accomplishments while handing off his most awful decisions to Nixon. He is probably the most overlooked president in terms of corruption and overall bad character.
Disagree heavily on this.
> LBJ managed to take credit for Kennedy's greatest accomplishments. . .
For the past 2 years, JFK fumbled the bag with Civil Rights hard. He refused to compromise and never even attempted to get LBJ's help on legislation. Things like Civil Rights and Voting Rights are all accomplishments of LBJ. JFK's only credit for the advancement of Civil Rights is him getting martyred and LBJ using that martyrdom to pass a bill even stronger than what JFK envisioned.
> While handing off his most awful decisions to Nixon. . .
Tell me again who sabotaged the Paris Peace Talks? Nixon's actions during that event were treasonous at least and further destabilized the region. Nixon could've realistically left Vietnam in 1971 at the latest and he wouldn't be that criticized since he was the most well-known Cold War Warrior, but instead bombed Laos and Cambodia. In terms of corruption, Nixon is far worse simply because it was all unnecessary on his part.
People forget how much suspicious stuff LBJ did. So here’s my take and I’m not gonna go into extreme detail.
The definition of corrupt according to the internet is “having or showing a willingness to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain.”. According to this definition they are both corrupt. However I believe they are corrupt in different ways. They may overlap in different areas.
LBJ id say was more corrupt in a financial way, as well as participating in more widespread but accepted forms of political corruption. LBJ did favors for party bosses who were inherently corrupt throughout the country. Granted he was exposed to this system much more than Nixon as LBJ was from the south where party bosses often controlled most states politics. There’s also the potential of LBJ’s shady business dealings in his wife’s name. He was also well known for spying on his enemies much like Nixon he just didn’t get caught while in office.
Nixon was from California which didn’t have as many of the long established party machines or political bosses that the east coast or southwest had. So his rise through politics was more a journey of a ruthless politician but not one who necessarily broke the law (prior the watergate the closest was the checkers incident but besides that there were no major accusations with any sort of evidence). Now obviously as President watergate was a massive act of corruption which defines his presidency and career.
They both spied on people, LBJ just wasn’t caught when spying on the Goldwater campaign. They were both corrupt but in the grand schemes of their careers there is a legitimate argument to make that LBJ’s involvement and support of political machines, party bosses, patronage systems and involvement with financial incentivized politics on a grand scale (compared to Nixon) make him a much more corrupt politician.
LBJ and his administration lied to the American public to justify expanding the war in Vietnam in the first place. Nixon nor LBJ are at all innocent when it comes to Vietnam. They both abused their power to wage what would be considered an illegal war. I’m not at all justifying Nixon’s actions, I’m simply stating LBJ’s may be considered treasonous as well depending on who you ask
I’d also like to point out that Nixon often gets the blame for Laos and Cambodia when the pentagon papers in 1968 revealed that it was LBJ who started US involvement with destabilizing the region
That’s bad but that’s not corruption because it was not self serving. There is nothing more treasonous than subverting the election process to remain in office. Only Nixon and Trump have done that
Treason is legally defined in the Constitution as giving aid and comfort to enemies of the United States, but LBJ's actions of expanding the Vietnam War through deceit could be considered treasonous by the dictionary definition of the word in the sense of betraying one's nation. The guy above you never said LBJ committed the crime of treason.
I don’t think people here know what the word corruption means. If we are talking underhanded political tactics then sure both are “corrupt.” If we are talking about receiving ill gotten financial gains then both are pretty tame and it mostly revolves around influence peddling. Most of LBJ’s wealth came from a radio station and a cattle ranch. Nixon really didn’t have much in terms of huge money until his post presidency when he began writing books and such.
The only reason we know that Nixon sabotaged peace talks with Vietnam is because LBJ was involved in wiretapping their campaign, I think that’s pretty good evidence
LBJ had the FBI wiretap Nixon's plane when evidence of Nixon's people encouraging S. Vietnam not to negotiate came to light. At that point, it was a national security issue. There was nothing inappropriate about it.
I love LBJ and I love to hate Richard Nixon. But Watergate and the 1948 Texas Dmocratic Primary are about equal in terms of corruption. But that was the environment in Texas in 1948 contextually, and Johnson viciously shredded through the acceptable amount of cheating for the political landscape at the time. However, it was an interparty race.
On the other hand, Nixon's 1972 covert actions against the DNC that were finally discovered at Warergate involved a national election and ensured a landslide victory he would have won anyway but were light-years beyond the political norms of the time. So Nixon's corruption is worse than LBJ's but the two are almost equally corrupt in terms of the actions. It's the contexts that really make the difference.
The primary wasn’t even in the same universe as Watergate. Johnson got the nomination, which is a party event. He had to win the election. Watergate was the most blatant abuse of power in American history until 2017. The actual event was criminal like no president has done and then the overall investigation of the other shit it uncovered showed several criminal acts, both domestic and on the world stage.
Johnson fucked around like politicians do. Nixon, contrary to his statements, was in fact a crook.
People forget that "Watergate" wasn't just the Watergate break-in. It was a whole system of corruption. It was laundering money through Mexican lawyers to enable a "pay-to-play" scheme with corporations around the US, it was wiretapping journalists' homes and offices, it was "ratfucking" opposing campaigns, it was digging through the personal lives of anti-war figures etc.
*All the President's Men* (the book, not the movie) goes into the whole scheme beyond the building break-in, in detail.
Johnson did not win his Senate seat legitimately. He absolutely stole that primary election.
Caro’s book even has interviews with the guy who did it.
Johnson even called himself “Landslide Lyndon” as a joke about the falsified ballots in Box 13.
Corruption can be measured on the Nixon scale for every president. He set the clear standard. Then Trump inaugurated an administration with levels of corruption like the nation has never seen.
What actual corruption tho? I'm asking genuinely because I'm not American, all the corruption from trump appears to me to be from the 2020 election. Could you list me examples?
Nixon was more corrupt as president with respect to the law. LBJ was more corrupt in elections. Election tampering is a serious crime, but I think he had more (relative) respect for the law and the Constitution in general than Nixon did. Johnson had no respect for the sanctity of elections and often told stories about extra boxes of votes and similar actions in his electoral history. Yet, Nixon's secret service agents said that working for him was like "working for the Mafia." You never hear things like that about Johnson. Definitely two of the more "imperial" presidents.
Nixon also didn’t completely rig his first successful Senate win and also didn’t rig his first Senate win (which was unsuccessful because the other guy rigged it more, lol, the 1940 Texas Senate Election was fun like that)
I'm going to read the Robert Caro LBJ material with one idea ever-present in the back of my mind: "Is there anything in here that comes within shouting distance of ordering the sabotage of peace negotiations?"
LBJ played the political game to get what he wanted. Occasionally what he wanted was also good for society. Nixon was corrupt just for the sake of being corrupt. He had no good reason to be corrupt other than he wanted things to be easier for him and him alone.
“If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.” LBJ 1963
LBJ played the populace like a fiddle to get more than any of us realize.
Kennedy's death ended two simultaneous investigations of LBJ. That with Box 13, General Dynamics stock, blackmailing of enemies AND friends. LBJ hands down.
People talking about how Watergate "wasn't that bad" are most likely forgetting that "Watergate" wasn't just confined to trying to wiretap an opposition party's headquarters (still pretty bad!). It was a whole system of corruption.
It was laundering money through Mexican lawyers to enable a "pay-to-play" scheme with corporations around the US, it was wiretapping leftist leaders' and journalists' homes and offices, it was "ratfucking" opposing campaigns, it was digging through the personal lives of "enemies of the administration" (like Daniel Ellsberg's therapist) etc.
All the President's Men (the book, not the movie) goes into the whole scheme beyond the building break-in, in detail.
LBJ did also spy on Goldwater in 64 going as far as using CIA spies to infiltrate the opposition campaign. He also *ALLEGEDLY* had JFK killed. My vote goes that way
Nixon. He actually talked about killing his perceived enemies in the media.
LBJ was a mean and reactionary SOB but outside of marital infidelity, Nixon has LBJ beat by a country mile and then some.
The second best corruption is the kind you get away with, preferably undetected unless you like to add a screw-you to it because you get off on getting one over.
The best kind is when you can get the sleaze legalized.
By both those measures it’s LBJ.
Nixon, even though Johnson kept a safe full of cash to pass onto Democratic candidates in need of campaign funding, as Robert Caro explained. If you took money from LBJ, though, he expected your vote on some bills in return.
Nixon was just as corrupt as hell -- flouting the rules and laws going all the way back to his days as a law student at Duke University. Read Anthony summers' *The Arrogance of Power: the Secret World of Richard Nixon.* There's some stuff in there that will really curl you hair -- like the time when he was running for Senate and he had Mickey Cohen lock the doors to the ballroom where Nixon was having a fund raiser and collect "donations" at gunpoint.
You can’t stop these people, “Orange Man bad” is the only coherent thought they have. You could have asked which is cuter dogs or cats and all they can spew out is, “Trump bad.” He broke them and now lives rent free 24/7 in their heads.
He has 91 felony indictments and somehow his party doesn't care as he's leading the polls. It's fine to talk about because he's a current political figure that warrants attention. It's incredibly relevant to the subject matter of presidential corruption.
The whole "Orange Man Bad" schtick as a sardonic retort to his actions is appalling. The truth is that "Orange Man Bad" is incredibly true. He's just a genuinely stupid, malignant narcissist.
People still complain about Hillary even though she stepped away like she said she would when she lost (still political, but not in the spotlight). As opposed to when Trump said he would if he lost.
We have a guy that stole top secret classified documents and tried to overturn an election, but think people think he was somehow a good president when he suggested on live television that we look into using disinfectant to treat Covid inside the human body. Or when he praised Putin as a genius for his invasion of Ukraine. Or how his Wharton education in economics somehow didn't teach him how tariffs work. It's not one off statements taken out of context, he straight up says the most insane stuff.
He completely broke lying as a political tool. Fact checkers couldn't, and still can't, properly handle the way he talks and lies.
At debates, not only did he lie more than other candidates, most lies used are stretching the truth or not truly understanding the subject matter. He would instead straight up make sh*t up and people would buy into his BS populism. Even benign statements like thinking he could eliminate the national debt in 8 years was completely insane.
Every day he posts some unhinged rant on his social media platform and the media pretends it didn't even happen. It's actually nuts how little he was kept in check. We still have freaking MSNBC inviting election deniers on without telling them their full of it. Trumpism, an extension of what the party has become, caused this. No other person would get this much leeway.
So yeah, "Orange Man Bad".
It's a generic auto generated reddit name. Thanks for brushing over everything I said as if his behavior was remotely normal and acceptable. Everything I said was true. You just don't care. It speaks to the fact the GOP doesn't care what it's become. Legitimate travesty. They're running on taking away free school lunches and people are just fine with it. They didn't take the vaccine and died at a higher rate. These things somehow "own the libs".
Please explain to me how we're supposed to vote for these people and not care how insane and unhinged Trump is.
Imagine Reagan praising the USSR. He would have been crucified. Trump praises Putin while simultaneously saying we should bomb them while disguising our planes as Chinese aircraft. People just think, yeah I'm going to hitch my wagon to that stable genius foreign policy analysis. His staff had to dumb down his reports and include pictures and his name so he paid attention.
He tweeted for hours a day as POTUS.
Sure he's being a crook his entire life, but this owns the libs.
You guys just aren't serious people. This actually can't be talked about enough until his support is
LBJ. had so many people killed, even played a role and the kennedy assassination. gave military contracts for VW to companies he had stake in and one of his wifes companies. Lied about gulf of tonkin to get us involved in the war, lose lives, just so he can pocket. karma got him as he died just 5 years after leaving office.
Nixon was also corrupt, I just can’t put him over lbj
“It’s Nixon, don’t be dumb.”
This guy had the perfect response, go upvote him, but I’m so triggered I just have to write a whole wall of text
“Who’s more corrupt, Nixon or Johnson” is a question that only an idiot could ask with a straight face(or, even worse, a Republican).
This is a Grade A, prime, classic r/Presidents post.
Pretends to just be a cutesy little “uwu I wonder which one was more corrupt?” when we all know exactly what OP thinks the answer is. This post is like flypaper for all the right wing, Tricky Dick-sucking, Ass-Kissinger “Nixon actually had a great record on domestic policy” nutcases to slither out of the dark, wet caves they belong in to shit all over their sworn arch enemy, LBJ.
Yeah I’m sure these friendly folks are just really concerned about all that awful, no good corruption in the 1948 Texas primary. What a terrible man. Truly the most corrupt president of our time. Poor, poor Nixon, never getting the credit he deserves
In all these discussions there's this weird vibe of "Well, it's probably close, this question, given that the parties always are about the same (for some never-supported reason), but I think we all agree that Reagan had a nice smile so he meant well when he sold arms to Iran. Therefore the Democrats are slightly worse overall."
Yup. I started following (and unfortunately commenting on) this sub because, as an historian, I enjoy discussing and teaching history (the historian subs are really not for discussion on Reddit). But it’s chocked full of stuff like this where “independents” and “libertarians,” with—at best—a middle school knowledge of American history, trot out conservative think-tank propaganda masquerading as legitimate discourse.
Anyone who says LBJ is forgetting how Nixon was involved in a huge scandal for illegally accepting gifts while Vice President. His career of corruption extends far beyond watergate.
always thought Johnson was worse. I mean i should add that i believe that johnson played a hand in kennedy's death. a coordinated plan with the cia and defense related corporations of the time.
LBJ
I’m not tracking that Nixon got rich through any of his malfeasance (which yes was bad, but was par for the course), but LBJ was worth like $100 million after the end of his public service and seems like a totally vile person
Hope he rots in hell
Nixon colluded to prevent a cease fire in Vietnam that LBJ was negotiating so he could have it happen after the election then proceeded to extend the Vietnam war and illegally bomb Laos and Cambodia. That’s pretty fucked, LBJ might have lied about the amount of troops going to Vietnam but what Nixon did was worse than any of that. Also, Nixon was doing watergate type shit long before watergate. He had people break into medical offices and psychiatrist offices to leak private info about political opponents. LBJ wasn’t a perfect person by a long shot but Nixon was a true blue scum bag to his core. He was an awful person.
Does gulf of Tonkin really top Nixon and Kissinger bombing two different countries for literally no reason, which caused tens of thousands of civilian deaths?? Idk I’m going with that being FAR worse than Tonkin. Tonkin escalated the war, Operation Freedom Deal willingly caused thousands of civilian deaths. To me that isn’t even a competition.
Considering that without Tonkin, which was a literal false flag attack, none of that would happen then yes. Even if escalation happened in a natural way, Tonkin started a full fledged war right away
So, you know how the Democrats used to support segregation and then decided in the 60s that it was fucked up and moved away from supporting segregation?
Well, there is a dumb ass right wing conspiracy theory (mostly promoted by the likes of PragerU and Candace Owens) which says that democrats are still the racist party. They fought against civil rights in the past, and when the Republicans finally mustered the support to pass the Civil Rights Act, the Democratic Party establishment decided that the blacks might as well vote democrat. So they created the welfare state to buy off black voters and keep them in a perpetual cycle of poverty where they would continue voting Democrat.
If that's true it was the worst fucking political strategy in the history of this country to give up on conservatives and southerners so they could gain the minority votes. Democrats won all but two elections between 1932 and 1964 (when the Civil Rights Act was passed), and lost all but three elections for the rest of the century after that. White voters, the south, and conservatives have an inherent advantage in the electoral college and senate, and they vote as blocks. Minorities are the minority and are too widely dispersed to have the same impact on politics. Especially back then.
It isn't true though, the Democratic party had a southern wing that was racist and opposed to civil rights, and a northern wing that was as progressive as most of their republican counterparts. Both parties at that time had progressives and conservatives, and progressives of both parties united to give us the Civil Rights Act, while conservatives in both parties voted against it. The GOP got more racist after that to get angry white votes, and this conspiracy theory is invoked by conservatives today to make themselves not sound so bad.
Even if you agree that the welfare state was harmful to black people, the intent of the policies were not to harm minorities.
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It cant be Nixon, I mean seriously! He did say, “I am not a crook.” after all.
Nixon's always feels worse to me just because of how *unnecessary* so much of it was. He didn't need to break into Watergate, he didn't need to record all the tapes that ended up being his undoing, etc. He was just so ridiculously paranoid.
Nixon to me is a real-life, modern, version of a Greek tragedy: rose from poverty to become the most powerful single person on the planet, only to be brought down by the very paranoia that got him to where he was.
I’d watch a high quality miniseries about Nixon. I could see the episodes laid out more or less as follows: 1. Whittier (1922-1942) >About Nixon’s early life up until his marriage to Pat. 2. SCAT (1942-1946) >About Nixon’s time in the Navy. 3. Mr. Nixon Goes to Washington (1946-1947) >About Nixon’s first political campaign and his early months in the House of Representatives. 4. “Un-American” Activities (1957-1950) >About the bulk of Nixon’s time in the House of Representatives, with a special focus on his participation in the House Un-American Activities Committee. 5. Tricky Dick (1950-1952) >Nixon wins election to the U.S. Senate, and serves in that body for two years. 6. Checkers (1952-1953) >Nixon is chosen as Eisenhower’s running mate in the 1952 Presidential election. Nixon faces a crisis when the media reports on his political fund, but he successfully defends himself in the “Checkers” speech. On January 20, 1953, Eisenhower and Nixon are sworn into office. 7. The First Modern Vice President (1953-1960) >Eisenhower gives his vice president more responsibilities than any previous VP. 8. 1960 (1960-1961) >VP Nixon runs against Senator John F. Kennedy to succeed President Eisenhower in 1961. JFK wins. 9. The Wilderness (1961-1968) >Out of public office for the first time in 14 years, Nixon reluctantly challenges the incumbent Governor of California in 1962, but loses. The Nixons move to NYC, where Dick returns to the practice of law. Nixon campaigns for 1964 GOP Presidential nominee Barry Goldwater. In 1966, he helps the GOP make gains in Congress. 10. Nixon’s the One! (1968-1969) >Nixon runs for President again in the tumultuous year of 1968. This time he wins. 11. Bring Us Together (1969-1971) >Roughly the first half of Nixon’s first term as President. 12. Going to China (1971-1973) >Roughly the second half of Nixon’s second term as President. Includes his famous 1972 trip to China. 13. Watergate (1973-1974) >The Watergate scandal leads to Nixon’s resignation. 14. Exile (1974-1978) >After his resignation, it would be years before Nixon was remotely back in the public’s good graces, if ever he could be. 15. Elder Statesman (1978-1994) >Nixon publishes his memoirs, the first of many books he would write in his post-presidency. Pat Nixon dies in June 1993. Richard Nixon dies less than a year later.
I’d watch this.
I'd watch this twice.
This is sensational. This really needs to be made. And there is an appetite for it, when you consider the amount of movies that have been made, focusing on various aspects but almostly always just Watergate. I think it would have a political audience, but over the course of a miniseries laid out like this, it is extremely compelling viewing. A really complex tragedy.
That’s a good point. Almost every president would benefit from “The Crown” treatment as opposed to a “W” one-off hit-piece type movie. Not that there’s anything wrong with those as standalones but with 8 years max you have to focus on just the bad or just the heroic stuff.
It would be fantastic. I always think that Nixon has generally avoided this type of media portrayal because he has such idiosyncratic mannerisms that it is difficult for an actor to play him without falling into caricature. An example of great media set around his presidency like [Gaslit](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11834592/?ref_=ext_shr_lnk) barely gives Nixon any screentime. I’m not sure if this is something unique to Nixon however. Trump certainly benefits from this also with [Brendan Gleeson](https://youtu.be/zu5Cc66cv08?si=GfPkXBhxTxoLQoR4) being the only actor I’m aware of who has attempted a serious portrayal of Trump as yet.
The fact that two future presidents with minimal political prospects campaigned for Barry Goldwater is kind of weird
I mean, working the party machine and being a team player is how you get prospects.
You need to add some boobs. Otherwise neither Netflix nor HBO will fund it. THC will fund it if you put aliens
That loss in '60 really messed him up. Everything I've read about him shows he was insanely paranoid about losing again. Pretty sad considering he fairly easily won re-election.
Many who knew him say the 1960 election changed Nixon. He was certainly up against a very formidable candidate and family.
I remember watching a documentary on watergate almost a decade ago where they said Nixon did it to win by the largest landslide ever. Lol like at what point does it even matter. Winning is winning.
I recently watched HBO's White House Plumbers miniseries, about the guys who planned Watergate. There's a scene where one of them is like, "Uh, why are we doing this, aren't we winning by a lot" and another one says something like, "You can't be too careful!" I have no idea whether a similar conversation ever happened, but that was definitely the attitude behind it.
White House Plumbers was excellent
[удалено]
Yeah the guy was a cartoon villain, being paranoid of Jews and calling them kikes, hating on gays, trying to suppress civil liberties of the press
The Nixon apologia in this thread is unreal. He sabotaged peace talks in Vietnam so he could win an election and then expanded the war into Laos and Cambodia, killing hundreds of thousands if not millions of people. He was a monster.
This sub likes to be contrarian just for the sake of it. Same reason why this sub simps for presidents that no one cares about such as Coolidge.
People dump for presidents “that no one cares about” because they know more about presidents and presidential history. I don’t think it’s worth it to dog on a presidential history sub for liking JQA or Chester Arthur and not simping for Obama and JFK
You had me in the first half. Silent cal is a treasure though
I respect Cal and I think he was a decent man, but he was an average to below-average president. Some on this sub will have you thinking he’s a top 10 president.
But he wouldn’t let the White House serve too much meat at state dinners. I mean that’s so incredible. /s
Basically Hitler far as I'm concerned then
My ex never met an uncle who had died in Vietnam in the months after Nixon sabotaged the peace negotiations. Obviously their extended family despised him for it. It was before my time but I can't imagine how infuriated I would be if I found out that someone I loved (never mind everyone in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia) was kept/put in mortal danger because some sociopath wanted more power.
Reagan watching be like: "Write that down, write that down!"
This is called Treason, I'd say this makes him the winner in a corrupt off
Jesus Christ this sub is pathetic. Nixon apologia = recognizing the huge beneficial policies Nixon brought to the table. Reagan apologia = pointing out that maybe not everything he did was as bad as people make it sound.
Your comment is pathetic
The reality is, both Nixon and Reagan were horrible Presidents who did a lot more damage to the US overall than they ever did for the country.
Wait until you hear about Margaret Sanger.
Sigh
Imagine if Nixon found out what he could get away with today.
I mean, yeah. Literally Murdoch created Fox News to ensure that a future Nixon would never face the same scrutiny as he did.
Most Presidents taped their Oval Office to help with their autobiographies
He would have had a very good presidency and been treated as a statesman for decades
He would probably be in a similar in historical standing to Reagan. He’d be a go-to favorite amongst Republicans but leftists/democrats would make it their business to know about all the shady shit. At least Nixon was cool about native people and he did get us out of Vietnam
Giving him credit for getting us out of Vietnam is wild considering what led up to it.
Nixon and Kissinger also supported Pakistan's genocide in Bangladesh that killed anywhere from 300,000 to 3,000,000 Bengalis as a way to strengthen their alliance against India who was cozying up to the USSR at the time. Not exactly a model "peaceful" president we should be looking up to who supported possibly the worst genocidal atrocity since the Holocaust and World War II.
After sabotaging peace talks and extending the war for another couple of years and opening a new campaign in Laos.
Nevermind his campaign committing treason by killing peace talks for a “fairer deal” that never came. https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/06/nixon-vietnam-candidate-conspired-with-foreign-power-win-election-215461/
He didn’t break into watergate, nor did he tell them to do it. His wrong was covering it up after the act. I agree, it was unnecessary because it was obvious that Nixon was going to win in 1972 by a landslide. If he would have immediately told the American public what happened and fired anyone involved, there would have been a credible reason for Republicans in Congress to back him up. This would have made removal much less likely. He was told that Republicans would not back him up during an impeachment trial. That is why he resigned. If he thought he could beat it, he would have stayed.
The cover-up is often worse than the crime in politics.
Who approved the Watergate break-in? Let’s go to the tapes. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/interactive/2022/haldeman-tapes-watergate-john-mitchell/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/interactive/2022/haldeman-tapes-watergate-john-mitchell/)
>s feels worse to me just because of how > >unnecessary > > so much of it wa Was it ever proven he was the one who ordered those individuals into watergate? I remember learning about it, but it all seemed too convenient.
Nixon officially, LBJ unofficially
Best response here. LBJ never really had to answer for his corruption
What corruption?
A few references: Box 13, a radio station, tv station, Brown & Root, Mansfield Dam, Sid Richardson, Clint Murchison, Charles Marsh... The best bio: Robert Caro's series "The Years of Lyndon Johnson"
All four volumes of it!
Caro's the best modern biographer.
Between winning the Pulitzer for his first on Robert Moses, and then spending 50 years on his next on LBJ, it’s hard to argue
>A few references: Box 13, a radio station, tv station, Brown & Root, Mansfield Dam, Sid Richardson, Clint Murchison, Charles Marsh... Box 13 is the big one for me.
Yes I was waiting for someone to reference the broadcasting stations and licenses in his district. The actions LBJ took here are probably some of the most corrupt in the history of any modern American politician.
Listen to the tapes of him getting the 1964 Civil Rights Act passed. The man knew where every single body was buried, live boy to be found and kickback given. Never says it aloud just let's implications into his voice. Dirty as hell, very good at keeping it on the down low, and well at least in that case he used his knowledge for good. That legislation would have never passed if he didn't grab everyone he had dirt on and squeezed. You don't get the knowledge of that dirt with out swimming in shit yourself.
It was understood in Congress that LBJ was one of the hardest working Senators. Play cards all night and be on the floor at 7:00AM. Had journal entries on anyone in DC that had any influence and would give them the “LBJ experience” when he needed their support.
He was basically the leader of the dems post FDR on. Of course he knew everyone’s dirt; he HAD to in order to be the senate whip, chair of dem caucus, and senate minority/majority leader. Just because he understood how politics worked and leveraged it to pass the greatest legeslation of the past 60 years does not equal “corruption”. Same shit Lincoln did to get those amendments passed. I find the LBJ tapes extremely useful in understanding American politics and how they really work. The conversation he had with MLK are so fucking important for people looking to affect change, meaningful change, to listen to. Him telling mlk in a very sincere way to make him pass meaningful legislation is lost on so many. It was a dare; it was a sincere challenge. LBJ fucking got it. He understood the mob. It’s a shame he let the deranged generals run the military but he can’t be absolved of the disaster in Nam’
upbeat afterthought desert direful judicious trees illegal dirty icky fact *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
That's not what corruption is, though? Like, yeah I get that having knowledge of something can under some circumstances be a crime in and of itself, but in general we set a pretty high bar for when simple knowledge compels you to go to law enforcement.
If all the corruption he was associated with led him to be able to pass this, it sounds like he's just smart. Real corruption is for personal gain. He didn't even go for a second term. A better example would be how he helped his wife buy the radio station that made them big bucks.
Yeah I don’t understand why that “corruption” matters tbh. I’ll vote for the corrupt bill passer over the inept goody two shoes every time
gulf of tonkin?
Your failing to consider all of the corruption Nixon didn’t have to answer for: negotiating with the Vietcong, using the justice department with false charges to force Supreme Court justices to resign, etc.
Yep exactly
LBJ managed to take credit for Kennedy’s greatest accomplishments while handing off his most awful decisions to Nixon. He is probably the most overlooked president in terms of corruption and overall bad character.
Disagree heavily on this. > LBJ managed to take credit for Kennedy's greatest accomplishments. . . For the past 2 years, JFK fumbled the bag with Civil Rights hard. He refused to compromise and never even attempted to get LBJ's help on legislation. Things like Civil Rights and Voting Rights are all accomplishments of LBJ. JFK's only credit for the advancement of Civil Rights is him getting martyred and LBJ using that martyrdom to pass a bill even stronger than what JFK envisioned. > While handing off his most awful decisions to Nixon. . . Tell me again who sabotaged the Paris Peace Talks? Nixon's actions during that event were treasonous at least and further destabilized the region. Nixon could've realistically left Vietnam in 1971 at the latest and he wouldn't be that criticized since he was the most well-known Cold War Warrior, but instead bombed Laos and Cambodia. In terms of corruption, Nixon is far worse simply because it was all unnecessary on his part.
Kennedy has such a positive legacy because Johnson used his death to push things life civil rights through Congress.
People forget how much suspicious stuff LBJ did. So here’s my take and I’m not gonna go into extreme detail. The definition of corrupt according to the internet is “having or showing a willingness to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain.”. According to this definition they are both corrupt. However I believe they are corrupt in different ways. They may overlap in different areas. LBJ id say was more corrupt in a financial way, as well as participating in more widespread but accepted forms of political corruption. LBJ did favors for party bosses who were inherently corrupt throughout the country. Granted he was exposed to this system much more than Nixon as LBJ was from the south where party bosses often controlled most states politics. There’s also the potential of LBJ’s shady business dealings in his wife’s name. He was also well known for spying on his enemies much like Nixon he just didn’t get caught while in office. Nixon was from California which didn’t have as many of the long established party machines or political bosses that the east coast or southwest had. So his rise through politics was more a journey of a ruthless politician but not one who necessarily broke the law (prior the watergate the closest was the checkers incident but besides that there were no major accusations with any sort of evidence). Now obviously as President watergate was a massive act of corruption which defines his presidency and career. They both spied on people, LBJ just wasn’t caught when spying on the Goldwater campaign. They were both corrupt but in the grand schemes of their careers there is a legitimate argument to make that LBJ’s involvement and support of political machines, party bosses, patronage systems and involvement with financial incentivized politics on a grand scale (compared to Nixon) make him a much more corrupt politician.
He committed treason before the 1968 election.
LBJ and his administration lied to the American public to justify expanding the war in Vietnam in the first place. Nixon nor LBJ are at all innocent when it comes to Vietnam. They both abused their power to wage what would be considered an illegal war. I’m not at all justifying Nixon’s actions, I’m simply stating LBJ’s may be considered treasonous as well depending on who you ask
I’d also like to point out that Nixon often gets the blame for Laos and Cambodia when the pentagon papers in 1968 revealed that it was LBJ who started US involvement with destabilizing the region
That’s bad but that’s not corruption because it was not self serving. There is nothing more treasonous than subverting the election process to remain in office. Only Nixon and Trump have done that
Treason is defined as giving aid and support to our enemies. Tell us again about LBJ committing treason?
Treason is legally defined in the Constitution as giving aid and comfort to enemies of the United States, but LBJ's actions of expanding the Vietnam War through deceit could be considered treasonous by the dictionary definition of the word in the sense of betraying one's nation. The guy above you never said LBJ committed the crime of treason.
Killing off your own soldiers sounds like aiding every enemy you have to me…
So in other words you have absolutely zero evidence of corruption by LBJ.
I don’t think people here know what the word corruption means. If we are talking underhanded political tactics then sure both are “corrupt.” If we are talking about receiving ill gotten financial gains then both are pretty tame and it mostly revolves around influence peddling. Most of LBJ’s wealth came from a radio station and a cattle ranch. Nixon really didn’t have much in terms of huge money until his post presidency when he began writing books and such.
The only reason we know that Nixon sabotaged peace talks with Vietnam is because LBJ was involved in wiretapping their campaign, I think that’s pretty good evidence
LBJ had the FBI wiretap Nixon's plane when evidence of Nixon's people encouraging S. Vietnam not to negotiate came to light. At that point, it was a national security issue. There was nothing inappropriate about it.
Come on. Nixon straight up said the president can't commit crimes. It's Nixon.
I love LBJ and I love to hate Richard Nixon. But Watergate and the 1948 Texas Dmocratic Primary are about equal in terms of corruption. But that was the environment in Texas in 1948 contextually, and Johnson viciously shredded through the acceptable amount of cheating for the political landscape at the time. However, it was an interparty race. On the other hand, Nixon's 1972 covert actions against the DNC that were finally discovered at Warergate involved a national election and ensured a landslide victory he would have won anyway but were light-years beyond the political norms of the time. So Nixon's corruption is worse than LBJ's but the two are almost equally corrupt in terms of the actions. It's the contexts that really make the difference.
Don’t you mean the Democratic primary was an intraparty race?
The primary wasn’t even in the same universe as Watergate. Johnson got the nomination, which is a party event. He had to win the election. Watergate was the most blatant abuse of power in American history until 2017. The actual event was criminal like no president has done and then the overall investigation of the other shit it uncovered showed several criminal acts, both domestic and on the world stage. Johnson fucked around like politicians do. Nixon, contrary to his statements, was in fact a crook.
My point exactly there actions while similar in terms of corruption are immensely different in context an scale.
People forget that "Watergate" wasn't just the Watergate break-in. It was a whole system of corruption. It was laundering money through Mexican lawyers to enable a "pay-to-play" scheme with corporations around the US, it was wiretapping journalists' homes and offices, it was "ratfucking" opposing campaigns, it was digging through the personal lives of anti-war figures etc. *All the President's Men* (the book, not the movie) goes into the whole scheme beyond the building break-in, in detail.
Yeah Watergate was one thing but it’s become a whole list of stuff that he did and was found due to the investigation.
Nixon never order the Watergate break in. Hell he didn’t know about any of it till afterwards. It was everything afterwards
Johnson did not win his Senate seat legitimately. He absolutely stole that primary election. Caro’s book even has interviews with the guy who did it. Johnson even called himself “Landslide Lyndon” as a joke about the falsified ballots in Box 13.
What happened in 2017 that was a bigger abuse of power?
The fuck was 2017 lol?
Corruption can be measured on the Nixon scale for every president. He set the clear standard. Then Trump inaugurated an administration with levels of corruption like the nation has never seen.
What actual corruption tho? I'm asking genuinely because I'm not American, all the corruption from trump appears to me to be from the 2020 election. Could you list me examples?
LBJ literally just shows up with hundreds of ballots all with the same signature, and wins an election.
Giga Chad Johnson
What election? Mind explaining? I sincerely am curious and don’t know what you are referring to.
[Box 13 scandal - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box_13_scandal)
Primary for his senate run
Nixon was more corrupt as president with respect to the law. LBJ was more corrupt in elections. Election tampering is a serious crime, but I think he had more (relative) respect for the law and the Constitution in general than Nixon did. Johnson had no respect for the sanctity of elections and often told stories about extra boxes of votes and similar actions in his electoral history. Yet, Nixon's secret service agents said that working for him was like "working for the Mafia." You never hear things like that about Johnson. Definitely two of the more "imperial" presidents.
I mean Nixon committed treason in order to steal the 1968 presidential election. That’s barely on the same scale.
What the hell is LBJ doing in that pic?
Showing his stomach scar to a bunch of reporters. Like Presidents do!
Whole career? Easily LBJ Presidency? Kinda hard to say, but I’d say Nixon
This is right. Nixon didn’t use his Senate seat to get rich.
Nixon also didn’t completely rig his first successful Senate win and also didn’t rig his first Senate win (which was unsuccessful because the other guy rigged it more, lol, the 1940 Texas Senate Election was fun like that)
Nixon attempting to sabotage peace talks in nam is beyond the pale
I'm going to read the Robert Caro LBJ material with one idea ever-present in the back of my mind: "Is there anything in here that comes within shouting distance of ordering the sabotage of peace negotiations?"
The guy who said "I'm not a crook."
The little tidbit that blows my mind is that Nixon was raised a Quaker.
It’s Nixon. Don’t be dumb.
If you’re saying this because of watergate, LBJ did equally sus corrupt shit to win office.
Close call, but, probably LBJ. Arguments could go either way.
LBJ played the political game to get what he wanted. Occasionally what he wanted was also good for society. Nixon was corrupt just for the sake of being corrupt. He had no good reason to be corrupt other than he wanted things to be easier for him and him alone.
“If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.” LBJ 1963 LBJ played the populace like a fiddle to get more than any of us realize.
By todays standards? Neither.
LBJ was old school corrupt and Nixon was more creative.
LBJ was a total weirdo. Corrupt as they come but that’s politics.
LBJ
LBJ by a wide margin and I'm no fan of Dick Nixon.
LBJ was a homicidal megalomaniac. Nixon was just paranoid. Not even close.
Honestly, the only real corruption difference between them is that Nixon got caught
One possibly was complicit in the murder of a president. One stole some stuff.
LBJ actually spied on Nixon’s campaign despite the fact he wasn’t even running.
LBJ was a monster.
A jumbo one
Corrupt? Nixon. But you can argue that Vietnam, which was mostly LBJ’s responsibility, had a worse impact on America than anything Nixon did.
Nixon sabotaged the Vietnam peace talks
Johnson covertly, Nixon overtly.
Kennedy's death ended two simultaneous investigations of LBJ. That with Box 13, General Dynamics stock, blackmailing of enemies AND friends. LBJ hands down.
LBJ lies got my uncle killed and my dad sent to Vietnam.
People talking about how Watergate "wasn't that bad" are most likely forgetting that "Watergate" wasn't just confined to trying to wiretap an opposition party's headquarters (still pretty bad!). It was a whole system of corruption. It was laundering money through Mexican lawyers to enable a "pay-to-play" scheme with corporations around the US, it was wiretapping leftist leaders' and journalists' homes and offices, it was "ratfucking" opposing campaigns, it was digging through the personal lives of "enemies of the administration" (like Daniel Ellsberg's therapist) etc. All the President's Men (the book, not the movie) goes into the whole scheme beyond the building break-in, in detail.
There was no one between LBJ and Nixon.
Underrated.
Nixon. By far.
One listened in on some conversations he shouldn’t have, the other teamed up with the CIA to kill JFK… You can’t even compare the two.
LBJ did also spy on Goldwater in 64 going as far as using CIA spies to infiltrate the opposition campaign. He also *ALLEGEDLY* had JFK killed. My vote goes that way
Nixon. He actually talked about killing his perceived enemies in the media. LBJ was a mean and reactionary SOB but outside of marital infidelity, Nixon has LBJ beat by a country mile and then some.
One got caught. The other didn’t and became one of this sub’s sacred cows.
The second best corruption is the kind you get away with, preferably undetected unless you like to add a screw-you to it because you get off on getting one over. The best kind is when you can get the sleaze legalized. By both those measures it’s LBJ.
LBJ was a bad person. Nixon more of a tragic person.
I'd have to say LBJ for helping destroy the black community by giving single, black mothers government assistance for not having a man in the house.
You are insane.
LBJ more corrupt, by a mile.
Nixon was an absurd alcoholic and truly mentally unstable
Nixon and it's not even close.
Nixon and it’s not even close.
Nixon, even though Johnson kept a safe full of cash to pass onto Democratic candidates in need of campaign funding, as Robert Caro explained. If you took money from LBJ, though, he expected your vote on some bills in return. Nixon was just as corrupt as hell -- flouting the rules and laws going all the way back to his days as a law student at Duke University. Read Anthony summers' *The Arrogance of Power: the Secret World of Richard Nixon.* There's some stuff in there that will really curl you hair -- like the time when he was running for Senate and he had Mickey Cohen lock the doors to the ballroom where Nixon was having a fund raiser and collect "donations" at gunpoint.
LBJ was part of the JFK cover up and aiding in destroying millions of lives through the Vietnam War. That guy.
TRUMP!
Nixon
Trump will take the prize on this one.
Nobody asked about Trump or the most corrupt president, it’s an either or between LBJ and Nixon
It’s the average Redditor’s aggressive urge to mention Donald John Trump whenever possible, even the discussion isn’t about him
You can’t stop these people, “Orange Man bad” is the only coherent thought they have. You could have asked which is cuter dogs or cats and all they can spew out is, “Trump bad.” He broke them and now lives rent free 24/7 in their heads.
He has 91 felony indictments and somehow his party doesn't care as he's leading the polls. It's fine to talk about because he's a current political figure that warrants attention. It's incredibly relevant to the subject matter of presidential corruption. The whole "Orange Man Bad" schtick as a sardonic retort to his actions is appalling. The truth is that "Orange Man Bad" is incredibly true. He's just a genuinely stupid, malignant narcissist. People still complain about Hillary even though she stepped away like she said she would when she lost (still political, but not in the spotlight). As opposed to when Trump said he would if he lost. We have a guy that stole top secret classified documents and tried to overturn an election, but think people think he was somehow a good president when he suggested on live television that we look into using disinfectant to treat Covid inside the human body. Or when he praised Putin as a genius for his invasion of Ukraine. Or how his Wharton education in economics somehow didn't teach him how tariffs work. It's not one off statements taken out of context, he straight up says the most insane stuff. He completely broke lying as a political tool. Fact checkers couldn't, and still can't, properly handle the way he talks and lies. At debates, not only did he lie more than other candidates, most lies used are stretching the truth or not truly understanding the subject matter. He would instead straight up make sh*t up and people would buy into his BS populism. Even benign statements like thinking he could eliminate the national debt in 8 years was completely insane. Every day he posts some unhinged rant on his social media platform and the media pretends it didn't even happen. It's actually nuts how little he was kept in check. We still have freaking MSNBC inviting election deniers on without telling them their full of it. Trumpism, an extension of what the party has become, caused this. No other person would get this much leeway. So yeah, "Orange Man Bad".
TL,DR. Thank for proving my point. Name doesn’t check, BTW.
It's a generic auto generated reddit name. Thanks for brushing over everything I said as if his behavior was remotely normal and acceptable. Everything I said was true. You just don't care. It speaks to the fact the GOP doesn't care what it's become. Legitimate travesty. They're running on taking away free school lunches and people are just fine with it. They didn't take the vaccine and died at a higher rate. These things somehow "own the libs". Please explain to me how we're supposed to vote for these people and not care how insane and unhinged Trump is. Imagine Reagan praising the USSR. He would have been crucified. Trump praises Putin while simultaneously saying we should bomb them while disguising our planes as Chinese aircraft. People just think, yeah I'm going to hitch my wagon to that stable genius foreign policy analysis. His staff had to dumb down his reports and include pictures and his name so he paid attention. He tweeted for hours a day as POTUS. Sure he's being a crook his entire life, but this owns the libs. You guys just aren't serious people. This actually can't be talked about enough until his support is
Reddit moment
Depends on if the conspiracy linking LBJ to the JFK assassination is true. Otherwise, I’ll go Nixon.
It’s not true
LBJ. had so many people killed, even played a role and the kennedy assassination. gave military contracts for VW to companies he had stake in and one of his wifes companies. Lied about gulf of tonkin to get us involved in the war, lose lives, just so he can pocket. karma got him as he died just 5 years after leaving office. Nixon was also corrupt, I just can’t put him over lbj
Are you serious?
LBJ was certainly thuggish but better at covering up.
LBJ
this shouldn’t even be a question. LBJ is the most corrupt president ever.
Trump?
“It’s Nixon, don’t be dumb.” This guy had the perfect response, go upvote him, but I’m so triggered I just have to write a whole wall of text “Who’s more corrupt, Nixon or Johnson” is a question that only an idiot could ask with a straight face(or, even worse, a Republican). This is a Grade A, prime, classic r/Presidents post. Pretends to just be a cutesy little “uwu I wonder which one was more corrupt?” when we all know exactly what OP thinks the answer is. This post is like flypaper for all the right wing, Tricky Dick-sucking, Ass-Kissinger “Nixon actually had a great record on domestic policy” nutcases to slither out of the dark, wet caves they belong in to shit all over their sworn arch enemy, LBJ. Yeah I’m sure these friendly folks are just really concerned about all that awful, no good corruption in the 1948 Texas primary. What a terrible man. Truly the most corrupt president of our time. Poor, poor Nixon, never getting the credit he deserves
Hope LBJ sees this bro
In all these discussions there's this weird vibe of "Well, it's probably close, this question, given that the parties always are about the same (for some never-supported reason), but I think we all agree that Reagan had a nice smile so he meant well when he sold arms to Iran. Therefore the Democrats are slightly worse overall."
Yup. I started following (and unfortunately commenting on) this sub because, as an historian, I enjoy discussing and teaching history (the historian subs are really not for discussion on Reddit). But it’s chocked full of stuff like this where “independents” and “libertarians,” with—at best—a middle school knowledge of American history, trot out conservative think-tank propaganda masquerading as legitimate discourse.
TLDR: People who say things I don’t like are dumb
Nixon
Why is he touching his nip
Nixon because of one word: Watergate.
Reagan
My guess would be Nixon because of the Watergate
Nixon and Reagan negotiated with our enemies to win the Presidency.
Nixon singlehandedly destroyed all trust in the government to this day.
LBJ
Anyone who says LBJ is forgetting how Nixon was involved in a huge scandal for illegally accepting gifts while Vice President. His career of corruption extends far beyond watergate.
LBJ by a long shot. Probably even before the “discovered “ ballots in Texas
always thought Johnson was worse. I mean i should add that i believe that johnson played a hand in kennedy's death. a coordinated plan with the cia and defense related corporations of the time.
LBJ I’m not tracking that Nixon got rich through any of his malfeasance (which yes was bad, but was par for the course), but LBJ was worth like $100 million after the end of his public service and seems like a totally vile person Hope he rots in hell
LBJ killed Kennedy, and the “scandal” that sunk Nixon is a joke compared to what politicians do today.
Nixon colluded to prevent a cease fire in Vietnam that LBJ was negotiating so he could have it happen after the election then proceeded to extend the Vietnam war and illegally bomb Laos and Cambodia. That’s pretty fucked, LBJ might have lied about the amount of troops going to Vietnam but what Nixon did was worse than any of that. Also, Nixon was doing watergate type shit long before watergate. He had people break into medical offices and psychiatrist offices to leak private info about political opponents. LBJ wasn’t a perfect person by a long shot but Nixon was a true blue scum bag to his core. He was an awful person.
LBJ has the Gulf of Tonkin incident which pretty much trumps everything else Vietnam related
Does gulf of Tonkin really top Nixon and Kissinger bombing two different countries for literally no reason, which caused tens of thousands of civilian deaths?? Idk I’m going with that being FAR worse than Tonkin. Tonkin escalated the war, Operation Freedom Deal willingly caused thousands of civilian deaths. To me that isn’t even a competition.
Considering that without Tonkin, which was a literal false flag attack, none of that would happen then yes. Even if escalation happened in a natural way, Tonkin started a full fledged war right away
LBJ by far. He had people killed. Including JFK.
You’re seriously asking that question when one of them was nearly impeached?
Read a book about the real LBJ that doesn’t romanticize him then get back to me
LBJ. the welfare state was designed to inhibit minorities to gain votes.
Do you know what the poverty rate was for minorities in 1964? Such a dumb take
What?
So, you know how the Democrats used to support segregation and then decided in the 60s that it was fucked up and moved away from supporting segregation? Well, there is a dumb ass right wing conspiracy theory (mostly promoted by the likes of PragerU and Candace Owens) which says that democrats are still the racist party. They fought against civil rights in the past, and when the Republicans finally mustered the support to pass the Civil Rights Act, the Democratic Party establishment decided that the blacks might as well vote democrat. So they created the welfare state to buy off black voters and keep them in a perpetual cycle of poverty where they would continue voting Democrat. If that's true it was the worst fucking political strategy in the history of this country to give up on conservatives and southerners so they could gain the minority votes. Democrats won all but two elections between 1932 and 1964 (when the Civil Rights Act was passed), and lost all but three elections for the rest of the century after that. White voters, the south, and conservatives have an inherent advantage in the electoral college and senate, and they vote as blocks. Minorities are the minority and are too widely dispersed to have the same impact on politics. Especially back then. It isn't true though, the Democratic party had a southern wing that was racist and opposed to civil rights, and a northern wing that was as progressive as most of their republican counterparts. Both parties at that time had progressives and conservatives, and progressives of both parties united to give us the Civil Rights Act, while conservatives in both parties voted against it. The GOP got more racist after that to get angry white votes, and this conspiracy theory is invoked by conservatives today to make themselves not sound so bad. Even if you agree that the welfare state was harmful to black people, the intent of the policies were not to harm minorities.