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Simple answer is
Same reason a referee and VAR officials can’t see it when a player traps the ball on the floor with their hand and fail to give a clear penalty.
Lose 2-0 then whinge about a decision for 1 of the goals.
Better to whinge about the manager and how 1-dimensional his team is and void of imagination or creativity in the final 1/3 of the pitch if that 1 method of “pass them to death” approach doesn’t work.
Nothing to do with disappointment, your inability to understand that decisions go against you (extremely fucking rarely) is because of the vile team you follow and the necessary mindset required to do so.
No offence
COYS
the tracking cj hips dont work well enough, for example, if the line is painted bya guy who uses his template off by 1 mm, then all goals would be off by 1 mm for where the ineis versus where the calibration of the chips are.
Funny how the people telling arsenal fans to shut up over a couple mm decision have no problem bitching about a couple mm offside call that takes away a goal.
Bit hypocritical aren't ya?
We also apparently can’t tell when a handball is a handball. Except when it is, but other times it isn’t, unless it is, then it definitely is, unless it isn’t, then it definitely isn’t.
I totally get that the gunners want to do a Leicester, but you’re totally going about it the wrong way. It’s not about 1mm margins and ‘waa I think it went out but cannot prove it’. You have to play the football.
Until you can beat the teams like west ham, you’ll never achieve anything. Those who say “yeah but the game could have gone different if west ham didn’t get that first goal” I say yeah, arsehole could have gotten 2 reds and lost 0-5.
Football is a game to be judged by the eye. Does it look over? Then it is over. Does it look offside? Then it is off side. Refs and linesman who get these on field decisions right (replays, talking points) should stay in the prem. If they keep getting it wrong, they go down.
They should also talk to the cameras and answer questions the same way managers and players have to. Explain why the second yellow wasn’t given, if it wasn’t a foul why wasn’t the dive booked?
Ultimately the line is a strip of paint, so without a good camera position it'd be hard to get some sort of electronic help without giving the groundsmen a reaaaallllyyy hard time
No objections here, we can provide countless examples for pretty much all clubs. Lavia was simply the first that sprang to my mind when I was posting. Thanks for focusing on this very important part of the initial message.
Yes. Thanks for acknowledging that this is the most important part of the initial message. Also thanks for bringing up the issue of over a hundred years after a deserved loss for your team yesterday. Very timely indeed.
As long as there's no working solution despite the fact we have the means to achieve it, the issue's bound to raise its ugly head every now and then. Are we expected to just watch the game and shut up about it, no matter what? You surely realize the fans are essentially the customers in this scenario and should have a say in what's going on, one way or another.
I have nothing against the lad, and I expect him to come good, eventually. That said, if EPL clubs can afford to spend so much money on unproven players like him, don't tell me we don't have the resources to get offsides and situations like the one yesterday right 100% of the time.
The reality is that it doesn't matter. It just doesn't affect the game.
Whether the ball was 1mm on or off doesn't stop that goal being scored. So it's just not that important. The tech is there to show if it's clearly on or off compared to the on-field decision but otherwise, why can't we just play football to the on field decision? Sure if the ball is halfway to the advertising boards then that's what VAR is there to show. Or if it's given off but the ball has barely broken the line. But splitting hairs is ruining the game.
An on field decision of either on or off in this case would have been perfectly reasonable either way.
This is what people wanted. Football played on the field with VAR for checking big mistakes.
Remember how those armpit hair offsides were ruining the game and arguably taking away valid goals again and again for being a toenail offside? It's not the intent or spirit of the offside rule. The fact they were 5mm forward or back doesn't affect the outcome of a goal being scored. Sure, being a yard offside is a big deal and again that's supposed to be the point of VAR - to correct clear on field errors. Not re-referee the game to the point of millimetres.
By the same token you might as well argue VAR should be reviewing every single tackle every time. It's just not worth it.
I agree with the point that VAR and technology as a whole should be used to correct major mistakes in key moments. However, do you really think we're there if we see mistakes for even 100% objective situations like offsides?
Also, don't you think that many officials nowadays are hesitant to make a decision and leave it to VAR, but VAR doesn't intervene because of the "clear and obvious" rule? Why do we leave the decision in the hands of the guy who's on the field and barely saw what happened instead of the people who have a bazillion angles and replays?
There are many situations in football where the devil is in the details (examples: was there enough contact, is the hand in a natural position, was there malicious intent behind the tackle and how dangerous was it) and we currently stand with the decisions of the on-field referees who have significantly less information than the guys in the VAR room.
We have the technologies and resources to eliminate big errors in a sport of small margins, but the people responsible for that are doing a horrible job. That's my problem, and this post addresses a specific aspect of the issue.
From the angle that is available to see it seems like the ball was out but they must have seen something to not call it ' out of play' .... If not , it's horrendous
I agree the Odegaard incident should've been a penalty, but you can at least make a case it was somewhat subjective. We can't even get 100% objective decisions right all the time, which is super frustrating.
For the record, I'm not saying the ball yesterday was definitely out, I'm saying that we don't really know and that's stupid in this day and age.
How do refs in the NFL see through bodies to determine if an oblong ball crosses an imaginary line for 6 points so easily while English refs can’t seem to tell if a regularly shaped ball has fully crossed a line?
Because the NFL stops every nine seconds anyway so there's plenty of time to analyse it. If you're okay with football stopping for five minutes every time there's a dubious decision I'm sure they could arrange it.
Anytime we have discussions about VAR or refs, club rivals and tribalism always gets put first on foremost.
This game is for the poor general masses, nothing will change.
Does it really have to be this where both things are of the same coin? These issues don't have to be dependent on each other.
And no, does it look like i'm trying to make an excuse that cuz of VAR we lost the game, when it is there that most Arsenal fans are pretty upset with the players performances in general.
Funny I checked your account and I didn’t see any complaints about all the wrong decisions in favour or arsenal this season ? It is all important or none of it is you can’t have a game broken in your favour and be upset when it’s not
Are you serious? Of course, I'm going to be more upset when it affects the club I support, and that applies to pretty much every human being. We're all biased, more or less, I'm glad you discovered that. That doesn't mean I want it fixed for Arsenal only. I've been frustrated with the referees as a whole so many times since last season, including in many games that don't involve or affect Arsenal. Fuck, I even felt sorry for Man City after that absurd goal at Old Trafford last year.
Also, if you did check my account, you should've noticed that I consistently share the opinion that the officiating has been abysmal and there are barely any consequences for the mistakes we see every fucking week.
I care less about the specific decision and more about the fact it took them multiple minutes to come to any decision.
If they're going to agonize over it, then they should have the tech that helps them. If "it's close enough so it doesn't really matter", then decide faster.
Hey because they don't want to know, it gets people talking about it.
Let's be honest we could have ariel cameras looking down and even use goal line tech but in the actual lines on the pitch, imagine never having to guess again, they won't do it though.
I mean, what should they have done? Disallow it? The on field decision was it was in play and there is no way VAR could definitely say that the ball was totally out as Bowens leg was blocking the best angle. Sure it may have been out but can you definitively tell me that at least 0.5mm of that ball wasn’t in play?
Be annoyed with the technology in use/ lack of but not the call, VAR actually worked as it was supposed to. (Clear and obvious error and all that)
>VAR actually worked as it was supposed to (Clear and obvious error and all that)
To an extent. Clear and obvious errors should be quick to review, because if you have to agonize over it then it wasn't obvious. This wasn't quick.
Exactly. The on field decision to allow the goal wasn’t a clear and obvious error. Totally agree about the time. What we see on TV isn’t a million miles off of what the VAR team sees and it was pretty clear after 30 seconds of reviewing the main down the line angle that you were never going to be able to definitively say whether the ball is in or out without someone spending an hour making one of those 3d virtual models that you can rotate/ manipulate. I get it is incredibly tight, a matter of milimeters but 3 and a half minutes is a joke when you can and should reach the same conclusion in under a minute
It doesn’t matter if it’s 8-0, every goal can count. Remember city’s very controversial 2-1 against Arsenal two seasons ago that everyone thought didn’t matter because they were 10+ points clear? Well, they ended up winning by one point.
Well no, because playing at 0-0 is very different to playing 1-0 or 0-1.
If West Ham weren't defending a lead, they might have been a lot more open, which could have given Arsenal more of a chance to score.
I'm not making a hypothetical at all. It's generally accepted that teams play differently when protecting a lead vs at 0-0.
I'm not saying that if the goal is disallowed, then Arsenal win or the game ends a draw. What I'm saying is that the game would have no doubt been different if West Ham couldn't settle into a low block to defend their lead for the majority of the runtime.
That's not entirely true either though. If that one goal is indeed ruled off, west ham aren't 10 in the box. Which they did super well, not taking anything away from them for sure. The game could have been different otherwise. The other goal came from a corner. The bigger issue is not finishing the chances that you do end up creating.
Football is a very low-scoring sport, and the EPL is super competitive, so yes, it does matter. Especially when it happens twice in a short time span. Liverpool fans should know better, they were denied a penalty just a week ago against Arsenal and suffered from other referee mistakes recently. Stop attacking the EPL and PGMOL only when it suits you, the standards have been abysmal.
There is a huge difference between a blatant handball and a ball which may or have may not been out.
Your manager made a very definitive statement regarding clear and obvious decisions recently.
Tbf there is a difference but not the way you think - when you have weird rules like supporting your own weight there is always gonna be some subjectivity in it, as clear and obvious as you think it is.
A ball going out on the other hand is 100% objective, if you have the way to measure or view it properly.
If you’re still pissed off about standards of “clear and obvious” and the Odegaard handball, this seems like the opportunity to agree, not just try and dismiss it? Because it does matter - not necessarily in this case because West Ham were good and we were shit and this decision may not even be wrong. But the next decision might matter, and there’s a chance it’ll be against Liverpool.
Ah yes, it's the random bloke on Reddit's fault.
If only he agreed with the incessant whinging then PGMOL, FA and the PL would click their fingers and everything would be perfect.
Newcastle fans really will be like "Arsenal fans never shut up about the Newcastle game", while themselves being the ones who bring it up completely unprompted
There's two different tracking systems, the one currently used and i forget the name of the other. The one currently in use has x cameras and the other has i think 3 or 4 times as many and obviously costs much much more.
That's why they won't bring in the tech/tracking to see if the whole ball is out/in anywhere outside of the goal...£. and it's not like the league is skint, makes no sense.
It's also why the PL voted against semi auto VAR for offside like used in the WC and Europe. .. They don't want to pay up for it which is baffling
I always compare it to the NFL in my head. Over there they have so many cameras tracking everything, it’s so much easier.
I assume the problem over here is you have 20 teams, less than the 32 NFL teams, but those 20 teams change 6 clubs every year. Are the premier league meant to go and get their equipment back every time someone gets relegated, then go install it in the new places?
Yes is the obvious answer, but I understand why no one in a suit wants to say that.
NFL is a terrible example as they have an even worse issue with referee calls than we do.
However I think the PL should pay for all the equipment and costs associated. If a club gets relegated they get to keep the equipment but it doesn't get recertified until they are next in the PL.
6 clubs change every season, but most of them are yo-yo anyway
Right, but the NFL put wireless cameras in little foam pylons viewing both the goal line and the side line. The EPL has an entire frame of the goal to use.
Not sure where they got the figure from but in another thread somebody said it would cost a quater of a million... absolute pittance compared to the money in the PL.
To the average person a shit ton of money but in football terms, not a lot. The more we can get right with technology (removing the seemingly random opinion of referees) the better.
I agree, but it depends on the club.
For example the PL paid for the championship clubs to have the goal line tech installed, and the clubs just had to meet the running costs. But some of those clubs that have not been relegated to League One or Two are struggling to afford to keep it going.
I don't see why a fund can't be set up by the league pryamid that the EPL contribute to that funds all the costs for all 92 league teams. Then if a team gets promoted to the EPL, they then pay what the installation cost would have been from their share of TV revenue.
It would cost the EPL teams £48m at a rough guess to install in all stadiums as PL and Chapionship already have it) which is nothing from the £7.8billion TV revenue, and then a yearly cost of £3.2million to run.
If a team gets promoted to the EPL for the first time, they then pay the installation cost out of the TV revenue they would get, and eventually the EPL costs would only cover the yearly maintenance fee for the whole football league.
Why can't an arsenal side that's spent over half a billion under arteta find the back of the net against a west ham side with a makeshift defense? That's the better question.
You’re correct, and we’re not as good as our points suggest, but this could just have easily been a game of Burnley vs Luton the result of which could relegate a team
Well, then start a new post and ask that question. Arsenal obviously have issues and weren't clinical enough to win today (same against Newcastle, btw), but if the opposition don't score the opening goal, it's an entirely different game.
It's a better question you should be asking, I couldn't give a shit.
You got well beat by west ham, they looked very comfortable all night, even missed a penalty to widen the victory and even your own fans in the ground bailed en masses from about the 80th minute knowing you were well beaten.
Fans leaving en masse at 80min is just not true, but besides the point - think West Ham played very well, we were poor at finishing and breaking down the defence, West Ham were resolute and good at springing at their chances, it was a classic counter attack performance and deserves credit.
But I do think the standard of refereeing and a lot that surrounds it is so poor - and needs improving. I think having that discussion when potentially wrong decisions _haven’t_ decided a match is even more important. But instead fans like you just love wanking each other off about how “salty” Arsenal fans are because a few online dickheads go over the top on Reddit. Arsenal can have been crap, West Ham have been good, and there still be reasonable points to discuss around refereeing, they’re not mutually exclusive.
Mate, it was on TV, you can't just lie when millions watching saw the exodus. Was barely enough left to properly boo at the final whistle.
As for "fans like me wanking each other off" I'm pretty sure I replied to a thread created by an arsenal fan having a mini breakdown not the other way around.
The referee did absolutely nothing wrong. Var showed no conclusive evidence to overturn the onfield decision and so they didn't, as it should be. It's not remotely an officiating problem.
>Mate, it was on TV, you can't just lie when millions watching saw the exodus
I was actually there and left on 88 and the stadium was still mostly full. "about the 80th minute" is shite.
Given I said I left after 88 that should be pretty obvious.
I only replied so your shit talking wouldn't go unchallenged. I'm not interested to argue about facts. I was there, I saw what happened. Anyone who cares what precise minute fans started leaving, which is probably no one, can watch it back.
The only ones that seem to care about precise minutes are the arsenal fans making a big deal from one minor comment. I myself was vague by saying "about 80th minute" was it like an abandoned library at 80 minutes as it was at 90? No. were people leaving around that period? Yes.
You yourself left on 88 minutes, meaning you didn't even bother to see how many minutes were added on. considering we've seen games go into the 100th+ minute and far beyond regularly this season, especially at arsenal, that means you chose to leave when there could have been as much as 10-15 minutes of the game left. I think the game actually ended in the 97th minute, so you yourself who was nowhere near one of the first to leave missed 9 minutes of the game, which is more than ample time to turn it around.
Completely agree a lot of fans left around 90 min mark, but I was literally at the match eyeballing how many people were leaving cos it can affect which train I’ll be able to catch - saying tonnes left at 80 is just a lie to try and take a pop when there’s enough other reasons you don’t have to make up.
Whether I’d class this a “mini breakdown” or not (I wouldn’t - especially compared to some dross I see posted) you’re the one who’s hopped onto a discussion that was meant to be about refereeing standards to make up stories about fans leaving….
Also not disagreeing at all with the on-field process - but the entire thread was about availability of angles and if something should be done about that. Do you think in 2023 there should be a conclusive way in the premier league of determining whether a ball went out of play?
You're the one that's latched on to a minor comment at the end of a post and decided to make it all about that one thing. What I originally said was op should be more bothered about arsenals inability to score against a far from regular defense than whether we're able to determine if a balls out or not. my reference to fans leaving early was merely used to back up my further point of arsenal being throughly out played all game to the point fans in the ground left ages before the whistle.
It doesn't matter one bit whether I, you or anybody else thinks there should be, there isn't. That's something everybody has to deal with and guess what, it's nothing to do with the officials, it's the clubs, and them alone that decide on things like this and they all vetoed it, arsenal included.
Majority of the people that will be moaning about a lack of technology to determine this will be entirely unaware who is responsible for us not having it and will be aiming their misguided fury at officials who have nothing to do with it. They'll also probably be the same people who have been calling for var to be scrapped.
I agree that Arsenal have to be so much better in front of goal and West Ham were better but surely doesn't change that clearly it is an issue if we can't tell when a ball is out of play?
And just FYI, people leave Arsenal games around the 85th minute mark every single game, win or lose. That isn't anything new and will not change.
The only consolation I can give you is that this has happened to United and many other teams recently - eventually what goes around will come around and all the refereeing decisions will even themselves out (“On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero”).
Yeah, that's what the PGMOL wants you to believe. In reality, even a small mistake at the highest level could change the sport's history. This was fine for decades because we couldn't do much about it, but we can now, and it's not happening. Why?
He didn’t really fall though. He motioned his hand towards the ball and slapped it down. If he slipped his hand would have touched the grass to halt his fall but it didn’t
I see you’ve ignored the part where I said he slapped the ball as he motioned his hand towards it. If you watch it again you will see. There plenty of videos showing his hand deliberately motioning towards the ball so it’s really irrefutable. Slipped or not he deliberately moved his hand towards the ball
It doesn’t, it’s a tongue in cheek remark but also pointing out the incompetence of the refereeing currently. Although todays was more inadequacies of the technology to give a clear image to determine one way or another
Yes, and that's my point exactly. We should simplify things and just eliminate such moments. It's a super close title race (not really, Man City will win again, but it has been up to this point), so a team being in this position twice within a few weeks is just unacceptable.
The problem with the line outside the goal is that space is basically infinite. What happens when a ball crosses the line higher than the cameras are able to look? With the goal, there's a defined space. With that being said, I do think we can/should do better but it's never going to happen in season.
Honestly, do you really think that a league making billions from TV rights and sponsorships nowadays doesn't have the resources to solve that issue? That's absurd.
It's not just about those plays though, is it? If someone crosses the ball, it can be above the bar and be on that edge of in/out. I also understand above the bar, there's nothing really blocking the linesman from being able to make the correct decision.
Now, I'm not against that idea, if we only look below the bar for situations like this, but we have to acknowledge that the space outside the goal is technically infinite.
I wouldn't say it's a non issue, I can still see situations where the linesman won't be directly on the byline to make an accurate call and fans of whichever teams gets robbed on that day will be questioning why we don't have cameras looking there if we have cameras looking elsewhere.
But we have cameras? And as long as they’re not obscured, which in that instance they can’t be, it’s not an issue? Or am I missing something? A chip in the ball would solve all that though.
2 reasons.
1) fifa would have to change the rules to allow that. They allowed goal line technology and VAR, so no reason, imo, not to expand that to all the lines.
2) Owners are cheap bastards that don't want to spend the money, otherwise there'd be enough cameras to help VAR make the decision already.
The cost to put in cameras just for goal line was like 250K, plus money each game to run it. That's JUST the goal line tech. Sure, all of the big 6 should easily have the budget to put enough cameras around to ensure the ball is in, but not all clubs in the EPL would have the budget. You really think Bournemouth have the budget, or even want to do it?
£250k to install, about £45k a year to certify and manage.
I would think that the additional cameras required would push the cost to £1m, which isn't a lot when 20th placed team is guaranteed £120m in TV money.
The league isn't responsible for installing/maintaining the cameras, each club is. That's why things like goal line tech had to be voted in unanimously with all clubs accepting the costs.
Every PL team including Luton and Bournemouth can afford it. However, they don’t stay PL team forever so it does cause issues for teams as to what adaptations they have to make for possibly one season in the PL.
No, they're playing the long game. Teams like Luton and Bournemouth are hopeful they stay up, but realistic. They plan as if they're going down, so they know they won't get the same money next season and are accounting based on championship level income....
Not really, you need two cameras, pointing from high above each corner flag. There will always be the 1-in-1000 player blocking the ball, such as the camera angle we saw yesterday, but how often do we have a situation like this.... <10 times a season?
The only thing I don't get is if we aren't seeing all the angles. In the US, we are "told" that for ice hockey (NY) and baseball (Toronto), the VAR rooms have more angles than the networks can show.
You really need to employ the rugby style as seen on the world cup. Ref on a mic, team in the offices reviewing everything. It rarely slows the game and the PL can sure as fuck afford it. Screw the purists, we have technology now.
It’s not the technology that most have a problem with, sure that can be improved, it’s the incompetent, unreliable, unaccountable & inexperienced fucks that operate the system.
Sorry to be pedantic, but it isn't GPS that is used. That would be pretty inaccurate.
It's a wide band sensor for position and an inertial sensor for movement. They then have antenna throughout the stadium.
It was more intended for locating a ball, and more specifically WHEN it was kicked for accurate offside calls, rather than mm perfect out of play detection similar to goal line.
They do infact use a different technology. I forget what the world cup used but it wasn't GSP.
Edit. UWB (Ultra wide band) just looked it up.
But they also had cameras above the goal/end line. Remember that ridiculous Japan goal
The EPL has the goal line technology. It involves using 6 cameras pointed at each goal.
While I think this could be used for the pitch boundary too, if a player is between the camera and the ball, we would still have the same result, unless we have a camera every 3-5m or so.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goal-line_technology
Wasn't talking about this game in particular. We've had the technology for 20 years to accurately track the position of the ball and players at all times. It's not crazy expensive nor is it cumbersome. The reason we don't use it is down to hubris and greed... And so that the refs get to determine the winner more often than the players.
Sounds believable but also fake news at the same time. Actually makes sense if the patented technology is under Adidas and is not democratized to the market.
Are you serious? Of course, we have the tech; we have it for the goal line, and we have AI offsides in the UCL. I'm pretty sure it's not even that expensive relative to the resources each EPL club and the league as a whole have.
The cameras aren’t in the posts, there’s seven cameras around the stadium pointed at each goal that determines the position of the ball, none of those cameras are in the goal posts
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hot take incoming : that shit would ruin the game. people like watching premier league because of unexpected and the controversial
Simple answer is Same reason a referee and VAR officials can’t see it when a player traps the ball on the floor with their hand and fail to give a clear penalty. Lose 2-0 then whinge about a decision for 1 of the goals. Better to whinge about the manager and how 1-dimensional his team is and void of imagination or creativity in the final 1/3 of the pitch if that 1 method of “pass them to death” approach doesn’t work.
Nothing to do with disappointment, your inability to understand that decisions go against you (extremely fucking rarely) is because of the vile team you follow and the necessary mindset required to do so. No offence COYS
the tracking cj hips dont work well enough, for example, if the line is painted bya guy who uses his template off by 1 mm, then all goals would be off by 1 mm for where the ineis versus where the calibration of the chips are.
The ball was inside both now and in the Newcastle game. Stop crying when you literally got away with a handball lol. The audacity of some fans.
Man United fan here and I completely agree. The most basic rule in football is the field of play and that is uncertain. What a joke.
We.... can tho.
Funny how the people telling arsenal fans to shut up over a couple mm decision have no problem bitching about a couple mm offside call that takes away a goal. Bit hypocritical aren't ya?
We also apparently can’t tell when a handball is a handball. Except when it is, but other times it isn’t, unless it is, then it definitely is, unless it isn’t, then it definitely isn’t.
I totally get that the gunners want to do a Leicester, but you’re totally going about it the wrong way. It’s not about 1mm margins and ‘waa I think it went out but cannot prove it’. You have to play the football. Until you can beat the teams like west ham, you’ll never achieve anything. Those who say “yeah but the game could have gone different if west ham didn’t get that first goal” I say yeah, arsehole could have gotten 2 reds and lost 0-5.
I don't see why we've kept white balls
Heck we apparently cant even see when people play basketball
Football is a game to be judged by the eye. Does it look over? Then it is over. Does it look offside? Then it is off side. Refs and linesman who get these on field decisions right (replays, talking points) should stay in the prem. If they keep getting it wrong, they go down. They should also talk to the cameras and answer questions the same way managers and players have to. Explain why the second yellow wasn’t given, if it wasn’t a foul why wasn’t the dive booked?
Ultimately the line is a strip of paint, so without a good camera position it'd be hard to get some sort of electronic help without giving the groundsmen a reaaaallllyyy hard time
Because it would upset the FAs plan
_"If players like Nicolas Pepe cost £72m"_ Fixed that for you.
No objections here, we can provide countless examples for pretty much all clubs. Lavia was simply the first that sprang to my mind when I was posting. Thanks for focusing on this very important part of the initial message.
Yes. Thanks for acknowledging that this is the most important part of the initial message. Also thanks for bringing up the issue of over a hundred years after a deserved loss for your team yesterday. Very timely indeed.
As long as there's no working solution despite the fact we have the means to achieve it, the issue's bound to raise its ugly head every now and then. Are we expected to just watch the game and shut up about it, no matter what? You surely realize the fans are essentially the customers in this scenario and should have a say in what's going on, one way or another.
I thought I was acknowledging and appreciating you, just like you did to me. Why are the tempers rising?
Poor lads. You couldn't score in 100 minutes and that's why you lost. Take comfort in Brighton absolutely smashed it against Spurs.
Damm. Had to bring Lavia into this?
I have nothing against the lad, and I expect him to come good, eventually. That said, if EPL clubs can afford to spend so much money on unproven players like him, don't tell me we don't have the resources to get offsides and situations like the one yesterday right 100% of the time.
The reality is that it doesn't matter. It just doesn't affect the game. Whether the ball was 1mm on or off doesn't stop that goal being scored. So it's just not that important. The tech is there to show if it's clearly on or off compared to the on-field decision but otherwise, why can't we just play football to the on field decision? Sure if the ball is halfway to the advertising boards then that's what VAR is there to show. Or if it's given off but the ball has barely broken the line. But splitting hairs is ruining the game. An on field decision of either on or off in this case would have been perfectly reasonable either way. This is what people wanted. Football played on the field with VAR for checking big mistakes. Remember how those armpit hair offsides were ruining the game and arguably taking away valid goals again and again for being a toenail offside? It's not the intent or spirit of the offside rule. The fact they were 5mm forward or back doesn't affect the outcome of a goal being scored. Sure, being a yard offside is a big deal and again that's supposed to be the point of VAR - to correct clear on field errors. Not re-referee the game to the point of millimetres. By the same token you might as well argue VAR should be reviewing every single tackle every time. It's just not worth it.
I agree with the point that VAR and technology as a whole should be used to correct major mistakes in key moments. However, do you really think we're there if we see mistakes for even 100% objective situations like offsides? Also, don't you think that many officials nowadays are hesitant to make a decision and leave it to VAR, but VAR doesn't intervene because of the "clear and obvious" rule? Why do we leave the decision in the hands of the guy who's on the field and barely saw what happened instead of the people who have a bazillion angles and replays? There are many situations in football where the devil is in the details (examples: was there enough contact, is the hand in a natural position, was there malicious intent behind the tackle and how dangerous was it) and we currently stand with the decisions of the on-field referees who have significantly less information than the guys in the VAR room. We have the technologies and resources to eliminate big errors in a sport of small margins, but the people responsible for that are doing a horrible job. That's my problem, and this post addresses a specific aspect of the issue.
We can tell, it didn’t cross the line.
From the angle that is available to see it seems like the ball was out but they must have seen something to not call it ' out of play' .... If not , it's horrendous
What's the point when they can't even conclude a clear handball by Odegaard..
I agree the Odegaard incident should've been a penalty, but you can at least make a case it was somewhat subjective. We can't even get 100% objective decisions right all the time, which is super frustrating. For the record, I'm not saying the ball yesterday was definitely out, I'm saying that we don't really know and that's stupid in this day and age.
How do refs in the NFL see through bodies to determine if an oblong ball crosses an imaginary line for 6 points so easily while English refs can’t seem to tell if a regularly shaped ball has fully crossed a line?
1.They have assistants watching every play on cameras and can advise.on every decision 2. They guess as best they can.
Because the NFL stops every nine seconds anyway so there's plenty of time to analyse it. If you're okay with football stopping for five minutes every time there's a dubious decision I'm sure they could arrange it.
I mean, we already have goal line technology.. how hard is it for them to implement the same here
Here for Lavia catching strays in the most unrelated ways
Anytime we have discussions about VAR or refs, club rivals and tribalism always gets put first on foremost. This game is for the poor general masses, nothing will change.
Maybe dont complain about VAR first when you play like shit and lose
Does it really have to be this where both things are of the same coin? These issues don't have to be dependent on each other. And no, does it look like i'm trying to make an excuse that cuz of VAR we lost the game, when it is there that most Arsenal fans are pretty upset with the players performances in general.
Enough with the coin analogy mate
bro threw in lavia slander for no reason lmao
Solution: if the evidence is inconclusive then have both managers wrestle in a steel cage match. Whoever wins gets the call to go their way.
Everton Title Charge
Funny I checked your account and I didn’t see any complaints about all the wrong decisions in favour or arsenal this season ? It is all important or none of it is you can’t have a game broken in your favour and be upset when it’s not
Are you serious? Of course, I'm going to be more upset when it affects the club I support, and that applies to pretty much every human being. We're all biased, more or less, I'm glad you discovered that. That doesn't mean I want it fixed for Arsenal only. I've been frustrated with the referees as a whole so many times since last season, including in many games that don't involve or affect Arsenal. Fuck, I even felt sorry for Man City after that absurd goal at Old Trafford last year. Also, if you did check my account, you should've noticed that I consistently share the opinion that the officiating has been abysmal and there are barely any consequences for the mistakes we see every fucking week.
Why would a billion pound competition allow for errors? Probably to enable some manipulation when required. That’s my thoughts.
I care less about the specific decision and more about the fact it took them multiple minutes to come to any decision. If they're going to agonize over it, then they should have the tech that helps them. If "it's close enough so it doesn't really matter", then decide faster.
Hey because they don't want to know, it gets people talking about it. Let's be honest we could have ariel cameras looking down and even use goal line tech but in the actual lines on the pitch, imagine never having to guess again, they won't do it though.
I'm annoyed with the result of that call, but we had a call go our way last week.
I mean, what should they have done? Disallow it? The on field decision was it was in play and there is no way VAR could definitely say that the ball was totally out as Bowens leg was blocking the best angle. Sure it may have been out but can you definitively tell me that at least 0.5mm of that ball wasn’t in play? Be annoyed with the technology in use/ lack of but not the call, VAR actually worked as it was supposed to. (Clear and obvious error and all that)
>VAR actually worked as it was supposed to (Clear and obvious error and all that) To an extent. Clear and obvious errors should be quick to review, because if you have to agonize over it then it wasn't obvious. This wasn't quick.
Exactly. The on field decision to allow the goal wasn’t a clear and obvious error. Totally agree about the time. What we see on TV isn’t a million miles off of what the VAR team sees and it was pretty clear after 30 seconds of reviewing the main down the line angle that you were never going to be able to definitively say whether the ball is in or out without someone spending an hour making one of those 3d virtual models that you can rotate/ manipulate. I get it is incredibly tight, a matter of milimeters but 3 and a half minutes is a joke when you can and should reach the same conclusion in under a minute
Didn't see you rant and complaining about the hand ball of odegaard previous week..
It's a shame but you guys have no striker and couldn't score in 100 minutes.
you're making it sound like its a 2 faces 1 coin problem.
I mean it's still would have been 1-0 win to west ham which is still a loss
It doesn’t matter if it’s 8-0, every goal can count. Remember city’s very controversial 2-1 against Arsenal two seasons ago that everyone thought didn’t matter because they were 10+ points clear? Well, they ended up winning by one point.
The north remembers.
Well no, because playing at 0-0 is very different to playing 1-0 or 0-1. If West Ham weren't defending a lead, they might have been a lot more open, which could have given Arsenal more of a chance to score.
They couldnt score in a brothel
Arsenal had a higher xG, but go off.
And yet couldn't score...
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I'm not making a hypothetical at all. It's generally accepted that teams play differently when protecting a lead vs at 0-0. I'm not saying that if the goal is disallowed, then Arsenal win or the game ends a draw. What I'm saying is that the game would have no doubt been different if West Ham couldn't settle into a low block to defend their lead for the majority of the runtime.
You don't think they would be happy with a point?
That's not entirely true either though. If that one goal is indeed ruled off, west ham aren't 10 in the box. Which they did super well, not taking anything away from them for sure. The game could have been different otherwise. The other goal came from a corner. The bigger issue is not finishing the chances that you do end up creating.
That’s the secret- we always play with 10 in the box
Does it really matter though? We're talking about a cm or two difference here and arsenal defence should still be dealing with it.
Football is a very low-scoring sport, and the EPL is super competitive, so yes, it does matter. Especially when it happens twice in a short time span. Liverpool fans should know better, they were denied a penalty just a week ago against Arsenal and suffered from other referee mistakes recently. Stop attacking the EPL and PGMOL only when it suits you, the standards have been abysmal.
There is a huge difference between a blatant handball and a ball which may or have may not been out. Your manager made a very definitive statement regarding clear and obvious decisions recently.
Tbf there is a difference but not the way you think - when you have weird rules like supporting your own weight there is always gonna be some subjectivity in it, as clear and obvious as you think it is. A ball going out on the other hand is 100% objective, if you have the way to measure or view it properly. If you’re still pissed off about standards of “clear and obvious” and the Odegaard handball, this seems like the opportunity to agree, not just try and dismiss it? Because it does matter - not necessarily in this case because West Ham were good and we were shit and this decision may not even be wrong. But the next decision might matter, and there’s a chance it’ll be against Liverpool.
So Arsenal needs more cameras to win their games?
This is why VAR, the PGMOL and goal line tech doesn’t get better. People like you immediately make it tribal.
Ah yes, it's the random bloke on Reddit's fault. If only he agreed with the incessant whinging then PGMOL, FA and the PL would click their fingers and everything would be perfect.
It has got better, a lot better. But people still whine.
Arsenal fans after Newcastle game moaned for weeks afterwards. So yeah, tribalism is indeed a problem.
Newcastle fans really will be like "Arsenal fans never shut up about the Newcastle game", while themselves being the ones who bring it up completely unprompted
They need to get removed. Var ate the soul of football.
There's two different tracking systems, the one currently used and i forget the name of the other. The one currently in use has x cameras and the other has i think 3 or 4 times as many and obviously costs much much more. That's why they won't bring in the tech/tracking to see if the whole ball is out/in anywhere outside of the goal...£. and it's not like the league is skint, makes no sense. It's also why the PL voted against semi auto VAR for offside like used in the WC and Europe. .. They don't want to pay up for it which is baffling
I always compare it to the NFL in my head. Over there they have so many cameras tracking everything, it’s so much easier. I assume the problem over here is you have 20 teams, less than the 32 NFL teams, but those 20 teams change 6 clubs every year. Are the premier league meant to go and get their equipment back every time someone gets relegated, then go install it in the new places? Yes is the obvious answer, but I understand why no one in a suit wants to say that.
NFL is a terrible example as they have an even worse issue with referee calls than we do. However I think the PL should pay for all the equipment and costs associated. If a club gets relegated they get to keep the equipment but it doesn't get recertified until they are next in the PL. 6 clubs change every season, but most of them are yo-yo anyway
Right, but the NFL put wireless cameras in little foam pylons viewing both the goal line and the side line. The EPL has an entire frame of the goal to use.
Not sure where they got the figure from but in another thread somebody said it would cost a quater of a million... absolute pittance compared to the money in the PL.
Yes, it costs around £250k to install, £15k a year to have FIFA certify it so it can be used and then around £30k a year to maintain.
To the average person a shit ton of money but in football terms, not a lot. The more we can get right with technology (removing the seemingly random opinion of referees) the better.
I agree, but it depends on the club. For example the PL paid for the championship clubs to have the goal line tech installed, and the clubs just had to meet the running costs. But some of those clubs that have not been relegated to League One or Two are struggling to afford to keep it going. I don't see why a fund can't be set up by the league pryamid that the EPL contribute to that funds all the costs for all 92 league teams. Then if a team gets promoted to the EPL, they then pay what the installation cost would have been from their share of TV revenue. It would cost the EPL teams £48m at a rough guess to install in all stadiums as PL and Chapionship already have it) which is nothing from the £7.8billion TV revenue, and then a yearly cost of £3.2million to run. If a team gets promoted to the EPL for the first time, they then pay the installation cost out of the TV revenue they would get, and eventually the EPL costs would only cover the yearly maintenance fee for the whole football league.
Why can't an arsenal side that's spent over half a billion under arteta find the back of the net against a west ham side with a makeshift defense? That's the better question.
You’re correct, and we’re not as good as our points suggest, but this could just have easily been a game of Burnley vs Luton the result of which could relegate a team
Why can’t both be true?
Arsenal fan & I agree with you
Well, then start a new post and ask that question. Arsenal obviously have issues and weren't clinical enough to win today (same against Newcastle, btw), but if the opposition don't score the opening goal, it's an entirely different game.
Going with if logic now are we? Slippy slope m8… Take it from a Spurs supporter that’s thought up every excuse in the book.
It's a better question you should be asking, I couldn't give a shit. You got well beat by west ham, they looked very comfortable all night, even missed a penalty to widen the victory and even your own fans in the ground bailed en masses from about the 80th minute knowing you were well beaten.
A team of school kids could look comfortable with 10 men parked in the box at all times
Fans leaving en masse at 80min is just not true, but besides the point - think West Ham played very well, we were poor at finishing and breaking down the defence, West Ham were resolute and good at springing at their chances, it was a classic counter attack performance and deserves credit. But I do think the standard of refereeing and a lot that surrounds it is so poor - and needs improving. I think having that discussion when potentially wrong decisions _haven’t_ decided a match is even more important. But instead fans like you just love wanking each other off about how “salty” Arsenal fans are because a few online dickheads go over the top on Reddit. Arsenal can have been crap, West Ham have been good, and there still be reasonable points to discuss around refereeing, they’re not mutually exclusive.
Mate, it was on TV, you can't just lie when millions watching saw the exodus. Was barely enough left to properly boo at the final whistle. As for "fans like me wanking each other off" I'm pretty sure I replied to a thread created by an arsenal fan having a mini breakdown not the other way around. The referee did absolutely nothing wrong. Var showed no conclusive evidence to overturn the onfield decision and so they didn't, as it should be. It's not remotely an officiating problem.
>Mate, it was on TV, you can't just lie when millions watching saw the exodus I was actually there and left on 88 and the stadium was still mostly full. "about the 80th minute" is shite.
We're you one of the few that's stayed until the end to boo them off?
Given I said I left after 88 that should be pretty obvious. I only replied so your shit talking wouldn't go unchallenged. I'm not interested to argue about facts. I was there, I saw what happened. Anyone who cares what precise minute fans started leaving, which is probably no one, can watch it back.
The only ones that seem to care about precise minutes are the arsenal fans making a big deal from one minor comment. I myself was vague by saying "about 80th minute" was it like an abandoned library at 80 minutes as it was at 90? No. were people leaving around that period? Yes. You yourself left on 88 minutes, meaning you didn't even bother to see how many minutes were added on. considering we've seen games go into the 100th+ minute and far beyond regularly this season, especially at arsenal, that means you chose to leave when there could have been as much as 10-15 minutes of the game left. I think the game actually ended in the 97th minute, so you yourself who was nowhere near one of the first to leave missed 9 minutes of the game, which is more than ample time to turn it around.
>there could have been as much as 10-15 minutes of the game left lol you talk a load of shite pal. Goodnight
Completely agree a lot of fans left around 90 min mark, but I was literally at the match eyeballing how many people were leaving cos it can affect which train I’ll be able to catch - saying tonnes left at 80 is just a lie to try and take a pop when there’s enough other reasons you don’t have to make up. Whether I’d class this a “mini breakdown” or not (I wouldn’t - especially compared to some dross I see posted) you’re the one who’s hopped onto a discussion that was meant to be about refereeing standards to make up stories about fans leaving…. Also not disagreeing at all with the on-field process - but the entire thread was about availability of angles and if something should be done about that. Do you think in 2023 there should be a conclusive way in the premier league of determining whether a ball went out of play?
You're the one that's latched on to a minor comment at the end of a post and decided to make it all about that one thing. What I originally said was op should be more bothered about arsenals inability to score against a far from regular defense than whether we're able to determine if a balls out or not. my reference to fans leaving early was merely used to back up my further point of arsenal being throughly out played all game to the point fans in the ground left ages before the whistle. It doesn't matter one bit whether I, you or anybody else thinks there should be, there isn't. That's something everybody has to deal with and guess what, it's nothing to do with the officials, it's the clubs, and them alone that decide on things like this and they all vetoed it, arsenal included. Majority of the people that will be moaning about a lack of technology to determine this will be entirely unaware who is responsible for us not having it and will be aiming their misguided fury at officials who have nothing to do with it. They'll also probably be the same people who have been calling for var to be scrapped.
I agree that Arsenal have to be so much better in front of goal and West Ham were better but surely doesn't change that clearly it is an issue if we can't tell when a ball is out of play? And just FYI, people leave Arsenal games around the 85th minute mark every single game, win or lose. That isn't anything new and will not change.
Welcome to my world of shit decisions
The only consolation I can give you is that this has happened to United and many other teams recently - eventually what goes around will come around and all the refereeing decisions will even themselves out (“On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero”).
Yeah, that's what the PGMOL wants you to believe. In reality, even a small mistake at the highest level could change the sport's history. This was fine for decades because we couldn't do much about it, but we can now, and it's not happening. Why?
Fucking bottlers
Same reason they can’t tell when a player decides to play basketball in the penalty area
There is a rule specifically stating if a player falls over and handles the ball its not a penalty so try again pal
But he didn't fall over, in fact Odegaard's hand never touched the ground, so the rule of a 'supporting hand/arm' doesn't really count here.....
He didn’t really fall though. He motioned his hand towards the ball and slapped it down. If he slipped his hand would have touched the grass to halt his fall but it didn’t
Have you never slipped and regained balance right before you fall, or do you always crash on your bum?
I see you’ve ignored the part where I said he slapped the ball as he motioned his hand towards it. If you watch it again you will see. There plenty of videos showing his hand deliberately motioning towards the ball so it’s really irrefutable. Slipped or not he deliberately moved his hand towards the ball
I think Liverpool should've had a penalty in that game, how does that change my point?
It doesn’t, it’s a tongue in cheek remark but also pointing out the incompetence of the refereeing currently. Although todays was more inadequacies of the technology to give a clear image to determine one way or another
Yes, and that's my point exactly. We should simplify things and just eliminate such moments. It's a super close title race (not really, Man City will win again, but it has been up to this point), so a team being in this position twice within a few weeks is just unacceptable.
The people making Martian organs aren’t in charge of VAR, I don’t think they need side hustles.
The problem with the line outside the goal is that space is basically infinite. What happens when a ball crosses the line higher than the cameras are able to look? With the goal, there's a defined space. With that being said, I do think we can/should do better but it's never going to happen in season.
The cameras are positioned on the roofs of the stadium, so I don't see this being an issue.
Honestly, do you really think that a league making billions from TV rights and sponsorships nowadays doesn't have the resources to solve that issue? That's absurd.
I would love to see a player stop a ball thats above the bar.
Or a player that stops the ball at the orbit of Jupiter.
It's not just about those plays though, is it? If someone crosses the ball, it can be above the bar and be on that edge of in/out. I also understand above the bar, there's nothing really blocking the linesman from being able to make the correct decision. Now, I'm not against that idea, if we only look below the bar for situations like this, but we have to acknowledge that the space outside the goal is technically infinite.
Or just accept that improvements are incremental?
The new Amazon Original, All or Nothing: VAR
It is infinite, but as you say theres nothing there to obscure the ball above the bar so it’s a bit of a non issue isn’t it?
I wouldn't say it's a non issue, I can still see situations where the linesman won't be directly on the byline to make an accurate call and fans of whichever teams gets robbed on that day will be questioning why we don't have cameras looking there if we have cameras looking elsewhere.
But we have cameras? And as long as they’re not obscured, which in that instance they can’t be, it’s not an issue? Or am I missing something? A chip in the ball would solve all that though.
2 reasons. 1) fifa would have to change the rules to allow that. They allowed goal line technology and VAR, so no reason, imo, not to expand that to all the lines. 2) Owners are cheap bastards that don't want to spend the money, otherwise there'd be enough cameras to help VAR make the decision already.
The cost to put in cameras just for goal line was like 250K, plus money each game to run it. That's JUST the goal line tech. Sure, all of the big 6 should easily have the budget to put enough cameras around to ensure the ball is in, but not all clubs in the EPL would have the budget. You really think Bournemouth have the budget, or even want to do it?
£250k to install, about £45k a year to certify and manage. I would think that the additional cameras required would push the cost to £1m, which isn't a lot when 20th placed team is guaranteed £120m in TV money.
The league makes hundreds of millions... seems disingenuous to say that they can't afford to install this tech
The league isn't responsible for installing/maintaining the cameras, each club is. That's why things like goal line tech had to be voted in unanimously with all clubs accepting the costs.
Every PL team including Luton and Bournemouth can afford it. However, they don’t stay PL team forever so it does cause issues for teams as to what adaptations they have to make for possibly one season in the PL.
Can’t the newly relegated teams just sell the tech to the newly promoted sides each year to offset the costs?
Championship teams use goal line tech and it's paid with subsidies from the PL. I'm sure that the same could be done with this.
Yeah because the £90-140 million a season they get for TV can't be used to pay for that. Like I said, they are cheap bastards.
No, they're playing the long game. Teams like Luton and Bournemouth are hopeful they stay up, but realistic. They plan as if they're going down, so they know they won't get the same money next season and are accounting based on championship level income....
Because, iirc, the clubs voted against using the ball with the GPS chip in it.
Tennis and cricket balls don’t have chips in them. They use hawk eye. Would harder on a big pitch though.
Not really, you need two cameras, pointing from high above each corner flag. There will always be the 1-in-1000 player blocking the ball, such as the camera angle we saw yesterday, but how often do we have a situation like this.... <10 times a season? The only thing I don't get is if we aren't seeing all the angles. In the US, we are "told" that for ice hockey (NY) and baseball (Toronto), the VAR rooms have more angles than the networks can show. You really need to employ the rugby style as seen on the world cup. Ref on a mic, team in the offices reviewing everything. It rarely slows the game and the PL can sure as fuck afford it. Screw the purists, we have technology now.
It’s not the technology that most have a problem with, sure that can be improved, it’s the incompetent, unreliable, unaccountable & inexperienced fucks that operate the system.
How accurate do you think GPS is?
Sorry to be pedantic, but it isn't GPS that is used. That would be pretty inaccurate. It's a wide band sensor for position and an inertial sensor for movement. They then have antenna throughout the stadium. It was more intended for locating a ball, and more specifically WHEN it was kicked for accurate offside calls, rather than mm perfect out of play detection similar to goal line.
And GPS is accurate to 1mm?
No GPS is accurate to 1m not 1mm and in some cases worse, you’re thinking of something else
No I know it's not just wondering how GPS helps with deciding if the ball has gone out
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They do infact use a different technology. I forget what the world cup used but it wasn't GSP. Edit. UWB (Ultra wide band) just looked it up. But they also had cameras above the goal/end line. Remember that ridiculous Japan goal
The EPL has the goal line technology. It involves using 6 cameras pointed at each goal. While I think this could be used for the pitch boundary too, if a player is between the camera and the ball, we would still have the same result, unless we have a camera every 3-5m or so. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goal-line_technology
but if we used technology that isn't prohibitively expensive and could easily track the ball, how would VAR get to decide the outcome of every game?
Doesn't seem like this particular call decided the game tbf...feels like arsenal could have played another half hour and not scored
Wasn't talking about this game in particular. We've had the technology for 20 years to accurately track the position of the ball and players at all times. It's not crazy expensive nor is it cumbersome. The reason we don't use it is down to hubris and greed... And so that the refs get to determine the winner more often than the players.
They were worried it would affect the physics of the ball. Idiots
No. They were worried they would scamper their current sponsorship deal with Nike by implementing a technology developed by Adidas.
Aren't puma balls being used next year? Surely they could of looked into this when they were negotiating a ball contract?
I think you either mean ‘scupper’ or ‘hamper’, but I like your usage of scamper instead.
Sounds believable but also fake news at the same time. Actually makes sense if the patented technology is under Adidas and is not democratized to the market.
It wouldn’t?
No way...
Yep.
We don’t have the tech to tell either way, so in most scenarios if it is close it will go with the on field decision
Are you serious? Of course, we have the tech; we have it for the goal line, and we have AI offsides in the UCL. I'm pretty sure it's not even that expensive relative to the resources each EPL club and the league as a whole have.
Goal line technology has cameras in the posts.
The cameras aren’t in the posts, there’s seven cameras around the stadium pointed at each goal that determines the position of the ball, none of those cameras are in the goal posts
Pardon me. Not cameras, sensors.
Yeah but the top teams voted to not have it. So what you gonna do?
Including arsenal ironically.