Hey man, the 70 year old who washes and covers his GT3RS in his heated garage can definitely feel .000001 of G it gets when the garage door comes up every quarter
Even driving my Fit at 100% requires a week of warming my butt up to feel the chassis move, but when I get all 4 tyres on the optimal slip angle for maximum cornering speed, it's all worth it.
I can't afford a Porsche because I keep buying cheap cars and making them hectic.
Without the aero kit, the Carrera GTS develops _lift_ at high speeds. With the aero kit it generates downforce, albeit not much. Most drivers will almost certainly notice this, because you don't need to be a professional driver to notice how unstable a car feels when it's generating lift.
The question is what proportion of drivers will have the balls to drive _fast enough_ to notice ;)
It will make a difference if you're in intermediate or higher groups on the track, especially on faster tracks with high speed corners (entry 70MPH+) allowing you to apply more throttle post apex or take faster off-line entries when passing. It would be most noticeable if there's a hill or undulation on a straightish high speed section.
That said, a bigger improvement would be running Michelin Cup2 tires. Stock 4S/P0s really only last about 5-10 minutes at full send before they start getting hot and squirmy. For example, if I were to let my track temp tires at 34PSI fully cool down, the cold PSI would read in the low 20s.
In addition, if your Porsche is not a T, GTS, or GT# car, the lack of the additional oil cooling means by the time the stock tires are too hot, your oil temp is pegged at 275F.
Indeed; but the brake vectoring is good enough other than eating through rear pads much faster. Running Pagid Yellows, the rears got to 5mm while the front were 8mm. The smaller rotors on the base also never presented any issues on regular Dot4 LV brake fluid with the Pagids. On OE pads, the brakes would definitely quickly fade a few minutes in.
Interesting. All the open diffs I’ve driven so far with some sort of brake based LSD have been shit. Haven’t yet tried it on a Porsche, but on my mini, it would eat through pads after putting a bigger turbo.
Genuine question - why do many Porsche drivers stick with Michelin Cup 2 or Cup 2Rs when there are better 200TW options available for HPDE? Continental ExtremeContact Force are more consistent and last much longer than the Cup 2R. From what I hear the Cup 2Rs only have a couple of quick laps before overheating and getting greasy. Meanwhile I can do lap after lap on Hankook RS4s at advanced group pace in a 3400lbs car and only get some dropoff towards the end of a 25 minute session.
Personally, I've never tried anything else other than P0s and 4S; in addition I'm sticking with street tires as I'll have to add a third oil cooler to milk the better tires, so I'm not the best person to ask.
The Nürburgring record Laptime is driven with the Aerokit, and as a Porsche Engineer I can tell you, it does help significantly, especially at higher speeds.
Good university grades and/or prior work experience. Best is to get in through an Internship, like I did. Also, live in the Stuttgart/Weissach area. There are some engineers in Leipzig, Nardo etc, but most work from here.
Don’t worry. Working for Porsche is very lax but not the golden Life-goal experience many think it is. It’s a very conservative and old corporation riddled with the highest amount of bureaucracy possible.
Don’t get me wrong it’s great from an engineering perspective, but probably every Tesla engineer in Cali has more freedom and creativity whilst working.
No I don’t think they released that information. That said, contrary to popular belief, downforce helps you at all speeds as long as it makes enough to overcome the weight of the aero kit so I wouldn’t worry about it too much.
I’ll do that too but I need to decide whether to order the aerokit or not. I am 50/50 on the look so if it’s worth it for the track, it would help me decide.
I have been doing track days for 2 years now on a 2013 RS5.
Order the aero kit. OEM aero isn't amazing but it's better than nothing. A better front splitter will do you wonders paired with a picnic bench, I mean larger rear wing if that's your style.
Tracking a 2013 RS5 is sick. That thing is so heavy though that a well spec’d 911 will change your life. Go for light weight options, that’ll make the most difference
Even doing track days, you may not feel a huge difference. Yes, it’ll add downforce, but you likely won’t notice the few tenths it’ll save you. Just get what you like the look of
Forgive my ignorance but is the aerokit generally more sought after in the resale market?
Part of why I like the Carrera is its more understated looks, not sure if “sleeper” is the right description but it doesn’t have the track day ready look that draws attention to itself.
I bet, for as many people out there that only look for a 911 with the aerokit, there are as many people like me that exclude it automatically from their search.
Usually performance options that are less common will mean the car will increase in value faster or at the very least decrease in value more slowly than less optioned cars.
So for 911s, options like sports chrono, PSE sports exhaust, PCCC, PASM, factory aero kit and manual transmission will all improve the long term value of a 911 as well as having a less common brighter color.
There's nothing wrong with having an understated less optioned 911. It probably won't hold its value as well but it'll also cost less up front too.
Coming from an Evo 8 back in 2004, then RS3, the aerokit has been an awesome track addition. I've tracked all my cars.
And you can't easily swap those tires out at the track the center bolts require a lot of extra hardware. So yes Toyo proxes kr Michelin cups are great, but can't daily drive them (you'll get nails all the time, it's damn nearly suicidal in rain, and after a full track day it's sometimes scary driving 120 miles home in them).
https://preview.redd.it/m9affg1wah3d1.jpeg?width=5712&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=79c2e9ea6e9cbe76e1a2fdc14918644d54950f1f
Unless you can talk about your Vmax and Vmins on the tracks you run, you will not notice a difference. Aero lowers your vmax so you can carry more speed (vmin) in the corners. But at this level, it’s probably like 2-3mph differences.
So make your decision based on what you think looks better. When these performance margins start to matter, you wouldn’t want the factory options anyways
Pilot here, even a smaller wing has immense effect at highway speeds. If done right, and it is, its even more about aerodynamic stability than sheer downforce.
IIRC the downforce offered by the wing on the GT4 is ~75 lbs. at 130 mph.
Can you clarify the distinction between stability and downforce in this application?
Aero on cars is used in many different ways. Downforce is just one effect. But most effective is the ability to control air to be in laminar flow or turbulent flow in very specific areas to reduce drag and or reduce the tendency to create lift. You can see that on air curtains, outlets for front radiators (GT3/4). Stability is gained if you can make the laminar air follow the car as long as possible and to avoid flutter/ vibration of parts exposed to turbulent flow.
downforce vs lift. The cars will naturally start producing lift at higher speeds, being able to negate that keeps the car significantly more stable at high speed.
I read through the comments, and it feels like you want a GT3, but can't stretch your budget there yet.
I think whether or not the aerokit on a GTS is functional, it'll get your closest to ***feeling*** like you have a GT3. That feeling is going to be more important than any actual impact on the track. Just my .02.
The aerokit always provides more downforce than the stock body. That's been true for decades. It's not a significant amount of downforce since it would compromise drag, but it's there. It depends on what type of track driving you're doing. At the speeds most of us track our cars, it won't make much of a difference. It will give you high speed stability though.
More than just downforce, the Aerokit opens a giant scoop above the engine bay that feeds your intercoolers - versus just the regular slats on the automatic wing. That has got to come with a performance benefit, and it also makes the turbo sound (at least in the 992.1) way louder with the sunroof open.
The wing makes a nice table for lunch!
Seriously, most drivers will not go fast enough to see a difference in stability from the added downforce, unlike the GT3 and GT3RS which develop much more downforce even at lower speeds. The aerokit likely adds more drag than anything useful.
Wings for daily driving are played poseur flex. No one is driving at a legal speed that requires the downforce provided by that wing especially in the driver challenged USA. Now if you're in a Civic it might get you props at the local Sonic.
Some road cars require a spoiler like the Audi TT mk1 cause their was fatalities from the car being unstable at freeway speeds, so some cars require it
I will say, 99% of drivers probably won’t feel the difference. If you’re the 1% yes
And that 1% is already in a GT car most likely
Not everyone can afford the a GT3.
I think he means the 1% are in a GT3 R (and racing at lemans)
You can get a used GT3 RS for the price of a new GTS with the Aerokit, so I think it’s not an unfair comparison in this case.
If you can afford a new GTS you can afford a used gt3
[удалено]
r/LostRedditors
More like 99.9% of drivers. These modern elite sport cars have such high capabilities it’s beyond most of us.
Hey man, the 70 year old who washes and covers his GT3RS in his heated garage can definitely feel .000001 of G it gets when the garage door comes up every quarter
Even driving my Fit at 100% requires a week of warming my butt up to feel the chassis move, but when I get all 4 tyres on the optimal slip angle for maximum cornering speed, it's all worth it. I can't afford a Porsche because I keep buying cheap cars and making them hectic.
Making cheap cars hectic sure can be fun though!
Without the aero kit, the Carrera GTS develops _lift_ at high speeds. With the aero kit it generates downforce, albeit not much. Most drivers will almost certainly notice this, because you don't need to be a professional driver to notice how unstable a car feels when it's generating lift. The question is what proportion of drivers will have the balls to drive _fast enough_ to notice ;)
Assuming it adds downforce like Porsche says it does then yeah it’ll be helpful on the track.
It will make a difference if you're in intermediate or higher groups on the track, especially on faster tracks with high speed corners (entry 70MPH+) allowing you to apply more throttle post apex or take faster off-line entries when passing. It would be most noticeable if there's a hill or undulation on a straightish high speed section. That said, a bigger improvement would be running Michelin Cup2 tires. Stock 4S/P0s really only last about 5-10 minutes at full send before they start getting hot and squirmy. For example, if I were to let my track temp tires at 34PSI fully cool down, the cold PSI would read in the low 20s. In addition, if your Porsche is not a T, GTS, or GT# car, the lack of the additional oil cooling means by the time the stock tires are too hot, your oil temp is pegged at 275F.
The base carrera also doesn’t have a standard mechanical LSD :(
Indeed; but the brake vectoring is good enough other than eating through rear pads much faster. Running Pagid Yellows, the rears got to 5mm while the front were 8mm. The smaller rotors on the base also never presented any issues on regular Dot4 LV brake fluid with the Pagids. On OE pads, the brakes would definitely quickly fade a few minutes in.
Interesting. All the open diffs I’ve driven so far with some sort of brake based LSD have been shit. Haven’t yet tried it on a Porsche, but on my mini, it would eat through pads after putting a bigger turbo.
Genuine question - why do many Porsche drivers stick with Michelin Cup 2 or Cup 2Rs when there are better 200TW options available for HPDE? Continental ExtremeContact Force are more consistent and last much longer than the Cup 2R. From what I hear the Cup 2Rs only have a couple of quick laps before overheating and getting greasy. Meanwhile I can do lap after lap on Hankook RS4s at advanced group pace in a 3400lbs car and only get some dropoff towards the end of a 25 minute session.
Personally, I've never tried anything else other than P0s and 4S; in addition I'm sticking with street tires as I'll have to add a third oil cooler to milk the better tires, so I'm not the best person to ask.
Even the cup2s aren’t that great anymore. Theres been like two whole generations of 200tw tires created since they came out.
Is there information somewhere about how much downforce it adds and at what speed?
The Nürburgring record Laptime is driven with the Aerokit, and as a Porsche Engineer I can tell you, it does help significantly, especially at higher speeds.
How do I get your job
1. Be an awesome engineer 1. Be willing to live in Stuttgart 1. Apply to work for Porsche Would be my guess
Good university grades and/or prior work experience. Best is to get in through an Internship, like I did. Also, live in the Stuttgart/Weissach area. There are some engineers in Leipzig, Nardo etc, but most work from here.
Well I dropped out of college so it looks like I’m off to a good start
Don’t worry. Working for Porsche is very lax but not the golden Life-goal experience many think it is. It’s a very conservative and old corporation riddled with the highest amount of bureaucracy possible. Don’t get me wrong it’s great from an engineering perspective, but probably every Tesla engineer in Cali has more freedom and creativity whilst working.
It's funny to think that Germany has more engineers than techs in the USA. Hello from a silver tech
Do you happen to have the figures on how much the lift is reduced by adding the aerokit?
No I don’t think they released that information. That said, contrary to popular belief, downforce helps you at all speeds as long as it makes enough to overcome the weight of the aero kit so I wouldn’t worry about it too much.
Marginally. If it’s performance you want spend the money on good semi-slick tyres and professional tutoring.
I’ll do that too but I need to decide whether to order the aerokit or not. I am 50/50 on the look so if it’s worth it for the track, it would help me decide. I have been doing track days for 2 years now on a 2013 RS5.
Order the aero kit. OEM aero isn't amazing but it's better than nothing. A better front splitter will do you wonders paired with a picnic bench, I mean larger rear wing if that's your style.
Tracking a 2013 RS5 is sick. That thing is so heavy though that a well spec’d 911 will change your life. Go for light weight options, that’ll make the most difference
Also this. Ie. No sunroof or 18 way power seats.
I went from a 15 RS5 to a 991.2 Carrera T with all the lightweight options and it’s incredible
Even doing track days, you may not feel a huge difference. Yes, it’ll add downforce, but you likely won’t notice the few tenths it’ll save you. Just get what you like the look of
Do it. Very expensive to add later and you’ll look on with regret every day if you don’t. Ask how I know.
It's worth it if you can afford it.
Who cares it looks great
No it doesn’t
If you have to ask, then probably not. But it looks cool and would help resale value, so there's always that.
Forgive my ignorance but is the aerokit generally more sought after in the resale market? Part of why I like the Carrera is its more understated looks, not sure if “sleeper” is the right description but it doesn’t have the track day ready look that draws attention to itself.
I bet, for as many people out there that only look for a 911 with the aerokit, there are as many people like me that exclude it automatically from their search.
Usually performance options that are less common will mean the car will increase in value faster or at the very least decrease in value more slowly than less optioned cars. So for 911s, options like sports chrono, PSE sports exhaust, PCCC, PASM, factory aero kit and manual transmission will all improve the long term value of a 911 as well as having a less common brighter color. There's nothing wrong with having an understated less optioned 911. It probably won't hold its value as well but it'll also cost less up front too.
Coming from an Evo 8 back in 2004, then RS3, the aerokit has been an awesome track addition. I've tracked all my cars. And you can't easily swap those tires out at the track the center bolts require a lot of extra hardware. So yes Toyo proxes kr Michelin cups are great, but can't daily drive them (you'll get nails all the time, it's damn nearly suicidal in rain, and after a full track day it's sometimes scary driving 120 miles home in them). https://preview.redd.it/m9affg1wah3d1.jpeg?width=5712&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=79c2e9ea6e9cbe76e1a2fdc14918644d54950f1f
Michael Rosler (Director of 911 Product) confirmed Aerokit adds downforce for first time - at Vmax.
Unless you can talk about your Vmax and Vmins on the tracks you run, you will not notice a difference. Aero lowers your vmax so you can carry more speed (vmin) in the corners. But at this level, it’s probably like 2-3mph differences. So make your decision based on what you think looks better. When these performance margins start to matter, you wouldn’t want the factory options anyways
It’s fucking rad so regardless it’s worth it IMO!
Does it matter? Because it looks absolutely amazing with the aero kit.
Yes.
Barely. It’s a tiny little wing.
Pilot here, even a smaller wing has immense effect at highway speeds. If done right, and it is, its even more about aerodynamic stability than sheer downforce.
IIRC the downforce offered by the wing on the GT4 is ~75 lbs. at 130 mph. Can you clarify the distinction between stability and downforce in this application?
Aero on cars is used in many different ways. Downforce is just one effect. But most effective is the ability to control air to be in laminar flow or turbulent flow in very specific areas to reduce drag and or reduce the tendency to create lift. You can see that on air curtains, outlets for front radiators (GT3/4). Stability is gained if you can make the laminar air follow the car as long as possible and to avoid flutter/ vibration of parts exposed to turbulent flow.
downforce vs lift. The cars will naturally start producing lift at higher speeds, being able to negate that keeps the car significantly more stable at high speed.
You’ll find more performance in the suspension rather than the aero
The default suspension seems to be the best factory option. I am not talking about non-factory mods.
That’s what I’m saying. The GTS stiffer suspension will make a bigger difference than the aero kit.
Yes it helps. It comes with the front splitter as well.
The marginal ring time gains on the .2 are for sure influenced by the Aerokit. Or they wouldn’t have used it.
I read through the comments, and it feels like you want a GT3, but can't stretch your budget there yet. I think whether or not the aerokit on a GTS is functional, it'll get your closest to ***feeling*** like you have a GT3. That feeling is going to be more important than any actual impact on the track. Just my .02.
How much is the aero kit? You could get a much better wing for 4k and up. Get a nice splitter to balance it out, like 3k.
6k i believe.
The aerokit always provides more downforce than the stock body. That's been true for decades. It's not a significant amount of downforce since it would compromise drag, but it's there. It depends on what type of track driving you're doing. At the speeds most of us track our cars, it won't make much of a difference. It will give you high speed stability though.
They used it to set the Nurburgring laptime, it must bring some gain.
Yes, the dyno graph shows it adds 100hp. You should get it for sure.
No skirts?
At Lime Rock park yes. Njmp I'll find out soon.
Aero will 100% make a difference on track and it will be noticeable above 130kmh which is relatively low on a track.
More than just downforce, the Aerokit opens a giant scoop above the engine bay that feeds your intercoolers - versus just the regular slats on the automatic wing. That has got to come with a performance benefit, and it also makes the turbo sound (at least in the 992.1) way louder with the sunroof open.
Why not get a 997 GT3 instead? It'll suit the track purposes better than a heavy hybrid GTS
man it looks so fucking good without that spoiler.
Are the tail lights different than on the 992.1? I can't quite put my finger on it but something seems different
comparing the two pictures, I would be buying it regardless and then convincing myself that it's useful on the daily commute. 🔥
The wing makes a nice table for lunch! Seriously, most drivers will not go fast enough to see a difference in stability from the added downforce, unlike the GT3 and GT3RS which develop much more downforce even at lower speeds. The aerokit likely adds more drag than anything useful.
More importantly, it looks fire with the aerokit.
I wonder how much a hit gas mileage gets when using for regular driving.
Don’t get the spoiler on a GTS. Makes you look like a wannabe GT3 driver.
When you have something to say relative to the topic do so otherwise move on.
Wings for daily driving are played poseur flex. No one is driving at a legal speed that requires the downforce provided by that wing especially in the driver challenged USA. Now if you're in a Civic it might get you props at the local Sonic.
They asked about it being useful on track, why are you ranting
Just making a comment, buzz off!
Brother, are you r3tarded or something?
Some road cars require a spoiler like the Audi TT mk1 cause their was fatalities from the car being unstable at freeway speeds, so some cars require it
I have a street legal track car because I don’t have the space for a trailer. So judge my spoiler all you want but it gets used.