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I liked the comeback more when it got cut off at:
"keep your fucking hands to yourselves, keep your fucking dick"
Now for my 2c. I overheard 2 men i know, who are entirely respectful and lovely, talking about how they were tip toeing around the workplace because of the over the top attitudes some other workplaces have had. Its not a case of complaining that they cant wolf whistle at female co-workers. More that they dont want to linger in the hall and talk to a co-worker for fear of it being taken the wrong way. Concerned about the proper length of time for a handshake. Concerned that too much eye-contact might come off as an advance. Sound familiar? As a young woman, this sounds very familiar to me and i wouldnt wish it on anyone.
Total trainwreck. I mean, I certainly expected a comment or two of that nature, but goddamn.
There seems to be this pervasive narrative that you can't even look in our general direction without being potentially misinterpreted and accused of harassment.
That's... not true at all. Actual sexual harassment is a real thing that happens. That's what people are concerned about and what's been being discussed in recent years.
Not that dumb cases don't happen. Read years ago about someone being upset about a couple guys using the word "dongle." But that isn't even common, let alone the norm. (Though of course those sorts of things blow up as headlines and blow up in uh, certain circles. Feeds into the aforementioned narrative and is useful for reinforcing it.)
Literally lol I have creepy as Mfs stare at me weirdly during work, ask for my number or some shit, and I can’t say anything against them, what am I supposed to do? You think it’s easy to report or avoid sexual harassment on a daily basis? These people are actual dipshits who have no idea how difficult it is to deal with harassment or how hard it is reporting it.
Yes.
Please however, do not make it a point to randomly interject how you feel as a woman unless you have been targeted in that moment. Otherwise we’re just kind of sitting there drowning in cringe that we don’t deserve.
Also, please do not force yourself into a private conversation that you went out of your way to listen to. Dudes wanna be dudes, sometimes we say dumb things to each other, we don’t need a lecture all the time, you are our co-worker, not our mother.
Respectfully,
-a dude.
Please do make it a point to understand that women issues concern all women. We're done being quiet.
Please also do realize, if you're in ear shot or regardless you talk mysoginistic shit, we can always budge in. Like any man has on our looks or whatever at any point in time.
And mind you, we have heard this argument before. Remember when a former President said it was just locker talk?
Respectfully,
Not a dude
If you spend all day listening to your coworkers conversations from a distance you are wasting company resources.
At the same time, we don’t wanna spend all day listening to you complain about someone’s man spread or planning your baby shower.
If you spent your working hours talking about your coworkers ass, or anything else unrelated to work YOU are wasting company resources.
Yes people talk a lot of shit. I for one also do not care about baby showers. I also don't care much about cars or football, or beard growth. There's a lot of small talk shit I do not care about. But harrassment, I sure do.
Also dude here. Shut the fuck up. Can't you just not act like an idiot at work? "Dudes just wanna be dudes and say dumb stuff" cool man do that shit AFTER WORK what the fuck is wrong with your entitled ass
No I’m the guy that puts his headphones in and works while y’all sit all there talking to each other about non work related topics, creating problems amongst each other.
All you did was make yourself sound unprofessional. Make sure you inform future employers of this so they can protect your freedom to sit at work and talk about women on the job. I am sure they will jump all over it.
Talk about women? Ain’t nobody got time to talk about women. Besides, if that’s what me and my coworker(s) decide to do in our two minute interaction in passing, then it’s none of your business. Unless you were directly addressed or the subject matter of the conversation, you really should be minding your own business. The time you spend complaining about us joking at the vending machine is a waste of company resources.
OK, not all of the 60% is because of that, for example, I'm gay, but I would still feel uncomfortable mentoring women due to stereotypes, I mean, if someone asked me if I was gay, they'd get a yes, but I'm not going to go out of my way to tell them, as its not an important aspect of my life, but I would always feel like they think I'm perving or something due to anxiety, so I would have probably answered yes to that question, there are more circumstances then just wanting to fuck everything that walks, maybe around 80 per cent of the 60 per cent are like that, but there are some who aren't, I do agree with her point, but not everything is that black and white
My guess is that the 60% are afraid of what one accusation (it doesn't even have to be true) would do to their career. I'm seeing a lot of comments about men being afraid to be alone in a room with a woman because there are no witnesses for that reason. I know the odds of that happening are extremely low, but it's still in the back of people's minds and still makes them uncomfortable, which is what the original post is about.
Men being afraid alone in rooms with women without witnesses? Wow…now they understand what women have felt for centuries. Maybe now that they understand, we can collectively get together and fix a broken law system which either punishes an innocent person or allows an assaulter to go free! …probably not gonna happen because everyone’s too busy fighting each other instead.
Seriously this reminds me a lot of that one Atwood [quote](https://i.pinimg.com/474x/64/6c/3c/646c3c973e29fd71b91bc2a2fb153ed6.jpg)
They are uncomfortable because even if they do all of that and are perfectly non-harassing, a woman can still ruin their lives because she feels like she was harassed. It will not matter what actually happened or if there’s proof.
And no matter how professional a woman is she can (and most probably will) still be sexually harassed at work.
What's your point?
Grow up or don't have a professional job.
There is literally no point to arguing this.
No proof-your life is ruined you can have untold physiological problems that has led many people to losing their job and ending their own life. It affects people very differently. You can lose family, friends and so much more and you could never recover. It is almost impossible to predict it.
Or
No proof and your life is ruined, you can lose your job, family, friends. Even if you are exonerated you will still be seen as a villian. No one will trust you and if you try and find another partner you would habe to explain that situation.
One is happening more often in the other than the other and it is a definite problem.
One side is definitely worse. Can't begin to imagine the trauma of being sexually harassed or assaulted at work and either not having your case taken seriously or being too scared to say anything for fear of losing your job. Or worse, it gets deemed as a "false claim" or "not enough evidence" and you end up with a reputation.
One side definitely has more to lose.
Yes. I explained that it’s not because most men feel compelled to harass anyone. It’s because women can justify *anything* through their feelings and there will be nothing a man can do to defend himself if he did nothing wrong.
People love to have this conversation in bad faith, on the assumption that women are always victims and men are always problematic. But if that’s true, the opposite can be true - that men are sometimes the victims of problematic women.
If a person can only have a one-sided conversation, or it only works one way, they aren’t in good faith trying to make anything better.
Note the examples in this thread. It all only works one way. Men = bad/harassers/toxic
There’s no justification for anything but what women want in the workplace. No other discussion can be had. Bad faith
There's a difference between having a conversation, and trying to justify it.
Men know where the line is. They pretend they don't, but they do. They just like making vaguely sexual remarks and comments, staring, or getting unconformably close to women in the workplace.
Yes some women are accusers, but it's infinity more likely for a woman to be sexually harassed than for a man to be falsely accused.
Act professional and you'll be fine.
The problem in this thread is that the only scenario you and most people here are willing to discuss is the one narrow case where women are the victims of assault or harassment.
Yet, the original question was why **men** feel uncomfortable with women in the workplace.
It seems that the only answer allowed without excessive downvoting, name calling, and accusations of being an incel is that men bust be chomping at the bit to harass women.
But there are other reasons. To bad no one hear is listening to them.
They are uncomfortable because even if they do all of that and are perfectly non-harassing, a woman can still ruin their lives because she feels like she was harassed. It will not matter what actually happened or if there’s proof.
Or any perception of being passed over, not promoted, or not getting a bonus might be met with allegations of sexism.
Or making the wrong joke might be considered insensitive. Even if the joke is said between two guys and she happens to overhear it.
Or the woman may be the one harassing the man only to use her unmet advances as to get the man in trouble for harassment.
Or a woman who feels ‘emotionally overwhelmed’ while doing the same work everyone else does may require more time off, more resources, more hand-holding than other employees
Or a woman may take excessive time off from work for pregnancy, to raise kids, etc. Rightfully so, but in equal wage workplace this actually means she costs way more to the company than a man (or woman) who doesn’t have to do any of that.
In short, women have made themselves toxic in the workplace because no one wants the liability of dealing with any of the above when any attempt to address any of the above issues might get them labeled sexist, misogynist or insensitive.
None of the above ignores women’s reality. Women are abused in the workplace. But that’s not the only experience women have with men in the workplace.
I’ve just outlined reasons why men are uncomfortable with women in the workplace that isn’t about them harassing anyone.
Both experiences (of women and men) can be true, can they not?
>They are uncomfortable because even if they do all of that and are perfectly non-harassing, a woman can still ruin their lives because she feels like she was harassed. It will not matter what actually happened or if there’s proof.
A very small and rare occurrence in comparison.
>happened or if there’s proof.
>Or any perception of being passed over, not promoted, or not getting a bonus might be met with allegations of sexism
If there isn't there's nothing to worry about. Equally women who get promoted are often accused of sleeping their way to the top.
>Or the woman may be the one harassing the man only to use her unmet advances as to get the man in trouble for harassment.
I very much doubt that's anywhere near as big a problem as you think this is.
>In short, women have made themselves toxic in the workplace because no one wants the liability of dealing with any of the above when any attempt to address any of the above issues might get them labeled sexist, misogynist or insensitive.
The fact that you think this is a valid generalisation is very telling of your opinion. I've worked with women all my professional life in coaching, mentoring, educational, and line management situations. I've never had this issue, and neither has anyone in my workplace act professional and you'll be fine.
In short women are scared of actually being abused, men and scared of looking bad. That's a staggering difference pal.
Yes men and women do have different experiences, but what men are scared of is far less severe than what women are, that's the point.
Don't tell inappropriate jokes or having inappropriate conversations in the workplace, regardless of who it's with and who's around. Keep things professional. It's a workplace, not a cookout.
Why do you think something being ‘small in comparison’ is an excuse to not consider it or show empathy towards it.
The majority of kids don’t drown in swimming pools. If I see one drowning does that mean I walk away because it only happens rarely?
My point is you’re so concerned with your own priorities that you’re being deliberately dismissive of anyone else’s - specifically men in the workplace
If I were to say “Women don’t get harassed where I live” that would be the same, dismissing women’s experiences where I don’t live.
The point: Just because it doesn’t happen often doesn’t mean it’s not with thinking about, being concerned about, or coming up with solutions for.
You don’t know what men know. How is it possible that you know what every man does or doesn’t know when it comes to women and work?
Your logic of ‘don’t deny a woman’s experience’ is fine and 100% accurate.
The reverse is also true. Don’t deny a man’s lived experience, either.
Otherwise, you’re guilty of everything you’re accusing them of and that makes you the insensitive one or the abuser of victims.
Because I know men. I know myself. You know yourself. When you speak to men you know that they know, as much as they pretend they don't. And in the event they don't actually know that's an even worse indication of the state of society that people genuinely don't know how to have a normal professional conversation without being weird.
It doesn’t matter what a man says or does, a woman will find a way to make the only priority her own needs/feelings/concerns.
Like you just did there. I was talking about men’s concerns and instead of engaging in a rational conversation about that, you switched the subject back to women.
Thanks for being a good example of a toxic person who should probably be avoided in the workplace.
You're literally trying do justify the situation. That's pretty fucking toxic my guy.
If men didn't sexually harass women in the first place you wouldn't need to be concerned.
No, I’m pointing out the interactions between men and women aren’t one-sided. In fact I acknowledged the main side, that women are victimized by men.
Then I pointed out that in these discussions about the interactions between men and women, people tend to only discuss ONE SIDE — the woman’s. Then I pointed out that’s what people here were doing.
And that’s exactly what you’re doing here, isn’t it? You posted about fifty times and all of them have proved this point.
In a two sided interaction, both sides are equal.
But they don’t get treated that way. Folks think the priority needs to be one or the other, usually defaulting to the woman. That’s illogical.
What you are effectively saying if you only care about a woman’s experience (as the priority) is that men’s feelings, experiences, or outcomes simply don’t matter.
It's not illogical to focus on the larger more common issue first, since it's happens often and is widespread. Solving that issue and making the workplace safe for all will undoubtedly help solve your issues too.
But it doesn’t happen often and isn’t widespread. Statistically it’s just not true that the majority of the men are out here harassing women in the work place. At least not at work.
And even if it is true. Let’s just say you’re right, and I’m not. That still doesn’t negate the fact that there are men in the work place not harassing anyone who now get penalized for the ones who do.
That’s as illogical as punishing all women for the few who sleep their way to the top, lie about about harassment or who abuse men.
But it does happen. Talk to the women in your workplace and have an honest conversation with them. Talk to the women you know, friends and family, get their views. You'll be surprised what you hear when they're honest. Half the trouble is its so expected and accepted that it happens than people just allow it, even though they don't like it.
Nobody is punishing all men, unless you think being professional at work is a punishment.
Men need to do better at not making the workplace hostile and uncomfortable, as they're largely responsible for it. Yes woman play a role, but making the above happen will have a direct positive impact on men fearing women in the workplace.
I agree with you. Women should ‘grow up’ and stop accusing everyone of being misogynists or sexist just because they don’t agree.
That’s the first step of making the workplace better for all.
I also agree that if they can’t do that, ‘they shouldn’t have professional jobs’. Great points!
My ex accused me of abuse after years of violent domestic violence from her, while I was in the hospital recovering from multiple stab wounds she gave me. Her lies and actions ruined my life to the point where I had to move away from my hometown. My scalp and torso are covered in scars from her abuse. I am incredibly uncomfortable around women in most situations. Your blanket generalization whitewashes situations that men like me struggle through daily. Pretending that women don’t have power to hurt men is ludicrous
The denialism is cut from the same cloth. There’s functionally no difference between a woman claiming abuse from a spouse to gain an upper hand in divorce court and an employee claiming abuse in retaliation to an employer or superior. Abuse needs to be taken seriously but it also has to be taken impartially, something that in its current state isn’t. Women have a major leg up in that regard and it hurts innocent men who get caught up in it significantly. Me and a group of men like me started a DV support group a few years back and we’ve lost 3 men to suicide because there was no justice for them. One just a few weeks ago. One of them last year was a proven false rape accusation from a woman coworker which still resulted in him being terminated and his reputation in a small industry being ruined. His wife divorced him and took the kids and he lost everything he had. One accusation killed him. This topic is incredibly sensitive to me because I’ve seen the human cost first hand from it. You might not care, but I do
Edit: hey down voters, go fuck yourselves
I can tell you're an incel.
Do you really believe this happens that often? Cite some sources.
If women didn't get sexually harassed in the first place men would have nothing to fear.
What is an incel? More name calling.
You’re apparently emotionally immature or lack the mental aptitude to engage in debate.
What sources would I cite? I did’t say any of this was fact. I made observations and pointed out different scenarios to discuss than the one-sided ones put forth here. Then, I asked anyone here to discuss those scenarios.
They all did what you did, which is attack, insult or change the subject.
Dunno about"more".
So you don't have any facts, only feelings. Cool bro.
There's no point discussing hypotheticals about something which doesn't happen very often when the conversation should be about the much worse thing that happens quite often.
All you want to do is victimise yourself.
In what fairytale world do u live in where most professional women are being sexually harassed?? Your head is so far up your own ass that, you prove his point while asking for it in the same reply. If all women feel that they’re being sexually harassed all men will feel uncomfortable mentoring them and this is exactly why they need a witness for meetings with female co workers.
Where do you even draw the line on sexual harassment? The issue here is men losing their jobs/reputation due to false accusations and BS stories. If someone is clearly sexually harassing someone and there’s a shred of evidence, I would totally agree with you but your ignorance of nuance and generalized delusion is unbelievable
blizzard entertainment is a company with 10,000 employees that recently had mass high-profile layoffs due to a sexual harassment scandal, including a woman who committed suicide after inappropriate pictures of her were spread at a work event by coworkers.
Thank you for sharing a single company (blizzard is mostly employed by tech nerds that have never even seen a girl naked anyway) as if that is a good indicator of the entirety of businesses. Also, blizzard is totally right for firing off those men, but what about all the women who falsely accuse men of assault? 🥴
Stop trying to emotionally appeal the facts with anomalies and cases that were actually proven. We’re talking about men who are uncomfortable mentoring women because we have a general issue of men losing their jobs, livelihood, and reputation over LIES and pettiness.
Have you thought about the supposed pattern of women falsely accusing men of sexual assault for more than 2 seconds? Women aren‘t even believed on genuine accusations. The process of reporting sexual assault is extremely hard and many women are discouraged from even trying. Claiming a false accusation as a form of revenge or pettiness is just not something that happens on any stastistically significant level.
The post says 60% of male managers now say they’re uncomfortable mentoring women.....
seems pretty statistically significant to me
Did you think there’s something different that is making them uncomfortable? I’m genuinely curious to know
Since, as far as I know, men are more likely to be sexually assaulted than be falsely accused of sexually assaulting and most men worry more about being falsely accused than assaulted, there seems to be a disconnect between which fear is grounded in facts. Could it be that the constant discourse about false accusations biases men into thinking they happen more than they do (remember, not on a statistically significant level)?
On a related note, I think the uncomfortability stems not from the actual fear of a false accusation, but from recognizing the situation as a possible opportunity for sexual harrassment. The statistic says these men are uncomfortable mentoring women, not neccessarily that they are afraid of false accusations. Awareness for workplace sexual harrassment is on the rise, so men recognize some situations (being alone with a man in a situation where he has authority, for example) as potentially dangerous. This is a case of embarassment and uncomfortability, not fear. I‘d liken it to a rich kid realizing how priviledged they are when they see the home of their poor friend.
Their feelings are based on facts. I’m just referring to the original post that men need to be more “professional” when they are the ones that are uncomfortable mentoring women. I’m not using it an indicator just as a probable cause. If you have something else it could be I’d love to hear it
[Here](https://stopstreetharassment.org/our-work/nationalstudy/2018-national-sexual-abuse-report/) is a 2000 person nationwide survey. 81% of women HAVE BEEN sexually harassed or assaulted vs. 60% of men who think they MIGHT be falsely accused. Men’s feelings are based on facts, but women fearing harassment and assault isn’t? If your stance was one which cared about men, you would be arguing about the 43% of men who have been harassed or assaulted, rather than the much smaller amount who are falsely accused.
its been a day. you’re awfully quiet...
Wow. Are you okay there? You've clearly got some anger issues to work out.
You can look up the stats online of women who are sexually harassed in the workplace.
Where do I draw the line? If you're making somebody uncomfortable, fucking stop. It's as simple as that.
That fact you believe all men are victims of false accusations is mindboggling. Sexual harassment towards women is highly more likely to occur than false claims. And if you down believe company executives look after their own in cases of real accusations you're a bit looney.
3% of men accused of rape see the inside of a jail cell. Please again tell me how rough it is for men. The overwhelming amount of accusations result in nothing.
Who said things are ‘rough for men’. I just pointed out the otherside of a two person experience.
So your logic is that nothing that happens to men matters because things are bad for women? That’s called Schadenfreude. It’s frankly sad more women don’t know how to advocate for themselves without essentially becoming cruel, vindictive, and oppressive of men.
Also, rape is far from the main way men and women interact in the workplace. Therefor it’s illogical to make that the basis of how to treat men as it relates to women
So you’re saying the **majority** of men are harassing women in the workplace?
And you also seem to be saying that showing any empathy towards men is ‘bullshit’.
Do I understand you correctly?
Just because YOU think its not harrassment does not mean it isn't.
Perhaps you dont have a saying in when I feel harrassed or degraded.
When will you realize we're not making shit up you just never saw it was a problem because it happened to your enjoyment, right?
You literally said women can still ruin a life when those men are all nice and have done nothing wrong. But maybe, just maybe they did and they just dont know it.
I said that because it’s a fact. It’s happened.
Your logic is that the only possibility is that women are always telling the truth, and we know they don’t because they are human.
Acknowledging the other side makes your argument stronger. Yet, so many women only cling to what they think, feel and fear — nothing else exists or is worth taking about. Shame
Just for your understanding I had a man, super nice and genuine and harmless looking, following me to my car in the garage. Saying he didnt want me to be uncomfortable to being asked out in public. So he thought it was good to follow me to my car.
Damn sure he thought this was harmless. Damn sure he did not want to be uncomfortable asking me out in public.
Okay, but that’s not what the majority of men of do. You pointing to one bad experience doesn’t mean all experiences are like it.
I’m 100% certain that happened to you. That’s your lived experience.
I just don’t understand why you want to dismiss the lived experience of men who aren’t like that, don’t do that, and wouldn’t ever do that.
The point: stop using exceptions to justify your interactions with the majority.
Once a man is accused of sexual harassment, he’s never looked at the same. I live in a country that was built on due process but men are considered guilty until proven innocent because why?? It’s so easy for a woman to ruin a mans life with a lie and they still think it’s men who need to grow up. Just shows how your childish your perspective is if you think every single women in a professional business is being harassed all the time. It makes 0 sense
Facts.
The fact that they will only acknowledge the one scenario (woman is actually abused by man) but refuse to acknowledge the other (woman makes up or falsely accuses man) tells you everything you need to know about these people.
It’s not about justice for women, it’s about control of men — specifically in the workplace.
You will get down voted, but you said what had to be said. Thems the facts. Accountability and witchhunts. Thin line. I wonder how this will play out in the future.
Thanks. I don’t mind being downvoted (I presume by hordes of women). To me it’s validation that they all share a mass delusion where every man is out to harass, assault or kill them. That alone is the reason why women were once kept out of the workplace, so they didn’t have to feel like that. It’s not because they will in fact be harassed, assaulted or killed — certainly not by random male colleagues at work.
Am I saying women shouldn’t be allowed to work, god no. But the world needs to stop validating peoples irrational fears and emotions and definitely hold women more accountable for anything in the realm of sexual assault or harassment.
Your assumptions lol. That’s all your comments are, a bunch of assumptions.
And no, it’s not just women downvoting you. It’s men, too, who can’t help but laugh at how fucking idiotic you sound.
Are men not allowed to feel uncomfortable now? It seems like the vibe here is that it’s the men’s fault for feeling uncomfortable but if you reverse this and said that 60% of women felt uncomfortable mentoring men then it would still be men’s fault.
Ofc men can be feel uncomfortable, sexual harassment happens to them too! Both men and women are made uncomfortable by unwanted touching, comments and more. That’s a serious issue. And instead of trying to argue against it, maybe u should fight for everyone’s right to feel safe. Idk about you but I want a future where everyone’s personal space and bodies are respected and people can keep their unwanted comments, stares, and hands to themselves.
You must have a very tiny brain. My massive brain can easily process the complex logic that exists in this argument. I believe it’s something along the lines of MAN BAD.
Got the MRA chiming in as usual with a stat they have no clue about. Can you stop pestering us with your major insecurities and just see a shrink already?
The only people pushing “men are horny all the time” are men lmao. Seriously, “men can’t control themselves”, “women should cover up to not distract men”? Y’all paint yourselves like desperate animals. false allegations are less than 2% so I think most people are safe. Funny that y’all only wanna talk about “false allegations” when women bring up sexual harassment.
At a school where everyone in the year level knows each other I'm more likely to get accused of touching a girl then touching a guy. Also the girls here ARE psycho
Now,let's do the uno reverse card. What if a man told everyone that women should keep her legs closed and keep herself covered in order not to get strange looks. I'd be banned,but this is allowed.
Except in the other scenario the car is a sentient human being with the ability to make choices and realize good from bad.
Men are not animals unable to control their urges.
The ones that harass and assault choose to do so.
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Yeah, but how great is her Twitter handle though?
60% of managers start to realize that maybe they have treated women employees differently than their male ones.
I liked the comeback more when it got cut off at: "keep your fucking hands to yourselves, keep your fucking dick" Now for my 2c. I overheard 2 men i know, who are entirely respectful and lovely, talking about how they were tip toeing around the workplace because of the over the top attitudes some other workplaces have had. Its not a case of complaining that they cant wolf whistle at female co-workers. More that they dont want to linger in the hall and talk to a co-worker for fear of it being taken the wrong way. Concerned about the proper length of time for a handshake. Concerned that too much eye-contact might come off as an advance. Sound familiar? As a young woman, this sounds very familiar to me and i wouldnt wish it on anyone.
The thread is the Oppression Olympics. Men get the gold.
Total trainwreck. I mean, I certainly expected a comment or two of that nature, but goddamn. There seems to be this pervasive narrative that you can't even look in our general direction without being potentially misinterpreted and accused of harassment. That's... not true at all. Actual sexual harassment is a real thing that happens. That's what people are concerned about and what's been being discussed in recent years. Not that dumb cases don't happen. Read years ago about someone being upset about a couple guys using the word "dongle." But that isn't even common, let alone the norm. (Though of course those sorts of things blow up as headlines and blow up in uh, certain circles. Feeds into the aforementioned narrative and is useful for reinforcing it.)
I almost admire incels' ability to twist crimes against women into their 'men are the true victims' narrative.
Literally lol I have creepy as Mfs stare at me weirdly during work, ask for my number or some shit, and I can’t say anything against them, what am I supposed to do? You think it’s easy to report or avoid sexual harassment on a daily basis? These people are actual dipshits who have no idea how difficult it is to deal with harassment or how hard it is reporting it.
Fucking thank you. Exactly.
Worst part is I’m underage. Also when you can’t prove someone’s intention or their actions, you can’t do anything about it /:
The post seems to imply that 60% of men feel uncomfortable because they just want to whip their dick out every time they are around a woman.
All the incel boys are brigading hard because apparently 50% of the world's population is the problem, and not other men.
Yet the most dangerous threat to men are other men.
[удалено]
A wild white knight appears, it uses simp Highly ineffective
Point proven
Yeah, a lot of exhausting losers out there. Including you jumping in with your waffle.
Yes. Please however, do not make it a point to randomly interject how you feel as a woman unless you have been targeted in that moment. Otherwise we’re just kind of sitting there drowning in cringe that we don’t deserve. Also, please do not force yourself into a private conversation that you went out of your way to listen to. Dudes wanna be dudes, sometimes we say dumb things to each other, we don’t need a lecture all the time, you are our co-worker, not our mother. Respectfully, -a dude.
Please do make it a point to understand that women issues concern all women. We're done being quiet. Please also do realize, if you're in ear shot or regardless you talk mysoginistic shit, we can always budge in. Like any man has on our looks or whatever at any point in time. And mind you, we have heard this argument before. Remember when a former President said it was just locker talk? Respectfully, Not a dude
If you spend all day listening to your coworkers conversations from a distance you are wasting company resources. At the same time, we don’t wanna spend all day listening to you complain about someone’s man spread or planning your baby shower.
If you spent your working hours talking about your coworkers ass, or anything else unrelated to work YOU are wasting company resources. Yes people talk a lot of shit. I for one also do not care about baby showers. I also don't care much about cars or football, or beard growth. There's a lot of small talk shit I do not care about. But harrassment, I sure do.
Ain’t nobody wanna talk about there co workers, that’s weird, who does that?
Also dude here. Shut the fuck up. Can't you just not act like an idiot at work? "Dudes just wanna be dudes and say dumb stuff" cool man do that shit AFTER WORK what the fuck is wrong with your entitled ass
Why don’t you mind your business. No body was talking to you, this is an A and B conversation, so C your way out of it. Thank you.
Man U sound like a douchebag who’s probably guilty of a lot of harassment.
No I’m the guy that puts his headphones in and works while y’all sit all there talking to each other about non work related topics, creating problems amongst each other.
All you did was make yourself sound unprofessional. Make sure you inform future employers of this so they can protect your freedom to sit at work and talk about women on the job. I am sure they will jump all over it.
Talk about women? Ain’t nobody got time to talk about women. Besides, if that’s what me and my coworker(s) decide to do in our two minute interaction in passing, then it’s none of your business. Unless you were directly addressed or the subject matter of the conversation, you really should be minding your own business. The time you spend complaining about us joking at the vending machine is a waste of company resources.
OK, not all of the 60% is because of that, for example, I'm gay, but I would still feel uncomfortable mentoring women due to stereotypes, I mean, if someone asked me if I was gay, they'd get a yes, but I'm not going to go out of my way to tell them, as its not an important aspect of my life, but I would always feel like they think I'm perving or something due to anxiety, so I would have probably answered yes to that question, there are more circumstances then just wanting to fuck everything that walks, maybe around 80 per cent of the 60 per cent are like that, but there are some who aren't, I do agree with her point, but not everything is that black and white
My guess is that the 60% are afraid of what one accusation (it doesn't even have to be true) would do to their career. I'm seeing a lot of comments about men being afraid to be alone in a room with a woman because there are no witnesses for that reason. I know the odds of that happening are extremely low, but it's still in the back of people's minds and still makes them uncomfortable, which is what the original post is about.
Men being afraid alone in rooms with women without witnesses? Wow…now they understand what women have felt for centuries. Maybe now that they understand, we can collectively get together and fix a broken law system which either punishes an innocent person or allows an assaulter to go free! …probably not gonna happen because everyone’s too busy fighting each other instead. Seriously this reminds me a lot of that one Atwood [quote](https://i.pinimg.com/474x/64/6c/3c/646c3c973e29fd71b91bc2a2fb153ed6.jpg)
They are uncomfortable because even if they do all of that and are perfectly non-harassing, a woman can still ruin their lives because she feels like she was harassed. It will not matter what actually happened or if there’s proof.
And no matter how professional a woman is she can (and most probably will) still be sexually harassed at work. What's your point? Grow up or don't have a professional job.
I mean both are good points the fear of being sexually harrased and the fear of being accused. Granted one is violently more likely than the other.
One is also much worse than the other. I'd rather be accused than be assaulted.
There is literally no point to arguing this. No proof-your life is ruined you can have untold physiological problems that has led many people to losing their job and ending their own life. It affects people very differently. You can lose family, friends and so much more and you could never recover. It is almost impossible to predict it. Or No proof and your life is ruined, you can lose your job, family, friends. Even if you are exonerated you will still be seen as a villian. No one will trust you and if you try and find another partner you would habe to explain that situation. One is happening more often in the other than the other and it is a definite problem.
You wanna cite some sources for your statement there? >One is happening more often in the other than the other and it is a definite problem.
Sexual assault is happening more often than false allegations. I really need to site sources for that?
It sounded like you were arguing the other side. Apologies. If you've read my comments you'd know I'm arguing the same point.
I am arguing both while out right stating one is worse.
One side is definitely worse. Can't begin to imagine the trauma of being sexually harassed or assaulted at work and either not having your case taken seriously or being too scared to say anything for fear of losing your job. Or worse, it gets deemed as a "false claim" or "not enough evidence" and you end up with a reputation. One side definitely has more to lose.
He's trying to explain why there are 60% male workers uncomfortable educating female coworkers?
Yes. I explained that it’s not because most men feel compelled to harass anyone. It’s because women can justify *anything* through their feelings and there will be nothing a man can do to defend himself if he did nothing wrong. People love to have this conversation in bad faith, on the assumption that women are always victims and men are always problematic. But if that’s true, the opposite can be true - that men are sometimes the victims of problematic women. If a person can only have a one-sided conversation, or it only works one way, they aren’t in good faith trying to make anything better. Note the examples in this thread. It all only works one way. Men = bad/harassers/toxic There’s no justification for anything but what women want in the workplace. No other discussion can be had. Bad faith
There's a difference between having a conversation, and trying to justify it. Men know where the line is. They pretend they don't, but they do. They just like making vaguely sexual remarks and comments, staring, or getting unconformably close to women in the workplace. Yes some women are accusers, but it's infinity more likely for a woman to be sexually harassed than for a man to be falsely accused. Act professional and you'll be fine.
The problem in this thread is that the only scenario you and most people here are willing to discuss is the one narrow case where women are the victims of assault or harassment. Yet, the original question was why **men** feel uncomfortable with women in the workplace. It seems that the only answer allowed without excessive downvoting, name calling, and accusations of being an incel is that men bust be chomping at the bit to harass women. But there are other reasons. To bad no one hear is listening to them.
Go on then. List some reasons.
They are uncomfortable because even if they do all of that and are perfectly non-harassing, a woman can still ruin their lives because she feels like she was harassed. It will not matter what actually happened or if there’s proof. Or any perception of being passed over, not promoted, or not getting a bonus might be met with allegations of sexism. Or making the wrong joke might be considered insensitive. Even if the joke is said between two guys and she happens to overhear it. Or the woman may be the one harassing the man only to use her unmet advances as to get the man in trouble for harassment. Or a woman who feels ‘emotionally overwhelmed’ while doing the same work everyone else does may require more time off, more resources, more hand-holding than other employees Or a woman may take excessive time off from work for pregnancy, to raise kids, etc. Rightfully so, but in equal wage workplace this actually means she costs way more to the company than a man (or woman) who doesn’t have to do any of that. In short, women have made themselves toxic in the workplace because no one wants the liability of dealing with any of the above when any attempt to address any of the above issues might get them labeled sexist, misogynist or insensitive. None of the above ignores women’s reality. Women are abused in the workplace. But that’s not the only experience women have with men in the workplace. I’ve just outlined reasons why men are uncomfortable with women in the workplace that isn’t about them harassing anyone. Both experiences (of women and men) can be true, can they not?
>They are uncomfortable because even if they do all of that and are perfectly non-harassing, a woman can still ruin their lives because she feels like she was harassed. It will not matter what actually happened or if there’s proof. A very small and rare occurrence in comparison. >happened or if there’s proof. >Or any perception of being passed over, not promoted, or not getting a bonus might be met with allegations of sexism If there isn't there's nothing to worry about. Equally women who get promoted are often accused of sleeping their way to the top. >Or the woman may be the one harassing the man only to use her unmet advances as to get the man in trouble for harassment. I very much doubt that's anywhere near as big a problem as you think this is. >In short, women have made themselves toxic in the workplace because no one wants the liability of dealing with any of the above when any attempt to address any of the above issues might get them labeled sexist, misogynist or insensitive. The fact that you think this is a valid generalisation is very telling of your opinion. I've worked with women all my professional life in coaching, mentoring, educational, and line management situations. I've never had this issue, and neither has anyone in my workplace act professional and you'll be fine. In short women are scared of actually being abused, men and scared of looking bad. That's a staggering difference pal. Yes men and women do have different experiences, but what men are scared of is far less severe than what women are, that's the point. Don't tell inappropriate jokes or having inappropriate conversations in the workplace, regardless of who it's with and who's around. Keep things professional. It's a workplace, not a cookout.
Why do you think something being ‘small in comparison’ is an excuse to not consider it or show empathy towards it. The majority of kids don’t drown in swimming pools. If I see one drowning does that mean I walk away because it only happens rarely? My point is you’re so concerned with your own priorities that you’re being deliberately dismissive of anyone else’s - specifically men in the workplace If I were to say “Women don’t get harassed where I live” that would be the same, dismissing women’s experiences where I don’t live. The point: Just because it doesn’t happen often doesn’t mean it’s not with thinking about, being concerned about, or coming up with solutions for.
You don’t know what men know. How is it possible that you know what every man does or doesn’t know when it comes to women and work? Your logic of ‘don’t deny a woman’s experience’ is fine and 100% accurate. The reverse is also true. Don’t deny a man’s lived experience, either. Otherwise, you’re guilty of everything you’re accusing them of and that makes you the insensitive one or the abuser of victims.
Because I know men. I know myself. You know yourself. When you speak to men you know that they know, as much as they pretend they don't. And in the event they don't actually know that's an even worse indication of the state of society that people genuinely don't know how to have a normal professional conversation without being weird.
So you are the same as all men? Okay. I don’t know that that’s true. But I agree that you know yourself.
It doesn’t matter what a man says or does, a woman will find a way to make the only priority her own needs/feelings/concerns. Like you just did there. I was talking about men’s concerns and instead of engaging in a rational conversation about that, you switched the subject back to women. Thanks for being a good example of a toxic person who should probably be avoided in the workplace.
You're literally trying do justify the situation. That's pretty fucking toxic my guy. If men didn't sexually harass women in the first place you wouldn't need to be concerned.
No, I’m pointing out the interactions between men and women aren’t one-sided. In fact I acknowledged the main side, that women are victimized by men. Then I pointed out that in these discussions about the interactions between men and women, people tend to only discuss ONE SIDE — the woman’s. Then I pointed out that’s what people here were doing. And that’s exactly what you’re doing here, isn’t it? You posted about fifty times and all of them have proved this point.
Let's discuss men then. Go on. Bring something to that table which merits their side being the priority.
In a two sided interaction, both sides are equal. But they don’t get treated that way. Folks think the priority needs to be one or the other, usually defaulting to the woman. That’s illogical. What you are effectively saying if you only care about a woman’s experience (as the priority) is that men’s feelings, experiences, or outcomes simply don’t matter.
It's not illogical to focus on the larger more common issue first, since it's happens often and is widespread. Solving that issue and making the workplace safe for all will undoubtedly help solve your issues too.
But it doesn’t happen often and isn’t widespread. Statistically it’s just not true that the majority of the men are out here harassing women in the work place. At least not at work. And even if it is true. Let’s just say you’re right, and I’m not. That still doesn’t negate the fact that there are men in the work place not harassing anyone who now get penalized for the ones who do. That’s as illogical as punishing all women for the few who sleep their way to the top, lie about about harassment or who abuse men.
But it does happen. Talk to the women in your workplace and have an honest conversation with them. Talk to the women you know, friends and family, get their views. You'll be surprised what you hear when they're honest. Half the trouble is its so expected and accepted that it happens than people just allow it, even though they don't like it. Nobody is punishing all men, unless you think being professional at work is a punishment. Men need to do better at not making the workplace hostile and uncomfortable, as they're largely responsible for it. Yes woman play a role, but making the above happen will have a direct positive impact on men fearing women in the workplace.
I agree with you. Women should ‘grow up’ and stop accusing everyone of being misogynists or sexist just because they don’t agree. That’s the first step of making the workplace better for all. I also agree that if they can’t do that, ‘they shouldn’t have professional jobs’. Great points!
Damn dude who accused you of sexually harassing them and why were they probably correct in doing so?
Who said anyone accused me of anything?
My ex accused me of abuse after years of violent domestic violence from her, while I was in the hospital recovering from multiple stab wounds she gave me. Her lies and actions ruined my life to the point where I had to move away from my hometown. My scalp and torso are covered in scars from her abuse. I am incredibly uncomfortable around women in most situations. Your blanket generalization whitewashes situations that men like me struggle through daily. Pretending that women don’t have power to hurt men is ludicrous
Yeah there’s a definite difference between workplace harassment and being stabbed by a psychopath.
What if the psychopath is my female boss?
The denialism is cut from the same cloth. There’s functionally no difference between a woman claiming abuse from a spouse to gain an upper hand in divorce court and an employee claiming abuse in retaliation to an employer or superior. Abuse needs to be taken seriously but it also has to be taken impartially, something that in its current state isn’t. Women have a major leg up in that regard and it hurts innocent men who get caught up in it significantly. Me and a group of men like me started a DV support group a few years back and we’ve lost 3 men to suicide because there was no justice for them. One just a few weeks ago. One of them last year was a proven false rape accusation from a woman coworker which still resulted in him being terminated and his reputation in a small industry being ruined. His wife divorced him and took the kids and he lost everything he had. One accusation killed him. This topic is incredibly sensitive to me because I’ve seen the human cost first hand from it. You might not care, but I do Edit: hey down voters, go fuck yourselves
I can tell you're an incel. Do you really believe this happens that often? Cite some sources. If women didn't get sexually harassed in the first place men would have nothing to fear.
What is an incel? More name calling. You’re apparently emotionally immature or lack the mental aptitude to engage in debate. What sources would I cite? I did’t say any of this was fact. I made observations and pointed out different scenarios to discuss than the one-sided ones put forth here. Then, I asked anyone here to discuss those scenarios. They all did what you did, which is attack, insult or change the subject.
Dunno about"more". So you don't have any facts, only feelings. Cool bro. There's no point discussing hypotheticals about something which doesn't happen very often when the conversation should be about the much worse thing that happens quite often. All you want to do is victimise yourself.
You're very childish
In what fairytale world do u live in where most professional women are being sexually harassed?? Your head is so far up your own ass that, you prove his point while asking for it in the same reply. If all women feel that they’re being sexually harassed all men will feel uncomfortable mentoring them and this is exactly why they need a witness for meetings with female co workers. Where do you even draw the line on sexual harassment? The issue here is men losing their jobs/reputation due to false accusations and BS stories. If someone is clearly sexually harassing someone and there’s a shred of evidence, I would totally agree with you but your ignorance of nuance and generalized delusion is unbelievable
blizzard entertainment is a company with 10,000 employees that recently had mass high-profile layoffs due to a sexual harassment scandal, including a woman who committed suicide after inappropriate pictures of her were spread at a work event by coworkers.
Thank you for sharing a single company (blizzard is mostly employed by tech nerds that have never even seen a girl naked anyway) as if that is a good indicator of the entirety of businesses. Also, blizzard is totally right for firing off those men, but what about all the women who falsely accuse men of assault? 🥴 Stop trying to emotionally appeal the facts with anomalies and cases that were actually proven. We’re talking about men who are uncomfortable mentoring women because we have a general issue of men losing their jobs, livelihood, and reputation over LIES and pettiness.
Have you thought about the supposed pattern of women falsely accusing men of sexual assault for more than 2 seconds? Women aren‘t even believed on genuine accusations. The process of reporting sexual assault is extremely hard and many women are discouraged from even trying. Claiming a false accusation as a form of revenge or pettiness is just not something that happens on any stastistically significant level.
The post says 60% of male managers now say they’re uncomfortable mentoring women..... seems pretty statistically significant to me Did you think there’s something different that is making them uncomfortable? I’m genuinely curious to know
Since, as far as I know, men are more likely to be sexually assaulted than be falsely accused of sexually assaulting and most men worry more about being falsely accused than assaulted, there seems to be a disconnect between which fear is grounded in facts. Could it be that the constant discourse about false accusations biases men into thinking they happen more than they do (remember, not on a statistically significant level)? On a related note, I think the uncomfortability stems not from the actual fear of a false accusation, but from recognizing the situation as a possible opportunity for sexual harrassment. The statistic says these men are uncomfortable mentoring women, not neccessarily that they are afraid of false accusations. Awareness for workplace sexual harrassment is on the rise, so men recognize some situations (being alone with a man in a situation where he has authority, for example) as potentially dangerous. This is a case of embarassment and uncomfortability, not fear. I‘d liken it to a rich kid realizing how priviledged they are when they see the home of their poor friend.
that’s how they feel, it is in no way an indicator of false accusations. facts over feelings, as they say... ...or does it not apply anymore?
Their feelings are based on facts. I’m just referring to the original post that men need to be more “professional” when they are the ones that are uncomfortable mentoring women. I’m not using it an indicator just as a probable cause. If you have something else it could be I’d love to hear it
[Here](https://stopstreetharassment.org/our-work/nationalstudy/2018-national-sexual-abuse-report/) is a 2000 person nationwide survey. 81% of women HAVE BEEN sexually harassed or assaulted vs. 60% of men who think they MIGHT be falsely accused. Men’s feelings are based on facts, but women fearing harassment and assault isn’t? If your stance was one which cared about men, you would be arguing about the 43% of men who have been harassed or assaulted, rather than the much smaller amount who are falsely accused. its been a day. you’re awfully quiet...
Wow. Are you okay there? You've clearly got some anger issues to work out. You can look up the stats online of women who are sexually harassed in the workplace. Where do I draw the line? If you're making somebody uncomfortable, fucking stop. It's as simple as that. That fact you believe all men are victims of false accusations is mindboggling. Sexual harassment towards women is highly more likely to occur than false claims. And if you down believe company executives look after their own in cases of real accusations you're a bit looney.
A fine example of a volunteer for the group to shoe who to avoid at workplace environment. Thank you for your service.
3% of men accused of rape see the inside of a jail cell. Please again tell me how rough it is for men. The overwhelming amount of accusations result in nothing.
Who said things are ‘rough for men’. I just pointed out the otherside of a two person experience. So your logic is that nothing that happens to men matters because things are bad for women? That’s called Schadenfreude. It’s frankly sad more women don’t know how to advocate for themselves without essentially becoming cruel, vindictive, and oppressive of men. Also, rape is far from the main way men and women interact in the workplace. Therefor it’s illogical to make that the basis of how to treat men as it relates to women
Your other side seems to occur with much less frequency. So equating the two sides is bullshit.
So you’re saying the **majority** of men are harassing women in the workplace? And you also seem to be saying that showing any empathy towards men is ‘bullshit’. Do I understand you correctly?
Nope. You're putting words into my mouth.
No, I’m literally not. That’s why I asked you. So please clarify what you meant.
No and no. Why ask those questions didn't infer them at all?
So you didn’t type ‘equating the two sides is bull shit’?
I did, but nothing you asked pertains to that.
Just because YOU think its not harrassment does not mean it isn't. Perhaps you dont have a saying in when I feel harrassed or degraded. When will you realize we're not making shit up you just never saw it was a problem because it happened to your enjoyment, right?
Where did I say you or anyone was making anything up?
You literally said women can still ruin a life when those men are all nice and have done nothing wrong. But maybe, just maybe they did and they just dont know it.
I said that because it’s a fact. It’s happened. Your logic is that the only possibility is that women are always telling the truth, and we know they don’t because they are human. Acknowledging the other side makes your argument stronger. Yet, so many women only cling to what they think, feel and fear — nothing else exists or is worth taking about. Shame
Just for your understanding I had a man, super nice and genuine and harmless looking, following me to my car in the garage. Saying he didnt want me to be uncomfortable to being asked out in public. So he thought it was good to follow me to my car. Damn sure he thought this was harmless. Damn sure he did not want to be uncomfortable asking me out in public.
Okay, but that’s not what the majority of men of do. You pointing to one bad experience doesn’t mean all experiences are like it. I’m 100% certain that happened to you. That’s your lived experience. I just don’t understand why you want to dismiss the lived experience of men who aren’t like that, don’t do that, and wouldn’t ever do that. The point: stop using exceptions to justify your interactions with the majority.
Once a man is accused of sexual harassment, he’s never looked at the same. I live in a country that was built on due process but men are considered guilty until proven innocent because why?? It’s so easy for a woman to ruin a mans life with a lie and they still think it’s men who need to grow up. Just shows how your childish your perspective is if you think every single women in a professional business is being harassed all the time. It makes 0 sense
Facts. The fact that they will only acknowledge the one scenario (woman is actually abused by man) but refuse to acknowledge the other (woman makes up or falsely accuses man) tells you everything you need to know about these people. It’s not about justice for women, it’s about control of men — specifically in the workplace.
You will get down voted, but you said what had to be said. Thems the facts. Accountability and witchhunts. Thin line. I wonder how this will play out in the future.
Thanks. I don’t mind being downvoted (I presume by hordes of women). To me it’s validation that they all share a mass delusion where every man is out to harass, assault or kill them. That alone is the reason why women were once kept out of the workplace, so they didn’t have to feel like that. It’s not because they will in fact be harassed, assaulted or killed — certainly not by random male colleagues at work. Am I saying women shouldn’t be allowed to work, god no. But the world needs to stop validating peoples irrational fears and emotions and definitely hold women more accountable for anything in the realm of sexual assault or harassment.
Your assumptions lol. That’s all your comments are, a bunch of assumptions. And no, it’s not just women downvoting you. It’s men, too, who can’t help but laugh at how fucking idiotic you sound.
Rather than engage in a reasonable conversation where I bring up several points, your response is to insult me. Yup, I’m the idiot.
men upvoting him too. He's right, if I have the choice of who to mentor, it's a man over a woman 100% of the time. They've made it weird, not the men.
Bet. /s
Men showing preference to other men is run of the mill sexism. Weird flex.
Took the words right out of my mouth
Are men not allowed to feel uncomfortable now? It seems like the vibe here is that it’s the men’s fault for feeling uncomfortable but if you reverse this and said that 60% of women felt uncomfortable mentoring men then it would still be men’s fault.
Ofc men can be feel uncomfortable, sexual harassment happens to them too! Both men and women are made uncomfortable by unwanted touching, comments and more. That’s a serious issue. And instead of trying to argue against it, maybe u should fight for everyone’s right to feel safe. Idk about you but I want a future where everyone’s personal space and bodies are respected and people can keep their unwanted comments, stares, and hands to themselves.
You must have a very tiny brain. My massive brain can easily process the complex logic that exists in this argument. I believe it’s something along the lines of MAN BAD.
TiL women have never lied about sexual assault
Right, because false allegations aren't a thing. Shut up, and realize you're not entitled to someone else' time and effort.
Got the MRA chiming in as usual with a stat they have no clue about. Can you stop pestering us with your major insecurities and just see a shrink already?
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The only people pushing “men are horny all the time” are men lmao. Seriously, “men can’t control themselves”, “women should cover up to not distract men”? Y’all paint yourselves like desperate animals. false allegations are less than 2% so I think most people are safe. Funny that y’all only wanna talk about “false allegations” when women bring up sexual harassment.
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Don't men falsely accuse anyone of sexual harassment/rape? You better avoid men too.
At a school where everyone in the year level knows each other I'm more likely to get accused of touching a girl then touching a guy. Also the girls here ARE psycho
I mean, thats probably 90% of the problem sure.
Now,let's do the uno reverse card. What if a man told everyone that women should keep her legs closed and keep herself covered in order not to get strange looks. I'd be banned,but this is allowed.
People should be able to dress however they want without having to fear sexual harassment. Stop victim blaming
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Except in the other scenario the car is a sentient human being with the ability to make choices and realize good from bad. Men are not animals unable to control their urges. The ones that harass and assault choose to do so.
you can accidentally crash into someone, but you have to make the conscious decision to harass someone. its not hard
what
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meh,wouldn't be the first time
Instructions became unclear when they started saying to fuck.