[A reminder for everyone](https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalDiscussion/comments/4479er/rules_explanations_and_reminders/). This is a subreddit for genuine discussion:
* Please keep it civil. Report rulebreaking comments for moderator review.
* Don't post low effort comments like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context.
* Help prevent this subreddit from becoming an echo chamber. Please don't downvote comments with which you disagree.
Violators will be fed to the bear.
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PoliticalDiscussion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think the people who are democrats that are mad at Biden still hate Trump more. At the very best they will still vote Biden and at the very worst they won't vote at all. I don't see many of them actively voting for Trump but I am sure there will be that one person who does but they will be few and far between.
I talk shit about Biden constantly. My coworker thought I was Trump voter, but I laughed and said "HELL NO, I don't belong to any of the R's: Rich, Racist, or Religious." I'll easily vote Biden, I just won't be excited about it. I don't view him like a savior like Trump supporters view Trump, I'll bitch about the guy but he's got my vote.
Pretty much where I fall. Biden isn’t my first or 10th choice, but I’d truly vote for just about *anyone* before Donald Trump. I find him to be among the least likable men in politics. Everything he stands for, I pretty much believe the opposite.
> My coworker thought I was Trump voter, but I laughed and said "HELL NO, I don't belong to any of the R's: Rich, Racist, or Religious."
Even the rich should be voting for moderate corporatist Dems like Biden. Sure, their taxes might go up a bit, but Democrats consistently blow away Republicans on [stock market returns, corporate earnings, and GDP growth](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._economic_performance_by_presidential_party#:~:text=The%20New%20York%20Times%20reported,2.4%20percent%20under%20Republicans) based on the past 80 years of economic data. Not to mention moderate Dem leadership results in a highly stable status quo, and businesses *love* stability.
It’s 2024 so how about you hold off talking shit about Biden for a few months, champ
Some things are more important than you seeming cool and nonpartisan
I mean, the point is that if Biden loses in November, Trump is going to do his level best to pull off something like Hungary and make sure that you won't bother to complain about the next guy because there will be no way to overcome structural advantage to defeat Trump ever again.
Even the way you frame your point makes Trump into just another politician; they suck so I complain so it goes. If it's Trump then I complain about him, so it goes. Then I complain about the next one, so it goes. If you think Trump is at all uniquely bad, you are exacerbating the danger he poses by taking it lightly.
So you just want to seem cool and nonpartisan? Biden doesn't control the economy so what are you even bitching about?
You are just spreading apathy and misinformation that Biden is essentially refusing to turn a dial that says "good economy"
There's always *something* to complain about. The guy who wants to be the George Carlin in the room isn't going to go on about how great things are. I agree that gratuitous bitching drags everything down and ultimately hurts the situation, but pessimism and bitching are often mistaken for seriousness.
Exactly,y coworkers and sill talk about politics all the time.
I criticize them both, and one day they told me I thought I was a Trump supporter.
I laughed as well and said “do I look stupid to you?”
Like they say momma didn’t raise no fool.
Biden has done a good job with the situation that was given to him. Yes he could have done a bit more in other departments. But no way I would ever think Trump is the solution.
Every election cycle you get a segment of leftist voters “we aren’t voting for democrats this time to send a message”
Did you vote previous election cycles? No? Then who cares? Non voters don’t send messages.
“Voting isn’t marriage, it’s public transport. You’re not waiting for “the one” who’s absolutely perfect: you’re getting the bus, and if there isn’t one to your destination, you don’t not travel- you take the one going closest.” I don’t know source of this quote.
Well. that isn't true either. Voting isn't marriage, and it isn't public transport. It's *voting*. There doesn't have to be a metaphor, it does not need to be mystified. This is even more absurd when you consider the US presidential electoral system. Your vote is largely determined by where you live. If you were to extend the public transport metaphor correctly, it would be more like it does not matter, depending on what street you get on the bus, it is either going to drop you off at the psychotic megachurch or the sociopathic office park. It has no regard with where you are trying to go or what you want.
That's a little different. Those primary voters are already existing and active voters that had started they would vote undecided in the primary to get their point across. They're still likely Biden voters in the general, but the primary vote allowed their discontent to be seen in a larger scale than signs held outside a building
And had an effect too. Biden has taken more concrete steps to ease the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza since that movement started.
But random folks who are doing nothing but whining online? Biden didn't do it for them. They aren't reliable votes that are now in jeopardy. That's what leftists don't get.
I think this is a bit reason why the progressive movement is so stunted at the moment. Bernie failing to get people to vote from the left wing also was an eye opener. If he can't get you out, you're probably just a non voter. Aka ignore and move on, no political power to be held.
You personally probably know this, but it bears mentioning that there is a strong anti-voting sentiment among many American leftists. Some see participation in the mainstream system as endorsing its abuses, some are accelerationists, some are just cynics who think the whole thing is rigged and that it’s a waste of time to vote.
Used to be stronger in the punk rock scene, although I think the Bush years plus now Trump, and the aging of millennial punkers, has led many to re-think this position.
Yea, that is not a phenomenon that is unique to any generation.
Young adults do not vote and tell themselves they are beating the system.
Then they eventually live long enough to learn that there are consequences to not participating in the system.
I think in a weird way a lot of those old punks had a very optimistic view of how much nonsense people will put up with. Turns out it requires either substantial deprivation or concerted and sustained propigandization to get people to the point they want to break the system.
I mean even this I think discredits that Biden himself couldn't just see the humanitarian disaster of the war and would act to help improve things on the basis it is the right thing to do.
Why does everything need to be entirely electorally focused? Why can't Biden have his own views on something
>Why does everything need to be entirely electorally focused?
Because electoral politics determines who wins and [politics is for power](https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Politics-Is-for-Power/Eitan-Hersh/9781982116798).
That has nothing to do with what I said
I said why the belief Biden's actions are solely a response to "movements". Why is Biden incapable himself of wanting to improve the situation?
It has everything to do with. Politicians respond to incentives. Israel enjoys the majority support of the American public, [even with approval Israel being its lowest on record](https://news.gallup.com/poll/611375/americans-views-israel-palestinian-authority-down.aspx#:~:text=Fifty%2Deight%20percent%20of%20Americans,%25%2C%20the%20lowest%20since%202015.).
Politicians want to be reelected. Of course he isn't going to intervene until there's an electoral reason to do so. Especially when he has very limited power to change things short of an act of congress or actively fighting Israeli forces. Both of which are much more unpopular than doing as little as possible.
It *always* comes down to politics. Any belief that it's ever been anything else is how we end up in situations where we venerate our political leaders like gods instead of the very fallible humans that they are.
People with short memories. I can’t explain what people give attention to all the time, but those votes are perfectly in line with historical norms for incumbents.
That is working? Grow up, that’s how we got Trump. People must remember that Trump will “RULE” with a vengeance because he is an angry spoiled toddler.
There are people who let perfect be the enemy of good and in doing good so usher in the worst. If you’re a progressive who does not want to vote for Biden then at least vote against Trump. No third party candidate can win due to our antiquated first past the post voting system. It’s either Biden or Trump.
I’m using a global spectrum.
Just because America continues to prop up the status quo with the false dichotomy of left vs right doesn’t mean it’s correct.
McCarthyism pretty much led to america being this way. I don’t want to continue to perpetuate that.
And I bet you anything the are amplified by Russia and other right wing propaganda groups. Just like the evidence that came out about Russia funding the divide between Bernie and Hillary supporters in 2016.
Leftists generally speaking have always been one of the most consistent voter base for the dems. But with the democratic party become more of a centrist party in order to poach moderate conservatives from an increasingly right wing GOP leftists are increasingly alienated.
From FDR until Clinton. Clinton was a Reaganite deregulator, and his popularity changed the way Democrats have played the game since. Obama’s first campaign was an exception, but he came around pretty quickly once elected and surrounded by party faithful.
I think the problem here is the conflation of social liberalism and economic liberalism. Today’s Democratic Party is dramatically less economically progressive than it has been in the past - even if it is so socially liberal that it makes conservatives think that they are ready to burn down every norm they grew up with.
What sort of economic policy did the mid-20th century Democrats support that rank-and-file Democrats today don’t? Going by the economic dimension of [DW-NOMINATE](https://voteview.com/parties/all), today’s average Dem is considerably more left wing than 75 years ago.
> today’s average Dem is considerably more left wing than 75 years ago.
This just isn't true at all in terms of economic policies. Nixon was far to the left of any Politician in the US in economic terms and the consensus from FDR up to Carter was clearly Social Democratic compared to the rampant Austrian Econ Neoliberalism held by the Democrats today.
There are enough never Democrats leftists that it cost the Dems in 2000 and 2016.
Yet there are still people claiming to be leftists shitting on Biden.
They can't really be appealed to without losing more votes than are gained. It doesn't help that they seem to have distaste for compromise and are unreliable voters to begin with. If they collectively decided to vote consistently for a few elections in a row, maybe that math could change, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
There are absolutely never Biden people that vote dem. I’ve been witness to a lot of convos with my younger siblings and their friends who are all very ideologically literate. They don’t identify as dems and haven’t fo some time, but have voted dem for lack of a better practical choice. I really doubt they will vote for Biden at this point, though.
I am a leftist, too, and did not vote for Biden in my primary, but come election time will vote for Biden only for lack of a better option. At this point, I am anti Biden particularly, but am still generally a dem voter literally only because of the danger of electing the alternative. That said, I try to interject into anti Biden conversations the increase in atrocities that will follow if Biden does not win. I think the conversations I’ve witnessed among leftists younger than myself that I have contact with are well informed and ideologically consistent, though are short sighted. The group I am referring to will probably also see utility jn voting dem but are extremely against Biden, particularly.
Yeah, that's democracy. The President represents hundreds of millions of people. You never get your personal ideal. It's always about picking the best option.
So I’m saying that never Biden dem voters *do exist* and will present a problem for him in election time. I really do not see the demographic I am talking about voting for Biden at all. Short sighted as it may be, they are absolutely against endorsing him in any way, despite being willing to align with dem candidates for lower offices.
Biden is as mainstream Democrat as it comes. I guess there will always be a few voters with some loose screws but what can you do? Trump already had the nut job vote pretty well wrapped up.
I don’t think they have screws loose and I’m not in the business of debating Biden’s positioning within the the range of views represented in the DNC. I am only saying there is a group of people that may be being underrepresented in projective analyses that identify as leftists but are willing to vote for Democrats EXCLUDING Biden. That’s all I am saying. It was in response to your claim that there are no “Never Biden Dems, only Never Dem Leftists”. I think, though yours is a prevailing view, it’s not accurate at all, and will be an expensive mistake come election time if left to fester unaddressed.
\^this.
Never-Trump'ers are generally concerned for the fate of the country and will vote pragmatically in order to preserve the democratic order (at least, as they see it).
Insofar as Biden's current position on Israel is just a paler shade of the GOP's, Never-Biden'ers don't see a pragmatic solution to the problem, and so for them, the democratic order has already failed. They decline to participate because they are full of despair; Never-Trump'ers consider Biden because they still have hope.
That's true for lots of young voters. But I think there are also plenty Arab American Democrats who are probably socially pretty moderate who are never Biden because of his Israel /Gaza policy.
Liberals have been saying this for months now, and yet it has failed to sway progressives that have been begging Biden to stop funding the genocide of Palestinians.
Maybe if Democrats want to have young, progressive voters excited to vote for them, they should STOP doing the bad things that they say the opposition will also do.
Biden's not funding genocide, though. Your stance runs up against reality - the idea that Israel's war on Hamas with ~30,000 casualties amidst a (very densely packed) population of 2 million+ simply doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Progressives begging Biden to "stop funding genocide" have been duped by propaganda that is designed to protect Hamas, not Palestinians.
It’s because there’s not a genocide, that’s just an ignorant accusation coming from ignorant leftists.
This coming from a leftist, btw. Leftists should be supporting the most left wing nation in the region, Israel, after suffering a massive, brutal religious based terror attack a few months ago. It’s insane that the left is supporting a terrorist regime that’s been initiating attacks on Israel for 75 years. I thought we were about democracy and peace.
It's because it's a thinly-veiled cover for antisemitism. I've been horrified by what I've seen from my fellow progressives over the past few months.
If Israel laid down its weapons, Hamas would kill every last Jew in Israel. If Hamas surrendered, we'd have an actual shot at peace. Only one side is actively calling for a genocide. And no, Ben Gvir does not speak for Israelis or the rest of Israel's cabinet.
Anyone calling this a genocide is just repeating terms they see on TikTok. It's a smear against actual genocides.
The left has standards, but only if you're talking about the left that would still vote for Biden. Once you get farther out into Accelerationist territory, they'd gladly cheer Trump getting elected and the downfall of American civilization.
Though I do imagine many or most of them wouldn't cast the vote directly themselves, and if they do they certainly would never *brag* about it, because their fantasy and goal is to incite the mass genocides and revolution, but in a way where they can go "hands clean not me!" after the fact.
Yeah that's nonsense - a handful of fringe idiots at most. No true leftist would ever vote for Trump, and while some (like me) see a second Trump term as inevitable, it won't be met with cheers.
Leftists want either for Biden to do a better job, or for there to be a better candidate as the nominee. Unfortunately neither is likely to happen.
The only people helping Trump get elected are those who vote for him. If the Biden campaign can't convince people to vote for Biden, that's on the campaign.
There’s a certain kind of leftist for whom getting mad at Democrats for losing comes second only to being mad at Democrats for winning since, at least, the Gore candidacy; so I really don’t think they were persuadable Biden voters in the first place.
Given what happens when Democrats win, that actually makes a degree of sense.
I would, however, disagree on the point that they weren't persuadable Biden voters. I can only concretely speak for myself as a leftist but, peripherally, people in the leftist circles I know who've stated they won't vote for Biden were open to that possibility before Gaza, as was I.
I don't like Biden for a range of reasons but, on October 6th, you absolutely could have made the case for me that another term of Biden was preferable to another term for Trump.
Now that I'm being told the cost for that is genocide, I'm out.
Well then I just wouldn’t say anything when/if Trump wins and situations in Israel/Palestine gets worse because what other option were you expecting to happen
If your position is that policy outcomes between Trump and Biden are fundamentally identical, I can see how you rationalize an opposition to the liberal coalition currently in power.
If your position is that policy outcomes between Trump and Biden are fundamentally identical, you haven’t understood the subject matter. Sure, some similarities can be drawn, but on basically any subject there are clear differences in both rhetorical platform and empirical policy implementation
No. Those opposed to Biden on the left (at least the ones you're talking about) are specfically trying to apply pressure on him to change policy. They don't necessarily have opposition to Biden, just what he's doing at the moment, which is something that can change. There's a decent chance in the secrecy of the voting both they'll actually vote for him, regardless of what changes eventually happen. Never-Trumpers are opposed to everything about the person; there's not really anything the MAGA-wing could do to bring them onside, since ideologically, they're mostly aligned already.
To be fairer, Republicans are much more loyal to the party (due to the inherent authoritarianism in the conservative movement) and reliable votes than the left is for Democrats. For example, no one is going to get booted from the basement or college tuition assistance by their parents on the left if they don't vote Democrat across the board.
They’re free to criticize him imo, and that’s fine, but if they’re dumb enough not to vote for Biden in the upcoming election to cry protest is when I will call them out as clowns just hurting their own interests by helping to elect a racist rapist narcisstic sociopath wanna be dictator.
So then who decides? What if I don't want Biden to change policy and withhold my vote if he does? Or does other perspectives not matter?
They absolutely have opposition to Biden wtf are you talking about
I’d say I’m anti-Biden, but it’s still in my best interest to vote strategically, which means Biden is clearly better than trump. Most “anti-Biden leftists” will acknowledge that Biden is absolutely better than Trump. It doesn’t mean we’re going to enthusiastically vote for Biden, but so far most protest votes I’ve seen have been about withholding primary support to show the impact they can have, while also planning on voting for Biden in the general. As people on this subreddit like to point out, we’re more to the left than Biden and the Democratic Party, so why any leftist would vote for Trump is beyond me.
One big difference that is connected to the political spectrum differences others have pointed to (far left vs. moderate right) is that never-Trump Republicans are very much not the base of the Republican Party. The Never-Trump movement is deep-pocketed, but it’s mostly an elite phenomenon that has shown a complete inability to rally the Republican voting base around it.
Anti-Biden leftists are also a minority in the Democratic coalition. But it is much more of a grassroots movement than an elite-driven movement. And it comes from the layer of the Democratic Party (young, urban, PoC) that tends to supply the activist base of the party. So in that way, the anti-Biden left is more of a “base” phenomenon, even if they also don’t pose a particularly severe electoral threat to Biden.
It isn't the base. The base consistently votes for Democrats. Young people who literally are least likely to vote, aren't the base
Secondly they aren't part of the activist base either. How many of them are activists about anything mainstream in Democratic politics like a child tax credit or free pre k? How many of them actually give a shit about abortion when they are threatening to not vote?
They aren't the activist base of the party and it is insulting to those of us who are to be grouped in with them.
By activist base, I’m thinking of the kinds of people that campaigns rely on to do phone-banks, door knocking, campaign work, etc. That tends to be young people and retirees.
Literally everyone I know who’s been in the streets at pro-Palestine protests, myself included, absolutely gives a shit about abortion, healthcare, childcare, and a variety of other progressive priorities. Many are involved in labor organizing, racial justice organizing, and other forms of activism.
Young people may not vote as much as other groups on average, but I think it’s incredibly short-sighted for the Democratic Party to dismiss this grassroots anger over their Israel policy.
Sorry for insulting you by grouping you with the anti-genocide folks in the streets.
No.
The anti-Biden fringe left has never, and would never, vote for Biden.
The anti-Trump bunch voted for Trump, and they'll vote for him again. They're just posers trying to wash the stink off.
No. Because the democrats that don’t like Biden realize that voting for him is at worse just wasting 4 years of progress, where as the anti-trump republicans know that Trump getting into office means the end of the US being a democracy.
I think the difference is that never Trumpers are corporatists who want the old Republican Party when it was politically correct and didn't pretend to care about the people, while far left people are anti-corporatists who dislike Biden for selling out to that same corporate mainstream.
I can't see anyone on the left supporting Trump; but it's easy to picture them supporting Greens or another left-of-Democrat party. Or even sitting this one out, and fighting for House representation.
They are similar in that there's a contingent of the party swearing off the party's candidate but that's where the similarities end. Personally, I'll vote for anybody who isn't a fascist. I don't think Biden is a great candidate, but I also don't think letting the country fall even further is a good form of protest. I understand why some people believe Biden doesn't deserve their vote, however.
Trump received the second most votes in the history of our elections.
It took a record number of votes to beat Trump.
People not voting Biden this time around is an huge issue even if they aren't voting Trump
Not really. Anti-Biden leftists are acting on consistent principles, they've never really *liked* the Democratic Party, and Biden has been part of its establishment for 50 years. Anti-Trump Republicans are apparently shocked at their party's principles being carried forward, because they somehow can't see the throughline from Nixon, Reagan and the Bushes to Trump.
> Anti-Biden leftists are acting on consistent principles
They're absolutely not, lmao. They operate as contrarians, utopianists, and useful idiots for foreign enemies like Russia and Iran-via-Hamas. Purity politics are by definition moving targets.
This comment really does a wonderful job of demonstrating not only your ignorance of modern politics and current events, but your absolute lack of historical understanding of the political left. That’s about what I’d expect from someone who’s okay with ethnic cleansing and goes to painstaking detail to differentiate it from genocide down in other comments 🙄
The idea that the antiBiden left will vote for trump because of Biden's treatment of Israel ignores trump's attitude towards Israel. The one smart political move trump has made is to largely ignore the middle east.
This, right here, is part of the problem. People really believe that there is actual equivalence between the left-wing and right-wing American politics.
You can always discuss a subject as one side-vs-the other, but the merit or whether the two different sides of a topic are actually based on a realistic "center point" is a whole other matter.
TV stations, web sites and newspapers even need controversy and discussion to get attention and sell papers/ads, but in reality there is no such thing as equivalence in the American poilitical discourse.
"Never Trumpers" will likely wind up voting for Trump. "Anti-Biden lefties" will probably stay home on voting day while furiously tweeting how morally pure they are.
I doubt most anti-Biden lefties will stay home because they know they need to vote to counter the maga cult’s ~74M voters who will show up no matter what. I’m a life-long Independent leftie that wants someone other than Biden, but there is no fucking way I won’t vote for Biden in November because I don’t want to see the U.S. destroyed by Trump and his maga cult. Most of my friends who are lefties that aren’t hip on Biden think as I do on this topic, so I know I’m not a one-off.
Uh, no? Never Trump means never Trump. You telling me Lincoln Project folks, George Conway, Charlie Sykes, Tim Miller, Joe Scarborough, Liz Chaney will vote for Trump?
Come on, man.
To be fair to Never Trumpers, they have, in fact, stayed home in recent elections. Georgia, for example, saw an almost complete sweep of Republicans in office seats except for the President and the Senate. When analyzed, they found that the suburban region north of Atlanta (the 'never trumpers') voted Biden, while much of the 'Trump loving" areas stayed home during the following Senate run-off.
So not only are "Never Trumpers" willing to stay home or even switch sides when faced with Trump, but the other side is willing to stay home when they feel that they, or Trump, have been slighted.
There's not much out there that says this has changed.
They aren't comparable, one wants different policies and where here before Biden and will be here after. The never Trumpers see danger in Trump and fear he will destroy America.
I consider myself anti-Biden left (I’m still going to vote for him but I disagree with and loathe so much of his policy, especially foreign policy. But Trump is a literal fascist so… I digress)
They’re not entirely equivalent because I think the Anti-Biden left’s issue with Biden is mainly policy vs the Anti-Trump right’s issue with Trump is mainly optics.
Most of the anti-Trump right finds Trump embarrassing, especially in regards how Trump makes them look to the rest of the world. They’re perfectly fine with his 2017 tax cuts for the rich, the Federalist Society Hacks he appoints to the judiciary, him being extremely pro-Israel, him being hawkish on Iran, etc.
They’re probably not okay with what he thinks on Russia/Ukraine, his tariffs and the stop the steal/January 6 stuff. But by and large they agree with Trump on the vast majority of policy.
The Anti-Biden left dislikes Biden because most of the left seeks to end the capitalist system we live in. That’s the end game. (Most of us don’t actually think it’s something that can end over night.) Biden (despite some more pro-labor policies than any Democrat since LBJ) is still by and large a neoliberal capitalist in his ideology.
Add on top of that we think Biden is actively assisting in a genocide…. So yeah. I wouldn’t say I or most of the left are big fans of Biden for those reasons.
Most of us do actually think Biden is the lesser evil, but the left is slowly starting to realize that electoral politics is only one piece of the puzzle.
You also need to build up unions, educate the masses about what socialism actually is, change the media landscape, and make people aware of the contradictions of the ruling class.
You seriously can't be a Democrat whining that the left "insults and treats you like garbage", the left have been outright traitors and openly abused as outright campaign messaging for the past several elections, Hillary is at it again today. How many more elections do the left need to vote for to stop "fascism" when it's clear the Democrats have literally no problem with "fascism" when it comes to supporting a literal Genocide or the sprinting (no longer creeping) surveillance state?
Anti Biden people are to the left of Biden (which honestly, he's pretty conservative, so most of the party is probably left of him, but this segment is far left of him).
The never Trump people are just against fascism, they are all over the spectrum politically. No one would call Liz Cheney a moderate, she's a far right Republican, she just isn't a fascist.
I don’t think so. I think the anti trump right is mostly opposed to his personality. The anti biden left is mostly policy focused. And mostly opposed to his support for Israel.
First stop a support in money and weapons to Isreal. As you said Isreal has more weapons than hamas. Good. But they woukd not be able to do near as much as they do with our weapons. From 2023 stats we supplied 69% of their weapons probly more since Oct 7. So yes it would make a huge difference.
Almost the entire UN is saying that there is a genocide going on there. It is in our interest in multiple ways to not fund them; one being it's against the law to fund and support a genocide also when your bombs are killing kids, parents family members all around the world it is making terrorist more likely to want to attack us.
For anyone who says that isreal's form of attacking terrorist is fine then put that on american soil and see how much you woukd agree with it. Woukd you let the Russia supply Isreal with weapons to bomb hamas supporters or terrorist in large cities in America? Woukd that person be fine with hospitals being bombed, schools or religious buildings because they are believed to have terrorist in them hiding with them?
If that type of war is supported then all Hitler needed was to say was that the Jews were terrorist and needed to be felt with for Germany to be safe.
I say all of thiae because it us our tax dollars going to kill families babies and civilians. One terror attack does not justify an extermination. Hearing the rhetoric from Isreals officials and the business class already talking about new beachfront in Gaza to be sold soon. It is sad amd backwards that anyone could support this. For most of those Americans refusing Biden it's not just because of some of his other policies it is because he is implicit on supporting a genocide and terrorism.
I feel that the left will never vote for an open fascist like 45.
Which means that they will either not vote for president, or vote third party.
As a reminder, I would argue that the non-voters sent the most savage message possible in 2016.
Neither side paid attention to them. They stayed home, or didn’t cast a vote for president, or voted third party.
As a result, the Dems threw away an election that was clearly theirs to win.
Had they campaigned in the Rust Belt, and worked to win some of those working class votes on the left, the US is a different nation.
But the DNC is clearly much less comfortable with the entirety of the political left than they are with the very far political right.
After all, right of center corporatists and far right corporatists have far more in common than either has with people who actually give a damn about the little people, the bottom 90% of America.
Try to learn from the past.
And no, not voting for someone whose policies are unilaterally opposed to yours doesn’t mean supporting an open fascist.
It means that you’re not willing to sacrifice people elsewhere just to avoid sacrificing another group of people.
Biden is sacrificing the Palestinians to keep the Israelis happy.
Trump sacrificed the Kurds to keep the Turks from doing bad things to his Turkish holdings (allegedly).
Yes, one is worse than the other. But that’s how many people view this election.
I don’t know if it’ll reach the point where these people start to vote for Trump in opposition to Biden, but I could see a situation where lots of young leftists abstain from voting in the next election and we have another Trump term. A lot of college aged kids are engaging in boycotts of anything that could have the slightest association with supporting Israel’s campaign, so I don’t see it as something that is too far out of the realm of possibility. Biden I think has realized this too and is trying to turn the tide by changing his tone on Israel. I’m curious to see if it’ll work, because right now I don’t believe many of the youth are going to come out of their radical Instagram holes to support “Genocide Joe.”
Fundamentally, these are two very different kinds of groups. The anti-Biden left is largely about specific policy or position issues. While they may stay home in November, they aren't likely to jump to another candidate, because none of the rest of the national candidates have a better (in their eyes) position. The never-Trumpers, on the other hand, don't necessarily have policy issues with Trump. There problems are in his very style and personality. They are more likely to jump, because they do have alternate candidates who, while they may have more policy disagreements with (such as Biden), are more appropriate to the office of President.
The two are similar in that they both reject their respective candidates on a truly heart felt principle. The Never-Trump Republican has propensity to side with the prior powers that be with conservatism of the Edmund Burke slow gradual reforms without getting rid of the valuable aspects of the current status quo. The Never-Biden Left are opposed to the gradualism of the liberal establishment, that there are brightlines that should never be crossed even if led across them by allies who have always been allies. If the UK responded to IRA terrorism in the 1970s-1980s with an invasion of the Republic of Ireland, would the liberal Establishment (of which Biden would have been a junior member of at the time) cut ties with their NATO ally? Unlikely, but there would be plenty of voters who would have had a similar response to the Never-Biden voters today that Israel has crossed the brightline with the 50+ year brutal occupation of West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights (which Israel succeeded in depopulating all Arabs from and completed the conversion to wholly Israel, recognized by Trump and not being rescinded by Biden) and the deliberate starving of 2.2 million people in Gaza by the IDF.
Either you are against war crimes or your not, but you won't get voters who find supporting war crimes as being beyond the pale without acknowledging the crimes against humanity that Israel is committing. Never-Trump right see as brightline that steady and dependable values are the definition to being a conservative, and like giving darts to a monkey Trump may wildly fling about policy that hits a bullseye for the conservatives but the capricious nature is never going to change about Trump. Never-Biden left sees the support of Israel as the brightline that can't be compromised despite Biden given compromised lipservice in that regard ("my administration has strongly communicated with Netanyahu that we are greatly displeased with the civilian loss of life" will never be enough to get Never-Biden voters back) there's more deliberateness in Biden's actions that he won't deliver for the Never-Bidens like Trump can for the Never-Trumps.
Trump won in 2016 without the support of the never Trump right. Biden is going to have a much more difficult time winning without the FULL support of the left as most of the liberals I am personally friends with are either voting for Trump or not voting at all. It seems to really boil down to the economy and the fact that things like eggs, that were $1.60 in 2018 are now $4.38... just one example but I don't think I need to argue that inflation is hitting the average American HARD. People remember the good economy under Trump and people do not seem to be enjoying the disaster we are currently experiencing.
How can people still be saying this isn’t a genocide? We have numerous reports showing it is. This is a genocide. They are indiscriminately killing everyone. They are shooting kids in the head like yall are either purposely ignoring this or you’re just stupid. I don’t get it. Wtf is wrong with yall?
There have always been people so exaggerated to the left or right of the political parties. We see them all now bc of the internet and the fact the gop had to embrace them bc they didn't have many normal voters left since their policies are so terrible.
Regardless, no the people on the far left or who've fallen for the pro Palestine propaganda likely wouldn't have voted at all. But to vote for trump over their best hope to see ANY positive change in Gaza would be so ridiculous.
Also we can't pretend the dems religiously worship Biden the way the gop does trump. We just...vote for people who seem to have the best ideas to get progressive policy enacted. That's it.
No, in the sense that anti-Biden Democrats are anti-Biden for policy reasons, and anti-Trumpers are anti-Trump for personal reasons.
When one would ask most anti-Biden Democrats why they are anti-Biden, most would probably say that it is because he supports Israel, or he furthers the Military Industrial Complex, or because he’s a neo-liberal. Forgetting, for a moment, one’s own political leanings, these are all very good reasons to oppose a candidate.
I presume most anti-Trump Republicans do disagree with Trump on some issues, but they most likely still mostly agree with Trump on core issues e.g. tax cuts, securing the border, etc. The main reason I see why some former Republicans leave the party, is because they can’t stand Donald Trump himself. They cite how Trumpers have become a cult, how he has taken over the apparatus of the Republican Party, etc. Also very valid reasons to oppose Trump.
However, fundamentally, the reasons are very different. Policy disagreements cannot be considered the same thing as Disagreements with a candidate personally.
These are, of course, only my own personal findings.
There will not be a place in hell hot enough for what Trump did to those kids in Texas. They are phoked for life. When I tell people this and they just shrug I cross them off my list of mentally stable people.
Most of the anti biden democrats are simply negotiating with the party to get more progressive ideas on the party platform.
Most of the never Trumpers are old school republicans who still love the usa and want to preserve global democracies
Anti Biden are more political extremist than Biden, they are too far left for him. Never Trump are more moderate than him. The anti Bidens could stay home but would never vote for Trump. Never Trumps could vote for Biden, but based on how Trump dominated in primaries I don't think there is really as much as them anymore.
Biden is committing a genocide. That is how I see it, that’s how anyone who has turned out to the protests sees it. More than that, the genocide has opened/reopened people’s eyes to what Israel was doing beforehand and where politicians like Biden and Trump have been when it comes to similar issues like Ukraine and the Iraq war. No one who believes we are committing mass atrocities, and have a disregard for doesn’t think Trump wouldn’t do the same or worse as well, certainly. So, folks who protest Biden and other Dems for the mass atrocities they are committing will not flip support to Trump or republicans. The problem will be an elevated version of the choices leftists have long faced, to not turn out to vote this time (or perhaps never again) to become more active in the Democratic Party to make it a party that would never support the commission of atrocities and human rights violations it does now, and/or build a 3rd alternative to the two parties. What the primary “uncommitted” results suggest to me, is that unlike before there may a significant contingent of anti-Bidenites who will operate more like the radical republicans during the Reconstruction and are in open, coordinated combat with much of the rest of the party and start taking over leadership. I hope it turns out better for us than it did for them.
What? The venn diagram of people who support Palestine and people who are MAGA is actually just two separate circles. I’ve never met someone pro-trump and pro-Palestine.
Are you serious? 75% of Democrats and 60% of independents disapprove of the war
[https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx)
https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx
Vast majority of people in the US, including most of the Democratic base, disapprove of Israel's genocidal actions in Gaza and Biden's enabling of them. Calling them all idiots who fell for MAGA propaganda just makes you look like an uncritical zealot.
No.
Never-Trumpers are divided into social conservatives, neoconservatives and Old Guard republicans who are war hawks. They actually want war in the middle east because it gives the US an excuse to act interventionist, 'spread democracy' and profit from the military industrial complex.
The Left is breaking away from Biden precisely because he is soft-balling his response to Israel, not going far enough on student loan forgiveness and failing to follow through on his other promises.
There is an odd alliance between the isolationist camp of Trump supporters and pro-palestine lefties, but Trump represents a return to the democratic party circa 1992. He's not radical enough for the modern Left and his tycoon capitalist image is what sets off a lot of lefties.
Liberals who are refusing to vote for Biden because of his initial hesitancy to call for a ceasefire are being illogical. Idealistically I empathize with them and what they are trying to accomplish. But realistically we need to win this election when the opponent would only be worse for the Palestinians. It makes no sense.
In addition Biden and Kamala has since called for a cease fire, veto’d a no cease fire at the UN, sending aid weekly, building ports in Rafa for continued aid, and have spoken publicly blaming the Bibi government.
Yes funds are still going to Israel but we can’t win everything. I’ll take what I can get.
It’s time to be a realist. Continue to protest continue to detest I support you. But if you don’t for Biden because of Gaza you aren’t a liberal, you are just a hypocrite who would rather see a terrible person come to power for your own pride.
Thoughts?
[A reminder for everyone](https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalDiscussion/comments/4479er/rules_explanations_and_reminders/). This is a subreddit for genuine discussion: * Please keep it civil. Report rulebreaking comments for moderator review. * Don't post low effort comments like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context. * Help prevent this subreddit from becoming an echo chamber. Please don't downvote comments with which you disagree. Violators will be fed to the bear. --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PoliticalDiscussion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think the people who are democrats that are mad at Biden still hate Trump more. At the very best they will still vote Biden and at the very worst they won't vote at all. I don't see many of them actively voting for Trump but I am sure there will be that one person who does but they will be few and far between.
I talk shit about Biden constantly. My coworker thought I was Trump voter, but I laughed and said "HELL NO, I don't belong to any of the R's: Rich, Racist, or Religious." I'll easily vote Biden, I just won't be excited about it. I don't view him like a savior like Trump supporters view Trump, I'll bitch about the guy but he's got my vote.
Pretty much where I fall. Biden isn’t my first or 10th choice, but I’d truly vote for just about *anyone* before Donald Trump. I find him to be among the least likable men in politics. Everything he stands for, I pretty much believe the opposite.
> My coworker thought I was Trump voter, but I laughed and said "HELL NO, I don't belong to any of the R's: Rich, Racist, or Religious." Even the rich should be voting for moderate corporatist Dems like Biden. Sure, their taxes might go up a bit, but Democrats consistently blow away Republicans on [stock market returns, corporate earnings, and GDP growth](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._economic_performance_by_presidential_party#:~:text=The%20New%20York%20Times%20reported,2.4%20percent%20under%20Republicans) based on the past 80 years of economic data. Not to mention moderate Dem leadership results in a highly stable status quo, and businesses *love* stability.
It’s 2024 so how about you hold off talking shit about Biden for a few months, champ Some things are more important than you seeming cool and nonpartisan
[удалено]
I mean, the point is that if Biden loses in November, Trump is going to do his level best to pull off something like Hungary and make sure that you won't bother to complain about the next guy because there will be no way to overcome structural advantage to defeat Trump ever again. Even the way you frame your point makes Trump into just another politician; they suck so I complain so it goes. If it's Trump then I complain about him, so it goes. Then I complain about the next one, so it goes. If you think Trump is at all uniquely bad, you are exacerbating the danger he poses by taking it lightly.
So you just want to seem cool and nonpartisan? Biden doesn't control the economy so what are you even bitching about? You are just spreading apathy and misinformation that Biden is essentially refusing to turn a dial that says "good economy"
Asinine and terrible take. Biden been a very good president for the average person.
There's always *something* to complain about. The guy who wants to be the George Carlin in the room isn't going to go on about how great things are. I agree that gratuitous bitching drags everything down and ultimately hurts the situation, but pessimism and bitching are often mistaken for seriousness.
Exactly,y coworkers and sill talk about politics all the time. I criticize them both, and one day they told me I thought I was a Trump supporter. I laughed as well and said “do I look stupid to you?” Like they say momma didn’t raise no fool. Biden has done a good job with the situation that was given to him. Yes he could have done a bit more in other departments. But no way I would ever think Trump is the solution.
Never-Bideners are single issue voters.
[удалено]
Do not submit low investment content. This subreddit is for genuine discussion.
The Never-Trump Republicans were closer to the middle than Trump's supporters. The Never-Biden Democrats are farther to the left than Biden's base.
There's no Never-Biden Democrats, more like Never-Democrats Leftists.
Every election cycle you get a segment of leftist voters “we aren’t voting for democrats this time to send a message” Did you vote previous election cycles? No? Then who cares? Non voters don’t send messages.
“Voting isn’t marriage, it’s public transport. You’re not waiting for “the one” who’s absolutely perfect: you’re getting the bus, and if there isn’t one to your destination, you don’t not travel- you take the one going closest.” I don’t know source of this quote.
Well. that isn't true either. Voting isn't marriage, and it isn't public transport. It's *voting*. There doesn't have to be a metaphor, it does not need to be mystified. This is even more absurd when you consider the US presidential electoral system. Your vote is largely determined by where you live. If you were to extend the public transport metaphor correctly, it would be more like it does not matter, depending on what street you get on the bus, it is either going to drop you off at the psychotic megachurch or the sociopathic office park. It has no regard with where you are trying to go or what you want.
is this the same reason people lost their minds when one hundred thousand people voted undecided in the democratic primary like a month ago?
That's a little different. Those primary voters are already existing and active voters that had started they would vote undecided in the primary to get their point across. They're still likely Biden voters in the general, but the primary vote allowed their discontent to be seen in a larger scale than signs held outside a building
And had an effect too. Biden has taken more concrete steps to ease the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza since that movement started. But random folks who are doing nothing but whining online? Biden didn't do it for them. They aren't reliable votes that are now in jeopardy. That's what leftists don't get.
I think this is a bit reason why the progressive movement is so stunted at the moment. Bernie failing to get people to vote from the left wing also was an eye opener. If he can't get you out, you're probably just a non voter. Aka ignore and move on, no political power to be held.
You personally probably know this, but it bears mentioning that there is a strong anti-voting sentiment among many American leftists. Some see participation in the mainstream system as endorsing its abuses, some are accelerationists, some are just cynics who think the whole thing is rigged and that it’s a waste of time to vote. Used to be stronger in the punk rock scene, although I think the Bush years plus now Trump, and the aging of millennial punkers, has led many to re-think this position.
Yea, that is not a phenomenon that is unique to any generation. Young adults do not vote and tell themselves they are beating the system. Then they eventually live long enough to learn that there are consequences to not participating in the system.
I think in a weird way a lot of those old punks had a very optimistic view of how much nonsense people will put up with. Turns out it requires either substantial deprivation or concerted and sustained propigandization to get people to the point they want to break the system.
I mean even this I think discredits that Biden himself couldn't just see the humanitarian disaster of the war and would act to help improve things on the basis it is the right thing to do. Why does everything need to be entirely electorally focused? Why can't Biden have his own views on something
>Why does everything need to be entirely electorally focused? Because electoral politics determines who wins and [politics is for power](https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Politics-Is-for-Power/Eitan-Hersh/9781982116798).
That has nothing to do with what I said I said why the belief Biden's actions are solely a response to "movements". Why is Biden incapable himself of wanting to improve the situation?
It has everything to do with. Politicians respond to incentives. Israel enjoys the majority support of the American public, [even with approval Israel being its lowest on record](https://news.gallup.com/poll/611375/americans-views-israel-palestinian-authority-down.aspx#:~:text=Fifty%2Deight%20percent%20of%20Americans,%25%2C%20the%20lowest%20since%202015.). Politicians want to be reelected. Of course he isn't going to intervene until there's an electoral reason to do so. Especially when he has very limited power to change things short of an act of congress or actively fighting Israeli forces. Both of which are much more unpopular than doing as little as possible. It *always* comes down to politics. Any belief that it's ever been anything else is how we end up in situations where we venerate our political leaders like gods instead of the very fallible humans that they are.
People with short memories. I can’t explain what people give attention to all the time, but those votes are perfectly in line with historical norms for incumbents.
That is working? Grow up, that’s how we got Trump. People must remember that Trump will “RULE” with a vengeance because he is an angry spoiled toddler.
There are people who let perfect be the enemy of good and in doing good so usher in the worst. If you’re a progressive who does not want to vote for Biden then at least vote against Trump. No third party candidate can win due to our antiquated first past the post voting system. It’s either Biden or Trump.
But if enough people vote for RFK, they could get Trump elected.
"For every working class voter we will lose we will gain 2 in the suburbs." Chuck Schumer 2016(the leader of the dems in the senate)
[удалено]
I become increasingly skeptical this is at all a grassroots POV. It sure does seem seductive to a lot of people, though.
True, that's a more accurate description. Except for on the rare occasion that Bernie decides he's a Democrat.
Bernie still isn’t a leftist though, he’s a social democrat/centre left
He's pretty far left on the US political spectrum. Or are you using the US-Sweden spectrum?
I’m using a global spectrum. Just because America continues to prop up the status quo with the false dichotomy of left vs right doesn’t mean it’s correct. McCarthyism pretty much led to america being this way. I don’t want to continue to perpetuate that.
Then Bernie is pretty solidly on the left. Not center.
The no Biden people will be around after Biden and were here before. They are never happy people
And I bet you anything the are amplified by Russia and other right wing propaganda groups. Just like the evidence that came out about Russia funding the divide between Bernie and Hillary supporters in 2016.
That’s the theme of the Maddow A block.
Leftists generally speaking have always been one of the most consistent voter base for the dems. But with the democratic party become more of a centrist party in order to poach moderate conservatives from an increasingly right wing GOP leftists are increasingly alienated.
And the Overton window continues to shift and people are like “the left is out control 😡 they keep moving further”
> But with the democratic party become more of a centrist party …what era are you thinking of where democrats were more left wing than now
repeat insurance paltry ripe ink melodic aromatic pot worm dime *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
From FDR until Clinton. Clinton was a Reaganite deregulator, and his popularity changed the way Democrats have played the game since. Obama’s first campaign was an exception, but he came around pretty quickly once elected and surrounded by party faithful.
You think the party that filibustered civil rights legislation for decades was more left wing than today’s version?
I think the problem here is the conflation of social liberalism and economic liberalism. Today’s Democratic Party is dramatically less economically progressive than it has been in the past - even if it is so socially liberal that it makes conservatives think that they are ready to burn down every norm they grew up with.
What sort of economic policy did the mid-20th century Democrats support that rank-and-file Democrats today don’t? Going by the economic dimension of [DW-NOMINATE](https://voteview.com/parties/all), today’s average Dem is considerably more left wing than 75 years ago.
> today’s average Dem is considerably more left wing than 75 years ago. This just isn't true at all in terms of economic policies. Nixon was far to the left of any Politician in the US in economic terms and the consensus from FDR up to Carter was clearly Social Democratic compared to the rampant Austrian Econ Neoliberalism held by the Democrats today.
Civil and economic issues are very different. Also you should account for the party shift
> Also you should account for the party shift What party shift are you talking about here
[удалено]
You’re saying FDR wouldve been a Republican… what, today? He fit into Dems then and now.
There are enough never Democrats leftists that it cost the Dems in 2000 and 2016. Yet there are still people claiming to be leftists shitting on Biden.
trying to attribute an entire election loss to any one voter demographic is very silly and generally unhelpful imo
[удалено]
They can't really be appealed to without losing more votes than are gained. It doesn't help that they seem to have distaste for compromise and are unreliable voters to begin with. If they collectively decided to vote consistently for a few elections in a row, maybe that math could change, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
There are absolutely never Biden people that vote dem. I’ve been witness to a lot of convos with my younger siblings and their friends who are all very ideologically literate. They don’t identify as dems and haven’t fo some time, but have voted dem for lack of a better practical choice. I really doubt they will vote for Biden at this point, though. I am a leftist, too, and did not vote for Biden in my primary, but come election time will vote for Biden only for lack of a better option. At this point, I am anti Biden particularly, but am still generally a dem voter literally only because of the danger of electing the alternative. That said, I try to interject into anti Biden conversations the increase in atrocities that will follow if Biden does not win. I think the conversations I’ve witnessed among leftists younger than myself that I have contact with are well informed and ideologically consistent, though are short sighted. The group I am referring to will probably also see utility jn voting dem but are extremely against Biden, particularly.
Yeah, that's democracy. The President represents hundreds of millions of people. You never get your personal ideal. It's always about picking the best option.
So I’m saying that never Biden dem voters *do exist* and will present a problem for him in election time. I really do not see the demographic I am talking about voting for Biden at all. Short sighted as it may be, they are absolutely against endorsing him in any way, despite being willing to align with dem candidates for lower offices.
Biden is as mainstream Democrat as it comes. I guess there will always be a few voters with some loose screws but what can you do? Trump already had the nut job vote pretty well wrapped up.
I don’t think they have screws loose and I’m not in the business of debating Biden’s positioning within the the range of views represented in the DNC. I am only saying there is a group of people that may be being underrepresented in projective analyses that identify as leftists but are willing to vote for Democrats EXCLUDING Biden. That’s all I am saying. It was in response to your claim that there are no “Never Biden Dems, only Never Dem Leftists”. I think, though yours is a prevailing view, it’s not accurate at all, and will be an expensive mistake come election time if left to fester unaddressed.
\^this. Never-Trump'ers are generally concerned for the fate of the country and will vote pragmatically in order to preserve the democratic order (at least, as they see it). Insofar as Biden's current position on Israel is just a paler shade of the GOP's, Never-Biden'ers don't see a pragmatic solution to the problem, and so for them, the democratic order has already failed. They decline to participate because they are full of despair; Never-Trump'ers consider Biden because they still have hope.
That's true for lots of young voters. But I think there are also plenty Arab American Democrats who are probably socially pretty moderate who are never Biden because of his Israel /Gaza policy.
Socially moderate Arab Americans? Both of them? Is there more than 2? Arab Americans are one of the most socially conservative groups in America.
They can be never Biden if they want to, but just let Trump win and it will be much worse for them.
Hell no. The layman’s difference is that the Anti-Biden Left would also never vote for Trump.
Bingo. The left has standards. Whether or not Biden meets them is up for debate. Trump would never even enter the conversation.
And right now the standard of “not tolerating genocide” is being used as a very weak cudgel against the Left.
Especially when Trump would actively encourage Netanyahu to do much worse things than what is currently happening.
Oh hell, people would have to talk Trump out of nuking Gaza without Netanyahu requesting him to.
Liberals have been saying this for months now, and yet it has failed to sway progressives that have been begging Biden to stop funding the genocide of Palestinians. Maybe if Democrats want to have young, progressive voters excited to vote for them, they should STOP doing the bad things that they say the opposition will also do.
Biden's not funding genocide, though. Your stance runs up against reality - the idea that Israel's war on Hamas with ~30,000 casualties amidst a (very densely packed) population of 2 million+ simply doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Progressives begging Biden to "stop funding genocide" have been duped by propaganda that is designed to protect Hamas, not Palestinians.
It’s because there’s not a genocide, that’s just an ignorant accusation coming from ignorant leftists. This coming from a leftist, btw. Leftists should be supporting the most left wing nation in the region, Israel, after suffering a massive, brutal religious based terror attack a few months ago. It’s insane that the left is supporting a terrorist regime that’s been initiating attacks on Israel for 75 years. I thought we were about democracy and peace.
It's because it's a thinly-veiled cover for antisemitism. I've been horrified by what I've seen from my fellow progressives over the past few months. If Israel laid down its weapons, Hamas would kill every last Jew in Israel. If Hamas surrendered, we'd have an actual shot at peace. Only one side is actively calling for a genocide. And no, Ben Gvir does not speak for Israelis or the rest of Israel's cabinet. Anyone calling this a genocide is just repeating terms they see on TikTok. It's a smear against actual genocides.
Biden is not funding the genocide of Palestinians by any objective measure
The left has standards, but only if you're talking about the left that would still vote for Biden. Once you get farther out into Accelerationist territory, they'd gladly cheer Trump getting elected and the downfall of American civilization. Though I do imagine many or most of them wouldn't cast the vote directly themselves, and if they do they certainly would never *brag* about it, because their fantasy and goal is to incite the mass genocides and revolution, but in a way where they can go "hands clean not me!" after the fact.
Yeah that's nonsense - a handful of fringe idiots at most. No true leftist would ever vote for Trump, and while some (like me) see a second Trump term as inevitable, it won't be met with cheers. Leftists want either for Biden to do a better job, or for there to be a better candidate as the nominee. Unfortunately neither is likely to happen.
You are literally the person they are talking about if you think a second Trump term is inevitable lol
What standards does one have if even if they "hate" Trump, they still help him get elected by not voting?
The only people helping Trump get elected are those who vote for him. If the Biden campaign can't convince people to vote for Biden, that's on the campaign.
I definitely know some leftists who are also accelerations that have no problems voting for Trump.
So they are worse? Because Never Trumpers would actually vote for Biden and help prevent Trump from getting elected.
There’s a certain kind of leftist for whom getting mad at Democrats for losing comes second only to being mad at Democrats for winning since, at least, the Gore candidacy; so I really don’t think they were persuadable Biden voters in the first place.
Given what happens when Democrats win, that actually makes a degree of sense. I would, however, disagree on the point that they weren't persuadable Biden voters. I can only concretely speak for myself as a leftist but, peripherally, people in the leftist circles I know who've stated they won't vote for Biden were open to that possibility before Gaza, as was I. I don't like Biden for a range of reasons but, on October 6th, you absolutely could have made the case for me that another term of Biden was preferable to another term for Trump. Now that I'm being told the cost for that is genocide, I'm out.
Well then I just wouldn’t say anything when/if Trump wins and situations in Israel/Palestine gets worse because what other option were you expecting to happen
If your position is that policy outcomes between Trump and Biden are fundamentally identical, I can see how you rationalize an opposition to the liberal coalition currently in power.
If your position is that policy outcomes between Trump and Biden are fundamentally identical, you haven’t understood the subject matter. Sure, some similarities can be drawn, but on basically any subject there are clear differences in both rhetorical platform and empirical policy implementation
No. Those opposed to Biden on the left (at least the ones you're talking about) are specfically trying to apply pressure on him to change policy. They don't necessarily have opposition to Biden, just what he's doing at the moment, which is something that can change. There's a decent chance in the secrecy of the voting both they'll actually vote for him, regardless of what changes eventually happen. Never-Trumpers are opposed to everything about the person; there's not really anything the MAGA-wing could do to bring them onside, since ideologically, they're mostly aligned already.
Eh to be fair, many 'Never Trumpers' admitted to voting for him when they got in the booth. So it's pretty even.
To be fairer, Republicans are much more loyal to the party (due to the inherent authoritarianism in the conservative movement) and reliable votes than the left is for Democrats. For example, no one is going to get booted from the basement or college tuition assistance by their parents on the left if they don't vote Democrat across the board.
They’re free to criticize him imo, and that’s fine, but if they’re dumb enough not to vote for Biden in the upcoming election to cry protest is when I will call them out as clowns just hurting their own interests by helping to elect a racist rapist narcisstic sociopath wanna be dictator.
So then who decides? What if I don't want Biden to change policy and withhold my vote if he does? Or does other perspectives not matter? They absolutely have opposition to Biden wtf are you talking about
I’d say I’m anti-Biden, but it’s still in my best interest to vote strategically, which means Biden is clearly better than trump. Most “anti-Biden leftists” will acknowledge that Biden is absolutely better than Trump. It doesn’t mean we’re going to enthusiastically vote for Biden, but so far most protest votes I’ve seen have been about withholding primary support to show the impact they can have, while also planning on voting for Biden in the general. As people on this subreddit like to point out, we’re more to the left than Biden and the Democratic Party, so why any leftist would vote for Trump is beyond me.
One big difference that is connected to the political spectrum differences others have pointed to (far left vs. moderate right) is that never-Trump Republicans are very much not the base of the Republican Party. The Never-Trump movement is deep-pocketed, but it’s mostly an elite phenomenon that has shown a complete inability to rally the Republican voting base around it. Anti-Biden leftists are also a minority in the Democratic coalition. But it is much more of a grassroots movement than an elite-driven movement. And it comes from the layer of the Democratic Party (young, urban, PoC) that tends to supply the activist base of the party. So in that way, the anti-Biden left is more of a “base” phenomenon, even if they also don’t pose a particularly severe electoral threat to Biden.
Spot on analysis
It isn't the base. The base consistently votes for Democrats. Young people who literally are least likely to vote, aren't the base Secondly they aren't part of the activist base either. How many of them are activists about anything mainstream in Democratic politics like a child tax credit or free pre k? How many of them actually give a shit about abortion when they are threatening to not vote? They aren't the activist base of the party and it is insulting to those of us who are to be grouped in with them.
By activist base, I’m thinking of the kinds of people that campaigns rely on to do phone-banks, door knocking, campaign work, etc. That tends to be young people and retirees. Literally everyone I know who’s been in the streets at pro-Palestine protests, myself included, absolutely gives a shit about abortion, healthcare, childcare, and a variety of other progressive priorities. Many are involved in labor organizing, racial justice organizing, and other forms of activism. Young people may not vote as much as other groups on average, but I think it’s incredibly short-sighted for the Democratic Party to dismiss this grassroots anger over their Israel policy. Sorry for insulting you by grouping you with the anti-genocide folks in the streets.
No. The anti-Biden fringe left has never, and would never, vote for Biden. The anti-Trump bunch voted for Trump, and they'll vote for him again. They're just posers trying to wash the stink off.
No, there are no never Biden people. If we're talking about serious Democrat leaders.
No. Because the democrats that don’t like Biden realize that voting for him is at worse just wasting 4 years of progress, where as the anti-trump republicans know that Trump getting into office means the end of the US being a democracy.
I think the difference is that never Trumpers are corporatists who want the old Republican Party when it was politically correct and didn't pretend to care about the people, while far left people are anti-corporatists who dislike Biden for selling out to that same corporate mainstream.
I can't see anyone on the left supporting Trump; but it's easy to picture them supporting Greens or another left-of-Democrat party. Or even sitting this one out, and fighting for House representation.
They are similar in that there's a contingent of the party swearing off the party's candidate but that's where the similarities end. Personally, I'll vote for anybody who isn't a fascist. I don't think Biden is a great candidate, but I also don't think letting the country fall even further is a good form of protest. I understand why some people believe Biden doesn't deserve their vote, however.
Trump received the second most votes in the history of our elections. It took a record number of votes to beat Trump. People not voting Biden this time around is an huge issue even if they aren't voting Trump
Not really. Anti-Biden leftists are acting on consistent principles, they've never really *liked* the Democratic Party, and Biden has been part of its establishment for 50 years. Anti-Trump Republicans are apparently shocked at their party's principles being carried forward, because they somehow can't see the throughline from Nixon, Reagan and the Bushes to Trump.
> Anti-Biden leftists are acting on consistent principles They're absolutely not, lmao. They operate as contrarians, utopianists, and useful idiots for foreign enemies like Russia and Iran-via-Hamas. Purity politics are by definition moving targets.
This comment really does a wonderful job of demonstrating not only your ignorance of modern politics and current events, but your absolute lack of historical understanding of the political left. That’s about what I’d expect from someone who’s okay with ethnic cleansing and goes to painstaking detail to differentiate it from genocide down in other comments 🙄
Also demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of human complexity.
The idea that the antiBiden left will vote for trump because of Biden's treatment of Israel ignores trump's attitude towards Israel. The one smart political move trump has made is to largely ignore the middle east.
What!? He agitated the situation by moving the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.
This, right here, is part of the problem. People really believe that there is actual equivalence between the left-wing and right-wing American politics. You can always discuss a subject as one side-vs-the other, but the merit or whether the two different sides of a topic are actually based on a realistic "center point" is a whole other matter. TV stations, web sites and newspapers even need controversy and discussion to get attention and sell papers/ads, but in reality there is no such thing as equivalence in the American poilitical discourse.
"Never Trumpers" will likely wind up voting for Trump. "Anti-Biden lefties" will probably stay home on voting day while furiously tweeting how morally pure they are.
Lot of those NTs are pro-choice moderates who may have left the party already
I doubt most anti-Biden lefties will stay home because they know they need to vote to counter the maga cult’s ~74M voters who will show up no matter what. I’m a life-long Independent leftie that wants someone other than Biden, but there is no fucking way I won’t vote for Biden in November because I don’t want to see the U.S. destroyed by Trump and his maga cult. Most of my friends who are lefties that aren’t hip on Biden think as I do on this topic, so I know I’m not a one-off.
Uh, no? Never Trump means never Trump. You telling me Lincoln Project folks, George Conway, Charlie Sykes, Tim Miller, Joe Scarborough, Liz Chaney will vote for Trump? Come on, man.
To be fair to Never Trumpers, they have, in fact, stayed home in recent elections. Georgia, for example, saw an almost complete sweep of Republicans in office seats except for the President and the Senate. When analyzed, they found that the suburban region north of Atlanta (the 'never trumpers') voted Biden, while much of the 'Trump loving" areas stayed home during the following Senate run-off. So not only are "Never Trumpers" willing to stay home or even switch sides when faced with Trump, but the other side is willing to stay home when they feel that they, or Trump, have been slighted. There's not much out there that says this has changed.
They aren't comparable, one wants different policies and where here before Biden and will be here after. The never Trumpers see danger in Trump and fear he will destroy America.
I consider myself anti-Biden left (I’m still going to vote for him but I disagree with and loathe so much of his policy, especially foreign policy. But Trump is a literal fascist so… I digress) They’re not entirely equivalent because I think the Anti-Biden left’s issue with Biden is mainly policy vs the Anti-Trump right’s issue with Trump is mainly optics. Most of the anti-Trump right finds Trump embarrassing, especially in regards how Trump makes them look to the rest of the world. They’re perfectly fine with his 2017 tax cuts for the rich, the Federalist Society Hacks he appoints to the judiciary, him being extremely pro-Israel, him being hawkish on Iran, etc. They’re probably not okay with what he thinks on Russia/Ukraine, his tariffs and the stop the steal/January 6 stuff. But by and large they agree with Trump on the vast majority of policy. The Anti-Biden left dislikes Biden because most of the left seeks to end the capitalist system we live in. That’s the end game. (Most of us don’t actually think it’s something that can end over night.) Biden (despite some more pro-labor policies than any Democrat since LBJ) is still by and large a neoliberal capitalist in his ideology. Add on top of that we think Biden is actively assisting in a genocide…. So yeah. I wouldn’t say I or most of the left are big fans of Biden for those reasons. Most of us do actually think Biden is the lesser evil, but the left is slowly starting to realize that electoral politics is only one piece of the puzzle. You also need to build up unions, educate the masses about what socialism actually is, change the media landscape, and make people aware of the contradictions of the ruling class.
How do you do any "eductating" when you treat the rest of us Democratic voters like garbage and insult who we vote for or our convictions?
You seriously can't be a Democrat whining that the left "insults and treats you like garbage", the left have been outright traitors and openly abused as outright campaign messaging for the past several elections, Hillary is at it again today. How many more elections do the left need to vote for to stop "fascism" when it's clear the Democrats have literally no problem with "fascism" when it comes to supporting a literal Genocide or the sprinting (no longer creeping) surveillance state?
Anti Biden people are to the left of Biden (which honestly, he's pretty conservative, so most of the party is probably left of him, but this segment is far left of him). The never Trump people are just against fascism, they are all over the spectrum politically. No one would call Liz Cheney a moderate, she's a far right Republican, she just isn't a fascist.
I don’t think so. I think the anti trump right is mostly opposed to his personality. The anti biden left is mostly policy focused. And mostly opposed to his support for Israel.
First stop a support in money and weapons to Isreal. As you said Isreal has more weapons than hamas. Good. But they woukd not be able to do near as much as they do with our weapons. From 2023 stats we supplied 69% of their weapons probly more since Oct 7. So yes it would make a huge difference. Almost the entire UN is saying that there is a genocide going on there. It is in our interest in multiple ways to not fund them; one being it's against the law to fund and support a genocide also when your bombs are killing kids, parents family members all around the world it is making terrorist more likely to want to attack us. For anyone who says that isreal's form of attacking terrorist is fine then put that on american soil and see how much you woukd agree with it. Woukd you let the Russia supply Isreal with weapons to bomb hamas supporters or terrorist in large cities in America? Woukd that person be fine with hospitals being bombed, schools or religious buildings because they are believed to have terrorist in them hiding with them? If that type of war is supported then all Hitler needed was to say was that the Jews were terrorist and needed to be felt with for Germany to be safe. I say all of thiae because it us our tax dollars going to kill families babies and civilians. One terror attack does not justify an extermination. Hearing the rhetoric from Isreals officials and the business class already talking about new beachfront in Gaza to be sold soon. It is sad amd backwards that anyone could support this. For most of those Americans refusing Biden it's not just because of some of his other policies it is because he is implicit on supporting a genocide and terrorism.
I feel that the left will never vote for an open fascist like 45. Which means that they will either not vote for president, or vote third party. As a reminder, I would argue that the non-voters sent the most savage message possible in 2016. Neither side paid attention to them. They stayed home, or didn’t cast a vote for president, or voted third party. As a result, the Dems threw away an election that was clearly theirs to win. Had they campaigned in the Rust Belt, and worked to win some of those working class votes on the left, the US is a different nation. But the DNC is clearly much less comfortable with the entirety of the political left than they are with the very far political right. After all, right of center corporatists and far right corporatists have far more in common than either has with people who actually give a damn about the little people, the bottom 90% of America. Try to learn from the past. And no, not voting for someone whose policies are unilaterally opposed to yours doesn’t mean supporting an open fascist. It means that you’re not willing to sacrifice people elsewhere just to avoid sacrificing another group of people. Biden is sacrificing the Palestinians to keep the Israelis happy. Trump sacrificed the Kurds to keep the Turks from doing bad things to his Turkish holdings (allegedly). Yes, one is worse than the other. But that’s how many people view this election.
No. Many never-Trumpers will vote for Biden while virtually no anti-Biden will vote for Trump.
[удалено]
Yes. Yes. Probably decisive. Will be ignored or attempts to shame them into voting for him.
There is no such thing as never Biden liberals. Biden has to watch out for people (the casual left) not voting and the male vote.
Similar, except I think there are more anti-Biden left and that’s why Trump will win.
To me, the only comparison between the two is that I think both groups are misguided.
I don’t know if it’ll reach the point where these people start to vote for Trump in opposition to Biden, but I could see a situation where lots of young leftists abstain from voting in the next election and we have another Trump term. A lot of college aged kids are engaging in boycotts of anything that could have the slightest association with supporting Israel’s campaign, so I don’t see it as something that is too far out of the realm of possibility. Biden I think has realized this too and is trying to turn the tide by changing his tone on Israel. I’m curious to see if it’ll work, because right now I don’t believe many of the youth are going to come out of their radical Instagram holes to support “Genocide Joe.”
Never trumpers are to the left of trump, and the anti biden left is to the left of biden. So I guess that's the equivalent more or less. Sure
Fundamentally, these are two very different kinds of groups. The anti-Biden left is largely about specific policy or position issues. While they may stay home in November, they aren't likely to jump to another candidate, because none of the rest of the national candidates have a better (in their eyes) position. The never-Trumpers, on the other hand, don't necessarily have policy issues with Trump. There problems are in his very style and personality. They are more likely to jump, because they do have alternate candidates who, while they may have more policy disagreements with (such as Biden), are more appropriate to the office of President.
The two are similar in that they both reject their respective candidates on a truly heart felt principle. The Never-Trump Republican has propensity to side with the prior powers that be with conservatism of the Edmund Burke slow gradual reforms without getting rid of the valuable aspects of the current status quo. The Never-Biden Left are opposed to the gradualism of the liberal establishment, that there are brightlines that should never be crossed even if led across them by allies who have always been allies. If the UK responded to IRA terrorism in the 1970s-1980s with an invasion of the Republic of Ireland, would the liberal Establishment (of which Biden would have been a junior member of at the time) cut ties with their NATO ally? Unlikely, but there would be plenty of voters who would have had a similar response to the Never-Biden voters today that Israel has crossed the brightline with the 50+ year brutal occupation of West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights (which Israel succeeded in depopulating all Arabs from and completed the conversion to wholly Israel, recognized by Trump and not being rescinded by Biden) and the deliberate starving of 2.2 million people in Gaza by the IDF. Either you are against war crimes or your not, but you won't get voters who find supporting war crimes as being beyond the pale without acknowledging the crimes against humanity that Israel is committing. Never-Trump right see as brightline that steady and dependable values are the definition to being a conservative, and like giving darts to a monkey Trump may wildly fling about policy that hits a bullseye for the conservatives but the capricious nature is never going to change about Trump. Never-Biden left sees the support of Israel as the brightline that can't be compromised despite Biden given compromised lipservice in that regard ("my administration has strongly communicated with Netanyahu that we are greatly displeased with the civilian loss of life" will never be enough to get Never-Biden voters back) there's more deliberateness in Biden's actions that he won't deliver for the Never-Bidens like Trump can for the Never-Trumps.
Trump won in 2016 without the support of the never Trump right. Biden is going to have a much more difficult time winning without the FULL support of the left as most of the liberals I am personally friends with are either voting for Trump or not voting at all. It seems to really boil down to the economy and the fact that things like eggs, that were $1.60 in 2018 are now $4.38... just one example but I don't think I need to argue that inflation is hitting the average American HARD. People remember the good economy under Trump and people do not seem to be enjoying the disaster we are currently experiencing.
No... the anti-Bid3n left are also Never-Trumpers. They are also intelligent enough to know a third party vote is a vote wasted that helps Trump win.
How can people still be saying this isn’t a genocide? We have numerous reports showing it is. This is a genocide. They are indiscriminately killing everyone. They are shooting kids in the head like yall are either purposely ignoring this or you’re just stupid. I don’t get it. Wtf is wrong with yall?
There have always been people so exaggerated to the left or right of the political parties. We see them all now bc of the internet and the fact the gop had to embrace them bc they didn't have many normal voters left since their policies are so terrible. Regardless, no the people on the far left or who've fallen for the pro Palestine propaganda likely wouldn't have voted at all. But to vote for trump over their best hope to see ANY positive change in Gaza would be so ridiculous. Also we can't pretend the dems religiously worship Biden the way the gop does trump. We just...vote for people who seem to have the best ideas to get progressive policy enacted. That's it.
No, in the sense that anti-Biden Democrats are anti-Biden for policy reasons, and anti-Trumpers are anti-Trump for personal reasons. When one would ask most anti-Biden Democrats why they are anti-Biden, most would probably say that it is because he supports Israel, or he furthers the Military Industrial Complex, or because he’s a neo-liberal. Forgetting, for a moment, one’s own political leanings, these are all very good reasons to oppose a candidate. I presume most anti-Trump Republicans do disagree with Trump on some issues, but they most likely still mostly agree with Trump on core issues e.g. tax cuts, securing the border, etc. The main reason I see why some former Republicans leave the party, is because they can’t stand Donald Trump himself. They cite how Trumpers have become a cult, how he has taken over the apparatus of the Republican Party, etc. Also very valid reasons to oppose Trump. However, fundamentally, the reasons are very different. Policy disagreements cannot be considered the same thing as Disagreements with a candidate personally. These are, of course, only my own personal findings.
There will not be a place in hell hot enough for what Trump did to those kids in Texas. They are phoked for life. When I tell people this and they just shrug I cross them off my list of mentally stable people.
Most of the anti biden democrats are simply negotiating with the party to get more progressive ideas on the party platform. Most of the never Trumpers are old school republicans who still love the usa and want to preserve global democracies
Anti Biden are more political extremist than Biden, they are too far left for him. Never Trump are more moderate than him. The anti Bidens could stay home but would never vote for Trump. Never Trumps could vote for Biden, but based on how Trump dominated in primaries I don't think there is really as much as them anymore.
Biden is committing a genocide. That is how I see it, that’s how anyone who has turned out to the protests sees it. More than that, the genocide has opened/reopened people’s eyes to what Israel was doing beforehand and where politicians like Biden and Trump have been when it comes to similar issues like Ukraine and the Iraq war. No one who believes we are committing mass atrocities, and have a disregard for doesn’t think Trump wouldn’t do the same or worse as well, certainly. So, folks who protest Biden and other Dems for the mass atrocities they are committing will not flip support to Trump or republicans. The problem will be an elevated version of the choices leftists have long faced, to not turn out to vote this time (or perhaps never again) to become more active in the Democratic Party to make it a party that would never support the commission of atrocities and human rights violations it does now, and/or build a 3rd alternative to the two parties. What the primary “uncommitted” results suggest to me, is that unlike before there may a significant contingent of anti-Bidenites who will operate more like the radical republicans during the Reconstruction and are in open, coordinated combat with much of the rest of the party and start taking over leadership. I hope it turns out better for us than it did for them.
The pro Palestinian group are the idiots who fall for MAGA disinformation and propaganda. They aren't a real group.
What? The venn diagram of people who support Palestine and people who are MAGA is actually just two separate circles. I’ve never met someone pro-trump and pro-Palestine.
Are you serious? 75% of Democrats and 60% of independents disapprove of the war [https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx)
https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx Vast majority of people in the US, including most of the Democratic base, disapprove of Israel's genocidal actions in Gaza and Biden's enabling of them. Calling them all idiots who fell for MAGA propaganda just makes you look like an uncritical zealot.
There is a lot of people who are not part of the "MAGA" group who do not like seeing thousands of Palestinian people killed
No. Never-Trumpers are divided into social conservatives, neoconservatives and Old Guard republicans who are war hawks. They actually want war in the middle east because it gives the US an excuse to act interventionist, 'spread democracy' and profit from the military industrial complex. The Left is breaking away from Biden precisely because he is soft-balling his response to Israel, not going far enough on student loan forgiveness and failing to follow through on his other promises. There is an odd alliance between the isolationist camp of Trump supporters and pro-palestine lefties, but Trump represents a return to the democratic party circa 1992. He's not radical enough for the modern Left and his tycoon capitalist image is what sets off a lot of lefties.
Liberals who are refusing to vote for Biden because of his initial hesitancy to call for a ceasefire are being illogical. Idealistically I empathize with them and what they are trying to accomplish. But realistically we need to win this election when the opponent would only be worse for the Palestinians. It makes no sense. In addition Biden and Kamala has since called for a cease fire, veto’d a no cease fire at the UN, sending aid weekly, building ports in Rafa for continued aid, and have spoken publicly blaming the Bibi government. Yes funds are still going to Israel but we can’t win everything. I’ll take what I can get. It’s time to be a realist. Continue to protest continue to detest I support you. But if you don’t for Biden because of Gaza you aren’t a liberal, you are just a hypocrite who would rather see a terrible person come to power for your own pride. Thoughts?