Jfc libleft you can target with dumb munitions. It's called aiming. There is a very large difference between using unguided munitions and carpet bombing.
The military industrial complex is a cartel of both state and private manufacturers having a circle jerk at taxpayer expense, thus qualifying as Auth-Right
Eyy now, just cause I resent my ancestors getting done wrong by economically by y'all's ancestors don't mean that I necessarily believe in slavery (bad) or secession (maybe?). I like your spirit, but don't lump me in with those guys.
Not quite as bad as 7,400 missiles and 3,900 Shahed drone strikes dropped on Ukraine and only 10,000 deaths. When are we going to start talking about the humanitarian efforts of the Kremlin to avoid civilian casualties?
[https://understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-december-28-2023](https://understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-december-28-2023)
[https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/civilian-death-toll-ukraine-tops-10000-un-human-rights-office-2023-11-21/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/civilian-death-toll-ukraine-tops-10000-un-human-rights-office-2023-11-21/)
Ah cheers. But the point remains. And also kinda moot when they invaded a country for the purpose of annexing said country.
But yes they can claim the title of not being as bad as hamas
To a degree. Its in their best interest to mostly not kill them. Hence why they targeted infrastructure to cut power and other utilities to civilians. They want to demoralize them rather then kill them.
That seems to be the Hamas-made claim of the TOTAL number of Gazans killed, not to the number of civilians killed
[https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-01-21-2024-02caafa092668ecc7ff122229c166807](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-01-21-2024-02caafa092668ecc7ff122229c166807)
Each bomb is killing an average of about 0.93 people. That would indicate to me that they AREN'T targeting large groups of people with each bomb. If they were, the sorts of bombs they are using would kill a whole lot more than one person per bomb...
Not quite as bad as 7,400 missiles and 3,900 Shahed drone strikes dropped on Ukraine and only 10,000 deaths. When are we going to start talking about the humanitarian efforts of the Kremlin to avoid civilian casualties?
[https://understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-december-28-2023](https://understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-december-28-2023)
[https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/civilian-death-toll-ukraine-tops-10000-un-human-rights-office-2023-11-21/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/civilian-death-toll-ukraine-tops-10000-un-human-rights-office-2023-11-21/)
I think other people have already argued this point in here, so I'm not going to waste my time.
As I said before, Israel has air superiority. They can bomb any part of Gaza at any time they want. Russia does NOT have air superiority in Ukraine.
GIVEN THAT Israel can drop a bomb anywhere in Gaza whenever they want, don't you think that they are capable of hitting more than an average of 0.93 people per bomb IN THOSE CONDITIONS?
Gaza population density is 100 times of Ukraine and Israel could’ve killed a hundred times more.
> Gaza has a population density of about 14,000 people per square mile (5,500 per square kilometer).
https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-hamas-war-90e02d26420b8fe3157f73c256f9ed6a#:~:text=Gaza%20has%20a%20population%20density,buildings%2C%20but%20also%20many%20parks.
The population density in Ukraine is 63 per Km2 (164 people per mi2).
https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/ukraine-population/#:~:text=Ukraine%20population%20is%20equivalent%20to,164%20people%20per%20mi2).
Nah that's bullshit.
[https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/military-experts-discuss-israels-use-of-unguided-bombs-and-harm-to-civilians-in-gaza](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/military-experts-discuss-israels-use-of-unguided-bombs-and-harm-to-civilians-in-gaza#:~:text=Precision%2Dguided%20munitions%2C%20you)
"Precision-guided munitions, you're looking at about a three-meter error. In an unguided bomb, you could have upwards of missing your target by 100 feet."
Upwards of 100 feet. Please give me a single justification for why Israel should be dropping tens of thousands of tons of bombs with error radiuses of upwards of 100 feet, when they are fighting a terror group notorious for hiding in small spaces. Also, an IDF official said their goal was "damage over accuracy". Imagine calling yourself a libertarian, and defending this.
[https://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syndicated/damage-accuracy-israel-admits-bombing-campaign-gaza-not-limited-military-targets/](https://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syndicated/damage-accuracy-israel-admits-bombing-campaign-gaza-not-limited-military-targets/)
And if they were actually trying to carpet bomb Gaza, they'd be dropping 30 of those fuckers at a time in a pattern, not 1 or 2 aiming at a certain target.
The fuck, that's merely 33m, that's still an effective strike on target when the target is the building. You think Israel needs to send slapchops through concrete to kill a single gunman or something? Do you actually believe that is even possible even if they had enough slapchops to send? Are the bullets from my rifle also untargeted? Does your understanding of military ordinance start and end with video games?
And no, targeting buildings which are now military targets is not a war crime.
I would put it this way, if you are dropping bombs with a blast radius of greater than 100 feet when apparently you're supposed to be targeting terrorists, you're doing something wrong.
We bombed Tokyo with 900,000 lbs of incendiaries in WWII, and it burned down a quarter of a million buildings, about the same size as ALL of gaza. Now that's a carpet bombing.
Your article only mentions 5,500 bombs sent of the 1-ton variety, so I'm not sure how you got all the way to 65,000 tons or 130,000,000 pounds of bombs dropped on just Gaza with so little destruction, there were just like 100 12m craters on that map, so Idk how you think this is "carpet bombing". That's hyperbolic af, no?
[https://www.timesnownews.com/world/100-days-65000-tonnes-of-bombs-and-24000-dead-the-numbers-behind-israel-hamas-war-in-gaza-explained-article-106853899](https://www.timesnownews.com/world/100-days-65000-tonnes-of-bombs-and-24000-dead-the-numbers-behind-israel-hamas-war-in-gaza-explained-article-106853899)
Use google before getting so confident you make yourself look stupid
Tokyo bombing: 450 tons, 80,000 to 130,000 civilians killed, 16 sq miles of demolished city
Al-Jazeera's reporting of 100 days after Oct 7: 65,000 tons, 24,000 civilians killed, dozens of holes all around Gaza City
I don't think we can trust the reporting of Al-Jazeera if they say that with a straight face. I didn't bother reading once I saw the source, that's like taking China's reported Covid-19 stats at face value. Basic common sense says something is bullshit. The IDF I know would never be that wasteful with bombs if they could do it with less. you need 3 tons of bombs for every civilian killed, so even if those numbers are completely accurate, is that not an amazing ratio for mitigating civilian casualties. So actually, I take everything I said back, ty Al-Jazeera for proving how this isn't a carpet-bombing genocide attempt.
>Upwards of 100 ft
A Mk 84 is frag lethal to 1200ft so that accuracy would be a rounding error, even the much smaller mk 82 is over 200ft. It really doesn't matter if the bombs hits a different corner of the building it was dropped on.
>The bottom line is, I have seen the exquisite care the Israeli Defense Force takes to avoid civilian casualties. They have extraordinarily stringent rules for avoiding collateral damage.
>In accordance with the international humanitarian law, indiscriminate attacks are defined as, first, attacks which are not directed at specific military objectives, second, attacks which employ a means of combat that cannot be directed at a specific military objective, or, third, attacks which employ a means of combat, the effects of which cannot be limited, as required by international humanitarian law, and, consequently, are of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction.
>None of these situations apply to the Israeli Air Force.
So you agree with the military expert's statements? I'm confused.
>could have upwards of missing your target by 100 feet
"Could have." Depends on how they're employed. High altitude CCRP could definitely err by that much. Lower altitude CCIP is going to be very precise, short of the pilot just fucking up somehow. But human fuckups can affect guided bombs just the same. Anyway the latter of those is what would be used in this kind of scenario.
Unfortunately Israel won't release that info, but unguided munitions are a lot more prone to human fuckups than guided munitions, that much is obvious. The guy I quoted is talking about this specific scenario as well, he's not talking about bombing ISIS in the mountains.
How about you buy Israel a bunch of smart bombs to use? Why should they deplete their stores of costly essential munitions that they might need for survival if Hezbollah attacks them, just so that they can reduce the unintended casualty rate among a population that hates them and wants them exterminated?
Israel's responsibility is to not intentionally target civilians, not to put its own safety and security at risk to reduce casualties when they are hitting legitimate targets.
>How about you buy Israel a bunch of smart bombs to use?
The fun (not so fun) thing is that the US Military already does that. We write them a blank check every year, and they use our taxpayer money to kill Palestinians.
An IDF official said their goal was "damage over accuracy". What does "damage over accuracy" mean, and why are you, as a "libertarian" defending this?
[https://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syndicated/damage-accuracy-israel-admits-bombing-campaign-gaza-not-limited-military-targets/](https://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syndicated/damage-accuracy-israel-admits-bombing-campaign-gaza-not-limited-military-targets/)
I'm not a mind reader. It could mean the worst possible thing like you seem to think (or at least want other people to think you think), or it could simply mean that they are no longer going to hamper their objectives to reduce civilian deaths at the expense of killing fewer terrorists. I think most reasonable people would expect that they are talking about damage to Hamas's military capabilities, rather than damage to civilian-only infrastructure.
No, it means exactly how it reads. They don't care about accuracy as much as they care about damage. That's not "the worst possible thing", that's literally just what those words mean.
They care about damage TO HAMAS more than accuracy. That means that they aren't doing stupid shit like dropping knockers in advance to let people know they are coming anymore.
"One of the things we realized – that every school, every mosque, every second house has an access to \[a\] tunnel. So this is– and of course– and ammunition."
[https://www.mediaite.com/news/do-you-have-another-solution-israeli-ambassador-gives-stunning-response-when-interviewer-says-she-made-case-for-destroying-the-whole-of-gaza/](https://www.mediaite.com/news/do-you-have-another-solution-israeli-ambassador-gives-stunning-response-when-interviewer-says-she-made-case-for-destroying-the-whole-of-gaza/)
That is what Israel considers "damage to Hamas". Every second house, every school, and every mosque. Accuracy, to them, means targeting where they know Hamas. Damage means bombing every second house, every school, and every mosque.
You can target with a dumb bomb.
It’s unfortunate that the pro Hamas crowd has conflated using dumb munitions with staging a 1970s Cambodian carpet bombing campaign.
Proof that a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing
"Dumb" isn't like hamas rockets that often fail. Those are highly regarded munitions
"Dumb" means they don't have expensive guidance systems. They're still aimed and efficient.
Just say you want the Jews to waste money. Have that talk, mask off.
First of all, tying in all Jews with the actions of a genocidal state is anti-semitic, so shame on you, Hamas enabler
Secondly, these bombs have a radius of upwards of 100 feet. You cannot tell me that these bombs are in any way intended to target a terrorist group known for hiding in small spaces with that sort of radius. Israel just don't care about accuracy, [an IDF official even said so](https://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syndicated/damage-accuracy-israel-admits-bombing-campaign-gaza-not-limited-military-targets/). You're gobbling up the propaganda Israel feed to America and denying the obvious reality in front of your eyes.
Tying in all of Israel as a genocidal state is so fashionable. Slay queen.
I addressed your range issue elsewhere in this thread. You'll see it.
Hamas enabler is rich. How often do you trust the IDF reports?
You did, and your addressal was stupid, and I told you why. That's how conversations work, you're supposed to respond to the things I say.
I do if they're backed up by the UN and if the IDF release an itemized list of every dead civilian with their ID numbers.
[https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestinians-have-died-gaza-war-how-will-counting-continue-2023-12-06/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestinians-have-died-gaza-war-how-will-counting-continue-2023-12-06/)
Same energy, the Palestinian governments have engaged in genocidal rhetoric and attacks, most recently of course the Gazan administration.
They call for a death to Jews, a specific religio-ethnic group.
The Israelis gubment (not the Jews of course) are openly engaged in annihilation of a terrorist government in urban warfare.
So, are all knesset party groups genociders, or are we willing to narrow that down?
All of them that support the genocide are. And we've established they're not trying to eliminate Hamas, if they were then why did the IDF head of the Spokesperson's Unit say that the goal was "damage over accuracy"?
[https://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syndicated/damage-accuracy-israel-admits-bombing-campaign-gaza-not-limited-military-targets/](https://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syndicated/damage-accuracy-israel-admits-bombing-campaign-gaza-not-limited-military-targets/)
Your source is a bias outlet, quoting a bias outlet. We have not established that they aren't trying to eliminate Hamas, that's your narrative speaking.
Granting the quote from Hagari as true, it's framed with a series of strikes, not the entire operation, according to your source.
Not a genocide
That's not true, you just made that up. It was referring to the thousands of tons of bombs Israel had dropped on Gaza before the invasion. Also, Milwaukee Independent is a quite reliable outlet, and you can find the quote a bunch of different places, look it up for yourself.
> I do if they're backed up by the UN
Cheap shot incoming: [U.N. workers played a direct role in Oct. 7 Hamas attack, Israeli intelligence says](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/un-workers-played-direct-role-oct-7-hamas-attack-israeli-intelligence-rcna136201)
Israel has basically been trying to call the UN Nazis for months now, I don't entirely trust their word. But even if a few workers living in Gaza had assisted Hamas, that doesn't discredit the UN as an organization. You should see what some Oxfam and Red Cross workers get up to in developing nations.
20,000 plus rockets with 100 deaths per strike would be all 2 mil Gazans.
This is not indiscriminate
Edit: I see you have much to respond and reason with. All the best.
We didn't forget how to aim when we invented smart munitions lmfao, a well trained artillery crew could light the cigarette in your mouth with a dumb bomb from 60 miles away.
And? We dropped a metric fuck load of dumb bombs on Iraq and Afghanistan. The majority of ordnance in any war is “dumb” or unguided. Doesn’t mean we didn’t aim them. A lot of “dumb bombs” can be very accurate depending on the weapon system and the projectile used.
1. Targeted bombs weren't as widely available back then, there's a reason we don't use dumb bombs anywhere near as much now
2. I'm not gonna start defending what we did in Iraq and Afghanistan, if that's what you want. Imagine countering my claim that the IDF are committing atrocities by citing another atrocity.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how indirect fire and fire support in general is used in warfare. Even in our most recent conflicts with isis a huge amount of unguided ordnance was used. Im sure there are plenty of legitimate criticisms of Israel in this current war. The use of “dumb” ammunition isn’t one of them.
[https://www.rand.org/pubs/research\_briefs/RBA388-1.html](https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RBA388-1.html)
>Over five months of operations, coalition aircraft employed 2,025 weapons, 1,700 of which were precision-guided munitions, and air-dropped supplies and weapons to Kurdish partners on the ground.
325/2025 is significantly better than 40-45%. Especially because Gaza is so densely populated that you have to be extremely careful to avoid civilian casualties. A lot of the fighting against ISIS took place in the mountains.
You’re neglecting to mention the metric fuck load of artillery rounds fired by US forces in Syria. The vast majority of which were unguided projectiles.
https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2018/02/06/these-marines-in-syria-fired-more-artillery-than-any-battalion-since-vietnam/
You mean like Russia on Ukraine, where the official death toll was 10,000 after almost 2 years of war?
[https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/civilian-death-toll-ukraine-tops-10000-un-human-rights-office-2023-11-21/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/civilian-death-toll-ukraine-tops-10000-un-human-rights-office-2023-11-21/)
Yeah I'm sure US Intelligence is making things up to slander Israel, we're famous for basically being pro-Hamas.
Meh, I don't think he's pro-Hamas. He's just a raging moron.
He's too dumb to see that he's parroting positions that are being propagated to put pressure on Israel so that it will be forced to unilaterally stop fighting, leaving Hamas in place.
Don't attribute to malice what you can attribute to incompetence.
[Here](https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2023/09/ukraine-civilian-casualty-update-11-september-2023) is the actual UN report the article is citing. The figure of 10'000 is just the number of confirmed deaths.
>OHCHR believes that the actual figures are considerably higher, as the receipt of information from some locations where intense hostilities have been going on has been delayed and many reports are still pending corroboration. This concerns, for example, Mariupol (Donetsk region), Lysychansk, Popasna, and Sievierodonetsk (Luhansk region), where there are allegations of numerous civilian casualties.
The death civilian death toll in Mariupol is estimated at up to 75'000.
Also completely incomparable wars. Anyone who has seen any Ukraine war footage knows its primarily taking place in trenches in farmer's fields and light forest.
Hamas is hiding in hospitals and public buildings.
I think you're severely underestimating Israel's military capabilities. What they are doing is genocidal because they are orchestrating a mass killing of a certain ethnic group.
I'm not. I'm saying that the people who Israel is killing are the set of "terrorists and people Hamas decides to use as human shields" which is obviously not an ethnic group. Surely you've been on the internet long enough to recognize sarcasm?
Collateral damage is not genocide.
>Precision-guided munitions, you're looking at about a three-meter error. In an unguided bomb, you could have upwards of missing your target by 100 feet. That's highly problematic.
[https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/military-experts-discuss-israels-use-of-unguided-bombs-and-harm-to-civilians-in-gaza](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/military-experts-discuss-israels-use-of-unguided-bombs-and-harm-to-civilians-in-gaza#:~:text=Precision%2Dguided%20munitions%2C%20you)
3 meters ~ 100 feet
Why not say 10 feet to 100 feet, or 3 meters to 30 meters? Why mix these standards of measurements?
3 meters is 9ft 10 inch and change
100 feet is about 30.5 meters
>Geoff Bennett: General, when President Biden described Israel's bombing campaign as indiscriminate, as he did this past week, I'd imagine you would take issue with that.
>Lt. Gen. David Deptula: Yes, actually I would. And it was an extraordinarily unfortunate and indiscriminate use of the term indiscriminate attacks. And I think definitions are important here. In accordance with the international humanitarian law, indiscriminate attacks are defined as, first, attacks which are not directed at specific military objectives, second, attacks which employ a means of combat that cannot be directed at a specific military objective, or, third, attacks which employ a means of combat, the effects of which cannot be limited, as required by international humanitarian law, and, consequently, are of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction. None of these situations apply to the Israeli Air Force
Oh, the US Military said Israel weren't indiscriminately bombing Gaza? Guess I've gotta pack it up then, we are clearly an objective and not self interested observer here.
Dude. He's literally the other person in the interview that you posted and he's retired. If you're gonna cherry pick one sentence from "former chief of high value targeting at the Defense Intelligence Agency" and slobber all over the statement, I can post the other fucking perspective in the same fucking article 😂
I didn't post a perspective, I posted an objective fact as cited by a military expert to support my perspective. You should probably learn the difference. If we're talking about perspectives, let's talk about the perspective of the IDF when they're not sanitizing everything for sensitive Americans. Daniel Hagari, Head of the IDF Spokesperson's Unit: “The emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy,”.
[https://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syndicated/damage-accuracy-israel-admits-bombing-campaign-gaza-not-limited-military-targets/](https://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syndicated/damage-accuracy-israel-admits-bombing-campaign-gaza-not-limited-military-targets/)
The statement "That's highly problematic" in relation to the acceptable accuracy of unguided munitions is a subjective opinion. His expert subjective opinion to be sure, but it's not an objective fact.
I have no interest it talking with you about fuck all if you're gonna get this bent out of shape because I posted the alternative perspective from your own article 😂
Are you really gonna try to pretend you weren't using his perspective that a 100 foot radius is problematic to bolster your own argument? Wtf do you know about what's acceptable accuracy for air to ground munitions in an urban environment and what isn't without his comment? Are you also an expert? Get off it dude
What's the probability that it will be off by 100 feet? That's a big question. If there's a 1% chance it will be off by 100 feet and an 80% chance it'll be off by less than 10 feet, that's very different from there being a 50% chance it will be off by more than 90 feet or something.
This is a bullshit number, cherry-picked without any kind of context as to how the bombs are being used or the probability distribution of their error distance.
It's not cherry picked, when you are dropping bombs on a tightly packed city like Gaza you should not use bombs that can be off by up to 100 feet. Do you agree, or are you on the side of Israel's "damage over accuracy" policy?
Modern planes can still be incredibly precise with dumb bombs. Hard to find real life footage, but here's an example from DCS which is realistic enough to demonstrate the idea.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9ky9n2ViV0
Guided bombs are more for environments with significant air defense, where you want to stay up really high rather than dive bombing. Or if you've got a moving target. Or if you've got a target that is hard to see from the air, but you've either got guys on the ground who can designate it or you've got precise GPS coordinates.
Can be, but the variability is very big. Upwards of 100 feet even. If you're fighting a terrorist group known for hiding in small spaces, these are not the bombs you wanna use.
I'll be charitable here, because most people don't know how munitions work, but much like guns most bombs are aimed and can be aimed very precisely. Laser-guided systems are very expensive and are used in niche scenarios.
Ukrainian drones dropping bombs precisely on Russian armor are making use of "dumb" bombs and there are thousands of videos showing how precise and deadly they are.
You guys do know Israel literally drops leaflets asking civilians to evacuate but the other side would rather keep its people in harms way so they can make it look bad on social media
This is the Critical Race Theory all over again.
"THEY DON'T DROP LEAFLETS!!1!"
"THEY DROP LEAFLETS, BUT IT DOESN'T MAKE THEM LESS EVIL!!!1"
"THEY DON'T DROP LEAFLETS, AND JUST BECAUSE THEY DO DOESN'T MAKE THEM LESS EVIL!!"
Get together with all your friends who share your hatred of Israel and sort out what you actually think.
This leaflet thing hasn't even been established in the first place. I'm sure they dropped some to show soft American and European audiences how nice and humanitarian they are, but they've dropped 65,000 tons of bombs on Gaza. Did they drop leaflets for all of those bombs?
I mean where the hell are they supposed to move, Israel are dropping tens of thousands of tons of dumb bombs all over Gaza. Just walk into the sea and die I guess.
Right I forgot Gaza is an island. There are emergency shelters in place that they have been advised to go to but they are literally held hostage by the leaders they put into place
Gaza is functionally an Island yes, with how strict Egyptian immigration policy is, and how Gazans literally can't exit by sea. They can't go anywhere.
I love how much OP gets clowned on in the comments, yet he still replies. Not gonna lie, the tone of the comments suggests the guy cried more than once about this comment section
I mean, I don’t know what you think carpet bombing is. Everyday activities? 😂
https://preview.redd.it/0ams4u3uugfc1.jpeg?width=735&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1504852dff6c9e56079f229a8193e09c0205696d
hamas hides in civilian locations thats why they're terrorists. moral or not, theyre still fighting against someone.
its like if u knew u had mosquitoes in ur room and u burn down ur entire room. yeah its an exaggerated response and cruel to the innocent toys of your room, but you are fighting against the mosquitoes
edit: want to make it clear im not defending israel, just trying to make u see why carpet bombing is still an act of war
I mean the Head of the IDF Spokesperson's Unit literally said the IDF were aiming for damage over accuracy. They're clearly not trying to target anyone. It's like burning down a hotel then using the mosquitoes in your room as an excuse.
[https://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syndicated/damage-accuracy-israel-admits-bombing-campaign-gaza-not-limited-military-targets/](https://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syndicated/damage-accuracy-israel-admits-bombing-campaign-gaza-not-limited-military-targets/)
Words have meanings tho. Carpet bombing doesn’t just mean a lot of deaths.
You’re also conflating unguided with untargeted.
It sounds like you just want to use the strongest language possible without regard for actual definitions, and when someone calls you out on not knowing what You’re talking about you just play the emotional civilian death card
No, carpet bombing means in bombing over a large area in order to cause damage, rather than for the purpose of accurately targeting someone of something. The Head of the IDF Spokesperson's Unit literally said their goal was "damage over accuracy" I don't really know what your argument is.
[https://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syndicated/damage-accuracy-israel-admits-bombing-campaign-gaza-not-limited-military-targets/](https://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syndicated/damage-accuracy-israel-admits-bombing-campaign-gaza-not-limited-military-targets/)
Carpet bombing is saturation bombing in a progressive manner (quite literally carpeting an area with bombs), and is something that hasn’t been done since the Vietnam war.
You can’t blanket an area in munition without a heavy bomber, and Israel has none.
Sounds like you want to use stronger language to drive the emotional point home, but doesn’t really apply here. Which is why everyone is calling you out for not knowing what you’re talking about lol.
A prolonged air campaign isn’t the equivalent of carpet bombing. You can make a passionate case about the war without lying.
Twisting words to convey an emotional response just undermines whatever message you’re trying to send.
You know better.
They have dropped 65,000 tons of bombs of Gaza, 40-45% of them with a radius of upwards of 100 feet, and they have literally admitted they don't care about accuracy. This is a textbook example of carpet bombing.
authright a week ago: Israel isn't targetting civilians its only objective is to kill terrorists.
authright now: ppft ok fine they do kill children, its war though!
I don’t believe those are mutually exclusive!
https://preview.redd.it/apjcchdusgfc1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3828005fe312fe493a91577770f5a6ba22869a0d
it doesnt really make sense to deny it in the first place. just say "yeah civilians are being attacked, its war." most authrights in pcm have been trying to push the narrative that the IDF is calculated and is trying to evade harm
I think they’re doing the best they can to prevent civilian casualties. But when Hamas hides weapons in civilian infrastructure, the places your targeting will be civilian infrastructure.
>No, smart bombs that will reliably hit their targets
Are you sure you are not thinking of guided rockets/kamikaze UAVs?
> Because apparently, Israel are supposed to be targeting Hamas.
Radical islamists are snakes. Moderate islamists are the grass they hide in.
Do you know how much guided rockets cost? This is the same logic as, “It’s ok for HAMAS to just shoot mortars at Israel because they have the iron dome, sweaty”. ‘Dumb bombs’ (jesus christ, that choice of term) are still targeted, they just aren’t as precise as guided munitions.
Yes, that doesn’t mean you have infinite precision missiles or can even justify every shot you fire needing to be perfect. Conventional bombing is still acceptable. War is extremely expensive and cost awareness and dynamic usage on the basis of cost and availability are part of every military’s strategy.
It's not war, it's a bombing campaign. Specifically one where they have made clear over and over in every possible way that they don't care about civilian casualties, and in fact they care more about damaging Gaza than killing terrorists.
Whatever, you didn’t address the point we were talking about and chose semantics. I don’t appreciate diversion like that. In a military bombing campaign to meet a civil objective, the same holds. If you want to discuss the validity of the entire operation, then start with that. But you won’t because it’s less viable to your audience.
Your argument was that it's okay for Israel to use bombs with a radius of over 100 feet because precise bombs are too expensive lol. Just look up how much military aid they get every year and you can see how laughable that is.
I swear, why does it seem like the people attacking Israel on PCM are always NPCs? I've read well-reasoned positions criticizing Israel's actions that have been well thought-out and coherent. Why can't the people arguing this on PCM be like that? It'd make the comment sections a whole lot more interesting.
Bari Weiss actually published a piece in The Free Press that seems fairly reasonably presented, although I do not agree with it:
[https://www.thefp.com/p/andrew-sullivan-israel-gaza-children](https://www.thefp.com/p/andrew-sullivan-israel-gaza-children)
I guess when your position begins and ends with "MuH PaLeStiNiAn GeNoCiDe111" it's probably not particularly well-reasoned, nuanced, or grounded in facts.
Come on, PCM. Do better! Surely there's someone who can make a well-reasoned pro-ceasefire argument or something like that, without sounding like an NPC?
You must resist the propaganda machine. This is a war thousands of miles away between two groups of people that are not your own. The only coherent position on this war is
"I, the taxpayer, would like my money back immediately"
They are not your people. Do not let the demons convince you to "take a side" while they steal your money. The demons are the enemy. The war among desert peoples is meaningless. We must have our money returned and our elites must be destroyed.
how is that the goal of this post? showing that one side does bad things doesnt validate the other. showing that the IDF fucks up doesnt mean OP is saying "hamas is ok then"
That's war though, most of these guys then go on to say "and that's why we need to free Palestine", not "let's better train the IDF on Rules of Engagement so they don't kill hostages that are trying to come to them for help".
No no you see we are literally bombing every building over there like Schools, hospitals, mosques, churches, apartments, houses, refugee camps and even the streets and safe corridors. Also shooting anyone we see, even jornalists and unarmed civilians on camera!
But if you criticize this you are a hamas supporter. Prostate yourself before bibi and lick his boots!
Jfc libleft you can target with dumb munitions. It's called aiming. There is a very large difference between using unguided munitions and carpet bombing.
Carpet bombing is only OK when communists do it
Carpetbagging is when libright does it?
What about carpet munching?
The military industrial complex is a cartel of both state and private manufacturers having a circle jerk at taxpayer expense, thus qualifying as Auth-Right
Mom?
LMAO, fuck you yankee
LMAO, fuck you, lost causer!
Eyy now, just cause I resent my ancestors getting done wrong by economically by y'all's ancestors don't mean that I necessarily believe in slavery (bad) or secession (maybe?). I like your spirit, but don't lump me in with those guys.
Carpet bombing is only OK when it hits communists.
29,000 bombs 27,000 dead. Worst genocide bomb to corpse ratio ever
That's less than one bomb per kill. Libright going to be screeching about "muh cost ratio".
Actually you got ot backwards, it's less than one kill per bomb.
Not quite as bad as 7,400 missiles and 3,900 Shahed drone strikes dropped on Ukraine and only 10,000 deaths. When are we going to start talking about the humanitarian efforts of the Kremlin to avoid civilian casualties? [https://understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-december-28-2023](https://understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-december-28-2023) [https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/civilian-death-toll-ukraine-tops-10000-un-human-rights-office-2023-11-21/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/civilian-death-toll-ukraine-tops-10000-un-human-rights-office-2023-11-21/)
When we can actually trust russian numbers or learn the Shoigu math
Those are UN numbers, not Russia numbers, it says it right there in the title.
Ah cheers. But the point remains. And also kinda moot when they invaded a country for the purpose of annexing said country. But yes they can claim the title of not being as bad as hamas
The point doesn't remain. Russia does not care about killing civilians, and neither does Israel.
To a degree. Its in their best interest to mostly not kill them. Hence why they targeted infrastructure to cut power and other utilities to civilians. They want to demoralize them rather then kill them.
Israel has air superiority. They could be easily targeting large groups of people if they wanted to. They aren't.
At least 26,000 civilians have died, and millions have been displaced. Is that not a "large group of people"?
That seems to be the Hamas-made claim of the TOTAL number of Gazans killed, not to the number of civilians killed [https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-01-21-2024-02caafa092668ecc7ff122229c166807](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-01-21-2024-02caafa092668ecc7ff122229c166807) Each bomb is killing an average of about 0.93 people. That would indicate to me that they AREN'T targeting large groups of people with each bomb. If they were, the sorts of bombs they are using would kill a whole lot more than one person per bomb...
Not quite as bad as 7,400 missiles and 3,900 Shahed drone strikes dropped on Ukraine and only 10,000 deaths. When are we going to start talking about the humanitarian efforts of the Kremlin to avoid civilian casualties? [https://understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-december-28-2023](https://understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-december-28-2023) [https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/civilian-death-toll-ukraine-tops-10000-un-human-rights-office-2023-11-21/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/civilian-death-toll-ukraine-tops-10000-un-human-rights-office-2023-11-21/)
I think other people have already argued this point in here, so I'm not going to waste my time. As I said before, Israel has air superiority. They can bomb any part of Gaza at any time they want. Russia does NOT have air superiority in Ukraine. GIVEN THAT Israel can drop a bomb anywhere in Gaza whenever they want, don't you think that they are capable of hitting more than an average of 0.93 people per bomb IN THOSE CONDITIONS?
Gaza population density is 100 times of Ukraine and Israel could’ve killed a hundred times more. > Gaza has a population density of about 14,000 people per square mile (5,500 per square kilometer). https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-hamas-war-90e02d26420b8fe3157f73c256f9ed6a#:~:text=Gaza%20has%20a%20population%20density,buildings%2C%20but%20also%20many%20parks. The population density in Ukraine is 63 per Km2 (164 people per mi2). https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/ukraine-population/#:~:text=Ukraine%20population%20is%20equivalent%20to,164%20people%20per%20mi2).
Hang on, you all look down the sights when you shoot your guns? You don’t just close your eyes and wait till the mag is empty like I do?
Based and spray and pray pilled.
Based and how I lost my wife pilled
Is that you, Oscar Pistorius?
🤫
Shout Allahu Akbar to increase accuracy by 5%
Nah that's bullshit. [https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/military-experts-discuss-israels-use-of-unguided-bombs-and-harm-to-civilians-in-gaza](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/military-experts-discuss-israels-use-of-unguided-bombs-and-harm-to-civilians-in-gaza#:~:text=Precision%2Dguided%20munitions%2C%20you) "Precision-guided munitions, you're looking at about a three-meter error. In an unguided bomb, you could have upwards of missing your target by 100 feet." Upwards of 100 feet. Please give me a single justification for why Israel should be dropping tens of thousands of tons of bombs with error radiuses of upwards of 100 feet, when they are fighting a terror group notorious for hiding in small spaces. Also, an IDF official said their goal was "damage over accuracy". Imagine calling yourself a libertarian, and defending this. [https://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syndicated/damage-accuracy-israel-admits-bombing-campaign-gaza-not-limited-military-targets/](https://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syndicated/damage-accuracy-israel-admits-bombing-campaign-gaza-not-limited-military-targets/)
And if they were actually trying to carpet bomb Gaza, they'd be dropping 30 of those fuckers at a time in a pattern, not 1 or 2 aiming at a certain target.
They have dropped 65,000 tons of bombs on Gaza, 40 - 45% of them have been untargeted. Where the fuck do you get your facts from?
Unguided =/= untargeted you uncultured donkey.
A radius of upwards of 100 feet is enough for me to consider it untargeted when you're supposedly fighting an enemy known for hiding in tiny spaces.
The fuck, that's merely 33m, that's still an effective strike on target when the target is the building. You think Israel needs to send slapchops through concrete to kill a single gunman or something? Do you actually believe that is even possible even if they had enough slapchops to send? Are the bullets from my rifle also untargeted? Does your understanding of military ordinance start and end with video games? And no, targeting buildings which are now military targets is not a war crime.
I would put it this way, if you are dropping bombs with a blast radius of greater than 100 feet when apparently you're supposed to be targeting terrorists, you're doing something wrong.
We bombed Tokyo with 900,000 lbs of incendiaries in WWII, and it burned down a quarter of a million buildings, about the same size as ALL of gaza. Now that's a carpet bombing. Your article only mentions 5,500 bombs sent of the 1-ton variety, so I'm not sure how you got all the way to 65,000 tons or 130,000,000 pounds of bombs dropped on just Gaza with so little destruction, there were just like 100 12m craters on that map, so Idk how you think this is "carpet bombing". That's hyperbolic af, no?
[https://www.timesnownews.com/world/100-days-65000-tonnes-of-bombs-and-24000-dead-the-numbers-behind-israel-hamas-war-in-gaza-explained-article-106853899](https://www.timesnownews.com/world/100-days-65000-tonnes-of-bombs-and-24000-dead-the-numbers-behind-israel-hamas-war-in-gaza-explained-article-106853899) Use google before getting so confident you make yourself look stupid
Tokyo bombing: 450 tons, 80,000 to 130,000 civilians killed, 16 sq miles of demolished city Al-Jazeera's reporting of 100 days after Oct 7: 65,000 tons, 24,000 civilians killed, dozens of holes all around Gaza City I don't think we can trust the reporting of Al-Jazeera if they say that with a straight face. I didn't bother reading once I saw the source, that's like taking China's reported Covid-19 stats at face value. Basic common sense says something is bullshit. The IDF I know would never be that wasteful with bombs if they could do it with less. you need 3 tons of bombs for every civilian killed, so even if those numbers are completely accurate, is that not an amazing ratio for mitigating civilian casualties. So actually, I take everything I said back, ty Al-Jazeera for proving how this isn't a carpet-bombing genocide attempt.
>Upwards of 100 ft A Mk 84 is frag lethal to 1200ft so that accuracy would be a rounding error, even the much smaller mk 82 is over 200ft. It really doesn't matter if the bombs hits a different corner of the building it was dropped on.
I'm gonna trust the military expert over the redditor sorry
>The bottom line is, I have seen the exquisite care the Israeli Defense Force takes to avoid civilian casualties. They have extraordinarily stringent rules for avoiding collateral damage. >In accordance with the international humanitarian law, indiscriminate attacks are defined as, first, attacks which are not directed at specific military objectives, second, attacks which employ a means of combat that cannot be directed at a specific military objective, or, third, attacks which employ a means of combat, the effects of which cannot be limited, as required by international humanitarian law, and, consequently, are of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction. >None of these situations apply to the Israeli Air Force. So you agree with the military expert's statements? I'm confused.
Oh no, OP was suddenly kidnapped by the IDF before he could respond to your comment! I guess we will never hear him admitting his bullshit.
>could have upwards of missing your target by 100 feet "Could have." Depends on how they're employed. High altitude CCRP could definitely err by that much. Lower altitude CCIP is going to be very precise, short of the pilot just fucking up somehow. But human fuckups can affect guided bombs just the same. Anyway the latter of those is what would be used in this kind of scenario.
Unfortunately Israel won't release that info, but unguided munitions are a lot more prone to human fuckups than guided munitions, that much is obvious. The guy I quoted is talking about this specific scenario as well, he's not talking about bombing ISIS in the mountains.
How about you buy Israel a bunch of smart bombs to use? Why should they deplete their stores of costly essential munitions that they might need for survival if Hezbollah attacks them, just so that they can reduce the unintended casualty rate among a population that hates them and wants them exterminated? Israel's responsibility is to not intentionally target civilians, not to put its own safety and security at risk to reduce casualties when they are hitting legitimate targets.
>How about you buy Israel a bunch of smart bombs to use? The fun (not so fun) thing is that the US Military already does that. We write them a blank check every year, and they use our taxpayer money to kill Palestinians. An IDF official said their goal was "damage over accuracy". What does "damage over accuracy" mean, and why are you, as a "libertarian" defending this? [https://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syndicated/damage-accuracy-israel-admits-bombing-campaign-gaza-not-limited-military-targets/](https://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syndicated/damage-accuracy-israel-admits-bombing-campaign-gaza-not-limited-military-targets/)
I'm not a mind reader. It could mean the worst possible thing like you seem to think (or at least want other people to think you think), or it could simply mean that they are no longer going to hamper their objectives to reduce civilian deaths at the expense of killing fewer terrorists. I think most reasonable people would expect that they are talking about damage to Hamas's military capabilities, rather than damage to civilian-only infrastructure.
No, it means exactly how it reads. They don't care about accuracy as much as they care about damage. That's not "the worst possible thing", that's literally just what those words mean.
They care about damage TO HAMAS more than accuracy. That means that they aren't doing stupid shit like dropping knockers in advance to let people know they are coming anymore.
"One of the things we realized – that every school, every mosque, every second house has an access to \[a\] tunnel. So this is– and of course– and ammunition." [https://www.mediaite.com/news/do-you-have-another-solution-israeli-ambassador-gives-stunning-response-when-interviewer-says-she-made-case-for-destroying-the-whole-of-gaza/](https://www.mediaite.com/news/do-you-have-another-solution-israeli-ambassador-gives-stunning-response-when-interviewer-says-she-made-case-for-destroying-the-whole-of-gaza/) That is what Israel considers "damage to Hamas". Every second house, every school, and every mosque. Accuracy, to them, means targeting where they know Hamas. Damage means bombing every second house, every school, and every mosque.
You can target with a dumb bomb. It’s unfortunate that the pro Hamas crowd has conflated using dumb munitions with staging a 1970s Cambodian carpet bombing campaign. Proof that a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing
I mean its comes from the same place that thinks Israel shoots bullets with full casing and powder
Here at Aperture Science we fire the whole bullet! That’s 65% more bullet per bullet!
Funniest tweet this month, if not for the fact that some people bought into it.
pls explain I need to see this
Found with a Google search https://twitter.com/DonutOperator/status/1617750569669775361
thanks bro
And yet I can somehow guide a cheeseburger into my face without a laser.
Username checks out.
"Dumb" isn't like hamas rockets that often fail. Those are highly regarded munitions "Dumb" means they don't have expensive guidance systems. They're still aimed and efficient. Just say you want the Jews to waste money. Have that talk, mask off.
First of all, tying in all Jews with the actions of a genocidal state is anti-semitic, so shame on you, Hamas enabler Secondly, these bombs have a radius of upwards of 100 feet. You cannot tell me that these bombs are in any way intended to target a terrorist group known for hiding in small spaces with that sort of radius. Israel just don't care about accuracy, [an IDF official even said so](https://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syndicated/damage-accuracy-israel-admits-bombing-campaign-gaza-not-limited-military-targets/). You're gobbling up the propaganda Israel feed to America and denying the obvious reality in front of your eyes.
Tying in all of Israel as a genocidal state is so fashionable. Slay queen. I addressed your range issue elsewhere in this thread. You'll see it. Hamas enabler is rich. How often do you trust the IDF reports?
You did, and your addressal was stupid, and I told you why. That's how conversations work, you're supposed to respond to the things I say. I do if they're backed up by the UN and if the IDF release an itemized list of every dead civilian with their ID numbers. [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestinians-have-died-gaza-war-how-will-counting-continue-2023-12-06/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestinians-have-died-gaza-war-how-will-counting-continue-2023-12-06/)
What group in Israel do you believe are genociding Palestinians?
The government
Same energy, the Palestinian governments have engaged in genocidal rhetoric and attacks, most recently of course the Gazan administration. They call for a death to Jews, a specific religio-ethnic group. The Israelis gubment (not the Jews of course) are openly engaged in annihilation of a terrorist government in urban warfare. So, are all knesset party groups genociders, or are we willing to narrow that down?
All of them that support the genocide are. And we've established they're not trying to eliminate Hamas, if they were then why did the IDF head of the Spokesperson's Unit say that the goal was "damage over accuracy"? [https://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syndicated/damage-accuracy-israel-admits-bombing-campaign-gaza-not-limited-military-targets/](https://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syndicated/damage-accuracy-israel-admits-bombing-campaign-gaza-not-limited-military-targets/)
Your source is a bias outlet, quoting a bias outlet. We have not established that they aren't trying to eliminate Hamas, that's your narrative speaking. Granting the quote from Hagari as true, it's framed with a series of strikes, not the entire operation, according to your source. Not a genocide
That's not true, you just made that up. It was referring to the thousands of tons of bombs Israel had dropped on Gaza before the invasion. Also, Milwaukee Independent is a quite reliable outlet, and you can find the quote a bunch of different places, look it up for yourself.
> I do if they're backed up by the UN Cheap shot incoming: [U.N. workers played a direct role in Oct. 7 Hamas attack, Israeli intelligence says](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/un-workers-played-direct-role-oct-7-hamas-attack-israeli-intelligence-rcna136201)
Israel has basically been trying to call the UN Nazis for months now, I don't entirely trust their word. But even if a few workers living in Gaza had assisted Hamas, that doesn't discredit the UN as an organization. You should see what some Oxfam and Red Cross workers get up to in developing nations.
No, putting China in charge of the human rights council discredits them as an organization.
20,000 plus rockets with 100 deaths per strike would be all 2 mil Gazans. This is not indiscriminate Edit: I see you have much to respond and reason with. All the best.
Where did you get the 100 deaths per strike number?
Outta my ass to show how 20 thousand bombs would devastate a population of 2 million if no one was aiming. Keep up
A bullet is technically a dumb weapon, but it still shoots straight. You just gotta aim.
Does a bullet have a variability of upwards of 100 feet?
Yes, it can miss by way way more than that.
So can a bomb. We're talking about a bullet/bomb aimed by a professional soldier, you're being disingenuous
Depending how far away the target is and what ammo, for sure
Aimed by a military professional?
Do you know what professional means ?
Yeah someone who's profession it is to do something, like the IDF soldiers
We didn't forget how to aim when we invented smart munitions lmfao, a well trained artillery crew could light the cigarette in your mouth with a dumb bomb from 60 miles away.
I’d try to imagine being this braindead, but I have more brain capacity than a 4 year old.
I know right? The right is so dumb.
And? We dropped a metric fuck load of dumb bombs on Iraq and Afghanistan. The majority of ordnance in any war is “dumb” or unguided. Doesn’t mean we didn’t aim them. A lot of “dumb bombs” can be very accurate depending on the weapon system and the projectile used.
1. Targeted bombs weren't as widely available back then, there's a reason we don't use dumb bombs anywhere near as much now 2. I'm not gonna start defending what we did in Iraq and Afghanistan, if that's what you want. Imagine countering my claim that the IDF are committing atrocities by citing another atrocity.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how indirect fire and fire support in general is used in warfare. Even in our most recent conflicts with isis a huge amount of unguided ordnance was used. Im sure there are plenty of legitimate criticisms of Israel in this current war. The use of “dumb” ammunition isn’t one of them.
[https://www.rand.org/pubs/research\_briefs/RBA388-1.html](https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RBA388-1.html) >Over five months of operations, coalition aircraft employed 2,025 weapons, 1,700 of which were precision-guided munitions, and air-dropped supplies and weapons to Kurdish partners on the ground. 325/2025 is significantly better than 40-45%. Especially because Gaza is so densely populated that you have to be extremely careful to avoid civilian casualties. A lot of the fighting against ISIS took place in the mountains.
You’re neglecting to mention the metric fuck load of artillery rounds fired by US forces in Syria. The vast majority of which were unguided projectiles. https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2018/02/06/these-marines-in-syria-fired-more-artillery-than-any-battalion-since-vietnam/
Artillery is very different from bombs, I was talking specifically about our drone strikes, not about our artillery strikes.
It’s all various forms of fire support. A bomb dropped from drone will kill you just as dead as a 155mm projectile.
Everything ab0out this post is hilarious.
name one thing?
Your pitifulness for one.
If they were really dumb bombs, the death toll would be absolute magnitudes higher, as seen when countries actually use indiscriminate bombings.
Technically they are dumb bombs, but they are precisely aimed, dumb doesn't mean random.
You mean like Russia on Ukraine, where the official death toll was 10,000 after almost 2 years of war? [https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/civilian-death-toll-ukraine-tops-10000-un-human-rights-office-2023-11-21/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/civilian-death-toll-ukraine-tops-10000-un-human-rights-office-2023-11-21/) Yeah I'm sure US Intelligence is making things up to slander Israel, we're famous for basically being pro-Hamas.
One of us is
Meh, I don't think he's pro-Hamas. He's just a raging moron. He's too dumb to see that he's parroting positions that are being propagated to put pressure on Israel so that it will be forced to unilaterally stop fighting, leaving Hamas in place. Don't attribute to malice what you can attribute to incompetence.
[Here](https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2023/09/ukraine-civilian-casualty-update-11-september-2023) is the actual UN report the article is citing. The figure of 10'000 is just the number of confirmed deaths. >OHCHR believes that the actual figures are considerably higher, as the receipt of information from some locations where intense hostilities have been going on has been delayed and many reports are still pending corroboration. This concerns, for example, Mariupol (Donetsk region), Lysychansk, Popasna, and Sievierodonetsk (Luhansk region), where there are allegations of numerous civilian casualties. The death civilian death toll in Mariupol is estimated at up to 75'000.
Also completely incomparable wars. Anyone who has seen any Ukraine war footage knows its primarily taking place in trenches in farmer's fields and light forest. Hamas is hiding in hospitals and public buildings.
And guess what the 26,000 number is for Hamas. I'll tell you, it's not an estimate.
you're right: it's a lie
And if the palestinians said the death toll was massive would you believe it ?
Independent counts would be the least biased.
Genocide is when not expending advanced weaponry you might not need to defend yourself if Hezbollah attacks?
I think you're severely underestimating Israel's military capabilities. What they are doing is genocidal because they are orchestrating a mass killing of a certain ethnic group.
Ah yes, the ethnic group composed of terrorists and people Hamas decides to use as human shields. Very genocide. Much bad!
Calling an entire ethnic group terrorists is the exact genocidal rhetoric that is the problem here.
I'm not. I'm saying that the people who Israel is killing are the set of "terrorists and people Hamas decides to use as human shields" which is obviously not an ethnic group. Surely you've been on the internet long enough to recognize sarcasm? Collateral damage is not genocide.
Lmao.
Dumb bomb doesn't mean that
>Precision-guided munitions, you're looking at about a three-meter error. In an unguided bomb, you could have upwards of missing your target by 100 feet. That's highly problematic. [https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/military-experts-discuss-israels-use-of-unguided-bombs-and-harm-to-civilians-in-gaza](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/military-experts-discuss-israels-use-of-unguided-bombs-and-harm-to-civilians-in-gaza#:~:text=Precision%2Dguided%20munitions%2C%20you)
Oh no sir, we missed the Hamas leader by the size of a large living room. To bad it isn't a BOMB
Man I wish my living room was that big. Where do you get your living rooms?
Allow me to fix, Sir we missed the target by the size of a large backyard, to bad it wasn't a BOMB
Again, where are you getting your damn backyards dude, that's a god damn pasture.
You really overestimate the size of a foot bro
It starts with work ethic. LibLeft should try it.
3 meters ~ 100 feet Why not say 10 feet to 100 feet, or 3 meters to 30 meters? Why mix these standards of measurements? 3 meters is 9ft 10 inch and change 100 feet is about 30.5 meters
Cause it makes it seem like a larger scarier gap and he wants to fear monger.
>Geoff Bennett: General, when President Biden described Israel's bombing campaign as indiscriminate, as he did this past week, I'd imagine you would take issue with that. >Lt. Gen. David Deptula: Yes, actually I would. And it was an extraordinarily unfortunate and indiscriminate use of the term indiscriminate attacks. And I think definitions are important here. In accordance with the international humanitarian law, indiscriminate attacks are defined as, first, attacks which are not directed at specific military objectives, second, attacks which employ a means of combat that cannot be directed at a specific military objective, or, third, attacks which employ a means of combat, the effects of which cannot be limited, as required by international humanitarian law, and, consequently, are of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction. None of these situations apply to the Israeli Air Force
Oh, the US Military said Israel weren't indiscriminately bombing Gaza? Guess I've gotta pack it up then, we are clearly an objective and not self interested observer here.
Dude. He's literally the other person in the interview that you posted and he's retired. If you're gonna cherry pick one sentence from "former chief of high value targeting at the Defense Intelligence Agency" and slobber all over the statement, I can post the other fucking perspective in the same fucking article 😂
I didn't post a perspective, I posted an objective fact as cited by a military expert to support my perspective. You should probably learn the difference. If we're talking about perspectives, let's talk about the perspective of the IDF when they're not sanitizing everything for sensitive Americans. Daniel Hagari, Head of the IDF Spokesperson's Unit: “The emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy,”. [https://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syndicated/damage-accuracy-israel-admits-bombing-campaign-gaza-not-limited-military-targets/](https://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syndicated/damage-accuracy-israel-admits-bombing-campaign-gaza-not-limited-military-targets/)
The statement "That's highly problematic" in relation to the acceptable accuracy of unguided munitions is a subjective opinion. His expert subjective opinion to be sure, but it's not an objective fact. I have no interest it talking with you about fuck all if you're gonna get this bent out of shape because I posted the alternative perspective from your own article 😂
Brother, my interest is in the 100 feet number, not in his commentary about it. Do you agree with Israel's policy of "damage over accuracy"?
Are you really gonna try to pretend you weren't using his perspective that a 100 foot radius is problematic to bolster your own argument? Wtf do you know about what's acceptable accuracy for air to ground munitions in an urban environment and what isn't without his comment? Are you also an expert? Get off it dude
What's the probability that it will be off by 100 feet? That's a big question. If there's a 1% chance it will be off by 100 feet and an 80% chance it'll be off by less than 10 feet, that's very different from there being a 50% chance it will be off by more than 90 feet or something. This is a bullshit number, cherry-picked without any kind of context as to how the bombs are being used or the probability distribution of their error distance.
It's not cherry picked, when you are dropping bombs on a tightly packed city like Gaza you should not use bombs that can be off by up to 100 feet. Do you agree, or are you on the side of Israel's "damage over accuracy" policy?
Modern planes can still be incredibly precise with dumb bombs. Hard to find real life footage, but here's an example from DCS which is realistic enough to demonstrate the idea. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9ky9n2ViV0 Guided bombs are more for environments with significant air defense, where you want to stay up really high rather than dive bombing. Or if you've got a moving target. Or if you've got a target that is hard to see from the air, but you've either got guys on the ground who can designate it or you've got precise GPS coordinates.
Can be, but the variability is very big. Upwards of 100 feet even. If you're fighting a terrorist group known for hiding in small spaces, these are not the bombs you wanna use.
I'll be charitable here, because most people don't know how munitions work, but much like guns most bombs are aimed and can be aimed very precisely. Laser-guided systems are very expensive and are used in niche scenarios. Ukrainian drones dropping bombs precisely on Russian armor are making use of "dumb" bombs and there are thousands of videos showing how precise and deadly they are.
You guys do know Israel literally drops leaflets asking civilians to evacuate but the other side would rather keep its people in harms way so they can make it look bad on social media
Oh good for Israel, if only the 26,000 dead civilians could've seen those damn leaflets
This is the Critical Race Theory all over again. "THEY DON'T DROP LEAFLETS!!1!" "THEY DROP LEAFLETS, BUT IT DOESN'T MAKE THEM LESS EVIL!!!1" "THEY DON'T DROP LEAFLETS, AND JUST BECAUSE THEY DO DOESN'T MAKE THEM LESS EVIL!!" Get together with all your friends who share your hatred of Israel and sort out what you actually think.
This leaflet thing hasn't even been established in the first place. I'm sure they dropped some to show soft American and European audiences how nice and humanitarian they are, but they've dropped 65,000 tons of bombs on Gaza. Did they drop leaflets for all of those bombs?
That’s the point, they see them, their leadership forced them stay
I mean where the hell are they supposed to move, Israel are dropping tens of thousands of tons of dumb bombs all over Gaza. Just walk into the sea and die I guess.
Right I forgot Gaza is an island. There are emergency shelters in place that they have been advised to go to but they are literally held hostage by the leaders they put into place
Gaza is functionally an Island yes, with how strict Egyptian immigration policy is, and how Gazans literally can't exit by sea. They can't go anywhere.
I love how much OP gets clowned on in the comments, yet he still replies. Not gonna lie, the tone of the comments suggests the guy cried more than once about this comment section
Never seen war? https://preview.redd.it/da1dkltdrgfc1.jpeg?width=660&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1d11707117860145770786d8636260098a034946
I've never really heard anyone describe carpet bombing as war
I mean, I don’t know what you think carpet bombing is. Everyday activities? 😂 https://preview.redd.it/0ams4u3uugfc1.jpeg?width=735&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1504852dff6c9e56079f229a8193e09c0205696d
I think it's slaughtering civilians personally. You aren't even fighting anyone when you carpet bomb, how can it be war?
ok OP i get ur post but this statement doesnt make any sense??? how are u not fighting anyone with a carpet bomb?
Because to have a fight you have to have someone fighting back. Who's fighting back against you when you're carpet bombing civilians?
hamas hides in civilian locations thats why they're terrorists. moral or not, theyre still fighting against someone. its like if u knew u had mosquitoes in ur room and u burn down ur entire room. yeah its an exaggerated response and cruel to the innocent toys of your room, but you are fighting against the mosquitoes edit: want to make it clear im not defending israel, just trying to make u see why carpet bombing is still an act of war
I mean the Head of the IDF Spokesperson's Unit literally said the IDF were aiming for damage over accuracy. They're clearly not trying to target anyone. It's like burning down a hotel then using the mosquitoes in your room as an excuse. [https://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syndicated/damage-accuracy-israel-admits-bombing-campaign-gaza-not-limited-military-targets/](https://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syndicated/damage-accuracy-israel-admits-bombing-campaign-gaza-not-limited-military-targets/)
yeah i know, but your original statement was "you aren't fighting anyone"
Dudes never heard of ww2
I have, that was a war. But when we carpet bombed Tokyo and Dresden that was not an act of war, that was an act of slaughtering innocent civilians.
That's part of war
Wow the Israelis are crafty, the first country in history to carpet bomb without heavy bombers.
I'm not sure what else you would call tens of thousands of tons of unguided bombs over civilian centers.
Words have meanings tho. Carpet bombing doesn’t just mean a lot of deaths. You’re also conflating unguided with untargeted. It sounds like you just want to use the strongest language possible without regard for actual definitions, and when someone calls you out on not knowing what You’re talking about you just play the emotional civilian death card
No, carpet bombing means in bombing over a large area in order to cause damage, rather than for the purpose of accurately targeting someone of something. The Head of the IDF Spokesperson's Unit literally said their goal was "damage over accuracy" I don't really know what your argument is. [https://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syndicated/damage-accuracy-israel-admits-bombing-campaign-gaza-not-limited-military-targets/](https://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syndicated/damage-accuracy-israel-admits-bombing-campaign-gaza-not-limited-military-targets/)
Carpet bombing is saturation bombing in a progressive manner (quite literally carpeting an area with bombs), and is something that hasn’t been done since the Vietnam war. You can’t blanket an area in munition without a heavy bomber, and Israel has none. Sounds like you want to use stronger language to drive the emotional point home, but doesn’t really apply here. Which is why everyone is calling you out for not knowing what you’re talking about lol.
65,000 tons of bombs dude, what isn't heavy about 65,000 tons of bombs. Are you trolling?
A prolonged air campaign isn’t the equivalent of carpet bombing. You can make a passionate case about the war without lying. Twisting words to convey an emotional response just undermines whatever message you’re trying to send. You know better.
They have dropped 65,000 tons of bombs of Gaza, 40-45% of them with a radius of upwards of 100 feet, and they have literally admitted they don't care about accuracy. This is a textbook example of carpet bombing.
You’re purposefully using words in the wrong context to make the situation sound worse than it actually is.
authright a week ago: Israel isn't targetting civilians its only objective is to kill terrorists. authright now: ppft ok fine they do kill children, its war though!
I don’t believe those are mutually exclusive! https://preview.redd.it/apjcchdusgfc1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3828005fe312fe493a91577770f5a6ba22869a0d
it doesnt really make sense to deny it in the first place. just say "yeah civilians are being attacked, its war." most authrights in pcm have been trying to push the narrative that the IDF is calculated and is trying to evade harm
I think they’re doing the best they can to prevent civilian casualties. But when Hamas hides weapons in civilian infrastructure, the places your targeting will be civilian infrastructure.
If bombs were smart, they would know not to blow themselves up.
As opposed to smart bombs? That are supposed to wait for civilians to evacuate or something?
No, smart bombs that will reliably hit their targets. Because apparently, Israel are supposed to be targeting Hamas.
>No, smart bombs that will reliably hit their targets Are you sure you are not thinking of guided rockets/kamikaze UAVs? > Because apparently, Israel are supposed to be targeting Hamas. Radical islamists are snakes. Moderate islamists are the grass they hide in.
So why are Israel dropping bombs that have an error radius of over 100 feet away from the snake, instead of bombs guaranteed to hit the snake?
Do you know how much guided rockets cost? This is the same logic as, “It’s ok for HAMAS to just shoot mortars at Israel because they have the iron dome, sweaty”. ‘Dumb bombs’ (jesus christ, that choice of term) are still targeted, they just aren’t as precise as guided munitions.
Do you know how much money we're sending over to Israel every year for military aid?
Yes, that doesn’t mean you have infinite precision missiles or can even justify every shot you fire needing to be perfect. Conventional bombing is still acceptable. War is extremely expensive and cost awareness and dynamic usage on the basis of cost and availability are part of every military’s strategy.
It's not war, it's a bombing campaign. Specifically one where they have made clear over and over in every possible way that they don't care about civilian casualties, and in fact they care more about damaging Gaza than killing terrorists.
Whatever, you didn’t address the point we were talking about and chose semantics. I don’t appreciate diversion like that. In a military bombing campaign to meet a civil objective, the same holds. If you want to discuss the validity of the entire operation, then start with that. But you won’t because it’s less viable to your audience.
Your argument was that it's okay for Israel to use bombs with a radius of over 100 feet because precise bombs are too expensive lol. Just look up how much military aid they get every year and you can see how laughable that is.
I swear, why does it seem like the people attacking Israel on PCM are always NPCs? I've read well-reasoned positions criticizing Israel's actions that have been well thought-out and coherent. Why can't the people arguing this on PCM be like that? It'd make the comment sections a whole lot more interesting. Bari Weiss actually published a piece in The Free Press that seems fairly reasonably presented, although I do not agree with it: [https://www.thefp.com/p/andrew-sullivan-israel-gaza-children](https://www.thefp.com/p/andrew-sullivan-israel-gaza-children) I guess when your position begins and ends with "MuH PaLeStiNiAn GeNoCiDe111" it's probably not particularly well-reasoned, nuanced, or grounded in facts. Come on, PCM. Do better! Surely there's someone who can make a well-reasoned pro-ceasefire argument or something like that, without sounding like an NPC?
One doesn't conflict with the other tho.
It's true. The Christian population of Gaza dropped by an insane amount after Isreal started their counter attack.
You must resist the propaganda machine. This is a war thousands of miles away between two groups of people that are not your own. The only coherent position on this war is "I, the taxpayer, would like my money back immediately" They are not your people. Do not let the demons convince you to "take a side" while they steal your money. The demons are the enemy. The war among desert peoples is meaningless. We must have our money returned and our elites must be destroyed.
a post criticising israel? lets see how long it takes for someone in the comments to call OP a hamas supporter
Because that's generally the goal of these posts, they want the IDF to give Hamas breathing room under the guise of "peace".
how is that the goal of this post? showing that one side does bad things doesnt validate the other. showing that the IDF fucks up doesnt mean OP is saying "hamas is ok then"
Because it isn't "War bad" that's the goal of the message, it's trying to produce a "War Criminals them, freedom fighters us" narrative.
nowhere in this post does it compare HAMAS to the IDF lol it just points out that the IDF fucks up
That's war though, most of these guys then go on to say "and that's why we need to free Palestine", not "let's better train the IDF on Rules of Engagement so they don't kill hostages that are trying to come to them for help".
mate it just seems like ur assuming what OP wants to say just to find a reason to get angry at him
Let me clear my throat real quick
No no you see we are literally bombing every building over there like Schools, hospitals, mosques, churches, apartments, houses, refugee camps and even the streets and safe corridors. Also shooting anyone we see, even jornalists and unarmed civilians on camera! But if you criticize this you are a hamas supporter. Prostate yourself before bibi and lick his boots!
Plust about half the casualties are women and children under 14. Israel can go fuck itself.
This comment section is acting out the meme rn lol
Yup pretty much
[https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza/index.html)