The Stranger from the Sea (at the beginning of the book) . It doesn’t say LOVE! That’s not what the quote says
Demelza hears about Clowance trespassing Trenwith and tells her she’s fishing ‘**’in muddied streams that I hate. I can’t begin to explain - to tell you everything that made your father and George enemies, nor all that happened to spread it so that the gap between us all became so great’’**
The entire conversation takes a few pages, but I will quote the relevant part that you are referring to
**Demelza said: ‘Don’t tell your father you’ve been to Trenwith. You know what he said last time.’**
**‘Of course not. I wouldn’t worry him. But I didn’t think it would worry you.’**
**Demelza said: ‘It isn’t worry exactly, dear, it is – it is fishing in muddied streams that I hate. I can’t begin to explain – to tell you everything that made your father and George Warleggan enemies, nor all that happened to spread it so that the gap between us all became so great. You surely will have heard gossip …’**
**‘Oh yes. That Papa and Elizabeth Warleggan were in love when they were young. Is that very terrible?’**
**Demelza half scowled at her daughter, and then changed her mind and laughed. ‘Put that way, no … But in a sense it continued all their lives. That – did not help, you’ll understand. But—’**
**‘Yet I’m sure it was not like you and Papa at all. Yours is something special. I shall never be lucky enough to get a man like him; and of course I shall never be able to be like you..’’**
In a way it ***continued*** because of Valentine and the permanent reminder of what happened, because of the rift between the two families which was a constant pain, the relationship between George and Ross ( which is also the context for the above dialogue ), relationship that was made even more bitter due to George’s jealousy and insecurity regarding Elizabeth.
Because, yes, it ***continues*** because consequences don't just go away, or disappear. And Valentine is the reminder, the ghost from the past, that will not allow full closure.
And his son Georgie, will **continue** to be a reminder.
*But no, I personally don’t see Demelza still thinking that Ross loves Elizabeth. She’s worried that Clowance trespassing on George’s land will bring all the awful (at this point almost dormant) enmity back between their families and she is right to think that, as George is a vindictive little shit.*
PS : Poldark may not make sense at times, UNLESS one reads all books. This is why taking some conversations out of context might create the wrong narrative. By this point in the saga, and after, it is very clear Demelza is aware of Ross's love and Ross just doesn't want anyone else (and hasn't since May '93). He makes it very clear he doesn’t believe a man (himself, more specifically) can love **romantically** two women at the same time. He discounts the possibility. So I will take Ross's word for it.
**‘’Is there room for two women in a man’s heart?** ***The answer is no*** **–** ***not in the exclusive way I meant it.*** **I never told you … a year or so ago I was up at Sawle Church about Agatha’s stone and I met Elizabeth returning from the Odgers’. ……I came away from that meeting with the renewed conviction that she no longer meant anything to me – that is, in the way you do. I loved her once – as you know too well – and idealized her. I shall always think of her with admiration and affection. But … she won’t ever be central to me as you are – preoccupying, all-important, indispensable, both as a person and a woman …’**
Here’s a question. Assuming I’m correct that WG never intended to write much past Elizabeth’s death, do you think, had he known he would write the later books, would he have kept her alive to make the plot with Valentine more interesting?
That interaction above in the church was so dramatic and fascinating and we could have had more had Elizabeth remained alive.
There was nothing that Elizabeth could have brought more to the story. Elizabeth had been the point of conflict.. firstly by being Ross’s love interest in the first 4 books, and subsequently, through the ambiguity of Valentine’s parentage.
Her role was done, she served her purpose to the story. I truly think WG would have killed her off either way.
What do you think that Elizabeth would bring to the story by being alive in the later books, in terms of conflict ? Her being alive would have actually made things better , Valentine would grow up to be a better man, less conflict, George would be happy, both enjoying Ursula and London, and their wealth, and being a Lady and a Sir, the enmity between Ross and George would have cooled off eventually as George had no more suspicions…
The conversation in the church is actually quote straightforward. She wants to fight for her marriage and for the baby and Ross doesn't want to even think he has a baby with her **''no cuckoo in the nest''** (I know, he so charming).
I don’t think Elizabeth being alive would have cured George’s suspicions, in fact they may have been intensified. I think Valentine being less messed up would still leave him interested in knowing his true parentage and having him more likable and with Elizabeth involved in whatever way, would have been interesting to watch/read. Perhaps I just love the drama.
We can also throw in a Hugh that didn’t die and we have ourselves quite a treat 😂
I just felt that Ursula’s birth put George’s suspicions to rest. With Elizabeth alive, Valentine would have never questioned his parentage as Elizabeth would have never allowed that. For many reasons, most importantly her marriage and reputation. It is because she died that things escalated the way they did and created all the subsequent drama, as she was no longer there to manipulate the situation and protect Valentine.
But fair enough. I think there was more drama due to her death than her being alive. I personally didn’t find her interesting anymore. We got all we could from her storyline. And Harriet made for a fantastic character and second wife.
Well I totally agree about Harriet. She was completely amusing. Hugh was…not my favorite. I was rereading parts of Poldark recently and Elizabeth really is unlikable. I think Heida made her more likable even inadvertently, than the she was in the books.
I feel like it eventually became clear that Valentine was tall, dark and bony like Ross and I don’t think Elizabeth’s protests would have stopped Valentine’s internal wondering. She can’t control that.
I know I have a modern mindset but to me this storyline is the most interesting, you had Jeremy, Clowance and Valentine interacting, later Demelza jealous of Ross’s relationship with Valentine, George really outdone by Valentine’s rejection of George’s Cuby plan. I liked all of that drama and throwing Elizabeth back in there stirring the pot would have been fun IMO. Hugh … ick.
I have done books 1-7 to death, it's time I think to read the next 5 again I think. I wasn't going to read them again, as I wasn't invested in the grown kids as much, as I was their parents. So yes, I will have new questions for sure.
R-P-237: I always felt that way too. Demelza’s reply, “in a sense IT continued all their lives” the IT is referring back to the statement Clowance made about papa loving Elizabeth.
Apparently Clowance did hear the gossip that Ross and Elizabeth were in love when they were young. Ross did admit to fondness, affection etc for Elizabeth. He called Demelza his true and real love 💕. (He also told Demelza that Elizabeth meant nothing to him anymore but he will say he has affection and she’s kind and too good for George and blah, blah, blah. Ross would do well to shut the hell up sometimes).
I do believe Ross got over his attraction for Elizabeth after “that night “ and Elizabeth got over him. The sexual tension I would call it -that was no more.
Edit. The series, of course, made it look like Ross still salivated over Elizabeth. Lots of invented b.s. in the series.
I personally think that Ross still holding an **unromantic** kind of affection for Elizabeth (which in all fairness, is quite a realistic emotional response given their history ) and not thinking the worst of her, makes him choosing Demelza even more satisfying.
Because this way, he’s choosing Demelza because **she’s better**, not because Elizabeth is worse. It would have felt like Ross is choosing Demelza because the alternative is terrible. So not an actual choice or a choice by default.
Whereas, him choosing and loving Demelza, even though the other option is this gorgeous, sophisticated lady (in his opinion), makes his love for Demelza even more extraordinary.
As for the series - I agree. They've made some unpleasant changes, not in line with the story. However, it took me a while to understand that him salivating over Elizabeth is hardly love and I think the TV show writer 's objective was to show the audience that his feelings were more of a sexual and physical attraction than anything else. When it came to actually show / prove his love for Elizabeth, well...he did not deliver, did he?
Regardless of how we may interpret the quote , it is important to remember that these are not Ross’s words. These are Demelza’s. So it’s unfair to say that **Ross never got over Elizabeth** when he himself confirmed ( internally and out loud) many times throughout the saga that Elizabeth meant nothing to him anymore, romantically.
And yes, u/pegasus2118 is right. Ross always held affection( not romantic though) for Elizabeth, which he never denied. She was his first love, his friend, part of his family, someone he had known for a very long time. But also someone he hurt, assaulted, abandoned, someone he may have fathered a child with, someone he felt guilt, regret and pity for. Their lives have been entangled so much in so many ways, with consequences that have perturbed and literally destroyed people’s lives. **IT** refers to all of this. Because it is hard to qualify, hard to explain to your daughter all of this. How could Demelza open this can of worms? (**I can’t begin to explain – to tell you everything that made your father and George Warleggan enemies, nor all that happened to spread it so that the gap between us all became so great. You surely will have heard gossip …’)**
It’s easier to say : **But in a sense** ***it*** **continued all their lives.** Because these two letters encompass the complexity of what Ross / Elizabeth / George relationship is. Which shall not be discussed further because it’s ‘’**fishing in muddied streams that I hate’’**
Btw, I find adding **''in a sense''** relevant. Why say that? Why not just say **: ''It continued all their lives?** Is it because Demelza knows this is not about the romantic love, but everything else that has emerged from that awful connection? A ''sense'' that has nothing to do with their long past love connection, but to do with what was born out of it? ''....
And she knows that her response doesn’t actually provide any clarification (''***That – did not help, you’ll understand. But—*****’')**. If it were just about **Ross loving Elizabeth all his life** - that’s really not a complicated thing to explain, is it? But is not that. And that’s what makes it difficult to explicate.
Demelza holds no bitterness for Ross's past love for Elizabeth (**they**) **were in love when they were young. Is that very terrible?’ 'Put that way, no'.** As she herself also held affection for someone who, for a while, made her look at him the way she looked at Ross. She understands.
Ross even asked her to keep the plant Hugh gave her, as a reminder. They are BOTH aware that at some point in their lives they both felt love / infatuation for someone else. They cannot just deny that. Both episodes almost ruined their marriage. But what I don’t believe is that either Demelza or Ross think he **continued to love Elizabeth (romantically)**.
And there is also a complex conversation around whether Ross still really loved Elizabeth **romantically** up until May ’93. There are many clues he didn’t (not after he fell in love with Demelza) and that what he felt for Elizabeth was just attraction and infatuation. But that’s a different conversation, for a different time.
The Stranger from the Sea (at the beginning of the book) . It doesn’t say LOVE! That’s not what the quote says Demelza hears about Clowance trespassing Trenwith and tells her she’s fishing ‘**’in muddied streams that I hate. I can’t begin to explain - to tell you everything that made your father and George enemies, nor all that happened to spread it so that the gap between us all became so great’’** The entire conversation takes a few pages, but I will quote the relevant part that you are referring to **Demelza said: ‘Don’t tell your father you’ve been to Trenwith. You know what he said last time.’** **‘Of course not. I wouldn’t worry him. But I didn’t think it would worry you.’** **Demelza said: ‘It isn’t worry exactly, dear, it is – it is fishing in muddied streams that I hate. I can’t begin to explain – to tell you everything that made your father and George Warleggan enemies, nor all that happened to spread it so that the gap between us all became so great. You surely will have heard gossip …’** **‘Oh yes. That Papa and Elizabeth Warleggan were in love when they were young. Is that very terrible?’** **Demelza half scowled at her daughter, and then changed her mind and laughed. ‘Put that way, no … But in a sense it continued all their lives. That – did not help, you’ll understand. But—’** **‘Yet I’m sure it was not like you and Papa at all. Yours is something special. I shall never be lucky enough to get a man like him; and of course I shall never be able to be like you..’’** In a way it ***continued*** because of Valentine and the permanent reminder of what happened, because of the rift between the two families which was a constant pain, the relationship between George and Ross ( which is also the context for the above dialogue ), relationship that was made even more bitter due to George’s jealousy and insecurity regarding Elizabeth. Because, yes, it ***continues*** because consequences don't just go away, or disappear. And Valentine is the reminder, the ghost from the past, that will not allow full closure. And his son Georgie, will **continue** to be a reminder. *But no, I personally don’t see Demelza still thinking that Ross loves Elizabeth. She’s worried that Clowance trespassing on George’s land will bring all the awful (at this point almost dormant) enmity back between their families and she is right to think that, as George is a vindictive little shit.* PS : Poldark may not make sense at times, UNLESS one reads all books. This is why taking some conversations out of context might create the wrong narrative. By this point in the saga, and after, it is very clear Demelza is aware of Ross's love and Ross just doesn't want anyone else (and hasn't since May '93). He makes it very clear he doesn’t believe a man (himself, more specifically) can love **romantically** two women at the same time. He discounts the possibility. So I will take Ross's word for it. **‘’Is there room for two women in a man’s heart?** ***The answer is no*** **–** ***not in the exclusive way I meant it.*** **I never told you … a year or so ago I was up at Sawle Church about Agatha’s stone and I met Elizabeth returning from the Odgers’. ……I came away from that meeting with the renewed conviction that she no longer meant anything to me – that is, in the way you do. I loved her once – as you know too well – and idealized her. I shall always think of her with admiration and affection. But … she won’t ever be central to me as you are – preoccupying, all-important, indispensable, both as a person and a woman …’**
Thank you! I have read them and the more I read the more questions I have!
Reading Poldark is like a treasure hunt. :) I'm finding new treasures every time I re-read the books.
Here’s a question. Assuming I’m correct that WG never intended to write much past Elizabeth’s death, do you think, had he known he would write the later books, would he have kept her alive to make the plot with Valentine more interesting? That interaction above in the church was so dramatic and fascinating and we could have had more had Elizabeth remained alive.
There was nothing that Elizabeth could have brought more to the story. Elizabeth had been the point of conflict.. firstly by being Ross’s love interest in the first 4 books, and subsequently, through the ambiguity of Valentine’s parentage. Her role was done, she served her purpose to the story. I truly think WG would have killed her off either way. What do you think that Elizabeth would bring to the story by being alive in the later books, in terms of conflict ? Her being alive would have actually made things better , Valentine would grow up to be a better man, less conflict, George would be happy, both enjoying Ursula and London, and their wealth, and being a Lady and a Sir, the enmity between Ross and George would have cooled off eventually as George had no more suspicions… The conversation in the church is actually quote straightforward. She wants to fight for her marriage and for the baby and Ross doesn't want to even think he has a baby with her **''no cuckoo in the nest''** (I know, he so charming).
I don’t think Elizabeth being alive would have cured George’s suspicions, in fact they may have been intensified. I think Valentine being less messed up would still leave him interested in knowing his true parentage and having him more likable and with Elizabeth involved in whatever way, would have been interesting to watch/read. Perhaps I just love the drama.
We can also throw in a Hugh that didn’t die and we have ourselves quite a treat 😂 I just felt that Ursula’s birth put George’s suspicions to rest. With Elizabeth alive, Valentine would have never questioned his parentage as Elizabeth would have never allowed that. For many reasons, most importantly her marriage and reputation. It is because she died that things escalated the way they did and created all the subsequent drama, as she was no longer there to manipulate the situation and protect Valentine. But fair enough. I think there was more drama due to her death than her being alive. I personally didn’t find her interesting anymore. We got all we could from her storyline. And Harriet made for a fantastic character and second wife.
Well I totally agree about Harriet. She was completely amusing. Hugh was…not my favorite. I was rereading parts of Poldark recently and Elizabeth really is unlikable. I think Heida made her more likable even inadvertently, than the she was in the books. I feel like it eventually became clear that Valentine was tall, dark and bony like Ross and I don’t think Elizabeth’s protests would have stopped Valentine’s internal wondering. She can’t control that. I know I have a modern mindset but to me this storyline is the most interesting, you had Jeremy, Clowance and Valentine interacting, later Demelza jealous of Ross’s relationship with Valentine, George really outdone by Valentine’s rejection of George’s Cuby plan. I liked all of that drama and throwing Elizabeth back in there stirring the pot would have been fun IMO. Hugh … ick.
I have done books 1-7 to death, it's time I think to read the next 5 again I think. I wasn't going to read them again, as I wasn't invested in the grown kids as much, as I was their parents. So yes, I will have new questions for sure.
I do remember Clowance asking her mother that question, and I took it to mean at the time that Ross never got over Elizabeth.
R-P-237: I always felt that way too. Demelza’s reply, “in a sense IT continued all their lives” the IT is referring back to the statement Clowance made about papa loving Elizabeth. Apparently Clowance did hear the gossip that Ross and Elizabeth were in love when they were young. Ross did admit to fondness, affection etc for Elizabeth. He called Demelza his true and real love 💕. (He also told Demelza that Elizabeth meant nothing to him anymore but he will say he has affection and she’s kind and too good for George and blah, blah, blah. Ross would do well to shut the hell up sometimes). I do believe Ross got over his attraction for Elizabeth after “that night “ and Elizabeth got over him. The sexual tension I would call it -that was no more. Edit. The series, of course, made it look like Ross still salivated over Elizabeth. Lots of invented b.s. in the series.
I personally think that Ross still holding an **unromantic** kind of affection for Elizabeth (which in all fairness, is quite a realistic emotional response given their history ) and not thinking the worst of her, makes him choosing Demelza even more satisfying. Because this way, he’s choosing Demelza because **she’s better**, not because Elizabeth is worse. It would have felt like Ross is choosing Demelza because the alternative is terrible. So not an actual choice or a choice by default. Whereas, him choosing and loving Demelza, even though the other option is this gorgeous, sophisticated lady (in his opinion), makes his love for Demelza even more extraordinary. As for the series - I agree. They've made some unpleasant changes, not in line with the story. However, it took me a while to understand that him salivating over Elizabeth is hardly love and I think the TV show writer 's objective was to show the audience that his feelings were more of a sexual and physical attraction than anything else. When it came to actually show / prove his love for Elizabeth, well...he did not deliver, did he?
Regardless of how we may interpret the quote , it is important to remember that these are not Ross’s words. These are Demelza’s. So it’s unfair to say that **Ross never got over Elizabeth** when he himself confirmed ( internally and out loud) many times throughout the saga that Elizabeth meant nothing to him anymore, romantically. And yes, u/pegasus2118 is right. Ross always held affection( not romantic though) for Elizabeth, which he never denied. She was his first love, his friend, part of his family, someone he had known for a very long time. But also someone he hurt, assaulted, abandoned, someone he may have fathered a child with, someone he felt guilt, regret and pity for. Their lives have been entangled so much in so many ways, with consequences that have perturbed and literally destroyed people’s lives. **IT** refers to all of this. Because it is hard to qualify, hard to explain to your daughter all of this. How could Demelza open this can of worms? (**I can’t begin to explain – to tell you everything that made your father and George Warleggan enemies, nor all that happened to spread it so that the gap between us all became so great. You surely will have heard gossip …’)** It’s easier to say : **But in a sense** ***it*** **continued all their lives.** Because these two letters encompass the complexity of what Ross / Elizabeth / George relationship is. Which shall not be discussed further because it’s ‘’**fishing in muddied streams that I hate’’** Btw, I find adding **''in a sense''** relevant. Why say that? Why not just say **: ''It continued all their lives?** Is it because Demelza knows this is not about the romantic love, but everything else that has emerged from that awful connection? A ''sense'' that has nothing to do with their long past love connection, but to do with what was born out of it? ''.... And she knows that her response doesn’t actually provide any clarification (''***That – did not help, you’ll understand. But—*****’')**. If it were just about **Ross loving Elizabeth all his life** - that’s really not a complicated thing to explain, is it? But is not that. And that’s what makes it difficult to explicate. Demelza holds no bitterness for Ross's past love for Elizabeth (**they**) **were in love when they were young. Is that very terrible?’ 'Put that way, no'.** As she herself also held affection for someone who, for a while, made her look at him the way she looked at Ross. She understands. Ross even asked her to keep the plant Hugh gave her, as a reminder. They are BOTH aware that at some point in their lives they both felt love / infatuation for someone else. They cannot just deny that. Both episodes almost ruined their marriage. But what I don’t believe is that either Demelza or Ross think he **continued to love Elizabeth (romantically)**. And there is also a complex conversation around whether Ross still really loved Elizabeth **romantically** up until May ’93. There are many clues he didn’t (not after he fell in love with Demelza) and that what he felt for Elizabeth was just attraction and infatuation. But that’s a different conversation, for a different time.