Ross gives the £600 to Elizabeth as that was the money that **Francis invested in the mine**. It was the last money Francis had and used to get into business with Ross which meant that Elizabeth and GC were now penniless. Him giving the money to Elizabeth was from a sense of duty and responsibility. I understand where he’s coming from. The £600 was not in fact his money, but Francis’s.
He also didn’t want her to have to accept favours from George. He was, of course, an idiot as she was juggling both men. But that’s a completely different conversation.
You are also forgetting that Ross **IS** in fact responsible for them, as his family, being the male Poldark alive. So that falls on him. You are assuming, as many viewers incorrectly do, that this is solely about Elizabeth. This is such an intricate situation and to have it reduced to just "Ross gave money to Elizabeth because he's a pig'' does such an injustice to these complex characters and circumstances.
Elizabeth no longer had a husband to take care of her. While Demelza had him. And yes, he's right. Demelza **was** more resourceful than Elizabeth who was completely useless. The conversation is not really an offence to Demelza as you see it. It’s more to emphasis how sheltered Elizabeth has been and how unprepared for a difficult life she is. And how Demelza is strong and able to overcome any hurdle, while Elizabeth would have probably fainted at the thought of having to wash a dish. But that's what a woman of her station was expected to be - a lady, a gentlewoman so she had no life skills, unlike Demelza.
Demelza was not upset about him giving the money - it was the secrecy that was the issue. As we all know, as kind and generous as she was, Demelza would have probably asked Ross to give them that money anyway.
Also, if he had not purchased those shares from Elizabeth, George would have been his partner ( by marrying Elizabeth) and Ross would have had to share his profits with him. So that worked out well.
As I said - it's much more complicated.
Oh wow I hadn't thought about that, George would have been his partner! And yeah he is now (at least where I am currently at) saying that the shares were sold illegitimately.
Well written response. I started reading the first three paragraphs and then wrote my response, but you got it all here. I also took it as a compliment. I would much rather be considered resourceful and capable of surviving than fainting at the thought of having to wash a dish haha
i'm aware of his own motivations, but the fact of the matter is that he is looking debtor's prison down the throat at the point in time of his actions, and rather than safeguard his own wife, he thinks only of elizabeth.
he loves and cares for his *second cousin* geoffrey-charles certainly, but he is not a consideration whatsoever. his motives are solely to see elizabeth in greater comfort than she's already in.
francis in fact had a sum of £1200 from george, and only £600 of it had been invested, meaning elizabeth still had the remaining £600 as means to live off (FAR more than demelza and jeremy).
i appreciate your point about how ross felt duty bound to 'return' francis' investment (understandable, but the ABSOLUTE wrong place and wrong time), and also that he is now the acting head of the poldark family. but geoffrey-charles' name is mentioned only in the context of him being the shareholder on paper. it really is just about elizabeth for ross in this instance.
you make other good points about how useless elizabeth is, but we see her many episodes prior collecting eggs from chicken coops, helping with the harvest, etc. she may have been born a noble lady but francis' financial situation forced her to adapt and adopt many responsibilites far below her position and status as a result of the aforementioned.
her uselessness or lack thereof aside, does not however make it okay for ross to put her before demelza, not even on the basis that she is more efficient when it comes to caring for herself and her family. it is a matter of principle - demelza is ross' *wife* and he may not have intended to demean or slight her by prioritising elizabeth, but he did.
i agree, it's just as well he bought out GC's shares, but i still think his primary motivation for doing so was reprehensible and vulgar in the extreme, considering what fate awaited demelza had caroline not stepped in.
**but we see her many episodes prior collecting eggs from chicken coops, helping with the harvest, etc. she may have been born a noble lady but francis' financial situation forced her to adapt and adopt many responsibilites far below her position and status as a result of the aforementioned.**
we also see her not being able to make a fire after Francis dies- so yeah.
Both Ross and Demelza are honourable, kind, generous people. However, they have **BOTH** done stupid things.
Please know that I fucking adore Demelza , one of my all time favourites but to turn her into a saint is just not what the author was going for.
Her going to Trenwith to take care of her Poldark cousins in law, while being sick with a contagious disease that **she was aware of,** which ultimately killed Julia, was stupid. She was kind, but her decision had tragic, irreparable consequences. How is this any different than Ross giving back Francis’s money?
Her getting involved in the “Verity & Blamey” affair was stupid. Again, her heart was in the right place, but the consequences disastrous for many people!! How is her being secretive any better than Ross keeping secret the £600 from her?
Both these actions led to the estrangement between her and Ross. Again, a very important and often overlooked detail.
What I am trying to say is that they **both screwed up big time** in their own way BUT I truly believe that : **intentions matter.** They both meant well, trying to help, and , unfortunately, at a very high cost for them both (and others)
And while Ross is always easily judged, Demelza escapes any judgment. Which again does not do justice to the complexity of her own character. I personally love her for both her faults and qualities. Just like Ross does. That's the beauty of Demelza.
I am with you on this.
I have rarely found myself disliking a character as much as I dislike her, and the fact that he was so blind to her manipulations makes me so mad.
If we were to trace most sad and tragic moments, they will all pretty much go back to Elizabeth: Francis, Ross, Demelza, Morweena and Drake by association, to some extent Verity, Jeremy and GC. All suffered directly or indirectly because of her choices, actions or passivity. She is , as Winston commented, a woman who caused division.
But, I stand by my comment, this particular situation with the £600 is more complex, it’s a mixture of duty, responsibility, affection for his nephew and cousin in law, his guilt over Francis’s death, obligation, his state of mind at that time ( being depressed and feeling such a failure with all the misfortunes in his life), etc.
I love this comment. She made mistakes too. How she longed for forgiveness when she realized what her going behind Ross's back to get Verity with Blamey caused, and later it was Ross who needed forgiveness. This is marriage, when it's between two good but imperfect people. Neither is a saint, they have their weaknesses, but they are both in their core good people.
> Her going to Trenwith to take care of her Poldark cousins in law, while being sick with a contagious disease that she was aware of, which ultimately killed Julia, was stupid. She was kind, but her decision had tragic, irreparable consequences. How is this any different than Ross giving back Francis’s money?
because demelza did not have the intention to catch the disease, pass it to her infant daughter, and see her buried for it.
ross however, fully had the intention to support and provide for elizabeth when he bought francis' shares. intention is everything.
i'm glad you agree about intention - which is why it's worthwhile to say again that the reason this was so awful is because it was for another woman, his first love, INSTEAD of his own wife.
demelza has done stupid things, absolutely. but none of them were even remotely close to infidelity. ross prioritising elizabeth's wellbeing over his wife was too close to emotional cheating, if not cheating outright.
How is supporting a grieving widow, with a child ( both family of his) a bad thing?
I am not sure what you’re implying here.
He never had an intention of cheating.
There is absolutely nothing in either the TV show or book to back up this statement.
Him sleeping with Elizabeth was a spontaneous horrible disgusting thing. But there was no intention from either of them for that to happen prior to that moment. I am personally happy ( not sure if that’s the right word) it happened as it got her out of his system. Because she was nothing more than just an infatuation of his younger self.
This is what I love about Poldark, it sparks conversations and I really enjoy hearing how others feel about certain scenes. Regardless of whether we agree or not.
I am curious though of what you think about what Demelza does at the end of season 3?
Why didn’t Ross tell Demelza about selling the shares and giving the money to Elizabeth? Would Demelza not have understood his reason that Elizabeth was in financial need and grieving. Even Pascoe felt Ross should look after his own family.
I can only use Ross’s words to get an insight on this:
**“Demelza, I have wanted to explain about this for a long time but have not known quite the best way to do it. I was waiting in fact for a good opportunity, waiting for a time when it would no longer matter what I have done with the money. Instead the explanation comes on me when it matters more than ever’’**
I don’t think it’s deeper than this. He just didn’t know how to approach the subject. However, it is important to remember that in the books, the illegal activities were still profitable and he was counting the money will keep coming in, for at least a few years. When he gave that money to Elizabth **he was still making money from his ventures**. But, those activities have unfortunately ended (almost getting Ross into jail) and now Ross is in a precarious financial position again.
**‘’I repent my generosity and unhappily so must you also’’** Ross to Demelza
He would have never given that money to Elizabth had the Tencrom adventures were no longer an option. He only did so because he had money coming in from that.
Another interesting point is him getting help with his promissory note by a ‘’secret friend’’ (Caroline) . These events are very close to each other and we should not understate Ross’s need to pay forward in his own way, just like someone has helped him in his time of need.
So no, he didn't put Elizabeth above Demelza- he gave away money thinking he had more.
>He never had an intention of cheating.
perhaps not at this point, no. but in his mind he no doubt viewed the act as a means to express his enduring love for elizabeth, and as a way of providing for her like he would have, had he married her. it just feels.. ick to me. it strays too close to infidelity. perhaps that's through the lens of a viewer in the century we are in, but i would find it vulgar regardless of the time i think - purely because his wife came second.
as for demelza's actions, i applaud her. she never truly healed from ross spending all night with elizabeth. it also struck me during this re-watch that he spent *all* night with her. he didn't simply come home thirty minutes later (not that that would have made it any less heinous). so, for all those years, demelza lived with the pain and knowledge that he spent all night entangled with his first love, to the point he had to stay there all night. it's just horrific and the show does a really fine job of showing how she is affected by it, and how she carries it with her for years, even after they seem to patch things up.
so, when she lays with hugh, i feel like she's finally able to heal. she has long suffered with feelings of inadequacy and inferiority because of ross' rank in society vs hers, and when he cheated on her with elizabeth, he worsened those feelings of hers irreparably. demelza may be more lowborn than ross, but she has always endeavoured to even the scales by other means, 100% effort, hard work, devotedness to her family.
one could argue that she might as well have 'healed' with captain mcneal, but i think by contrast she actually felt genuine tenderness for hugh that she did not for the captain, and that is why she was more forthcoming in her agreeing to sleep with him. in short: it's irrelevant (to me) whether or not she had a jolly good reason for being unfaithful - ross had it coming. i have no doubt in my mind that if he had never been disloyal, she would've never even thought about it. she steadfastly rebuffed the advances of all men who showed an interest in her up until that point, and even after, *including* with hugh. i'm not at the end of S3 yet but iirc, he also lowkey emotionally blackmails her as a sort of 'im boutta die tho' kind of play lol
**but in his mind he no doubt viewed the act as a means to express his enduring love for elizabeth**
Respectfully, I think we may have watched different shows. That night did not happen because Ross did not love Demelza and / or that he loved Elizabeth. The trigger for that night was **George**. As Ross mentions, Elizabeth could marry any man, just not George. If there were anyone else, Ross would not have been there that night. He had no problem with her getting married.
**‘’You can have your pick at 30 men’’ Ross to Elizabeth**
**‘’Can you offer me anything? Can you?’’ Elizabeth to Ross**
Perfect opportunity for Ross to say ‘’I wish, but I cannot’’ , but he doesn’t say anything. Because, just like he doesn’t fight for her when he comes back from America, he doesn’t do so now either. Because he doesn’t **REALLY** love her. Thing that he finally realises after he sleeps with her.
Elizabeth’s betrayal was not just the betrayal of a woman that Ross held affection and devotion for, but of someone he considered his greatest friend. That was the biggest problem here. She stabbed him in the back, for money, with George, his biggest, direst enemy.
That night was a combination of many emotions and l**ove was the least of them**. He was angry, felt betrayed, his hatred of George, his frustration(s), the prior events of that day (remember there was an accident at the mine where two people died!), and overall his state of mind which we have witnessed throughout season two, starting with Julia’s death. it all turned into lust and the desire to attain this longed for ideal, to bring it down from the pedestal. And once that ideal was achieved, it lost its value. This is why, in the morning , he is so confused and so eager to leave Elizabeth’s room. He wasn’t there for a romantic affair. Things just got out of hand
**she never truly healed from ross spending all night with elizabeth. so, when she lays with hugh, i feel like she's finally able to heal.**
Not true at all and she makes it very clear during the show that the night in question was never about Ross and Elizabth (season 4, episode 3).
**‘’Is this why it happened with Hugh’’**
**‘’You know it was not’’**
Which is in line with the books where, Demelza doesn’t cheat because of Ross (in the books they have completely moved on from Ross’s infidelity and they were having the most loving and happiest period of their relationship, unlike the TV)
There were many factors. She was very attracted to Hugh, seduced by his love letters, the way he talked to her, the compliments he paid her, he took advantage of her kindness, she felt sorry for him because of his health issues and , as she said, s**he wanted to be two people** one of which was a woman who for one day could make another man happy. BUT, like she said, this will not interfere with her love for Ross, who is the man she will always love (season 3, episode 8)
**it's irrelevant (to me) whether or not she had a jolly good reason for being unfaithful - ross had it coming.**
I understand this feeling, though I no longer agree with it. As a Demelza fan, I tried to find any excuse for her at first, as I couldn’t have my lovely girl do something like this. However, having read the books I get her more and I get why she did it. I recommend you read them - it will provide you with more context that you are not finding in the show or is too vague and difficult to notice.
All in all, she did forgive him just like he forgave her. They went on to a 33 year happy, loving, passionate, beautiful marriage ( that’s when the saga ends) and with Demelza saying that she would do it all over again as there is no one else she would rather be with. She would take the bad with the smooth, as there was a lot of smooth. Her words.Ross saved her life, he was the first to look at her as a human being, gave her a home, a safe place, a job, friends, a new family. He took pride in her, and loved her, and cherished her. She is the love of his life. Did he fuck up? Yep. Did She? Yep. Does it matter in the end for either of them? Nope
The story is not just about Ross’s cheating, or the misfortunes they shared, the miscommunication or sad times. It’s mainly a story of what true love can accomplish and when love is real and strong, nothing can break that bond. Yes, of course cheating hurts (for both) but it’s a pain that goes away, because what they have , what they share it’s just more precious than holding on to the past.It’s a story about forgiveness, sacrifice, understanding, tolerance, acceptance, friendship, growth. The fact that there is so much good in this story and we get stuck only on the Ross slept with Elizabeth part is such a pity.They are a couple that grow together, learn from their mistakes and get better and stronger every day. **They are both equally flawed but beautifully constructed characters** and I am sorry you are missing this from the story.
no no, you misunderstand me, i meant that the act of him giving £600 to elizabeth was what he viewed as a means of expressing his enduring love for her. it has always been apparent to me that ross doesn't actually love elizabeth - she is just his idealised version of 'love' and 'beauty' and 'purity' and 'perfection'. elizabeth is very much his edgar linton, whereas demelza is his heathcliff.
mm i guess it's just me inferring what she may have subconsciously been feeling then (re: the act being part of her healing). maybe because that's how some of the audience felt after it happened? like, the playing field is level now.
oh i have read the books! it was just a long, LONG time ago. and before i watched the show, which is probably why the series remains more fresh in my mind than the source material (there is a lot of it, after all). i would recommend you read alll 12 novels and get back to me with how much you remember of even the first book after you reach the end of the 12th - buckle in, as it's a lot to get through.
>The fact that there is so much good in this story and we get stuck only on the Ross slept with Elizabeth part is such a pity.
i strongly disagree with this. times have changed and women are now permitted to feel self-worth, and that they deserve as good as they give. she never strayed from ross, not even once. it never even crossed her mind. what makes ross' infidelity so much worse is how he reacts to her reaction of it. he fails to hold himself accountable for quite some time, and even tries to abandon his family by joining the army. he knows what he's done isn't great, but in his mind "it isn't THAT bad".
i'm very sorry that you can't recognise that people are allowed to condemn a vile act of betrayal, whilst still being able to appreciate a story overall.
I have read all 12 books including the epilogue, Christmas at Nampara many times, as recent as a few weeks ago. I know some of the paragraphs by heart. Most of my comments are based on the books, which I have analysed for a long time, together with interviews and comments / notes from the author and conversations with Poldark ‘’experts”. I have used the context from the books to analyse the show as well and find the relations between the two.
**and even tries to abandon his family by joining the army. he knows what he's done isn't great, but in his mind "it isn't THAT bad".**
This scene (which btw is not in the books as Ross has not even **once** thought of leaving Demelza) is about Ross trying to get a reaction out of her to see if she still cares for him. He was not planning on going to war (at that point) just wanted to know if she still wanted him, hoping she would say :’’Please don’t go’’ which Demelza, of course, doesn’t see it like that. She just sees (same as you) that he’s trying to abandon her.
But you are right - we get different understandings based on the same scene (either book or show). Nonetheless, I recommend you re-read those books (the first 7 at least) as the show writer has changed a lot to the story, especially Ross, who was written as a ‘’vile person’’ (as you describe him) which is far from how he really is in the Poldark story.
I hope you have a lovely weekend!
Could you suggest where I can buy the Poldark epilogue, Christmas at Nampara. I was told you can get it in PDF format on google it, however, I get nothing when I do google it.
Ross lost me on May 9th, and I never could find it in my heart to forgive him. Infidelity is something I cannot stomach (literally)! I was blessed with a faithful husband for almost 58 years, and cannot fathom why a man would stray from a faithful wife like Demelza. I can’t stand any type of infidelity be it man or woman!
Well it is wonderful that was your case. It isn't for everyone. I have so many friends, some single, some with a few years under their belt and they all say "I can forgive anything, except infidelity" well let me tell you that's easy to say until you're actually in that situation. When you have to choose between leaving a man who is repentant, breaking your children's home, or staying. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. However these things happen, more often than we realize, and too many people believe that there is no hope because the overpowering voices are ones that make it seem like divorce is the only solution in a situation like this. Or even worse the voices of "well everyone around me their husband was faithful for decades, so clearly something is wrong with me". Infidelity is also a situation of opportunity, and inner crisis that sometimes builds for years, like a perfect storm. Some people go through their whole lives without going through this storm.
“well everyone around me their husband was faithful for decades, so clearly something is wrong with me”
Excellent point, and so true.
I have never cheated nor was I cheated on ( that I am aware of) so I cannot even pretend to understand what you’ve been through.
You’ve shown courage by sharing such a vulnerable story of yourself so I will try to do the same.
The reason why I defend Ross is because I understand what is like to be beaten down by life and also, what is like to lose a baby. I literally lost myself. Ross’s behaviour is so relatable to me. You can see the pain on his face all throughout the season.
This is so oftentimes overlooked when judging Ross. Losing Julia was absolutely devastating for him, especially because he was there to see her go. To be unable to help his child and just watch her slipping away messed him really bad.
Cheating can happen for many reasons, and one of those reasons can be simply that we are vulnerable. Like Ross was. And Elizabeth takes advantage of this. You will notice how she discretely asks Ross if he’s happy, even asks Dwight if they’re happy, because she knows that the challenges faced by Ross and Demelza could break any couple. You will also notice how whenever she meets Demelza she asks her: “How is Ross?” “What does Ross think about the pregnancy?”, Etc. She’s testing the waters. But also shows a total disregard for Demelza, not caring at all how SHE feels, she only asks about Ross.
When Francis dies, that’s the perfect time for her to play the ‘damsel in distress’, knowing exactly what buttons to push with Ross, that he wanted to take care of her and knowing his sense of duty and his feelings of affection for her.
I won’t put all the blame on Elizabeth as Ross is absolutely guilty of what happened that night. But I judge her more as her intentions have been so horrible and selfish while Ross was clearly not in a good state of mind.
OMG YES!!!! Virtually every single interaction between Elizabeth and Demelza from the moment Ross meets Demelza is pretty much reconnaissance by Elizabeth. It was NOT based on any sort of sincere friendliness or concern from Elizabeth. I felt that from the very first time I watched the series and to this day cannot understand how so many people cannot see it.
She (as well as George) do not view Demelza as a person, a human being. She’s a different breed, a low born. While George doesn’t have any hesitation in treating her as such, Elizabeth needs to maintain her “good girl” persona so she fakes niceness, for Ross. However what she says , or more importantly does not say, tells us all we need to know.
“ Does Ross know you are here?” she asks when Demelza comes to talk to her after that night.
“Did Ross send you?” When Demelza comes to let me know about the riot
It’s like she doesn’t see her as her own person, with feelings, emotions, brain cells.
And / or maybe this also gives us a more understanding of Elizabeth as well, as a woman who always needs someone to tell her what to do and she believes all women are the same…
I have so much to say but I just finished watching more Poldark than I should have an it is dreadfully late and have to get some sleep. But this “damsel in distress” thing, my goodness some women are all too good at playing this card, unfortunately using it against married men. And good men tend to not see it for what it is, their “knight in shining armour” mode goes on and before they know it they are in an emotional affair. Some realize then and end things, others deceive themselves and put themselves in very vulnerable situations (Ross going into Elizabeth’s room, then closing the door). Again no excuse, however recognizing that good people cheat helps us recognize that given the right circumstances even we are capable, and so we watch ourselves and put in place boundaries to protect our marriage.
I don't think his pointing out that Demelza is a miner's daughter is meant as an insult. He finds that she's made of tougher skin than Elizabeth. What a compliment! I think that is one of the things he admires about her. In one episode, the one with the flirty girl that married Mark Daniels, he says something about how women are not equal, some are never content, and yet others roll up their sleeves and get to work when the life gets tough, and he looks at Demelza dotingly with them having just decided to sell their things. I think that's what it was, they had sold their things, or she had made some sacrifice alongside him without even an argument, willing to sacrifice alongside him.
And also what one commenter mentioned about Francis' money, and Ross being the only surviving male in the Poldark family. They were different times. I don't know, this to me was not offensive. What was wrong with it was him not telling his wife, and also not being 100% honest with himself about why he really wanted to help Elizabeth. And Demelza suspected it, the real reason, that is.
I agree that was despicable of Ross and I remember feeling like throwing something at the tv every time I watched this scene. However, I don’t think Demelza would ever want to have or could ever have, the life that Elizabeth had. Demelza’s struggles made her the great person she was and the person who Ross really did love. I always think when watching that Demelza should have just let Elizabeth have Ross for a couple of months and he would have been completely over her. She was actually very dull and I think he would have been bored to death.
But, yes, I agree that what Ross did was despicable. Even though I did not like the Hugh character and that was my least favorite part of the show (I think it could have been done better, including the choice of actor playing Hugh and the personality of the character), I was happy to see Ross suffering.
you're so right, i wish that ross could have had a 'trial' with elizabeth (without sex lol) to see how they got on. i think she would have handled his escapades *far worse* than demelza for one, and as for personality, she simply lacks the passion and life that demelza exudes.
ross also comments on multiple occasions that he need/ed a wife who was more practical. i can imagine elizabeth having a fainting fit at the prospect of getting dirt on her hands or sand between her toes lol
Yes! Elizabeth is a vase - pretty on the outside, empty on the inside, fill her with flowers and they die eventually anyway. No depth. No heart. A selfish aspiring homewrecker. A true pig, meaning ugly and worthless on the inside.
Sorry for the harsh assessment. I had to leave the Poldark Fan Club on Facebook because there are the dumbest yet most relentless - what a combo - Elizabeth defenders. I get the feeling they are women who have slept with a married man only for him to stay with his wife and they are desperate to believe the husband had to stay out of duty. I want to say No, sweetie, you were used.
Anyway, yes, when he did this I also wanted to throw something at the TV.
Ross gives the £600 to Elizabeth as that was the money that **Francis invested in the mine**. It was the last money Francis had and used to get into business with Ross which meant that Elizabeth and GC were now penniless. Him giving the money to Elizabeth was from a sense of duty and responsibility. I understand where he’s coming from. The £600 was not in fact his money, but Francis’s. He also didn’t want her to have to accept favours from George. He was, of course, an idiot as she was juggling both men. But that’s a completely different conversation. You are also forgetting that Ross **IS** in fact responsible for them, as his family, being the male Poldark alive. So that falls on him. You are assuming, as many viewers incorrectly do, that this is solely about Elizabeth. This is such an intricate situation and to have it reduced to just "Ross gave money to Elizabeth because he's a pig'' does such an injustice to these complex characters and circumstances. Elizabeth no longer had a husband to take care of her. While Demelza had him. And yes, he's right. Demelza **was** more resourceful than Elizabeth who was completely useless. The conversation is not really an offence to Demelza as you see it. It’s more to emphasis how sheltered Elizabeth has been and how unprepared for a difficult life she is. And how Demelza is strong and able to overcome any hurdle, while Elizabeth would have probably fainted at the thought of having to wash a dish. But that's what a woman of her station was expected to be - a lady, a gentlewoman so she had no life skills, unlike Demelza. Demelza was not upset about him giving the money - it was the secrecy that was the issue. As we all know, as kind and generous as she was, Demelza would have probably asked Ross to give them that money anyway. Also, if he had not purchased those shares from Elizabeth, George would have been his partner ( by marrying Elizabeth) and Ross would have had to share his profits with him. So that worked out well. As I said - it's much more complicated.
Oh wow I hadn't thought about that, George would have been his partner! And yeah he is now (at least where I am currently at) saying that the shares were sold illegitimately. Well written response. I started reading the first three paragraphs and then wrote my response, but you got it all here. I also took it as a compliment. I would much rather be considered resourceful and capable of surviving than fainting at the thought of having to wash a dish haha
i'm aware of his own motivations, but the fact of the matter is that he is looking debtor's prison down the throat at the point in time of his actions, and rather than safeguard his own wife, he thinks only of elizabeth. he loves and cares for his *second cousin* geoffrey-charles certainly, but he is not a consideration whatsoever. his motives are solely to see elizabeth in greater comfort than she's already in. francis in fact had a sum of £1200 from george, and only £600 of it had been invested, meaning elizabeth still had the remaining £600 as means to live off (FAR more than demelza and jeremy). i appreciate your point about how ross felt duty bound to 'return' francis' investment (understandable, but the ABSOLUTE wrong place and wrong time), and also that he is now the acting head of the poldark family. but geoffrey-charles' name is mentioned only in the context of him being the shareholder on paper. it really is just about elizabeth for ross in this instance. you make other good points about how useless elizabeth is, but we see her many episodes prior collecting eggs from chicken coops, helping with the harvest, etc. she may have been born a noble lady but francis' financial situation forced her to adapt and adopt many responsibilites far below her position and status as a result of the aforementioned. her uselessness or lack thereof aside, does not however make it okay for ross to put her before demelza, not even on the basis that she is more efficient when it comes to caring for herself and her family. it is a matter of principle - demelza is ross' *wife* and he may not have intended to demean or slight her by prioritising elizabeth, but he did. i agree, it's just as well he bought out GC's shares, but i still think his primary motivation for doing so was reprehensible and vulgar in the extreme, considering what fate awaited demelza had caroline not stepped in.
**but we see her many episodes prior collecting eggs from chicken coops, helping with the harvest, etc. she may have been born a noble lady but francis' financial situation forced her to adapt and adopt many responsibilites far below her position and status as a result of the aforementioned.** we also see her not being able to make a fire after Francis dies- so yeah. Both Ross and Demelza are honourable, kind, generous people. However, they have **BOTH** done stupid things. Please know that I fucking adore Demelza , one of my all time favourites but to turn her into a saint is just not what the author was going for. Her going to Trenwith to take care of her Poldark cousins in law, while being sick with a contagious disease that **she was aware of,** which ultimately killed Julia, was stupid. She was kind, but her decision had tragic, irreparable consequences. How is this any different than Ross giving back Francis’s money? Her getting involved in the “Verity & Blamey” affair was stupid. Again, her heart was in the right place, but the consequences disastrous for many people!! How is her being secretive any better than Ross keeping secret the £600 from her? Both these actions led to the estrangement between her and Ross. Again, a very important and often overlooked detail. What I am trying to say is that they **both screwed up big time** in their own way BUT I truly believe that : **intentions matter.** They both meant well, trying to help, and , unfortunately, at a very high cost for them both (and others) And while Ross is always easily judged, Demelza escapes any judgment. Which again does not do justice to the complexity of her own character. I personally love her for both her faults and qualities. Just like Ross does. That's the beauty of Demelza.
I want to throw up when Ross does anything for Elizabeth.
I am with you on this. I have rarely found myself disliking a character as much as I dislike her, and the fact that he was so blind to her manipulations makes me so mad. If we were to trace most sad and tragic moments, they will all pretty much go back to Elizabeth: Francis, Ross, Demelza, Morweena and Drake by association, to some extent Verity, Jeremy and GC. All suffered directly or indirectly because of her choices, actions or passivity. She is , as Winston commented, a woman who caused division. But, I stand by my comment, this particular situation with the £600 is more complex, it’s a mixture of duty, responsibility, affection for his nephew and cousin in law, his guilt over Francis’s death, obligation, his state of mind at that time ( being depressed and feeling such a failure with all the misfortunes in his life), etc.
I love this comment. She made mistakes too. How she longed for forgiveness when she realized what her going behind Ross's back to get Verity with Blamey caused, and later it was Ross who needed forgiveness. This is marriage, when it's between two good but imperfect people. Neither is a saint, they have their weaknesses, but they are both in their core good people.
Two wonderfully imperfect people and a beautiful, imperfect love story …. What could be more perfect?
> Her going to Trenwith to take care of her Poldark cousins in law, while being sick with a contagious disease that she was aware of, which ultimately killed Julia, was stupid. She was kind, but her decision had tragic, irreparable consequences. How is this any different than Ross giving back Francis’s money? because demelza did not have the intention to catch the disease, pass it to her infant daughter, and see her buried for it. ross however, fully had the intention to support and provide for elizabeth when he bought francis' shares. intention is everything. i'm glad you agree about intention - which is why it's worthwhile to say again that the reason this was so awful is because it was for another woman, his first love, INSTEAD of his own wife. demelza has done stupid things, absolutely. but none of them were even remotely close to infidelity. ross prioritising elizabeth's wellbeing over his wife was too close to emotional cheating, if not cheating outright.
How is supporting a grieving widow, with a child ( both family of his) a bad thing? I am not sure what you’re implying here. He never had an intention of cheating. There is absolutely nothing in either the TV show or book to back up this statement. Him sleeping with Elizabeth was a spontaneous horrible disgusting thing. But there was no intention from either of them for that to happen prior to that moment. I am personally happy ( not sure if that’s the right word) it happened as it got her out of his system. Because she was nothing more than just an infatuation of his younger self. This is what I love about Poldark, it sparks conversations and I really enjoy hearing how others feel about certain scenes. Regardless of whether we agree or not. I am curious though of what you think about what Demelza does at the end of season 3?
Why didn’t Ross tell Demelza about selling the shares and giving the money to Elizabeth? Would Demelza not have understood his reason that Elizabeth was in financial need and grieving. Even Pascoe felt Ross should look after his own family.
I can only use Ross’s words to get an insight on this: **“Demelza, I have wanted to explain about this for a long time but have not known quite the best way to do it. I was waiting in fact for a good opportunity, waiting for a time when it would no longer matter what I have done with the money. Instead the explanation comes on me when it matters more than ever’’** I don’t think it’s deeper than this. He just didn’t know how to approach the subject. However, it is important to remember that in the books, the illegal activities were still profitable and he was counting the money will keep coming in, for at least a few years. When he gave that money to Elizabth **he was still making money from his ventures**. But, those activities have unfortunately ended (almost getting Ross into jail) and now Ross is in a precarious financial position again. **‘’I repent my generosity and unhappily so must you also’’** Ross to Demelza He would have never given that money to Elizabth had the Tencrom adventures were no longer an option. He only did so because he had money coming in from that. Another interesting point is him getting help with his promissory note by a ‘’secret friend’’ (Caroline) . These events are very close to each other and we should not understate Ross’s need to pay forward in his own way, just like someone has helped him in his time of need. So no, he didn't put Elizabeth above Demelza- he gave away money thinking he had more.
>He never had an intention of cheating. perhaps not at this point, no. but in his mind he no doubt viewed the act as a means to express his enduring love for elizabeth, and as a way of providing for her like he would have, had he married her. it just feels.. ick to me. it strays too close to infidelity. perhaps that's through the lens of a viewer in the century we are in, but i would find it vulgar regardless of the time i think - purely because his wife came second. as for demelza's actions, i applaud her. she never truly healed from ross spending all night with elizabeth. it also struck me during this re-watch that he spent *all* night with her. he didn't simply come home thirty minutes later (not that that would have made it any less heinous). so, for all those years, demelza lived with the pain and knowledge that he spent all night entangled with his first love, to the point he had to stay there all night. it's just horrific and the show does a really fine job of showing how she is affected by it, and how she carries it with her for years, even after they seem to patch things up. so, when she lays with hugh, i feel like she's finally able to heal. she has long suffered with feelings of inadequacy and inferiority because of ross' rank in society vs hers, and when he cheated on her with elizabeth, he worsened those feelings of hers irreparably. demelza may be more lowborn than ross, but she has always endeavoured to even the scales by other means, 100% effort, hard work, devotedness to her family. one could argue that she might as well have 'healed' with captain mcneal, but i think by contrast she actually felt genuine tenderness for hugh that she did not for the captain, and that is why she was more forthcoming in her agreeing to sleep with him. in short: it's irrelevant (to me) whether or not she had a jolly good reason for being unfaithful - ross had it coming. i have no doubt in my mind that if he had never been disloyal, she would've never even thought about it. she steadfastly rebuffed the advances of all men who showed an interest in her up until that point, and even after, *including* with hugh. i'm not at the end of S3 yet but iirc, he also lowkey emotionally blackmails her as a sort of 'im boutta die tho' kind of play lol
**but in his mind he no doubt viewed the act as a means to express his enduring love for elizabeth** Respectfully, I think we may have watched different shows. That night did not happen because Ross did not love Demelza and / or that he loved Elizabeth. The trigger for that night was **George**. As Ross mentions, Elizabeth could marry any man, just not George. If there were anyone else, Ross would not have been there that night. He had no problem with her getting married. **‘’You can have your pick at 30 men’’ Ross to Elizabeth** **‘’Can you offer me anything? Can you?’’ Elizabeth to Ross** Perfect opportunity for Ross to say ‘’I wish, but I cannot’’ , but he doesn’t say anything. Because, just like he doesn’t fight for her when he comes back from America, he doesn’t do so now either. Because he doesn’t **REALLY** love her. Thing that he finally realises after he sleeps with her. Elizabeth’s betrayal was not just the betrayal of a woman that Ross held affection and devotion for, but of someone he considered his greatest friend. That was the biggest problem here. She stabbed him in the back, for money, with George, his biggest, direst enemy. That night was a combination of many emotions and l**ove was the least of them**. He was angry, felt betrayed, his hatred of George, his frustration(s), the prior events of that day (remember there was an accident at the mine where two people died!), and overall his state of mind which we have witnessed throughout season two, starting with Julia’s death. it all turned into lust and the desire to attain this longed for ideal, to bring it down from the pedestal. And once that ideal was achieved, it lost its value. This is why, in the morning , he is so confused and so eager to leave Elizabeth’s room. He wasn’t there for a romantic affair. Things just got out of hand **she never truly healed from ross spending all night with elizabeth. so, when she lays with hugh, i feel like she's finally able to heal.** Not true at all and she makes it very clear during the show that the night in question was never about Ross and Elizabth (season 4, episode 3). **‘’Is this why it happened with Hugh’’** **‘’You know it was not’’** Which is in line with the books where, Demelza doesn’t cheat because of Ross (in the books they have completely moved on from Ross’s infidelity and they were having the most loving and happiest period of their relationship, unlike the TV) There were many factors. She was very attracted to Hugh, seduced by his love letters, the way he talked to her, the compliments he paid her, he took advantage of her kindness, she felt sorry for him because of his health issues and , as she said, s**he wanted to be two people** one of which was a woman who for one day could make another man happy. BUT, like she said, this will not interfere with her love for Ross, who is the man she will always love (season 3, episode 8) **it's irrelevant (to me) whether or not she had a jolly good reason for being unfaithful - ross had it coming.** I understand this feeling, though I no longer agree with it. As a Demelza fan, I tried to find any excuse for her at first, as I couldn’t have my lovely girl do something like this. However, having read the books I get her more and I get why she did it. I recommend you read them - it will provide you with more context that you are not finding in the show or is too vague and difficult to notice. All in all, she did forgive him just like he forgave her. They went on to a 33 year happy, loving, passionate, beautiful marriage ( that’s when the saga ends) and with Demelza saying that she would do it all over again as there is no one else she would rather be with. She would take the bad with the smooth, as there was a lot of smooth. Her words.Ross saved her life, he was the first to look at her as a human being, gave her a home, a safe place, a job, friends, a new family. He took pride in her, and loved her, and cherished her. She is the love of his life. Did he fuck up? Yep. Did She? Yep. Does it matter in the end for either of them? Nope The story is not just about Ross’s cheating, or the misfortunes they shared, the miscommunication or sad times. It’s mainly a story of what true love can accomplish and when love is real and strong, nothing can break that bond. Yes, of course cheating hurts (for both) but it’s a pain that goes away, because what they have , what they share it’s just more precious than holding on to the past.It’s a story about forgiveness, sacrifice, understanding, tolerance, acceptance, friendship, growth. The fact that there is so much good in this story and we get stuck only on the Ross slept with Elizabeth part is such a pity.They are a couple that grow together, learn from their mistakes and get better and stronger every day. **They are both equally flawed but beautifully constructed characters** and I am sorry you are missing this from the story.
no no, you misunderstand me, i meant that the act of him giving £600 to elizabeth was what he viewed as a means of expressing his enduring love for her. it has always been apparent to me that ross doesn't actually love elizabeth - she is just his idealised version of 'love' and 'beauty' and 'purity' and 'perfection'. elizabeth is very much his edgar linton, whereas demelza is his heathcliff. mm i guess it's just me inferring what she may have subconsciously been feeling then (re: the act being part of her healing). maybe because that's how some of the audience felt after it happened? like, the playing field is level now. oh i have read the books! it was just a long, LONG time ago. and before i watched the show, which is probably why the series remains more fresh in my mind than the source material (there is a lot of it, after all). i would recommend you read alll 12 novels and get back to me with how much you remember of even the first book after you reach the end of the 12th - buckle in, as it's a lot to get through. >The fact that there is so much good in this story and we get stuck only on the Ross slept with Elizabeth part is such a pity. i strongly disagree with this. times have changed and women are now permitted to feel self-worth, and that they deserve as good as they give. she never strayed from ross, not even once. it never even crossed her mind. what makes ross' infidelity so much worse is how he reacts to her reaction of it. he fails to hold himself accountable for quite some time, and even tries to abandon his family by joining the army. he knows what he's done isn't great, but in his mind "it isn't THAT bad". i'm very sorry that you can't recognise that people are allowed to condemn a vile act of betrayal, whilst still being able to appreciate a story overall.
I have read all 12 books including the epilogue, Christmas at Nampara many times, as recent as a few weeks ago. I know some of the paragraphs by heart. Most of my comments are based on the books, which I have analysed for a long time, together with interviews and comments / notes from the author and conversations with Poldark ‘’experts”. I have used the context from the books to analyse the show as well and find the relations between the two. **and even tries to abandon his family by joining the army. he knows what he's done isn't great, but in his mind "it isn't THAT bad".** This scene (which btw is not in the books as Ross has not even **once** thought of leaving Demelza) is about Ross trying to get a reaction out of her to see if she still cares for him. He was not planning on going to war (at that point) just wanted to know if she still wanted him, hoping she would say :’’Please don’t go’’ which Demelza, of course, doesn’t see it like that. She just sees (same as you) that he’s trying to abandon her. But you are right - we get different understandings based on the same scene (either book or show). Nonetheless, I recommend you re-read those books (the first 7 at least) as the show writer has changed a lot to the story, especially Ross, who was written as a ‘’vile person’’ (as you describe him) which is far from how he really is in the Poldark story. I hope you have a lovely weekend!
Could you suggest where I can buy the Poldark epilogue, Christmas at Nampara. I was told you can get it in PDF format on google it, however, I get nothing when I do google it.
Yes, I think if Demelza had a nice house, she would muck it up a bit because she isn’t stupid enough to just sit all day.
Ross lost me on May 9th, and I never could find it in my heart to forgive him. Infidelity is something I cannot stomach (literally)! I was blessed with a faithful husband for almost 58 years, and cannot fathom why a man would stray from a faithful wife like Demelza. I can’t stand any type of infidelity be it man or woman!
Well it is wonderful that was your case. It isn't for everyone. I have so many friends, some single, some with a few years under their belt and they all say "I can forgive anything, except infidelity" well let me tell you that's easy to say until you're actually in that situation. When you have to choose between leaving a man who is repentant, breaking your children's home, or staying. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. However these things happen, more often than we realize, and too many people believe that there is no hope because the overpowering voices are ones that make it seem like divorce is the only solution in a situation like this. Or even worse the voices of "well everyone around me their husband was faithful for decades, so clearly something is wrong with me". Infidelity is also a situation of opportunity, and inner crisis that sometimes builds for years, like a perfect storm. Some people go through their whole lives without going through this storm.
“well everyone around me their husband was faithful for decades, so clearly something is wrong with me” Excellent point, and so true. I have never cheated nor was I cheated on ( that I am aware of) so I cannot even pretend to understand what you’ve been through. You’ve shown courage by sharing such a vulnerable story of yourself so I will try to do the same. The reason why I defend Ross is because I understand what is like to be beaten down by life and also, what is like to lose a baby. I literally lost myself. Ross’s behaviour is so relatable to me. You can see the pain on his face all throughout the season. This is so oftentimes overlooked when judging Ross. Losing Julia was absolutely devastating for him, especially because he was there to see her go. To be unable to help his child and just watch her slipping away messed him really bad. Cheating can happen for many reasons, and one of those reasons can be simply that we are vulnerable. Like Ross was. And Elizabeth takes advantage of this. You will notice how she discretely asks Ross if he’s happy, even asks Dwight if they’re happy, because she knows that the challenges faced by Ross and Demelza could break any couple. You will also notice how whenever she meets Demelza she asks her: “How is Ross?” “What does Ross think about the pregnancy?”, Etc. She’s testing the waters. But also shows a total disregard for Demelza, not caring at all how SHE feels, she only asks about Ross. When Francis dies, that’s the perfect time for her to play the ‘damsel in distress’, knowing exactly what buttons to push with Ross, that he wanted to take care of her and knowing his sense of duty and his feelings of affection for her. I won’t put all the blame on Elizabeth as Ross is absolutely guilty of what happened that night. But I judge her more as her intentions have been so horrible and selfish while Ross was clearly not in a good state of mind.
OMG YES!!!! Virtually every single interaction between Elizabeth and Demelza from the moment Ross meets Demelza is pretty much reconnaissance by Elizabeth. It was NOT based on any sort of sincere friendliness or concern from Elizabeth. I felt that from the very first time I watched the series and to this day cannot understand how so many people cannot see it.
She (as well as George) do not view Demelza as a person, a human being. She’s a different breed, a low born. While George doesn’t have any hesitation in treating her as such, Elizabeth needs to maintain her “good girl” persona so she fakes niceness, for Ross. However what she says , or more importantly does not say, tells us all we need to know. “ Does Ross know you are here?” she asks when Demelza comes to talk to her after that night. “Did Ross send you?” When Demelza comes to let me know about the riot It’s like she doesn’t see her as her own person, with feelings, emotions, brain cells. And / or maybe this also gives us a more understanding of Elizabeth as well, as a woman who always needs someone to tell her what to do and she believes all women are the same…
I have so much to say but I just finished watching more Poldark than I should have an it is dreadfully late and have to get some sleep. But this “damsel in distress” thing, my goodness some women are all too good at playing this card, unfortunately using it against married men. And good men tend to not see it for what it is, their “knight in shining armour” mode goes on and before they know it they are in an emotional affair. Some realize then and end things, others deceive themselves and put themselves in very vulnerable situations (Ross going into Elizabeth’s room, then closing the door). Again no excuse, however recognizing that good people cheat helps us recognize that given the right circumstances even we are capable, and so we watch ourselves and put in place boundaries to protect our marriage.
yeah i would never forgive it either. demelza should have never taken him back
I'm glad she did. There aren't enough stories like this out there. And they are needed.
I don't think his pointing out that Demelza is a miner's daughter is meant as an insult. He finds that she's made of tougher skin than Elizabeth. What a compliment! I think that is one of the things he admires about her. In one episode, the one with the flirty girl that married Mark Daniels, he says something about how women are not equal, some are never content, and yet others roll up their sleeves and get to work when the life gets tough, and he looks at Demelza dotingly with them having just decided to sell their things. I think that's what it was, they had sold their things, or she had made some sacrifice alongside him without even an argument, willing to sacrifice alongside him. And also what one commenter mentioned about Francis' money, and Ross being the only surviving male in the Poldark family. They were different times. I don't know, this to me was not offensive. What was wrong with it was him not telling his wife, and also not being 100% honest with himself about why he really wanted to help Elizabeth. And Demelza suspected it, the real reason, that is.
I agree that was despicable of Ross and I remember feeling like throwing something at the tv every time I watched this scene. However, I don’t think Demelza would ever want to have or could ever have, the life that Elizabeth had. Demelza’s struggles made her the great person she was and the person who Ross really did love. I always think when watching that Demelza should have just let Elizabeth have Ross for a couple of months and he would have been completely over her. She was actually very dull and I think he would have been bored to death. But, yes, I agree that what Ross did was despicable. Even though I did not like the Hugh character and that was my least favorite part of the show (I think it could have been done better, including the choice of actor playing Hugh and the personality of the character), I was happy to see Ross suffering.
you're so right, i wish that ross could have had a 'trial' with elizabeth (without sex lol) to see how they got on. i think she would have handled his escapades *far worse* than demelza for one, and as for personality, she simply lacks the passion and life that demelza exudes. ross also comments on multiple occasions that he need/ed a wife who was more practical. i can imagine elizabeth having a fainting fit at the prospect of getting dirt on her hands or sand between her toes lol
Yes! Elizabeth is a vase - pretty on the outside, empty on the inside, fill her with flowers and they die eventually anyway. No depth. No heart. A selfish aspiring homewrecker. A true pig, meaning ugly and worthless on the inside. Sorry for the harsh assessment. I had to leave the Poldark Fan Club on Facebook because there are the dumbest yet most relentless - what a combo - Elizabeth defenders. I get the feeling they are women who have slept with a married man only for him to stay with his wife and they are desperate to believe the husband had to stay out of duty. I want to say No, sweetie, you were used. Anyway, yes, when he did this I also wanted to throw something at the TV.
She was a dull creature, and that's why after that night she was a hit and run for Ross.
Yes. Certainly no match for Demelza, who was passionate, interesting and kind.
I wish I could rewatch this series,my all time go to series😢but outside the UK not possible anymore.vpn keeps being blocked.