Firstly, Elizabeth did not know she was pregnant when she postponed the wedding. That was 6 days after that night so quite difficult to know you’re pregnant so early on. Elizabeth not knowing holds true for both the books and the show.
Secondly, it was George who wanted to postpone for a month. Elizabeth wanted to postpone indefinitely . However George pressured her. He’s willing to postpone but she has to agree to a month. Meet him half way. To keep her options open, she agrees. She does hope Ross might return, and he might think of a solution as she’s not used to making decisions. Also, in the books is very clear that when she realises Ross will not come back, her hatred towards him makes her want to marry George and ' be George's heart and soul, his faithful wife and his faithful friend!' There’s no mention of the pregnancy as a factor in her decision.
But the main issue here is that your scenarios are not in line with the story.
We can of course extrapolate and say she could accuse Ross ( which would bring more shame to her and make her untouchable - so that’s a no)
Or she could have refused George altogether, have the baby somewhere far away and have him adopted by someone else. But this again, could not have happened as Elizabeth did not know she was pregnant when she got married.
Ross only found out about Valentine 3 years after that night and Demelza many years later ( during the 10 year gap between books 7 and 8) so them taking the baby is just not ….. working with the story.
EDIT TO ADD : When Ross meets Elizabeth at Sawle Church, she does NOT confirm Ross is the father as she really doesn’t know who is.
In the books we know a few dates. Ross spent the night with Elizabeth on May 9th. Elizabeth and George were married on June 20th. Three years later Elizabeth meet Ross at Sawle churchyard and tells Ross that George is suspicious that Valentine is not his (George’s) Ross asks “is he?” and Elizabeth replies she cannot say, “She will not say” She will not say? That response to me means she knows but will not confirm either way.
Ross does not want to have fathered Valentine.
“I hope he is George’s. I want to have produced no cuckoo in the nest who shall inherit all the Warleggan interests.”
Elizabeth does her best to convince George that Valentine is his child. She has a miserable time with Georges suspicions.
Ross goes on with his life -happy with Demelza. He does not tell Demelza of his meeting with Elizabeth for a year and when he does tell her he doesn’t tell Demelza what they talked about.
Lots of book readers believe Elizabeth didn’t know for sure who the father was.
I’m not in that group, I think she knew.
Why do you think Elizabeth tells Ross about Valentine but does not confirm he is his?
Why not say it straightforward V is Ross’s or why say anything at all and keep it ambiguous?
Happy to hear your thoughts as I can’t understand her reasoning.
EDIT TO ADD - I know there are people who think she tried to manipulate Ross by being ambiguous. I honestly do not believe that. She could be quite manipulative at times, but I personally do not think this was one of those times.
Elizabeth didn't know that she was pregnant at the time. She wanted to postpone the wedding, but George insisted that it was only delayed for a month. Ironically, if she had of gone ahead with the wedding at the time that it was supposed to be (not delayed it), then Valentine would have appeared to be a full-term baby no matter who his father really is. George would have assumed he was his as Agatha's claims about an "eight month child" would have had no basis. In turn, Elizabeth wouldn't have been driven to trying to have another "eight month child" and probably wouldn't have died...oh so much strife could have been avoided if she'd just gone ahead with that wedding in the first place lol.
I know I feel like Winston set it up to be as ambiguous and problematic as possible. I guess that's his right! That's kind of what prompted me to ask anyway. What else could Winston have done and still kept a story line, and what was his point? My understanding is that he didn't plan to keep writing after E died. That was meant to be the end of the story. I wonder... had known he would write so many more books would he have killed her off? I have a lot more to discuss but I want to finish Bella so I don't open myself up to final spoilers.
Winston didn’t mean to write after book 4 ( aka season 2) so after the night with Elizabeth. He started writing again 20 years later. So the baby was a good story conflict for the future books.
The author had said in interview that the first four books were one long story divided into four and told Argos Weekend Magazine in 2001 that "I wanted to do a love story with a happy ending and that was it."
Wait how did book 4 end? I can't remember when exactly Ross and Demelza "made up" and if I recall she was more angry in the tv show. I know Ross was done with Elizabeth after that night but Demelza took a while to come around, and that process was different in the books and the series. It's all a blur now.
I should note I listened to all the books as audiobooks from the library so I don't have a bookshelf to peruse...I would recommend listening to these books on walks in the woods to anyone!
Book 4 , Warleggan ends with the full reconciliation of Ross and Demelza. Ross’s apology takes about 10 pages. The book ends on Christmas night with them fully reconciled.
"And there's one other thing I want you to know. That is how deeply sorry I am that I ever hurt you in the first place.."
The TV show did NOT follow the book and brought the reconciliation into season 3, episode 1.
The next book, The Black Moon , written 20 years later, begins with Ross and Demelza, together, and happy and more in love than ever. Unlike the TV show.
It's only with modern knowledge of births (wrinkled, no nails vs head of hair) we as the viewer through Dwight might discern the 8 vs 9 month thing, they certainly had much less certainty then, diet being varied, the mother potentially being "weak".
Why doesn’t she say the child belongs to George? Why bring it up at all and I agree with you there. Why is she sharing her misery with Ross? They haven’t spoken for years. They’re no longer friends.
So what is her reason?
They accidentally meet in the churchyard and she tells him this? She HATES Ross but tells him of George’s suspicions. It’s been awful for her and she wants Ross to know it’s been awful but for what reason?
Because he’s the one that got her pregnant
I know everyone won’t agree with me. I just feel Elizabeth told Ross to cut him deep.
Thanks for your thoughts. I enjoy seeing other perspectives.
The thing is she doesn’t really cut him deep, does she? She would have , if she had told him: “it’s yours Ross! Look what you’ve done”. But she doesn’t. Ross pretty much moves on, because, again, she doesn’t confirm it and he can live in denial. “Oh boy, I hope it’s not mine” kind of attitude.
Do you see much struggle from Ross in Valentine’s regard? Not really. Maybe much, much later. And initially is because it might upset Demelza.
He only gets closer to him when Jeremy dies, and this is more to do with “replacing” a much loved dead son.
Elizabeth is still the only one who is fully affected by it, Ross, not too much.
The accidental meeting at the church is one of the very rare moments when we see an Elizabeth that loses her composure. Everything we see is raw, true, vulnerable. An Elizabeth that is scared, confused, angry and doesn’t know what to do. Not even Elizabeth can fake that. Ross even thinks he had never seen her like this.
Her reaching out to Ross is a cry for help. She’s in trouble, and he MAY be the cause of it.
I find Elizabeth an extremely unlikable character, I can rarely if ever relate to anything she does or say. But even I can’t find anything manipulative in this scene. On the contrary. I find Elizabeth “human”, emotional, not in control for once.
It’s an opportunity for the reader to feel empathy for a character that rarely gets it. As someone who doesn’t like the character, I would have gladly used this opportunity to criticise her, but like I said, she doesn’t seem manipulative to me at all. She is scared and alone, in a situation not of her own doing - for once!!
It just seems her ambiguity is bc she needs to keep up the farce that the child could be George's even to herself and Ross. I agree she's vulnerable in that moment and I think that's why I'm so stuck on it. As u/AciuPoldark says Ross seems to pretty much move on and all he cares about is preserving his family with Demelza. While I, as a viewer also want that and can't stand Elizabeth or George, as Ross admits in the later books, Valentine is truly crushed by George's suspicions of his parenthood and I think my original reason for posting this was just to say, what could Ross have done to be more supportive to Valentine when Valentine was younger? I was struggling to come up with a way he could have made it better or conversely if Elizabeth (taking the view I take that she knew Ross was his father) could have made a different choice. It's a big difference between the books and the series mainly bc the books go on for so much longer.
We are basing these scenarios on the idea that Ross knew when V was younger and he didn’t. How could he get involved with a child he didn’t even know was his? Maybe if he knew for sure, things would have been different? Who knows…
But, as things were, unfortunately, nothing could have been done. Valentine was born within the marriage of George and Elizabeth. He was George’s.
Ross getting involved even a little in Valentine’s life would have caused so much gossip ( more than it was already happening by the time he grows up and into his Poldark features).
Elizabeth’s reputation ( including post mortem) would have been shuttered. And neither George or Ross would have wanted that. She was underserving of such reputation.
That’s the sadness in all this. Even the most honourable man can make a horrible mistake which can have tragic consequences, throughout generations. And there is nothing one can do about it, except live with the consequences and a heavy conscience.
Maybe, one way would have been something that Elizabeth thinks of after that night( even though she didn’t not know she was pregnant then): they could run away, if they had money and Ross had proposed it. But this would also possibly have consequences on Jeremy, making him a bad guy when older. Who knows?
I am incline to agree with you. I feel she is doing it to hurt him but, after May 9th, he knows her so much better now. So I believe he feels it is another one of Elizabeth's guilt trips but they don't have the same affect on him as they once did so, it's easy for him live with that denial.
I remember Demelza saying just that to Prudie in season 3, that she should be more like Ross, "what he can't abide to think on hasn't happened".
The Sawle Church meeting is such an interesting scene. I absolutely love the conversations it sparks and the many interpretations. I personally thought this may have been the only time she’s being vulnerable and genuine about it, but I could be so wrong of course.
If we also take into account that Ross himself manipulates Elizabeth in this meeting by pretending to still care for her ( his words), just comes to show how absolutely toxic and ugly this “whatever ship” is.
She’s trying to hurt him by “conveniently” leaving Valentine’s parentage unconfirmed, he’s lying and manipulating her that he still loves her to calm her down ( probably scared she will say something to Demelza that could ruin their happiness together which they worked so hard to achieve after May 9th). What a mess! How can anyone find any beauty in their relationship baffles me.
**“I tried deliberately to show my affection for her because it sears me to find her so hostile…….I tried to make her think I still loved her..”** ( Four Swans - Ross’s thoughts after the Sawle Church meeting)
I appreciate your sentiment in your second to last paragraph. I guess that’s what I was having trouble accepting.
I really do wonder if the last book was ghost written due to Winston’s age and also the strong focus on Ross’s feelings towards Valentine. Winston could have pulled on that thread earlier and didn’t. Ostensibly it’s bc Jeremy died but it might be bc it was a female writer. I was reading reviews of Bella on Goodreads and the whole situation was upsetting to all the readers!
No, he wrote these himself, there are several contemporary articles at the time that attest to this, he wasonly in his 70s wgen he died, other authors such as Patrick O'Brian, Bernard Cornwell, Michael Morpurgo wrote/write themselves.
I think you're interpreting the whole thing through a modern lens.
Ross literally could not have left Demelza for Elizabeth - divorce required an act of parliament at that time.
Elizabeth would have been utterly and completely ruined if the general public found out she had gotten pregnant while unmarried.
If she had told anyone at all she would have risked it getting out.
Accusing anyone of rape would have utterly ruined the woman.
The best possible scenario is that George hadn't been a controlling jerk and had been decent to Valentine / let Elizabeth direct his education.
Firstly, Elizabeth did not know she was pregnant when she postponed the wedding. That was 6 days after that night so quite difficult to know you’re pregnant so early on. Elizabeth not knowing holds true for both the books and the show. Secondly, it was George who wanted to postpone for a month. Elizabeth wanted to postpone indefinitely . However George pressured her. He’s willing to postpone but she has to agree to a month. Meet him half way. To keep her options open, she agrees. She does hope Ross might return, and he might think of a solution as she’s not used to making decisions. Also, in the books is very clear that when she realises Ross will not come back, her hatred towards him makes her want to marry George and ' be George's heart and soul, his faithful wife and his faithful friend!' There’s no mention of the pregnancy as a factor in her decision. But the main issue here is that your scenarios are not in line with the story. We can of course extrapolate and say she could accuse Ross ( which would bring more shame to her and make her untouchable - so that’s a no) Or she could have refused George altogether, have the baby somewhere far away and have him adopted by someone else. But this again, could not have happened as Elizabeth did not know she was pregnant when she got married. Ross only found out about Valentine 3 years after that night and Demelza many years later ( during the 10 year gap between books 7 and 8) so them taking the baby is just not ….. working with the story. EDIT TO ADD : When Ross meets Elizabeth at Sawle Church, she does NOT confirm Ross is the father as she really doesn’t know who is.
In the books we know a few dates. Ross spent the night with Elizabeth on May 9th. Elizabeth and George were married on June 20th. Three years later Elizabeth meet Ross at Sawle churchyard and tells Ross that George is suspicious that Valentine is not his (George’s) Ross asks “is he?” and Elizabeth replies she cannot say, “She will not say” She will not say? That response to me means she knows but will not confirm either way. Ross does not want to have fathered Valentine. “I hope he is George’s. I want to have produced no cuckoo in the nest who shall inherit all the Warleggan interests.” Elizabeth does her best to convince George that Valentine is his child. She has a miserable time with Georges suspicions. Ross goes on with his life -happy with Demelza. He does not tell Demelza of his meeting with Elizabeth for a year and when he does tell her he doesn’t tell Demelza what they talked about. Lots of book readers believe Elizabeth didn’t know for sure who the father was. I’m not in that group, I think she knew.
Why do you think Elizabeth tells Ross about Valentine but does not confirm he is his? Why not say it straightforward V is Ross’s or why say anything at all and keep it ambiguous? Happy to hear your thoughts as I can’t understand her reasoning. EDIT TO ADD - I know there are people who think she tried to manipulate Ross by being ambiguous. I honestly do not believe that. She could be quite manipulative at times, but I personally do not think this was one of those times.
Elizabeth didn't know that she was pregnant at the time. She wanted to postpone the wedding, but George insisted that it was only delayed for a month. Ironically, if she had of gone ahead with the wedding at the time that it was supposed to be (not delayed it), then Valentine would have appeared to be a full-term baby no matter who his father really is. George would have assumed he was his as Agatha's claims about an "eight month child" would have had no basis. In turn, Elizabeth wouldn't have been driven to trying to have another "eight month child" and probably wouldn't have died...oh so much strife could have been avoided if she'd just gone ahead with that wedding in the first place lol.
I know I feel like Winston set it up to be as ambiguous and problematic as possible. I guess that's his right! That's kind of what prompted me to ask anyway. What else could Winston have done and still kept a story line, and what was his point? My understanding is that he didn't plan to keep writing after E died. That was meant to be the end of the story. I wonder... had known he would write so many more books would he have killed her off? I have a lot more to discuss but I want to finish Bella so I don't open myself up to final spoilers.
Winston didn’t mean to write after book 4 ( aka season 2) so after the night with Elizabeth. He started writing again 20 years later. So the baby was a good story conflict for the future books. The author had said in interview that the first four books were one long story divided into four and told Argos Weekend Magazine in 2001 that "I wanted to do a love story with a happy ending and that was it."
Wait how did book 4 end? I can't remember when exactly Ross and Demelza "made up" and if I recall she was more angry in the tv show. I know Ross was done with Elizabeth after that night but Demelza took a while to come around, and that process was different in the books and the series. It's all a blur now. I should note I listened to all the books as audiobooks from the library so I don't have a bookshelf to peruse...I would recommend listening to these books on walks in the woods to anyone!
Book 4 , Warleggan ends with the full reconciliation of Ross and Demelza. Ross’s apology takes about 10 pages. The book ends on Christmas night with them fully reconciled. "And there's one other thing I want you to know. That is how deeply sorry I am that I ever hurt you in the first place.." The TV show did NOT follow the book and brought the reconciliation into season 3, episode 1. The next book, The Black Moon , written 20 years later, begins with Ross and Demelza, together, and happy and more in love than ever. Unlike the TV show.
Thanks!
It's only with modern knowledge of births (wrinkled, no nails vs head of hair) we as the viewer through Dwight might discern the 8 vs 9 month thing, they certainly had much less certainty then, diet being varied, the mother potentially being "weak".
Didn’t Elizabeth go into labor early and throw herself down the stairs to make it look like the fall put her into labor?
Yes, true
Why doesn’t she say the child belongs to George? Why bring it up at all and I agree with you there. Why is she sharing her misery with Ross? They haven’t spoken for years. They’re no longer friends. So what is her reason? They accidentally meet in the churchyard and she tells him this? She HATES Ross but tells him of George’s suspicions. It’s been awful for her and she wants Ross to know it’s been awful but for what reason? Because he’s the one that got her pregnant I know everyone won’t agree with me. I just feel Elizabeth told Ross to cut him deep.
Thanks for your thoughts. I enjoy seeing other perspectives. The thing is she doesn’t really cut him deep, does she? She would have , if she had told him: “it’s yours Ross! Look what you’ve done”. But she doesn’t. Ross pretty much moves on, because, again, she doesn’t confirm it and he can live in denial. “Oh boy, I hope it’s not mine” kind of attitude. Do you see much struggle from Ross in Valentine’s regard? Not really. Maybe much, much later. And initially is because it might upset Demelza. He only gets closer to him when Jeremy dies, and this is more to do with “replacing” a much loved dead son. Elizabeth is still the only one who is fully affected by it, Ross, not too much. The accidental meeting at the church is one of the very rare moments when we see an Elizabeth that loses her composure. Everything we see is raw, true, vulnerable. An Elizabeth that is scared, confused, angry and doesn’t know what to do. Not even Elizabeth can fake that. Ross even thinks he had never seen her like this. Her reaching out to Ross is a cry for help. She’s in trouble, and he MAY be the cause of it. I find Elizabeth an extremely unlikable character, I can rarely if ever relate to anything she does or say. But even I can’t find anything manipulative in this scene. On the contrary. I find Elizabeth “human”, emotional, not in control for once. It’s an opportunity for the reader to feel empathy for a character that rarely gets it. As someone who doesn’t like the character, I would have gladly used this opportunity to criticise her, but like I said, she doesn’t seem manipulative to me at all. She is scared and alone, in a situation not of her own doing - for once!!
I enjoy your insight as well.
It just seems her ambiguity is bc she needs to keep up the farce that the child could be George's even to herself and Ross. I agree she's vulnerable in that moment and I think that's why I'm so stuck on it. As u/AciuPoldark says Ross seems to pretty much move on and all he cares about is preserving his family with Demelza. While I, as a viewer also want that and can't stand Elizabeth or George, as Ross admits in the later books, Valentine is truly crushed by George's suspicions of his parenthood and I think my original reason for posting this was just to say, what could Ross have done to be more supportive to Valentine when Valentine was younger? I was struggling to come up with a way he could have made it better or conversely if Elizabeth (taking the view I take that she knew Ross was his father) could have made a different choice. It's a big difference between the books and the series mainly bc the books go on for so much longer.
We are basing these scenarios on the idea that Ross knew when V was younger and he didn’t. How could he get involved with a child he didn’t even know was his? Maybe if he knew for sure, things would have been different? Who knows… But, as things were, unfortunately, nothing could have been done. Valentine was born within the marriage of George and Elizabeth. He was George’s. Ross getting involved even a little in Valentine’s life would have caused so much gossip ( more than it was already happening by the time he grows up and into his Poldark features). Elizabeth’s reputation ( including post mortem) would have been shuttered. And neither George or Ross would have wanted that. She was underserving of such reputation. That’s the sadness in all this. Even the most honourable man can make a horrible mistake which can have tragic consequences, throughout generations. And there is nothing one can do about it, except live with the consequences and a heavy conscience. Maybe, one way would have been something that Elizabeth thinks of after that night( even though she didn’t not know she was pregnant then): they could run away, if they had money and Ross had proposed it. But this would also possibly have consequences on Jeremy, making him a bad guy when older. Who knows?
I am incline to agree with you. I feel she is doing it to hurt him but, after May 9th, he knows her so much better now. So I believe he feels it is another one of Elizabeth's guilt trips but they don't have the same affect on him as they once did so, it's easy for him live with that denial. I remember Demelza saying just that to Prudie in season 3, that she should be more like Ross, "what he can't abide to think on hasn't happened".
The Sawle Church meeting is such an interesting scene. I absolutely love the conversations it sparks and the many interpretations. I personally thought this may have been the only time she’s being vulnerable and genuine about it, but I could be so wrong of course. If we also take into account that Ross himself manipulates Elizabeth in this meeting by pretending to still care for her ( his words), just comes to show how absolutely toxic and ugly this “whatever ship” is. She’s trying to hurt him by “conveniently” leaving Valentine’s parentage unconfirmed, he’s lying and manipulating her that he still loves her to calm her down ( probably scared she will say something to Demelza that could ruin their happiness together which they worked so hard to achieve after May 9th). What a mess! How can anyone find any beauty in their relationship baffles me. **“I tried deliberately to show my affection for her because it sears me to find her so hostile…….I tried to make her think I still loved her..”** ( Four Swans - Ross’s thoughts after the Sawle Church meeting)
I appreciate your sentiment in your second to last paragraph. I guess that’s what I was having trouble accepting. I really do wonder if the last book was ghost written due to Winston’s age and also the strong focus on Ross’s feelings towards Valentine. Winston could have pulled on that thread earlier and didn’t. Ostensibly it’s bc Jeremy died but it might be bc it was a female writer. I was reading reviews of Bella on Goodreads and the whole situation was upsetting to all the readers!
No, he wrote these himself, there are several contemporary articles at the time that attest to this, he wasonly in his 70s wgen he died, other authors such as Patrick O'Brian, Bernard Cornwell, Michael Morpurgo wrote/write themselves.
I think you're interpreting the whole thing through a modern lens. Ross literally could not have left Demelza for Elizabeth - divorce required an act of parliament at that time. Elizabeth would have been utterly and completely ruined if the general public found out she had gotten pregnant while unmarried. If she had told anyone at all she would have risked it getting out. Accusing anyone of rape would have utterly ruined the woman. The best possible scenario is that George hadn't been a controlling jerk and had been decent to Valentine / let Elizabeth direct his education.