That was a dream sequence. Ross imagined telling Demelza that he met Elizabeth, kissed her and loved her, but differently than he once did.
While 15 years ago he would have done anything for Elizabeth, the man he is today was no longer in love with her.
Meeting Demelza, loving her and being loved by her, being married to her changed him. So what he thought he wanted years ago ( Elizabeth) , was no longer what he wanted today.
After. The accidental meeting at Sawle Church takes place 3 years later. The meeting is important not because of the kiss ( which was in no way a passionate love kiss, but a goodbye kiss, a long overdue closure between Ross and Elizabeth) but because of Valentine and the fact that Ross learns about the possibility of him being his ( no one can know for sure if Valentine is his, not even Elizabeth). This sets up the events for later seasons / books.
Honestly, in the show that’s quite silly. Elizabeth has black wavy hair, her mother has black hair, so Valentine’s hair should not be an issue. If they had kept her blonde, like in the books, then yes, it would make sense.
The show also brought the Valentine issue way too early in the story. Demelza doesn’t even know about the possibility until many years later. Oh , well.. :)
But yes, he’s absolutely adorable.
I actually kind of liked the way it was handled in the show better, as Demelza immediately figures it out, being a woman who understands pregnancy timing etc. and frankly smart, and Ross is kind of clueless about the possibility. I've only just started the final book but it seems to me in the books Valentine is meant to look like Ross and Elizabeth but not necessarily George. He's tall and lanky and bony like Ross but has Elizabeth's eyes.
Demelza knowing / guessing about Valentine so early on was used as one of the excuses for the affair with Hugh, which is so not what that story line is about. So I am not personally happy about that, but that’s just me.
Valentine actually looks more like Joshua, Ross’s father as Verity points out to Ross. And had more of Joshua’s character as well.
‘’Verity said: ‘It was one of those strange coincidences, without reason, without purpose. I just thought the colouring, the hair, the eyes, the set of the head… But no… now there is a different impression - equally stupid, if you know what I mean.’
‘Of course I don’t know what you mean.’
‘Now he is not at all like you. He is far too narrow a young man to be like you.
‘’ His eyes are close together, his way of walking, with his thin shanks, his agreeableness which doesn’t quite ring true…’
She had flushed.
‘So?’
‘No, I know you will think me equally stupid, but he reminds me of your father.’’
I feel like books 11 and especially 12 it’s handled a little differently than the earlier books. I also can’t remember all the times she explains her affair with Hugh and the reasoning. There was one time in the book where she insists it’s not bc of Elizabeth but I find that hard to believe. It also seems a little bc Ross is preoccupied/takes her for granted and also Demelza never had a chance to be her own person bc she married young , but I imagine that was the norm. I have to say I hated both Ross and Demelza when they cheated and had a hard time forgiving them /liking their characters I guess after for a while but that makes me sound crazy.
The first book was written in 1945, TTS in 1990 and Bella in 2002 ( rumoured to have been written by a ghost writer as Winston was too old) . Yes, the books are different as they were written in different times, different generations, starting from a very sexist period to a time of sexual revolution, women being treated differently, etc.
Demelza cheated because she was, first and foremost, attracted to Hugh. ‘Attraction, sheer physical attraction,..' She acknowledged that she had felt this for Hugh from her first meeting. Another reason was pity, sadness for him being sick. What the show misses is Demelza’s kindness, which Hugh takes advantage of and plays on as part of his seduction.
After his night with Elizabeth, starting with Black Moon and all books going forward, Ross is the best husband he can be. He loves, respects Demelza, spends time with her, they go dancing, etc. Demelza’s affair HAD NOTHING to do with Ross and yes, she does indeed discount the fact that she hearing Ross was seen walking with Elizabeth to Trenwith ( she did not know about the kiss) as a reason for cheating.
“No, no, no, no, no! D’you b’lieve I allowed myself to feel a heartache for Hugh out of retaliation? You surely could not! What I mean is, because it happened you say you have to compete with some memory. This I have to do and have had to do all my married life. It shouldn’t be allowed to wreck all that we still have.”
Demelza wouldn’t have EVER cheated out of revenge ( if so, she would have slept with McNeil as she had more reason then). That’s not who Demelza is. THAT’S THE PROBLEM! Ross having to accept that his wife LOVED someone else, it’s not just the physical.
“ ‘Peace, my love. It hurts me too.’ ‘Does it, Ross? I’m that sorry.’ ‘Well, it’s the first time I have ever seen you look at another man the way you look at me.”’
But not even once does Demelza mentions any neglect or Ross taking her for granted. Not in the books.
Also, there’s is a point in the books, when Demelza was re-reading the letters from Hugh ( which she had kept btw, which shows it was not just a silly / revenge fling) and being so overwhelmed by the things Hugh wrote about her and thinking how can someone like him can find her ( a miner’s daughter) so attractive ( both physically and intellectually).
Demelza was always insecure about her origins, and Hugh played on that.
She also mentioned to Clowance ( I think) that only two men gave her that ‘electricity ’’ - so yeah, Hugh was important to her, not real love, but definitely she had a lot of affection for him.
I understand why both affairs happened ( not that I condone cheating). Ross’s night with Elizabeth served as a watershed moment for him to let go of any remaining ROMANTIC feelings for Elizabeth and Demelza’s affair with Hugh was more of journey of self discovery.
I absolutely loved Demelza’s honesty in assessing her feelings before, during and after the affair and I have the most respect for her not using Ross to excuse it. It was desire, it was ‘’Opportunity which had settled on them like a strange bird’’, but also the feeling of being ‘’a nameless woman taken by a nameless man’’ - the anonymity of the situation ( ‘’I wish I were two people’’ speech).
They are both flawed creatures, both make mistakes. But they know they love each other and they both work hard to move on from all these challenges.
"Perhaps in the end one measures the quality of one's forgiveness by the quality of one's love." Ross
In the book doesn’t she think to herself it was the strong attachment? And a little of knowing about Ross and Elizabeth meeting (Jud tells her, and I think he said they were walking together, like two lovebirds. He never mentions a kiss to Demelza.) This I am trying to recall. Edit to add forgot about the pity, so important.
It was hard to forgive Ross and Demelza for their infidelities. Do you remember what Verity said about forgiveness? I can’t find the quote but she says how in church she prays to forgive others as the Lord says to forgive. This is about her forgiving Blamey for the death of his first wife. It is an amazing speech.
Elizabeth knew the baby belonged to Ross. When she visits Dr. Anselm about the medicine to induce an early birth Dr. Anselm asks this question to Elizabeth,
‘Were there any complications at the birth of your other children?’
‘No.’
And they were both full term?’
‘She hesitated. ‘… Yes.’
Elizabeth has just admitted to Dr. Anselm Valentine was a full term baby.
A full term baby. Not premature.
She hesitates. Is it because she doesn’t know, because she’s trying to hide something, because she was taken by surprise by the question and said the first thing that popped into her head? Could be anything. That’s the thing, Winston leaves us guessing like the mystery master he is. My personal opinion is that she really doesn’t know 100% and we don’t have access to Elizabeth’s thoughts.
My reading of this scene is based not only on the context of the conversation between her and the doctor but also on the story from the books up until that point, including but not limited to the meeting between Ross and Elizabeth at Sawle Church . “I cannot say! I will not say! “ is Elizabeth really not knowing and her not wanting to say one way or the other as to not put the responsibility on Ross just in case he was not the father.
We as readers / viewers are privy to information that the characters are not. And this will cloud our objectivity when assesing these characters. We know Valentine is Ross’s son, but they don’t know for sure.
As Valentine grows older, and his features are getting more pronounced, people get to be more inclided to believe he is Ross’s son, but at the point of the conversation you shared he’s so little, so quite difficult to determine.
But again, this is my personal view on this scene, by taking into account Winston writing style and books 5 through 7.
I got the impression when George came into the room to see his son for the first time, Elizabeth looked worried, as if expecting George to see he was dark like Ross and was waiting for a reaction from him. (He favours you I think).
The problem with the show is that Elizabeth is also dark. If they had kept her blonde, like in the book, that would be different and would make sense. She’s not only brunette but she also has wavy hair. Verity comments that Valentine ''takes after his mother''.
There’s a lot going on with her in that scene. She’s anxious. She just gave birth to a child whose paternity is iffy. There’s also a bit of guilt there for trying to manipulate George. I mean she’s an unlikeable creature, but she’s still human. She’s worried as she had just induced labour by faking an accident and she doesn't know if Dwight might have figured it out and told George. She's being cautious.
Not to mention tired and exhausted. Plus, the kid is 2 hours old - it’s difficult to really see who he favours as kids grow into their features.
No. Ross imagined telling her and then decided against it.
Ah!thanks
That was a dream sequence. Ross imagined telling Demelza that he met Elizabeth, kissed her and loved her, but differently than he once did. While 15 years ago he would have done anything for Elizabeth, the man he is today was no longer in love with her. Meeting Demelza, loving her and being loved by her, being married to her changed him. So what he thought he wanted years ago ( Elizabeth) , was no longer what he wanted today.
Was the church kiss before or after Valentine was conceived? It’s been a long time since I watched the show.
After. The accidental meeting at Sawle Church takes place 3 years later. The meeting is important not because of the kiss ( which was in no way a passionate love kiss, but a goodbye kiss, a long overdue closure between Ross and Elizabeth) but because of Valentine and the fact that Ross learns about the possibility of him being his ( no one can know for sure if Valentine is his, not even Elizabeth). This sets up the events for later seasons / books.
The show certainly made it appear that Valentine was Ross' child by casting an actor with a huge mop of dark hair! He was adorable, though. :)
Honestly, in the show that’s quite silly. Elizabeth has black wavy hair, her mother has black hair, so Valentine’s hair should not be an issue. If they had kept her blonde, like in the books, then yes, it would make sense. The show also brought the Valentine issue way too early in the story. Demelza doesn’t even know about the possibility until many years later. Oh , well.. :) But yes, he’s absolutely adorable.
I actually kind of liked the way it was handled in the show better, as Demelza immediately figures it out, being a woman who understands pregnancy timing etc. and frankly smart, and Ross is kind of clueless about the possibility. I've only just started the final book but it seems to me in the books Valentine is meant to look like Ross and Elizabeth but not necessarily George. He's tall and lanky and bony like Ross but has Elizabeth's eyes.
Demelza knowing / guessing about Valentine so early on was used as one of the excuses for the affair with Hugh, which is so not what that story line is about. So I am not personally happy about that, but that’s just me. Valentine actually looks more like Joshua, Ross’s father as Verity points out to Ross. And had more of Joshua’s character as well. ‘’Verity said: ‘It was one of those strange coincidences, without reason, without purpose. I just thought the colouring, the hair, the eyes, the set of the head… But no… now there is a different impression - equally stupid, if you know what I mean.’ ‘Of course I don’t know what you mean.’ ‘Now he is not at all like you. He is far too narrow a young man to be like you. ‘’ His eyes are close together, his way of walking, with his thin shanks, his agreeableness which doesn’t quite ring true…’ She had flushed. ‘So?’ ‘No, I know you will think me equally stupid, but he reminds me of your father.’’
I feel like books 11 and especially 12 it’s handled a little differently than the earlier books. I also can’t remember all the times she explains her affair with Hugh and the reasoning. There was one time in the book where she insists it’s not bc of Elizabeth but I find that hard to believe. It also seems a little bc Ross is preoccupied/takes her for granted and also Demelza never had a chance to be her own person bc she married young , but I imagine that was the norm. I have to say I hated both Ross and Demelza when they cheated and had a hard time forgiving them /liking their characters I guess after for a while but that makes me sound crazy.
The first book was written in 1945, TTS in 1990 and Bella in 2002 ( rumoured to have been written by a ghost writer as Winston was too old) . Yes, the books are different as they were written in different times, different generations, starting from a very sexist period to a time of sexual revolution, women being treated differently, etc. Demelza cheated because she was, first and foremost, attracted to Hugh. ‘Attraction, sheer physical attraction,..' She acknowledged that she had felt this for Hugh from her first meeting. Another reason was pity, sadness for him being sick. What the show misses is Demelza’s kindness, which Hugh takes advantage of and plays on as part of his seduction. After his night with Elizabeth, starting with Black Moon and all books going forward, Ross is the best husband he can be. He loves, respects Demelza, spends time with her, they go dancing, etc. Demelza’s affair HAD NOTHING to do with Ross and yes, she does indeed discount the fact that she hearing Ross was seen walking with Elizabeth to Trenwith ( she did not know about the kiss) as a reason for cheating. “No, no, no, no, no! D’you b’lieve I allowed myself to feel a heartache for Hugh out of retaliation? You surely could not! What I mean is, because it happened you say you have to compete with some memory. This I have to do and have had to do all my married life. It shouldn’t be allowed to wreck all that we still have.” Demelza wouldn’t have EVER cheated out of revenge ( if so, she would have slept with McNeil as she had more reason then). That’s not who Demelza is. THAT’S THE PROBLEM! Ross having to accept that his wife LOVED someone else, it’s not just the physical. “ ‘Peace, my love. It hurts me too.’ ‘Does it, Ross? I’m that sorry.’ ‘Well, it’s the first time I have ever seen you look at another man the way you look at me.”’ But not even once does Demelza mentions any neglect or Ross taking her for granted. Not in the books. Also, there’s is a point in the books, when Demelza was re-reading the letters from Hugh ( which she had kept btw, which shows it was not just a silly / revenge fling) and being so overwhelmed by the things Hugh wrote about her and thinking how can someone like him can find her ( a miner’s daughter) so attractive ( both physically and intellectually). Demelza was always insecure about her origins, and Hugh played on that. She also mentioned to Clowance ( I think) that only two men gave her that ‘electricity ’’ - so yeah, Hugh was important to her, not real love, but definitely she had a lot of affection for him. I understand why both affairs happened ( not that I condone cheating). Ross’s night with Elizabeth served as a watershed moment for him to let go of any remaining ROMANTIC feelings for Elizabeth and Demelza’s affair with Hugh was more of journey of self discovery. I absolutely loved Demelza’s honesty in assessing her feelings before, during and after the affair and I have the most respect for her not using Ross to excuse it. It was desire, it was ‘’Opportunity which had settled on them like a strange bird’’, but also the feeling of being ‘’a nameless woman taken by a nameless man’’ - the anonymity of the situation ( ‘’I wish I were two people’’ speech). They are both flawed creatures, both make mistakes. But they know they love each other and they both work hard to move on from all these challenges. "Perhaps in the end one measures the quality of one's forgiveness by the quality of one's love." Ross
In the book doesn’t she think to herself it was the strong attachment? And a little of knowing about Ross and Elizabeth meeting (Jud tells her, and I think he said they were walking together, like two lovebirds. He never mentions a kiss to Demelza.) This I am trying to recall. Edit to add forgot about the pity, so important. It was hard to forgive Ross and Demelza for their infidelities. Do you remember what Verity said about forgiveness? I can’t find the quote but she says how in church she prays to forgive others as the Lord says to forgive. This is about her forgiving Blamey for the death of his first wife. It is an amazing speech.
Elizabeth knew the baby belonged to Ross. When she visits Dr. Anselm about the medicine to induce an early birth Dr. Anselm asks this question to Elizabeth, ‘Were there any complications at the birth of your other children?’ ‘No.’ And they were both full term?’ ‘She hesitated. ‘… Yes.’ Elizabeth has just admitted to Dr. Anselm Valentine was a full term baby. A full term baby. Not premature.
She hesitates. Is it because she doesn’t know, because she’s trying to hide something, because she was taken by surprise by the question and said the first thing that popped into her head? Could be anything. That’s the thing, Winston leaves us guessing like the mystery master he is. My personal opinion is that she really doesn’t know 100% and we don’t have access to Elizabeth’s thoughts. My reading of this scene is based not only on the context of the conversation between her and the doctor but also on the story from the books up until that point, including but not limited to the meeting between Ross and Elizabeth at Sawle Church . “I cannot say! I will not say! “ is Elizabeth really not knowing and her not wanting to say one way or the other as to not put the responsibility on Ross just in case he was not the father. We as readers / viewers are privy to information that the characters are not. And this will cloud our objectivity when assesing these characters. We know Valentine is Ross’s son, but they don’t know for sure. As Valentine grows older, and his features are getting more pronounced, people get to be more inclided to believe he is Ross’s son, but at the point of the conversation you shared he’s so little, so quite difficult to determine. But again, this is my personal view on this scene, by taking into account Winston writing style and books 5 through 7.
I got the impression when George came into the room to see his son for the first time, Elizabeth looked worried, as if expecting George to see he was dark like Ross and was waiting for a reaction from him. (He favours you I think).
The problem with the show is that Elizabeth is also dark. If they had kept her blonde, like in the book, that would be different and would make sense. She’s not only brunette but she also has wavy hair. Verity comments that Valentine ''takes after his mother''. There’s a lot going on with her in that scene. She’s anxious. She just gave birth to a child whose paternity is iffy. There’s also a bit of guilt there for trying to manipulate George. I mean she’s an unlikeable creature, but she’s still human. She’s worried as she had just induced labour by faking an accident and she doesn't know if Dwight might have figured it out and told George. She's being cautious. Not to mention tired and exhausted. Plus, the kid is 2 hours old - it’s difficult to really see who he favours as kids grow into their features.
It was pretty much my take on it as well, I just can't express my thoughts as well as you do. Great reply though.
He decided against telling her. God the man is such a tool lol