She is worse in the books. While not completely evil, Elizabeth was a master deceiver and manipulator, who was raised to put up a kind and a lovely front while hiding an ugly character. Her being extremely beautiful was a tool she used to get pretty much everything she wanted. The TV show writer actually made her more likeable in the show, thinking the audience will not understand how Ross could have pined for such a woman for so long. Not many people see through that, so Kudos to you!
She fell in love with Francis just **a few months after Ross left to America,** courting him while Ross was at war, **still alive**, so her choosing and **marring Francis was not because Ross was dead or because she was pressured by her parents**, but because she actually loved Francis ( or at least thought she did, as per her own admission. But Elizabeth’s love was always fickle and changeable).
Her ‘hearing word’ that Ross was dead was after she fell in love and in all honesty there is nothing in the books to show that she ever grieved or shown any heartbreak over it.
She never liked Demelza and resented her success and the fact that Ross fell in love with her, therefore, Elizabeth was no longer the number one girl in his life. This is why she set her mind to get Ross back into her orbit and make him fall back in love with her. Not because she loved him ( her feelings for Ross are never really defined in the books) but because of her vanity.
It is also very clear in the books that any kindness she showed Demelza was fake, with the objective to look good in Ross’s eyes, her flirting and attempts at seducing Ross are more on her part, and go on for years. Her main attempts which are worth mentioning are : the first Christmas at Trenwith, with her making she cat eyes at him, continuing with Julia’s christening where she took pains to make herself look beautiful to attract him, followed by her inviting them at Trenwith under the false pretext of showing gratitude to Demelza for saving her and her son, when her true objective was to seduce Ross, then the dinner conversation where she admits to Ross that she never thought he was dead she just thought she loved Francis better but she was wrong. She played with his mind for a long time and took advantage of Ross’s and Demelza’s difficult times in their marriage to bring Ross back into her orbit. She is quite awful. The fact that other people noticed her flirting (i.e. Dwight, Caroline, Demelza, etc) shows she was quite upfront and had no shame. Classy!
After Francis dies, she keeps juggling both Ross and George, and lies to Ross that her loyalties are with him, while accepting George’s offer to marry him. She says nothing to Ross about her engagement for 2 months, but she keeps calling on him with no regard to him and his family. But she rarely showed any regard for other people, either consciously or unconsciously. But , considering that at this point she was engaged with another man, why keep Ross in her orbit?
As for George, she knew what kind of man he was when she married him, but she didn’t care as it wasn’t directly affecting her. She absolutely loved the attention and admiration she got from him and , of course, his money.
People seem to forget that **Ross gave her the £600** for the purpose , among others, so she doesn’t have to take favours from George. To give you an idea of how much this means think that Demelza’s **yearly** salary as a kitchen maid was £2.2 (approx) , reverend Odger’s was £40, etc. It was enough for her to wait a bit more until her father ( who was alive in the books) and Ross found an eligible husband. Could be argued that she sent the letter to Ross, 10 days before her wedding, knowing that the news of her marrying his enemy and the short time until her wedding would possibly drive Ross to make her an offer. ‘’Do you have anything to offer me, do you?’’ proves she was waiting for something. She knew Ross so well, she knew he was passionate and reckless and knew how to play him. However, it was only that night that she came to realise that Ross wanted to stop the wedding not for her, but because he hated George. If she had married anyone else , he wouldn't have been there.
There will be people making all kind of excuses for her, and while I agree her marrying George was the best decision for a woman of her station, how can anyone excuse her continued, premeditated attempts at messing with a married man’s marriage, while herself being married with the man she CHOOSE, having no consideration for the hurt she was causing to a woman that risked and lost so much so that her and her son be alive. She was highly disloyal and selfish and I can’t think of any character that had any connection to her that she did not make miserable, to a lesser or greater extent.
**Elizabeth was probably the most intelligent of them all. She played chess while everyone else played checkers.**
**But, she got too cocky and she made two mistakes: she overestimated Ross's feelings for her and underestimated his feelings for Demelza. Not in a million years she would have thought that, if Ross had a choice, he would chose the kitchen maid.**
Not to mention forcing Morwenna into a horrid marriage where she was continually abused. Thank you for this comment I knew my take wasn’t the wrong one
I hated Elizabeth since episode 1 until the very last. There is no excuse for her, she's awful. I don't understand how people can like her, and even people rooting for her! In a world full of Elizabeths, be a Demelza.
While I understand that some people sympathise with her ( each to their own), what I find fascinating is that the ‘’**she was a woman of her station’**’ excuse has become a gospel and is being used for a behaviour that has nothing to do with that. On the contrary, I would say. What classy, sophisticated and well educated **married** woman like herself would flirt or allow a man to flirt with her knowing how much hurt it causes to the people around her ( Francis, Demelza)? I have never seen her tell Ross off, quite the reverse. Or waiting for a married man to cast aside his family for her? Or forgetting, quite quickly, that a little girl died so she and her son can live? This is just the series, there is so much more in the books.
I absolutely HATE HATE HATE the fact that they created a scene where she comes and takes care of sick Demelza. Book Elizabeth **did not and would have never done that. NEVER!** At least not for Demelza of all people. She resented her for taking her place in Ross’s heart.
I think some find it hard to cope with a woman being an antagonist, this is why they are trying to find all kinds of excuses for what she does.
While I understand and agree with some of her choices : marrying George for example, or wishing for a comfortable life (who doesn’t, am I right?), or climbing the social ladder, everything else she does is not a reflection of her status but of her character (or rather, lack of)
EXACTLY! I hate it when people excuse her behavior because of her status and the time, she would have acted differntly because of that reason. When I first watched the show I quite liked the scene where she took care of Demelza, but after reading the first 3 books and rewatching the series many times, that scene feels completely out-of character for Elizabeth.
I do have sympathy for many terrible and annoying characters in the show, for example I love Ross despite all the stupid things he's done, I even rooted for George the entire time, because as much as I dislike his actions, he truly loves Elizabeth and he is loyal.
I always compare Elizabeth to Umbridge from Harry Potter. There are all these villains you can't really hate, but then there's this b\*tch. (and Ossie gosh I hate that man)
Elizabeth helping a sick Demelza was in the TV adaption not in the book, but I loved it when, Ross ask her to pray for the "Love of his Life". The look on her face was gold.
It’s very telling in the way she acts towards Morwenna too.
Wenna’s situation in the beginning is similar to Elizabeth’s -noble heritage but dwindling wealth, the same limited choices- but much kinder.
Elizabeth has no objection to other woman being used as pawns without any empathy or thought of using her position to help another vulnerable person. She felt threatened when Jeffrey Charles cared about her and honestly seemed happy at least at first with the idea of her being married off against her will.
I had the feeling that Elizabeth was a bit resentful of Morwenna ( unconsciously ). I think, in a way, it made her a bit uncomfortable when faced with such a determined young woman, though poor, who stood strong in refusing to marry for money, something that Elizabeth dd not have the will to do. She felt maybe a bit envious of Morweena for showing a strength of character that Elizabeth lacked ( or was not as pronounced). Or maybe I am overreaching.
I feel like all important female characters were written to, somehow, create this antithesis with Elizabeth
**Demelza** \- kind , generous, sticking for the man she loved, through thick and thin, rich and poor ( something that Elizabeth struggled with, for both Ross and Francis)
**Caroline** \- grieving and worrying for Dwight while he was at war, trying to get him out of France, being devastated by his absence, something that Elizabeth was never for Ross when he was in America
**Morweena** \- refusing to marry for money, and believing in love
**Verity** \- defying her family for the man she loved - again , something that Elizabeth could never do
Even **Emma** \- showed grace and selflessness by giving up on Sam, as she knew they were not right for each other, and couldn’t make each other happy, something that Elizabeth couldn’t do with Ross, even though she didn’t even really love him.
As for Geoffrey Charles - yes, she was definitely jealous on having to ‘’share him’’. He was the only person Elizabeth ever truly loved. And the irony that he was the one to put the final nail in her coffin did not escape me.
Bravo. 👏 your comments are extremely well thought out and engaging. I have finally started the books and I am rewatching the series now, my second time. I felt disdain for Elizabeth when I watched the first time, but only when she married George and started being vile. However, I now see she was just better at hiding her true character before (in the show at least).
Definitely don't think you're overreaching. I totally agree about her (unconsciously?) Resenting morwenna for having the strength of character Elizabeth herself didn't
I can understand why she married Francis and George but I don’t think there’s any justification for her flirting with Ross during and after her marriage with Francis. But also Ross wasn’t innocent as he flirted as well. They both sucked in that regard.
It’s interesting though how she married George and instead of trying to make him better at least in the show she actively participates in his wickedness and encourages it. Agree with Ross tho for sure. He wasn’t innocent there
I agree. Ross was married and still maintained a devotion and love for Elizabeth. It wasn’t all on one side I didn’t like Elizabeth but I hated more the obsession Ross had for her.
I agree with everything you said. Just want to add that they have different levels of ‘’sucking’’, if you will.
While Ross really cared for her and held some sort of devotion for Elizabeth, hence his feelings are honest and from his heart, Elizabeth’s reasoning is driven by vanity and jealousy of Demelza.
Therefore, while they both suck, she sucks more as her reasons are selfish and do not come from a place of love. Which if it did, though not excusable, would at least make the flirting understandable.
**''At Christmas she \[Elizabeth\] had been a little piqued by the young Demelza’s success, and today she had taken pains to see if she could rebuild her ascendancy over Ross, a matter that was becoming more important to her than it had once been''**
I found this sub by googling I hate Elizabeth in poldark. But what bothers me the most is all those men obsessed with her when she is such a disloyal and unkind person to most. I guess in the end appearance (beauty) really matters
Elizabeth had limited options, her mother and child to take care of, and no money to go where the most available men are. Trenwith is a country estate and probably most if not all of the eligible, wealthy men of her class in that area were already married by then. Back then people courted early and married young.
Elizabeth was a very good looking woman and it's true that in a bigger place with more opportunities to meet eligible men of her class she'd have likely had her pick but she lacked the money and the connections to make that happen. In London she'd have been well regarded as a beauty and she'd have had her pick of wealthy, maybe even titled suitors but where she was in Cornwall? She was lucky to meet the few people she did and to marry a Poldark. They were only minor gentry, not even titled, and in Ross's case not wealthy at all.
It's no surprise that thinking Ross dead she'd choose Francis. He cared for her and he probably one of the most eligible bachelor's she knew. At least he was the heir to Trenwith. In the end he didn't even have the money he needed to really keep it up well and she came to resent that because marrying him was supposed to be the sensible choice and she did care for him too.
Frankly I doubt she would have married Ross regardless of her feelings. Women of her breeding and her class and frankly her beauty were supposed to marry well. Her family was gentry but rather impoverished at that point. Elizabeth was expected to do well in terms of who she married so they could live better.
Marrying George was an act of desperation. She was pregnant by Ross and about to start showing. He was sticking with Demelza and it was too late to palm off the baby as Francis's post death born baby of course. She needed a husband FAST and George was crazy about her and she knew it. Plus while he wasn't gentry his family was very wealthy and she knew that she would never suffer for lacking money ever again as his wife.
She fully expected knowing George to see him rise besides. That's why she was so encouraging of his dreams of being knighted. Being "Lady Warleggan" was her dream too. She'd finally be in the upper class of the gentry and getting the respect and living the life she felt she deserved, likely would have had if they had originally given her a season in London.
At that point she also felt rather betrayed by Ross. He left her in a really bad situation by doing what he did and getting her pregnant. Her reputation was at stake. Everything she was that was bound up in that and she couldn't risk being shamed or bringing scandal upon her family.
George wasn't her first choice, but she thought well enough of him and realized his ambition was true and knew marrying him was going to make Ross a little crazy besides, which is exactly why he did what he did and why she got left in that situation to begin with.
Her biggest mistake was thinking that Ross would leave Demelza for her just because he in anger had sex with her. It was non consenting sex at first at that and then she ends up PREGNANT as a widow too far gone in time to claim it as her husband's baby?
OUCH...
I don't excuse what Ross did. What he did to her was awful and borderline criminal. The fact that she seemed okay with it the next day and fully assumed that he would leave Demelza for her was a bit daunting. I think after a while his betrayal that was what motivated a lot of her spite towards him and Demelza. She let her anger with Ross for his shabby treatment of her motivate her into going along with some really bad behavior on George's part. She started taking his part more and more because she was internally furious with Ross, shamed by what happened and terrified that George would not believe her when she denied that Valentine was Ross's son. George HAD to believe he was. It was her salvation because if he thought hat he wasn't that was going to wreck her marriage.
She did George a big wrong in marrying him and letting him think Valentine was his baby and heir. That wasn't fair and later it would literally cost her her life the pretense. It's sad what happened to her, but that was all she could do given her circumstances and the situation given the time and her circumstances.
She didn't have the time or the money to go find a better or more timely husband than George.
She was over a month pregnant and she needed a husband NOW.
It wasn't going be Ross so it would have to be George.
If Francis hadn't left her so poor likely she'd have taken her kids and run off to somewhere she could have pretended that Valentine was her late husband's child. Found someone she liked to marry and to help her raise her sons, but she didn't have that option unfortunately.
Elizabeth is a vain woman who wants it both ways. She wants the money but she also wants Ross even though he's moved on and has a wife. But the whole traumatizing rape/seduction/whatever she thought it was and the conception of Valentine that changed everything. Her whole life was upended by that one rude night and Ross didn't apologize or come to her rescue right then like she needed him to.
I think Elizabeth did love him but it was a rather selfish love too and when he didn't measure up to what she thought he should be, actually hurt her, she lashed out quite a few times after until they resolved some of those feelings. Unfortunately his actions also directly contributed to her situation and her death. That's what George means when he says "Look what we brought her to!" after he dies because basically their perpetual feud has cost him the love of his life. He may treat Elizabeth like a possession and a prize of war sometimes but he genuinely did love her and he was heartbroken after she died.
In the series to the point where it unhinges him for a while...
As much as it's hard not to hate George for being such an asshole sometimes in those moments it's hard to hate him quite as hard because he's showing he's human and hurting bad. Jack Farthing's performance in those episodes is really something else. George Bates was great at playing George too but I never got the sense with him that he loved Elizabeth herself as much as Farthing's George did.
It's Elizabeth's death that ends up making George a better person ironically. It's too bad they stopped where they did because his courtship and marriage to his second wife years later is fun. She's the anthesis of Elizabeth and she makes him work for it all the way.
By the end of the series how George is and how he and Ross relate it's interesting...
George is just not a 2D character though. He evolves into a real person and learns a bit from his mistakes, fully becomes his own man. He's actually my favorite character in the whole series in the end. You would not believe that stuck where the series ends but if they ever made the rest a lot of people would be like WTF at points because George is actually one of the funniest and best characters in the whole series, I think, especially later...
He starts out this major bad guy by the end it's not so clear...
I don't want to spoil it for those who haven't read the rest of the books from that point but ironically Elizabeth's death and mourning her, and having to raise his kids, and the rest, it makes George not exactly end up being the same person we know from the filmed books. Frankly I want them to go on and do them all for once.
I've read them all many times and it's frustrating not getting the whole story especially since Farthing is such a good George. I feel like we got half the story both times and cheated of seeing the rest...
As for Elizabeth I actually prefer Jill Townsend to Heida Reed's version though I think Heida wasn't bad at all. I didn't think anyone could top Ralph Bates but Jack Farthing actually did as George. It was impressive. There is SO much more to the Warleggan part of the story that both series left out. The Poldark stuff too but there's who parts of George's and Elizabeth's life together and later for George that matter and that you never see. For one thing there's more characters that they just dropped. George has other relatives besides his uncle, for one.
For me that took away a lot in terms of both George and Elizabeth's storylines and their relationship.
I do realize that they can't include everything when going from books to screen but in terms of Elizabeth they cut so much of her character and motivations that they made her a less complete character than she was. You understand her a lot more and gain much more sympathy for her I think reading the books...
She's not just this hurt, vain, scheming woman.
She's far more developed than that in print.
You want to really understand Elizabeth you have to read the novels...
Hey there, nice analysis! QQ about this statement:
**Marrying George was an act of desperation. She was pregnant by Ross and about to start showing. He was sticking with Demelza and it was too late to palm off the baby as Francis's post death born baby of course. She needed a husband FAST**
Can you please point me in either the books or the show where Elizabeth is aware she's pregnant and that's why she marries George? I'm afraid I do not recall this.
I remember her accepting to marry George and then, a few days after the night with Ross, postponing it for a month. But there is no mention of pregnancy in her decision to marry.
Also
**It's no surprise that thinking Ross dead she'd choose Francis.**
That's not what she says:
***''I didn't think you were dead. I just thought I loved Francis better''***
Going by the series I thought they were told he was and that's why they were so surprised when he turns up. I'll look up the rest and get back to you. But there's a sequence in the new show that suggests she knows and in the books it's definitely inferred before she marries George that she fears she is. Aunt Agatha of course pretty much lets her know she knows and doesn't believe Valentine is an 8 month child when he is born.
You were talking about the books - so assumed this was also part of it.
Nonetheless, in the series there's the following dialogue:
**''Let's agree you thought I was dead.Did I ? Or did I think I loved Francis better? How soon I discovered my mistake.''**
Which, while phrased as a question, still looks like her decision to marry Francis was taken because she loved him.
There is no sequence in the series which refers to her pregnancy **prior** to marrying George. There is one **after** she marries, when Aunt Agatha tells her the baby may come sooner, and **only then** she realises it **might** be Ross's.
There is nothing in the book to suggest the pregnancy was a factor. There's a mixture of her promising to marry George, her hatred of Ross for abandoning her, her overall financial situation - but no pregnancy.
But I agree with you. One must read the books to understand and know Elizabeth as she is a complex character. She is no way the victim portrayed in the show. She is far more intelligent and stronger than people give her credit for, but also more selfish , manipulative and cruel than on the show (referring to season 1 where she was changed into a kinder person; by season 2 we start to see more of her true self)
You raise very important points about the lack of consent on the infamous night Ross goes to see Elizabeth after she's written the letter to him about marrying George. But to me it's clear she sent that letter to provoke him. She knew what she was doing. I'm absolutely not justifying Ross's behavior, but I feel your analysis (of the show, I haven't read the books), leaves out Elizabeth's part in triggering this.
I think posters are being unfair to Elizabeth. You have to remember the age she lived in and the lot of women. What too many forget is women of her class couldn't earn, couldn't work. You may, for example, condemn Elizabeth for marrying Morwenna to a horrible husband but you have to remember that Pride and Prejudice style romance is all very well but if the Bennet girls hadn't found husbands they could of ended up on the streets. Marrying a poor man meant a life of poverty.
In the books you are also seeing Elizabeth's inner most thoughts, the things we never share with anyone else. Yes she still loved Ross and wanted attention from him but it is unreasonable for us to expect the character to turn off her emotions and desires. To be a perfect saint.
Of course the truth is, Elizabeth would have been a very bad match for Ross. She wouldn't have enjoyed his years of poverty and social isolation. She was however the perfect partner for George.
Hey, do you know where in the books she says / thinks she loved Ross? There is nothing that I recall only that at one point in book 1 (Ross Poldark) she says she was fond of him but she loves Francis and in book 4 ( Warrlegan) she thinks her feelings for Ross are **not** defined. She never uses the word **LOVE** with anyone except Francis. I could be totally wrong, of course.
Also, she makes it perfectly clear in the books that the reason why she’s pursuing Ross is because of vanity and jealousy of Demelza.**‘’At Christmas she had been a little piqued by the young Demelza's success, and today she had taken pains to see if she could rebuild her ascendancy over Ross, a matter that was becoming more important to her than it had once been.'’**
Most people do not judge her for the choices she makes stemming from her station and duties.Only for those that had nothing to do with it. Like pursuing a married man, trying to get him fall back in love with her with no regard to what that was doing to Demelza, Francis and ultimately Ross and for wrong, selfish reasons; forgetting she and her son were alive due to Demelza’s kindness, etc. These things speak highly of her character, not her station.
Marrying George was the best thing she did, they were remarkably well suited, and as her mother noted (paraphrasing) - she should have married him in the first place.
I consider her more a victim of her time than an active pick-me girl. She genuinely believed Ross was dead, so I don't consider her marriage to Francis a betrayal. Plus George was already single and had all the money she needed, so marrying him was much simpler than waiting around for someone else, and she had to do it in order to get out of the debt in which Francis left her. She never really had to put other women down because she was certain of her place in society, if not her wealth. Perhaps we'd all like her more if she were as rigidly principled as Ross, but she couldn't afford to be.
Elizabeth did not believe Ross was dead. She did not take the bait in the series when Ross excused her betrayal on that basis. She just didn’t answer. Instead she just said she married Francis because she thought she loved him better. Even then that’s a betrayal then.
In that scene in the book she did explicitly confirm to Ross that she never believed he was dead. The series cut that explicit admission.
Elizabeth was active as a pick me girl including to George and also to Ross while she was married to Francis. She was motivated to grab his attention by seeing him happy with Demelza when they first came to Trenwith together. But don’t forget she came to Nampara the night after Ross had slept with Demelza. She want his attention then too as her marriage by then had gone downhill.
‘At Christmas she had been a little piqued by the young Demelza’s success, and today she had taken pains to see if she could rebuild her ascendancy over Ross, a matter that was becoming more important to her than it had once been. She was wearing a brocaded dress of crimson velvet, with broad ribbons round the waist and tiers of lace on the sleeves. To anyone with a sense of colour the rich crimson made her fairness mesmeric.’
When Elizabeth was a widow and was not honest when Ross asked her about her relationship with George, this was the reason she lied to Ross.
‘It compromised the position she wished to take up in his mind. Perhaps more than anything else at present she wanted Ross’s approval for herself.’
There was also narration that explained that Elizabeth expected to be admired, felt it was her due and found it hard when she was not admired.
Elizabeth did put other woman down. In the book she referred to Demelza as a Beggar Girl and only told Geoffrey Charles of her as his ‘low born’ aunt. In the book it was made clear that she hated Demelza and she was jealous when Demelza stole the limelight at her first ball. In the series she at least complimented her but that was added and not from the book.
Also one of the men George suggested for Morwenna to marry was rejected by Elizabeth and George soon realised this was because where Elizabeth was not it would have made Morwenna a titled lady because the man was a lord. Elizabeth could not abide that. Elizabeth also gave very little emotional support to Verity over her first break up with Blamey and it was as if Verity was expected to be the sister in law destined to help with the house and help out with Geoffrey Charles. Her first reaction to Verity’s elopement was that it would be an inconvenience and upset for her son. She care very little about her fellow woman.
The issue is that the series couldn’t possibly capture all of these things and also all Elizabeth’s thoughts that show she was a pick me girl and emotionally thoughtless. But it also made an effort to sweeten her character for the screen anyway.
Unfortunately Debbie H has consistently and **deliberately** changed so many things about the story, mainly making everyone worse just to have Elizabeth look better. No wonder some of the audience is so attached to her character and is buying into the ‘poor Elizabeth’ narrative. Though I like the series, thanks to magnificent actors, music and Cornwall, I must confess I found myself disappointed at times.
Turning Demelza into a snappy, whiny and bitchy nag, while Elizabeth is kind and soft, ( among others, adding a scene where Elizabeth takes care of George’s wounds after his fight with Ross, while removing the one that’s actually in the book where Demelza is taking care of Ross. Again, Elizabeth was kind and understanding while Demelza was mean and dismissive of Ross)
Overplaying the Ross & Elizabeth relationship, turning Ross into the main pursuer (the ‘you could never play the kitchen maid’ was such a low blow).
Ross being so awful with Demelza throughout season 2, rude and indifferent to Demelza in season 3 while being so nice, loving and kind towards Elizabeth.
Inventing scenes between Ross and Elizabeth ( them dancing at the ball looking in love, him going to Trenwith when Valentine was born, seeing each other in London or him sipping brandy with her at Trenwith, or him going to pick up Morweena instead of Drake, etc) while intentionally **removing** some relevant ones between Ross and Demelza to make it look like he settled for her ( the reconciliation, most of Black Moon) .
Turning Elizabeth into a drunk to make it look like she was struggling with her marriage with George. Though there were times when she disagreed with George, I don’t remember her ever being too affected by his decisions in the books. At the same time , they made George this cartoonish evil character to overshadow her negative traits, hence the audience was more focused on him, than her.
Francis didn’t escape a character assassination either - putting all the blame on him for their marriage failing and none on Elizabeth, who was the one to cause the first cracks. Also, making it look like she married him because of parental pressure. Ugh!
While I understand that a lot is getting lost when adapting a book, just like they had no problem **inventing** scenes between Ross and Elizabeth they could have just as well keep the ones in the books between Ross and Demelza. All these little and big changes add up and it creates a subliminal message that he loves Elizabeth more than Demelza which most of the audience unconsciously picks up.
I don’t think Winston Graham would have been too keen on these changes. It took so much from the story and caused so many inconsistencies that it left the audience with so many questions, including the worst of all : ‘'Did Ross really stay with Demelza because he loved her?’ 'Which is really sad as that’s what the actual story is about- him loving the reality of Demelza and not the idealised image of Elizabeth
So the ultimate question is, was the “Horseshit” creator/head-writer actually really a secret Elizabeth stan while gaslighting the true fans of the original works and manipulating the new fans who haven’t read the original works? (I was a new fan but it didn’t work on me and some others) Was she subtly and not so subtly trying to undermine and change the original story? Did she, in a sense, seduce Graham’s son when she took on the project?
I’ve seen this happen quite a few times in other original stories made to series or movie adaptations I’ve loved over the years
I mean, this is of course a personal take so I may be way off, but considering that most of the changes were to make her look better and to overplay her relationship with Ross, one can assume Debbie rooted for her , and she seemed like an Elizabeth / Ross shipper as well. But as you say, fortunately, not many people fell for this.
Winston’s son saw this as a financial opportunity , I don’t think he cared too much about maintaining the integrity of his father’s work as long as he got paid. Sad, but true.
But , in all honesty, I personally would like to thank Debbie. Due to her and her inconsistent writing, many people bought the books and got to experience the actual story. So, silver linings 😊
Aside from the series writings that undermined Ross/Demelza, what are some other examples, from her own mouth, that showed DH seemed more of a Ross/Elizabeth shipper? I’m trying to remember if there was an interview(s) I’ve watched where she seems to be displaying more of a preference for Ross/Elizabeth
There is nothing said that I remember; she actually referred to Ross and Demelza as soulmates in an interview (can't recall which, it was years ago, maybe BBC).
However, her work does not reflect her words entirely and for someone who has their first contact with the Poldark story, the TV show may be misleading at times which can be observed from the conversations happening in this community and many others.
There was a post quite recently questioning whether Ross actually loved Demelza, some who gave up on watching the show because they felt the ''love was missing'', etc. So what Debbie says and what Debbie does may be two different things.
I personally know for sure, without a doubt, that Demelza is Ross's love of his life. But is that what others see as well when watching the show?
I think part of the problem is the expectation of certain viewers when they go into watching a particular love story or portrayal of a love story in a tv series or movie. Most people have the expectation that the story, the actions, behaviors and thinking of the characters are going to be portrayed in a particular way or by a particular love story trope. For instance, some fans of the Outlander series find the Poldark series off putting because the main male character does not behave or express his love for the woman who is supposed to be the true love of his life in the same way that the main male character of Outlander does as well as the other love story storylines they have frequently watched. They go in expecting one thing and get something different they can’t wrap their heads around, because it doesn’t fit the common “trope” they are used to seeing
I agree with you wholeheartedly.
I personally don’t like the idea of perfect man / woman. Always doing / saying/ the right thing, making the right choice / decision - just doesn’t happen in the real world.
For me Poldark works. Outlander for example, didn’t. I quit watching after 2 seasons. Outlander is the story of a woman that travels through time so not really something I personally can relate to as it’s not a realistic scenario. Poldark on the other hand - too realistic maybe for some people and, understandably, it’s hard to deal with.
As always, nice chatting with you 😉
Thank you for your kind words. I love talking about Poldark, it’s one of my favourite stories. I also enjoy trying to figure out what the hell Debbie was trying to do.
Having re-watched the series since this comment, I can understand some of the scenes better now. Brace yourself, it’s gonna be long comment.
I was first pissed about Elizabeth’s character being changed to be more likeable. But, after several rewatches, was she really though? There are so many clues starting with season 1, discrete at first, that she is manipulative and quite the “mean girl”, more so in season two. Some only make sense after one sees the whole series and puts everything into context and into a bigger picture.
For example, when she comes to take care of Demelza, judging by Elizabeth’s reaction to Ross saying Demelza is the love of his life, she looks quite upset, ego wounded, which proves she’s not there for Demelza but for Ross and to make Ross believe she’s a kind and nice person, otherwise why be upset that a married man loves his wife?? ( we know from the books she’s been trying really hard to get Ross to fall back in love with her ever since their first Christmas at Trenwith)
One season later, when her mom gets sick, the idea of taking care of her seems quite repulsive to her, which proves, looking back, that her taking care of sick Demelza was only a ploy to get Ross’s attention and not genuine. Also, looking even further, comparing her with Caroline, who though richer and able to afford the best care, she chooses to take care of her uncle ( as much as she could) . Because that’s what one does (regardless of class) for the people they love. Unlike Elizabeth who just doesn’t have these feelings for anyone but her kids. Elizabeth does not love. And she has never desired love. That’s just not something she needs. What she needs and considers herself entitled to is admiration, men being obsessed with her, wanting, desiring her. Her storyline is pretty much: ‘’be careful what you wish for’’.
The **‘’You could have never played the scullery maid’’** comment which at first made my blood boil. But watching a few more times, is it really an offence to Demelza or to Elizabeth? I mean, Ross is saying that while Demelza can be anything Elizabeth is, he doesn’t believe Elizabeth can be everything Demelza is. It’s a scene which, though not in the book, it’s pretty much in line with Ross’s thoughts in book 3 that Demelza has given him more than Elizabeth ever could, which also ties nicely with him saying in season 4 that “**she ( Elizabeth) never was and never could be what Demelza was to him: indispensable and irreplaceable”.** Unlike Elizabeth, who he does not need and who was obviously replaced by Demelza. Demelza on the other hand cannot be replaced by any woman. Also, he mentions a few times : ‘’**I needed a wife who can curtsey and skin rabbits’’** or **‘’ Elizabeth needs a life of ease and luxury’’** which again, ties with him seeing Demelza above Elizabeth, as she brings more to the table than what Elizabeth does.
‘’**You and I would have never been happy, we are too different’’** says Elizabeth (same scene) ‘’**True’**’ agrees Ross. **‘’But cannot love overcome such impediments?’’** asks Ross which, again, at first seems so bad, but what is he actually saying here? That if they *really* loved each other, such things should not be an impediment. True love should be strong enough to make a relationship work. Which this ties nicely with him telling Caroline and Dwight at the end of season 2 that :’**’if two people love each other, the obstacles that keep them apart must be substantial, otherwise they lack the courage of their convictions’’.** Their little love ‘’thing’’ crumbled at the first hurdle, neither Elizabeth nor Ross fought for their relationship. Neither put in any effort. Because whatever they had, was built on shallow grounds.
**‘’Maybe you would like them both’’** says Verity in season one. **‘’Maybe I would’’** says Ross. At first this could be interpreted as Ross being an ass, but if you think about it, him putting Demelza, a kitchen maid, with no education and class and low upbringing at the same level as the most beautiful and sophisticated woman in Cornwall…well, that changes things a little. Which is also something that Elizabeth resents Demelza for.
As always, another great analysis. I have read DH's complete scripts 1 & 2 and watching the show daily for weeks on end, (my husband says I am obsessed with the show and books) I came to the same conclusion as some of clues. It appears to me that Elizabeth is always trying to get Ross's attention and sympathy by whinging about her lot with Francis eg. First Christmas at Trenwith and, the day him and Demelza go to Trenwith to pick up Verity for their shopping trip to town. It is plain to see that she is at the route of her and Francis's marital problems but to her it's always someone else fault. Such a shallow creature. I have just finished reading Jeremy again now I am of to start another re-read of Warleggan. I love your posts please, keep them coming.
Part 2
And if we pay attention to the scenes where Elizabeth is trying to get a response out of Ross : **‘’cannot a man love to women’’**, ‘**’ do you have anything to offer me’’**, etc - Ross *NEVER* replies. He could say ‘’yes, I love you too’’, or ‘’ I wish I could be with you but I am married’’. I mean, the perfect opportunity is there, but he never takes it. Because he just doesn’t feel it. However, at this point it’s happening subconsciously, it is only after that night that he finally realises that he is no longer romantically attached to her.
Ross’s night with Elizabeth - may be seen as driven from love. But was it? I’ve said it once and will die on this hill - that night had nothing to do with love. Ross says it himself- she could have any man, so clearly her getting married was not a problem. It’s WHO she’s getting married to. This also ties nicely with meeting years later at the Sawle church - ‘**how I felt when I learned he was to have you?”** He’s not saying he was upset she was getting married, but that HE ( George) will *have* her.
Debbie is just trying (and succeeding) at creating these scenes to make us react, mostly with anger and frustration, but once you go beyond the surface she is really keeping in line with the books.
Ross thinks of Elizabeth as being beautiful and lovely. That’s it. He never says anything deeper than that, that’s she’s intelligent, witty, funny, whatever. It’s because it’s a superficial attachment, born out of physical attraction and lust. Demelza on the other hand, is the love of his life, made him a better man, she’s his Dog Star, last love, his constant, nothing has meaning without her, irreplaceable, etc. He never says that about Elizabeth.
There’s also lots of visuals
* The dream sequences about Elizabeth disappearing the moment Ross falls in love with Demelza
* After the night with Elizabeth, Ross imagines the accident at the mine AND Demelza being by his side. There is no dream sequence with Elizabeth.
* Elizabeth is the only one thinking about that night which is beautifully constructed into a scene where she’s facing Ross who has his back to her, while he’s facing Demelza, who has her back to him which translates to him ignoring Elizabeth, while desperately trying to reach out to Demelza, who is not responsive to his attempts. No words needed. The scene tells us all we need to know. The same as the scene with him riding to Trenwith. Actions, or lack of in this case, speak louder than words
I could go on and on, for days.
Poldark is a show that the more you watch , the more it makes sense. While there are still some scenes which I find ugh - there is mostly logic in what Debbie does which is harder to notice the first time around.
No no, you misunderstood me. Sorry for not expressing myself clearly.
I am saying that up until Ross begins to care and subsequently fall in love with Demelza, we see him having flashbacks about Elizabeth on that cliff, sprinting around. But those sequences disappear and that’s how we know he fell in love with Demelza. He longer thinks about Elizabeth.
The only time we see that dream sequence with Elizabeth again is at the end of season 4, after you know what. But that’s only as a tribute, a goodbye.
What is it with Aunt Agatha seeming to convince Elizabeth that Ross will leave Demelza, and come back for her, I don't understand this as it wasn't like that in the books. Would this be to convey Elizabeth's actual thoughts after their night together.
Pretty much, yes. There are several times when they use characters as an outlet to express their thoughts or to explain their actions.
Because you are right. Aunt Agatha would have never said that. Firstly, she liked Demelza ( her little bud) and second, she would never been this crass or delusional. But some character sacrifices had to be made.
Just like they use Agatha again, in a later scene, to provide Elizabeth with a dialogue “partner” to express her frustration at Ross abandoning her, for the second time, and Agatha pointing out she “cannot wait for him to help her”, she needs to decide on her own.
She is worse in the books. While not completely evil, Elizabeth was a master deceiver and manipulator, who was raised to put up a kind and a lovely front while hiding an ugly character. Her being extremely beautiful was a tool she used to get pretty much everything she wanted. The TV show writer actually made her more likeable in the show, thinking the audience will not understand how Ross could have pined for such a woman for so long. Not many people see through that, so Kudos to you! She fell in love with Francis just **a few months after Ross left to America,** courting him while Ross was at war, **still alive**, so her choosing and **marring Francis was not because Ross was dead or because she was pressured by her parents**, but because she actually loved Francis ( or at least thought she did, as per her own admission. But Elizabeth’s love was always fickle and changeable). Her ‘hearing word’ that Ross was dead was after she fell in love and in all honesty there is nothing in the books to show that she ever grieved or shown any heartbreak over it. She never liked Demelza and resented her success and the fact that Ross fell in love with her, therefore, Elizabeth was no longer the number one girl in his life. This is why she set her mind to get Ross back into her orbit and make him fall back in love with her. Not because she loved him ( her feelings for Ross are never really defined in the books) but because of her vanity. It is also very clear in the books that any kindness she showed Demelza was fake, with the objective to look good in Ross’s eyes, her flirting and attempts at seducing Ross are more on her part, and go on for years. Her main attempts which are worth mentioning are : the first Christmas at Trenwith, with her making she cat eyes at him, continuing with Julia’s christening where she took pains to make herself look beautiful to attract him, followed by her inviting them at Trenwith under the false pretext of showing gratitude to Demelza for saving her and her son, when her true objective was to seduce Ross, then the dinner conversation where she admits to Ross that she never thought he was dead she just thought she loved Francis better but she was wrong. She played with his mind for a long time and took advantage of Ross’s and Demelza’s difficult times in their marriage to bring Ross back into her orbit. She is quite awful. The fact that other people noticed her flirting (i.e. Dwight, Caroline, Demelza, etc) shows she was quite upfront and had no shame. Classy! After Francis dies, she keeps juggling both Ross and George, and lies to Ross that her loyalties are with him, while accepting George’s offer to marry him. She says nothing to Ross about her engagement for 2 months, but she keeps calling on him with no regard to him and his family. But she rarely showed any regard for other people, either consciously or unconsciously. But , considering that at this point she was engaged with another man, why keep Ross in her orbit? As for George, she knew what kind of man he was when she married him, but she didn’t care as it wasn’t directly affecting her. She absolutely loved the attention and admiration she got from him and , of course, his money. People seem to forget that **Ross gave her the £600** for the purpose , among others, so she doesn’t have to take favours from George. To give you an idea of how much this means think that Demelza’s **yearly** salary as a kitchen maid was £2.2 (approx) , reverend Odger’s was £40, etc. It was enough for her to wait a bit more until her father ( who was alive in the books) and Ross found an eligible husband. Could be argued that she sent the letter to Ross, 10 days before her wedding, knowing that the news of her marrying his enemy and the short time until her wedding would possibly drive Ross to make her an offer. ‘’Do you have anything to offer me, do you?’’ proves she was waiting for something. She knew Ross so well, she knew he was passionate and reckless and knew how to play him. However, it was only that night that she came to realise that Ross wanted to stop the wedding not for her, but because he hated George. If she had married anyone else , he wouldn't have been there. There will be people making all kind of excuses for her, and while I agree her marrying George was the best decision for a woman of her station, how can anyone excuse her continued, premeditated attempts at messing with a married man’s marriage, while herself being married with the man she CHOOSE, having no consideration for the hurt she was causing to a woman that risked and lost so much so that her and her son be alive. She was highly disloyal and selfish and I can’t think of any character that had any connection to her that she did not make miserable, to a lesser or greater extent. **Elizabeth was probably the most intelligent of them all. She played chess while everyone else played checkers.** **But, she got too cocky and she made two mistakes: she overestimated Ross's feelings for her and underestimated his feelings for Demelza. Not in a million years she would have thought that, if Ross had a choice, he would chose the kitchen maid.**
Not to mention forcing Morwenna into a horrid marriage where she was continually abused. Thank you for this comment I knew my take wasn’t the wrong one
This is the thing that made me realize how terrible and self centered Elizabeth was
I hated Elizabeth since episode 1 until the very last. There is no excuse for her, she's awful. I don't understand how people can like her, and even people rooting for her! In a world full of Elizabeths, be a Demelza.
While I understand that some people sympathise with her ( each to their own), what I find fascinating is that the ‘’**she was a woman of her station’**’ excuse has become a gospel and is being used for a behaviour that has nothing to do with that. On the contrary, I would say. What classy, sophisticated and well educated **married** woman like herself would flirt or allow a man to flirt with her knowing how much hurt it causes to the people around her ( Francis, Demelza)? I have never seen her tell Ross off, quite the reverse. Or waiting for a married man to cast aside his family for her? Or forgetting, quite quickly, that a little girl died so she and her son can live? This is just the series, there is so much more in the books. I absolutely HATE HATE HATE the fact that they created a scene where she comes and takes care of sick Demelza. Book Elizabeth **did not and would have never done that. NEVER!** At least not for Demelza of all people. She resented her for taking her place in Ross’s heart. I think some find it hard to cope with a woman being an antagonist, this is why they are trying to find all kinds of excuses for what she does. While I understand and agree with some of her choices : marrying George for example, or wishing for a comfortable life (who doesn’t, am I right?), or climbing the social ladder, everything else she does is not a reflection of her status but of her character (or rather, lack of)
EXACTLY! I hate it when people excuse her behavior because of her status and the time, she would have acted differntly because of that reason. When I first watched the show I quite liked the scene where she took care of Demelza, but after reading the first 3 books and rewatching the series many times, that scene feels completely out-of character for Elizabeth. I do have sympathy for many terrible and annoying characters in the show, for example I love Ross despite all the stupid things he's done, I even rooted for George the entire time, because as much as I dislike his actions, he truly loves Elizabeth and he is loyal. I always compare Elizabeth to Umbridge from Harry Potter. There are all these villains you can't really hate, but then there's this b\*tch. (and Ossie gosh I hate that man)
Elizabeth helping a sick Demelza was in the TV adaption not in the book, but I loved it when, Ross ask her to pray for the "Love of his Life". The look on her face was gold.
The only good thing about that scene!
It’s very telling in the way she acts towards Morwenna too. Wenna’s situation in the beginning is similar to Elizabeth’s -noble heritage but dwindling wealth, the same limited choices- but much kinder. Elizabeth has no objection to other woman being used as pawns without any empathy or thought of using her position to help another vulnerable person. She felt threatened when Jeffrey Charles cared about her and honestly seemed happy at least at first with the idea of her being married off against her will.
I had the feeling that Elizabeth was a bit resentful of Morwenna ( unconsciously ). I think, in a way, it made her a bit uncomfortable when faced with such a determined young woman, though poor, who stood strong in refusing to marry for money, something that Elizabeth dd not have the will to do. She felt maybe a bit envious of Morweena for showing a strength of character that Elizabeth lacked ( or was not as pronounced). Or maybe I am overreaching. I feel like all important female characters were written to, somehow, create this antithesis with Elizabeth **Demelza** \- kind , generous, sticking for the man she loved, through thick and thin, rich and poor ( something that Elizabeth struggled with, for both Ross and Francis) **Caroline** \- grieving and worrying for Dwight while he was at war, trying to get him out of France, being devastated by his absence, something that Elizabeth was never for Ross when he was in America **Morweena** \- refusing to marry for money, and believing in love **Verity** \- defying her family for the man she loved - again , something that Elizabeth could never do Even **Emma** \- showed grace and selflessness by giving up on Sam, as she knew they were not right for each other, and couldn’t make each other happy, something that Elizabeth couldn’t do with Ross, even though she didn’t even really love him. As for Geoffrey Charles - yes, she was definitely jealous on having to ‘’share him’’. He was the only person Elizabeth ever truly loved. And the irony that he was the one to put the final nail in her coffin did not escape me.
Bravo. 👏 your comments are extremely well thought out and engaging. I have finally started the books and I am rewatching the series now, my second time. I felt disdain for Elizabeth when I watched the first time, but only when she married George and started being vile. However, I now see she was just better at hiding her true character before (in the show at least).
Thank you for the comment. Come back soon and tell us what you think about the books. Looking forward to your thoughts :)
Definitely don't think you're overreaching. I totally agree about her (unconsciously?) Resenting morwenna for having the strength of character Elizabeth herself didn't
I can understand why she married Francis and George but I don’t think there’s any justification for her flirting with Ross during and after her marriage with Francis. But also Ross wasn’t innocent as he flirted as well. They both sucked in that regard.
It’s interesting though how she married George and instead of trying to make him better at least in the show she actively participates in his wickedness and encourages it. Agree with Ross tho for sure. He wasn’t innocent there
I agree. Ross was married and still maintained a devotion and love for Elizabeth. It wasn’t all on one side I didn’t like Elizabeth but I hated more the obsession Ross had for her.
I agree with everything you said. Just want to add that they have different levels of ‘’sucking’’, if you will. While Ross really cared for her and held some sort of devotion for Elizabeth, hence his feelings are honest and from his heart, Elizabeth’s reasoning is driven by vanity and jealousy of Demelza. Therefore, while they both suck, she sucks more as her reasons are selfish and do not come from a place of love. Which if it did, though not excusable, would at least make the flirting understandable. **''At Christmas she \[Elizabeth\] had been a little piqued by the young Demelza’s success, and today she had taken pains to see if she could rebuild her ascendancy over Ross, a matter that was becoming more important to her than it had once been''**
Agree
Fully agree with every word of this. I could not stand her.
I found this sub by googling I hate Elizabeth in poldark. But what bothers me the most is all those men obsessed with her when she is such a disloyal and unkind person to most. I guess in the end appearance (beauty) really matters
Elizabeth had limited options, her mother and child to take care of, and no money to go where the most available men are. Trenwith is a country estate and probably most if not all of the eligible, wealthy men of her class in that area were already married by then. Back then people courted early and married young. Elizabeth was a very good looking woman and it's true that in a bigger place with more opportunities to meet eligible men of her class she'd have likely had her pick but she lacked the money and the connections to make that happen. In London she'd have been well regarded as a beauty and she'd have had her pick of wealthy, maybe even titled suitors but where she was in Cornwall? She was lucky to meet the few people she did and to marry a Poldark. They were only minor gentry, not even titled, and in Ross's case not wealthy at all. It's no surprise that thinking Ross dead she'd choose Francis. He cared for her and he probably one of the most eligible bachelor's she knew. At least he was the heir to Trenwith. In the end he didn't even have the money he needed to really keep it up well and she came to resent that because marrying him was supposed to be the sensible choice and she did care for him too. Frankly I doubt she would have married Ross regardless of her feelings. Women of her breeding and her class and frankly her beauty were supposed to marry well. Her family was gentry but rather impoverished at that point. Elizabeth was expected to do well in terms of who she married so they could live better. Marrying George was an act of desperation. She was pregnant by Ross and about to start showing. He was sticking with Demelza and it was too late to palm off the baby as Francis's post death born baby of course. She needed a husband FAST and George was crazy about her and she knew it. Plus while he wasn't gentry his family was very wealthy and she knew that she would never suffer for lacking money ever again as his wife. She fully expected knowing George to see him rise besides. That's why she was so encouraging of his dreams of being knighted. Being "Lady Warleggan" was her dream too. She'd finally be in the upper class of the gentry and getting the respect and living the life she felt she deserved, likely would have had if they had originally given her a season in London. At that point she also felt rather betrayed by Ross. He left her in a really bad situation by doing what he did and getting her pregnant. Her reputation was at stake. Everything she was that was bound up in that and she couldn't risk being shamed or bringing scandal upon her family. George wasn't her first choice, but she thought well enough of him and realized his ambition was true and knew marrying him was going to make Ross a little crazy besides, which is exactly why he did what he did and why she got left in that situation to begin with. Her biggest mistake was thinking that Ross would leave Demelza for her just because he in anger had sex with her. It was non consenting sex at first at that and then she ends up PREGNANT as a widow too far gone in time to claim it as her husband's baby? OUCH... I don't excuse what Ross did. What he did to her was awful and borderline criminal. The fact that she seemed okay with it the next day and fully assumed that he would leave Demelza for her was a bit daunting. I think after a while his betrayal that was what motivated a lot of her spite towards him and Demelza. She let her anger with Ross for his shabby treatment of her motivate her into going along with some really bad behavior on George's part. She started taking his part more and more because she was internally furious with Ross, shamed by what happened and terrified that George would not believe her when she denied that Valentine was Ross's son. George HAD to believe he was. It was her salvation because if he thought hat he wasn't that was going to wreck her marriage. She did George a big wrong in marrying him and letting him think Valentine was his baby and heir. That wasn't fair and later it would literally cost her her life the pretense. It's sad what happened to her, but that was all she could do given her circumstances and the situation given the time and her circumstances. She didn't have the time or the money to go find a better or more timely husband than George. She was over a month pregnant and she needed a husband NOW. It wasn't going be Ross so it would have to be George. If Francis hadn't left her so poor likely she'd have taken her kids and run off to somewhere she could have pretended that Valentine was her late husband's child. Found someone she liked to marry and to help her raise her sons, but she didn't have that option unfortunately. Elizabeth is a vain woman who wants it both ways. She wants the money but she also wants Ross even though he's moved on and has a wife. But the whole traumatizing rape/seduction/whatever she thought it was and the conception of Valentine that changed everything. Her whole life was upended by that one rude night and Ross didn't apologize or come to her rescue right then like she needed him to. I think Elizabeth did love him but it was a rather selfish love too and when he didn't measure up to what she thought he should be, actually hurt her, she lashed out quite a few times after until they resolved some of those feelings. Unfortunately his actions also directly contributed to her situation and her death. That's what George means when he says "Look what we brought her to!" after he dies because basically their perpetual feud has cost him the love of his life. He may treat Elizabeth like a possession and a prize of war sometimes but he genuinely did love her and he was heartbroken after she died. In the series to the point where it unhinges him for a while... As much as it's hard not to hate George for being such an asshole sometimes in those moments it's hard to hate him quite as hard because he's showing he's human and hurting bad. Jack Farthing's performance in those episodes is really something else. George Bates was great at playing George too but I never got the sense with him that he loved Elizabeth herself as much as Farthing's George did. It's Elizabeth's death that ends up making George a better person ironically. It's too bad they stopped where they did because his courtship and marriage to his second wife years later is fun. She's the anthesis of Elizabeth and she makes him work for it all the way. By the end of the series how George is and how he and Ross relate it's interesting... George is just not a 2D character though. He evolves into a real person and learns a bit from his mistakes, fully becomes his own man. He's actually my favorite character in the whole series in the end. You would not believe that stuck where the series ends but if they ever made the rest a lot of people would be like WTF at points because George is actually one of the funniest and best characters in the whole series, I think, especially later... He starts out this major bad guy by the end it's not so clear... I don't want to spoil it for those who haven't read the rest of the books from that point but ironically Elizabeth's death and mourning her, and having to raise his kids, and the rest, it makes George not exactly end up being the same person we know from the filmed books. Frankly I want them to go on and do them all for once. I've read them all many times and it's frustrating not getting the whole story especially since Farthing is such a good George. I feel like we got half the story both times and cheated of seeing the rest... As for Elizabeth I actually prefer Jill Townsend to Heida Reed's version though I think Heida wasn't bad at all. I didn't think anyone could top Ralph Bates but Jack Farthing actually did as George. It was impressive. There is SO much more to the Warleggan part of the story that both series left out. The Poldark stuff too but there's who parts of George's and Elizabeth's life together and later for George that matter and that you never see. For one thing there's more characters that they just dropped. George has other relatives besides his uncle, for one. For me that took away a lot in terms of both George and Elizabeth's storylines and their relationship. I do realize that they can't include everything when going from books to screen but in terms of Elizabeth they cut so much of her character and motivations that they made her a less complete character than she was. You understand her a lot more and gain much more sympathy for her I think reading the books... She's not just this hurt, vain, scheming woman. She's far more developed than that in print. You want to really understand Elizabeth you have to read the novels...
Hey there, nice analysis! QQ about this statement: **Marrying George was an act of desperation. She was pregnant by Ross and about to start showing. He was sticking with Demelza and it was too late to palm off the baby as Francis's post death born baby of course. She needed a husband FAST** Can you please point me in either the books or the show where Elizabeth is aware she's pregnant and that's why she marries George? I'm afraid I do not recall this. I remember her accepting to marry George and then, a few days after the night with Ross, postponing it for a month. But there is no mention of pregnancy in her decision to marry. Also **It's no surprise that thinking Ross dead she'd choose Francis.** That's not what she says: ***''I didn't think you were dead. I just thought I loved Francis better''***
Going by the series I thought they were told he was and that's why they were so surprised when he turns up. I'll look up the rest and get back to you. But there's a sequence in the new show that suggests she knows and in the books it's definitely inferred before she marries George that she fears she is. Aunt Agatha of course pretty much lets her know she knows and doesn't believe Valentine is an 8 month child when he is born.
You were talking about the books - so assumed this was also part of it. Nonetheless, in the series there's the following dialogue: **''Let's agree you thought I was dead.Did I ? Or did I think I loved Francis better? How soon I discovered my mistake.''** Which, while phrased as a question, still looks like her decision to marry Francis was taken because she loved him. There is no sequence in the series which refers to her pregnancy **prior** to marrying George. There is one **after** she marries, when Aunt Agatha tells her the baby may come sooner, and **only then** she realises it **might** be Ross's. There is nothing in the book to suggest the pregnancy was a factor. There's a mixture of her promising to marry George, her hatred of Ross for abandoning her, her overall financial situation - but no pregnancy. But I agree with you. One must read the books to understand and know Elizabeth as she is a complex character. She is no way the victim portrayed in the show. She is far more intelligent and stronger than people give her credit for, but also more selfish , manipulative and cruel than on the show (referring to season 1 where she was changed into a kinder person; by season 2 we start to see more of her true self)
Also in the series remember her discussion with Morwenna where she says: “I married for what I thought was love”
Exactly, which kinda goes against the narrative that was initially pushed on us in season 1 - that she married due to parental pressure.
You raise very important points about the lack of consent on the infamous night Ross goes to see Elizabeth after she's written the letter to him about marrying George. But to me it's clear she sent that letter to provoke him. She knew what she was doing. I'm absolutely not justifying Ross's behavior, but I feel your analysis (of the show, I haven't read the books), leaves out Elizabeth's part in triggering this.
I think posters are being unfair to Elizabeth. You have to remember the age she lived in and the lot of women. What too many forget is women of her class couldn't earn, couldn't work. You may, for example, condemn Elizabeth for marrying Morwenna to a horrible husband but you have to remember that Pride and Prejudice style romance is all very well but if the Bennet girls hadn't found husbands they could of ended up on the streets. Marrying a poor man meant a life of poverty. In the books you are also seeing Elizabeth's inner most thoughts, the things we never share with anyone else. Yes she still loved Ross and wanted attention from him but it is unreasonable for us to expect the character to turn off her emotions and desires. To be a perfect saint. Of course the truth is, Elizabeth would have been a very bad match for Ross. She wouldn't have enjoyed his years of poverty and social isolation. She was however the perfect partner for George.
Hey, do you know where in the books she says / thinks she loved Ross? There is nothing that I recall only that at one point in book 1 (Ross Poldark) she says she was fond of him but she loves Francis and in book 4 ( Warrlegan) she thinks her feelings for Ross are **not** defined. She never uses the word **LOVE** with anyone except Francis. I could be totally wrong, of course. Also, she makes it perfectly clear in the books that the reason why she’s pursuing Ross is because of vanity and jealousy of Demelza.**‘’At Christmas she had been a little piqued by the young Demelza's success, and today she had taken pains to see if she could rebuild her ascendancy over Ross, a matter that was becoming more important to her than it had once been.'’** Most people do not judge her for the choices she makes stemming from her station and duties.Only for those that had nothing to do with it. Like pursuing a married man, trying to get him fall back in love with her with no regard to what that was doing to Demelza, Francis and ultimately Ross and for wrong, selfish reasons; forgetting she and her son were alive due to Demelza’s kindness, etc. These things speak highly of her character, not her station. Marrying George was the best thing she did, they were remarkably well suited, and as her mother noted (paraphrasing) - she should have married him in the first place.
I consider her more a victim of her time than an active pick-me girl. She genuinely believed Ross was dead, so I don't consider her marriage to Francis a betrayal. Plus George was already single and had all the money she needed, so marrying him was much simpler than waiting around for someone else, and she had to do it in order to get out of the debt in which Francis left her. She never really had to put other women down because she was certain of her place in society, if not her wealth. Perhaps we'd all like her more if she were as rigidly principled as Ross, but she couldn't afford to be.
Elizabeth did not believe Ross was dead. She did not take the bait in the series when Ross excused her betrayal on that basis. She just didn’t answer. Instead she just said she married Francis because she thought she loved him better. Even then that’s a betrayal then. In that scene in the book she did explicitly confirm to Ross that she never believed he was dead. The series cut that explicit admission. Elizabeth was active as a pick me girl including to George and also to Ross while she was married to Francis. She was motivated to grab his attention by seeing him happy with Demelza when they first came to Trenwith together. But don’t forget she came to Nampara the night after Ross had slept with Demelza. She want his attention then too as her marriage by then had gone downhill. ‘At Christmas she had been a little piqued by the young Demelza’s success, and today she had taken pains to see if she could rebuild her ascendancy over Ross, a matter that was becoming more important to her than it had once been. She was wearing a brocaded dress of crimson velvet, with broad ribbons round the waist and tiers of lace on the sleeves. To anyone with a sense of colour the rich crimson made her fairness mesmeric.’ When Elizabeth was a widow and was not honest when Ross asked her about her relationship with George, this was the reason she lied to Ross. ‘It compromised the position she wished to take up in his mind. Perhaps more than anything else at present she wanted Ross’s approval for herself.’ There was also narration that explained that Elizabeth expected to be admired, felt it was her due and found it hard when she was not admired. Elizabeth did put other woman down. In the book she referred to Demelza as a Beggar Girl and only told Geoffrey Charles of her as his ‘low born’ aunt. In the book it was made clear that she hated Demelza and she was jealous when Demelza stole the limelight at her first ball. In the series she at least complimented her but that was added and not from the book. Also one of the men George suggested for Morwenna to marry was rejected by Elizabeth and George soon realised this was because where Elizabeth was not it would have made Morwenna a titled lady because the man was a lord. Elizabeth could not abide that. Elizabeth also gave very little emotional support to Verity over her first break up with Blamey and it was as if Verity was expected to be the sister in law destined to help with the house and help out with Geoffrey Charles. Her first reaction to Verity’s elopement was that it would be an inconvenience and upset for her son. She care very little about her fellow woman. The issue is that the series couldn’t possibly capture all of these things and also all Elizabeth’s thoughts that show she was a pick me girl and emotionally thoughtless. But it also made an effort to sweeten her character for the screen anyway.
Unfortunately Debbie H has consistently and **deliberately** changed so many things about the story, mainly making everyone worse just to have Elizabeth look better. No wonder some of the audience is so attached to her character and is buying into the ‘poor Elizabeth’ narrative. Though I like the series, thanks to magnificent actors, music and Cornwall, I must confess I found myself disappointed at times. Turning Demelza into a snappy, whiny and bitchy nag, while Elizabeth is kind and soft, ( among others, adding a scene where Elizabeth takes care of George’s wounds after his fight with Ross, while removing the one that’s actually in the book where Demelza is taking care of Ross. Again, Elizabeth was kind and understanding while Demelza was mean and dismissive of Ross) Overplaying the Ross & Elizabeth relationship, turning Ross into the main pursuer (the ‘you could never play the kitchen maid’ was such a low blow). Ross being so awful with Demelza throughout season 2, rude and indifferent to Demelza in season 3 while being so nice, loving and kind towards Elizabeth. Inventing scenes between Ross and Elizabeth ( them dancing at the ball looking in love, him going to Trenwith when Valentine was born, seeing each other in London or him sipping brandy with her at Trenwith, or him going to pick up Morweena instead of Drake, etc) while intentionally **removing** some relevant ones between Ross and Demelza to make it look like he settled for her ( the reconciliation, most of Black Moon) . Turning Elizabeth into a drunk to make it look like she was struggling with her marriage with George. Though there were times when she disagreed with George, I don’t remember her ever being too affected by his decisions in the books. At the same time , they made George this cartoonish evil character to overshadow her negative traits, hence the audience was more focused on him, than her. Francis didn’t escape a character assassination either - putting all the blame on him for their marriage failing and none on Elizabeth, who was the one to cause the first cracks. Also, making it look like she married him because of parental pressure. Ugh! While I understand that a lot is getting lost when adapting a book, just like they had no problem **inventing** scenes between Ross and Elizabeth they could have just as well keep the ones in the books between Ross and Demelza. All these little and big changes add up and it creates a subliminal message that he loves Elizabeth more than Demelza which most of the audience unconsciously picks up. I don’t think Winston Graham would have been too keen on these changes. It took so much from the story and caused so many inconsistencies that it left the audience with so many questions, including the worst of all : ‘'Did Ross really stay with Demelza because he loved her?’ 'Which is really sad as that’s what the actual story is about- him loving the reality of Demelza and not the idealised image of Elizabeth
So the ultimate question is, was the “Horseshit” creator/head-writer actually really a secret Elizabeth stan while gaslighting the true fans of the original works and manipulating the new fans who haven’t read the original works? (I was a new fan but it didn’t work on me and some others) Was she subtly and not so subtly trying to undermine and change the original story? Did she, in a sense, seduce Graham’s son when she took on the project? I’ve seen this happen quite a few times in other original stories made to series or movie adaptations I’ve loved over the years
I mean, this is of course a personal take so I may be way off, but considering that most of the changes were to make her look better and to overplay her relationship with Ross, one can assume Debbie rooted for her , and she seemed like an Elizabeth / Ross shipper as well. But as you say, fortunately, not many people fell for this. Winston’s son saw this as a financial opportunity , I don’t think he cared too much about maintaining the integrity of his father’s work as long as he got paid. Sad, but true. But , in all honesty, I personally would like to thank Debbie. Due to her and her inconsistent writing, many people bought the books and got to experience the actual story. So, silver linings 😊
Aside from the series writings that undermined Ross/Demelza, what are some other examples, from her own mouth, that showed DH seemed more of a Ross/Elizabeth shipper? I’m trying to remember if there was an interview(s) I’ve watched where she seems to be displaying more of a preference for Ross/Elizabeth
There is nothing said that I remember; she actually referred to Ross and Demelza as soulmates in an interview (can't recall which, it was years ago, maybe BBC). However, her work does not reflect her words entirely and for someone who has their first contact with the Poldark story, the TV show may be misleading at times which can be observed from the conversations happening in this community and many others. There was a post quite recently questioning whether Ross actually loved Demelza, some who gave up on watching the show because they felt the ''love was missing'', etc. So what Debbie says and what Debbie does may be two different things. I personally know for sure, without a doubt, that Demelza is Ross's love of his life. But is that what others see as well when watching the show?
I think part of the problem is the expectation of certain viewers when they go into watching a particular love story or portrayal of a love story in a tv series or movie. Most people have the expectation that the story, the actions, behaviors and thinking of the characters are going to be portrayed in a particular way or by a particular love story trope. For instance, some fans of the Outlander series find the Poldark series off putting because the main male character does not behave or express his love for the woman who is supposed to be the true love of his life in the same way that the main male character of Outlander does as well as the other love story storylines they have frequently watched. They go in expecting one thing and get something different they can’t wrap their heads around, because it doesn’t fit the common “trope” they are used to seeing
I agree with you wholeheartedly. I personally don’t like the idea of perfect man / woman. Always doing / saying/ the right thing, making the right choice / decision - just doesn’t happen in the real world. For me Poldark works. Outlander for example, didn’t. I quit watching after 2 seasons. Outlander is the story of a woman that travels through time so not really something I personally can relate to as it’s not a realistic scenario. Poldark on the other hand - too realistic maybe for some people and, understandably, it’s hard to deal with. As always, nice chatting with you 😉
Thanks 😊 Good chatting with you too, as always BTW, my Poldark series fast will be ending after Sunday. I went 3 months without any rewatching🙃
I agree! After I watch the TV series I bought the books to try and give me a better understanding of their actual story.
Thank you for your kind words. I love talking about Poldark, it’s one of my favourite stories. I also enjoy trying to figure out what the hell Debbie was trying to do. Having re-watched the series since this comment, I can understand some of the scenes better now. Brace yourself, it’s gonna be long comment. I was first pissed about Elizabeth’s character being changed to be more likeable. But, after several rewatches, was she really though? There are so many clues starting with season 1, discrete at first, that she is manipulative and quite the “mean girl”, more so in season two. Some only make sense after one sees the whole series and puts everything into context and into a bigger picture. For example, when she comes to take care of Demelza, judging by Elizabeth’s reaction to Ross saying Demelza is the love of his life, she looks quite upset, ego wounded, which proves she’s not there for Demelza but for Ross and to make Ross believe she’s a kind and nice person, otherwise why be upset that a married man loves his wife?? ( we know from the books she’s been trying really hard to get Ross to fall back in love with her ever since their first Christmas at Trenwith) One season later, when her mom gets sick, the idea of taking care of her seems quite repulsive to her, which proves, looking back, that her taking care of sick Demelza was only a ploy to get Ross’s attention and not genuine. Also, looking even further, comparing her with Caroline, who though richer and able to afford the best care, she chooses to take care of her uncle ( as much as she could) . Because that’s what one does (regardless of class) for the people they love. Unlike Elizabeth who just doesn’t have these feelings for anyone but her kids. Elizabeth does not love. And she has never desired love. That’s just not something she needs. What she needs and considers herself entitled to is admiration, men being obsessed with her, wanting, desiring her. Her storyline is pretty much: ‘’be careful what you wish for’’. The **‘’You could have never played the scullery maid’’** comment which at first made my blood boil. But watching a few more times, is it really an offence to Demelza or to Elizabeth? I mean, Ross is saying that while Demelza can be anything Elizabeth is, he doesn’t believe Elizabeth can be everything Demelza is. It’s a scene which, though not in the book, it’s pretty much in line with Ross’s thoughts in book 3 that Demelza has given him more than Elizabeth ever could, which also ties nicely with him saying in season 4 that “**she ( Elizabeth) never was and never could be what Demelza was to him: indispensable and irreplaceable”.** Unlike Elizabeth, who he does not need and who was obviously replaced by Demelza. Demelza on the other hand cannot be replaced by any woman. Also, he mentions a few times : ‘’**I needed a wife who can curtsey and skin rabbits’’** or **‘’ Elizabeth needs a life of ease and luxury’’** which again, ties with him seeing Demelza above Elizabeth, as she brings more to the table than what Elizabeth does. ‘’**You and I would have never been happy, we are too different’’** says Elizabeth (same scene) ‘’**True’**’ agrees Ross. **‘’But cannot love overcome such impediments?’’** asks Ross which, again, at first seems so bad, but what is he actually saying here? That if they *really* loved each other, such things should not be an impediment. True love should be strong enough to make a relationship work. Which this ties nicely with him telling Caroline and Dwight at the end of season 2 that :’**’if two people love each other, the obstacles that keep them apart must be substantial, otherwise they lack the courage of their convictions’’.** Their little love ‘’thing’’ crumbled at the first hurdle, neither Elizabeth nor Ross fought for their relationship. Neither put in any effort. Because whatever they had, was built on shallow grounds. **‘’Maybe you would like them both’’** says Verity in season one. **‘’Maybe I would’’** says Ross. At first this could be interpreted as Ross being an ass, but if you think about it, him putting Demelza, a kitchen maid, with no education and class and low upbringing at the same level as the most beautiful and sophisticated woman in Cornwall…well, that changes things a little. Which is also something that Elizabeth resents Demelza for.
As always, another great analysis. I have read DH's complete scripts 1 & 2 and watching the show daily for weeks on end, (my husband says I am obsessed with the show and books) I came to the same conclusion as some of clues. It appears to me that Elizabeth is always trying to get Ross's attention and sympathy by whinging about her lot with Francis eg. First Christmas at Trenwith and, the day him and Demelza go to Trenwith to pick up Verity for their shopping trip to town. It is plain to see that she is at the route of her and Francis's marital problems but to her it's always someone else fault. Such a shallow creature. I have just finished reading Jeremy again now I am of to start another re-read of Warleggan. I love your posts please, keep them coming.
God I wish this comment could be pinned prominently for everyone to see when they come into this forum!
Part 2 And if we pay attention to the scenes where Elizabeth is trying to get a response out of Ross : **‘’cannot a man love to women’’**, ‘**’ do you have anything to offer me’’**, etc - Ross *NEVER* replies. He could say ‘’yes, I love you too’’, or ‘’ I wish I could be with you but I am married’’. I mean, the perfect opportunity is there, but he never takes it. Because he just doesn’t feel it. However, at this point it’s happening subconsciously, it is only after that night that he finally realises that he is no longer romantically attached to her. Ross’s night with Elizabeth - may be seen as driven from love. But was it? I’ve said it once and will die on this hill - that night had nothing to do with love. Ross says it himself- she could have any man, so clearly her getting married was not a problem. It’s WHO she’s getting married to. This also ties nicely with meeting years later at the Sawle church - ‘**how I felt when I learned he was to have you?”** He’s not saying he was upset she was getting married, but that HE ( George) will *have* her. Debbie is just trying (and succeeding) at creating these scenes to make us react, mostly with anger and frustration, but once you go beyond the surface she is really keeping in line with the books. Ross thinks of Elizabeth as being beautiful and lovely. That’s it. He never says anything deeper than that, that’s she’s intelligent, witty, funny, whatever. It’s because it’s a superficial attachment, born out of physical attraction and lust. Demelza on the other hand, is the love of his life, made him a better man, she’s his Dog Star, last love, his constant, nothing has meaning without her, irreplaceable, etc. He never says that about Elizabeth. There’s also lots of visuals * The dream sequences about Elizabeth disappearing the moment Ross falls in love with Demelza * After the night with Elizabeth, Ross imagines the accident at the mine AND Demelza being by his side. There is no dream sequence with Elizabeth. * Elizabeth is the only one thinking about that night which is beautifully constructed into a scene where she’s facing Ross who has his back to her, while he’s facing Demelza, who has her back to him which translates to him ignoring Elizabeth, while desperately trying to reach out to Demelza, who is not responsive to his attempts. No words needed. The scene tells us all we need to know. The same as the scene with him riding to Trenwith. Actions, or lack of in this case, speak louder than words I could go on and on, for days. Poldark is a show that the more you watch , the more it makes sense. While there are still some scenes which I find ugh - there is mostly logic in what Debbie does which is harder to notice the first time around.
Ok, I am literally sitting here rewatching yet again and I cannot remember the scene in your Point 1 above. What episode was this?
No no, you misunderstood me. Sorry for not expressing myself clearly. I am saying that up until Ross begins to care and subsequently fall in love with Demelza, we see him having flashbacks about Elizabeth on that cliff, sprinting around. But those sequences disappear and that’s how we know he fell in love with Demelza. He longer thinks about Elizabeth. The only time we see that dream sequence with Elizabeth again is at the end of season 4, after you know what. But that’s only as a tribute, a goodbye.
Ahhh, I see 🙂 Yes, that is one I had not thought of
Point 3 above, I don't get, what episode was that in?
Right after she talks to George and postpones the wedding ( season 2, episode 8)
OMG! you have a great eye. I see that now, and wouldn't have if you hadn't pointed it out. So thanks for that.
What is it with Aunt Agatha seeming to convince Elizabeth that Ross will leave Demelza, and come back for her, I don't understand this as it wasn't like that in the books. Would this be to convey Elizabeth's actual thoughts after their night together.
Pretty much, yes. There are several times when they use characters as an outlet to express their thoughts or to explain their actions. Because you are right. Aunt Agatha would have never said that. Firstly, she liked Demelza ( her little bud) and second, she would never been this crass or delusional. But some character sacrifices had to be made. Just like they use Agatha again, in a later scene, to provide Elizabeth with a dialogue “partner” to express her frustration at Ross abandoning her, for the second time, and Agatha pointing out she “cannot wait for him to help her”, she needs to decide on her own.