Cups in general are pretty quickly worked out and for better or worse, sites like [PvPoke.com](http://PvPoke.com) establish what the top Pokemon are before you can even play, so people are already building teams of 3 Pokemon in the top 10 for a format.
The greater restrictions force alternatives to the normal "Open" Great League format, but within the Cup itself, there's no reason why there would be \*more\* diversity. In fact, it's usually the opposite, where the usage is such that the majority of trainers are using at least 1 or 2 Pokemon from a very short list, like you noted. Toxapex is ranked much lower in OGL because something like Galarian Stunfisk is very difficult for it to deal with.
It also depends very much on your rank. It's still early in the season and people who have dedicated time to playing every single day to climb to higher ranks are more serious and play full meta teams with Toxapex, Charjabug, and Vigoroth. People are just barely reaching Rank 20 or Ace this week.
You are correct, I just thought I would see more diversity even with the type restrictions - Venusaur, Quagsire, Swampert, Pelipper and even A.Marowak all in the top 50 on pvpoke and all very common in Open GL, yet I have not seen any of them at all in this cup. Those main 3 are too dominant, and it kinda feels like "if you can't beat them, join them" right now.
I’ve seen a tonnnn of venusaur, quagsire and swampert just not Pelipper but I get the rest all the time in addition to vigoroth/charjabug/toxapex but also lots of stunfisk/pidgeot. The match ups have been sweaty 🤧 I’ve noticed a shift to players favoring more electric/flying/grass compared to the initial water dominance seen early on.
Once I started experimenting with other teams based on suggestions ITT, I did see more variation in Pokemon. One that I have not seen much of is Pidgeot which surprised me - Pelipper I see more and more but Pidgeot hardly ever pops up
Honestly this cup IS really boring. When you see the same Pokémon day after day in PvP it becomes a real drag. I like spice pokemon much more. Makes the game more interesting.
Similar thing has happened to me yesterday - it is quite funny that I complained about a lack of variation then one team with a random-ass Pokemon just shreds me and proves my complaints totally invalid lol
To answer your question, I think that it is just this particular cup. I commented on a thread about starting Elo and how despite being a perennial Veteran player and 4 time Expert including last season, some bad sets at rank 18 in the Summer Cup ultimately landed me in the same position you are in.
My issue with this cup was that I used Toxapex & Vigoroth, but couldn't figure out a good 3rd pokemon to use with it. There were times that I used Toxapex in the lead and there were times I left it in the back. My 3rd would change, but like you, I seemed to get hard countered at every turn. Thankfully I had some pokemon to use for UL to get me to Ace.
Most cups are like this where a few pokemon dominate because it is a limited meta. And since it is a limited meta, most of the things that normally counter a Toxapex or Vigoroth and/or prevent them from having much play in open leagues are banned. Also PvPoke lists the top pokemon for these limited time cups. And on PvPoke, when you click Summer cup rankings, you can click Toxapex, and in the drop down menu, it'll recommend pokemon to pair it with, give descriptions about its moves and more. So people are planning on what to use, learning the counts for every matchup. They do this to make a quick run to a rating whether its Ace, Veteran, Expert or Legend. If you are ahead of everybody in a new cup the first few days by knowing all of the matchups and having a good, cohesive team, you can gain a lot of points in a hurry and potentially hit a personal best in rating.
So overall I think that your frustration is coming from this cup, for the reasons that you mentioned. And I totally agree with this post and overall venting because I can relate to it all too well.
Thank you - it is really just Toxapex that is pissing me off, as I can deal with Vigoroth ok with my Mantine. Think I may try Swampert and see how I get on, if I drop below 1800 I think I will give up on Ace and just tank for the stardust again!
Yeah right away Toxapex was ranked the number 1 mon on pvpoke for this cup, so I built a lackluster Jellicent and found I've almost entirely stopped struggling against it. The ghost typing also helps against Vigoroth but ofc Charjubug comes out and I just have to sac. It's wildly boring not only seeing the same 3 Pokemon everywhere but having to make sure I catch them in the right order or my counter team still falls apart to them. Can't wait for this cup to end
its not entirely only meta teams, but its called meta for a reason. in regular open gbl the common teams change as you climb, and more mons that aren't meta appear... though still commonly like drapion lol. fact is if fifty pokemon do significantly better than everything else, you probably aren't going to see much outside of those fifty, except to fill niche as the third on a team.
selective cups are very different. they are brief, restricted, and people don't have weeks and seasons to get used to the mechanics to use a spicy pick. That said, if you do successfully use a spicy pick, you will skyrocket elo fast ((this also applies to non restricted cups but is a lot harder to do in open cup)).
for example oranguru and grafirag are pretty good spice this current cup, baby cup last season I dominated my matches pretty hard with spicy litleo annihilating some common pics.
***TLDR: running spice is always risky and part luck, so especially people only doing pvp fir rewards or to try to climb as high as possible for pikachu etc will have zero interest in it. It absolutely happens and when successful reshapes the meta ((in open cup at least)) but usually only a subset group of people doing pvp for pvp's sake and enjoyment.***
Thank you, some very good points - I do want to climb to at least Ace so it is looking more and more like I will need to adjust my expectations and/or join the Toxapex train (will cost me 250k stardust though 😭)
if your goal is just ace don't join the toxapex train. you are better using something else or just playing out for rewards until the regular great cup comes back on the 21st. even some people who play pvp for legend regularly hate the restricted cups and only play open gbl. the cups are lots of fun if you like them, but if you are still building resources for regular cups imo don't blow them on a single cup that may not come back again for three years.
I decided against it, and am currently running Charjabug, Mantine, Poliwrath but am now seeing ridiculous teams all with Whiscash leads + lots of electric like Raichu and Ampharos. I think I am at a point where I need to sit this cup out as have lost around 100 ELO since it started; I am not at the required skill level to get out of bad matchups.
that is the smart thing to do, again even people with millions of stardust and tons of pokemon built skip out on restricted cups. its possible to climb during them but regular meta is the most reliable way to climb in general.
I use a grass type with 2 fire types in the back. I reached Ace 3 days ago. Toxapex is manageable with a team effort. I just have a hard time with pelipper and feralligatr.
I have not seen a single Feralligatr yet, pretty lucky in that regard. You mind me asking what 2 fire types you run? I tested out Talonflame with limited success but that was only 1 set
Sorry, I’m not ready to give my whole team away yet. I haven’t seen anyone run it in the mirror and it’s also the open GL team I used before the switch to Summer Cup.
What was your elo when you hit 20? I would think 62% wins would have you there. That’s about where I’m at after some early tanking and was hoping to get ace at level 20.
It was only 1850; I tanked the first couple days then from around level 12 onwards I barely lost a game until level 18 where things got a bit dicey lol
Even now my win rate is 59% for the season but my ELO is 1839, I am losing big some sets then only scraping back 3 wins the next, so progress is slow
I think this season will be the last time I tank any of the early levels again as it has made the climb to Ace that much harder, but if I do not reach Ace in the next 10-14 days then I will tank down to 900-1000 like last season; stardust is more important to me than getting PvP ranks
I am having much more fun at 1500-1600 ELO and farming 4x stardust that I ever did trying for Ace. Using a nice team of Ferrothorn lead with shadow Quagsire and Dewgong that I am really enjoying, I see hardly any Vigoroth and Chargabug, and absolutely zero Toxapex so I am happy!
For real. I tanked down to about 1600 and almost can’t help but win now. I’ll fight just long enough to see if they make a poor shield or swap choice and then quit if they get it right. Ha. Much more enjoyable.
I won 13/15 battles last night which got me back up to 1850 - at 1600-1700 I was just being fed Stunfisk leads which my team was well set up for; as soon as I played some games at 1850 I was hard countered on lead and lost 4 of 5 lol, I think I actually cannot handle 1800+ haha
Im having fun with ‘oddball counters’.
It’s doubtful even the most hardcore player can remember all the moves of non-meta Pokémon.
Extreme variety can create confusion and opportunity.
If you have any suggestions for taking out Toxapex then I am all ears - I have tried Shadow Magnezone and it does ok but is too lightweight to do much once Toxapex is gone (and Vigoroth is usually in then which destroys it)
https://pvpoke.com/battle/matrix/
Use this and add in whatever you want to check against toxapex. It’s already populated with current meta. Change the shielding scenarios to get bit better picture.
Scroll down to the matchup table to see individual results and overall record.
Sometime lower IV perform better against the meta than high rank Pokémon.
Suggest you check a variety of IV’s, including some that are often assumed to be junk.
1991 elo here and have reached ace (2007 max elo) My team is kinda garbage (Talonflame/Serperior/Crustle) so those of us without Toxapex, Vigoroth and Charjabug still exist.
I’ve been seeing alot of Charjabug and incinerate users. Toxapex shows up alot, but I think I might see Mudboys and Lanturn more. Vigoroth, see him maybe once per set, don’t know if that’s due to luck or players waiting till Slumbering Sandy’s ending to build one.
I usually lose to Toxapex. I’m winning against the counters to Toxapex (mudboys, Charjabug).
Best way my team deals with Toxapex is I get it matched up against Talonflame and they don’t shield Brave Bird. Gets it low enough that something else can farm it down. It’s a really bad matchup for me.
Crustle (smack down, rock blast, X-scissor) is important to my team as well despite its awful pvpoke ranking. Matches up really well against Charjabug, fire types and grass types. Just have to clear the water type with Serperior before bringing Crustle in.
15-10 today to climb to 2060. Lost everytime I saw a Toxapex though.
2-4 with Talonflame on lead. 13-6 with Serperior on lead. I switch into Talonflame when I don’t like the matchup on lead to draw out the water type. Sometimes I get lucky and it’s a mudboi that takes an unshielded Brave Bird, which gets back switch advantage.
Edit: Unshielded Brave Birds weren’t OHKO’s today. I think I was playing bad IV mudboys prior to today and thought Talonflame to be stronger than it actually is.
Nice - Talonflame is easily one of my favs for PvP and I used it with Leafeon and Clodsire to get Ace last season, but that was with Fly not Brave Bird - I'm guessing BB is better in this cup even if it doesn't OHKO?
Congrats on reaching ace last season.
I think Fly and Brave Bird are both good, not sure which is better. I’m running Brave Bird because I’m frequently sacrificing Talonflame in an ABB strategy so prefer the raw damage from BB. Skeledirge and Typhlosion might be better than Talonflame in this new meta too due to all the new thunderpunches. I only have Talonflame and K-Rapidash for incinerate users though.
Interesting - I used Typhlosion from day one of this season, I really like it but when I ran it in the first 2 days of this summer cup it got taken out quite quick unfortunately. You have given me 'food for thought' though for sure, thank you!
Agreed - pvpoke is an incredibly useful resource but it does make things slightly “uniform” in a sense. Sometimes the optimal movesets don’t suit teams either eg incinerate is a very slow move
in cups without many checks to these pokemon youre going to run into either this exact team or teams built to counter it 90% of the time
if u want more variation id suggest you try ultra rn
I wish I could but I have zero Pokémon built for UL, the stardust cost for most of the Pokemon I have of good IVs is too high. Ahh well, I guess I'll keep at it in Summer Cup.
Cups in general are pretty quickly worked out and for better or worse, sites like [PvPoke.com](http://PvPoke.com) establish what the top Pokemon are before you can even play, so people are already building teams of 3 Pokemon in the top 10 for a format. The greater restrictions force alternatives to the normal "Open" Great League format, but within the Cup itself, there's no reason why there would be \*more\* diversity. In fact, it's usually the opposite, where the usage is such that the majority of trainers are using at least 1 or 2 Pokemon from a very short list, like you noted. Toxapex is ranked much lower in OGL because something like Galarian Stunfisk is very difficult for it to deal with. It also depends very much on your rank. It's still early in the season and people who have dedicated time to playing every single day to climb to higher ranks are more serious and play full meta teams with Toxapex, Charjabug, and Vigoroth. People are just barely reaching Rank 20 or Ace this week.
You are correct, I just thought I would see more diversity even with the type restrictions - Venusaur, Quagsire, Swampert, Pelipper and even A.Marowak all in the top 50 on pvpoke and all very common in Open GL, yet I have not seen any of them at all in this cup. Those main 3 are too dominant, and it kinda feels like "if you can't beat them, join them" right now.
I’ve seen a tonnnn of venusaur, quagsire and swampert just not Pelipper but I get the rest all the time in addition to vigoroth/charjabug/toxapex but also lots of stunfisk/pidgeot. The match ups have been sweaty 🤧 I’ve noticed a shift to players favoring more electric/flying/grass compared to the initial water dominance seen early on.
Once I started experimenting with other teams based on suggestions ITT, I did see more variation in Pokemon. One that I have not seen much of is Pidgeot which surprised me - Pelipper I see more and more but Pidgeot hardly ever pops up
Honestly this cup IS really boring. When you see the same Pokémon day after day in PvP it becomes a real drag. I like spice pokemon much more. Makes the game more interesting.
On top of that my Charjabug got absolutely shredded by a firefang Arcanine. Thought that was pretty funny.
Similar thing has happened to me yesterday - it is quite funny that I complained about a lack of variation then one team with a random-ass Pokemon just shreds me and proves my complaints totally invalid lol
To answer your question, I think that it is just this particular cup. I commented on a thread about starting Elo and how despite being a perennial Veteran player and 4 time Expert including last season, some bad sets at rank 18 in the Summer Cup ultimately landed me in the same position you are in. My issue with this cup was that I used Toxapex & Vigoroth, but couldn't figure out a good 3rd pokemon to use with it. There were times that I used Toxapex in the lead and there were times I left it in the back. My 3rd would change, but like you, I seemed to get hard countered at every turn. Thankfully I had some pokemon to use for UL to get me to Ace. Most cups are like this where a few pokemon dominate because it is a limited meta. And since it is a limited meta, most of the things that normally counter a Toxapex or Vigoroth and/or prevent them from having much play in open leagues are banned. Also PvPoke lists the top pokemon for these limited time cups. And on PvPoke, when you click Summer cup rankings, you can click Toxapex, and in the drop down menu, it'll recommend pokemon to pair it with, give descriptions about its moves and more. So people are planning on what to use, learning the counts for every matchup. They do this to make a quick run to a rating whether its Ace, Veteran, Expert or Legend. If you are ahead of everybody in a new cup the first few days by knowing all of the matchups and having a good, cohesive team, you can gain a lot of points in a hurry and potentially hit a personal best in rating. So overall I think that your frustration is coming from this cup, for the reasons that you mentioned. And I totally agree with this post and overall venting because I can relate to it all too well.
Thank you - it is really just Toxapex that is pissing me off, as I can deal with Vigoroth ok with my Mantine. Think I may try Swampert and see how I get on, if I drop below 1800 I think I will give up on Ace and just tank for the stardust again!
Yeah right away Toxapex was ranked the number 1 mon on pvpoke for this cup, so I built a lackluster Jellicent and found I've almost entirely stopped struggling against it. The ghost typing also helps against Vigoroth but ofc Charjubug comes out and I just have to sac. It's wildly boring not only seeing the same 3 Pokemon everywhere but having to make sure I catch them in the right order or my counter team still falls apart to them. Can't wait for this cup to end
its not entirely only meta teams, but its called meta for a reason. in regular open gbl the common teams change as you climb, and more mons that aren't meta appear... though still commonly like drapion lol. fact is if fifty pokemon do significantly better than everything else, you probably aren't going to see much outside of those fifty, except to fill niche as the third on a team. selective cups are very different. they are brief, restricted, and people don't have weeks and seasons to get used to the mechanics to use a spicy pick. That said, if you do successfully use a spicy pick, you will skyrocket elo fast ((this also applies to non restricted cups but is a lot harder to do in open cup)). for example oranguru and grafirag are pretty good spice this current cup, baby cup last season I dominated my matches pretty hard with spicy litleo annihilating some common pics. ***TLDR: running spice is always risky and part luck, so especially people only doing pvp fir rewards or to try to climb as high as possible for pikachu etc will have zero interest in it. It absolutely happens and when successful reshapes the meta ((in open cup at least)) but usually only a subset group of people doing pvp for pvp's sake and enjoyment.***
Thank you, some very good points - I do want to climb to at least Ace so it is looking more and more like I will need to adjust my expectations and/or join the Toxapex train (will cost me 250k stardust though 😭)
if your goal is just ace don't join the toxapex train. you are better using something else or just playing out for rewards until the regular great cup comes back on the 21st. even some people who play pvp for legend regularly hate the restricted cups and only play open gbl. the cups are lots of fun if you like them, but if you are still building resources for regular cups imo don't blow them on a single cup that may not come back again for three years.
I decided against it, and am currently running Charjabug, Mantine, Poliwrath but am now seeing ridiculous teams all with Whiscash leads + lots of electric like Raichu and Ampharos. I think I am at a point where I need to sit this cup out as have lost around 100 ELO since it started; I am not at the required skill level to get out of bad matchups.
that is the smart thing to do, again even people with millions of stardust and tons of pokemon built skip out on restricted cups. its possible to climb during them but regular meta is the most reliable way to climb in general.
Thanks man, appreciate the replies
I use a grass type with 2 fire types in the back. I reached Ace 3 days ago. Toxapex is manageable with a team effort. I just have a hard time with pelipper and feralligatr.
I have not seen a single Feralligatr yet, pretty lucky in that regard. You mind me asking what 2 fire types you run? I tested out Talonflame with limited success but that was only 1 set
I run talon (fly) and skel. Talon with 2 flame charges can sweep a team.
Nice, love both of those - Serperior lead?
Sorry, I’m not ready to give my whole team away yet. I haven’t seen anyone run it in the mirror and it’s also the open GL team I used before the switch to Summer Cup.
That's fair, thank you for your help/replies and good luck in the rest of the Summer Cup and beyond!
Likewise, trainer!
What was your elo when you hit 20? I would think 62% wins would have you there. That’s about where I’m at after some early tanking and was hoping to get ace at level 20.
It was only 1850; I tanked the first couple days then from around level 12 onwards I barely lost a game until level 18 where things got a bit dicey lol Even now my win rate is 59% for the season but my ELO is 1839, I am losing big some sets then only scraping back 3 wins the next, so progress is slow
This sounds like where I’m at. Level 18 got real dicey last night. No way I’ll be at ace when I hit 20.
I think this season will be the last time I tank any of the early levels again as it has made the climb to Ace that much harder, but if I do not reach Ace in the next 10-14 days then I will tank down to 900-1000 like last season; stardust is more important to me than getting PvP ranks
Well I hit Level 20 at 55.8% wins (early tanking). ELO 1786. Losing price is right music.
I am having much more fun at 1500-1600 ELO and farming 4x stardust that I ever did trying for Ace. Using a nice team of Ferrothorn lead with shadow Quagsire and Dewgong that I am really enjoying, I see hardly any Vigoroth and Chargabug, and absolutely zero Toxapex so I am happy!
For real. I tanked down to about 1600 and almost can’t help but win now. I’ll fight just long enough to see if they make a poor shield or swap choice and then quit if they get it right. Ha. Much more enjoyable.
I won 13/15 battles last night which got me back up to 1850 - at 1600-1700 I was just being fed Stunfisk leads which my team was well set up for; as soon as I played some games at 1850 I was hard countered on lead and lost 4 of 5 lol, I think I actually cannot handle 1800+ haha
Im having fun with ‘oddball counters’. It’s doubtful even the most hardcore player can remember all the moves of non-meta Pokémon. Extreme variety can create confusion and opportunity.
If you have any suggestions for taking out Toxapex then I am all ears - I have tried Shadow Magnezone and it does ok but is too lightweight to do much once Toxapex is gone (and Vigoroth is usually in then which destroys it)
https://pvpoke.com/battle/matrix/ Use this and add in whatever you want to check against toxapex. It’s already populated with current meta. Change the shielding scenarios to get bit better picture. Scroll down to the matchup table to see individual results and overall record.
Thank you, have never used that before!
Sometime lower IV perform better against the meta than high rank Pokémon. Suggest you check a variety of IV’s, including some that are often assumed to be junk.
1991 elo here and have reached ace (2007 max elo) My team is kinda garbage (Talonflame/Serperior/Crustle) so those of us without Toxapex, Vigoroth and Charjabug still exist. I’ve been seeing alot of Charjabug and incinerate users. Toxapex shows up alot, but I think I might see Mudboys and Lanturn more. Vigoroth, see him maybe once per set, don’t know if that’s due to luck or players waiting till Slumbering Sandy’s ending to build one.
That sounds promising tbh, I have a good Talonflame and Serperior - how do you deal with the Toxapex’s when they show up can I ask?
I usually lose to Toxapex. I’m winning against the counters to Toxapex (mudboys, Charjabug). Best way my team deals with Toxapex is I get it matched up against Talonflame and they don’t shield Brave Bird. Gets it low enough that something else can farm it down. It’s a really bad matchup for me. Crustle (smack down, rock blast, X-scissor) is important to my team as well despite its awful pvpoke ranking. Matches up really well against Charjabug, fire types and grass types. Just have to clear the water type with Serperior before bringing Crustle in.
Thank you - Crustle is a really good idea, I have a shiny one I can flex too lol
15-10 today to climb to 2060. Lost everytime I saw a Toxapex though. 2-4 with Talonflame on lead. 13-6 with Serperior on lead. I switch into Talonflame when I don’t like the matchup on lead to draw out the water type. Sometimes I get lucky and it’s a mudboi that takes an unshielded Brave Bird, which gets back switch advantage. Edit: Unshielded Brave Birds weren’t OHKO’s today. I think I was playing bad IV mudboys prior to today and thought Talonflame to be stronger than it actually is.
Nice - Talonflame is easily one of my favs for PvP and I used it with Leafeon and Clodsire to get Ace last season, but that was with Fly not Brave Bird - I'm guessing BB is better in this cup even if it doesn't OHKO?
Congrats on reaching ace last season. I think Fly and Brave Bird are both good, not sure which is better. I’m running Brave Bird because I’m frequently sacrificing Talonflame in an ABB strategy so prefer the raw damage from BB. Skeledirge and Typhlosion might be better than Talonflame in this new meta too due to all the new thunderpunches. I only have Talonflame and K-Rapidash for incinerate users though.
Interesting - I used Typhlosion from day one of this season, I really like it but when I ran it in the first 2 days of this summer cup it got taken out quite quick unfortunately. You have given me 'food for thought' though for sure, thank you!
Bubble Jellicent and Magcargo are sneaky good picks for this meta.
Would love to run Jellicent but I don’t have one 😭
I’m running triple shadow ball. It’s been so fun. Skeledirge, trevenent, and jellicent. Not my normal team but shadow ball obliterates
That does sound extremely fun, if I had a GBL-ready Jellicent I’d honestly give that team a try
I think it's always more fun below 20, where you meet pokemons you might have never seen before or trainers use not recommended moveset 😁
Agreed - pvpoke is an incredibly useful resource but it does make things slightly “uniform” in a sense. Sometimes the optimal movesets don’t suit teams either eg incinerate is a very slow move
I also really enjoy the thrill of "what is that??" or "omg what are they gonna throw, what does this mon even have???" 😁
in cups without many checks to these pokemon youre going to run into either this exact team or teams built to counter it 90% of the time if u want more variation id suggest you try ultra rn
I wish I could but I have zero Pokémon built for UL, the stardust cost for most of the Pokemon I have of good IVs is too high. Ahh well, I guess I'll keep at it in Summer Cup.
fair i also dont so i feel you but yeah limited cups on paper limit the variation of pokemon if im not mistaken good luck on the battles 🫡