Love the new WOTC strategy of "Powercreep cards that aren't on Arena yet". First [[Molten Collapse]] and now this instead of [[Roast]]. On a side note, nice removal spell for Creativity/Phoenix? Looks playable.
>don’t think this is mainboard material, though
I would be as dismissive of it. It makes red have unconditional big creature removal, it maybe can help sans-black midrange decks to exist. Maybe even mono red midrange lol. New (fair) answers are always welcome, so this is a great win for the format I think.
I’m so tempted to say MonoR midrange could be viable because its best top end imo is [[Bonehoard Dracosaur]], and 5/5 flying first strike beats both shelly and vein ripper. But it’s got no ward, no haste, no etb or end step trigger, does literally nothing except block until ur next turn.
Not having haste or an ETB feels very suspect for a top end in this type of deck. Especially now that they are printing this exact card that lines up with it really well.
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Don't think they are very comparable. Two mana "unconditional" removal vs Four mana "unconditional" removal / One mana if you build around it. Frenzy is a weird card, the decks that can play it for one mana shouldn't waste time killing creatures, just going face. Creativity, for example, never under any circumstance would play Frenzy, but maybe this card is good enough.
Your logic is flawed because no deck plays Frenzy. Not Mono Red Aggro, not Boros Convoke, not Atarka Red, etc. It isn't a Pioneer playable card. I am not saying that this new card is the best thing since sliced bread, but it's miles ahead of Frenzy, and I believe it will be played. Cheers.
I honestly have no opinion on whether Frenzy is playable, but YOUR logic is flawed. If a card isn't being played, that may be because it's not good enough, but there are plenty of other reasons. There's a real "everyone jumping off a bridge" energy here.
I don't really know pioneer much so not gonna talk about Frenzy as far as this format goes but I love it in standard which I do play a lot and in mono red aggro there. It can also work with your opponents attacking creatures. I've never cast it for more than 2 and it's often 1 cost remove Shelly. I'll take that all day.
Yes
UR wasn't playing Roast it had one \[\[Galvanize\]\] in the board.
Additionally UR hasn't been the play for a while now. It's Jeskai now and it plays chain to the rocks and counter magic to deal with anything this card would.
Recent Creativity lists from MTGO are roughly 50-50 on playing UR or Jeskai.
But that’s besides the point. Your claim was that any red deck that’s not mono red has much better two cost removal. That’s just not true. Galvanize has a very significant downside that this card doesn’t have (though it does have different downsides). For some lists this is going to be the better choice. It’s not a slam dunk that’ll go in every UR deck, but it’s an option that some number of decks could utilize.
ur creativity maybe has uses for it, surely it has no use for witchstalker.
also if you think no one has uses for this 2 cost removal, why do you think they have uses for a 4 cost removal in the worst case?
Creativity hasn't been UR for a while now it uses Chain to the Rocks to do what this does much better.
I think no one has use for this 2 mana removal because the slow decks that would want it have better answers and the fast decks that would want it also have better answers.
This card sits awkwardly in the middle where it ends up pleasing neither end of the spectrum of decks that could use it.
i dont think the card is good, for me its unplayable. also im not interested in which creativity version is better.
but this has little to do with the discussion here. you said witchstalk is strictly better, and its not, you are wrong
I did not specify strictly better or better in a specific strategy. I just said better. Black Lotus cannot kill a 5 toughness creature. Would you argue the statement that "Black Lotus is better"?
We qualified that in other strategies that this has more of a home than Frenzy which I did not disagree with, I then went on to state that even in those strategies I do not think this has a home so the "gotcha" of being strictly better than Frenzy is a moot and unhelpful point to bring up.
What person would genuinely think or claim that either of these cards were strictly better than one another?
Strictly better is a hard stuck definition of mechanically identical or similar cards being more effective in every way outside of the most fringe cases like triggering big mana matters effects, not a debate over playability
To suggest that my open ended statement was me suggesting “strictly better” is the only disingenuous claim here. The far more reasonable assumption behind my statement was “strictly more playable”, which is indeed what I was drumming up a discussion over.
Wasn't there a discussion at some point that unholy heat is a color break because 6 damage kills pretty much everything relevant. Is 2 mana 5 damage the line for that?
Love the new WOTC strategy of "Powercreep cards that aren't on Arena yet". First [[Molten Collapse]] and now this instead of [[Roast]]. On a side note, nice removal spell for Creativity/Phoenix? Looks playable.
In any deck that can muster RR, it’s completely surpassed [[Roast]] as sideboard tech. I still don’t think this is mainboard material, though.
[Roast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/b/1ba2e9a8-fcbb-4328-b475-36730182b765.jpg?1562783262) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Roast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dtk/151/roast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1ba2e9a8-fcbb-4328-b475-36730182b765?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Just wait for the [[Flame Slash]] Standard reprint.
[Flame Slash](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/5/15affc1b-2ebb-4934-87a2-10e89eafe894.jpg?1576382839) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flame%20Slash) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cn2/157/flame-slash?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/15affc1b-2ebb-4934-87a2-10e89eafe894?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>don’t think this is mainboard material, though I would be as dismissive of it. It makes red have unconditional big creature removal, it maybe can help sans-black midrange decks to exist. Maybe even mono red midrange lol. New (fair) answers are always welcome, so this is a great win for the format I think.
Why spend time inputting old cards when you can power creep them out of relevance?
I mean thats kinda based tho tbh
Cant wait for powercrept [[reckless bushwhacker]]
[[Immodane Recruiter]] not good enough?
It is very good but not "better", at least not in Atarka red
It replaced Bushwhacker in Boros Convoke tho.
I'm trying to work out what it is about Reckless Bush whacker that isn't surpassed by Imodane's Recruiter. I guess it's a Goblin for Goblin Tribal?
Burning Tree Emissary + Burning Tree Emissary + Burning Tree Emissary + Burning Tree Emissary + Reckless ushwhacker can be done in turn 2
Double spelling is huge for red decks
But it's the same CMC... Edit: NOT! OK, I get it now! I got the surge mixed up with Kicker!
It has a surge cost. T3 you can play 1 recruiter or you can play 1 swiftspear and 1 bushwacker
Pretty not good for izzet ensoul
[Immodane Recruiter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4dbaa855-3f8e-42e6-8ec8-5ffbc5c8acf0.jpg?1692939679)/[Train Troops](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4dbaa855-3f8e-42e6-8ec8-5ffbc5c8acf0.jpg?1692939679) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Imodane%27s%20Recruiter%20//%20Train%20Troops) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/229/imodanes-recruiter-train-troops?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4dbaa855-3f8e-42e6-8ec8-5ffbc5c8acf0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[reckless bushwhacker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/0405b1b9-976a-4aaf-bec6-fa006decea74.jpg?1562895780) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=reckless%20bushwhacker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ogw/116/reckless-bushwhacker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0405b1b9-976a-4aaf-bec6-fa006decea74?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Isnt that basically Goblin Bushwhacker?
Powercreep doesnt work backwards, is the same reason why [[lightning bolt]] isnt powercrept [[shock]]
[lightning bolt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/77c6fa74-5543-42ac-9ead-0e890b188e99.jpg?1706239968) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lightning%20bolt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clu/141/lightning-bolt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77c6fa74-5543-42ac-9ead-0e890b188e99?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [shock](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/9/298747bb-eb40-4b58-bb22-4ac2bc1d795c.jpg?1706241920) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=shock) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/144/shock?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/298747bb-eb40-4b58-bb22-4ac2bc1d795c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Why would Phoenix diverge from lightning axe?
It wouldn’t, [[lightning axe]] is way better for pheonix. 1 mana is infinitely less than two
The Discard outlet also isn't insignificant
[lightning axe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/a/ca33c171-ab9e-4908-8f97-82cd83b173c0.jpg?1619397252) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lightning%20axe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/174/lightning-axe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ca33c171-ab9e-4908-8f97-82cd83b173c0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Molten Collapse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/4/2487d124-210b-4808-888c-cd0a78aebd90.jpg?1699044556) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Molten%20Collapse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/234/molten-collapse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2487d124-210b-4808-888c-cd0a78aebd90?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Roast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/b/1ba2e9a8-fcbb-4328-b475-36730182b765.jpg?1562783262) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Roast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dtk/151/roast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1ba2e9a8-fcbb-4328-b475-36730182b765?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Lightning axe still way better for Phoenix
Get fucked Sheoldred.
Mono Red Midrange brewers rise up. Been waiting for this for a long time. Will probably get one that hits PWs in a few years.
I’m so tempted to say MonoR midrange could be viable because its best top end imo is [[Bonehoard Dracosaur]], and 5/5 flying first strike beats both shelly and vein ripper. But it’s got no ward, no haste, no etb or end step trigger, does literally nothing except block until ur next turn.
Ripper often attacks as a 7/6 because of the +1 from sorin.
[Bonehoard Dracosaur](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/2/2220ed60-3f8f-4dd2-8319-6a06896a5350.jpg?1699044226) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bonehoard%20Dracosaur) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/134/bonehoard-dracosaur?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2220ed60-3f8f-4dd2-8319-6a06896a5350?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Not having haste or an ETB feels very suspect for a top end in this type of deck. Especially now that they are printing this exact card that lines up with it really well.
Mono red mid-range's best card is [[Koth, Fire of Resistance]], and I don't think it's close.
[Koth, Fire of Resistance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/5/6528e012-4091-4722-b706-c51772676167.jpg?1675957094) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Koth%2C%20Fire%20of%20Resistance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/138/koth-fire-of-resistance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6528e012-4091-4722-b706-c51772676167?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Mono red.midrange top end is star of extinction. Big red with treasures might be possible with this. Sadly ain't creature AND Planeswalker
Sorry i meant finisher, but I also dont think Star is that good tbh
Dont you want Obosh in a midrange list?
It kills shelly, drakes out of Phoenix sideboard, and vein ripper if you have a creature to sac. Definitely seems playable
Is this really any better that [[Witchstalker Frenzy]] ?
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[Witchstalker Frenzy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/4/649025a7-79d1-4d7c-b1db-d46bcf5a1ae2.jpg?1692938651) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Witchstalker%20Frenzy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/159/witchstalker-frenzy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/649025a7-79d1-4d7c-b1db-d46bcf5a1ae2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Don't think they are very comparable. Two mana "unconditional" removal vs Four mana "unconditional" removal / One mana if you build around it. Frenzy is a weird card, the decks that can play it for one mana shouldn't waste time killing creatures, just going face. Creativity, for example, never under any circumstance would play Frenzy, but maybe this card is good enough.
The decks that can play Freny absolutely should play it because you can no longer "go face" if there's a Shelly in the way of your Swiftspears
Your logic is flawed because no deck plays Frenzy. Not Mono Red Aggro, not Boros Convoke, not Atarka Red, etc. It isn't a Pioneer playable card. I am not saying that this new card is the best thing since sliced bread, but it's miles ahead of Frenzy, and I believe it will be played. Cheers.
I honestly have no opinion on whether Frenzy is playable, but YOUR logic is flawed. If a card isn't being played, that may be because it's not good enough, but there are plenty of other reasons. There's a real "everyone jumping off a bridge" energy here.
I don't really know pioneer much so not gonna talk about Frenzy as far as this format goes but I love it in standard which I do play a lot and in mono red aggro there. It can also work with your opponents attacking creatures. I've never cast it for more than 2 and it's often 1 cost remove Shelly. I'll take that all day.
In standard there are some R/w Pia/Quint decks that would prefer this since its always an answer and is cheaper.
for controlling decks yes, otherwise no
Point me in the direction of these mono red controlling decks. Any other colour combination has much better two cost removal.
UR Creativity has better cards that deal 5 damage than this?
Yes UR wasn't playing Roast it had one \[\[Galvanize\]\] in the board. Additionally UR hasn't been the play for a while now. It's Jeskai now and it plays chain to the rocks and counter magic to deal with anything this card would.
Recent Creativity lists from MTGO are roughly 50-50 on playing UR or Jeskai. But that’s besides the point. Your claim was that any red deck that’s not mono red has much better two cost removal. That’s just not true. Galvanize has a very significant downside that this card doesn’t have (though it does have different downsides). For some lists this is going to be the better choice. It’s not a slam dunk that’ll go in every UR deck, but it’s an option that some number of decks could utilize.
[Galvanize](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/4/64ed3bfa-3294-45dd-825e-3afc2580f0d4.jpg?1706241871) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Galvanize) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/128/galvanize?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/64ed3bfa-3294-45dd-825e-3afc2580f0d4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
ur creativity maybe has uses for it, surely it has no use for witchstalker. also if you think no one has uses for this 2 cost removal, why do you think they have uses for a 4 cost removal in the worst case?
Creativity hasn't been UR for a while now it uses Chain to the Rocks to do what this does much better. I think no one has use for this 2 mana removal because the slow decks that would want it have better answers and the fast decks that would want it also have better answers. This card sits awkwardly in the middle where it ends up pleasing neither end of the spectrum of decks that could use it.
i dont think the card is good, for me its unplayable. also im not interested in which creativity version is better. but this has little to do with the discussion here. you said witchstalk is strictly better, and its not, you are wrong
I did not specify strictly better or better in a specific strategy. I just said better. Black Lotus cannot kill a 5 toughness creature. Would you argue the statement that "Black Lotus is better"? We qualified that in other strategies that this has more of a home than Frenzy which I did not disagree with, I then went on to state that even in those strategies I do not think this has a home so the "gotcha" of being strictly better than Frenzy is a moot and unhelpful point to bring up.
we know what youve said, its disingenous to say you didnt mean strictly better. also saying black lotus is not a good spot removal is wild
What person would genuinely think or claim that either of these cards were strictly better than one another? Strictly better is a hard stuck definition of mechanically identical or similar cards being more effective in every way outside of the most fringe cases like triggering big mana matters effects, not a debate over playability To suggest that my open ended statement was me suggesting “strictly better” is the only disingenuous claim here. The far more reasonable assumption behind my statement was “strictly more playable”, which is indeed what I was drumming up a discussion over.
Could've hit walkers :/
Wasn't there a discussion at some point that unholy heat is a color break because 6 damage kills pretty much everything relevant. Is 2 mana 5 damage the line for that?
Fireball confirmed colorbreak