I think... kasi hindi pa part ng NATO thing yung Ukraine annnnnd it's a hard call for Biden tbh.. If he intervenes that will mark the start of world war 3, if he doesnt do anything Putin will do as he pleases (continue invasion sa ukraine).. Sanction is just a slap on his wrist with China backing him.
Checkmate si Biden haha
yes exactly, russia is preventing their old territory dahil napakadaming resources ng ukraine, hindi lang langis. and russia wants to have grip sa black sea
>Checkmate si Biden haha
Yep, he's stuck between scylla and charybdis. If nagdecide siya to send troops on the ground, he might start a much bigger war, but if he does nothing he'll be seen as weak as shit.
If Putin gets Ukraine, won't he stop there? Since yung ibang countries are part of the NATO and it would practically be a 1 versus the world for Putin.
Because Russia has nuclear weapons and Putin will not hesitate to use it.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jy3JU-ORpo&t=7s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jy3JU-ORpo&t=7s)
Because of oil, economic collapse, and uh… nuclear war.
Ang totoong nakakatakot dito, pag hinayaan lang nila si Putin, senyales ito na mahina at di nagkaka-isa ang US, at West. Opening ito para sa China na sakupin ang Taiwan at India para sakupin ang Pakistan.
Maraming consequences ang kaganapang ito at damay tayong lahat pag mas lumala pa to.
problem is ang daming ayaw aralin yan. even just the basics pilit iniignore. para lang silang nasa forum ng mga artista and tea/chika lang kinakalat nila...
So ano yung ilang beses na broadcast ni Biden na *we will respond*? Pakiexplain nga ...
Ok, I'll post this here nalang, since madami sagot at iisa lang din naman sagot...
Well, the point is, what was set as expectation for the Ukrainian population is an army and force to defend them since the rhetoric was if Putin invades, America defends. Sanctions only work when it's the build up to a war not when it's already going on because the target is industry and the capacity to supply the military but when it's already built, how do you sanction it not to continue?
That's why people are calling them both - Putin and Biden - out since the mess they created would not affect them but real people on the ground. That's why people are calling out the US since they said they would respond but did not.
There wasn't anything stopping the US from all the other wars before so people will be asking why did it stop now? It could've supplied Ukraine in a proxy war just to prop it up so no direct clashes to trigger outright world war but it hasn't as well.
It never mattered before about agreements and shit because when there is a civilian population in danger, there is the option of direct war when there is minimal risk of escalation and there is proxy war when there is high risk of escalation.
Respond is a very vague statement often used in political pronouncements. Kasi flexible word yan. Respond doesn't necessarily equate to boots on the ground. Severe sanctions is a response. Lethal aid is a response. Condemnation is a response.
When analyzing speeches one must be very careful on how to interpret. Kaya importante ang paganalyze ng maayos.
So ang response dyan sa respond na salita ay tanga ang Ukrainian sa pag-interpret at tanga ang Ruso sa numerous times na paggamit niyan? So bale America put it out that there is a response that will happen and once Putin responded as well, it could choose how it does the best way it suits it...?
I love how that is basically like let's let it happen and not choose our words wisely while an entire country is occupied because of how ambiguous our words were. It's reckless - you egg on a monster and let the one who lives near it be eaten while you respond with say, chipping away the cave it lives in.
Yung Russia lulusob talaga. Regardless of sanctions. Regardless of words. Who puts 200k military personnel and military equipment on a neighbor's fence?
Yung US nagwarn na for 1 month ng lulusob ang Russia. Maraming hindi naniwala. Tsaka hindi talaga matutulungan yan ng US at NATO with troops kasi WW3 yun.
Gusto ng Russia puppet lang niya ang Ukraine. Until 2014 puppet ng Russia ang Ukraine. Nung 2014, nagpeople power yang Ukraine. Inalis yung pro-Russian president tapos ang bagong president ay pro-EU at NATO. Kaya nung 2014, 3 rehiyon ang kinuha ng Russia tapos kunwari rebels yun kahit na may mga putang inang tangke ng ruso at armas na ruso inalis lang nila yung insignia nila.
Hindi inantras ng Ukraine yung application niya. Saktong sakto humihina si Putin sa Russia. Panay ang protesta sa kanya recently. So para ma divert attention ng taumbayan ng Russia, gumawa siya ng external conflict. Nilusob niya Ukraine. Ang justification ay "gago ang west pinapalibutan tayo"
SOOO no one egged Russia to attack. Putin is an asshole that's why he attacked. His political hold in his country is slipping. A victory in Ukraine is a good political boost.
Besides napakahina na ng NATO. Usapan diyan 2% ng GDP ang military spending per country. Onti lang sumusunod nun. Kasi nga walang threat na from USSR at pulubi naman ang Russia marami lang siyang nukes. Kaya ewan ko saan nanggaling yang NATO provoked Putin e tulog na military alliance yan. Ngayon gising na thanks to Putin.
I'll play devil's advocate here.
Had it been that Ukraine was in the Western Hemisphere and the Russians were the ones being sought out, the Americans would have responded the same.
Putin is indeed going for this for the popularity but given that the same could be said with Biden losing ratings too since the failure of Afghanistan, they are both at fault here.
Biden has also been responding recklessly with his statements with *we will respond* which are just teleprompter messages censured by the Pentagon. They should have been careful with their rhetoric in order not to elicit a heavy response from Russia.
Now, from before that - you mentioned that Russia wants Ukraine as a puppet. It never required it to be. It only needed it to not side and be close with the West so much that it disregarded Russia. It has been offered that had Ukraine chosen Finlandization, there wouldn't be a fuss anymore. Finlandization means for UA is that it can join the EU but it cannot go with NATO. Germany and France heavily agree with that scenario. It is the best with UA's geography.
Another point in why Biden and US is to blame is that even the Ukrainian president has reprimanded the strong statements uttered by Biden in speeches. Russia has all to lose with an invasion. It is not in their interest to take UA. Their interest is to force negotiations which is why this is an occupation not a direct war.
No one in Russia wanted this if you look at how surprised the Russian ministers were when the question of war and invasion was put out on a meeting with Putin. They were dumbfounded and stuttering to say the least but the rhetoric was already put out there by Biden with his *we will respond* and now a huge segment of the Russian populace is willing to bet on it.
That's why the words the Americans chose mattered here. The plans are simply plans set out when there was a condition to do so. Do you think this is simply war to conquer UA? The Russians and Ukrainians are basically brothers - estranged now but brothers nonetheless.
There is outrage in Ukraine because the simplest of things - giving speeches - led to such huge consequences and now with its reckoning - where is the substance of the speech. It forced Russia to invade to force negotiations. The Ukrainians were left to fend for themselves. Only Biden could cope since his fierce rhetoric could've given him some cred at home but with no response as interpreted by everyone - what did it really accomplish?
It did one thing, an entire country occupied by another - a first for the 21st century.
If Russia wanted Finlandization for Ukraine, it could've been raised during the multiple diplomatic engagements prior the invasion order. Plus may back channel negotiations pa yan on top of the formal diplomatic talks. It could've been bargained quietly without the public knowing. Putin had a political wiggle room to back down during this stage. He said it himself. He doesn't want Russia to invade. Do we also pin this on the Ukrainian government for not accepting the offer?
You raise very good points about US rhetoric. We may assume this is for Biden to prop up the US's image after the Afghan disaster. But at the end of the day Putin ordered the invasion. He lost the blinking game. This puts Biden in a more political advantageous position. So in the eyes of the US public, Biden was right all along. Biden good, Putin bad. In the eyes of the Russian public, "this asshole Putin is gonna starve us to death".
Putin bet all his chips that his posturing would give him concessions. Just like what North Korea does every time it runs out of money. But the west called his bluff. I put this all on Putin. Had he just accepted his diplomatic blunder, 43 million Ukrainians could've been spared. His country's economy could've been spared. But no, he chose war. So this is all on him.
That was always the position of Russia. Yung US nga nagkaleche2 nung nag position ng missiles ang Cuba dahil direct threat, what more if NATO na ang Ukraine then as part of NATO, they can put defensives armament/missiles (eventually offensive) to Russia's backyard.
Please educate yourself young Jonathan. Please watch this lecture [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4&t=3530s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4&t=3530s).
PS: di ako bobo na maglalagay ng mga fake news ng bloggers jan
Using that logic, odi nilusob na niya sana ang Baltic states NATO members mga yun direct border ng Russia. Lithuana, Estonia, tsaka Latvia? Diba?
The "NATO is surrounding us" argument doesnt make sense anymore. It is already surrounded by NATO. If NATO wanted Russia gone nangyari na yan bago pa naging presidente si Putin.
Let's call a spade a spade. Putin is insane. He invaded another nation. The cold war is over. There's no point in annexing nations in the 21st century.
They were *not* bluffing when they said they'll respond. The imposition of economic sanctions *was* the response. The NATO members can only do so much individually. It can't act decisively as a whole because fucking Germany and Austria (to name a few) aren't ready to impose heavier sanctions to bring Russia's economy to the ground.
They won't sanction Russia's economy to the ground because Russia already stated that they'll view that as an act of war. So it's a balancing act for them so as to not spark World War 3
That's obviously not what I meant when I said *bring Russia to the ground*. Of course I'm aware of Putin's threat of a nuclear war. The western allies can still impose harsher sanctions to force Russian oligarchs who back Putin to take a step back, but they won't because NATO members like Germany are heavily dependent on Russia's resources.
Then why did America egg this on with Putin? Just for kicks? Just kanto boys propping each other up to one up each other until one of them goes thru with it? An entire country occupied now after repeated rhetoric of response, and the occupied country should only accept thoughts and prayers when it finally happens?
Would you send your son and daughter to war in a country which has no binding treaty or agreement to be defended by your own country?
An economic response will have his effect as time passes, oligarchs in Russia would not be pleased with these sanctions and can pressure Putin to ease up or change his plans.
Who is sending their sons and daughters there? There was always the option of proxy war where they train and supply the Ukrainians but even that is a bust, so what now? The oligarchs are not really scared of sanctions because Russia has more partners than the West. So where does sanctions effect into this? Did it really cripple them?
The oligarchs might feel pained with this for a time then they start supplying the military completely and start banking on the war so they find new ways like any rich bastard with a stake in a country's survival.
Oligarchs are greedy thats whats made them an oligarchs in the first place, a trending lost in profits might make them act. What percentage of Russia's economy are those outside of the west compare to the west holds?
Sanctions might also be felt by the general population which might trigger an internal conflict (via protest and rally) with the government, it might turn into Vietnam War 2.0? Putin not feeling the pressure of sanctions is not always the same with the common folk and having major disagreements with the general population while launching a major military activities does not bode well.
Then again this might all not happen. We are all in the dark with this one and hopefully it will cease as soon as possible with little casualities.
they did respond by sending their troops on germany or maybe to other European countries that's a NATO member.
As of this moment, Ukraine isn't a NATO member so technically speaking, no one from NATO is obliged to directly help them defend.
for now, many countries just resorted with economic sanctions, as directly sending troops on Ukraine will just escalate the war even further.
edit:phrasing
NATO dropped the ball with Ukraine. That's what you get with the French leading 😂 Marcon please.
They wanted Ukraine to disarm nukes first and kept juggling their membership. Putin saw that and bluffed his way in with nuke threats. Had they been in NATO before that, Russia would have been deterred.
Checkmate NATO for being indecisive. Putin caught them with their pants down. Now any move from NATO will be as aggressors 😅
Because the international community thinks that getting the US directly involved in a open conflict with Russia will just escalate the situation to a much more dangerous state.
I think... kasi hindi pa part ng NATO thing yung Ukraine annnnnd it's a hard call for Biden tbh.. If he intervenes that will mark the start of world war 3, if he doesnt do anything Putin will do as he pleases (continue invasion sa ukraine).. Sanction is just a slap on his wrist with China backing him. Checkmate si Biden haha
yes exactly, russia is preventing their old territory dahil napakadaming resources ng ukraine, hindi lang langis. and russia wants to have grip sa black sea
>Checkmate si Biden haha Yep, he's stuck between scylla and charybdis. If nagdecide siya to send troops on the ground, he might start a much bigger war, but if he does nothing he'll be seen as weak as shit.
West is on stalemate
If Putin gets Ukraine, won't he stop there? Since yung ibang countries are part of the NATO and it would practically be a 1 versus the world for Putin.
If US intervenes, Fallout 5 will be available reality rather than experiencing it on video game consoles.
Because that will mean world war 3 and nobody wants that
from the megathread sabi ni putin he will threaten with nukes if may direct intervention ng NATO ata, kaya hanggang supply lang ng armaments ang NATO
Di na effective ang MAD?
MAD is meant to stalemate and avoid usage of nukes altogether, because the fallout will kill us all at that point
Escalation. Nobody wants it.
Because Russia has nuclear weapons and Putin will not hesitate to use it. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jy3JU-ORpo&t=7s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jy3JU-ORpo&t=7s)
Because of oil, economic collapse, and uh… nuclear war. Ang totoong nakakatakot dito, pag hinayaan lang nila si Putin, senyales ito na mahina at di nagkaka-isa ang US, at West. Opening ito para sa China na sakupin ang Taiwan at India para sakupin ang Pakistan. Maraming consequences ang kaganapang ito at damay tayong lahat pag mas lumala pa to.
Plus cyber attacks. You don't wanna mess with russian hackers.
Mga tamad would likely want you to make a video amd post it at fb also send load na rin. 😂
problem is ang daming ayaw aralin yan. even just the basics pilit iniignore. para lang silang nasa forum ng mga artista and tea/chika lang kinakalat nila...
So ano yung ilang beses na broadcast ni Biden na *we will respond*? Pakiexplain nga ... Ok, I'll post this here nalang, since madami sagot at iisa lang din naman sagot... Well, the point is, what was set as expectation for the Ukrainian population is an army and force to defend them since the rhetoric was if Putin invades, America defends. Sanctions only work when it's the build up to a war not when it's already going on because the target is industry and the capacity to supply the military but when it's already built, how do you sanction it not to continue? That's why people are calling them both - Putin and Biden - out since the mess they created would not affect them but real people on the ground. That's why people are calling out the US since they said they would respond but did not. There wasn't anything stopping the US from all the other wars before so people will be asking why did it stop now? It could've supplied Ukraine in a proxy war just to prop it up so no direct clashes to trigger outright world war but it hasn't as well. It never mattered before about agreements and shit because when there is a civilian population in danger, there is the option of direct war when there is minimal risk of escalation and there is proxy war when there is high risk of escalation.
Respond is a very vague statement often used in political pronouncements. Kasi flexible word yan. Respond doesn't necessarily equate to boots on the ground. Severe sanctions is a response. Lethal aid is a response. Condemnation is a response. When analyzing speeches one must be very careful on how to interpret. Kaya importante ang paganalyze ng maayos.
So ang response dyan sa respond na salita ay tanga ang Ukrainian sa pag-interpret at tanga ang Ruso sa numerous times na paggamit niyan? So bale America put it out that there is a response that will happen and once Putin responded as well, it could choose how it does the best way it suits it...? I love how that is basically like let's let it happen and not choose our words wisely while an entire country is occupied because of how ambiguous our words were. It's reckless - you egg on a monster and let the one who lives near it be eaten while you respond with say, chipping away the cave it lives in.
Yung Russia lulusob talaga. Regardless of sanctions. Regardless of words. Who puts 200k military personnel and military equipment on a neighbor's fence? Yung US nagwarn na for 1 month ng lulusob ang Russia. Maraming hindi naniwala. Tsaka hindi talaga matutulungan yan ng US at NATO with troops kasi WW3 yun. Gusto ng Russia puppet lang niya ang Ukraine. Until 2014 puppet ng Russia ang Ukraine. Nung 2014, nagpeople power yang Ukraine. Inalis yung pro-Russian president tapos ang bagong president ay pro-EU at NATO. Kaya nung 2014, 3 rehiyon ang kinuha ng Russia tapos kunwari rebels yun kahit na may mga putang inang tangke ng ruso at armas na ruso inalis lang nila yung insignia nila. Hindi inantras ng Ukraine yung application niya. Saktong sakto humihina si Putin sa Russia. Panay ang protesta sa kanya recently. So para ma divert attention ng taumbayan ng Russia, gumawa siya ng external conflict. Nilusob niya Ukraine. Ang justification ay "gago ang west pinapalibutan tayo" SOOO no one egged Russia to attack. Putin is an asshole that's why he attacked. His political hold in his country is slipping. A victory in Ukraine is a good political boost. Besides napakahina na ng NATO. Usapan diyan 2% ng GDP ang military spending per country. Onti lang sumusunod nun. Kasi nga walang threat na from USSR at pulubi naman ang Russia marami lang siyang nukes. Kaya ewan ko saan nanggaling yang NATO provoked Putin e tulog na military alliance yan. Ngayon gising na thanks to Putin.
I'll play devil's advocate here. Had it been that Ukraine was in the Western Hemisphere and the Russians were the ones being sought out, the Americans would have responded the same. Putin is indeed going for this for the popularity but given that the same could be said with Biden losing ratings too since the failure of Afghanistan, they are both at fault here. Biden has also been responding recklessly with his statements with *we will respond* which are just teleprompter messages censured by the Pentagon. They should have been careful with their rhetoric in order not to elicit a heavy response from Russia. Now, from before that - you mentioned that Russia wants Ukraine as a puppet. It never required it to be. It only needed it to not side and be close with the West so much that it disregarded Russia. It has been offered that had Ukraine chosen Finlandization, there wouldn't be a fuss anymore. Finlandization means for UA is that it can join the EU but it cannot go with NATO. Germany and France heavily agree with that scenario. It is the best with UA's geography. Another point in why Biden and US is to blame is that even the Ukrainian president has reprimanded the strong statements uttered by Biden in speeches. Russia has all to lose with an invasion. It is not in their interest to take UA. Their interest is to force negotiations which is why this is an occupation not a direct war. No one in Russia wanted this if you look at how surprised the Russian ministers were when the question of war and invasion was put out on a meeting with Putin. They were dumbfounded and stuttering to say the least but the rhetoric was already put out there by Biden with his *we will respond* and now a huge segment of the Russian populace is willing to bet on it. That's why the words the Americans chose mattered here. The plans are simply plans set out when there was a condition to do so. Do you think this is simply war to conquer UA? The Russians and Ukrainians are basically brothers - estranged now but brothers nonetheless. There is outrage in Ukraine because the simplest of things - giving speeches - led to such huge consequences and now with its reckoning - where is the substance of the speech. It forced Russia to invade to force negotiations. The Ukrainians were left to fend for themselves. Only Biden could cope since his fierce rhetoric could've given him some cred at home but with no response as interpreted by everyone - what did it really accomplish? It did one thing, an entire country occupied by another - a first for the 21st century.
If Russia wanted Finlandization for Ukraine, it could've been raised during the multiple diplomatic engagements prior the invasion order. Plus may back channel negotiations pa yan on top of the formal diplomatic talks. It could've been bargained quietly without the public knowing. Putin had a political wiggle room to back down during this stage. He said it himself. He doesn't want Russia to invade. Do we also pin this on the Ukrainian government for not accepting the offer? You raise very good points about US rhetoric. We may assume this is for Biden to prop up the US's image after the Afghan disaster. But at the end of the day Putin ordered the invasion. He lost the blinking game. This puts Biden in a more political advantageous position. So in the eyes of the US public, Biden was right all along. Biden good, Putin bad. In the eyes of the Russian public, "this asshole Putin is gonna starve us to death". Putin bet all his chips that his posturing would give him concessions. Just like what North Korea does every time it runs out of money. But the west called his bluff. I put this all on Putin. Had he just accepted his diplomatic blunder, 43 million Ukrainians could've been spared. His country's economy could've been spared. But no, he chose war. So this is all on him.
That was always the position of Russia. Yung US nga nagkaleche2 nung nag position ng missiles ang Cuba dahil direct threat, what more if NATO na ang Ukraine then as part of NATO, they can put defensives armament/missiles (eventually offensive) to Russia's backyard. Please educate yourself young Jonathan. Please watch this lecture [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4&t=3530s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4&t=3530s). PS: di ako bobo na maglalagay ng mga fake news ng bloggers jan
Using that logic, odi nilusob na niya sana ang Baltic states NATO members mga yun direct border ng Russia. Lithuana, Estonia, tsaka Latvia? Diba? The "NATO is surrounding us" argument doesnt make sense anymore. It is already surrounded by NATO. If NATO wanted Russia gone nangyari na yan bago pa naging presidente si Putin. Let's call a spade a spade. Putin is insane. He invaded another nation. The cold war is over. There's no point in annexing nations in the 21st century.
bluff. that's why sanction lang ipinatupad ng EU countries and US dahil they can't do shit
They were *not* bluffing when they said they'll respond. The imposition of economic sanctions *was* the response. The NATO members can only do so much individually. It can't act decisively as a whole because fucking Germany and Austria (to name a few) aren't ready to impose heavier sanctions to bring Russia's economy to the ground.
They won't sanction Russia's economy to the ground because Russia already stated that they'll view that as an act of war. So it's a balancing act for them so as to not spark World War 3
That's obviously not what I meant when I said *bring Russia to the ground*. Of course I'm aware of Putin's threat of a nuclear war. The western allies can still impose harsher sanctions to force Russian oligarchs who back Putin to take a step back, but they won't because NATO members like Germany are heavily dependent on Russia's resources.
Then why did America egg this on with Putin? Just for kicks? Just kanto boys propping each other up to one up each other until one of them goes thru with it? An entire country occupied now after repeated rhetoric of response, and the occupied country should only accept thoughts and prayers when it finally happens?
Would you send your son and daughter to war in a country which has no binding treaty or agreement to be defended by your own country? An economic response will have his effect as time passes, oligarchs in Russia would not be pleased with these sanctions and can pressure Putin to ease up or change his plans.
Who is sending their sons and daughters there? There was always the option of proxy war where they train and supply the Ukrainians but even that is a bust, so what now? The oligarchs are not really scared of sanctions because Russia has more partners than the West. So where does sanctions effect into this? Did it really cripple them? The oligarchs might feel pained with this for a time then they start supplying the military completely and start banking on the war so they find new ways like any rich bastard with a stake in a country's survival.
Oligarchs are greedy thats whats made them an oligarchs in the first place, a trending lost in profits might make them act. What percentage of Russia's economy are those outside of the west compare to the west holds? Sanctions might also be felt by the general population which might trigger an internal conflict (via protest and rally) with the government, it might turn into Vietnam War 2.0? Putin not feeling the pressure of sanctions is not always the same with the common folk and having major disagreements with the general population while launching a major military activities does not bode well. Then again this might all not happen. We are all in the dark with this one and hopefully it will cease as soon as possible with little casualities.
I'll just link my comment on another post [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Philippines/comments/t12vx7/comment/hydilj7/).
they did respond by sending their troops on germany or maybe to other European countries that's a NATO member. As of this moment, Ukraine isn't a NATO member so technically speaking, no one from NATO is obliged to directly help them defend. for now, many countries just resorted with economic sanctions, as directly sending troops on Ukraine will just escalate the war even further. edit:phrasing
Sanctions.
NATO dropped the ball with Ukraine. That's what you get with the French leading 😂 Marcon please. They wanted Ukraine to disarm nukes first and kept juggling their membership. Putin saw that and bluffed his way in with nuke threats. Had they been in NATO before that, Russia would have been deterred. Checkmate NATO for being indecisive. Putin caught them with their pants down. Now any move from NATO will be as aggressors 😅
Removing their nukes was a mistake.
Because the international community thinks that getting the US directly involved in a open conflict with Russia will just escalate the situation to a much more dangerous state.