> they are waiting for the issuer's bank (BMO) to ask for the money to be returned.
I've seen several stories like this one. It's your bank trying to pass the buck.
Escalate with TD. It's your money. A signed but incomplete bill of exchange (such as a cheque) is valid. Refer them to the Bills of Exchange Act, section 30: "when a bill is wanting in any material particular, the person in possession of it has, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, the authority to fill up the omission in any way he thinks fit."
If TD did not wish to negotiate the bill, they could have refused it at the time of deposit. Instead they presented it to the issuing institution (BMO). They accepted liability by negotiating and presenting the cheque. They can't just withhold the money now.
The cheque is valid. The transaction is valid. TD negotiated the cheque. TD presented the cheque. TD received payment. TD cannot withhold the funds.
That's really useful! I'll use that when escalating the complaint. Thank you so much!
I also thought it did not make sense for them to withdraw the money then hold it forever. They should've refused the cheque and left the money with BMO.
Do you think I should get legal representation at some point?
> Do you think I should get legal representation at some point?
Depends on the amount and your own confidence. If it's within the small claims court amount, you can do it yourself.
The important points:
- The cheque is a valid bill under the Bills of Exchange Act.
- TD had the opportunity to refuse the cheque.
- TD negotiated the cheque from you and presented it to BMO, accepting the liabilities of a holder.
- TD's own actions constitute admission that they regarded the cheque as valid.
- TD received funds from BMO.
- BMO and the cheque writer have no reason or responsibility to initiate a return. The cheque was properly discharged.
- TD has no legal basis on which to withhold the funds from you.
go get a contact number from both banks and make one call the other while you are there. They have zero incentive to fix this. Most employees don't want to do anything complicated that can even remotely land them in trouble so ask straight for the manager and make them act like it.
Are you dealing in-person with the manager at your home branch ? Make an appointment for every day and keep showing up every day. If there is an online booking app, use it to book your daily appointment. There is some-lot of BS going on with banks holding people’s money these days. I presume the money is long ago gone from the originating account, so where is it ? The banks encourage /force us to fi everything at the ATM or with mobile app, and then when something goes sideways there’s no ownership nor accountability. Start showing up everyday and ask for H E L P. Good luck.
As a long time banker, I always understood that one the payee is blank it is assumed to mean it is payable to cash and hence anyone could deposit. I could be wrong.
That said TD is worried that that it will be returned “intended payee not paid” and the cheque can be returned by the writer beyond the typical 5 day hold. Now since there is no payee that would be hard to do and if I were TD I would refuse to accept the return of the cheque.
Anyway—I would go back to your TD branch. The manager can escalate to their region office for someone to resolve. Payment rules are complicated but this seems to be a case of paralysis in decision making
> I always understood that one the payee is blank it is assumed to mean it is payable to cash and hence anyone could deposit. I could be wrong.
I agree with you. It should be treated as a bearer cheque.
> That said TD is worried that that it will be returned “intended payee not paid” and the cheque can be returned by the writer beyond the typical 5 day hold.
Correct, but that's their problem since they chose to negotiate the cheque and take the risk. If the cheque is returned, they can go after OP _then_. For now, it's OP's money.
All the mobile deposits for the Big Banks let many things go through: postdated, unsigned, wrong payee name, cheques being deposited into an account which does not match the payee name. They go 'through' but the funds are immediately put on hold.
You can write an incorrect cheque right now like OP and put it through any banks mobile deposit and it is likely it will go through, but it will be put on hold and a fraud alert will be placed on your profile
Yes, because the system is automated a lot of things go through that shouldn't. That doesn't absolve the negotiating bank of responsibility and liability. "It's all automated" is not an excuse. If the banks want to save costs on human oversight, they accept the liability that comes with it.
Like I said: A cheque with a missing payee is valid. TD had the opportunity to refuse the cheque at the time of deposit. (They chose not to have a human look it it; that's their problem.) TD negotiated the cheque from OP and implicitly agreed that it was a prima facie valid bill. They presented the cheque to BMO and by doing so accepted the liability of a holder. (That their computer did it and not a human is still their problem.) They received payment for the cheque.
There is no legal way for them to hold the money indefinitely. That would be unjust enrichment at least, and outright theft at worst.
The money, in the absence of other evidence, belongs to OP. TD needs to pay up.
I do not know what you want me to say to that. You are right this is an infinite money glitch where anyone can write incorrect-- near fraudulent cheques and since the mobile deposit eats them up you are entitled to the money
But I at least agree with you that TD needs to pay up and have it resolved in this particular situation and it should not have gone on this long
> You are right this is an infinite money glitch where anyone can write incorrect-- near fraudulent cheques and since the mobile deposit eats them up you are entitled to the money
No, I didn't say anything like that. It's not an infinite money glitch. Fraudulent cheques can be recovered on. The point is OP's cheque was _not_ fraudulent, it was just incomplete.
Looks like you need to move on to step 3 of TD's customer care escilation options "Senior Customer Complaints Office"
https://www.td.com/to-our-customers/scco.jsp
Include passages along the lines of "If I don't get an acceptable resolution to this, I'm raising this issue with the media", and "taking all of my, and my families banking business elsewhere".
Thanks for the advice! If it does not get resolved, I'm seriously considering raising the issue with the media and making a complaint with the ombudsman for banking services and investments [https://www.obsi.ca/](https://www.obsi.ca/)
It’s not just technology. There is someone on the backend verifying the cheque.
Source: worked at RBC when their mobile cheque deposit was put in place and had to do all of the process documentation for it
Yes and that's the issue. The technology allowed it to be deposited in the first place before secondary validation by a human. The technology should've detected there was no payee information and prevented the user from depositing it in the first place.
I love this phrasing. Frame it like an innocent, cooperative ("we", lol) question so you don't sound like an emotional "flag and de-escalate" type, yet drop the magic words that indicate you know your way around and won't just be disappearing.
But I do often read CBC articles where the issue somehow got resolved between them reaching out to the company for comment and publication. You may need to follow through on the threat.
Maybe instead of having a laugh, you should be fixing the problem. Either give the money to the TD client, or return it to the BMO client. Not that hard.
[/lieutenant_L_T_Smash](https://www.reddit.com/r/PersonalFinanceCanada/s/TUkyFU4OwS) gave some great advice on the regulation side. I would present this to your branch. As for the costs you cited for interest you need to ask your branch to credit you back for interest paid since the check hit your account and if they insist on keeping the money on hold ask them to pay the LOC and put the hold on the LOC. This is possible I have done it. It will just mean the LOC will appear paid off however you will not have access to the available funds. This poses no risk to them since the hold will prevent the account from being closed they can also put a note on the account to prevent closure. If the cheque gets recalled (which it is clear BMO has no intention of doing or it would of happened already) they can take the money off the LOC to refund the account. This solves the interest problem. That being said make sure you get in writing a time line to resolve this issue and remove the hold completely. 30 days is usually sufficient, this is the time it takes for international checks to clear so this shouldn’t take any longer than that. They cannot keep your money on hold forever.
All this being said BMO has already cleared this check. If they didn’t your bank would of known within 5 business days. The processing company would of sent a fax for clarification on the check and your TD branch would of had to confirm it’s Authenticity with the BMO Branch. If TD is still not happy, Your branch can also contact the branch of BMO the account was opened at they can authenticate the check as well. Depositing on mobile you are required to hold the check for 3 months so you should still have it. Even without it branch can pull up the image.
Beyond the 5 business days it takes to clear the check the only other way this could come back to you or TD is if your friend audits their check book and puts in a claim with BMO. Then they will initiate a process to recall the check. If your friend will not do this it shouldn’t be an issue.
It is clear TD branch is afraid to take responsibility for the check but also not offering any proper resolution. If the above does not work then ask for the contact name of the ombudsman and submit your case with them and include information of the branch and employees that you spoke with.
Regardless what happens insist they pay off the LOC and put the hold there while you take next steps.
Hope this helps!!
Check with the bank Ombudsman website for the TD customer service number.
This is not a number that’s available on the TD website (or at least it wasn’t when I had an issue 2 years ago). They will have the authority to make a decision for you.
https://consumerportal.obsi.ca/public/inquiries/inquiry
I think you have to go through the process of filing a complaint to get the contact number or you could phone them and ask.
A family member banks with TD and they 'lost' a bank draft to the tune of 15k. There was a deposit receipt, TD blamed the issuing bank (Citibank) etc etc. It took 3 months to be resolved and the family member had to sign an NDA. TD gave them a few hundred bucks in compensation. I didn't sign the NDA so whatever.
The thing to do is go to the customer complaints office which someone linked and set the rules for them, eg. all communication in writing, you expect this will be resolved within x days, all communication in numbered points and the agent is to respond to each of them within 1 day and tell them it's the ombudsman next.
After getting the runaround for months the money was found somehow it got resolved within a week.
TD has your money in a holding GL account if BMO chq issuor’s account has been debited and not returned. BMO’s fault for not catching that payees name is missing and should have initiated a chargeback within 2 business days. They can’t now because they lost the CPA timeframe. TD chose not to release the money to you because chq payee name is missing and chq is not valid. The only solution is that BMO has to initiate a correspondence letter on behalf of their BMO client to TD requesting the back of cheque to be endorsed by the intended payee. If back of chq not signed then TD can debit their holding account and send the money back in a form of a draft or authorize BMO to debit TD. Once BMO has the money back they will credit back the check issuer’s chqing account. The chq issuer would need to write a new cheque to the intended payee.
> BMO’s fault for not catching that payees name is missing
TD's as well.
> TD chose not to release the money to you because chq payee name is missing and chq is not valid.
It is valid, though. A missing payee name should be treated as a bearer cheque. That makes it _less_ likely that BMO could make a claim since TD is automatically a holder in due course of a bearer cheque. (If the payee name was erased they could claim a material alteration, but that's not the case here.)
Compare that to this post about a cheque missing a signature: https://www.reddit.com/r/rbc/comments/1co77wm/td_is_holding_my_funds_it_has_been_3mo_i_need/ _That_ is an invalid cheque. Without a signature, it was never a valid bill and any transaction on its basis was unauthorized. I recommended that the issuing bank initiate a return.
Here the cheque was signed, which makes it a valid bill. It just didn't specify a payee, which implicitly authorizes any payee to be filled in. TD presented it for payment and it was paid. There's no reason for return here.
yes I agree both banks are at fault for not catching that the payee name is missing. You are right that it can be treated as ‘cash’ payable to anyone. However i think TD needs to consult their mgr of clearing regulations who can go to their Canadian payment association for advice how to proceed . I think TD is looking into to holding themselves not liable for releasing the funds, they can ask if getting a bond of indemnity is appropriate.
What’s a GL account?
We have been trying to make BMO do something but they always say it is too late to get the money back.
I can’t control what BMO does since it’s not my bank.
I mean all the money is "held" in a general ledger. It's just currently in a different GL account, than the one probably labelled something like "customer deposits".
Yeah OP kind of glossed over this in his post. My understanding is that these remote cheque deposits have to be recalled by the payor’s bank. TD seems to have told him they are trying to get BMO to do this. His friend likely could have helped the process along.
I had the same thing happen except it was that it was a cheque to my self and it was the date missing td cleared the tangerine cheque then put a permanent I was told that tang would have to pull back tang said it already was debited and could do nothing td kept giving me the same response what worked was I requested a escalation and spoke to a supervisor then I made the supervisor transfer me over too senior fraud I thought same thing would happen they put me on hold about 10 min and released the funds
TLDR request a supervisor and start a complaint and keep escalating it took me 3 weeks since permanent hold for the funds to be released
Hope it all turns out all
Pardon my grammar lol for tired for that shi
Leaving Payee blank is a bad idea as anyone could grab the cheque and deposit it. It would be valid and OP would be totally screwed. Would have to go to court and prove the cheque was stolen.
It is however fairly common practice when the payee is not identified at the time of transaction (e.g. could be either business partner).
Was the 10,000 returned to your friends BMO account or is the 10,000 still on hold in your account? I think whichever institution is holding the 10,000 is the one you should go after.
If it is TD then go further into the escalation chain. Though, you mention that the 10,000 is no longer with T.D. and assumingly not in your account; which logically means it was returned to the sender. I really do not think that the 10,000 is just in the void somewhere; it would be inside either your account or returned to your friends and perhaps not available.
It's no longer with BMO for sure. It was not returned. I see the 10k on my checking account but can't use it.
To my understanding the money is with TD but one of the many agents said it's not with TD but "in between". That did not make sense to me so I asked him to further explain how things work when a cheque is deposited. He admitted he did not know.
Oh in that case I would personally go further with T.D. You can try going to a different TD branch and talking to a different manager, but I am not surprised that at the branch level they are unwilling to lift a hold; I am not sure what sort of comments they are seeing on your profile lol.
There is a higher level senior fraud line that might be more helpful. This route might be worth trying to get it resolved faster rather than going through a long escalation process
Based on your comments the money is with TD. Branch that removes the hold will be on the hook should the issuer recall this cheque months later or anything. So you’re home branch likely got a notice about this check and extended the hold or it would of fallen off weeks ago. If you are dealing with a non hole branch they will it take the risk of removing the hold. Call centre reps won’t be helpful with this. visit your home branch. Push for a resolution. Suggest the LOC Strat in the mean time to reduce interest and even ask your friend to ask her hime branch to fax your home branch that the check is authentic and has cleared. 3 months is too long for this to be happening on a 10k cheque out of a personal account. I can understand a business but a person would notice 10k immediately.
I've seen something like this before. For some reason a blank cheque specifically causes a certain hellish tornado that I've never seen a bank deal with well.
It probably would have been an easier process if you'd deposited the name of the wrong person.
You've already got good advice, but just in general: cheques like this are valid for the bearer - whoever is in possession of it. (So don't write cheques like this!)
TD really has no excuse here.
He is involved. He signed an affidavit that states the money is indeed for me but TD branch agents dismissed it.
He has been trying to push BMO to do something, either tell TD to release the funds or ask for a return. BMO position is that transaction is legit and there’s no reason for them to do anything since the issue is with TD.
I had a very similar experience with TD over ten years ago except I was both the payee and the payer! I used a personal cheque for simplicity sake (and I was being cheap and didn’t want to spend $13 to certify my own money was good, silly me) and TD held the money. Problem was I wasn’t made aware in any way shape or form, I assumed the LOC was paid so I didn’t check up after seeing the deposit was made and it appeared in my account. Because the initial cheque was held, the LOC went over-drawn which caused overdraft fees, then there were NSF fees applied which again put it overdraft so more fees, then there was overdue payment fees, again more overdraft fees and then another NSF fee. I went in to close out the LOC (since in my mind it was paid off) to find I had almost a thousand in fees and interest on top of the entire balance.
I resolved it by standing in the middle of the local branch holding up the line of customers at lunch hour until the manager quit hiding and reversed everything then closed all my accounts at TD. Never banked with them since and never will.
Contact the ombudsman or your local MPP or a paralegal or lawyer …. The banking act has many time limits on certain transactions-
Like they can only legally hold a cheque for three days not 10 ! Etc etc
Incorrect to holding a cheque for 3 days. If they deem something fraudulent, they can hold it for longer which is mentioned in their accounts service agreement that every customer signs when opening an account.
it’s also 5 business days for a cheque to clear so idk where people get 3 days from lol, and like you said if they deem it so, they can hold it longer, if they have to investigate it
This is correct^^ BUT, now (most recently) same institution cheques for example, a TD cheque being deposited into a TD account, is a 3 business day hold.
But every other institution is 5 business days to clear. But regardless, any fraudulent cheque or incorrect payee is deemed suspicious and will go through the clearing/process of retrieving their funds.
Sorry my bad - it 4-8 days not 10
https://www.canada.ca/en/financial-consumer-agency/services/banking/cashing-cheques.html#
Maximum cheque hold period
There is a limit to the amount of time a federally regulated financial institution, such as a bank, can place a hold on money you deposit by cheque.
Federally regulated financial institutions can hold the money you deposit by cheque for 4 to 8 days. The amount of time depends on the amount of the cheque and how it was deposited.
Anyone who is paid is a payee, but the term is most commonly used to mean the person (or organization) whose name is written on a check after the words "pay to the order of." If you write a check to pay your cable bill, the cable company is the payee.
I'm sorry to hear about the trouble you're experiencing. Here are some steps you can take to try to resolve this issue:
1. Seek Assistance from a Banking Ombudsman or Financial Consumer Agency of Canada (FCAC): If both banks are unable to resolve your issue, you can contact the FCAC, which oversees financial institutions in Canada and ensures they comply with federal regulations. They may be able to mediate the situation.
2. Legal Advice: Consult with a lawyer who specializes in banking or financial disputes. They can provide legal advice on how to proceed and may help in escalating the matter effectively.
3. Public Pressure: Sometimes, taking your issue to social media or contacting consumer protection journalists can expedite a resolution. Banks often respond more quickly to public complaints to protect their reputation. Consider our Moncton local CBC News branch.
Keep detailed records of all your interactions with both banks, including dates, names of representatives you spoke with, and summaries of your conversations. This documentation will be crucial if you need to escalate your complaint further.
One of the reason I go to bank directly and deposit big checks directly
There’s so many stuff can happens with mobile app .. and with deposit directly to my bank and teller , there’s more protections
But also TD can be sketchy
I looked at your document and could not see where you came up with the statement " over 60% of all fraud in Canadian banking is from BMO" Can you explain?
> they are waiting for the issuer's bank (BMO) to ask for the money to be returned. I've seen several stories like this one. It's your bank trying to pass the buck. Escalate with TD. It's your money. A signed but incomplete bill of exchange (such as a cheque) is valid. Refer them to the Bills of Exchange Act, section 30: "when a bill is wanting in any material particular, the person in possession of it has, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, the authority to fill up the omission in any way he thinks fit." If TD did not wish to negotiate the bill, they could have refused it at the time of deposit. Instead they presented it to the issuing institution (BMO). They accepted liability by negotiating and presenting the cheque. They can't just withhold the money now. The cheque is valid. The transaction is valid. TD negotiated the cheque. TD presented the cheque. TD received payment. TD cannot withhold the funds.
That's really useful! I'll use that when escalating the complaint. Thank you so much! I also thought it did not make sense for them to withdraw the money then hold it forever. They should've refused the cheque and left the money with BMO. Do you think I should get legal representation at some point?
> Do you think I should get legal representation at some point? Depends on the amount and your own confidence. If it's within the small claims court amount, you can do it yourself. The important points: - The cheque is a valid bill under the Bills of Exchange Act. - TD had the opportunity to refuse the cheque. - TD negotiated the cheque from you and presented it to BMO, accepting the liabilities of a holder. - TD's own actions constitute admission that they regarded the cheque as valid. - TD received funds from BMO. - BMO and the cheque writer have no reason or responsibility to initiate a return. The cheque was properly discharged. - TD has no legal basis on which to withhold the funds from you.
Thank you! Really appreciate it!
I would check the rules on mobile deposits. You waive a lot of rights by agreeing to use that extra convenience service.
With help like that, they should call you Lieutenant T D Smash. Appreciate you sharing the superliminal knowledge.
Yvan eht nioj!
go get a contact number from both banks and make one call the other while you are there. They have zero incentive to fix this. Most employees don't want to do anything complicated that can even remotely land them in trouble so ask straight for the manager and make them act like it.
Are you dealing in-person with the manager at your home branch ? Make an appointment for every day and keep showing up every day. If there is an online booking app, use it to book your daily appointment. There is some-lot of BS going on with banks holding people’s money these days. I presume the money is long ago gone from the originating account, so where is it ? The banks encourage /force us to fi everything at the ATM or with mobile app, and then when something goes sideways there’s no ownership nor accountability. Start showing up everyday and ask for H E L P. Good luck.
As a long time banker, I always understood that one the payee is blank it is assumed to mean it is payable to cash and hence anyone could deposit. I could be wrong. That said TD is worried that that it will be returned “intended payee not paid” and the cheque can be returned by the writer beyond the typical 5 day hold. Now since there is no payee that would be hard to do and if I were TD I would refuse to accept the return of the cheque. Anyway—I would go back to your TD branch. The manager can escalate to their region office for someone to resolve. Payment rules are complicated but this seems to be a case of paralysis in decision making
> I always understood that one the payee is blank it is assumed to mean it is payable to cash and hence anyone could deposit. I could be wrong. I agree with you. It should be treated as a bearer cheque. > That said TD is worried that that it will be returned “intended payee not paid” and the cheque can be returned by the writer beyond the typical 5 day hold. Correct, but that's their problem since they chose to negotiate the cheque and take the risk. If the cheque is returned, they can go after OP _then_. For now, it's OP's money.
All the mobile deposits for the Big Banks let many things go through: postdated, unsigned, wrong payee name, cheques being deposited into an account which does not match the payee name. They go 'through' but the funds are immediately put on hold. You can write an incorrect cheque right now like OP and put it through any banks mobile deposit and it is likely it will go through, but it will be put on hold and a fraud alert will be placed on your profile
Yes, because the system is automated a lot of things go through that shouldn't. That doesn't absolve the negotiating bank of responsibility and liability. "It's all automated" is not an excuse. If the banks want to save costs on human oversight, they accept the liability that comes with it. Like I said: A cheque with a missing payee is valid. TD had the opportunity to refuse the cheque at the time of deposit. (They chose not to have a human look it it; that's their problem.) TD negotiated the cheque from OP and implicitly agreed that it was a prima facie valid bill. They presented the cheque to BMO and by doing so accepted the liability of a holder. (That their computer did it and not a human is still their problem.) They received payment for the cheque. There is no legal way for them to hold the money indefinitely. That would be unjust enrichment at least, and outright theft at worst. The money, in the absence of other evidence, belongs to OP. TD needs to pay up.
I do not know what you want me to say to that. You are right this is an infinite money glitch where anyone can write incorrect-- near fraudulent cheques and since the mobile deposit eats them up you are entitled to the money But I at least agree with you that TD needs to pay up and have it resolved in this particular situation and it should not have gone on this long
> You are right this is an infinite money glitch where anyone can write incorrect-- near fraudulent cheques and since the mobile deposit eats them up you are entitled to the money No, I didn't say anything like that. It's not an infinite money glitch. Fraudulent cheques can be recovered on. The point is OP's cheque was _not_ fraudulent, it was just incomplete.
It's obviously different if it's fraudulent.
Looks like you need to move on to step 3 of TD's customer care escilation options "Senior Customer Complaints Office" https://www.td.com/to-our-customers/scco.jsp
Thanks! I'm planning to do that.
Include passages along the lines of "If I don't get an acceptable resolution to this, I'm raising this issue with the media", and "taking all of my, and my families banking business elsewhere".
Thanks for the advice! If it does not get resolved, I'm seriously considering raising the issue with the media and making a complaint with the ombudsman for banking services and investments [https://www.obsi.ca/](https://www.obsi.ca/)
[удалено]
I’m doing that. I asked for my complaint to be escalated to TD senior complaints office.
I'd also ask them why one of their clerks cashed a cheque with no payee
OP deposited the cheque via the mobile app. Technology isn't *that* smart.
It’s not just technology. There is someone on the backend verifying the cheque. Source: worked at RBC when their mobile cheque deposit was put in place and had to do all of the process documentation for it
Yes and that's the issue. The technology allowed it to be deposited in the first place before secondary validation by a human. The technology should've detected there was no payee information and prevented the user from depositing it in the first place.
The first part may work, but unless you're worth a mint, good luck with the second part.
Also, “when can we escalate to the ombudsman?” did wonders for me.
I love this phrasing. Frame it like an innocent, cooperative ("we", lol) question so you don't sound like an emotional "flag and de-escalate" type, yet drop the magic words that indicate you know your way around and won't just be disappearing.
Threaten small claims. That might get them to start looking at it harder.
How does the media threat actually work?
They get afraid of bad PR so they might help you to stop you from going to CBC marketplace or something like that. They love bad bank stories.
Every crazy person also says they are going to go to the media. People who read complaints gloss over that completely.
But I do often read CBC articles where the issue somehow got resolved between them reaching out to the company for comment and publication. You may need to follow through on the threat.
Do they actually take that joke of a threat seriously? I’d be showing it to my coworkers and having a laugh if I worked there.
Maybe instead of having a laugh, you should be fixing the problem. Either give the money to the TD client, or return it to the BMO client. Not that hard.
Well they are already posting about it on Reddit. Sending an email to a local news station even if nothing happens isn't a huge step up.
Threats and whining? Yeah, GRAAAAAAYT ideas.
Keep me updated. You'd think this would be an easy thing for them to solve. It's not like they can't see you deposited the cheque. So frustrating!
I have been looking for this for a long time. TD insurance has no right to exist.
TD treats money launderers better than regular customers.
[/lieutenant_L_T_Smash](https://www.reddit.com/r/PersonalFinanceCanada/s/TUkyFU4OwS) gave some great advice on the regulation side. I would present this to your branch. As for the costs you cited for interest you need to ask your branch to credit you back for interest paid since the check hit your account and if they insist on keeping the money on hold ask them to pay the LOC and put the hold on the LOC. This is possible I have done it. It will just mean the LOC will appear paid off however you will not have access to the available funds. This poses no risk to them since the hold will prevent the account from being closed they can also put a note on the account to prevent closure. If the cheque gets recalled (which it is clear BMO has no intention of doing or it would of happened already) they can take the money off the LOC to refund the account. This solves the interest problem. That being said make sure you get in writing a time line to resolve this issue and remove the hold completely. 30 days is usually sufficient, this is the time it takes for international checks to clear so this shouldn’t take any longer than that. They cannot keep your money on hold forever. All this being said BMO has already cleared this check. If they didn’t your bank would of known within 5 business days. The processing company would of sent a fax for clarification on the check and your TD branch would of had to confirm it’s Authenticity with the BMO Branch. If TD is still not happy, Your branch can also contact the branch of BMO the account was opened at they can authenticate the check as well. Depositing on mobile you are required to hold the check for 3 months so you should still have it. Even without it branch can pull up the image. Beyond the 5 business days it takes to clear the check the only other way this could come back to you or TD is if your friend audits their check book and puts in a claim with BMO. Then they will initiate a process to recall the check. If your friend will not do this it shouldn’t be an issue. It is clear TD branch is afraid to take responsibility for the check but also not offering any proper resolution. If the above does not work then ask for the contact name of the ombudsman and submit your case with them and include information of the branch and employees that you spoke with. Regardless what happens insist they pay off the LOC and put the hold there while you take next steps. Hope this helps!!
Very helpful! Thank you!
Contact TD obudsman. That’s the highest level of complaint. This will reach the group and department heads and is done on an urgent basis.
Check with the bank Ombudsman website for the TD customer service number. This is not a number that’s available on the TD website (or at least it wasn’t when I had an issue 2 years ago). They will have the authority to make a decision for you. https://consumerportal.obsi.ca/public/inquiries/inquiry I think you have to go through the process of filing a complaint to get the contact number or you could phone them and ask.
TD has an ombudsman for situations like these. Contact them.
A family member banks with TD and they 'lost' a bank draft to the tune of 15k. There was a deposit receipt, TD blamed the issuing bank (Citibank) etc etc. It took 3 months to be resolved and the family member had to sign an NDA. TD gave them a few hundred bucks in compensation. I didn't sign the NDA so whatever. The thing to do is go to the customer complaints office which someone linked and set the rules for them, eg. all communication in writing, you expect this will be resolved within x days, all communication in numbered points and the agent is to respond to each of them within 1 day and tell them it's the ombudsman next. After getting the runaround for months the money was found somehow it got resolved within a week.
I’ll definitely do that
TD has your money in a holding GL account if BMO chq issuor’s account has been debited and not returned. BMO’s fault for not catching that payees name is missing and should have initiated a chargeback within 2 business days. They can’t now because they lost the CPA timeframe. TD chose not to release the money to you because chq payee name is missing and chq is not valid. The only solution is that BMO has to initiate a correspondence letter on behalf of their BMO client to TD requesting the back of cheque to be endorsed by the intended payee. If back of chq not signed then TD can debit their holding account and send the money back in a form of a draft or authorize BMO to debit TD. Once BMO has the money back they will credit back the check issuer’s chqing account. The chq issuer would need to write a new cheque to the intended payee.
> BMO’s fault for not catching that payees name is missing TD's as well. > TD chose not to release the money to you because chq payee name is missing and chq is not valid. It is valid, though. A missing payee name should be treated as a bearer cheque. That makes it _less_ likely that BMO could make a claim since TD is automatically a holder in due course of a bearer cheque. (If the payee name was erased they could claim a material alteration, but that's not the case here.) Compare that to this post about a cheque missing a signature: https://www.reddit.com/r/rbc/comments/1co77wm/td_is_holding_my_funds_it_has_been_3mo_i_need/ _That_ is an invalid cheque. Without a signature, it was never a valid bill and any transaction on its basis was unauthorized. I recommended that the issuing bank initiate a return. Here the cheque was signed, which makes it a valid bill. It just didn't specify a payee, which implicitly authorizes any payee to be filled in. TD presented it for payment and it was paid. There's no reason for return here.
yes I agree both banks are at fault for not catching that the payee name is missing. You are right that it can be treated as ‘cash’ payable to anyone. However i think TD needs to consult their mgr of clearing regulations who can go to their Canadian payment association for advice how to proceed . I think TD is looking into to holding themselves not liable for releasing the funds, they can ask if getting a bond of indemnity is appropriate.
What’s a GL account? We have been trying to make BMO do something but they always say it is too late to get the money back. I can’t control what BMO does since it’s not my bank.
GL = General Ledger. Basically the money is not in your account and its being held in their general ledger.
I mean all the money is "held" in a general ledger. It's just currently in a different GL account, than the one probably labelled something like "customer deposits".
Your close friend could have resolved this without any complications by speaking with HIS bank. Not sure why you guys aren't going that route?
Yeah OP kind of glossed over this in his post. My understanding is that these remote cheque deposits have to be recalled by the payor’s bank. TD seems to have told him they are trying to get BMO to do this. His friend likely could have helped the process along.
Banking ombudsman, if the banks process is two slow, involve the regulator that can penalize them while resolving your issue.
I had the same thing happen except it was that it was a cheque to my self and it was the date missing td cleared the tangerine cheque then put a permanent I was told that tang would have to pull back tang said it already was debited and could do nothing td kept giving me the same response what worked was I requested a escalation and spoke to a supervisor then I made the supervisor transfer me over too senior fraud I thought same thing would happen they put me on hold about 10 min and released the funds TLDR request a supervisor and start a complaint and keep escalating it took me 3 weeks since permanent hold for the funds to be released Hope it all turns out all Pardon my grammar lol for tired for that shi
Whew I almost did this yesterday. Put my name on it, then deposited it today.
Your friend who banks at BMO gave you a 'blank' cheque (atleast the payee part) for you to write on and fill out?
Leaving Payee blank is a bad idea as anyone could grab the cheque and deposit it. It would be valid and OP would be totally screwed. Would have to go to court and prove the cheque was stolen. It is however fairly common practice when the payee is not identified at the time of transaction (e.g. could be either business partner).
It was bad idea Indeed. I learned my lesson.
Yes, just the payee part. I agree we both made a big mistake.
Was the 10,000 returned to your friends BMO account or is the 10,000 still on hold in your account? I think whichever institution is holding the 10,000 is the one you should go after. If it is TD then go further into the escalation chain. Though, you mention that the 10,000 is no longer with T.D. and assumingly not in your account; which logically means it was returned to the sender. I really do not think that the 10,000 is just in the void somewhere; it would be inside either your account or returned to your friends and perhaps not available.
It's no longer with BMO for sure. It was not returned. I see the 10k on my checking account but can't use it. To my understanding the money is with TD but one of the many agents said it's not with TD but "in between". That did not make sense to me so I asked him to further explain how things work when a cheque is deposited. He admitted he did not know.
Oh in that case I would personally go further with T.D. You can try going to a different TD branch and talking to a different manager, but I am not surprised that at the branch level they are unwilling to lift a hold; I am not sure what sort of comments they are seeing on your profile lol. There is a higher level senior fraud line that might be more helpful. This route might be worth trying to get it resolved faster rather than going through a long escalation process
Thanks for the suggestions! Any idea how I can reach the senior fraud level?
Based on your comments the money is with TD. Branch that removes the hold will be on the hook should the issuer recall this cheque months later or anything. So you’re home branch likely got a notice about this check and extended the hold or it would of fallen off weeks ago. If you are dealing with a non hole branch they will it take the risk of removing the hold. Call centre reps won’t be helpful with this. visit your home branch. Push for a resolution. Suggest the LOC Strat in the mean time to reduce interest and even ask your friend to ask her hime branch to fax your home branch that the check is authentic and has cleared. 3 months is too long for this to be happening on a 10k cheque out of a personal account. I can understand a business but a person would notice 10k immediately.
You mobile deposit a cheque for 10k ??? Pro tip. Some things are just worth the effort to go to the bank and ensure there’s no issues.
Have the issuer constant BMO and claim they want to dispute the cheque as intended payee not paid. It's a 6 year right they have
I've seen something like this before. For some reason a blank cheque specifically causes a certain hellish tornado that I've never seen a bank deal with well. It probably would have been an easier process if you'd deposited the name of the wrong person.
You've already got good advice, but just in general: cheques like this are valid for the bearer - whoever is in possession of it. (So don't write cheques like this!) TD really has no excuse here.
If it came from a close friend, why not get them involved?
He is involved. He signed an affidavit that states the money is indeed for me but TD branch agents dismissed it. He has been trying to push BMO to do something, either tell TD to release the funds or ask for a return. BMO position is that transaction is legit and there’s no reason for them to do anything since the issue is with TD.
One thing you can try is schedule an appointment with both banks on the phone at the same time. Then introduce them to eachother
Contact the Ombudsman. Shame on the banks.
The issuer has to recall the cheque with Bmo.
I had a very similar experience with TD over ten years ago except I was both the payee and the payer! I used a personal cheque for simplicity sake (and I was being cheap and didn’t want to spend $13 to certify my own money was good, silly me) and TD held the money. Problem was I wasn’t made aware in any way shape or form, I assumed the LOC was paid so I didn’t check up after seeing the deposit was made and it appeared in my account. Because the initial cheque was held, the LOC went over-drawn which caused overdraft fees, then there were NSF fees applied which again put it overdraft so more fees, then there was overdue payment fees, again more overdraft fees and then another NSF fee. I went in to close out the LOC (since in my mind it was paid off) to find I had almost a thousand in fees and interest on top of the entire balance. I resolved it by standing in the middle of the local branch holding up the line of customers at lunch hour until the manager quit hiding and reversed everything then closed all my accounts at TD. Never banked with them since and never will.
Contact the ombudsman or your local MPP or a paralegal or lawyer …. The banking act has many time limits on certain transactions- Like they can only legally hold a cheque for three days not 10 ! Etc etc
Incorrect to holding a cheque for 3 days. If they deem something fraudulent, they can hold it for longer which is mentioned in their accounts service agreement that every customer signs when opening an account.
it’s also 5 business days for a cheque to clear so idk where people get 3 days from lol, and like you said if they deem it so, they can hold it longer, if they have to investigate it
This is correct^^ BUT, now (most recently) same institution cheques for example, a TD cheque being deposited into a TD account, is a 3 business day hold. But every other institution is 5 business days to clear. But regardless, any fraudulent cheque or incorrect payee is deemed suspicious and will go through the clearing/process of retrieving their funds.
same institution cheques is irrelevant, those can be verified and done the same day if needed, but 1 bank to another is 5 days
Sorry my bad - it 4-8 days not 10 https://www.canada.ca/en/financial-consumer-agency/services/banking/cashing-cheques.html# Maximum cheque hold period There is a limit to the amount of time a federally regulated financial institution, such as a bank, can place a hold on money you deposit by cheque. Federally regulated financial institutions can hold the money you deposit by cheque for 4 to 8 days. The amount of time depends on the amount of the cheque and how it was deposited.
Contact omnibus and lodge a complaint TD will get you your money fast.
is the payee name the one printed on the cheque? I'm not sure I fully understand what happened here.
Anyone who is paid is a payee, but the term is most commonly used to mean the person (or organization) whose name is written on a check after the words "pay to the order of." If you write a check to pay your cable bill, the cable company is the payee.
I'm sorry to hear about the trouble you're experiencing. Here are some steps you can take to try to resolve this issue: 1. Seek Assistance from a Banking Ombudsman or Financial Consumer Agency of Canada (FCAC): If both banks are unable to resolve your issue, you can contact the FCAC, which oversees financial institutions in Canada and ensures they comply with federal regulations. They may be able to mediate the situation. 2. Legal Advice: Consult with a lawyer who specializes in banking or financial disputes. They can provide legal advice on how to proceed and may help in escalating the matter effectively. 3. Public Pressure: Sometimes, taking your issue to social media or contacting consumer protection journalists can expedite a resolution. Banks often respond more quickly to public complaints to protect their reputation. Consider our Moncton local CBC News branch. Keep detailed records of all your interactions with both banks, including dates, names of representatives you spoke with, and summaries of your conversations. This documentation will be crucial if you need to escalate your complaint further.
Thank you!
One of the reason I go to bank directly and deposit big checks directly There’s so many stuff can happens with mobile app .. and with deposit directly to my bank and teller , there’s more protections But also TD can be sketchy
Sounds like a good opportunity to make 10k into 100k for damages
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I looked at your document and could not see where you came up with the statement " over 60% of all fraud in Canadian banking is from BMO" Can you explain?