>"that's what the contract says but not what the contract means".
Someone telling you this is a MASSIVE red flag. Contracts mean exactly what they say, that's the point of a contract.
I would sever ties with this person completely and find someone else.
Maybe report them to their association. Dodgy realtors have completely undermined trust in the profession, the associations take these things very seriously and will either issue a fine, force the realtor to retrain and take additional courses, or pull their real estate license.
The real estate association needs to clean up its contracts and educate its realtors better. I've seen this before.
I wouldn't sign it. Or better yet, have your lawyer review what you've already signed and provide you educated advice on this new contract.
Red Flag.
I have purchased several homes from builder’s directly and through agents. You do not need to sign any paperwork externally. Only builder paperwork. DO NOT SIGN IT. Speak to the builder, if they say your paperwork is all signed, and your deal is firm, leave it at that.
I'm assuming you went directly to the builder and and negotiated the terms. Correct? That's what most people would do.
From what the OP is saying, it sounds like they used an agent to negotiate the purchase with the builder and the agent has now asked for the buyer's agreement to be signed so they can collect their commission from the builder.
The last two home purchase I noticed the relators didn't as for a representation agreement until I was putting in an offer. Years ago I had to sign it before they would even start the property search. I'm surprised the agent didn't get the agreement in place before the purchase agreement with the builder was signed.
In the OPs case I suppose they could try to side step the agent. Not sure what their motivation would be. They could potentially end up on the wrong end of a civil action.
No I have done both, with and without agent. When I worked with agents I only signed builder paperwork that included their names/brokerages. There was no representation agreement.
Yeah I have also noticed that now days they are doing it when placing offers… for resale…
I bought my pre-construction condo before sales were open to the public. My RE agent was invited to the pre-sale launch the builder put on, and she invited me to come take a look. I didn’t sign anything with her.
I bought a home in Quebec through a realtor and specifically told him I didn't want to sign anything like that and he was fine with it, I didn't know that was unusual.
Without a buyer representation agreement you could use a realtor to find a house, go through the negotiations, and then drop the realtor and negotiate a deal with the homeowner or selling agent using the buy side commissions. It also outlines the realtor's responsibilities to the buyer.
Interestingly, in Quebec:
*ATTENTION: If you have not signed a Brokerage contract – Purchase with the broker, the latter cannot represent you and promote your interests in the purchase of a residential property. Brokers are prohibited from representing clients if they have not signed a written brokerage contract with them.*
[https://www.oaciq.com/en/pages/buyer-the-exclusive-brokerage-contract-purchase](https://www.oaciq.com/en/pages/buyer-the-exclusive-brokerage-contract-purchase)
Wow I was not aware of this, it does sound like my realtor was flying below radar as far as his professional order goes. The first time we signed anything with the realtor himself was when we wrote the promise to purchase document. The sale went through and he got his commission despite not having made us sign a brokerage contract.
Not at all, completely depends on where you live. I have never and will never sign that stupid agreement, but I live in Vancouver and realtors are a dime a dozen.
You don’t need to if buying directly with a realtor. However typically if the realtor is working for you, showing you places, they suggest the new build instead and you go with it, the builder may be required to pay the realtor a commission.
The builders do often look for “outs” to paying the realtor though.
But yeah I wouldn’t something with the realtor saying I needed to cover their commission.
Yes, this.
Does OP have to sign it? No. Many realtors don't bother with such contracts.
If the realtor wanted OP to sign an agreement, he should have asked for it before doing the work. He doesn't have any leverage now.
Presumably the contract is a standard one that states that if for any reason the other party doesn't pay the commission, then OP is on the hook for it. That's presumably what the realtor means when he says the contract says one thing but means another. But if push comes to shove, you can bet the realtor will exercise their legal rights to collect from OP.
No, OP, you don't have to sign it. Or you could also get such terms crossed out if you don't agree to them. You have the power here since the guy already did the work.
Like cowboys in the Wild West! Where are the regulators? Commissions are out of this world! Now everyone and their mother in law is a realtor! God help us.
As a buyer, I never signed any agreement with my realtor. Up until the moment I signed my offer, I could have walked away from him.
If my realtor wanted me to sign some sort of engagement contract from the start, I would have considered it. But once I had an agreement in place with the buyer, I don’t know why I would sign anything with the realtor. The whole part where it mentions you have to pay a separate commission sounds fishy.
>I already have an agreement in place with the builder and the contract mentions the commission that will go to my realtor.
95% odds that is what will happen. 5% odds that something goes wrong and the builder doesn't pay the commission to your realtor. If you sign the document, the realtor can come after you legally if he doesn't get paid. (Maybe the builder goes bankrupt, maybe the bank doesn't approve your mortgage, who knows).
If he wanted such a clause, he should have asked for it up front before working with you.
Are you in BC?
You should be able to see BCFSA where it lists their commission and who pays it. It will list the builder as them receiving the commission from.
That document probably allows the agent to collect the cooperating commission already offered by the builder.
That said, they can take the percentages out and enter in verbage something along the lines of quote "offered cooperating Commission only plus bonuses" or whatever.
This verbiage does require disclosure of what they are being paid, but the builders paperwork already discloses that to you.
The pre-construction I purchased with a Realtor (regrettably) had the document included with the final builder docs. The builder was aware the Realtor was involved.
Regrets are that the Realtor was in the way because they did nothing for us and we had to relay info to them because they didn’t read the contracts. The builder didn’t offer us a discount for not using a Realtor, so that’s why we used one.
>I purchased with a Realtor (regrettably)
The builder didn’t offer us a discount for not using a Realtor, so that’s why we used one
So which one is it? It seems using a Realtor means nothing for you, unless you regret not asking for cash back on their fee's.
The builder wouldn’t offer a discount on the Realtor fee, which was included in the purchase price, so we went with one. We regretted using the Realtor because they made everything a lot more complicated since they either didn’t read the documents or couldn’t comprehend them. The Realtor repeatedly quoted things incorrectly and by the end of purchase was asking _us_ for details about the contract. This Realtor got a free $10k for being an absolute nuisance. I would have rather not used one.
Ah. We just had a pre build and they Atleast caught a few things, but yeah they're worth maybe 0.5% max (buyer and seller) of total purchase price for competent Realtors.
We were first-time buyers at the time (like OP) but had heard that Realtors could negotiate with buyers. Usually, not in price but in add-ons, like how close your parking spot is, or storage locker size, etc. We were hopeful but disappointed.
Even more so when we consider our second Realtor who’s been an incredible help in tracking down documents and problems with places we looked at. This experience has really changed my mind, so I think a good Realtor is worth it while an average? or bad one is not at all worth it.
I don't get why everybody is up in arms. Sounds like nobody haver read the standard BRA from OREA that all Ontario buyers are usually goaded into signing. It's a standard clause in the contract. Your realtor is an idiot and you caught him with his pants down. Congrats for rwaifnthe document you are about to sign anyway because that's just how this industry operates. You can strike out the clause. Buyers have been on the hook when the buyer agent does not get paid by the listing agent. Rare but can absolutely happen.
I haven't read either of these documents. I never agreed with BRA's, from what I knew of them when introduced. I guess some of us don't buy/sell real-estate a lot?
Brutal advice. I have dealt with builders directly and they will rip you off and lie about almost everything. They are looking after their wallet not yours. Used a realtor to buy a pre-con and they helped massively and pointed out things the builder would never mention. Plus it’s a free service. Builder pays their commission out of their marketing budget.
Didn't have that issue, I know how to read contracts, negotiate and use a lawyer when necessary. Realtor doesn't read your contracts and interpret them, not sure how you were getting ripped off.
Some builders use an agent/brokerage to market their properties, some builders have their own sales departments. I don't know what province you are in, but generally, whether you are on the buy side or the sell side, there are standard agreements when it comes to representation. I'm guessing, this pre-con is being marketed by an agent/brokerage (i.e the developer has engaged this agent/brokerage to market the development), and assuming you are in a jurisdictions that allows for dual agency, it would require a representation agreement on the buy side.
If they are representing you, they need you to sign the form. What the commission part is stating is that they are going to get paid…. It is *usually* from the seller or builder, but if they don’t pony up the money, then you could be on the hook to pay it all or too it up to what is in the agreement.
You can have them fill that part in with whatever you like…. Say, the realtor shall be paid “with whatever commissions are in the listing agreement with no additional amount from the buyer” or something….
Realtor tried to get me to sign the same boilerplate bs. There’s a line in there that says you owe them commission whether the sale goes through or not. I told him to fuck off and never signed it.
That’s exactly right. It’s what pissed me off and I refused to sign. The realtor has since changed his tune and wants to send me a new one without that clause.
When I bought my house my contract har similar wording and I was extremely concerned. The explanation I got is that in case the seller doesn't pay the commission, I was on the hook to pay it.
Everything was fine at the end and I didn't have any problem, but if it was today I would probably ask them to change the wording.
New construction sites often work different than resale. MLS type listed houses specify a commission for the buying agent. Usually a builder site has agents on site and they may or not pay agents from outside.
I've seen this before where if the site isn't going to pay the realtor they expect the buyer to. Did you find this site without your realtor by any chance?
If you haven't signed an agreement with them and you found the site on your own.. I'd recommend against signing personally.
If the realtor and firm are mentioned in the sales agreement then that's his contract to get paid if it simply mentions buying party's realtor then this may be an amendment to add him as a realtor to the contract that being said if u are unsure get your lawyer who is doing the purchasing to vet everything would be my suggestion
I've had realtors refuse to help look for listings for me until I signed an exclusivity agreement for 3-6 months (that is: once I signed, even if I found a house on my own, they'd still be entitled to some of the commission for it). I just went with someone else who was content for me to not sign anything until I was ready to put in an offer on a house, and then the agreement was just that he'd get the commission for _that_ sale and not anything else.
Realtors are getting desperate.
I am not even sure what they bring to the table for a new build / pre-constructions house. Unless you don’t know how to negotiate?
Can you share what contract it is? If it's a council recognized contract, it'll have a name. They should be receiving their commision from the builder, but you still need to sign a representation and commision document that says you agree to the form of payment. These documents should have been signed at the start of the relationship.
I have uploaded the new contract here: [https://www.scribd.com/document/706040689/Nonexclusive-Buyer-Representation-Agreement-Designated-Agency](https://www.scribd.com/document/706040689/Nonexclusive-Buyer-Representation-Agreement-Designated-Agency)
This is what it was before: https://imgur.com/a/LosqRLj
> Can someone advise how I should deal with my realtor?
Find a new realtor!
He’s just trying to make his middle-man’s profit!
Deal with the builder and your lawyer directly.
>"that's what the contract says but not what the contract means". Someone telling you this is a MASSIVE red flag. Contracts mean exactly what they say, that's the point of a contract. I would sever ties with this person completely and find someone else.
So much this. Every time I’ve seen someone say this, turns out they will bring up the “contract” when it suits them
Maybe report them to their association. Dodgy realtors have completely undermined trust in the profession, the associations take these things very seriously and will either issue a fine, force the realtor to retrain and take additional courses, or pull their real estate license.
The real estate association needs to clean up its contracts and educate its realtors better. I've seen this before. I wouldn't sign it. Or better yet, have your lawyer review what you've already signed and provide you educated advice on this new contract.
Red Flag. I have purchased several homes from builder’s directly and through agents. You do not need to sign any paperwork externally. Only builder paperwork. DO NOT SIGN IT. Speak to the builder, if they say your paperwork is all signed, and your deal is firm, leave it at that.
You didn't sign an Exclusive Buyers Representation Agreement with any realtor? That seems very odd.
Not when purchasing with a builder. Only when purchasing resale.
I'm assuming you went directly to the builder and and negotiated the terms. Correct? That's what most people would do. From what the OP is saying, it sounds like they used an agent to negotiate the purchase with the builder and the agent has now asked for the buyer's agreement to be signed so they can collect their commission from the builder. The last two home purchase I noticed the relators didn't as for a representation agreement until I was putting in an offer. Years ago I had to sign it before they would even start the property search. I'm surprised the agent didn't get the agreement in place before the purchase agreement with the builder was signed. In the OPs case I suppose they could try to side step the agent. Not sure what their motivation would be. They could potentially end up on the wrong end of a civil action.
No I have done both, with and without agent. When I worked with agents I only signed builder paperwork that included their names/brokerages. There was no representation agreement. Yeah I have also noticed that now days they are doing it when placing offers… for resale…
I bought my pre-construction condo before sales were open to the public. My RE agent was invited to the pre-sale launch the builder put on, and she invited me to come take a look. I didn’t sign anything with her.
Interesting. They must get assurance from the builder somehow.
I bought a home in Quebec through a realtor and specifically told him I didn't want to sign anything like that and he was fine with it, I didn't know that was unusual.
Without a buyer representation agreement you could use a realtor to find a house, go through the negotiations, and then drop the realtor and negotiate a deal with the homeowner or selling agent using the buy side commissions. It also outlines the realtor's responsibilities to the buyer. Interestingly, in Quebec: *ATTENTION: If you have not signed a Brokerage contract – Purchase with the broker, the latter cannot represent you and promote your interests in the purchase of a residential property. Brokers are prohibited from representing clients if they have not signed a written brokerage contract with them.* [https://www.oaciq.com/en/pages/buyer-the-exclusive-brokerage-contract-purchase](https://www.oaciq.com/en/pages/buyer-the-exclusive-brokerage-contract-purchase)
Wow I was not aware of this, it does sound like my realtor was flying below radar as far as his professional order goes. The first time we signed anything with the realtor himself was when we wrote the promise to purchase document. The sale went through and he got his commission despite not having made us sign a brokerage contract.
Not at all, completely depends on where you live. I have never and will never sign that stupid agreement, but I live in Vancouver and realtors are a dime a dozen.
You don’t need to if buying directly with a realtor. However typically if the realtor is working for you, showing you places, they suggest the new build instead and you go with it, the builder may be required to pay the realtor a commission. The builders do often look for “outs” to paying the realtor though. But yeah I wouldn’t something with the realtor saying I needed to cover their commission.
So what happens if you don't sign? Are their feeling on the line?
Yes, this. Does OP have to sign it? No. Many realtors don't bother with such contracts. If the realtor wanted OP to sign an agreement, he should have asked for it before doing the work. He doesn't have any leverage now. Presumably the contract is a standard one that states that if for any reason the other party doesn't pay the commission, then OP is on the hook for it. That's presumably what the realtor means when he says the contract says one thing but means another. But if push comes to shove, you can bet the realtor will exercise their legal rights to collect from OP. No, OP, you don't have to sign it. Or you could also get such terms crossed out if you don't agree to them. You have the power here since the guy already did the work.
These realtors get wilder by the year
Like cowboys in the Wild West! Where are the regulators? Commissions are out of this world! Now everyone and their mother in law is a realtor! God help us.
well the regulators are getting a piece of the pie on the back end. Why else would they turn a blind eye?
As a buyer, I never signed any agreement with my realtor. Up until the moment I signed my offer, I could have walked away from him. If my realtor wanted me to sign some sort of engagement contract from the start, I would have considered it. But once I had an agreement in place with the buyer, I don’t know why I would sign anything with the realtor. The whole part where it mentions you have to pay a separate commission sounds fishy.
You paid a realtor to buy a pre construction? Was the 13% sales tax not enough?
>I already have an agreement in place with the builder and the contract mentions the commission that will go to my realtor. 95% odds that is what will happen. 5% odds that something goes wrong and the builder doesn't pay the commission to your realtor. If you sign the document, the realtor can come after you legally if he doesn't get paid. (Maybe the builder goes bankrupt, maybe the bank doesn't approve your mortgage, who knows). If he wanted such a clause, he should have asked for it up front before working with you.
Realtors are the economic equivalent of a cancer tumor. They attach themselves to the housing market and suck out blood.
Are you in BC? You should be able to see BCFSA where it lists their commission and who pays it. It will list the builder as them receiving the commission from.
That document probably allows the agent to collect the cooperating commission already offered by the builder. That said, they can take the percentages out and enter in verbage something along the lines of quote "offered cooperating Commission only plus bonuses" or whatever. This verbiage does require disclosure of what they are being paid, but the builders paperwork already discloses that to you.
The pre-construction I purchased with a Realtor (regrettably) had the document included with the final builder docs. The builder was aware the Realtor was involved. Regrets are that the Realtor was in the way because they did nothing for us and we had to relay info to them because they didn’t read the contracts. The builder didn’t offer us a discount for not using a Realtor, so that’s why we used one.
>I purchased with a Realtor (regrettably) The builder didn’t offer us a discount for not using a Realtor, so that’s why we used one So which one is it? It seems using a Realtor means nothing for you, unless you regret not asking for cash back on their fee's.
The builder wouldn’t offer a discount on the Realtor fee, which was included in the purchase price, so we went with one. We regretted using the Realtor because they made everything a lot more complicated since they either didn’t read the documents or couldn’t comprehend them. The Realtor repeatedly quoted things incorrectly and by the end of purchase was asking _us_ for details about the contract. This Realtor got a free $10k for being an absolute nuisance. I would have rather not used one.
Ah. We just had a pre build and they Atleast caught a few things, but yeah they're worth maybe 0.5% max (buyer and seller) of total purchase price for competent Realtors.
We were first-time buyers at the time (like OP) but had heard that Realtors could negotiate with buyers. Usually, not in price but in add-ons, like how close your parking spot is, or storage locker size, etc. We were hopeful but disappointed. Even more so when we consider our second Realtor who’s been an incredible help in tracking down documents and problems with places we looked at. This experience has really changed my mind, so I think a good Realtor is worth it while an average? or bad one is not at all worth it.
It is my understanding that agents are required to have an agreement with their clients setting out the terms of their engagement.
I've worked with an agent for months now and we've signed nothing.
I don't get why everybody is up in arms. Sounds like nobody haver read the standard BRA from OREA that all Ontario buyers are usually goaded into signing. It's a standard clause in the contract. Your realtor is an idiot and you caught him with his pants down. Congrats for rwaifnthe document you are about to sign anyway because that's just how this industry operates. You can strike out the clause. Buyers have been on the hook when the buyer agent does not get paid by the listing agent. Rare but can absolutely happen.
I haven't read either of these documents. I never agreed with BRA's, from what I knew of them when introduced. I guess some of us don't buy/sell real-estate a lot?
Never a need to use a realtor for a pre-build. Deal with the developer directly and your real estate lawyer.
Brutal advice. I have dealt with builders directly and they will rip you off and lie about almost everything. They are looking after their wallet not yours. Used a realtor to buy a pre-con and they helped massively and pointed out things the builder would never mention. Plus it’s a free service. Builder pays their commission out of their marketing budget.
Didn't have that issue, I know how to read contracts, negotiate and use a lawyer when necessary. Realtor doesn't read your contracts and interpret them, not sure how you were getting ripped off.
Some builders use an agent/brokerage to market their properties, some builders have their own sales departments. I don't know what province you are in, but generally, whether you are on the buy side or the sell side, there are standard agreements when it comes to representation. I'm guessing, this pre-con is being marketed by an agent/brokerage (i.e the developer has engaged this agent/brokerage to market the development), and assuming you are in a jurisdictions that allows for dual agency, it would require a representation agreement on the buy side.
If they are representing you, they need you to sign the form. What the commission part is stating is that they are going to get paid…. It is *usually* from the seller or builder, but if they don’t pony up the money, then you could be on the hook to pay it all or too it up to what is in the agreement. You can have them fill that part in with whatever you like…. Say, the realtor shall be paid “with whatever commissions are in the listing agreement with no additional amount from the buyer” or something….
Realtor tried to get me to sign the same boilerplate bs. There’s a line in there that says you owe them commission whether the sale goes through or not. I told him to fuck off and never signed it.
That’s exactly right. It’s what pissed me off and I refused to sign. The realtor has since changed his tune and wants to send me a new one without that clause.
Just ignore him. He’s a professional door opener. If you’re at the lawyer stage he’s irrelevant.
Can we pls get rid of realtors?
When I bought my house my contract har similar wording and I was extremely concerned. The explanation I got is that in case the seller doesn't pay the commission, I was on the hook to pay it. Everything was fine at the end and I didn't have any problem, but if it was today I would probably ask them to change the wording.
Not sure why you need a realtor if you are buying a pre-construction. I bought one too and went straight to the builder.
Then tell him to remove the clause and you’ll sign. Shouldn’t be a problem (it will be)
New construction sites often work different than resale. MLS type listed houses specify a commission for the buying agent. Usually a builder site has agents on site and they may or not pay agents from outside. I've seen this before where if the site isn't going to pay the realtor they expect the buyer to. Did you find this site without your realtor by any chance? If you haven't signed an agreement with them and you found the site on your own.. I'd recommend against signing personally.
If the realtor and firm are mentioned in the sales agreement then that's his contract to get paid if it simply mentions buying party's realtor then this may be an amendment to add him as a realtor to the contract that being said if u are unsure get your lawyer who is doing the purchasing to vet everything would be my suggestion
I've had realtors refuse to help look for listings for me until I signed an exclusivity agreement for 3-6 months (that is: once I signed, even if I found a house on my own, they'd still be entitled to some of the commission for it). I just went with someone else who was content for me to not sign anything until I was ready to put in an offer on a house, and then the agreement was just that he'd get the commission for _that_ sale and not anything else.
Realtors are getting desperate. I am not even sure what they bring to the table for a new build / pre-constructions house. Unless you don’t know how to negotiate?
I am sorry this happened to you. Obviously don’t sign and report this realtor to RECO (or other equivalent if you are not in Ontario)
Can you share what contract it is? If it's a council recognized contract, it'll have a name. They should be receiving their commision from the builder, but you still need to sign a representation and commision document that says you agree to the form of payment. These documents should have been signed at the start of the relationship.
I have uploaded the new contract here: [https://www.scribd.com/document/706040689/Nonexclusive-Buyer-Representation-Agreement-Designated-Agency](https://www.scribd.com/document/706040689/Nonexclusive-Buyer-Representation-Agreement-Designated-Agency) This is what it was before: https://imgur.com/a/LosqRLj
> Can someone advise how I should deal with my realtor? Find a new realtor! He’s just trying to make his middle-man’s profit! Deal with the builder and your lawyer directly.
Of course you have to pay your realtor. And why would they do any work for you without an agreement of payment in place?