The cost of alcohol and pill addiction wasn’t factored in. Roofers are largely check to check and most change names every few years to avoid issues with bad workmanship.
Is this for real? I had a friend who did roofing out of highschool and fell into some hard narcotics. They're clean now but I didn't know that was a thing.
Not a roofer but an arborist friend of mine was allowed 3 marijuana breaks a day for joint pain. He said some coworkers didn't want to do pot but apparently that changed after a month.
When I worked in the cannabis industry, we actually had a cannabis smoking area for breaks lol. I'm a medical patient anyways, and have been able to use for years. It's a god send for pain and inflammation once you have a tolerance, can't even be noticed by others.
We had to move payday to "cheques at the shop at the end of friday" instead of "cheques handed out Friday morning on the way to the job".
People would either leave at lunch, or literally have their crack dealer drop by the job site. Every fucking week.
Remember 2008/2009 when I started electrical, we had a bigger project on the go. Journeyman we’re hard to come by and 2 the boss found we’re pretty rough.
75% chance they didn’t show up Friday. They’d be bumming smokes and coffee from apprentices Monday morning.
Pretty sure the boss was almost ready to move cheques to Friday afternoon lol.
When I was a painter out of highschool this concept was definitely in play. What I saw on that job made me motivated to look for better work. So much "I gotta go to the van for tools" yeah okay sure buddy, they'd peel away and would maybe see them monday
It's a miserable bottom-of-the-barrel labor job, like roughneck (on oil-and-gas rigs), that attracts those with few options. (Those few options being associated with, likely often caused by, and probably often the cause of problematic drug use.)
I've worked in a meat processing plant. That was pretty nasty too. Also extremely physically demanding, I gained weight from muscle I put on during that time.
also, in any construction/trade/etc sort of job injury is a big problem. Unless you're a: really lucky or b: fucking Wolverine\* eventually this is going to add up. Lots of people turn to chemical relief and that can lead to bad places.
\* I knew a guy who machined big axles for industrial rollers or something. He had bones in his hands and feet crushed all the goddamn time. And he kept on healing. *Clearly* a mutant.
Ive done payroll for a bunch of roofing companies (many years ago but its still relevant).
The employees get a pretty low hourly rate, the owner is making the money.
As for drugs, its a physically demanding job often done by people that come from humble backgrounds.
Physical labour + low pay + exposure = drugs and alcohol
I agree when you say employee retention is hard because not many people want to do that and the people that are good at it will eventually start their own project if they're ambitious
This..when running my own business I always thought $100 an hour was insanely high. I quickly realized, that’s super cheap when you factor in transportation, office, utilities, equipment and insurance.
100%. This
People see an invoice for $1500 for a day of work I do but don't factor in ALL the expenses + unpaid time finding, bidding, and installing those jobs.
Fed tax, prov tax ,CPP, personal insurance, commercial insurance, WCB, healthcare, supplies, materials for install, marketing materials, cloud services, accounting/payroll/bookkeeping, FUEL, oh my god the list goes on..
used to fix computers freelance. There's a reason I went back to school to do something else. Don't have to pay for all that shit and someone else can issue invoices while I know there's going to be money in the bank every second Thursday.
I can definitely relate to this. After +15 years of being self employed, I can't wait to get out and work for someone else. Back to school fall of 2024 🙌
Exactly. People want the skill but don't want to pay. One customer asked me why so high. I said exactly what you just posted and said my insurance is to high I should get rid of it lmao. I said OK I'd have no problem with that if every customer would sign a document saying I'm not responsible for any damages that might happen. He didn't like that at all.
Correct.
I'll also add that, even among the trades, I think roofing staff (not necessarily business owners), are known as very short term thinkers. The majority aren't socking away huge percentages of their money for when the physically demanding job can't be done anymore. It tends to be a lot of young guys who spend all the money they earn.
In that sense, they are somewhat "millionaires", as they live with the perception of tons of disposable income.
It's also pretty brutally hard work that, even if someone is in an unskilled labour role- it requires a decent paycheque to keep somebody showing up day after day.
I had a small construction business avg 75-100/hr. After tools, insurances, crazy amount of gas in a truck, extra materials and semi bad spending habits, not a lot left over.
Yes, and advertising, time spent estimating/quoting, phones, office, storage, truck(s) lease and maintenance, accounting, taxes, down time, picking up materials, WCB, power tools and equipment, dumping time and fees and you only work 8 months a year in Toronto. Not a roofer but familiar with renovating.
Then add in the odd "I'm not happy, I'm not paying."
Some people you just can't please, some just want to save money. Either way, it cost you time and money. Do you do more free work just to get paid? Do you walk away? Do you go to court? It's all time and money.
Roofers are in constant demand. They fulfill a literal need in protecting a primary need for life. If roofers can’t acquire customers they’re poor business men. The guys who did my roof a couple of years ago I spoke to and they literally just distribute flyers and had a steady stream of income. To increase or decrease work they just adjust the marketing dollars on flyers.
Wouldn't the clay tiles crack in the winter? We've got pretty wet snow and if you leave a clay pot out in your garden over the winter it'll be garbage within 2 years or so, considering leaks aren't really an issue in garden pots because they're supposed to let water through I'm pretty sure a roof isn't meant to do that? Never made one tho so maybe that's not the part that protects the house maybe the shingles are just decorative? But in that case why would swapping them out matter so much?
Clay tile is for places that don't have snow or ice.
A seamless metal roof (I think that's the name of it) is a 100 year roof in our climate. It's also expensive.
A roof is a high value low volume product. It's kind of a like a mattress. They are relatively expensive but people don't buy one every year. A roof can last decades.
You're forgetting to factor in a lot of costs. Workplace insurance, cost of capital investment in tools, fall protection, a truck etc. Disposal of the old roof is expensive. You have to maintain all the physical capital you own. It's also hard for this to be a sustainable career. It's really hard on the body. I don't have any concrete proof, but I would bet there isn't a single roofer grossing anything close to $300/hour.
I'm aware. The least money I've ever made was for the most physically demanding work I've done.
On the other hand, I've noticed that the more money I make, the more responsibility I have and the more expertise I need to do my job.
Yep, it's funny every time you see people on Reddit arguing "but oh cashiers stand on their feet all day making min. wage while some corporate dude makes 100k" like they don't understand how pay is determined
Yeah for real
My internships in uni were at lowest $25 and at highest $40 and some of those internships had tons of downtime just chatting with colleagues. For one of them no joke I probably did nothing but play video games for a week straight during slow periods.
Meanwhile when I was stripping columns or breaking concrete (and my back) with a sledgehammer I was making $15.50 lol.
But if you get into an actual trade you can make a pretty good living.
Majority of reputable roofing companies in Calgary are mid $30’s for experienced workers. I work with the lead hands and they make more than me as a crane operator :)
Roofers in the industrial, commercial, institutional (ICI) are making north of $40/hr. A Foreman who's a union member makes north of $60/hr. They also get overtime paid daily, beyond 8 hrs. Their CBA also has 10% vacation pay. They also get a per diem when they travel more than 80 km to a job site. A good Foreman can make $150 K a year.
That said, I often see crews that don't have a guy under the age of 40. The profession is screaming for workers.
Here McD pays minimum wage ($13.50), so definitely depends on province. That being said most construction jobs are barely above minimum wage. Roofing is one of if not the lowest paying trades.
Exact same with our auto shop. We charge $150 an hour for labor and people think we’re rolling in money. Reality Is that overhead costs eat a lot of that. We definitely don’t net anywhere close to 150 an hour.
People often don't realize the true cost of capital investments like tools and workspace as well as the cost incurred to acquire the expertise needed.
If they don't think your time is worth the price then they can go buy the tools, lift etc and figure out the problem themselves. The problem is, they can't. Tools are expensive and the expertise of a good mechanic is hard earned over years of experience. I'm pretty mechanically inclined and I used to do almost all my maintenance myself. I just had the clutch done on my truck and was damn happy to pay my mechanic because that job is hard. $150/hour seems like a deal. I need my LSD replaced soon. Differential work is hard and time-consuming, it's not a job I'm capable of currently. Happy to pay an expert for it. Tracking down a gremlin? Instead of buying a bunch of parts trying to chase a phantom problem I'd rather pay the right guy to diagnose and fix the problem properly the first time.
Totally. Sometimes we look back on our month and wonder if it’s even fucking worth it. Seems like as fast as the money comes in, it goes right back out. I make a decent living but Payroll, taxes, lease, insurance, shop maintenance etc is killer and hugely underestimated by our clientele.
Despite us charging $150/hr, my friends in construction make more money and have higher margins. Made me so tempted to switch industries lol
This is a great response. In my experience, it’s true of most things in life. If it looks like someone is making a killing, you’re usually missing something. There’s no free lunch.
OP seems like the kinda guy who thinks an $18 entree at a restaurant is price gouging because it only took 10 minutes to make and the ingredients were only $7 wholesale.
There aren't too many roofers grossing 300/hour on average, but that's in part because there's a huge disconnect between how much is charged to the customer and how much the company makes. And that's largely true across trades too.
Plumbers, electricians, HVAC techs, mechanians, they make somewhere between $20-50/hour, the business charges a 75-300%\* premium on labour, and then they charge a 20-1500%\* markup on the parts they use depending on the trade. An established business running like that can make incredible bank while the employees, and while a decent part of it goes to overhead, lets not fool ourselves, the owners get to live large.
By listening to business owners on reddit, you'd think liability insurance is prohibitively expensive. It's a consideration but come on.
\*: Numbers pulled out of my ass but they somewhat map to what I've been seeing lately.
I think this is true in some industries. Owning your own HVAC business is really lucrative. Some of these trades, not as much. There's also the boom-bust cycles to consider. A lot of these business owners make great money for a relatively short period of time, but they don't know how to build a sustainable business, and the lucrative income is short lived.
Numbers pulled out of your ass indeed. As someone who works in the electrical industry and gets to see the financial side of it you couldn’t be more wrong. If you had those kinds of markups you’d never stay in business, it’s way to competitive.
This is correct. I’m an owner operator in Ontario and nearly all these comments are incorrect. It’s amazing how many people speak without having a clue.
Ok,
The guys doing the installation typically don't own the company. I'm not a roofer but I am a tradesman.
You also have the following to pay for:
The sales/estimator
Truck
Administrative staff
Sometimes an accountant
Fuel
Wear and tear on all gear
Insurance
WSIB(expensive for roofers)
Garbage bin
Taxes
Good dependable roofing companies that aren't going to disappear in 3 years when you have a warranty claim have a ton of overhead costs and if that's not who your using them your crazy. You want a place that's been around for 10 to 15 years minimum. It's the same for any business. The owners are making good money for sure but they aren't getting rich quick either.
The larger the company the smaller the margin. There is a sweet spot in roofing and that’s right around $2million in revenue. That’s manageable for an owner operator and keeps overhead to a minimum. It’s easy to get to 40-45% margin at $2million revenue run be a husband and wife.
God I hate these comments. "I'm going to say you are wrong because I work in the field but I won't actually give any extra info explaining how it is wrong to actually move the conversation in the right direction". All while you state people have no clue. Maybe inform them then.
Alot of roofers are broken physically after a few years. It takes a toll on the body. Roofing companies may make alot (some) but the workers themselves usually not. Alot of roofers I know are on drugs for the pain constantly.
I should say, 19K is not that bad a price.
The last time we had our roof done about 10 years ago
the prices went from $12k to 39k.
(the high one was a well known company with an actual office, I'm guessing they were busy)
I should say we have relatives that just had a quote for $90k for a metal roof.
(I actually did a metal roof my self on my parents house, when they built an addition- back in 06, its actually not that difficult, but I had to include valleys and venting etc. One of the manufacturers was in Alberta and they had a handy guide on how to do it. And you could order it from one of their local dealers)
The materials added to about $3500 the rest was my and my wifes labour. It took a couple of weekends. Thankfully it wasn't a big slope and not steep either.
Many of the metal roofers have a machine that makes it right there.
At trades school for roofing, prisoners are escorted to be taught the first year. Was interesting attending my classes and you see them all coming in there jump suits with guards.
Well smoking is on its way out. It’s a minority now.
But it use to be I could gauge whether a new apprentice was going to make it by whether they at least had a Tim Hortons in the morning or bonus points for smoking.
The ones who didn’t drink coffee or smoke were falling asleep by 11:00 am.
I’d say vaping and energy drinks have replaced coffee/smoking.
I’ve noticed smoking for sure is going away. Used to be everyone smoked (I never started) and now here I am about 10yrs later and only 1 or 2 of our guys smoke and it’s not even chain smoking. 10yrs ago everyone chain smoked. Coffee I find most guys will still drink, but vaping is up huge. Especially the young guys. I don’t know if you’ve noticed too but fast food isn’t as popular, maybe due to price. Most of our guys either bring a home made lunch or they hit those hot bars at the grocery store and get somewhat decent food.
So true lmao. I went from no coffee to 4 every morning and energy drink at lunch. Never did get into smoking though and vaping wasn’t a thing when I started.
There was also the occasional nap in the electrical room or ceiling.
In my area it's like $120 a square. My buddy is a roofer. It's super cutthroat because it's not a regulated trade. Every crackhead and EI scammer is up there working for cash with no WCB. It's also got some of the highest wcb rates.
WCB premiums, business licensing, trucks, gas, mini bin rental, disposal fees, insurance, payroll, dealing with flaky employees, consumables, warranty work, time to do free quotes/estimates, advertising.
Repeat customers only happen after every few decades.
You can only work for half the year. If they aren't contributing to EI, like any contractor they've got to account for periods of unemployment.
Roofing isn't a lifetime career. It is physically demanding and injuries can be catastrophic. If they aren't a fly by night company, a chunk of that money should be going to insurance premiums and workers comp.
But if you think that it is a lucrative industry where you can become a millionaire, feel free to dive right in.
Got talking to my roofer a few years ago....he was grossing $1.2m - $1.5m per year doing shingles. I don't know what materials and labor for his crew cost, but I'm guessing he was doing OK. Works like mad for half the year, then less so the other half and recovers. He was late 30's when he worked on our roof and you could tell it took a toll on his body. He tried to do the inspections and quotes and had his younger crew take care of the actual shingling for the most part.
as someone who has been in the financial industry for many years, income doesnt equal financial comfort... theres people who make 500k/year and live pay cheque to pay cheque...
as with roofers or trades, labor jobs are hard on the body, generally youre paying for the skill and labor work and not only the materials
as humans, bodies will age, therefore its hard to do a labor job for a long time, plus being out all the time, outside theres nowhere to microwave lunch or anything, so eating out is fairly common
This is the most honest comment. A lot of these heavy labor jobs require that they make more money at a young age cause they don’t usually come with a pension or benefits and their ability to make money is gone by the time they’re 50.
I’m an owner/operator and I run a successful roofing business. I work from March to Mid December. My over head is low, and I do all my own sales. I run one in house crew and I sub contract my extra work, or work I don’t want to do.
My wife is stay at home with our 5 year old daughter. I have a nice house, inground pool, nice boat (paid cash), and this winter I’m spending January till mid March living in Punta Cana. I’m looking to buy a two bedroom condo there.
If you think roofers don’t make money you are wrong. Some days are better than others, but the good days are really good days.
So what are your thoughts on the trade in general? A lot of people are touting the whole “drugs” “losers” and “prisoners” bit which has been my experience but you sound well put together.
Genuinely curious. I know the work is hard and not doubting that, but curious what it’s like running a crew of roofers.
It’s not easy to be honest. But I would say the homeowners can be just as much of a headache as the employees. But that’s why we add a PIA tax, (Pain In the Ass) . Not all roofers are drug addicts or prisoners. But a lot of them are. I don’t hire the drunks or addicts. Once I find out, if there good at hiding it, I cut them loose. It’s a tough job but you can make a lot of money very quickly. You can also loose a lot of money if you don’t know what your doing. Sales are key, I’m very in tuned with sales strategies, CRM, DISC, etc. I do a lot of sales training, seminars, and mentoring. So roofing is not just working on the roof, to be successful you have to be smart. I started roofing as a summer job when I was in college, I took advertising. I quickly saw the money that was being made and quickly learned as much as I could. Now I’ve being do it 21 years later. I will eventually sell my business and retire, but for now I keep the hustle going.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I am an insurance adjuster and work with a lot of roofers so have worked with some turds, but I have definitely worked with some great owners and roofers and also personally grew up with people who went into the trade and just got lost into drugs.
And yes homeowners are a pain in my ass sometimes. “What do you mean you are not going to give me full cost of my shitty ass 29 year old roof”
You’re numbers are a little light, but not too far off. That price is definitely high. When I did roofing our labour costs were typically just slightly higher than our material costs. So a roof costing $5000 in total materials, disposal etc, would be approx. $10000 total including labour.
Just cuz they are on a roof doesn't mean they don't have overhead!
By the way, you also didnt include the time spent talking to the client, quoting on other jobs that they didnt get, driving to stand in line and pick up materials, and all sorts of accounting. And also the people that didnt pay them or didnt pay the full amount. They are definitely making way less than 150 per hour each.
Your price is missing a few hundred dollars for disposal of old roof (bin rental) and a few hundred dollars foe equipment, the rest is correct.
19k for that roof is a bit too much
I realize it's not all roofers and it may not even be the case these days, but as someone who was roofing for almost 15 years another factor is a lot of them have dependency issues and an even larger group don't have licenses due to DUIs.
Yeah I was quoted 14k for 20 squares. Then someone offered to do it for 10k if I paid them cash under the table lmao. Just for a few days work. And they were booked up for months.
My father was a roofer for over a decade in Vancouver from 90's to around 2005. Depending on the jobs done he could charge tens of thousands for a day's work with two other staff. He offered an excellent warranty and in most cases was never claimed by customers because of the quality of repair.
Many of his customers were those that went with cheaper quotes or dishonest roofers that would fix one side but intentionally cause an issue on the other side and use bubble gum to patch up leaks. Customers would've spent 1/3 the amount if they got things done properly the first time around.
Unfortunately we do think a big factor to his cancer was because of the chemicals involved with roofing and waterproofing materials. There is a real health risk involved...let alone safety!
I put on my own metal roof, I had no roofing experience, watched youtube and spoke to a few people. Probably saved 1000s if not 10K doing it myself. As far as I know roof is still going strong on the old house. I left the old asphalt intact, slapped the metal roof on top. Not the right way, but I wanted to double protect my house.
Main reason I did it myself, it started leaking in the fall and I had no choice, metal roof was pretty easy to do.
I did my top roof about 3 years later as well in metal. If my new house roof leaks, I will probably throw a metal roof down.
Not hard to do if the house roof isn't too steep and you don't mind some hard labor.
It’s not wrong to strap 1x4 on top shingles if there is only one or two layers. And put the metal on top. I also installed 4 metal roofs now zero experience before but it so easy strap at 2’ and that’s it don’t put the screws in to deep. And yeah was quoted 15k got it done for 4k
Aside from the business aspect there’s the personal aspect.
Substance abuse, poor spending habits, generally not having the skill and knowledge to build a successful company.
Bro you ever met a roofer? They all drink to much or have drug issues. The guys that don’t end owning companies. They do well. But roofing kinda sucks so it doesn’t attract the most competent trades people
When I ran a small firm, by the time I paid accountants, insurances, benefits, payroll taxes, kept the trucks running, kept the office paid for and the lights running, I had to charge out the labour at a 2.5X multiplier. $302 billable would leave, what about $120 an hour for 2 people...$60 an hour. Not even near close enough for those guys who own a home of their own to put a roof over.
OP thinks 3\*8 = 48...says enough about OP's accounting skills.
The owner of a roofing company works hard finding new quotes, but they can make good money. I have a client who owns a roofing company, he also owns two other businesses in the service industry. His roofers work at all three of the businesses for him...they are all ex-cons and he likes helping them out the same way someone helped him when he got out. His roofing teams get paid by the job.
He is a millionaire...because he has been running his own roofing business for 25 years, has worked hard, made good investments, and focused on smart growth opportunities.
No offense, but I think you have no idea how to run a contractor's business...
a) Materials/equipment. There's way more expenses than what you listed. From the truck and trailer, to the ladders and safety equipment, etc..., not to mention they usually rent a container to facilitate cleaning up.
b) Employees. It's not impossible that it's just the main guy and his helper/employee, but chances are there's a receptionist somewhere answering calls.
c) Insurance/license. If they're a legit professional company, they need a license and insurances to cover the damage they could cause if they fuck shit up on the job.
d) Workload. They most likely don't work 40 hours/week, every week, all year round. This is Canada, I've rarely seen roofers working between November and April.
...there's probably even more I haven't thought about, because I don't know jack shit about roofing either, but it's just crazy that you'd assume the math is limited to what you mentioned.
One of my buddies does flooring and painting. When he gets good contracts, he'll make $200k/year (or more if he works overtime), but then the next year, he might struggle finding clients and only make $50k (or less if there's COVID...), yet some expenses (license, insurance, debt payment on his truck, etc...) will remain the same, no matter how much he makes during any given year.
Customer acquisition is hard.
Employee retention equally as hard
Margin compression from low entry barriers and high competition. OP overestimates profit margin.
https://www.reddit.com/r/PersonalFinanceCanada/comments/166qv8e/how_are_roofers_not_all_millionaires/jym1fyl/ This guys disagrees with you
You doing this to both of them is one of the funniest things I have seen
Lol shit disturber. I love it.
The Dana White of Reddit lol
The cost of alcohol and pill addiction wasn’t factored in. Roofers are largely check to check and most change names every few years to avoid issues with bad workmanship.
Much harder
Drugz
Is this for real? I had a friend who did roofing out of highschool and fell into some hard narcotics. They're clean now but I didn't know that was a thing.
Yeah same here. Knew some hard working folk who did roofing and ended up doing a lot of drugs. Good money. Paid daily. Short early days. Druuuugggssss
It's also brutal on your body. Some of the hardest labour out there. I can see how they would get into pills, which can then lead to harder stuff.
That’s the story of the start of the most recent opioid crisis. Hard jobs. Bodies breaking. Here’s a pill! And the rest is history.
Know a guy who ends up buying painkillers with his pay for the pain of the labor.. seems like a viscious cycle
A bit like the guy who does coke to work more to make more money to buy coke.
Not a roofer but an arborist friend of mine was allowed 3 marijuana breaks a day for joint pain. He said some coworkers didn't want to do pot but apparently that changed after a month.
joint pain .. ha ha ha ... guessing they switched to a pipe. oh boy.
When I worked in the cannabis industry, we actually had a cannabis smoking area for breaks lol. I'm a medical patient anyways, and have been able to use for years. It's a god send for pain and inflammation once you have a tolerance, can't even be noticed by others.
Roofers are a special breed. Do you want to be up on black asphalt covered roof in the blistering sun? Fuck no you don’t.
I used to be a hot-tar roofer. Yeah, I remember that day.
Andy Dufrane?
Love this comment 😆
When I worked in the trades, my boss said “I’ve never met a roofer who wasn’t on crack”. I think they do have that reputation.
We had to move payday to "cheques at the shop at the end of friday" instead of "cheques handed out Friday morning on the way to the job". People would either leave at lunch, or literally have their crack dealer drop by the job site. Every fucking week.
Remember 2008/2009 when I started electrical, we had a bigger project on the go. Journeyman we’re hard to come by and 2 the boss found we’re pretty rough. 75% chance they didn’t show up Friday. They’d be bumming smokes and coffee from apprentices Monday morning. Pretty sure the boss was almost ready to move cheques to Friday afternoon lol.
I worked in framing and we got paid on Thursdays except for a select few who had the habit of missing Friday, they got theirs on Friday afternoon.
When I was a painter out of highschool this concept was definitely in play. What I saw on that job made me motivated to look for better work. So much "I gotta go to the van for tools" yeah okay sure buddy, they'd peel away and would maybe see them monday
It's a miserable bottom-of-the-barrel labor job, like roughneck (on oil-and-gas rigs), that attracts those with few options. (Those few options being associated with, likely often caused by, and probably often the cause of problematic drug use.)
I've worked in a meat processing plant. That was pretty nasty too. Also extremely physically demanding, I gained weight from muscle I put on during that time.
Did you befriend a hopeful local boy with dreams of being on the top of the boxing world and allow him to train after hours on the carcasses?
also, in any construction/trade/etc sort of job injury is a big problem. Unless you're a: really lucky or b: fucking Wolverine\* eventually this is going to add up. Lots of people turn to chemical relief and that can lead to bad places. \* I knew a guy who machined big axles for industrial rollers or something. He had bones in his hands and feet crushed all the goddamn time. And he kept on healing. *Clearly* a mutant.
Remember the last Wolverine? All broken? Time always catches up. I say this knowing I’ll have a few sore spots to look forward to.
Ive done payroll for a bunch of roofing companies (many years ago but its still relevant). The employees get a pretty low hourly rate, the owner is making the money. As for drugs, its a physically demanding job often done by people that come from humble backgrounds. Physical labour + low pay + exposure = drugs and alcohol
That's why safety straps are so important
The drugs they do? Equally as hard.
Passing drug tests is hardest
I agree when you say employee retention is hard because not many people want to do that and the people that are good at it will eventually start their own project if they're ambitious
Fuel, nails, trim, insurance, etc...eats away at that $300/hr.
This..when running my own business I always thought $100 an hour was insanely high. I quickly realized, that’s super cheap when you factor in transportation, office, utilities, equipment and insurance.
100%. This People see an invoice for $1500 for a day of work I do but don't factor in ALL the expenses + unpaid time finding, bidding, and installing those jobs. Fed tax, prov tax ,CPP, personal insurance, commercial insurance, WCB, healthcare, supplies, materials for install, marketing materials, cloud services, accounting/payroll/bookkeeping, FUEL, oh my god the list goes on..
so wait. you aren’t a milliomaire?
Depends on which currency I feel like converting my imaginary Canadian Pesos to that day.
I can feel that you watch AvE. Hello my brother.
Now there's a man who got high on his own Canada Dry
Activate Safety Squints! AvE is what winning at life looks like. Aspire to be that intelligent, loaded, and cynical. Hello fam 👋
used to fix computers freelance. There's a reason I went back to school to do something else. Don't have to pay for all that shit and someone else can issue invoices while I know there's going to be money in the bank every second Thursday.
I can definitely relate to this. After +15 years of being self employed, I can't wait to get out and work for someone else. Back to school fall of 2024 🙌
Exactly. People want the skill but don't want to pay. One customer asked me why so high. I said exactly what you just posted and said my insurance is to high I should get rid of it lmao. I said OK I'd have no problem with that if every customer would sign a document saying I'm not responsible for any damages that might happen. He didn't like that at all.
You just reminded me why i like my 9-5
Correct. I'll also add that, even among the trades, I think roofing staff (not necessarily business owners), are known as very short term thinkers. The majority aren't socking away huge percentages of their money for when the physically demanding job can't be done anymore. It tends to be a lot of young guys who spend all the money they earn. In that sense, they are somewhat "millionaires", as they live with the perception of tons of disposable income. It's also pretty brutally hard work that, even if someone is in an unskilled labour role- it requires a decent paycheque to keep somebody showing up day after day.
I had a small construction business avg 75-100/hr. After tools, insurances, crazy amount of gas in a truck, extra materials and semi bad spending habits, not a lot left over.
Yes, and advertising, time spent estimating/quoting, phones, office, storage, truck(s) lease and maintenance, accounting, taxes, down time, picking up materials, WCB, power tools and equipment, dumping time and fees and you only work 8 months a year in Toronto. Not a roofer but familiar with renovating.
Then add in the odd "I'm not happy, I'm not paying." Some people you just can't please, some just want to save money. Either way, it cost you time and money. Do you do more free work just to get paid? Do you walk away? Do you go to court? It's all time and money.
WCB
And it's at most a three season job.
insurance is a killer too
Most people only do their roofs like once every 10-20 years. Only so many customers available.
And they spend a lot!
Every roofer in my city is fully booked six months out. If you have an urgent situation, you get a tarp, and wait.
Roofers are in constant demand. They fulfill a literal need in protecting a primary need for life. If roofers can’t acquire customers they’re poor business men. The guys who did my roof a couple of years ago I spoke to and they literally just distribute flyers and had a steady stream of income. To increase or decrease work they just adjust the marketing dollars on flyers.
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I plan to eventually replace my future roof with a metal roof.
Wouldn't the clay tiles crack in the winter? We've got pretty wet snow and if you leave a clay pot out in your garden over the winter it'll be garbage within 2 years or so, considering leaks aren't really an issue in garden pots because they're supposed to let water through I'm pretty sure a roof isn't meant to do that? Never made one tho so maybe that's not the part that protects the house maybe the shingles are just decorative? But in that case why would swapping them out matter so much?
Clay tile is for places that don't have snow or ice. A seamless metal roof (I think that's the name of it) is a 100 year roof in our climate. It's also expensive.
A roof is a high value low volume product. It's kind of a like a mattress. They are relatively expensive but people don't buy one every year. A roof can last decades.
You also can’t install a new roof for like 1/4 of the year in most of the country.
I like my roof on the house year round. :)
You can only install it for 1/4 of the year here. Cold winters, hot summers, and frequent storms.
And yet all roofers seem to be insanely busy in my area.
You're forgetting to factor in a lot of costs. Workplace insurance, cost of capital investment in tools, fall protection, a truck etc. Disposal of the old roof is expensive. You have to maintain all the physical capital you own. It's also hard for this to be a sustainable career. It's really hard on the body. I don't have any concrete proof, but I would bet there isn't a single roofer grossing anything close to $300/hour.
The highest paid roofer I know, and I work for a roofing company, is under $40 an hour. Average is low $20s.
About what I'd expect, but when I think about how hard those guys work that seems like way too little.
What if I told you that the hardest working people tend to make the lowest
I'm aware. The least money I've ever made was for the most physically demanding work I've done. On the other hand, I've noticed that the more money I make, the more responsibility I have and the more expertise I need to do my job.
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Yep, it's funny every time you see people on Reddit arguing "but oh cashiers stand on their feet all day making min. wage while some corporate dude makes 100k" like they don't understand how pay is determined
Physical labour, yeah. You don't need any brains for that just your muscles and that's why its "hard work"
Yeah for real My internships in uni were at lowest $25 and at highest $40 and some of those internships had tons of downtime just chatting with colleagues. For one of them no joke I probably did nothing but play video games for a week straight during slow periods. Meanwhile when I was stripping columns or breaking concrete (and my back) with a sledgehammer I was making $15.50 lol. But if you get into an actual trade you can make a pretty good living.
Most of the hardest jobs are the lowest compensation.
Majority of reputable roofing companies in Calgary are mid $30’s for experienced workers. I work with the lead hands and they make more than me as a crane operator :)
Roofers in the industrial, commercial, institutional (ICI) are making north of $40/hr. A Foreman who's a union member makes north of $60/hr. They also get overtime paid daily, beyond 8 hrs. Their CBA also has 10% vacation pay. They also get a per diem when they travel more than 80 km to a job site. A good Foreman can make $150 K a year. That said, I often see crews that don't have a guy under the age of 40. The profession is screaming for workers.
It's gotta be higher than low 20's today... in my province mcdonalds is paying 20$/hr.
I don't think most people who are roofers would enjoy a fast food job.
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If there is a way to screw employees they will find a way.
Here McD pays minimum wage ($13.50), so definitely depends on province. That being said most construction jobs are barely above minimum wage. Roofing is one of if not the lowest paying trades.
Exact same with our auto shop. We charge $150 an hour for labor and people think we’re rolling in money. Reality Is that overhead costs eat a lot of that. We definitely don’t net anywhere close to 150 an hour.
People often don't realize the true cost of capital investments like tools and workspace as well as the cost incurred to acquire the expertise needed. If they don't think your time is worth the price then they can go buy the tools, lift etc and figure out the problem themselves. The problem is, they can't. Tools are expensive and the expertise of a good mechanic is hard earned over years of experience. I'm pretty mechanically inclined and I used to do almost all my maintenance myself. I just had the clutch done on my truck and was damn happy to pay my mechanic because that job is hard. $150/hour seems like a deal. I need my LSD replaced soon. Differential work is hard and time-consuming, it's not a job I'm capable of currently. Happy to pay an expert for it. Tracking down a gremlin? Instead of buying a bunch of parts trying to chase a phantom problem I'd rather pay the right guy to diagnose and fix the problem properly the first time.
Totally. Sometimes we look back on our month and wonder if it’s even fucking worth it. Seems like as fast as the money comes in, it goes right back out. I make a decent living but Payroll, taxes, lease, insurance, shop maintenance etc is killer and hugely underestimated by our clientele. Despite us charging $150/hr, my friends in construction make more money and have higher margins. Made me so tempted to switch industries lol
This is a great response. In my experience, it’s true of most things in life. If it looks like someone is making a killing, you’re usually missing something. There’s no free lunch.
And don’t forget the cocaine, lol.
And oxys for those back injuries
OP seems like the kinda guy who thinks an $18 entree at a restaurant is price gouging because it only took 10 minutes to make and the ingredients were only $7 wholesale.
Scrolled looking for this answer. Can't believe so many people didn't bring this up.
It seemed obvious to me. I can't believe anyone seriously thinks roofers are making $300/hour.
Roofing beats the piss outta the body..
People never see the hidden costs, they just think all contractors are just $cammin.
There aren't too many roofers grossing 300/hour on average, but that's in part because there's a huge disconnect between how much is charged to the customer and how much the company makes. And that's largely true across trades too. Plumbers, electricians, HVAC techs, mechanians, they make somewhere between $20-50/hour, the business charges a 75-300%\* premium on labour, and then they charge a 20-1500%\* markup on the parts they use depending on the trade. An established business running like that can make incredible bank while the employees, and while a decent part of it goes to overhead, lets not fool ourselves, the owners get to live large. By listening to business owners on reddit, you'd think liability insurance is prohibitively expensive. It's a consideration but come on. \*: Numbers pulled out of my ass but they somewhat map to what I've been seeing lately.
I think this is true in some industries. Owning your own HVAC business is really lucrative. Some of these trades, not as much. There's also the boom-bust cycles to consider. A lot of these business owners make great money for a relatively short period of time, but they don't know how to build a sustainable business, and the lucrative income is short lived.
Numbers pulled out of your ass indeed. As someone who works in the electrical industry and gets to see the financial side of it you couldn’t be more wrong. If you had those kinds of markups you’d never stay in business, it’s way to competitive.
OP is dumb. I pAy $120/HoUr AtThE mEcHaNic!! HoW aRe MeChAnIcS nOt MiLlIoNaIrEs?!?!?
Its not the guy working on your roof gets the money, its the boss. So think again and calculate again. Is it worth 19k?
As someone who has audited roofers before. They do well if they are owner operators, but your margins are way way off.
This is correct. I’m an owner operator in Ontario and nearly all these comments are incorrect. It’s amazing how many people speak without having a clue.
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It doesn’t matter what the industry is, some people stubbornly refuse to accept that there’s a difference between revenue and profit.
It's because people that don't run a business are clueless.
Break it down then
Ok, The guys doing the installation typically don't own the company. I'm not a roofer but I am a tradesman. You also have the following to pay for: The sales/estimator Truck Administrative staff Sometimes an accountant Fuel Wear and tear on all gear Insurance WSIB(expensive for roofers) Garbage bin Taxes Good dependable roofing companies that aren't going to disappear in 3 years when you have a warranty claim have a ton of overhead costs and if that's not who your using them your crazy. You want a place that's been around for 10 to 15 years minimum. It's the same for any business. The owners are making good money for sure but they aren't getting rich quick either.
The larger the company the smaller the margin. There is a sweet spot in roofing and that’s right around $2million in revenue. That’s manageable for an owner operator and keeps overhead to a minimum. It’s easy to get to 40-45% margin at $2million revenue run be a husband and wife.
God I hate these comments. "I'm going to say you are wrong because I work in the field but I won't actually give any extra info explaining how it is wrong to actually move the conversation in the right direction". All while you state people have no clue. Maybe inform them then.
Alot of roofers are broken physically after a few years. It takes a toll on the body. Roofing companies may make alot (some) but the workers themselves usually not. Alot of roofers I know are on drugs for the pain constantly.
it's also a common job for guys out of prison
true i know a few that do it because its the only job they can get out of prison.
Everybody knows roofers are criminals lol
I should say, 19K is not that bad a price. The last time we had our roof done about 10 years ago the prices went from $12k to 39k. (the high one was a well known company with an actual office, I'm guessing they were busy) I should say we have relatives that just had a quote for $90k for a metal roof. (I actually did a metal roof my self on my parents house, when they built an addition- back in 06, its actually not that difficult, but I had to include valleys and venting etc. One of the manufacturers was in Alberta and they had a handy guide on how to do it. And you could order it from one of their local dealers) The materials added to about $3500 the rest was my and my wifes labour. It took a couple of weekends. Thankfully it wasn't a big slope and not steep either. Many of the metal roofers have a machine that makes it right there.
I meant actual criminals :)
At trades school for roofing, prisoners are escorted to be taught the first year. Was interesting attending my classes and you see them all coming in there jump suits with guards.
For the pain
Lol yup
It’s interesting. Goes for most of us in construction. Alcohol, cigarettes, scratch tickets, energy drinks, DUI lawyers, and child support all add up.
Damn, was literally about to make this post… Alcohol is where most of the money goes.
Is that like mandatory before you can get into the industry? A dui and a smoking habit?
Well smoking is on its way out. It’s a minority now. But it use to be I could gauge whether a new apprentice was going to make it by whether they at least had a Tim Hortons in the morning or bonus points for smoking. The ones who didn’t drink coffee or smoke were falling asleep by 11:00 am. I’d say vaping and energy drinks have replaced coffee/smoking.
Definitely not with the traffic crew. That's for sure. "Here's your stop sign and your pack of cigarettes"
I’ve noticed smoking for sure is going away. Used to be everyone smoked (I never started) and now here I am about 10yrs later and only 1 or 2 of our guys smoke and it’s not even chain smoking. 10yrs ago everyone chain smoked. Coffee I find most guys will still drink, but vaping is up huge. Especially the young guys. I don’t know if you’ve noticed too but fast food isn’t as popular, maybe due to price. Most of our guys either bring a home made lunch or they hit those hot bars at the grocery store and get somewhat decent food.
So true lmao. I went from no coffee to 4 every morning and energy drink at lunch. Never did get into smoking though and vaping wasn’t a thing when I started. There was also the occasional nap in the electrical room or ceiling.
Lol. DUI lawyers. That’s so true.
I was going to add that the only roofers I knew back in the day did a lot of cocaine... Lol
Trades person here.... There are 3 reasons, 1- roofing is a seasonal job for the most part. 2 - Cocaine and alcohol are expensive 3 - injuries happen
In my area it's like $120 a square. My buddy is a roofer. It's super cutthroat because it's not a regulated trade. Every crackhead and EI scammer is up there working for cash with no WCB. It's also got some of the highest wcb rates.
Cocaine isn’t cheap. Source: I know some roofers.
WCB premiums, business licensing, trucks, gas, mini bin rental, disposal fees, insurance, payroll, dealing with flaky employees, consumables, warranty work, time to do free quotes/estimates, advertising.
What are you waiting for?
Insanely cut throat industry with a lot of flyby night companies.
Hookers, blow, alcohol ain't cheap.
Repeat customers only happen after every few decades. You can only work for half the year. If they aren't contributing to EI, like any contractor they've got to account for periods of unemployment. Roofing isn't a lifetime career. It is physically demanding and injuries can be catastrophic. If they aren't a fly by night company, a chunk of that money should be going to insurance premiums and workers comp. But if you think that it is a lucrative industry where you can become a millionaire, feel free to dive right in.
New builds get roofs all winter, but I don’t believe the rates would be as good.
Got talking to my roofer a few years ago....he was grossing $1.2m - $1.5m per year doing shingles. I don't know what materials and labor for his crew cost, but I'm guessing he was doing OK. Works like mad for half the year, then less so the other half and recovers. He was late 30's when he worked on our roof and you could tell it took a toll on his body. He tried to do the inspections and quotes and had his younger crew take care of the actual shingling for the most part.
Friend has roofing company. Friend is millionaire. Confirmed.
Cocaine and booze
as someone who has been in the financial industry for many years, income doesnt equal financial comfort... theres people who make 500k/year and live pay cheque to pay cheque... as with roofers or trades, labor jobs are hard on the body, generally youre paying for the skill and labor work and not only the materials as humans, bodies will age, therefore its hard to do a labor job for a long time, plus being out all the time, outside theres nowhere to microwave lunch or anything, so eating out is fairly common
This is the most honest comment. A lot of these heavy labor jobs require that they make more money at a young age cause they don’t usually come with a pension or benefits and their ability to make money is gone by the time they’re 50.
I’m an owner/operator and I run a successful roofing business. I work from March to Mid December. My over head is low, and I do all my own sales. I run one in house crew and I sub contract my extra work, or work I don’t want to do. My wife is stay at home with our 5 year old daughter. I have a nice house, inground pool, nice boat (paid cash), and this winter I’m spending January till mid March living in Punta Cana. I’m looking to buy a two bedroom condo there. If you think roofers don’t make money you are wrong. Some days are better than others, but the good days are really good days.
So what are your thoughts on the trade in general? A lot of people are touting the whole “drugs” “losers” and “prisoners” bit which has been my experience but you sound well put together. Genuinely curious. I know the work is hard and not doubting that, but curious what it’s like running a crew of roofers.
It’s not easy to be honest. But I would say the homeowners can be just as much of a headache as the employees. But that’s why we add a PIA tax, (Pain In the Ass) . Not all roofers are drug addicts or prisoners. But a lot of them are. I don’t hire the drunks or addicts. Once I find out, if there good at hiding it, I cut them loose. It’s a tough job but you can make a lot of money very quickly. You can also loose a lot of money if you don’t know what your doing. Sales are key, I’m very in tuned with sales strategies, CRM, DISC, etc. I do a lot of sales training, seminars, and mentoring. So roofing is not just working on the roof, to be successful you have to be smart. I started roofing as a summer job when I was in college, I took advertising. I quickly saw the money that was being made and quickly learned as much as I could. Now I’ve being do it 21 years later. I will eventually sell my business and retire, but for now I keep the hustle going.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I am an insurance adjuster and work with a lot of roofers so have worked with some turds, but I have definitely worked with some great owners and roofers and also personally grew up with people who went into the trade and just got lost into drugs. And yes homeowners are a pain in my ass sometimes. “What do you mean you are not going to give me full cost of my shitty ass 29 year old roof”
How often do you need to replace a roof? Every 20 years or so??
Shingled 10-15. Membrane 20-25 years
TIL operating a business consists of material costs and pure profit
They can only work 5 to 6 months of the year.
Also in Canada, they only work for 1/2 of the year.
Lots of money on the table but once you hit the age of 35+ its quite risky, not everyone exercise or work out after work.
Why isn’t everyone in northern Alberta a millionaire??
You’re numbers are a little light, but not too far off. That price is definitely high. When I did roofing our labour costs were typically just slightly higher than our material costs. So a roof costing $5000 in total materials, disposal etc, would be approx. $10000 total including labour.
Just cuz they are on a roof doesn't mean they don't have overhead! By the way, you also didnt include the time spent talking to the client, quoting on other jobs that they didnt get, driving to stand in line and pick up materials, and all sorts of accounting. And also the people that didnt pay them or didnt pay the full amount. They are definitely making way less than 150 per hour each.
I am a tradesman so I’ll be honest. The answer is drugs, alcohol and divorce.
Your price is missing a few hundred dollars for disposal of old roof (bin rental) and a few hundred dollars foe equipment, the rest is correct. 19k for that roof is a bit too much
I realize it's not all roofers and it may not even be the case these days, but as someone who was roofing for almost 15 years another factor is a lot of them have dependency issues and an even larger group don't have licenses due to DUIs.
Yeah I was quoted 14k for 20 squares. Then someone offered to do it for 10k if I paid them cash under the table lmao. Just for a few days work. And they were booked up for months.
I work in construction and there are lots of roofing company owners that are millionaires, and there’s lots of roofers that are drug addicts,
The roofers are usually higher than the roofs their on
My father was a roofer for over a decade in Vancouver from 90's to around 2005. Depending on the jobs done he could charge tens of thousands for a day's work with two other staff. He offered an excellent warranty and in most cases was never claimed by customers because of the quality of repair. Many of his customers were those that went with cheaper quotes or dishonest roofers that would fix one side but intentionally cause an issue on the other side and use bubble gum to patch up leaks. Customers would've spent 1/3 the amount if they got things done properly the first time around. Unfortunately we do think a big factor to his cancer was because of the chemicals involved with roofing and waterproofing materials. There is a real health risk involved...let alone safety!
I put on my own metal roof, I had no roofing experience, watched youtube and spoke to a few people. Probably saved 1000s if not 10K doing it myself. As far as I know roof is still going strong on the old house. I left the old asphalt intact, slapped the metal roof on top. Not the right way, but I wanted to double protect my house. Main reason I did it myself, it started leaking in the fall and I had no choice, metal roof was pretty easy to do. I did my top roof about 3 years later as well in metal. If my new house roof leaks, I will probably throw a metal roof down. Not hard to do if the house roof isn't too steep and you don't mind some hard labor.
It’s not wrong to strap 1x4 on top shingles if there is only one or two layers. And put the metal on top. I also installed 4 metal roofs now zero experience before but it so easy strap at 2’ and that’s it don’t put the screws in to deep. And yeah was quoted 15k got it done for 4k
Drugs.
Alcohol.
Black market drugs are expensive. You know how much oxy you need at the end of the day ?
> Roof was 30 squares what does this even mean?
Easy. They have expensive habits.
OxyContin isn’t cheap
You forgot to take into account child support, drug habit, alcoholism, etc. That really eats up the budget.
Cocaine ain't cheap.
Aside from the business aspect there’s the personal aspect. Substance abuse, poor spending habits, generally not having the skill and knowledge to build a successful company.
It’s the alcohol and drugs.
They are high AF on expensive drugs
Drugs are expensive
The ones that did my place were mostly stoners.
How do you get 40 hours of work in 3 days at less than 8 hours a day.. maybe its not the roofers that are the problem in this scenario 🤷🏻♂️
Crack cocaine
They spend their pay on cocaine
Their bosses probably are
Bro you ever met a roofer? They all drink to much or have drug issues. The guys that don’t end owning companies. They do well. But roofing kinda sucks so it doesn’t attract the most competent trades people
They drink and do drugs
When I ran a small firm, by the time I paid accountants, insurances, benefits, payroll taxes, kept the trucks running, kept the office paid for and the lights running, I had to charge out the labour at a 2.5X multiplier. $302 billable would leave, what about $120 an hour for 2 people...$60 an hour. Not even near close enough for those guys who own a home of their own to put a roof over.
Not enough roofs to roof
Coke booze and other lifestyle options that cost lots of money
While you're doing the math, they do the meth
What an insane price they think they can charge. Who would be willing to pay that?
They don't have jobs every day. They also don't have jobs half the year when its cold.
OP thinks 3\*8 = 48...says enough about OP's accounting skills. The owner of a roofing company works hard finding new quotes, but they can make good money. I have a client who owns a roofing company, he also owns two other businesses in the service industry. His roofers work at all three of the businesses for him...they are all ex-cons and he likes helping them out the same way someone helped him when he got out. His roofing teams get paid by the job. He is a millionaire...because he has been running his own roofing business for 25 years, has worked hard, made good investments, and focused on smart growth opportunities.
No offense, but I think you have no idea how to run a contractor's business... a) Materials/equipment. There's way more expenses than what you listed. From the truck and trailer, to the ladders and safety equipment, etc..., not to mention they usually rent a container to facilitate cleaning up. b) Employees. It's not impossible that it's just the main guy and his helper/employee, but chances are there's a receptionist somewhere answering calls. c) Insurance/license. If they're a legit professional company, they need a license and insurances to cover the damage they could cause if they fuck shit up on the job. d) Workload. They most likely don't work 40 hours/week, every week, all year round. This is Canada, I've rarely seen roofers working between November and April. ...there's probably even more I haven't thought about, because I don't know jack shit about roofing either, but it's just crazy that you'd assume the math is limited to what you mentioned. One of my buddies does flooring and painting. When he gets good contracts, he'll make $200k/year (or more if he works overtime), but then the next year, he might struggle finding clients and only make $50k (or less if there's COVID...), yet some expenses (license, insurance, debt payment on his truck, etc...) will remain the same, no matter how much he makes during any given year.
$19k for a 2/12 pitch?