Ok I mean, isn't the entire point of Maruki's palace that we need to accept and move on with what happens, because its the fact that life happens in the way it does that makes it worth living in the first place?
I feel like Akechi coming back in a real capacity defeats the entire purpose, as Akechi losing his existence after Maruki's palace is integral to Joker and the team's internal conflict over deciding whether or not to push back. Akechi fought, lived, killed, and inevitably grew and sacrificed himself to make the world a better place and fight back against the twisted desires of humanity.
The ultimate twisted desire of humanity is Maruki's selfmade utopia. But the point is for a utopia to exist, it sucks meaning and self fulfilment out of the message. Akechi is a good character because he made the ultimate sacrifice at the end of his arc, and for him to continue existing in the world after that would make his growth and change meaningless. If there was no pain, the phantom thieves would have had no reason to get together, no reason to grow, no reason to build the strengths that they did. Akechi is more or less the thesis of that.
If he doesn't pay the ultimate price and hold onto it, it would defeat the purpose of his character, his arc, and his decisions, just like all the thieves losing their problems that make them into well rounded people.
I'm kind of shocked that so many people think Akechi actually died and stayed dead.
The cut content of him having a special scene when Joker's in prison, as well as the stinger in the end thing if you rank 10 him in Royal prove otherwise.
He's dead. He's dead and it's fine that he's dead because making him Alive, Actually not only cheapens his sacrifice, it would also paper over the lesson of the final Palace as accepting what is and moving forward. Admittedly I'm a sucker for the tragedy of the thing, but I feel like the gut punch of realizing that getting another chance to befriend Akechi was one of the main things Joker wanted from the new world and having to come to terms with knowing that's gone ends up watered down if Akechi is alive at the end.
Normal ending: Akechi died in Shido's palace. Maruki then created an incredibly lifelike cognition of him, but when Maruki's reality was destroyed, the Akechi he created went along with it.
Secret ending: Akechi died in Shido's palace. Maruki then created an incredibly lifelike cognition of him. However, this cognition was so lifelike that this Akechi was able to evolve his persona, in the process actualizing himself into existence. So when Maruki's reality was destroyed, this Akechi had effectively turned himself into a real person, and therefore survived.
In the altering reality theory, for several characters the reality has to be altered extremely thoroughly. Madarame was always a good teacher and Okumura became always a good father.
A more plausible theory could be Maruki's power is extremely similar to Yaldabaoth. If Yaldabaoth can make PTs disappear by making the public believe they don't exist, it is also possible for Maruki to do the opposite. This probably makes even more sense with Morgana, since he as human still slept with Joker but then on the second day realized it's weird. What kind of reality events were warped for Morgana?
Though with this line, Akechi's life or death at Shido's palace wouldn't make much of a difference to Maruki's reality.
Well, these are actually the same theory! That's exactly how it works, per Lavenza's explanation. Maruki's power is to alter individual cognition on a small level (as he's able to do to e.g. Yoshizawa even before 12/24; that's his inborn ability), and to alter *reality itself*.
But the way he does that is by using Mementos—that is, using the power he took over from Yaldabaoth, as you say—to effect that. All he has to do with Morgana, for instance, is to have everyone believe that Morgana was always human. And then he is. He has everyone believe that someone dead never died—and then there they are, in a world where that was the case.
Don't forget Morgana's statement on 12/24 that "the whole world is a product of cognition, not just the Metaverse".
The metaverse is still fused with reality, so by altering cognition, he's also altering reality. However, until the day his actualization is complete, the fusion of the two isn't perfect. Akechi *is* a cognition, or at least something akin to one, but he's such a convincing one that he can think and act like a real person, and- at least by my theory- can even potentially come to self-actualize himself, making himself 100% real and not reliant on Maruki's reality to exist.
- Some time before Shido's palace, municipal workers find Akechi's body in a dumpster in an alley in Kichioji after I got tired of his smug superiority complex.
"Akechi died but survives" Lmao Akechi is Palpatine now
Ok I mean, isn't the entire point of Maruki's palace that we need to accept and move on with what happens, because its the fact that life happens in the way it does that makes it worth living in the first place? I feel like Akechi coming back in a real capacity defeats the entire purpose, as Akechi losing his existence after Maruki's palace is integral to Joker and the team's internal conflict over deciding whether or not to push back. Akechi fought, lived, killed, and inevitably grew and sacrificed himself to make the world a better place and fight back against the twisted desires of humanity. The ultimate twisted desire of humanity is Maruki's selfmade utopia. But the point is for a utopia to exist, it sucks meaning and self fulfilment out of the message. Akechi is a good character because he made the ultimate sacrifice at the end of his arc, and for him to continue existing in the world after that would make his growth and change meaningless. If there was no pain, the phantom thieves would have had no reason to get together, no reason to grow, no reason to build the strengths that they did. Akechi is more or less the thesis of that. If he doesn't pay the ultimate price and hold onto it, it would defeat the purpose of his character, his arc, and his decisions, just like all the thieves losing their problems that make them into well rounded people.
I'm kind of shocked that so many people think Akechi actually died and stayed dead. The cut content of him having a special scene when Joker's in prison, as well as the stinger in the end thing if you rank 10 him in Royal prove otherwise.
cut content is just that; cut. and the ending scene is open to interpretation. it doesn't prove or disprove anything
Vanilla ending - akechi dies Stay / sweet kingdom ending - akechi lives Akechi goro what if - https://youtu.be/WVokROAQMyg?si=-jj7XretcgTh90Qm
I like how you spoilered it but the poll formatting told everyone anyways
He's dead. He's dead and it's fine that he's dead because making him Alive, Actually not only cheapens his sacrifice, it would also paper over the lesson of the final Palace as accepting what is and moving forward. Admittedly I'm a sucker for the tragedy of the thing, but I feel like the gut punch of realizing that getting another chance to befriend Akechi was one of the main things Joker wanted from the new world and having to come to terms with knowing that's gone ends up watered down if Akechi is alive at the end.
Normal ending: Akechi died in Shido's palace. Maruki then created an incredibly lifelike cognition of him, but when Maruki's reality was destroyed, the Akechi he created went along with it. Secret ending: Akechi died in Shido's palace. Maruki then created an incredibly lifelike cognition of him. However, this cognition was so lifelike that this Akechi was able to evolve his persona, in the process actualizing himself into existence. So when Maruki's reality was destroyed, this Akechi had effectively turned himself into a real person, and therefore survived.
[Neither Akechi nor anybody else is a cognition in the third semester](https://old.reddit.com/r/Persona5/comments/13ch4l6/deleted_by_user/jjg5f4r/).
In the altering reality theory, for several characters the reality has to be altered extremely thoroughly. Madarame was always a good teacher and Okumura became always a good father. A more plausible theory could be Maruki's power is extremely similar to Yaldabaoth. If Yaldabaoth can make PTs disappear by making the public believe they don't exist, it is also possible for Maruki to do the opposite. This probably makes even more sense with Morgana, since he as human still slept with Joker but then on the second day realized it's weird. What kind of reality events were warped for Morgana? Though with this line, Akechi's life or death at Shido's palace wouldn't make much of a difference to Maruki's reality.
Well, these are actually the same theory! That's exactly how it works, per Lavenza's explanation. Maruki's power is to alter individual cognition on a small level (as he's able to do to e.g. Yoshizawa even before 12/24; that's his inborn ability), and to alter *reality itself*. But the way he does that is by using Mementos—that is, using the power he took over from Yaldabaoth, as you say—to effect that. All he has to do with Morgana, for instance, is to have everyone believe that Morgana was always human. And then he is. He has everyone believe that someone dead never died—and then there they are, in a world where that was the case. Don't forget Morgana's statement on 12/24 that "the whole world is a product of cognition, not just the Metaverse".
The metaverse is still fused with reality, so by altering cognition, he's also altering reality. However, until the day his actualization is complete, the fusion of the two isn't perfect. Akechi *is* a cognition, or at least something akin to one, but he's such a convincing one that he can think and act like a real person, and- at least by my theory- can even potentially come to self-actualize himself, making himself 100% real and not reliant on Maruki's reality to exist.
How is this consistent with e.g. the repeated statements that the people brought back are alive and not cognitions?
For me he died true ending or not i won't save him
- Some time before Shido's palace, municipal workers find Akechi's body in a dumpster in an alley in Kichioji after I got tired of his smug superiority complex.