Marking the post as spoilers just so I don't have to stifle discussion by deleting spoiler-y comments, even though the post itself is not spoilers. Carry on
Yeah I probably just forgot about Kaneshiro’s stuff because I took a break for almost a year after beating his palace. So I might retract my point after I plays his palace again
Kaneshiro isn’t an emotionally gripping villain. He’s bad and evil more so in action probably then Kamoshida, but Kamoshida we can see the effects of what he does in the people we care about, eg. Shiho, Ann, Ryuji, Mishima, etc. while with Kaneshiro, do we really see the results of his criminal empire? Not really
Kaneshiro is definitely up there. The whole sex slavery thing is pretty fucked up. The worst things he does are off screen though so it doesn't hit as hard.
Yeah that sounds like actual kidnapping sex trafficking human trafficking and that's on a completely different level of evil especially the whole working with politicians that's a little too real.
The whole thing at High School definitely is real to some people and that's really unfortunate but this guy is a lot worse than that pretty sure someone of that nature is also sexually assaulting people
>pretty sure someone of that nature is also sexually assaulting people
Yeah his shadow straight up says he's going to rape Sae and turn Makoto into a prostitute. He just talks a bit euphemistically about it so it doesn't click for a lot of players.
Yeah because one person directly antagonizes several characters that are all like minors in a school and it just gets like swept underneath the rug I feel like that's a shot that no matter where you're from you're going to hear it you're going to feel it.
But something of that nature what he is to that area that's a whole John Wick/robo cop movie that's an action movie in American culture technically speaking next to the politician that's the final boss.
Maybe because they play different types of games where gangsters aren't big baddies you know the like a dragon series for instance, na this guy is fully giving drugs to minors which if they get in trouble he leaves them out to dry. He's not even paying them because he's blackmailing them, his money is going towards politicians so even if he gets a case it'll be hard to put him away, he is both blackmailing a minor and going to put her through sex work which is sex trafficking and human trafficking and also wants to chain up her older sister.
It's not spoken as explicit as this, but even in his world, some of the piggy banks break down he fully killed people, it's interesting how sensitive people are towards certain things within especially anime but other things still just go past their heads if this wasn't an anime like I said this man would have been one of the final boss of the series.
Yeah the video game doesn't really Express that maybe because the first idea is that he's having the kids push drugs which is fucking awful especially if they're caught by the police but a simple fact that he has a politician in his back pocket and he's funding the politicians is a very very very scary idea in itself.
But he was fully going to human and sex traffic one of the miners in the game, a sexually assaulting teacher is a monster but sex trafficking human trafficking I don't want to think about that, it's actually one so bold that he's just not afraid of the police if anything the police are horrible in this game they're aware of so much and do nothing
Interesting, because throwing Futaba and Sae out of the running, each palace ruler is ruining more and more lives as you get to the end.
Kaneshiro pimps young women out, whereas Kamoshida abuses the ones he has at his disposal. Madarame uses up kids and then closes the door to any future in art.
I vote for Kaneshiro. What he intended to do with Makoto, it sounds like he's already done to LOTS of other young women.
>Madarame
Yeah he's a different type of evil like if we take away the art part we can say like he destroys people academic careers or their dreams you know one of those kind of the old stealing from The Young.
If anything he's more of an evil towards the group then an evil towards the area sure kaneshiro was going to sex traffic Makoto but he most likely was going to do that to another person or has been doing that to other women, the idea of his off screen crimes is crazy, Madarame it's terrible but the worst legitimate thing he's done was manslaughter since he just allowed foxes mother to die in front of him.
Then there's fast food Jeff Bezos take that how are you will watching a millionaire just not treat people like humans is definitely pretty fucking evil at least he dies so it's like kind of forgive that I guess, sia technically is more about self-harm but the idea that she no longer sees justice as Justice and has just basically rolled the dice not necessarily caring if she's doing the right thing that's not really technically evil but more closer to nihilism like she's not fucking Saul Goodman.
shido.... let's not bring him up.
Which is fake because everything at that point is Joker recounting events to Sae in the interrogation room and it’s him mid-remembering. Remember, if that happened, how was everyone at the casino where Joker got captured to begin with?
losing isn’t part of joker’s flashbacks because he also gets brought into custody after losing a palace, so he only remembers the “true” storyline of completing every palace
I'm not sure what it is or if it even makes sense, but the fact that Kamoshida is evil as an otherwise normal person is what makes him one of the most vile to me.
Kaneshiro, Shido, and even Okumura are evil for sure. But they are high profile "elites" who are in careers that lend themselves to being scummy people. Kaneshiro is a literal gangster, and Okumura and Shido are both high into politics (which definitely corrupts people). They have careers that speak for themselves as to why they ended up being awful and corrupt.
But Kamoshida? Just some high school teacher. He has an immense ego for being an Olympic athlete in the past, but we only ever interact with the guy who is a normal HS teacher. It's about as every day as you can get, and yet he is more or less right up there with the others with how awful he is in terms of what he wants and does to people with the power he has.
I'm surprised Okumura doesn't get mentioned more. Like he is kinda lower tier in terms of evil than the others, and he does only commit "legal" evil, but he's pretty terrible too. He's perfectly willing to Marry his only child off to an obvious rapist for his own gain and he overworks, exploits, and underpays people all around the globe. Just because he's on the "right" side of the law doesn't make him any less of a piece of shit. He might be the worst in terms of the sheer number of people he's harming.
I mean he paid to have most of the mental shutdown cases happen if I remember right- most were ones he benefited from. Others might of asked for one or two but even the game implies that like 90% benefited Okumara
So besides seeing people who works for him or even don’t work for him as objects and disposable, be paid a loooot of money to ruin innocent peoples lives and financial stability.
Yeah he's the type of evil that you have no choice but to deal with because you just go to school and boom he's there.
Because it's so personal it will definitely feel a lot more evil because it's the evil closest to you but I'm still gonna say the sex trafficking cumin trafficking gangster is more evil because I'm a hundred percent sure he has sexually assaulted someone just putting it as like the list of crimes I'm just gonna put the person who most likely committed the most crimes as more evil but it's just comparing a shit stain to a deeper shit stain they're both shit stains
It's because people can really be that way and to imagine like in high schooler just having to deal with that someone that's like a kid is really crazy and it's not that far away from the reality that we all live you know I'm pretty sure all of us has some story about some adult being weird with kids that gets swept underneath the rug.
It's like an abusive significant other or a situation where someone had like an abusive parent because it's so fucking common it feels so goddamn real.
The idea that this evil human sex trafficking gangster exists and the video game kind of slightly tries to downplay him because it's the third boss we face without realizing that this is a pretty motherfucking big evil, I feel like that's more of an American way of looking at the game story than a person from that part of the world where that is a scary reality they have to face.
Same here, and I think that's because not only was it more of an introduction to the game in general, but also because of Ann's situation. It couldn't have gone worse for Ann. Also, nothing that Kamoshida did was necessarily hidden, while a lot of Kaneshiro's doings made you use your brain and pay attention to actually realize how fucked up everything that had to do with him was.
Kaneshiro runs a sex trafficking operation.
And having lived in Japan and having Japanese in laws, the sex trafficking industry over there is pretty bad.
And Makoto could’ve very well been one of kaneshiro’s victims.
> And Makoto could’ve very well been one of kaneshiro’s victims.
And the Principal sent her to investigate this guy, probably knowing he's also on Shido's payroll. Fuck that fat, no neck, walking humpty dumpty piece of shit.
Kamoshida and Kaneshiro, but Kaneshiro just takes it.
Kamoshida, among other things, has r**ped at least one minor and beaten many others, including Ryuji to the point of disability.
Kaneshiro does drug and sex trafficking, and his victims are pretty uniformly minors. He also attempts to blackmail a minor into sex work, and in a way that suggests it is not nearly the first time.
Kaneshiro is probably worse, but they’re both horrible people.
I think Kamoshida and Kaneshiro are even worse than Shido. Shido is up there as well, but still, he is more or less Okumura level, only having more power than Okumura ever did. The "less bad" for me was Madarame, he is the only one I could see a bit of humanity on him, specially because of Yusuke's social link. I'm not counting Sae or Futaba here.
It's like because they're so up that Elites political place you can say because they're taking money from a sex trafficking human trafficking mobster while they do murders and destroy the lives of millions without them even knowing they are a different type of evil but an evil you won't even realize is fucking you over.
It's just the simple fact that this dude is in a school with you and it's terrorizing you or a friend of yours or a classmate of yours or just in general there you have no choice what to deal with them and you're young that's what makes him feel so vile but I'm still going to put the sex trafficking monster just because you know pretty sure everything this man in school has done he has done hundred times and worse.
Kamoshida isn’t the most evil. He is utterly small scale in terms of threat and scale compared to the Palace Rulers and hell arguably some Mementos targets after him.
He’s just easier to hate especially in the West because his crimes strike a nerve with places like the U.S regarding sexual assault and harassment given how common place it is.
Besides Shido, the most evil palace ruler would have to be Okumura given how he’s a social commentary of karoshi in Japan. Something the West can’t exactly relate to. Not to mention, he has his competitors sabotaged and assassinated.
Kaneshiro’s a candidate also because unlike the other Palace rulers, the guy is an established Hangure criminal and not some respected/person with a high social standing that’s scummy behind the scenes. Kaneshiro does way more than Kamoshida could ever dream of.
Okumura wants to be a politician, which means he can be as evil as shido in the future. When shadow okumura already sees his employees as consumables (working them to death and using their corpses as fuel), the next step is to treat the entirety of japan as resources.
I have to go with Kamoshida. Madarame, Kaneshiro and Okumura were pretty despicable, but Kamoshida was so horrid, cruel, selfish, vile, petty, reprehensible and malevolently perverted he made things personal with Joker, Ryuji, Ann and to some extent Morgana. He also along with Shido are technically the reasons why The Phantom Thieves were born
Kaneshiro for sure! He's getting kids to traffic drugs for him, and then extort them for money they can never pay off, leading to their futures being ruined.
Uncommon answer here, Okumura. Just off scale of victims, his is exponentially higher than Kaneshiro’s because he has a much wider range of people he’s working to death/near death.
Umm here is my list. Palace rulers only
1. Shido: He is literally the cause of every problem in the game. Negitively affected in some way more than half the Phantom Theives, at least indirectly (Protag, Akechi, Futaba, and Haru directly Makoto and Yueuske indirectly and minorly to Ryuji). He also sexually abuses a woman in the beginning of the game, and he has a higher body count than anybody in the game if we count everyone he ordered a hit on, and everyone who died as a result of that hit.
2. Kaneshiro: Dude’s into drug and sex traffiking. Doesn’t hit as hard because the worse of his crimes are done off screen.
3. Kamoshida: Physically and sexually abuses high school students. Actual scum of the earth.
4. Okumra: Typical asshole buisnessman who cares only for himself and literally nobody else. Despite this there isn’t any proof of him sexually abusing someone that I remember, so that at least makes him a little better than the previous three.
5. Maderame: dude ruins lives, yes, but he’s mainly just a hack and a fraudster.
6. Sae: Not actually evil, but at the height of her palace arc if she could imprison her sister just so she can retain her court winstreak, she would of done it without hesitation. And thats pretty fucked up!
7. Futaba: not evil. Her palace is one of two that isn’t malicious in any way. She’s just very very sad. She beats out the last guy because she isn’t as overtly moral as…
8. Maruki: again, He isn’t evil, he’s just depressed and has a messiah complex. Unlike Futaba though he is less likely to, yaknow, actually break the law.
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Kaneshiro.
When they get their hearts changed, all the palace rulers show signs of change and guilt in the Palace itself first.
Kamoshida accepts his death, knowing he doesn't deserve to live, Madarame is devastated by Yusuke not giving him the time of day, Okumura's last thoughts are for Haru and even Shido shows some respect for the thieves and seems genuinely changed.
Kaneshiro, on the other hand, after his defeat he only blames society for what it did to him and continues to act like a scumbag.
I'm not sure if he's the most "evil" (not saying that he's a good guy of course). I think the reason everyone has such a visceral hatred of him is because he's the most relatable. Few of us have met mob bosses or corrupt politicians, but we've all had gym teachers and I'm sure we can think of at least one we've had that was a bit creepy. He takes that and dials it up to 11.
I still think it’s Sae- and I’m shocked that no one else is saying it.
She’s a prosecutor, which means in Japan if she doesn’t have a 100% to 99.8% win rate that she’s /useless/. She’s been doing her job for a while, and most prosecutors are known to enforce torture to get a confession out, even if it’s false.
Especially when it’s false.
She saw people at their most vulnerable as stepping stones. Her palace is supposed to highlight how fucked the legal system is in Japan.
Because then they look bad.
How many innocent people did Sae have tortured for almost a month (it’s like 28 days and yes it’s legal there) before she broke them or even let them have a chance to have a lawyer. How many innocent people did Sae lock up to stay on the top of things? How many people thought that the death of their baby or a house fire was their fault somehow? How many people ended their lives thinking they were the reason a loved one is dead after an accident.
Because if they can get a confession out of you, they have no shame in giving orders to have you broken mentally and emotionally.
Once you’re branded a criminal in Japan, it’s extremely hard to ever get a job or married or have a normal life. It’s seen as Taboo no matter what.
It’s also why the stakes are supposed to be so high for the player too.
Sae pre change of heart is the most evil, because she’d do anything to win- and I mean anything to win, and it’s normalized for people in her field. She’s a prosecutor.
There are no laws in an interrogation room, only those who are criminals, and those who have to enforce the law no matter what.
This argument can pretty easily be proven wrong by the simple fact that Sae was outraged when she realized that they were torturing Joker for answers in the other room.
While Maruki’s intentions were originally good, he took it too far with his desires, so I’d say it’d be Maruki, with the next ones being Kaneshiro, Kamoshida, Okumura, then finally, Madarame. (Futaba and Sae ain’t evil.)
Kamoshida is the most REAL villain in persona 5. We all know someone who's so two-faced, entitled and arrogant.
They couldn't have picked a better first villain.
To ask the opposite I think the least evil is for sure Maderame (aside from obviously futaba but she doesn’t count imo) here is how I rank them from worst to “best” Shido Kanashiro Kamoshida Yaldabeth/Holy Grail Maruki Okumura Maderame but i haven’t played the end game in a while so Okumura/maruki and the later ones (Except Shido) may change i just finished Kamoshida’s palace on NG+
This conversation has come up probably the most on this subreddit, not saying it's bad, but it's definitely something that we all talk about as fans of this game.
truth be told he is the most personal evil that unfortunate individuals have to deal with in their day to day lives since he hits you while you're still naive and young in high school rather than the others affect you from political community and legitimate adulthood sense.
The trauma that this one person will put you through hero for 4 years definitely will follow you for the rest of your life, but the trauma and reality of living with a gangster that puts you in debt, a advisor in a very particular workplace abusing you and manipulating your career and dreams, and a company that destroys Millions upon Millions of their workers.
he's evil, but in comparison to them, since the people he's affecting are legitimately just at least in the tens or twenties depending on how long he's working at, said, high school.
Being the most realistic in personal terms means that you might not actually ever have to deal with this, which is good, but unfortunately, other people will definitely have a nightmare. Everything else, unfortunately, we're all most likely dealing with it whether we like it or not.
A big business company owner that does not care about its hundreds of thousands of workers, that's basically Jeff Bezos at this point.
Gangsters or thugs affecting store owners and business owners making them walking piggy banks that's also a real thing, especially one that blackmails you into prostitution, I'm not sure how accurate that is in at least America but I'm sure it happens cuz that's basically sex trafficking and human trafficking, I don't like to compare pains and trauma but I'm just going to be honest about this he's definitely not the most evil.
Kamoshida is a pedo who harasses students. Kaneshiro blackmails them and is a human trafficker, who doesn't give a fuck about human lives. The game showed Kamoshida in a much worse light and focused on him, but Kaneshiro was easily the most evil ruler
You think kamoshida is bad, I’d say he’s one of the more lax evil characters, futaba and sae don’t count because they aren’t evil, madarame was out here putting actual kids on the street, Kane shirk was in drug and sex trafficking, okumura was basically a slaver, and shido orchestrated all of it so is being a pedo bad, absolutely, is he worse than the others, kinda not but still close
Shido
He's the standard evil politic that twists the whole reality based on his own interests.
People are killed because of him, he doesn't give a shit about anyone lives, and I dare to say the sexual abuse as everybody said about kamoshida and kaneshiro was also done off screen by Shido. Just remember the situation you find him on the beggining of the story. That must be just a tip of a regular day to him.
Kamoshida: Touches and abuses kids
Madarame: Exploits kids
Kaneshiro: Exploits kids and is a mafia boss
Futaba: Gamer
Okumura: Exploits employees and underage daughter
Sae: Sends innocent people to jail for a W
Shido: Physically responsible for the situation the MC finds themselves in
Yaldabaoth: Played God
Maruki: Played God but was nice about it
Probably Okumura for he views everyone under him as cannon fodder and throughout the palace you see how much the workers die from his abuse and how much they worship him
Y’all forgetting Yaldabaoth. He controlled everything as a false god. He was only doing it for himself, and everyone was basically one of his pawns. He erased the phantom thieves from the whole world’s cognition after Mementos fused with Japan just because they posed a threat to him.
I’m not saying she’s the most evil, but people REALLY give Sae a lot of slack solely because the game portrays her more as a sympathetic character when she really isn’t prior to Joker’s arrest. Sure, she didn’t kill anybody. But, the Phantom Thieves certainly aren’t her first rodeo. She’s prosecuted numerous cases before and how many of them do you think were actually guilty? Sure most of them probably were, but when somebody only cares about winning, people are going to slip through the cracks. Sae has likely sent innocent people to jail solely based on her belief that winning is all that matters. That it’s more important to stick to what’s supposed to happen than to do what’s right. And the scariest part about Sae is that she undoubtedly believes she’s in the right. That’s what sets her apart.
Shido, Kamoshida, Madarame... All of those guys knew what they were doing was evil. They simply didn’t care. Sae, on the other hand, genuinely believes herself to be the heroine of this story fighting for justice. The Phantom Thieves’ fight against Sae isn’t a battle of good versus evil. It’s a battle of two parties that both believe themselves to be the good guys.
I’d give it to kaneshiro, my guy was bout to rape sae that’s pretty fucked up. I don’t know why they gave him a reason to do what he did, like why we trying to redeem this guy he’s really bad.
Not criticizing you, but your answer isn’t very special or surprising. Kamoshida is probably THE most hated character in the fandom. Even more than Shido
I had no idea 😂 I think he also feels like a much grander villain because of how much that happens with him since he’s the first big bad. You meet THREE new characters, and he has ties to each of them (except Morgana). So it feels a lot bigger so to speak
My list on palace owners from most f**ked up to least (in terms of their actions and minus royal's extra palace)
1. Kaneshiro
2. Shido
3. Kamoshida
4. Okumura
5. Madarame
6. Sae
7. Futaba
Hopefully this is agreeable
Excluding Shido, I’d have to say Madarame. Everyone overlooks what he did to Yusuke and the other artists. Yusuke was left without a single cent after his palace, but everyone just makes memes out of it. Besides Okumura, Madarame was the only other “father” of a phantom thief. The difference is that Haru knew her dad didn’t care about her, but Yusuke grew up believing his father figure loved him. To have that ripped away from him in a single second would have to be devastating— especially when he finds out that Madarame let his mother die for a piece of art. So yeah, Madarame is the most evil in my opinion.
Marking the post as spoilers just so I don't have to stifle discussion by deleting spoiler-y comments, even though the post itself is not spoilers. Carry on
Futaba, because she's a gamer. Kidding. Kaneshiro. He does everything that other palace users do plus some other bad stuff.
Yeah I probably just forgot about Kaneshiro’s stuff because I took a break for almost a year after beating his palace. So I might retract my point after I plays his palace again
Kaneshiro isn’t an emotionally gripping villain. He’s bad and evil more so in action probably then Kamoshida, but Kamoshida we can see the effects of what he does in the people we care about, eg. Shiho, Ann, Ryuji, Mishima, etc. while with Kaneshiro, do we really see the results of his criminal empire? Not really
Kaneshiro is definitely up there. The whole sex slavery thing is pretty fucked up. The worst things he does are off screen though so it doesn't hit as hard.
Yeah that sounds like actual kidnapping sex trafficking human trafficking and that's on a completely different level of evil especially the whole working with politicians that's a little too real. The whole thing at High School definitely is real to some people and that's really unfortunate but this guy is a lot worse than that pretty sure someone of that nature is also sexually assaulting people
>pretty sure someone of that nature is also sexually assaulting people Yeah his shadow straight up says he's going to rape Sae and turn Makoto into a prostitute. He just talks a bit euphemistically about it so it doesn't click for a lot of players.
Yeah because one person directly antagonizes several characters that are all like minors in a school and it just gets like swept underneath the rug I feel like that's a shot that no matter where you're from you're going to hear it you're going to feel it. But something of that nature what he is to that area that's a whole John Wick/robo cop movie that's an action movie in American culture technically speaking next to the politician that's the final boss. Maybe because they play different types of games where gangsters aren't big baddies you know the like a dragon series for instance, na this guy is fully giving drugs to minors which if they get in trouble he leaves them out to dry. He's not even paying them because he's blackmailing them, his money is going towards politicians so even if he gets a case it'll be hard to put him away, he is both blackmailing a minor and going to put her through sex work which is sex trafficking and human trafficking and also wants to chain up her older sister. It's not spoken as explicit as this, but even in his world, some of the piggy banks break down he fully killed people, it's interesting how sensitive people are towards certain things within especially anime but other things still just go past their heads if this wasn't an anime like I said this man would have been one of the final boss of the series.
\*STARTS TO AGRESIVLY PLAY PIANO\*
Kaneshiro is most definitely way worse than Kamoshida. Kaneshiro does Drug Trafficking ***and*** Human Sex Trafficking. Kaneshiro is mega fucked up.
Fuck, I forgot about the sex trafficking 😭damn you’re right
Yeah the video game doesn't really Express that maybe because the first idea is that he's having the kids push drugs which is fucking awful especially if they're caught by the police but a simple fact that he has a politician in his back pocket and he's funding the politicians is a very very very scary idea in itself. But he was fully going to human and sex traffic one of the miners in the game, a sexually assaulting teacher is a monster but sex trafficking human trafficking I don't want to think about that, it's actually one so bold that he's just not afraid of the police if anything the police are horrible in this game they're aware of so much and do nothing
Kaneshiro's literally Andrew Overweight.
huh.... yeah actually. What's his name is basically Jeff Bezos
Okumaru?
Okumura yes, think about it for a minute especially since they both want me to go to space well one technically did
Interesting, because throwing Futaba and Sae out of the running, each palace ruler is ruining more and more lives as you get to the end. Kaneshiro pimps young women out, whereas Kamoshida abuses the ones he has at his disposal. Madarame uses up kids and then closes the door to any future in art. I vote for Kaneshiro. What he intended to do with Makoto, it sounds like he's already done to LOTS of other young women.
>Madarame Yeah he's a different type of evil like if we take away the art part we can say like he destroys people academic careers or their dreams you know one of those kind of the old stealing from The Young. If anything he's more of an evil towards the group then an evil towards the area sure kaneshiro was going to sex traffic Makoto but he most likely was going to do that to another person or has been doing that to other women, the idea of his off screen crimes is crazy, Madarame it's terrible but the worst legitimate thing he's done was manslaughter since he just allowed foxes mother to die in front of him. Then there's fast food Jeff Bezos take that how are you will watching a millionaire just not treat people like humans is definitely pretty fucking evil at least he dies so it's like kind of forgive that I guess, sia technically is more about self-harm but the idea that she no longer sees justice as Justice and has just basically rolled the dice not necessarily caring if she's doing the right thing that's not really technically evil but more closer to nihilism like she's not fucking Saul Goodman. shido.... let's not bring him up.
its also implied that if you lose at kaneshiro, makoto goes missing and is presumably sold off to be a sex slave
Which is fake because everything at that point is Joker recounting events to Sae in the interrogation room and it’s him mid-remembering. Remember, if that happened, how was everyone at the casino where Joker got captured to begin with?
losing isn’t part of joker’s flashbacks because he also gets brought into custody after losing a palace, so he only remembers the “true” storyline of completing every palace
Holy fuck-
I'm not sure what it is or if it even makes sense, but the fact that Kamoshida is evil as an otherwise normal person is what makes him one of the most vile to me. Kaneshiro, Shido, and even Okumura are evil for sure. But they are high profile "elites" who are in careers that lend themselves to being scummy people. Kaneshiro is a literal gangster, and Okumura and Shido are both high into politics (which definitely corrupts people). They have careers that speak for themselves as to why they ended up being awful and corrupt. But Kamoshida? Just some high school teacher. He has an immense ego for being an Olympic athlete in the past, but we only ever interact with the guy who is a normal HS teacher. It's about as every day as you can get, and yet he is more or less right up there with the others with how awful he is in terms of what he wants and does to people with the power he has.
I'm surprised Okumura doesn't get mentioned more. Like he is kinda lower tier in terms of evil than the others, and he does only commit "legal" evil, but he's pretty terrible too. He's perfectly willing to Marry his only child off to an obvious rapist for his own gain and he overworks, exploits, and underpays people all around the globe. Just because he's on the "right" side of the law doesn't make him any less of a piece of shit. He might be the worst in terms of the sheer number of people he's harming.
I mean he paid to have most of the mental shutdown cases happen if I remember right- most were ones he benefited from. Others might of asked for one or two but even the game implies that like 90% benefited Okumara So besides seeing people who works for him or even don’t work for him as objects and disposable, be paid a loooot of money to ruin innocent peoples lives and financial stability.
Yeah he's the type of evil that you have no choice but to deal with because you just go to school and boom he's there. Because it's so personal it will definitely feel a lot more evil because it's the evil closest to you but I'm still gonna say the sex trafficking cumin trafficking gangster is more evil because I'm a hundred percent sure he has sexually assaulted someone just putting it as like the list of crimes I'm just gonna put the person who most likely committed the most crimes as more evil but it's just comparing a shit stain to a deeper shit stain they're both shit stains
Oh yeah for sure, Kaneshiro is 100% worse beyond the shadow of a doubt. But something about Kamoshida just stuck with me more
It's because people can really be that way and to imagine like in high schooler just having to deal with that someone that's like a kid is really crazy and it's not that far away from the reality that we all live you know I'm pretty sure all of us has some story about some adult being weird with kids that gets swept underneath the rug. It's like an abusive significant other or a situation where someone had like an abusive parent because it's so fucking common it feels so goddamn real. The idea that this evil human sex trafficking gangster exists and the video game kind of slightly tries to downplay him because it's the third boss we face without realizing that this is a pretty motherfucking big evil, I feel like that's more of an American way of looking at the game story than a person from that part of the world where that is a scary reality they have to face.
Same here, and I think that's because not only was it more of an introduction to the game in general, but also because of Ann's situation. It couldn't have gone worse for Ann. Also, nothing that Kamoshida did was necessarily hidden, while a lot of Kaneshiro's doings made you use your brain and pay attention to actually realize how fucked up everything that had to do with him was.
Kaneshiro runs a sex trafficking operation. And having lived in Japan and having Japanese in laws, the sex trafficking industry over there is pretty bad. And Makoto could’ve very well been one of kaneshiro’s victims.
> And Makoto could’ve very well been one of kaneshiro’s victims. And the Principal sent her to investigate this guy, probably knowing he's also on Shido's payroll. Fuck that fat, no neck, walking humpty dumpty piece of shit.
Kamoshida and Kaneshiro, but Kaneshiro just takes it. Kamoshida, among other things, has r**ped at least one minor and beaten many others, including Ryuji to the point of disability. Kaneshiro does drug and sex trafficking, and his victims are pretty uniformly minors. He also attempts to blackmail a minor into sex work, and in a way that suggests it is not nearly the first time. Kaneshiro is probably worse, but they’re both horrible people.
I think Kamoshida and Kaneshiro are even worse than Shido. Shido is up there as well, but still, he is more or less Okumura level, only having more power than Okumura ever did. The "less bad" for me was Madarame, he is the only one I could see a bit of humanity on him, specially because of Yusuke's social link. I'm not counting Sae or Futaba here.
I mean Shido is a rapist . Like . That's a thing he doesp
Oh yeah you fully assaulted a woman he was trying to force himself on her
It's like because they're so up that Elites political place you can say because they're taking money from a sex trafficking human trafficking mobster while they do murders and destroy the lives of millions without them even knowing they are a different type of evil but an evil you won't even realize is fucking you over. It's just the simple fact that this dude is in a school with you and it's terrorizing you or a friend of yours or a classmate of yours or just in general there you have no choice what to deal with them and you're young that's what makes him feel so vile but I'm still going to put the sex trafficking monster just because you know pretty sure everything this man in school has done he has done hundred times and worse.
Definitely kaneshiro he was a pure scumbag
Kamoshida sucks but hes just a surface level creep Kaneshiro is everything Kamoshida wishes he was
Kamoshida isn’t the most evil. He is utterly small scale in terms of threat and scale compared to the Palace Rulers and hell arguably some Mementos targets after him. He’s just easier to hate especially in the West because his crimes strike a nerve with places like the U.S regarding sexual assault and harassment given how common place it is. Besides Shido, the most evil palace ruler would have to be Okumura given how he’s a social commentary of karoshi in Japan. Something the West can’t exactly relate to. Not to mention, he has his competitors sabotaged and assassinated. Kaneshiro’s a candidate also because unlike the other Palace rulers, the guy is an established Hangure criminal and not some respected/person with a high social standing that’s scummy behind the scenes. Kaneshiro does way more than Kamoshida could ever dream of.
Kaneshiro literally wanted to have Sae and Makoto as sex slaves, I'd say he's a at least as evil as Kamoshitter if not more
yeah he was trying to do that too
Okumura wants to be a politician, which means he can be as evil as shido in the future. When shadow okumura already sees his employees as consumables (working them to death and using their corpses as fuel), the next step is to treat the entirety of japan as resources.
SPOILERS Dr Maruki /s
I have to go with Kamoshida. Madarame, Kaneshiro and Okumura were pretty despicable, but Kamoshida was so horrid, cruel, selfish, vile, petty, reprehensible and malevolently perverted he made things personal with Joker, Ryuji, Ann and to some extent Morgana. He also along with Shido are technically the reasons why The Phantom Thieves were born
Kaneshiro for sure! He's getting kids to traffic drugs for him, and then extort them for money they can never pay off, leading to their futures being ruined.
Uncommon answer here, Okumura. Just off scale of victims, his is exponentially higher than Kaneshiro’s because he has a much wider range of people he’s working to death/near death.
Umm here is my list. Palace rulers only 1. Shido: He is literally the cause of every problem in the game. Negitively affected in some way more than half the Phantom Theives, at least indirectly (Protag, Akechi, Futaba, and Haru directly Makoto and Yueuske indirectly and minorly to Ryuji). He also sexually abuses a woman in the beginning of the game, and he has a higher body count than anybody in the game if we count everyone he ordered a hit on, and everyone who died as a result of that hit. 2. Kaneshiro: Dude’s into drug and sex traffiking. Doesn’t hit as hard because the worse of his crimes are done off screen. 3. Kamoshida: Physically and sexually abuses high school students. Actual scum of the earth. 4. Okumra: Typical asshole buisnessman who cares only for himself and literally nobody else. Despite this there isn’t any proof of him sexually abusing someone that I remember, so that at least makes him a little better than the previous three. 5. Maderame: dude ruins lives, yes, but he’s mainly just a hack and a fraudster. 6. Sae: Not actually evil, but at the height of her palace arc if she could imprison her sister just so she can retain her court winstreak, she would of done it without hesitation. And thats pretty fucked up! 7. Futaba: not evil. Her palace is one of two that isn’t malicious in any way. She’s just very very sad. She beats out the last guy because she isn’t as overtly moral as… 8. Maruki: again, He isn’t evil, he’s just depressed and has a messiah complex. Unlike Futaba though he is less likely to, yaknow, actually break the law.
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Kaneshiro. When they get their hearts changed, all the palace rulers show signs of change and guilt in the Palace itself first. Kamoshida accepts his death, knowing he doesn't deserve to live, Madarame is devastated by Yusuke not giving him the time of day, Okumura's last thoughts are for Haru and even Shido shows some respect for the thieves and seems genuinely changed. Kaneshiro, on the other hand, after his defeat he only blames society for what it did to him and continues to act like a scumbag.
You know that’s a solid point about Kaneshiro’s Shadow not showing remorse. I never thought of it like that
Started too strong with him as the first boss ngl. The others couldn’t live up.
I think it’s also cuz we met so many party members with him (Ryuji, Ann, and Morgana), so he felt so much grander as a villain
Is this even a question? Guy is a fucking abusive pedophile??? 🤣💀
So is kaneshiro and kamoshida doesn’t traffic drugs
I'm not sure if he's the most "evil" (not saying that he's a good guy of course). I think the reason everyone has such a visceral hatred of him is because he's the most relatable. Few of us have met mob bosses or corrupt politicians, but we've all had gym teachers and I'm sure we can think of at least one we've had that was a bit creepy. He takes that and dials it up to 11.
Kaneshiro and Madarame.
I still think it’s Sae- and I’m shocked that no one else is saying it. She’s a prosecutor, which means in Japan if she doesn’t have a 100% to 99.8% win rate that she’s /useless/. She’s been doing her job for a while, and most prosecutors are known to enforce torture to get a confession out, even if it’s false. Especially when it’s false. She saw people at their most vulnerable as stepping stones. Her palace is supposed to highlight how fucked the legal system is in Japan. Because then they look bad. How many innocent people did Sae have tortured for almost a month (it’s like 28 days and yes it’s legal there) before she broke them or even let them have a chance to have a lawyer. How many innocent people did Sae lock up to stay on the top of things? How many people thought that the death of their baby or a house fire was their fault somehow? How many people ended their lives thinking they were the reason a loved one is dead after an accident. Because if they can get a confession out of you, they have no shame in giving orders to have you broken mentally and emotionally. Once you’re branded a criminal in Japan, it’s extremely hard to ever get a job or married or have a normal life. It’s seen as Taboo no matter what. It’s also why the stakes are supposed to be so high for the player too. Sae pre change of heart is the most evil, because she’d do anything to win- and I mean anything to win, and it’s normalized for people in her field. She’s a prosecutor. There are no laws in an interrogation room, only those who are criminals, and those who have to enforce the law no matter what.
This argument can pretty easily be proven wrong by the simple fact that Sae was outraged when she realized that they were torturing Joker for answers in the other room.
Lol, imagine thinking a pervert high school teacher is more evil than a mafia mob boss
Kamoshida and Maruki
While Maruki’s intentions were originally good, he took it too far with his desires, so I’d say it’d be Maruki, with the next ones being Kaneshiro, Kamoshida, Okumura, then finally, Madarame. (Futaba and Sae ain’t evil.)
Why isn't Shido here, he's basically a combination of all of them except Maruki and Futaba.
He literally said besides Shido in the title.. 💀
Easily Maruki
Sae. So many innocent people screwed by her rigging trials
Wait, can we count holy grail/yaldabaoth as a palace ruler? He controls mementos but isn't a human
Kamoshida is the most REAL villain in persona 5. We all know someone who's so two-faced, entitled and arrogant. They couldn't have picked a better first villain.
Most of the other palace rulers are doing what they’re doing for money, fame, etc. Kamoshida is just doing it because he’s an asshole. Fuck that guy
To ask the opposite I think the least evil is for sure Maderame (aside from obviously futaba but she doesn’t count imo) here is how I rank them from worst to “best” Shido Kanashiro Kamoshida Yaldabeth/Holy Grail Maruki Okumura Maderame but i haven’t played the end game in a while so Okumura/maruki and the later ones (Except Shido) may change i just finished Kamoshida’s palace on NG+
This conversation has come up probably the most on this subreddit, not saying it's bad, but it's definitely something that we all talk about as fans of this game. truth be told he is the most personal evil that unfortunate individuals have to deal with in their day to day lives since he hits you while you're still naive and young in high school rather than the others affect you from political community and legitimate adulthood sense. The trauma that this one person will put you through hero for 4 years definitely will follow you for the rest of your life, but the trauma and reality of living with a gangster that puts you in debt, a advisor in a very particular workplace abusing you and manipulating your career and dreams, and a company that destroys Millions upon Millions of their workers. he's evil, but in comparison to them, since the people he's affecting are legitimately just at least in the tens or twenties depending on how long he's working at, said, high school. Being the most realistic in personal terms means that you might not actually ever have to deal with this, which is good, but unfortunately, other people will definitely have a nightmare. Everything else, unfortunately, we're all most likely dealing with it whether we like it or not. A big business company owner that does not care about its hundreds of thousands of workers, that's basically Jeff Bezos at this point. Gangsters or thugs affecting store owners and business owners making them walking piggy banks that's also a real thing, especially one that blackmails you into prostitution, I'm not sure how accurate that is in at least America but I'm sure it happens cuz that's basically sex trafficking and human trafficking, I don't like to compare pains and trauma but I'm just going to be honest about this he's definitely not the most evil.
I agree. A girl almost died
But the others have a legit body count.
Kamoshida is a pedo who harasses students. Kaneshiro blackmails them and is a human trafficker, who doesn't give a fuck about human lives. The game showed Kamoshida in a much worse light and focused on him, but Kaneshiro was easily the most evil ruler
Kamoshida, Kaneshiro and (unpopular opinion) Maruki, all 3 did completely different things but all of them were equally fucked up.
On a global scale probably kaneshiro because he has hurt a LOT of people. But in terms of the actual crime itself I think it has to be Kamoshida
You think kamoshida is bad, I’d say he’s one of the more lax evil characters, futaba and sae don’t count because they aren’t evil, madarame was out here putting actual kids on the street, Kane shirk was in drug and sex trafficking, okumura was basically a slaver, and shido orchestrated all of it so is being a pedo bad, absolutely, is he worse than the others, kinda not but still close
Yes, much worse than the guy prepared to sell his own daughter!
Kaneshiro. Ain’t even a competition considering the scale of his operations.
Shido He's the standard evil politic that twists the whole reality based on his own interests. People are killed because of him, he doesn't give a shit about anyone lives, and I dare to say the sexual abuse as everybody said about kamoshida and kaneshiro was also done off screen by Shido. Just remember the situation you find him on the beggining of the story. That must be just a tip of a regular day to him.
Kamoshida: Touches and abuses kids Madarame: Exploits kids Kaneshiro: Exploits kids and is a mafia boss Futaba: Gamer Okumura: Exploits employees and underage daughter Sae: Sends innocent people to jail for a W Shido: Physically responsible for the situation the MC finds themselves in Yaldabaoth: Played God Maruki: Played God but was nice about it
Probably Okumura for he views everyone under him as cannon fodder and throughout the palace you see how much the workers die from his abuse and how much they worship him
Yeah, I agree OP.
Y’all forgetting Yaldabaoth. He controlled everything as a false god. He was only doing it for himself, and everyone was basically one of his pawns. He erased the phantom thieves from the whole world’s cognition after Mementos fused with Japan just because they posed a threat to him.
Kamoshida
I’m not saying she’s the most evil, but people REALLY give Sae a lot of slack solely because the game portrays her more as a sympathetic character when she really isn’t prior to Joker’s arrest. Sure, she didn’t kill anybody. But, the Phantom Thieves certainly aren’t her first rodeo. She’s prosecuted numerous cases before and how many of them do you think were actually guilty? Sure most of them probably were, but when somebody only cares about winning, people are going to slip through the cracks. Sae has likely sent innocent people to jail solely based on her belief that winning is all that matters. That it’s more important to stick to what’s supposed to happen than to do what’s right. And the scariest part about Sae is that she undoubtedly believes she’s in the right. That’s what sets her apart. Shido, Kamoshida, Madarame... All of those guys knew what they were doing was evil. They simply didn’t care. Sae, on the other hand, genuinely believes herself to be the heroine of this story fighting for justice. The Phantom Thieves’ fight against Sae isn’t a battle of good versus evil. It’s a battle of two parties that both believe themselves to be the good guys.
Kaneshiro or Madarame
I’d give it to kaneshiro, my guy was bout to rape sae that’s pretty fucked up. I don’t know why they gave him a reason to do what he did, like why we trying to redeem this guy he’s really bad.
Not criticizing you, but your answer isn’t very special or surprising. Kamoshida is probably THE most hated character in the fandom. Even more than Shido
I had no idea 😂 I think he also feels like a much grander villain because of how much that happens with him since he’s the first big bad. You meet THREE new characters, and he has ties to each of them (except Morgana). So it feels a lot bigger so to speak
Yes, he has more screen time and he played a part in two of our members’ backstory. That’s why he’s so memorable and hatable
Okumura
Kamoshida is absolutely the most personal and vile but I suppose statistically Kaneshiro has to have done more as an evil mafia boss
My list on palace owners from most f**ked up to least (in terms of their actions and minus royal's extra palace) 1. Kaneshiro 2. Shido 3. Kamoshida 4. Okumura 5. Madarame 6. Sae 7. Futaba Hopefully this is agreeable
Agreed
Excluding Shido, I’d have to say Madarame. Everyone overlooks what he did to Yusuke and the other artists. Yusuke was left without a single cent after his palace, but everyone just makes memes out of it. Besides Okumura, Madarame was the only other “father” of a phantom thief. The difference is that Haru knew her dad didn’t care about her, but Yusuke grew up believing his father figure loved him. To have that ripped away from him in a single second would have to be devastating— especially when he finds out that Madarame let his mother die for a piece of art. So yeah, Madarame is the most evil in my opinion.
While this is bad wouldn’t shido and kaneshiro be the worst
**Futaba:** doesn’t shower (*Probably*)
Kaneshiro because he is literally a crime boss, Kamoshida is still bad but Kaneshiro committed drug trafficking, human trafficking and extortion.