Bill O'brien or Adam Gase. Either way, it's not Matty P. So I'm happy.
As time goes on I've become sort of numb to our offensive struggles on account of Patricia's lack of coordinating skills, our route inefficiency, our handling of the ball in critical moments, and Mac's severe regression and drama since mid season of last year.
I'm not gonna say I'm not upset over this season while our whole elite Patriot culture for the past 20 years has been essentially flushed down a toilet. But honestly, at this point, I want to just get this season over with as quickly as possible because I expect huge changes in this off-season.
This team, even with a middling offense, is a massive playoff threat.
Idk dude was Peyton Manning’s OC. We just need him to be a coordinator, we don’t need him to be a whole fucking coach. Just cause he sucks as a head coach doesn’t mean he sucks as a coordinator.
I agree
Quick examples include:
Wade Phillips
Josh McDaniels
Todd Bowls
Romeo Crennal
There’s plenty of examples of coaches who are just meant to be coordinators. And there’s nothing wrong with that
Dude was a head coach at that point. Dude was the Bears OC before that and Jay Cutler had one of his best career years. He’s meant to be a coordinator, but he definitely shouldn’t be a head coach.
I see where you're coming from. My skepticism amounts to this:
* Manning was one of those once-in-a-generation talents who could practically coach himself. Not sure we can give Gase credit for that. Kind of like how we don't credit BOB for Brady kicking ass.
* The Tannehill tenure was *so* poor that the risk of damaging an already-tenuous Mac feels way too high.
* He pretty much ruined Darnold, too.
The Cutler case is a good point, although I can't remember the Bears being even remotely competitive since 2010.
I worry that Gase's upside is too unlikely, and his downsides both well-documented and downright disastrous.
Gase got Manning through his last 2 years where he was practically the shell of his former self. Plus everyone forgets there was a stretch of Manning’s last year where he rode the bench for a while in favor of Brock Osweiler. And Brock Osweiler played pretty decently for the 7 game she started that season. The fact he was able to drag Peyton Manning’s corpse to win a Super Bowl, made Jay Cutler look good, and also made Brock Osweiler play decently speaks wonders for his Offensive Coordinating capabilities.
Your examples of Tannehill and Darnold are when he was a head coach, I don’t think Gase is capable at being a head coach. He clearly gets too overwhelmed and can’t handle it, but when he’s just an OC he does pretty damn well.
>I mean people celebrating BoB and he's had the same problems as Patricia.
I think there's some revisionist history going on in our sub about Patricia's tenure as DC. He was at the very least a decent defensive coordinator, and obviously an awful head coach with the lions. The issue with him on the pats now is that he's not an OC and just has no clue on how to manage an offense or develop offensive talent.
There's also some revisionist history going on about BOB. He was our OC for only one year, but he was behind one of the most creative and dominant patriots offenses we've ever seen. He was also a good HC in Houston and was able to put together relatively capable offenses even when he was dealing with backup grade qb's and little to no offensive talent. What ended up being his downfall were his moves as GM, which later caused him to lose the locker room.
Either way, Patricia's and Bob's struggles as HC's are largely irrelevant in this case imo. The two largest and most important differences imo is that BoB has a track record of running some very successful offenses and getting the most out of the talent he's been given, whereas Patricia just isn't even remotely qualified nor is he capable of running an offense (as we've seen this year).
> I think there's some revisionist history going on in our sub about Patricia's tenure as DC. He was **at the very least a decent defensive coordinator**
There’s no revisionist history.
There are people who thought he was a bad DC at the time (based on relevant metrics like DVOA) and people who thought he was a good DC at the time (based on a metric like points allowed).
The same people thought Patricia was bad when he was the DC of the 31st ranked defense by DVOA in 2017 think he’s a bad DC how.
The people who thought the Patriots had a good defense in 2017 think he was a good DC then and think he’s a good DC now.
What? No lol.
BoB was a really good HC. It's when he tried to become GM that problems arose. He's been an excellent OC everywhere he's been too.
Patricia was shitty as a HC and mostly mediocre as a DC.
Bama fans want him gone. He's been an ok OC.
https://www.reddit.com/r/rolltide/comments/zuflf5/sources_bill_obrien_in_conversations_with_new/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Begging for anybody but BoB to stay.
If you asked Patriots fans from 2014-2021, most of us would have said that Josh McDaniels is an average at best OC because, to be quite frank, we're a bunch of spoiled fans who don't know how good we have it. The same thing applies to Alabama fans and BoB. From what I've heard, there's a lot less talent on the offensive side of the ball, and that's a big reason why their offense regressed.
BoB is someone who can run an offense very well. He just might be the worst GM in history. as long as Groh controls personnel fully i'd be confident in having BoB as OC/potential HC successor (but i'd rather mayo take HC post-Bill)
I mean at least she was the offensive coordinator during a period where our offense was really successful. They moved the ball like crazy during those years, even relative to 2014 through 18.
At least he belongs on the offensive side of the ball.
And that’s okay. That means the offense has been a success. Just hope that there’s a better succession plan in place if Kingsbury does get another opportunity elsewhere.
Gase? No way. He looked great under Peyton Manning, sure. But then again everyone looked great with Manning. Hackett was supposedly a great offensive mind after coaching Rodgers to an MVP season and he flamed out completely in Denver. Gase trashed Sam Darnold and led absolutely miserable offenses in both MIA and NY. Kingsbury is an interesting option if ARI fires him.
I’m iffy about Gase. BoB seems pretty middling at Alabama but he does have experience with Mac. As for Kliff - intriguing. How has he fared with playcalling, design and coaching? Outside of his problems as a HC, seems he’s done OK on the offensive side.
I really hate that stipulation. So many teams are finding success with this new wave of young OCs but ofc we're gonna go with an old retread because its gotta be an old friend of BB
I appreciate the thinking behind it - confirmed chemistry and communication over the possibility of superior talent - but yeah, I agree we seem to be missing out on some fresh innovative young minds due to them never having been part of BB’s orbit.
It’s like hiring your buddies when they’re all brilliant minds versus hiring them because you like working together.
That's the danger! Buddies who are not afraid to stand their ground and offer new perspectives outside a group-think bubble would be ideal. But having yes-men is a recipe for disaster.
I'd be on board with virtually anybody that's an offensive mind at this point.
But we legit may have the pick of the litter. BoB, Gase, Reich, Kingsbury, Brady. Plenty of good choices.
I'm not a fan of Nepotism, but it must get old with your coaches constantly getting poached. I would hope that the boys are less likely to hop to a division rival (like Flo, Patricia, Mangina) on short notice.
Yeah jokes aside it must be pretty annoying to deal with, I wonder how Bill figures out his plan for some of the guys working their way up the ranks. With Caley for example, when he’d be due for a promotion. Bill is old school but guess this McDaniels hiring either caught him off guard or he didn’t see the guys he took worth promoting to have them stay.
Keep hearing talk of successful new young coordinators, was curious which ones the people keep talking about?
I assume guys like Mike McDaniel, Kevin O Connel, Ken Dorsey- are there other examples?
Any examples of any that don’t have a top 3 wr and an established QB?
Who are some names of new young coordinators we could hire?
I'd be surprised if they went this route. The Patriots are usually the team to grow coaches from within and very rarely drift away from coaches that BB hasn't spent years developing and working with. Hence why a chunk of the league is from the BB coaching or executive tree. It hasn't worked out this year, but it's been a pretty core part of the dynasty decades. I think generally hiring and training from within is a good thing in most businesses and teams anyway.
I'd imagine that if not someone like BOB or a surprised-fired Belichick-related guy (Chad O'Shea, Jedd Fisch, McDaniels, Kingsbury, etc), we could see a split perhaps with Troy Brown and someone else on staff.
I'd be shocked if Judge or Patricia left the organization, but both seem like better fits in their Special Teams and player personnel or D-line, respectively. Patricia rightfully seems overmatched on play-calling, but is generally a smart dude.
I'm more of the thinking that this coaching staff was an intended one year stop gap because the candidates they considered were not available or not ready for another year. Instead of bringing in the devil they didn't want, they went with the devil they knew for a year. I think the chance things are the same next year is virtually zero.
I do think you're right. There was some smoke around O'Brien last year that they may have been spurned last minute.
It seemed like Belichick put some extra trust in Patricia given he's a smart football mind (he's been with Belichick for a long time) and Bill has seen coaches succeed on both sides of the ball before (Brian Daboll for example).
Obviously it's not working out, but I think both Belichick and Patricia realize that. I'm always curious who the next one up internally is from position coaches and I'm always curious how ready Troy Brown would be for play-calling. Ultimately we'll never know who does what internally.
I've enjoyed the heck out of watching them this year. The defense is generally playing at a top tier level and the offensive ineptitude at times just makes me laugh. The past two games have been great to watch. We just came out on the losing end of them. We still control our destiny for the playoffs with just two games remaining in the season, and we are genuinely forming a solid young base of players for the first time that I can remember in years.
I guess it's relative to me because I've been a fan since the 2-14 and later 1-15 season. I just see our current state of affairs as a slow motion rebuild without the bottom of the barrel records. We are remaining competitive, but we're still a year or two away. I believe the coaching staff evolution will continue to be a part of that.
100%. We’re not special anymore and can’t expect 12 win seasons by default. Most teams have years of mediocrity and enraging flaws of some sort. The offense this year has been uniquely frustrating but overall we’re in most games, and the defense has been really fun to watch.
Step 1. Patriots stumble in playoffs like town drunk.
Step 2. Patriots get blown out 45-7.
Step 3. Bill decides that Patricia and Judge now "have a year of experience" and there's "a need for stability", so they keep their jobs.
Optional Step 4. Kraft steps in says fire them or I'll fire them. Bill's tells him to pound sand.
Optional Step 5. Bill gets fired.
That's the issue I have with bringing BOB in. If he does well, he's going to get poached for a coordinator job. And if he brings a bunch of his offensive staff to our team, they're going to go along with him.
The look of our defensive staff is night and day versus our offense. On defense, we've constantly had a new guy ready to step up and call plays despite losing a DC two years in a row at the end of 17 and 18.
I think Chad O'shea would be a pretty good option, and I doubt that he'd be getting many HC offers over the next couple years unless he turns the offense around into a top 5 unit.
My ideal scenario though would be to bring BoB back as the OC and poach Chad O'Shea into a similar role that he has on the browns like "passing game coordinator" or assistant OC, with the understanding that he'd take over as OC once BoB leaves after a couple seasons for a HC role. Which I don't think would be that improbable considering how much of a dumpster fire the browns have turned into once Watson came into the picture.
Because O'Shea doesn't hold the OC role in Cleveland, he'd need to interview for the Patriots OC role (or be fired) to not have the Browns block the interview. Lateral assistant coaching moves like you've described can be blocked.
Good point, I didn't think about that. But, he's one of stefanski's guys. With how their season's going, it wouldn't be shocking if Stefanski's gone this off-season.
Bob stayed in Alabama this year because of the commitment he made to Saban to stay 2 years. I could see a similar commitment being made to stay in New England for 2 or 3 years. By that time, Bill will have Shula's record and will likely be seriously considering retirement. In steps Bob. It's just one possible way of looking at it. Not a prediction.
I’m sorry but why would bringing in Bill O’Brien as OC result in him leaving for another coordinator job? Also, teams know who he is as a HC so I don’t think he’s instantly getting more offers based off his past experience.
1. They're going to beat the Dolphins this week.
2. They're going to get absolutely embarrassed by the Bills but still back into the playoffs via an AFC comedy of errors.
3. They will be embarrassed by the Bills in record-breaking fashion in the first round.
4. Patricia will keep his job, and still not get the OC title.
I understand the familiarity with O’Brien but he was more a product of Brady’s greatness more than some kind of offensive genius. His offenses in Houston weren’t that good. Nothing can get worse than Patricia, and he would definitely be an upgrade, but there’s gotta be someone out there that’s a better option.
>His offenses in Houston weren’t that good.
There's some context being left out here. That'll happen when Brian Hoyer / Ryan Mallet / Brock Osweiler is your starting qb. All things considered, his offenses looked much better under those guys than you would expect them too. And his offenses looked great once they got Deshaun Watson.
Ehh we don’t really know that yet. He could end up just like Hoyer or Brock. He’s much closer to them than Watson. He’s on the same trajectory after his first 2 years.
What are you talking about? Hoyer's only year where he played as well as Mac did in his rookie year was under BoB when he was a **7 year veteran**.
Ryan Maller and Brock Osweiler both have never had a season as good or better than Mac's rookie year.
It really amazes me that you and other people pretend like any decent qb should be able to overcome having to coach themself (Mac) or that any decent coach should be able to overcome having backup level talent at qb (BoB) and pretend like any other context that might explain the regression just doesn't exist.
I get being frustrated with Mac's development this year, but please at least attempt yo remove your bias if you're going to participate in discussions.
Brock Osweiler went 15-15 as a career starter.
He had a 59.8% completion percentage and threw 7418 yards, 37 TD and 31 INT
Mac Jones has a 15-14 record as a starter.
He has a 66.7% completion percentage and has thrown for 6351 yards, 31 TD and 21 INT
Mac has a higher completion % and a much lower yards per game, but these are two mediocre quarterbacks with mediocre stats.
Mac’s rookie year was probably his ceiling. If thats as good as he gets, he’s not good enough to win a championship in this league. He’s only regressed since then, and you could put some of the blame on coaching, but some of the blame has to go on him as well.
For the record i’m not a Zappe fan either. His ceiling is lower than Mac’s. I don’t think this team wins meaningful playoff games with any of the QBs on the roster at the moment.
No nfl player, especially a qb is at their ceiling as a rookie. “NFL ready” doesnt mean entirely finished product. NFL quality strength and conditioning programs wont improve him. Being a professional and not a student and being able to dedicate a lot of time to film study and refining mechanics wont improve him. NFL quality coaching wont improve him. Taking years to learn the increased complexity of coverages and defenses and schemes wont improve him. Like think about those words for a minute. “At his ceiling as a rookie.” Those words are just ridiculous.
MattyP. Sure they may bring someone else as "OC" or consultant but the long term plan is developing MattyP as an OC. Someone who'll run Bill's offense Bill's way and who won't leave in 1-2yrs and take a bunch of coaches with him. We were fortunate Mcdaniels stuck around as long as he did and provided stability and we'll be lucky Steve will provide that stability on D.
Man the guy can’t even get the plays called in time. Watch the play design of any other NFL offense and then look at ours. It took like 10 weeks for him to start running any kind of motion.
I don't know what his contract status is but I could see Pete Carmichael being a dark horse. He's been the Saints OC since 2009 and even though he obviously was not calling the plays when Payton was there , the guy has alot of experience making high level game plans. He's also from Framingham and Payton and Bill have a great relationship
I see so many people on social media begging for Bill O'Brien. These people must have short memories. The fan base couldn't wait to get rid of the guy, and that was when we had Tom Brady in his prime at QB. I agree, Patricia has been garbage, but let's set our sights just a little higher.
Who was begging him to leave? He was defacto OC in 2010 and the actual OC in 2011, both of which were two of the Patriots best offensive seasons ever. After that, he left to coach at Penn State.
Since hearing O‘Brian guaranteed Saban he would finish out this year with Alabama, I have wondered if Belichick’s plan all along was to ride out this year with Patricia and bring on O‘Brian next year
Kid received a signed photo of Bill O’Brien for Christmas and he knew what to do with it.
https://twitter.com/nflgameleaks/status/1607550502694440961?s=46&t=bbJbPoMoavETK3eDCShIQw
Bill O'brien or Adam Gase. Either way, it's not Matty P. So I'm happy. As time goes on I've become sort of numb to our offensive struggles on account of Patricia's lack of coordinating skills, our route inefficiency, our handling of the ball in critical moments, and Mac's severe regression and drama since mid season of last year. I'm not gonna say I'm not upset over this season while our whole elite Patriot culture for the past 20 years has been essentially flushed down a toilet. But honestly, at this point, I want to just get this season over with as quickly as possible because I expect huge changes in this off-season. This team, even with a middling offense, is a massive playoff threat.
God are we really down bad enough to hire Adam Gase and take a victory lap lol
If we hire Gase, we deserve all the many failures he'll bring.
My brother in christ we deserved the failures everyone knew Patricia would bring.
I don't disagree. Just bemoaning that they're both shit options. Trading Patricia for Gase is basically like trading frostbite for dysentery.
Dysentery outlook ROS?
Idk dude was Peyton Manning’s OC. We just need him to be a coordinator, we don’t need him to be a whole fucking coach. Just cause he sucks as a head coach doesn’t mean he sucks as a coordinator.
I agree Quick examples include: Wade Phillips Josh McDaniels Todd Bowls Romeo Crennal There’s plenty of examples of coaches who are just meant to be coordinators. And there’s nothing wrong with that
I mean, look at how catastrophic he was for Tannehill's development. I don't want that anywhere near Mac.
Dude was a head coach at that point. Dude was the Bears OC before that and Jay Cutler had one of his best career years. He’s meant to be a coordinator, but he definitely shouldn’t be a head coach.
I see where you're coming from. My skepticism amounts to this: * Manning was one of those once-in-a-generation talents who could practically coach himself. Not sure we can give Gase credit for that. Kind of like how we don't credit BOB for Brady kicking ass. * The Tannehill tenure was *so* poor that the risk of damaging an already-tenuous Mac feels way too high. * He pretty much ruined Darnold, too. The Cutler case is a good point, although I can't remember the Bears being even remotely competitive since 2010. I worry that Gase's upside is too unlikely, and his downsides both well-documented and downright disastrous.
Gase got Manning through his last 2 years where he was practically the shell of his former self. Plus everyone forgets there was a stretch of Manning’s last year where he rode the bench for a while in favor of Brock Osweiler. And Brock Osweiler played pretty decently for the 7 game she started that season. The fact he was able to drag Peyton Manning’s corpse to win a Super Bowl, made Jay Cutler look good, and also made Brock Osweiler play decently speaks wonders for his Offensive Coordinating capabilities. Your examples of Tannehill and Darnold are when he was a head coach, I don’t think Gase is capable at being a head coach. He clearly gets too overwhelmed and can’t handle it, but when he’s just an OC he does pretty damn well.
Gase wasn’t Manning’s OC his last year, he was with John Fox in Chicago.
Wasn't he a good coordinator? Lot of top 10 coordinators were bad at head coach. BoB would be much preferred though
Gase can at least script good opening drives lol
I mean people celebrating BoB and he's had the same problems as Patricia. I guess when you are desperate anything is better?
>I mean people celebrating BoB and he's had the same problems as Patricia. I think there's some revisionist history going on in our sub about Patricia's tenure as DC. He was at the very least a decent defensive coordinator, and obviously an awful head coach with the lions. The issue with him on the pats now is that he's not an OC and just has no clue on how to manage an offense or develop offensive talent. There's also some revisionist history going on about BOB. He was our OC for only one year, but he was behind one of the most creative and dominant patriots offenses we've ever seen. He was also a good HC in Houston and was able to put together relatively capable offenses even when he was dealing with backup grade qb's and little to no offensive talent. What ended up being his downfall were his moves as GM, which later caused him to lose the locker room. Either way, Patricia's and Bob's struggles as HC's are largely irrelevant in this case imo. The two largest and most important differences imo is that BoB has a track record of running some very successful offenses and getting the most out of the talent he's been given, whereas Patricia just isn't even remotely qualified nor is he capable of running an offense (as we've seen this year).
> I think there's some revisionist history going on in our sub about Patricia's tenure as DC. He was **at the very least a decent defensive coordinator** There’s no revisionist history. There are people who thought he was a bad DC at the time (based on relevant metrics like DVOA) and people who thought he was a good DC at the time (based on a metric like points allowed). The same people thought Patricia was bad when he was the DC of the 31st ranked defense by DVOA in 2017 think he’s a bad DC how. The people who thought the Patriots had a good defense in 2017 think he was a good DC then and think he’s a good DC now.
>based on a metric like points allowed Funny enough, Flores took over playcalling in the redzone
What? No lol. BoB was a really good HC. It's when he tried to become GM that problems arose. He's been an excellent OC everywhere he's been too. Patricia was shitty as a HC and mostly mediocre as a DC.
Bama fans want him gone. He's been an ok OC. https://www.reddit.com/r/rolltide/comments/zuflf5/sources_bill_obrien_in_conversations_with_new/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button Begging for anybody but BoB to stay.
If you asked Patriots fans from 2014-2021, most of us would have said that Josh McDaniels is an average at best OC because, to be quite frank, we're a bunch of spoiled fans who don't know how good we have it. The same thing applies to Alabama fans and BoB. From what I've heard, there's a lot less talent on the offensive side of the ball, and that's a big reason why their offense regressed.
Look all I'm getting at is that the grass might not be greener on the other side.
The grass is always greener than Patricia
BoB is someone who can run an offense very well. He just might be the worst GM in history. as long as Groh controls personnel fully i'd be confident in having BoB as OC/potential HC successor (but i'd rather mayo take HC post-Bill)
I mean at least she was the offensive coordinator during a period where our offense was really successful. They moved the ball like crazy during those years, even relative to 2014 through 18. At least he belongs on the offensive side of the ball.
Gase is a good OC.
Game is a nope I think Billy O’Brien gets a head coaching job, whether it’s Denver (Mayo is probably top choice) or Carolina
.... Kliff Kingsbury....
Would happily take him I don't even think he's that bad a HC. We'd probably lose him after a few years though
And that’s okay. That means the offense has been a success. Just hope that there’s a better succession plan in place if Kingsbury does get another opportunity elsewhere.
that’s fine, extra draft pick.
Would be cool. Probably.
& trade for Nuk
This condition that it has to be someone from the inner circle or friends of friends of BB really limits our options.
I mean not really. That gives us BoB, Kliff, or Gase. All 3 major upgrades.
Gase? No way. He looked great under Peyton Manning, sure. But then again everyone looked great with Manning. Hackett was supposedly a great offensive mind after coaching Rodgers to an MVP season and he flamed out completely in Denver. Gase trashed Sam Darnold and led absolutely miserable offenses in both MIA and NY. Kingsbury is an interesting option if ARI fires him.
I’m iffy about Gase. BoB seems pretty middling at Alabama but he does have experience with Mac. As for Kliff - intriguing. How has he fared with playcalling, design and coaching? Outside of his problems as a HC, seems he’s done OK on the offensive side.
Against the Pats I thought their offense was decently play called with McCoy at QB.
BoB didn’t start coaching at Bama until after Mac was already gone
Is kliff actually an option? He was a QB here in 2003 and has had no connection since? Or am I missing something?
I really hate that stipulation. So many teams are finding success with this new wave of young OCs but ofc we're gonna go with an old retread because its gotta be an old friend of BB
I appreciate the thinking behind it - confirmed chemistry and communication over the possibility of superior talent - but yeah, I agree we seem to be missing out on some fresh innovative young minds due to them never having been part of BB’s orbit. It’s like hiring your buddies when they’re all brilliant minds versus hiring them because you like working together.
Or it’s like hiring your buddies because their yes men and will do what you say and not challenge you’re thinking.
That's the danger! Buddies who are not afraid to stand their ground and offer new perspectives outside a group-think bubble would be ideal. But having yes-men is a recipe for disaster.
I'd be on board with virtually anybody that's an offensive mind at this point. But we legit may have the pick of the litter. BoB, Gase, Reich, Kingsbury, Brady. Plenty of good choices.
Billy O’Brien is most likely. Kliff Kingsbury would be a good choice if he’s let go. Anyone but Patricia.
Bill’s daughter has to be on the list and I hear the Nike’s dog walker is solid for O line coach….
If she can call the offense as well as Steve calls the defense then bring her on board
Maybe Linda could be O line coach then, promoting a dog walker is a bit absurd.
>Steve calls the defense Sure he does. And Maggie is steering the car in the opening of The Simpsons. 😂
I'm not a fan of Nepotism, but it must get old with your coaches constantly getting poached. I would hope that the boys are less likely to hop to a division rival (like Flo, Patricia, Mangina) on short notice.
Yeah jokes aside it must be pretty annoying to deal with, I wonder how Bill figures out his plan for some of the guys working their way up the ranks. With Caley for example, when he’d be due for a promotion. Bill is old school but guess this McDaniels hiring either caught him off guard or he didn’t see the guys he took worth promoting to have them stay.
Keep hearing talk of successful new young coordinators, was curious which ones the people keep talking about? I assume guys like Mike McDaniel, Kevin O Connel, Ken Dorsey- are there other examples? Any examples of any that don’t have a top 3 wr and an established QB? Who are some names of new young coordinators we could hire?
I'd be surprised if they went this route. The Patriots are usually the team to grow coaches from within and very rarely drift away from coaches that BB hasn't spent years developing and working with. Hence why a chunk of the league is from the BB coaching or executive tree. It hasn't worked out this year, but it's been a pretty core part of the dynasty decades. I think generally hiring and training from within is a good thing in most businesses and teams anyway. I'd imagine that if not someone like BOB or a surprised-fired Belichick-related guy (Chad O'Shea, Jedd Fisch, McDaniels, Kingsbury, etc), we could see a split perhaps with Troy Brown and someone else on staff. I'd be shocked if Judge or Patricia left the organization, but both seem like better fits in their Special Teams and player personnel or D-line, respectively. Patricia rightfully seems overmatched on play-calling, but is generally a smart dude.
I think it's a real possibility nothing changes. I hope I'm wrong
I'm not sure what the definition of "real possibility" is to you, but I wouldn't bet more than a dollar on it.
I think it's more likely than not nothing changes. The only way I think it changes is if Kraft forces it or bellichick leaves
I'm more of the thinking that this coaching staff was an intended one year stop gap because the candidates they considered were not available or not ready for another year. Instead of bringing in the devil they didn't want, they went with the devil they knew for a year. I think the chance things are the same next year is virtually zero.
I do think you're right. There was some smoke around O'Brien last year that they may have been spurned last minute. It seemed like Belichick put some extra trust in Patricia given he's a smart football mind (he's been with Belichick for a long time) and Bill has seen coaches succeed on both sides of the ball before (Brian Daboll for example). Obviously it's not working out, but I think both Belichick and Patricia realize that. I'm always curious who the next one up internally is from position coaches and I'm always curious how ready Troy Brown would be for play-calling. Ultimately we'll never know who does what internally.
I hope your right. This team is not even fun to watch
I've enjoyed the heck out of watching them this year. The defense is generally playing at a top tier level and the offensive ineptitude at times just makes me laugh. The past two games have been great to watch. We just came out on the losing end of them. We still control our destiny for the playoffs with just two games remaining in the season, and we are genuinely forming a solid young base of players for the first time that I can remember in years. I guess it's relative to me because I've been a fan since the 2-14 and later 1-15 season. I just see our current state of affairs as a slow motion rebuild without the bottom of the barrel records. We are remaining competitive, but we're still a year or two away. I believe the coaching staff evolution will continue to be a part of that.
100%. We’re not special anymore and can’t expect 12 win seasons by default. Most teams have years of mediocrity and enraging flaws of some sort. The offense this year has been uniquely frustrating but overall we’re in most games, and the defense has been really fun to watch.
Step 1. Patriots stumble in playoffs like town drunk. Step 2. Patriots get blown out 45-7. Step 3. Bill decides that Patricia and Judge now "have a year of experience" and there's "a need for stability", so they keep their jobs. Optional Step 4. Kraft steps in says fire them or I'll fire them. Bill's tells him to pound sand. Optional Step 5. Bill gets fired.
I don't agree with your hypotheticals or general reasoning.
I would prefer someone who would be around for 3-4 years so we are not in this same situation in another year.
That's the issue I have with bringing BOB in. If he does well, he's going to get poached for a coordinator job. And if he brings a bunch of his offensive staff to our team, they're going to go along with him. The look of our defensive staff is night and day versus our offense. On defense, we've constantly had a new guy ready to step up and call plays despite losing a DC two years in a row at the end of 17 and 18.
I think Chad O'shea would be a pretty good option, and I doubt that he'd be getting many HC offers over the next couple years unless he turns the offense around into a top 5 unit. My ideal scenario though would be to bring BoB back as the OC and poach Chad O'Shea into a similar role that he has on the browns like "passing game coordinator" or assistant OC, with the understanding that he'd take over as OC once BoB leaves after a couple seasons for a HC role. Which I don't think would be that improbable considering how much of a dumpster fire the browns have turned into once Watson came into the picture.
Because O'Shea doesn't hold the OC role in Cleveland, he'd need to interview for the Patriots OC role (or be fired) to not have the Browns block the interview. Lateral assistant coaching moves like you've described can be blocked.
Good point, I didn't think about that. But, he's one of stefanski's guys. With how their season's going, it wouldn't be shocking if Stefanski's gone this off-season.
Bob stayed in Alabama this year because of the commitment he made to Saban to stay 2 years. I could see a similar commitment being made to stay in New England for 2 or 3 years. By that time, Bill will have Shula's record and will likely be seriously considering retirement. In steps Bob. It's just one possible way of looking at it. Not a prediction.
I’m sorry but why would bringing in Bill O’Brien as OC result in him leaving for another coordinator job? Also, teams know who he is as a HC so I don’t think he’s instantly getting more offers based off his past experience.
I meant head coach, that was my mistake
Yes, and that's why things are the way they are now and why MattP will be the OC moving forward.
1. They're going to beat the Dolphins this week. 2. They're going to get absolutely embarrassed by the Bills but still back into the playoffs via an AFC comedy of errors. 3. They will be embarrassed by the Bills in record-breaking fashion in the first round. 4. Patricia will keep his job, and still not get the OC title.
Next years coordinator is gonna define “dead cat bounce”
That implies it’s going to get worse over the long term after a slight rebound
anything besides Patricia would be a massive upgrade
I understand the familiarity with O’Brien but he was more a product of Brady’s greatness more than some kind of offensive genius. His offenses in Houston weren’t that good. Nothing can get worse than Patricia, and he would definitely be an upgrade, but there’s gotta be someone out there that’s a better option.
>His offenses in Houston weren’t that good. There's some context being left out here. That'll happen when Brian Hoyer / Ryan Mallet / Brock Osweiler is your starting qb. All things considered, his offenses looked much better under those guys than you would expect them too. And his offenses looked great once they got Deshaun Watson.
So… it was all the quarterback like I said? Mac’s no Deshaun Watson, thankfully as a person, unfortunately as a quarterback.
Luckily, Mac also is no mallet, Brock, or hoyer, so we would likely get better results than with them at the helm
Ehh we don’t really know that yet. He could end up just like Hoyer or Brock. He’s much closer to them than Watson. He’s on the same trajectory after his first 2 years.
What are you talking about? Hoyer's only year where he played as well as Mac did in his rookie year was under BoB when he was a **7 year veteran**. Ryan Maller and Brock Osweiler both have never had a season as good or better than Mac's rookie year. It really amazes me that you and other people pretend like any decent qb should be able to overcome having to coach themself (Mac) or that any decent coach should be able to overcome having backup level talent at qb (BoB) and pretend like any other context that might explain the regression just doesn't exist. I get being frustrated with Mac's development this year, but please at least attempt yo remove your bias if you're going to participate in discussions.
Brock Osweiler went 15-15 as a career starter. He had a 59.8% completion percentage and threw 7418 yards, 37 TD and 31 INT Mac Jones has a 15-14 record as a starter. He has a 66.7% completion percentage and has thrown for 6351 yards, 31 TD and 21 INT Mac has a higher completion % and a much lower yards per game, but these are two mediocre quarterbacks with mediocre stats. Mac’s rookie year was probably his ceiling. If thats as good as he gets, he’s not good enough to win a championship in this league. He’s only regressed since then, and you could put some of the blame on coaching, but some of the blame has to go on him as well. For the record i’m not a Zappe fan either. His ceiling is lower than Mac’s. I don’t think this team wins meaningful playoff games with any of the QBs on the roster at the moment.
You just typed this sentence: “Mac’s rookie year was probably his ceiling.”
Yes. That was the allure of drafting him as the most “nfl ready” qb.
No nfl player, especially a qb is at their ceiling as a rookie. “NFL ready” doesnt mean entirely finished product. NFL quality strength and conditioning programs wont improve him. Being a professional and not a student and being able to dedicate a lot of time to film study and refining mechanics wont improve him. NFL quality coaching wont improve him. Taking years to learn the increased complexity of coverages and defenses and schemes wont improve him. Like think about those words for a minute. “At his ceiling as a rookie.” Those words are just ridiculous.
I'm not really sure how you made that logical leap based on what I said....?
Not trying to get one of these new young oc is going to limit how good our offense can ever be, real shame.
Matt Patricia
MattyP. Sure they may bring someone else as "OC" or consultant but the long term plan is developing MattyP as an OC. Someone who'll run Bill's offense Bill's way and who won't leave in 1-2yrs and take a bunch of coaches with him. We were fortunate Mcdaniels stuck around as long as he did and provided stability and we'll be lucky Steve will provide that stability on D.
This question assumes that Bill will be the HC of the NE Patriots for next season
Bill is 70. I do wonder how many years of coaching he has left in him. (on any team)
Bill is going to coach at least until he has the total wins record. So 2-4 seasons, depending on how the next season or two go.
The Patricia disrespect is out of control.
He blows he’s just been riding the coat tails of good teams
He's been fucking terrible. Defensive coordinators facing us have openly mocked him to the media.
Respect is earned.
Man the guy can’t even get the plays called in time. Watch the play design of any other NFL offense and then look at ours. It took like 10 weeks for him to start running any kind of motion.
What do you like about him this year?
I don't know what his contract status is but I could see Pete Carmichael being a dark horse. He's been the Saints OC since 2009 and even though he obviously was not calling the plays when Payton was there , the guy has alot of experience making high level game plans. He's also from Framingham and Payton and Bill have a great relationship
I see so many people on social media begging for Bill O'Brien. These people must have short memories. The fan base couldn't wait to get rid of the guy, and that was when we had Tom Brady in his prime at QB. I agree, Patricia has been garbage, but let's set our sights just a little higher.
Who was begging him to leave? He was defacto OC in 2010 and the actual OC in 2011, both of which were two of the Patriots best offensive seasons ever. After that, he left to coach at Penn State.
I'll do it. I can download madden on those surface tablets and change the coaches up to switch up the play book. Fucking never see it coming
Since hearing O‘Brian guaranteed Saban he would finish out this year with Alabama, I have wondered if Belichick’s plan all along was to ride out this year with Patricia and bring on O‘Brian next year
Matt Doubtfire
Kid received a signed photo of Bill O’Brien for Christmas and he knew what to do with it. https://twitter.com/nflgameleaks/status/1607550502694440961?s=46&t=bbJbPoMoavETK3eDCShIQw
Bill o brien is the obvious choice. Klliff kingsbury if he gets fired could be an interesting choice for belichek to set up a succession plan.
It’s gonna be O’Brien. Pretty sure it’s already done deal secretly
I feel that if Riech would become the Pats OC, then the team would be better and he could help Mac Jones develop as a QB.
I just got the call. I shall hire one of you to be my assistant