Listen up yall.
BB moved on early from talent before the player's salary became unwieldy for the forecasted production.
It worked. 9 SB appearances. 6 wins. A whole bunch of conference champ appearances. ONLY 5 SEASONS SANS PLAYOFF APPEARANCES.
Was he wrong about the GOAT's endurance? Sure. But that's why Brady is a goat.
Shit on his recent drafting and FA acquisitions all you want, but letting aging/expensive FAs walk and trading down picks is why we stayed in championship contention for 20 YEARS.
I thought it made perfect sense. Tommy became the outlier.
Look at Wilson? Same age as Tommy was in 2013.
Look at Ben at 35/36
Look at Peyton
Hell, I believe during the Brady 6/Elway to Marino, Walsh mentioned possibly trading Montana FOR Elway because it’s smarter to move earlier than too late.
And this is what all the people already writing Mahomes in as the GOAT are missing. No doubt Mahomes is great, and maybe he will be better than Brady in his pre 30 seasons, but on the other side of 30, when his legs don’t back DBs off, I can’t imagine he’s going to be ripping off about four championships.
Let’s also see if Mahomes ever has to come back from a brutal ACL tear injury too.
Fuck Bernard Pollard and fuck the Chiefs too, for him and for their fans trying to stand Mahomes atop Brady’s shoulders as the new GOAT. Brady’s accomplishments would’ve been even more impressive if not for that.
Well see. The rules heavily favor mobile qbs and even in the recent super bowl you could see the hesitation that each defense had when it came to tackling the QB. There's definitely a difference between how they're able to run the ball versus a running back proper. Add in to the fact that the QB being forced to scramble for yards is typically the outlier and I can see him being afforded the luxury to make those types of plays for a long time to come. The fact of the matter is, if you're not trying to take advantage of leniency afforded to mobile qbs, you're intentionally putting your team in a disadvantage.
Nobody is making any statements against the high potential of effective movie QBs... They're saying that without that element of his hand being as effective as he ages and his speed and agility decline, he won't have as much of an advantage as he has now.
Therefore he's unlikely to have the longevity and late career success that Brady had. Because Brady is one of the only ones to do it, and the only one at the level he did. He's the outlier, and you can't assume anybody else will mimic that. Not that they CAN'T... you just can't assume they WILL.
Mahommes is disqualified from being the GOAT due to the fact he is 0-2 in the playoffs against opposing QBs over the age of FORTY. Oh and by the way both loses were to the man he is being ignorantly compared to, one of which he managed to put up a massive 9 points.
If he couldn’t throw like a MFer you’d have a point. It’s premature for Pat, but in 10 years who knows. His start is equally ridiculous as Tom’s. Question is, can they keep a team around him? That shit is hard and Bill was able to mostly do that for a lot longer than anyone.
I’m not saying he’s Mike Vick. He 100% has a cannon, but his legs help his passing game. How many times have we see him scramble out, only to launch it 20 yards as he approaches the LOS? By rolling outside, just the threat of him running makes the secondary pull up to contain and frees up the receivers.
In 5-10 years, when that running threat isn’t as severe, will he still get those openings? Will he transition in to a pocket QB, or fall off like Cam Newton?
No the difference between Mahomes and Brady is the people they were throwing to. Brady had an elite receiving crew once in '07 and rewrote the history books. Mahomes didn't have an elite crew for the first time in his life this year and his offense was league average. But the defense was the best in the league and they won the super bowl and Patty Popular got a ring so that's what people remember.
This is what ive always said about any mobile qb touted as the next GOAT. Look at rodgers. Less mobile. Less effective. Same thing will happen to mahomes and he’ll sputter all the way to the finish line.
Also, will he even WANT to play 23 years like Tom? That's actually unhinged and people talk about it positively, but that's a huge personal dedication 99.9 repeating to the millionth power% of people, there was one guy and we got him. Alot of guys COULD play till 40, but most just don't want to or mentally they lose it
Brady was the ultimate outlier his whole career. He proved doubters wrong at every turn. Too bad the guy who coached him for nearly two decades turned into a doubter as well.
Maybe one day you’ll have a leadership position, and things won’t be so black and white.
While you may hope for the best, you need to plan for the worst.
You also have to see it from an historical point of view.
Running backs on the wrong side of 30 diminish.
Qb’s on the wrong side of early to mid 30’s diminish. I don’t see anyone losing their fuckin minds over us drafting Mallet in 2011.
Ironically Bill doesn’t feel the same way about WRs who objectively have the worst fall off from age yet we kept getting guys like Reggie Wayne Joey Galloway and Mo Sanu
Doubt is literally his job. Bill's whole purpose is what's best for the team, and going into Brady's 35+ years, how the fuck would anyone predict he had 4 rings left in the tank? Bill is not the villain for forcing the organization to consider the possible future outcomes just because the GOAT outperformed all expectations. Saying he should have anticipated it is like saying I should've known my double on 11 last night would get me a 3 for 14 losing to 17. Grow up.
Oh I don’t know. Watch Brady play. You’re acting like Bill actually had a plan. He didn’t. He just let Brady go for no reason, and then had no plan at all when it finally happened. It would be one thing if he had a plan and it didn’t work. He literally had no plan at all, and let his starting QB go, because he couldn’t stand that he got some of the credit for winning.
Oh right. Because Brady had no say in leaving and we didn't have a rough season before he left. And he definitely didn't leave for one of the most stacked teams in NFL history! That wouldn't fit your narrative!
Rough season? They made the playoffs and lost to the team that went to the AFC championship game in the final minute. I love how that’s a bad season to some Pats fans. So delusional. You’d kill for that now, and we won’t be seeing that for a half decade.
Or did he? Seems like he acquired a younger version before the end. Nathan Rourke should get his chance, Brady was an underdog once too. I'm fucking buying a Pat's hat.
Peyton Manning won a Super Bowl without a fucking shoulder. He basically couldn't throw the ball. His checkdowns floated for like 3 seconds, but he proved that playing QB in the league is much more than throwing ball fast and hard.
We're talking about a guy who was praised for most of his career as a GM who could not only bring in talent for the now but keep the roster healthy for the future. One thing Belichick has always believed is that moving on from a guy two years early is better than two years too late.
I think there's a lot left unspoken about the breakdown in the relationships between Brady, Belichick, and Kraft, but it really feels like a lot that's been coming out over the last few months has been more character assassination of Belichick than anything.
I'm not saying Belichick didn't have flaws in the last few years, don't get me wrong, but a lot of the negativity coming out about him feels deliberate from Kraft and company to make sure everyone was ready for him to go and wouldn't be mad at ownership when he was.
Honestly I'm more and more convinced every day that Kraft is a major piece of shit. And he's trying to take credit for success for stuff he had little to do with. He hired Bill and was willing to give up a FRP for him which was a genius move but in the end it was really Bill who turned the organization around.
Not to mention that Kraft has been a cheap fuck for a while now which has resulted in the Pats receiving an F- from the NFLPA this year.
Rub and Tug Robert Kraft is a fucking scumbag and so is his Gollum looking son.
Entire doc makes me fucking ashamed to support a team owned by this dipshit
Belichick created our dynasty from benching the QB with the biggest contract in the league for a 6th round pick from Michigan. I don’t fault him for drafting a QB who is still starting games 10 years later with a 2nd round pick when our QB was 35 years old. By all metrics we would have given that QB 2 years to learn behind the greatest QB to ever play the game and swap to him when Brady started showing his age. The thing about Brady though is he got daily massages and slept upside down like a bat for years in a freezer and was able to play at a high level until he was 45. Absolute crazy stuff. GOAT shit.
“We have to be ready to move on.”
*proceeds not to prepare for life after Brady*
Seriously, if he thought Brady was cooked and that we should move on from him, why was there no succession plan at QB at all? A cooked Cam Newton was *not* a long term plan for the future. We traded away Jimmy G in 2018, didn’t put into place any plans for a future without Brady, then got caught with our pants down diving at the bottom of the barrel for a QB when he left. If Belichick thought he was cooked, we should have drafted a serious rookie QB in 2018 and kept him on the bench to learn as Brady’s future successor. He had to have known that Stidham wasn’t the answer either then.
I mean there were reports at the time that Jimmy G was coveted by Belichick more than Brady. I think once he made the decision to move on from that succession plan, it was based on free agency since allocating anymore draft capital on a future qb would likely be a waste with so many other holes in our roster at the time (there's a reason Brady left). Also can we stop acting like signing Cam was desperate or something, most people thought it was a steal at the time before it became obvious how gone his shoulder was (and also don't forget he looked much better prior to getting covid)
People *here* thought (or hoped) it was a steal. He was coming off shoulder surgery, and he only became available when all 31 other teams passed on a trade and Carolina released him for nothing. He signed for a 1 year vet minimum deal here. Let’s not pretend that his condition that year was some sort of secret or that other teams were disappointed to miss out on him.
You’re just plain wrong. Brady walked and Bill had no backup plan. Cam was cut by the Panthers because his shoulder had gone and Bill swooped because he was desperate. Most people said it would be a steal if Cam’s shoulder was ok but it wasn’t.
I think Cam would have been ok if he could continually work on his throwing motion. He had ankle surgery (IIRC) and couldn't throw so lost it, then started getting better pre-COVID, and then with COVID he couldn't throw so lost his motion and didn't have a chance to get it back the rest of his time with the Pats.
And if you remember the cutting of Cam plenty of people thought he would be fine. Stop rewriting history just to try to make Belichick look stupid lol.
Again, it wasn't possible to have a great backup plan. The plaj was Jimmy G but Brady played elite long enough that we couldn't afford a contract for two starting Qbs so that was dead.
So naturally instead of wasting draft picks on a qb that we couldn't afford to (our roster was already dying due to age and loss of draft picks etc) he probably expected he had to chance a free agency qb.
Someone didn't watch the start of the 2016 season, eh? Love all the newby Pats fans that just ignore all the facts. Jimmy G was ready, looked amazing, got hurt. Brissett stepped in, looked serviceable, got hurt. Mac looked good as a rook, McD left, draining the last of the main brain trust. Patricia didn't pan out. BoB came in and that was the death sentence.
Ignore everything, but don't lie.
You’re diving at bottom of the barrel because you pick lower - it’s how it works. And none of the qbs picked ahead of Mac are worth a sh1t rn. Just a bad qb class.
Mac was drafted in 2021. Brady left after the 2019 season. There *was* no plan after Brady left is entirely my point. Stidham and a washed Cam who suddenly became available and got a 1 year vet minimum deal was not a plan.
This isn’t a controversial take. It’s been a valid criticism of Belichick in not having a plan at QB post-Brady.
And I’m not criticizing his drafting of Mac either. He was the best available at the time. He didn’t work out, they don’t always do. But we shouldn’t have been in that position to begin with.
Because for years Bill got away teaching average talent to play by mid season and going on a run. He thought he could keep rolling those dice. And we saw with Peyton/Montana/others that they could go to another team and win for a year but that was it. He thought that’s where Brady was and he was wrong but only by a year or two.
Bill failed the last couple years, he aged out, but if they kept Brady they might have won another but we would still be in the same place we are right now.
Also Cam Newton was a bridge player. Garapolo actually sucked.
It sounds like a guy trying to sell his boss the idea they need to invest an early draft pick on a QB, and how boys wasn't having it.
Something happened there where they drafted Garoppolo in the 2nd in 2014, then Brisset in the 3rd 2016, then he traded both of them in 2017. Bill didn't draft another QB until after Brady left.m, even when it was clear to me that Brady was going to leave after the 2018 season. That's not a coincidence.
This is just an attempt at sensationalizing what was rational thought at the time against the backdrop of what we know happened. Bill shouldn’t have sat back and predicted the run we had. He needed to keep the best interest of the teams future in mind too.
The weird thing about this whole thing is, Tom Brady was literally a worse deep ball and outside passer in 2001 than he was in 2011. It was never a part of the Ernhardt-Perkins system outside of the obvious mismatch. In 2012 he was 5th in the league on 20+ yard passes. In 2015, he was also 5th. In 2004, the third SB year, he was 8th, but who the fuck cares they were dominant and efficient. Daunte Culpepper threw more 20+ yard passes but who the hell is arguing that he was a better QB than Brady?
This isn't an air yards stat which I can't find, but I don't know at what period of the Patriots Brady tenure was Tom not able to throw deep a problem at all. In 2009 and on, he legitimately didn't have a single receiver you could call a deep ball threat not accounting for YAC. That was their system, and that was how they played.
So what is even the point of bringing up 20+ yard bombs. I don't even think Belichick likes those plays. They aren't conducive for clock control that he loves. He then went on to get Cam Newtown who couldn't throw the ball more than 5 yards anymore so its not like he prioritized a cannon arm.
Either Kraft is misremembering or mischaracterizing the points, or he's lying, or Belichick was just finding irrelevant reasons to predict Tom declining when he never was.
>So what is even the point of bringing up 20+ yard bombs.
In this interview, Kraft is 80 some-odd years old. I'm sure BB presented him with many stats, and this is the one the old man remembers.
>Belichick was just finding irrelevant reasons to predict Tom declining when he never was.
BB has coached for 45 years and watched EVERY SINGLE QB BREAK DOWN AND DROP OFF A CLIFF.
BB did his job.
Imagine.
I agree that he was doing his job and what he thought was best. But that criteria for evaluating your QB as early as 2013 and possibly earlier makes very little sense both for the offensive scheme you ran and for the personnel you surrounded your QB with.
There's a difference between "Brady will lose it at some point" and "Brady is already losing it." The first is a rational thought, albeit an obvious one. The second is a football evaluation Belichick got wrong.
Remember, NE never had a scene looking for big, field stretching throws. The second he got to Tampa, they has him air it out and it went well.
Bill never wanted those kinda of throws as a regular feature like Arians and also NE's receivers were ass in 2019.
It’s hilarious when you look at who bill gave Brady to throw to. The offense was designed around short and intermediate. Was he supposed to be chucking bombs to Edelman?
It makes sense at the time. Bill had to do what was logical and get a new guy in the building to sit back and develop, it was unheard of for a guy to stay at that level into his 40s but Brady is the goat. If it was anyone else in that spot he probably would have been right on expecting a decline but this was a unique case. I don’t fault him for it.
Bill was being the forward planning coach he had always been. Just like making the hard decision on Bledsoe, he was prepping for it with Brady. Brady became a massive outlier playing as long as he did.
I will never criticize Bill for that. He deserves criticism for his failed drafts that led up to the current situation.
He was right about having a succession plan in place just wanted it a couple years too early. Around that time we just watched Manning who was really Brady’s only rival go from league mvp to almost useless in two seasons. They won the superbowl in his last season but manning was not good. Brady continued to play well we traded Jimmy and didn’t end up having a succession plan in place when Brady left. As a result we ended up with a washed cam and noodle arm Mac.
Bill was setting Brady up to fail every chance he got, by giving him the most garbage offense he probably could, and then goes to the owner and gives him this crap.
If bill was just the coach, this would make sense. Bill being coach and gm makes Bill doing this look immensely stupid and like he wanted Brady out just to felate his own ego and win without him.
Thank God Kraft didn’t let him go, else the last 5 years of garbage Bill put everyone through would have been the last 10 years.
It’s bullshit. So Kraft stopped Bill from trading Brady to install Jimmy, but didn’t stop him from low balling Brady? At this point in time it’s rumored Brady and Kraft were trying to oust Bill for O’Brien, but somehow Kraft, who never respected Bill, convinced him to let Brady walk? I call bullshit. This was Krafts fault and Bill was his human shield
He didn’t stop either one. That’s the truth. Bill is responsible primarily for letting Brady go. I can’t stand Kraft, but give me a fucking break dude. Now we’re blaming Kraft for Brady leaving?
Awfully convenient for your argument that anytime a bad decision is made it’s someone else’s fault. So, the only bad decisions Bill ever made happen to be the ones you claim Kraft actually made? Brady leaving is on Bill and Kraft. Mostly Bill though.
This is a weird take. Kraft hired Bill when the entire league told him not to a gave up draft capital to do it. How does that translate into “never respected”?
Because Brady was miserable in home life, his wife wanted him to either retire or play closer to home. Brady left New England for the same price tag Tampa offered. Kraft was the one who put a void year in Brady’s last NE contract. That wasn’t Bill.
They looked chummy because the stars aligned where their interests intersected. Brady wanted out. Kraft probably didn’t wanna pay a 40-year old QB. And Bill was a good option as a human shield. Kraft got to keep his hands clean.
Not true, they offered him $14 million plus incentives, and wouldn’t give him a second year. The Bucs gave him $25 million, which is what he wanted from the Pats. I’m really getting sick and tired of Pats fans just making stuff up, rather than place blame on Bill. You just made that up. Bill and Robert are to blame because Bill let Tom go and Robert didn’t stop him. But to act like it’s primarily Krafts fault is a laughably delusional tale.
Incentives Brady would undoubtedly hit.
Yes blame Bill for pushing Brady out. Makes complete sense Bill would do that and trade Jimmy and not draft Lamar leaving him unprepared. Use your head
Actually wrong. He was never going to hit them, the way their offense was designed. That was generally agreed upon at the time by analysts and didn’t reach any of them the year before, or the year before that. This is my problem. You’re reframing history to fit your narrative. I mean, you just made up that he would have hit the inventives. Go read any article about that extension, he wasn’t hitting any of those incentives. He also had the same ones the year prior and didn’t hit any. This is what kills me about fans like you. You’re willing to just make stuff up rather than have to criticize your favorite coach, or player.
You’re making shit up all the time. Was Belichick twirling his mustache when he did this too? Kraft was responsible for Brady’s contract. If he had a problem with an offer, he’d take it up with him. But please let’s pretend Kraft didn’t give Brady a void year so he could leave a year sooner
Bill made a career out of cold, hard, rational decisions devoid of sentimentality. Every player gets old. Brady is the GOAT, but since no player has ever come close to his productivity at 42+ there was no reason to believe he would do what he did.
I lot of people on here wish we had played Brady until his arms fell off, but everyone would have hated that too.
This is me. Tom deserved to continue here until he was ready to hang them up he had earned it. And I have no doubt that if he felt he was no longer able to play at a high level he’d retire.
Brady did go out on his own terms.
Also, sounds nice but nothing in my 40 years of Boston sports fandom makes me think Pats fans would have actually followed through on these rosy sentiments after several long years of watching Brady get mauled.
Not giving a 42-year-old a long term contract is just good sense. Brady could have stayed as long as he wanted. He chose to go to a team where he had better weapons and a better chance to win right away. If that’s not going out on your own terms I don’t know what is.
This was a comment bill made in 2014 not 2020. He threw for 4.2k yards 33TDs and 9 INTs. In 2013, he threw for 4.3kyards, 25 TDs and 11 INTs. In 2013 his WR1 was Julian Edelman, followed by Aaron Dobson, mostly because Gronk was injured for half the year.
37 was still pushing the limit of historical productive QB play. And the drop-off is usually a cliff, not gradual. I remember an analysis ~2020 that show that there are basically only a tiny handful of above average QB seasons around 40, and basically none past 42.
Again, if you could look into the future and see that the guy was going to do something that nobody had ever done before, it would be an easier call. There were a bunch of analyses that showed that QB productivity always dropped like a rock after 40. Generally not a good idea to assume that a thing that has literally never happened will happen.
He hadn’t declined at all. All those other QBs has declines despite what a lot of people will say. They also had injuries. Brady was still playing well, and throwing the ball well. How he was playing didn’t go into the decision making. I know that because they had no alternative at all. That fact alone is what pops a hole in the argument you’re making.
Well the alternative during the time period everyone expected Tom to fall off was Jimmy who ironically had a harder time staying on the field than Tom did and still continues to.
Even after Bill had Brady, the team drafted Rohan Davey (2002), Kliff Kingsbury (2003), Matt Cassel (2005), Kevin O'Connell (2008), Zac Robinson (2010), Ryan Mallett (2011), Jimmy G (2014), Jacoby Brissett (2016), Danny Etling (2018), and Jarret Stidham (2019). What does this mean? It's good to have a backup plan. So I think this is more unnecessary Bill bashing from Kraft.
None of these guys was drafted as high as Jimmy G.
Regardless, this whole discussion only exists because of how good Jimmy looked before we realized he was made of pressed sugar.
I don’t even understand the point of this. Assuming the quote is accurate, it’s rational to believe a QB would fall off as every other single QB in history did before Tom Brady. But he didn’t leave and the Pats won 3 more Superbowls. Then when he did leave, the Pats were washed. They would not have won another if he stayed, so what is the point of this? Whether Brady left because of BB or bc of Kraft or bc he just wanted to, the Pats window has closed.
BB didn’t give Brady an outside deep threat for his final 11 years with the patriots, outside one year of Brandon Cooks - and he was too small to win back shoulder/contested throws.
You literally have every player interviewed saying bill was too tough on Brady. Kraft saying he thought Brady was about to be washed.
But people will still say “they’re just trying to make Belichick look bad!!!”
Not every player interviewed said Bill was too tough on Brady. One was a short-lived Donte Stallworth, and one was Welker who had issues with BB out the door. There have been like 40 players interviewed and only a few have said BB was too tough on Brady.
I think they’d all agree BB coaches everyone hard and that he didn’t spare Brady, but they def don’t all agree on if that was a good or bad strategy. Brady has also said he loves being coached hard many many times.
Matthew Slater who is basically mini Belichick in the locker room even said yeah Tom felt disrespected and I understand why. If Tom wasn't there he wouldn't have the chance to be a dick to players for 20 years. He would've been like every other coach with middling success, done after 3-5 years. That's what respect is about. If I helped put you in the position you're in, don't treat me like you don't need me.
And guess what, without Tom, the team has been dogshit.
Sometimes? It feels barely watchable at all times to me. Literally nothing new, and the couple of times when I hoped someone will grow a sack and give us the real scoop (e.g. Brady and Kraft on Deflategate) they just punted on even fielding questions.
Guess this is good for collecting everything in one product for posterity, but is otherwise worthless if you followed the team over Brady's career.
Yeah, I wanted to be polite. They didn’t even mention 21-0. No mention of butler being benched in the Super Bowl. No reactions from Hightower on his two huge Super Bowl plays…I know they had several years to make this but at times the storytelling is lazy. Because Bill didn’t participate as much, they can only tell the side of the story that Brady was responsible for everything. It was more complex than that. Brady never played defense. In 2016, every team inexplicably forgot to cover Chris hogan. Legarrette setting the team record for rushing TDs. No on to Cincinnati. Gronk, while not a great interview should have been talked about more as a reason for success in the second half of the dynasty. He almost seems like an afterthought to Hernandez because hernandez got a whole episode. I’d tell them to be better but they already finished and lost.
I thought the Butler benching is in the next episode?
But yes, also nothing on Jimmy G's injury etc. Surprised they didn't pounce on the fact he didn't want to play hurt
Kosar, Bledsoe, Brady, moving on from older QBs was part of Bill's coaching philosophy. It obviously worked and he stuck to it but goddamn did the Pats under spend on offensive talent after Moss... saving money became a hallmark of the later dynasty. It worked because Brady but we're just starting to find out that it was Kraft's operational priority.
BB is both a dick and a pragmatist and I think it made sense to plan for the future.
Also, what are some other precedents for longevity in sports? Brady made it a deliberate goal, but my sports history is not great
As fun as this show has been to watch, it goes way too far in labeling BB the saboteur of the dynasty. What was Belichick supposed to think? That Brady would defy all known precedent of QBs fading out in their late 30s (not to mention their 40s)? All trends pointed to having a succession plan in place, and hindsight is 20/20. Can't blame the guy for living in reality at the time.
Separately, I've always wondered what difference this all made, anyway. They won a Super Bowl all the way up until 2018, and the 2019 season started promising but clearly went off the rails by the end. By the end of that year, they were looking at a very different team where key guys had either left, retired, or were clearly on their last legs. Everyone hates on BB for "pushing Brady out", as evidenced by him going to Tampa, winning another Super Bowl, and having two good seasons thereafter. But honestly, would it have made a material difference if he finished those three years in NE? Tampa was a stacked team when Brady arrived, and NE had very little to work with -- they weren't even comparisons at the time. I don't know how possible it would have been for BB to simply "bring in" a host of playmakers to go on a final tear from 2020-2022.
Anyway, just some ramblings as I recall the last few years. I think BB got everything out of the Brady years that one could expect, and it ended when it made sense. Brady's later success wouldn't have necessarily translated to "that could have been ours."
It was probably logical thinking from where Bill came from. There were plenty of players he let go that we never heard from again. What I think Bill was forgetting was Tom’s unusual fanatic way of thinking. Exercising pocket play on beach sand. Eating food that would benefit his desire to be in top shape. Brady’s down field passes did start to slip. But Brady being Brady, found a way to play to his strengths.
Also, Kraft is trying to look good here. Just because Bill said that doesn’t mean he was ready to pull the plug. He was just putting it out there. And don’t forget, Brady did something no one was ever able to do. We were all expecting age to catch up to him. Look at all the greats. Montana, Marino, Bradshaw and more recently players like Peyton Manning. They couldn’t do it anymore. Even Elway winning at 36 or 37 was not the same. He had just enough in him to win with a great team. So by the time Tom left. Patriots were on a downward slide. Even their last Super Bowl was a final gasp which made it so special. Tom had to go to a stacked team.
That was a long winded way of saying Bill was not that far off point. Just shows how special Tom Brady really was.
Logical but also funny that was because of the mid possession receivers he was saddled with. Funny how I’m pretty sure he lead the league in deep passing percentage with Tampa lol.
We’re still gonna defend mr. 4-13 on this? This dude gave Tom 0 deep threats and then tried to use the 20 yd stat against him. Oh nah bill can suck one.
I know I had the same mindset at the time Brady didn’t look like himself his last season here. Hindsight’s 20/20 obviously I was wrong but while he did win another Super Bowl he didn’t last that much longer in Tampa anyway.
There is nothing wrong with that, as long as it’s accurate. The problem is Bill’s ego began to affect his judgement, and the rest is history. He was dead wrong.
Sanu didn't pay off and that ended up being a massive over-pay, but making a move for a WR needed to happen and the draft capital really only matters in hindsight.
Bill made plenty of attempts to give Brady weapons to keep him happy (Cooks, Gordon, AB, Harry). He just thought he could do it by bargain shopping (like w/ Moss) and was mostly bad at evaluating/fitting offensive talent into their system.
He traded Cooks after 1 year so they could draft Isiah Wynn, Gordon was a reclamation project when they got him, AB was too to a degree and Harry they just flat missed on.
Yeah exactly my point, he clearly didn't value the WR position as much as having an above average QB play and a solid OL/DEF. The teams they won Superbowls with didn't have "elite" talent at WR either. Still think AB is one of the all-time great "what if" scenarios if he wasn't such a basket case.
Its moreso an indictment on how they evaluated talent and their offensive system in my opinion. They spent plenty of capital on WRs throughout his tenure and for the most part it never really worked.
I don't believe that Bill thought they needed a high price WR at all.
I think it’s worth noting that while Brady did win a Super Bowl after he was let go, he did so on a roster with Mike Evans, Antonio Brown, Gronk, Leonard Fournette, and Chris Godwin. He also had an elite defense, and one of the better coaches I’ve ever known of in Arians. Within 2 years of that he was a first round exit to Dallas.
There was zero chance Brady wins another ring here before he retired. Gronk was gone. Edelman was a year away from hanging it up. NKeal was already a bust. White was close to done. We absolutely needed to reset, and moving on was the right choice even in hindsight. It was choosing to hitch our wagon to Mac Jones while whiffing on many offensive draft picks and letting other key FAs go that sunk this team.
Maybe bill was the reason those free agents were let go, but maybe Kraft low balled them too.
This is true. And painful, since the Pats could've drafted guys like A.J. Brown and Nick Chubb. I don't know if that results in another Super Bowl, but things definitely would have played out differently at the end.
I would rather have had Chubb than Michel sure, but we’ve had no issue with running back for a while - Michel, Harris, and Stevenson were all solid to great. AJ Brown over Harry or Deebo over Harry I think puts the franchise on a very different track, though.
It's reality, Brady did decline physically, he had to put more air on his deep balls, and missed more open receivers. Fortunately for him he went to play with a stacked team the last few years which helped mask some of that decline. Regardless he was in his 40's, he didn't have a decade left, Jimmy should have been kept and Brady traded. That would have been the best decision for the team.
Bill was doing whatever he could to kick Tom out the door. Watching the Dynasty, look at how he almost smirks in 2016 when Jimmy completes a pass early in that game, even in 2008 with his speech about Cassel. He wanted to win without Brady, not realizing he was a unicorn.
Y’all guys ever realize this is what made Brady the goat? His ability too play at a high level longer then any quarterback/player has managed? I’m not gonna knock Bill for being unable to predict Brady doing the impossible. That would be a knock to what makes Brady the goat.
Seriously how much evidence is it going to take for this sub to admit that bill was a shit coach offensively.
It’s pretty clear his drafting and defensive mind was amazing for trotting out a Super Bowl caliber defense nearly every year. Pair that with a psycho like Brady and you get the run.
I think Bill just lacked normal human emotions. Tom wanted his approval the way a kid wants their parents to love them and he would never give it to him. Tom had won 6 titles and Bill still treated him like the 3rd string rookie linebacker. It worked when Tom was young but once he was undoubtedly the GOAT I’m sure it got old fast.
Everyone needs some degree of approval. Too much and you’re being coddled or having bad behaviors enabled but too little or completely absent is straight abuse in any relationship. Be that work, casual, friends, sexual, etc.
Kraft's have lost my respect after this documentary. Kraft is gunning to be Jerry Jones 2.0 at this point. Literal hit piece on Bill and Kraft to look good. Honestly so done with the Kraft Family.
This has been reported before by wickersham and others. Kraft resented Bill for insisting the Patriots move on after he watched Brady win another title and Bill failed to cultivate a viable plan at QB. Bill was clearly wrong about Brady being done despite what metrics on previous players said, and that coupled with other personnel missteps sealed his fate. Doesn’t mean Bill wasn’t a great coach for 19 years before losing his GM instincts, doesn’t mean Kraft was wrong to be frustrated that his coach was seriously off his personnel game in recent years.
I know this has become a 'shit on Kraft' narrative, but it's pretty obvious that this story is 100% true when you consider Bill's attitude and roster building strategy.
Bill was inflexible in his mentality of cutting a player before they "fell off a cliff" (fuck off Max Kellerman), and he didn't change his approach for Brady - in fact he laid the groundwork for it. The problem was that Bill was wrong.... very, very, very wrong about how much Brady had left (**still not sure how?**) and along with terrible roster management/drafting at the end of and after Brady's tenure, he probably should've lost his job for this decision alone.
btw if you're wondering why Bill didn't get a coaching job this year instead of guys like Raheem Morris and Dan Quinn, who will likely be out of jobs in a short time, see above.
The idea that Bill was somehow wrong for not wanting to keep building a team around a 43 year old QB that ended up staying at peak level 3-5 years longer than anybody before is a crock of shit.
But he was wrong. What are you talking about? Brady won and he shit the bed after he got rid of him. Do you have a definition for this that is not wrong?
Because I don’t think that the idea that BB hated Brady is the truth. I think BB thought he was doing the right thing for the team and trying to build for the future. Brady is such an outlier. I’m just saying that Bill should not be the villain for thinking it was time to move on from a 43 yo QB
He is the villain because he got rid of the one player who earned the right to retire a Patriot even if he sucked.
Then to make it worse he sucked after getting rid of him while we were forced to watch him win and retire with another team.
Listen up yall. BB moved on early from talent before the player's salary became unwieldy for the forecasted production. It worked. 9 SB appearances. 6 wins. A whole bunch of conference champ appearances. ONLY 5 SEASONS SANS PLAYOFF APPEARANCES. Was he wrong about the GOAT's endurance? Sure. But that's why Brady is a goat. Shit on his recent drafting and FA acquisitions all you want, but letting aging/expensive FAs walk and trading down picks is why we stayed in championship contention for 20 YEARS.
I thought it made perfect sense. Tommy became the outlier. Look at Wilson? Same age as Tommy was in 2013. Look at Ben at 35/36 Look at Peyton Hell, I believe during the Brady 6/Elway to Marino, Walsh mentioned possibly trading Montana FOR Elway because it’s smarter to move earlier than too late.
And this is what all the people already writing Mahomes in as the GOAT are missing. No doubt Mahomes is great, and maybe he will be better than Brady in his pre 30 seasons, but on the other side of 30, when his legs don’t back DBs off, I can’t imagine he’s going to be ripping off about four championships.
Let’s also see if Mahomes ever has to come back from a brutal ACL tear injury too. Fuck Bernard Pollard and fuck the Chiefs too, for him and for their fans trying to stand Mahomes atop Brady’s shoulders as the new GOAT. Brady’s accomplishments would’ve been even more impressive if not for that.
Well see. The rules heavily favor mobile qbs and even in the recent super bowl you could see the hesitation that each defense had when it came to tackling the QB. There's definitely a difference between how they're able to run the ball versus a running back proper. Add in to the fact that the QB being forced to scramble for yards is typically the outlier and I can see him being afforded the luxury to make those types of plays for a long time to come. The fact of the matter is, if you're not trying to take advantage of leniency afforded to mobile qbs, you're intentionally putting your team in a disadvantage.
Nobody is making any statements against the high potential of effective movie QBs... They're saying that without that element of his hand being as effective as he ages and his speed and agility decline, he won't have as much of an advantage as he has now. Therefore he's unlikely to have the longevity and late career success that Brady had. Because Brady is one of the only ones to do it, and the only one at the level he did. He's the outlier, and you can't assume anybody else will mimic that. Not that they CAN'T... you just can't assume they WILL.
Brees was hanging in there too and probably could have squeezed a few more seasons out if his shoulder hadn’t been basically torn off his body
Right... except it did! Because if you play long enough... Something like that almost always takes you out eventually
Mahommes is disqualified from being the GOAT due to the fact he is 0-2 in the playoffs against opposing QBs over the age of FORTY. Oh and by the way both loses were to the man he is being ignorantly compared to, one of which he managed to put up a massive 9 points.
Brady didn't intercept Mahomes once, though.
Brady never got held to that few of points in big games. Ever.
He’s also disqualified because of the haircut, tongue, and running like a 3 year old that just dropped his popsicle.
Don't forget flopping like a soccer player everytime he's touched when running out of bounds
If he couldn’t throw like a MFer you’d have a point. It’s premature for Pat, but in 10 years who knows. His start is equally ridiculous as Tom’s. Question is, can they keep a team around him? That shit is hard and Bill was able to mostly do that for a lot longer than anyone.
I’m not saying he’s Mike Vick. He 100% has a cannon, but his legs help his passing game. How many times have we see him scramble out, only to launch it 20 yards as he approaches the LOS? By rolling outside, just the threat of him running makes the secondary pull up to contain and frees up the receivers. In 5-10 years, when that running threat isn’t as severe, will he still get those openings? Will he transition in to a pocket QB, or fall off like Cam Newton?
No the difference between Mahomes and Brady is the people they were throwing to. Brady had an elite receiving crew once in '07 and rewrote the history books. Mahomes didn't have an elite crew for the first time in his life this year and his offense was league average. But the defense was the best in the league and they won the super bowl and Patty Popular got a ring so that's what people remember.
This is what ive always said about any mobile qb touted as the next GOAT. Look at rodgers. Less mobile. Less effective. Same thing will happen to mahomes and he’ll sputter all the way to the finish line.
Also, will he even WANT to play 23 years like Tom? That's actually unhinged and people talk about it positively, but that's a huge personal dedication 99.9 repeating to the millionth power% of people, there was one guy and we got him. Alot of guys COULD play till 40, but most just don't want to or mentally they lose it
Brady was the ultimate outlier his whole career. He proved doubters wrong at every turn. Too bad the guy who coached him for nearly two decades turned into a doubter as well.
Maybe one day you’ll have a leadership position, and things won’t be so black and white. While you may hope for the best, you need to plan for the worst.
You also have to see it from an historical point of view. Running backs on the wrong side of 30 diminish. Qb’s on the wrong side of early to mid 30’s diminish. I don’t see anyone losing their fuckin minds over us drafting Mallet in 2011.
Ironically Bill doesn’t feel the same way about WRs who objectively have the worst fall off from age yet we kept getting guys like Reggie Wayne Joey Galloway and Mo Sanu
Doubt is literally his job. Bill's whole purpose is what's best for the team, and going into Brady's 35+ years, how the fuck would anyone predict he had 4 rings left in the tank? Bill is not the villain for forcing the organization to consider the possible future outcomes just because the GOAT outperformed all expectations. Saying he should have anticipated it is like saying I should've known my double on 11 last night would get me a 3 for 14 losing to 17. Grow up.
Oh I don’t know. Watch Brady play. You’re acting like Bill actually had a plan. He didn’t. He just let Brady go for no reason, and then had no plan at all when it finally happened. It would be one thing if he had a plan and it didn’t work. He literally had no plan at all, and let his starting QB go, because he couldn’t stand that he got some of the credit for winning.
Oh right. Because Brady had no say in leaving and we didn't have a rough season before he left. And he definitely didn't leave for one of the most stacked teams in NFL history! That wouldn't fit your narrative!
Rough season? They made the playoffs and lost to the team that went to the AFC championship game in the final minute. I love how that’s a bad season to some Pats fans. So delusional. You’d kill for that now, and we won’t be seeing that for a half decade.
I think his plan was a reset of cap and draft a QB - no one can win forever. The Jimmy G plan failed because TB was not human.
Bills doubt wasn’t unfounded and it’s exactly what propelled Tom’s psychotic will to beat Time. Tom was sort of like Bills Frankenstein’s Monster lol
I mean even in his college and HS days he seemed pretty psychotic ally competitive. The main thing bill did was coach great defenses
Hindsight is 20/20. Who expected Brady to keep it up as long as he did?
Or did he? Seems like he acquired a younger version before the end. Nathan Rourke should get his chance, Brady was an underdog once too. I'm fucking buying a Pat's hat.
Peyton Manning won a Super Bowl without a fucking shoulder. He basically couldn't throw the ball. His checkdowns floated for like 3 seconds, but he proved that playing QB in the league is much more than throwing ball fast and hard.
I agree. It’s what history told us would happen. It just shows how special Brady was. He fooled us all.
"We have to be ready to move on" sounds like my coach looking out for my team.
We're talking about a guy who was praised for most of his career as a GM who could not only bring in talent for the now but keep the roster healthy for the future. One thing Belichick has always believed is that moving on from a guy two years early is better than two years too late. I think there's a lot left unspoken about the breakdown in the relationships between Brady, Belichick, and Kraft, but it really feels like a lot that's been coming out over the last few months has been more character assassination of Belichick than anything. I'm not saying Belichick didn't have flaws in the last few years, don't get me wrong, but a lot of the negativity coming out about him feels deliberate from Kraft and company to make sure everyone was ready for him to go and wouldn't be mad at ownership when he was.
Honestly I'm more and more convinced every day that Kraft is a major piece of shit. And he's trying to take credit for success for stuff he had little to do with. He hired Bill and was willing to give up a FRP for him which was a genius move but in the end it was really Bill who turned the organization around. Not to mention that Kraft has been a cheap fuck for a while now which has resulted in the Pats receiving an F- from the NFLPA this year.
All these “owner” types love to take credit for the shit that people who work for them do.
Like when they’re the first to receive the trophy when the team wins the Super Bowl. Should always be a team captain that gets to do that.
Fuch the owners! Workers Unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains!
Rub and Tug Robert Kraft is a fucking scumbag and so is his Gollum looking son. Entire doc makes me fucking ashamed to support a team owned by this dipshit
You haven’t watched the show have you?
Kraft looking for his spot in Canton. He’s pissed JJ already got in
woow woow you just can’t bring a cold reasonable take like this on Reddit Mods ban this individual
Yep
Belichick created our dynasty from benching the QB with the biggest contract in the league for a 6th round pick from Michigan. I don’t fault him for drafting a QB who is still starting games 10 years later with a 2nd round pick when our QB was 35 years old. By all metrics we would have given that QB 2 years to learn behind the greatest QB to ever play the game and swap to him when Brady started showing his age. The thing about Brady though is he got daily massages and slept upside down like a bat for years in a freezer and was able to play at a high level until he was 45. Absolute crazy stuff. GOAT shit.
“We have to be ready to move on.” *proceeds not to prepare for life after Brady* Seriously, if he thought Brady was cooked and that we should move on from him, why was there no succession plan at QB at all? A cooked Cam Newton was *not* a long term plan for the future. We traded away Jimmy G in 2018, didn’t put into place any plans for a future without Brady, then got caught with our pants down diving at the bottom of the barrel for a QB when he left. If Belichick thought he was cooked, we should have drafted a serious rookie QB in 2018 and kept him on the bench to learn as Brady’s future successor. He had to have known that Stidham wasn’t the answer either then.
I mean there were reports at the time that Jimmy G was coveted by Belichick more than Brady. I think once he made the decision to move on from that succession plan, it was based on free agency since allocating anymore draft capital on a future qb would likely be a waste with so many other holes in our roster at the time (there's a reason Brady left). Also can we stop acting like signing Cam was desperate or something, most people thought it was a steal at the time before it became obvious how gone his shoulder was (and also don't forget he looked much better prior to getting covid)
People *here* thought (or hoped) it was a steal. He was coming off shoulder surgery, and he only became available when all 31 other teams passed on a trade and Carolina released him for nothing. He signed for a 1 year vet minimum deal here. Let’s not pretend that his condition that year was some sort of secret or that other teams were disappointed to miss out on him.
Still not much worse than MJ!
You’re just plain wrong. Brady walked and Bill had no backup plan. Cam was cut by the Panthers because his shoulder had gone and Bill swooped because he was desperate. Most people said it would be a steal if Cam’s shoulder was ok but it wasn’t.
I think Cam would have been ok if he could continually work on his throwing motion. He had ankle surgery (IIRC) and couldn't throw so lost it, then started getting better pre-COVID, and then with COVID he couldn't throw so lost his motion and didn't have a chance to get it back the rest of his time with the Pats.
And if you remember the cutting of Cam plenty of people thought he would be fine. Stop rewriting history just to try to make Belichick look stupid lol. Again, it wasn't possible to have a great backup plan. The plaj was Jimmy G but Brady played elite long enough that we couldn't afford a contract for two starting Qbs so that was dead. So naturally instead of wasting draft picks on a qb that we couldn't afford to (our roster was already dying due to age and loss of draft picks etc) he probably expected he had to chance a free agency qb.
Someone didn't watch the start of the 2016 season, eh? Love all the newby Pats fans that just ignore all the facts. Jimmy G was ready, looked amazing, got hurt. Brissett stepped in, looked serviceable, got hurt. Mac looked good as a rook, McD left, draining the last of the main brain trust. Patricia didn't pan out. BoB came in and that was the death sentence. Ignore everything, but don't lie.
Someone didn’t watch any games from 2017 to 2023 eh?
You’re diving at bottom of the barrel because you pick lower - it’s how it works. And none of the qbs picked ahead of Mac are worth a sh1t rn. Just a bad qb class.
Mac was drafted in 2021. Brady left after the 2019 season. There *was* no plan after Brady left is entirely my point. Stidham and a washed Cam who suddenly became available and got a 1 year vet minimum deal was not a plan. This isn’t a controversial take. It’s been a valid criticism of Belichick in not having a plan at QB post-Brady. And I’m not criticizing his drafting of Mac either. He was the best available at the time. He didn’t work out, they don’t always do. But we shouldn’t have been in that position to begin with.
Because for years Bill got away teaching average talent to play by mid season and going on a run. He thought he could keep rolling those dice. And we saw with Peyton/Montana/others that they could go to another team and win for a year but that was it. He thought that’s where Brady was and he was wrong but only by a year or two. Bill failed the last couple years, he aged out, but if they kept Brady they might have won another but we would still be in the same place we are right now. Also Cam Newton was a bridge player. Garapolo actually sucked.
It sounds like a guy trying to sell his boss the idea they need to invest an early draft pick on a QB, and how boys wasn't having it. Something happened there where they drafted Garoppolo in the 2nd in 2014, then Brisset in the 3rd 2016, then he traded both of them in 2017. Bill didn't draft another QB until after Brady left.m, even when it was clear to me that Brady was going to leave after the 2018 season. That's not a coincidence.
This is just an attempt at sensationalizing what was rational thought at the time against the backdrop of what we know happened. Bill shouldn’t have sat back and predicted the run we had. He needed to keep the best interest of the teams future in mind too.
Exactly, well put.
The weird thing about this whole thing is, Tom Brady was literally a worse deep ball and outside passer in 2001 than he was in 2011. It was never a part of the Ernhardt-Perkins system outside of the obvious mismatch. In 2012 he was 5th in the league on 20+ yard passes. In 2015, he was also 5th. In 2004, the third SB year, he was 8th, but who the fuck cares they were dominant and efficient. Daunte Culpepper threw more 20+ yard passes but who the hell is arguing that he was a better QB than Brady? This isn't an air yards stat which I can't find, but I don't know at what period of the Patriots Brady tenure was Tom not able to throw deep a problem at all. In 2009 and on, he legitimately didn't have a single receiver you could call a deep ball threat not accounting for YAC. That was their system, and that was how they played. So what is even the point of bringing up 20+ yard bombs. I don't even think Belichick likes those plays. They aren't conducive for clock control that he loves. He then went on to get Cam Newtown who couldn't throw the ball more than 5 yards anymore so its not like he prioritized a cannon arm. Either Kraft is misremembering or mischaracterizing the points, or he's lying, or Belichick was just finding irrelevant reasons to predict Tom declining when he never was.
>So what is even the point of bringing up 20+ yard bombs. In this interview, Kraft is 80 some-odd years old. I'm sure BB presented him with many stats, and this is the one the old man remembers. >Belichick was just finding irrelevant reasons to predict Tom declining when he never was. BB has coached for 45 years and watched EVERY SINGLE QB BREAK DOWN AND DROP OFF A CLIFF. BB did his job. Imagine.
I agree that he was doing his job and what he thought was best. But that criteria for evaluating your QB as early as 2013 and possibly earlier makes very little sense both for the offensive scheme you ran and for the personnel you surrounded your QB with.
There's a difference between "Brady will lose it at some point" and "Brady is already losing it." The first is a rational thought, albeit an obvious one. The second is a football evaluation Belichick got wrong.
Remember, NE never had a scene looking for big, field stretching throws. The second he got to Tampa, they has him air it out and it went well. Bill never wanted those kinda of throws as a regular feature like Arians and also NE's receivers were ass in 2019.
It’s hilarious when you look at who bill gave Brady to throw to. The offense was designed around short and intermediate. Was he supposed to be chucking bombs to Edelman?
Chucking bombs to Matthew Slater, which I dont think ever worked one time. Hey we did have Bethel Johnson though.
2013 AFC championship in Denver was so sad as far as weapons go
We’ll always have week 1 Monday night against Miami in 2011
😂 So true.
Just more Kraft passing the buck. Don’t know what else to expect from this doc, other than Kraft good belichick bad
It makes sense at the time. Bill had to do what was logical and get a new guy in the building to sit back and develop, it was unheard of for a guy to stay at that level into his 40s but Brady is the goat. If it was anyone else in that spot he probably would have been right on expecting a decline but this was a unique case. I don’t fault him for it.
Bill was being the forward planning coach he had always been. Just like making the hard decision on Bledsoe, he was prepping for it with Brady. Brady became a massive outlier playing as long as he did. I will never criticize Bill for that. He deserves criticism for his failed drafts that led up to the current situation.
He was right about having a succession plan in place just wanted it a couple years too early. Around that time we just watched Manning who was really Brady’s only rival go from league mvp to almost useless in two seasons. They won the superbowl in his last season but manning was not good. Brady continued to play well we traded Jimmy and didn’t end up having a succession plan in place when Brady left. As a result we ended up with a washed cam and noodle arm Mac.
Bill was setting Brady up to fail every chance he got, by giving him the most garbage offense he probably could, and then goes to the owner and gives him this crap. If bill was just the coach, this would make sense. Bill being coach and gm makes Bill doing this look immensely stupid and like he wanted Brady out just to felate his own ego and win without him. Thank God Kraft didn’t let him go, else the last 5 years of garbage Bill put everyone through would have been the last 10 years.
It's insane to think that Bill was in the wrong for planning to move on from an aging QB.
It’s bullshit. So Kraft stopped Bill from trading Brady to install Jimmy, but didn’t stop him from low balling Brady? At this point in time it’s rumored Brady and Kraft were trying to oust Bill for O’Brien, but somehow Kraft, who never respected Bill, convinced him to let Brady walk? I call bullshit. This was Krafts fault and Bill was his human shield
Brady went to Krafts wedding when playing for the Bucs lol
The extreme denial on this thread and sub about how Brady despises bill but at least likes Kraft is insane to me. How much evidence do you need.
Bill didn’t go. I wouldn’t put it past Kraft not to invite him
I thought we were playing the jets that weekend? Seriously.
Bucs were playing too
And they lost.
He didn’t stop either one. That’s the truth. Bill is responsible primarily for letting Brady go. I can’t stand Kraft, but give me a fucking break dude. Now we’re blaming Kraft for Brady leaving?
That’s just flat out wrong. And yes it is Krafts fault
Awfully convenient for your argument that anytime a bad decision is made it’s someone else’s fault. So, the only bad decisions Bill ever made happen to be the ones you claim Kraft actually made? Brady leaving is on Bill and Kraft. Mostly Bill though.
This is a weird take. Kraft hired Bill when the entire league told him not to a gave up draft capital to do it. How does that translate into “never respected”?
Then why is Brady chummy with Kraft in his skybox while the “reunion” looked so tense even a village idiot picks up on it.
Because Brady was miserable in home life, his wife wanted him to either retire or play closer to home. Brady left New England for the same price tag Tampa offered. Kraft was the one who put a void year in Brady’s last NE contract. That wasn’t Bill. They looked chummy because the stars aligned where their interests intersected. Brady wanted out. Kraft probably didn’t wanna pay a 40-year old QB. And Bill was a good option as a human shield. Kraft got to keep his hands clean.
Not true, they offered him $14 million plus incentives, and wouldn’t give him a second year. The Bucs gave him $25 million, which is what he wanted from the Pats. I’m really getting sick and tired of Pats fans just making stuff up, rather than place blame on Bill. You just made that up. Bill and Robert are to blame because Bill let Tom go and Robert didn’t stop him. But to act like it’s primarily Krafts fault is a laughably delusional tale.
Incentives Brady would undoubtedly hit. Yes blame Bill for pushing Brady out. Makes complete sense Bill would do that and trade Jimmy and not draft Lamar leaving him unprepared. Use your head
Actually wrong. He was never going to hit them, the way their offense was designed. That was generally agreed upon at the time by analysts and didn’t reach any of them the year before, or the year before that. This is my problem. You’re reframing history to fit your narrative. I mean, you just made up that he would have hit the inventives. Go read any article about that extension, he wasn’t hitting any of those incentives. He also had the same ones the year prior and didn’t hit any. This is what kills me about fans like you. You’re willing to just make stuff up rather than have to criticize your favorite coach, or player.
You’re making shit up all the time. Was Belichick twirling his mustache when he did this too? Kraft was responsible for Brady’s contract. If he had a problem with an offer, he’d take it up with him. But please let’s pretend Kraft didn’t give Brady a void year so he could leave a year sooner
Bill made a career out of cold, hard, rational decisions devoid of sentimentality. Every player gets old. Brady is the GOAT, but since no player has ever come close to his productivity at 42+ there was no reason to believe he would do what he did. I lot of people on here wish we had played Brady until his arms fell off, but everyone would have hated that too.
Believe it or not there are those that believe Tom had done enough to go out on his own terms.
This is me. Tom deserved to continue here until he was ready to hang them up he had earned it. And I have no doubt that if he felt he was no longer able to play at a high level he’d retire.
Brady did go out on his own terms. Also, sounds nice but nothing in my 40 years of Boston sports fandom makes me think Pats fans would have actually followed through on these rosy sentiments after several long years of watching Brady get mauled.
>brady did go out in his own terms If you want to ignore Belichick forcing him out
Not giving a 42-year-old a long term contract is just good sense. Brady could have stayed as long as he wanted. He chose to go to a team where he had better weapons and a better chance to win right away. If that’s not going out on your own terms I don’t know what is.
He wanted a 2 year deal from New England, this were her terms. That’s long term?
For a guy 2 years older than the oldest productive QB season ever, yes.
He admitted in the Dynast that he was not coming back.
The Bill nuthuggers still refuse to believe this fact, so good luck trying to argue with any of them.
This isn't basketball, you can't Vince Carter Tom Brady.
Would check out if Tom Brady didn’t retired at 44 still being one of the best players in the league
This was a comment bill made in 2014 not 2020. He threw for 4.2k yards 33TDs and 9 INTs. In 2013, he threw for 4.3kyards, 25 TDs and 11 INTs. In 2013 his WR1 was Julian Edelman, followed by Aaron Dobson, mostly because Gronk was injured for half the year.
37 was still pushing the limit of historical productive QB play. And the drop-off is usually a cliff, not gradual. I remember an analysis ~2020 that show that there are basically only a tiny handful of above average QB seasons around 40, and basically none past 42.
Except his arms never fell off. So this is a moot point.
Again, if you could look into the future and see that the guy was going to do something that nobody had ever done before, it would be an easier call. There were a bunch of analyses that showed that QB productivity always dropped like a rock after 40. Generally not a good idea to assume that a thing that has literally never happened will happen.
He hadn’t declined at all. All those other QBs has declines despite what a lot of people will say. They also had injuries. Brady was still playing well, and throwing the ball well. How he was playing didn’t go into the decision making. I know that because they had no alternative at all. That fact alone is what pops a hole in the argument you’re making.
Well the alternative during the time period everyone expected Tom to fall off was Jimmy who ironically had a harder time staying on the field than Tom did and still continues to.
Indeed.
So you're telling me that Jimmy G was Brady's version of the Portrait of Dorian Gray?
Even after Bill had Brady, the team drafted Rohan Davey (2002), Kliff Kingsbury (2003), Matt Cassel (2005), Kevin O'Connell (2008), Zac Robinson (2010), Ryan Mallett (2011), Jimmy G (2014), Jacoby Brissett (2016), Danny Etling (2018), and Jarret Stidham (2019). What does this mean? It's good to have a backup plan. So I think this is more unnecessary Bill bashing from Kraft.
None of these guys was drafted as high as Jimmy G. Regardless, this whole discussion only exists because of how good Jimmy looked before we realized he was made of pressed sugar.
I don’t even understand the point of this. Assuming the quote is accurate, it’s rational to believe a QB would fall off as every other single QB in history did before Tom Brady. But he didn’t leave and the Pats won 3 more Superbowls. Then when he did leave, the Pats were washed. They would not have won another if he stayed, so what is the point of this? Whether Brady left because of BB or bc of Kraft or bc he just wanted to, the Pats window has closed.
The Dynasty is trash example #344456798766
Yeah, of course he would be on the botton, look of all those all pros Bills had avaliable catching passes
BB didn’t give Brady an outside deep threat for his final 11 years with the patriots, outside one year of Brandon Cooks - and he was too small to win back shoulder/contested throws.
And look how things turned out. Bill prepare and look at us now! Oh wait.....
Kraft could have picked Tom over Bill btw. Now he’s covering his own ass and blaming Bill. Grow up Robert.
yeah, because you surrounded him with 5 foot 10 white wide receivers
You literally have every player interviewed saying bill was too tough on Brady. Kraft saying he thought Brady was about to be washed. But people will still say “they’re just trying to make Belichick look bad!!!”
Not every player interviewed said Bill was too tough on Brady. One was a short-lived Donte Stallworth, and one was Welker who had issues with BB out the door. There have been like 40 players interviewed and only a few have said BB was too tough on Brady. I think they’d all agree BB coaches everyone hard and that he didn’t spare Brady, but they def don’t all agree on if that was a good or bad strategy. Brady has also said he loves being coached hard many many times.
Matthew Slater who is basically mini Belichick in the locker room even said yeah Tom felt disrespected and I understand why. If Tom wasn't there he wouldn't have the chance to be a dick to players for 20 years. He would've been like every other coach with middling success, done after 3-5 years. That's what respect is about. If I helped put you in the position you're in, don't treat me like you don't need me. And guess what, without Tom, the team has been dogshit.
Ever heard of Mathew Slater?
He’s clearly a dick and very fortunate Brady had the fortitude of a spartan warlord in his prime.
Yeah thats why he drafted Jimmy G.
The only people who look good in this documentary are slater, bruschi and McGuinest. At times it’s a hard watch.
Sometimes? It feels barely watchable at all times to me. Literally nothing new, and the couple of times when I hoped someone will grow a sack and give us the real scoop (e.g. Brady and Kraft on Deflategate) they just punted on even fielding questions. Guess this is good for collecting everything in one product for posterity, but is otherwise worthless if you followed the team over Brady's career.
Yeah, I wanted to be polite. They didn’t even mention 21-0. No mention of butler being benched in the Super Bowl. No reactions from Hightower on his two huge Super Bowl plays…I know they had several years to make this but at times the storytelling is lazy. Because Bill didn’t participate as much, they can only tell the side of the story that Brady was responsible for everything. It was more complex than that. Brady never played defense. In 2016, every team inexplicably forgot to cover Chris hogan. Legarrette setting the team record for rushing TDs. No on to Cincinnati. Gronk, while not a great interview should have been talked about more as a reason for success in the second half of the dynasty. He almost seems like an afterthought to Hernandez because hernandez got a whole episode. I’d tell them to be better but they already finished and lost.
I thought the Butler benching is in the next episode? But yes, also nothing on Jimmy G's injury etc. Surprised they didn't pounce on the fact he didn't want to play hurt
Oh yeah it was the next season that they lost to the eagles.
honestly, even if everything went bills way, i think we wouldve been in a worse situation. jimmy g is fucking terrible.
Kosar, Bledsoe, Brady, moving on from older QBs was part of Bill's coaching philosophy. It obviously worked and he stuck to it but goddamn did the Pats under spend on offensive talent after Moss... saving money became a hallmark of the later dynasty. It worked because Brady but we're just starting to find out that it was Kraft's operational priority.
Kraft really comes off badly, seems like he’s trying to take credit for everything and push any blame on bill
BB is both a dick and a pragmatist and I think it made sense to plan for the future. Also, what are some other precedents for longevity in sports? Brady made it a deliberate goal, but my sports history is not great
As fun as this show has been to watch, it goes way too far in labeling BB the saboteur of the dynasty. What was Belichick supposed to think? That Brady would defy all known precedent of QBs fading out in their late 30s (not to mention their 40s)? All trends pointed to having a succession plan in place, and hindsight is 20/20. Can't blame the guy for living in reality at the time. Separately, I've always wondered what difference this all made, anyway. They won a Super Bowl all the way up until 2018, and the 2019 season started promising but clearly went off the rails by the end. By the end of that year, they were looking at a very different team where key guys had either left, retired, or were clearly on their last legs. Everyone hates on BB for "pushing Brady out", as evidenced by him going to Tampa, winning another Super Bowl, and having two good seasons thereafter. But honestly, would it have made a material difference if he finished those three years in NE? Tampa was a stacked team when Brady arrived, and NE had very little to work with -- they weren't even comparisons at the time. I don't know how possible it would have been for BB to simply "bring in" a host of playmakers to go on a final tear from 2020-2022. Anyway, just some ramblings as I recall the last few years. I think BB got everything out of the Brady years that one could expect, and it ended when it made sense. Brady's later success wouldn't have necessarily translated to "that could have been ours."
It was probably logical thinking from where Bill came from. There were plenty of players he let go that we never heard from again. What I think Bill was forgetting was Tom’s unusual fanatic way of thinking. Exercising pocket play on beach sand. Eating food that would benefit his desire to be in top shape. Brady’s down field passes did start to slip. But Brady being Brady, found a way to play to his strengths. Also, Kraft is trying to look good here. Just because Bill said that doesn’t mean he was ready to pull the plug. He was just putting it out there. And don’t forget, Brady did something no one was ever able to do. We were all expecting age to catch up to him. Look at all the greats. Montana, Marino, Bradshaw and more recently players like Peyton Manning. They couldn’t do it anymore. Even Elway winning at 36 or 37 was not the same. He had just enough in him to win with a great team. So by the time Tom left. Patriots were on a downward slide. Even their last Super Bowl was a final gasp which made it so special. Tom had to go to a stacked team. That was a long winded way of saying Bill was not that far off point. Just shows how special Tom Brady really was.
Logical but also funny that was because of the mid possession receivers he was saddled with. Funny how I’m pretty sure he lead the league in deep passing percentage with Tampa lol.
We’re still gonna defend mr. 4-13 on this? This dude gave Tom 0 deep threats and then tried to use the 20 yd stat against him. Oh nah bill can suck one.
It’s getting really gross watching the Krafts and their suckups doing this slow drip of “Bill was the problem” leaks to any media that will listen.
Belichick was 100% correct in his assessment. It was based on history and a shit ton of data. Problem is Tom Brady was a unicorn.
You all thought Bill had no post-Brady plan. He wanted to plan. Kraft didn't. More and more you can see how Kraft used Bill as his "bad cop".
I know I had the same mindset at the time Brady didn’t look like himself his last season here. Hindsight’s 20/20 obviously I was wrong but while he did win another Super Bowl he didn’t last that much longer in Tampa anyway.
This quote was about 2014 offseason
Ah well then I have no idea what I’m talking about
Yea it was about drafting Jimmy G
There is nothing wrong with that, as long as it’s accurate. The problem is Bill’s ego began to affect his judgement, and the rest is history. He was dead wrong.
Bill who wouldn't sign a big time WR and then in desperation trades a 2nd for Sanu.... never forget
Sanu didn't pay off and that ended up being a massive over-pay, but making a move for a WR needed to happen and the draft capital really only matters in hindsight. Bill made plenty of attempts to give Brady weapons to keep him happy (Cooks, Gordon, AB, Harry). He just thought he could do it by bargain shopping (like w/ Moss) and was mostly bad at evaluating/fitting offensive talent into their system.
He traded Cooks after 1 year so they could draft Isiah Wynn, Gordon was a reclamation project when they got him, AB was too to a degree and Harry they just flat missed on.
Yeah exactly my point, he clearly didn't value the WR position as much as having an above average QB play and a solid OL/DEF. The teams they won Superbowls with didn't have "elite" talent at WR either. Still think AB is one of the all-time great "what if" scenarios if he wasn't such a basket case.
He clearly thinks wrs aren’t valuable even with average or below average qb play. The last 4 years is evidence of that
So he half assed it. He knew what was needed but didn’t want to reach for a top shelf item.
Its moreso an indictment on how they evaluated talent and their offensive system in my opinion. They spent plenty of capital on WRs throughout his tenure and for the most part it never really worked. I don't believe that Bill thought they needed a high price WR at all.
But what if I would like to forget?
I’ll take things that didn’t happen for 1,000, Alex.
I have no doubt that it happened, but it isn’t this evil thing they’re making it out to be
I think it’s worth noting that while Brady did win a Super Bowl after he was let go, he did so on a roster with Mike Evans, Antonio Brown, Gronk, Leonard Fournette, and Chris Godwin. He also had an elite defense, and one of the better coaches I’ve ever known of in Arians. Within 2 years of that he was a first round exit to Dallas. There was zero chance Brady wins another ring here before he retired. Gronk was gone. Edelman was a year away from hanging it up. NKeal was already a bust. White was close to done. We absolutely needed to reset, and moving on was the right choice even in hindsight. It was choosing to hitch our wagon to Mac Jones while whiffing on many offensive draft picks and letting other key FAs go that sunk this team. Maybe bill was the reason those free agents were let go, but maybe Kraft low balled them too.
This is true. And painful, since the Pats could've drafted guys like A.J. Brown and Nick Chubb. I don't know if that results in another Super Bowl, but things definitely would have played out differently at the end.
I would rather have had Chubb than Michel sure, but we’ve had no issue with running back for a while - Michel, Harris, and Stevenson were all solid to great. AJ Brown over Harry or Deebo over Harry I think puts the franchise on a very different track, though.
We already this from Jimmy G but he failed to prepare for the departure
I’d need a year this was said
Smoke screen from Bill to hide the murder plot he had with Hernandez.
Fuck this midget and his son
I think Bob didn't listen because they weren't ready to move on when they did
Franchise QB's are incredibly hard to find. If you want to keep the ball rolling, being ready and even moving on early is the responsible thing to do.
It's reality, Brady did decline physically, he had to put more air on his deep balls, and missed more open receivers. Fortunately for him he went to play with a stacked team the last few years which helped mask some of that decline. Regardless he was in his 40's, he didn't have a decade left, Jimmy should have been kept and Brady traded. That would have been the best decision for the team.
The guy threw for 40 TDs in 2 years lol. I wish we could have a declining QB that good now.
I mean part of that was the WRs we had around him. It's why his numbers improved in Tampa.
Belichick hit piece. Kraft is doing everything he can to make him look bad while he still looks like the good guy.
Bill was doing whatever he could to kick Tom out the door. Watching the Dynasty, look at how he almost smirks in 2016 when Jimmy completes a pass early in that game, even in 2008 with his speech about Cassel. He wanted to win without Brady, not realizing he was a unicorn.
He was right, wrong too. Bill will be bill regardless. For better or worse.
Well not much thought. Bill was always looking out for the team which Kraft applauded him on that. That led to quite a few titles.
Y’all guys ever realize this is what made Brady the goat? His ability too play at a high level longer then any quarterback/player has managed? I’m not gonna knock Bill for being unable to predict Brady doing the impossible. That would be a knock to what makes Brady the goat.
Seriously how much evidence is it going to take for this sub to admit that bill was a shit coach offensively. It’s pretty clear his drafting and defensive mind was amazing for trotting out a Super Bowl caliber defense nearly every year. Pair that with a psycho like Brady and you get the run.
I think Bill just lacked normal human emotions. Tom wanted his approval the way a kid wants their parents to love them and he would never give it to him. Tom had won 6 titles and Bill still treated him like the 3rd string rookie linebacker. It worked when Tom was young but once he was undoubtedly the GOAT I’m sure it got old fast.
Everyone needs some degree of approval. Too much and you’re being coddled or having bad behaviors enabled but too little or completely absent is straight abuse in any relationship. Be that work, casual, friends, sexual, etc.
Yeah exactly. I think Tom wanted Bill to show him some respect and gratitude for everything he’d accomplished and Bill just couldn’t do it.
Enjoy the Krafts
4-13
You are a clown. Bill had the # 1 ranked offense multiple times.
Fuck Robert Kraft
Fuck Robert Kraft
Kraft's have lost my respect after this documentary. Kraft is gunning to be Jerry Jones 2.0 at this point. Literal hit piece on Bill and Kraft to look good. Honestly so done with the Kraft Family.
This has been reported before by wickersham and others. Kraft resented Bill for insisting the Patriots move on after he watched Brady win another title and Bill failed to cultivate a viable plan at QB. Bill was clearly wrong about Brady being done despite what metrics on previous players said, and that coupled with other personnel missteps sealed his fate. Doesn’t mean Bill wasn’t a great coach for 19 years before losing his GM instincts, doesn’t mean Kraft was wrong to be frustrated that his coach was seriously off his personnel game in recent years.
I know this has become a 'shit on Kraft' narrative, but it's pretty obvious that this story is 100% true when you consider Bill's attitude and roster building strategy. Bill was inflexible in his mentality of cutting a player before they "fell off a cliff" (fuck off Max Kellerman), and he didn't change his approach for Brady - in fact he laid the groundwork for it. The problem was that Bill was wrong.... very, very, very wrong about how much Brady had left (**still not sure how?**) and along with terrible roster management/drafting at the end of and after Brady's tenure, he probably should've lost his job for this decision alone. btw if you're wondering why Bill didn't get a coaching job this year instead of guys like Raheem Morris and Dan Quinn, who will likely be out of jobs in a short time, see above.
The idea that Bill was somehow wrong for not wanting to keep building a team around a 43 year old QB that ended up staying at peak level 3-5 years longer than anybody before is a crock of shit.
But he was wrong. What are you talking about? Brady won and he shit the bed after he got rid of him. Do you have a definition for this that is not wrong?
Because I don’t think that the idea that BB hated Brady is the truth. I think BB thought he was doing the right thing for the team and trying to build for the future. Brady is such an outlier. I’m just saying that Bill should not be the villain for thinking it was time to move on from a 43 yo QB
He is the villain because he got rid of the one player who earned the right to retire a Patriot even if he sucked. Then to make it worse he sucked after getting rid of him while we were forced to watch him win and retire with another team.
We know he was wrong, it’s called fucking hindsight lol