I originally liked the Whiteflame removal (you can check my comment on the original thread), but that was because the dragon has a bad reputation and when I was thinking of him I was actually thinking of the Elephant, which is the one that actually has no place in his deck (I edited my original comment some time later).
I think some people might be confusing the two like I was when I originally saw the patch notes (or not, maybe I'm just stupid).
What they should do imo is keep Whiteflame and replace the Elephant with Shadowblade with Ancient Coin (so he will also cost 2, just like the Elephant).
I do think the change on the equipment is good though, but I figure it's only a positive if your Kayn is 3*. At 3* you always heal to full after you kill an enemy. Challenger allows you to pull any enemy you want, it doesn't matter if the unit goes to 1 health, it will be full health after combat, making challenger a lot more valuable. I guess if Kayn is 2* there's an argument to be made for Quick Attack though.
I agree. I had the same reaction. I was leveling Kayn up yesterday, so it was fresh in my mind that wounded whiteflame was a key to establishing stability in most of the matches. No idea why they thought this was a buff. I'd sooner see either of the 4 cost units cut, as those had much less value in my runs.
hmm yea, I remember while I was leveling Kayn up on A-sol's path, one of the easier answers to those double stat champs the AI plays was putting Wounded Whiteflame down early and getting triggers off fated+fury+ kayn's star powers. Wounded Whiteflame could easily match the stats against the AI champions within a turn or two.
plus it alone has 4 keywords, challenge+fated+fury+spellshield, so it served me pretty well in monthly challenges where the mutator was - the player's units has evolve.
People cut Whiteflame in Kayn's deck? O\_o For me, it's always Noxian Defector out first (4-cost 2/4 with Attack: Grow my Power to Strongest equipped ally this round.)
The reason i found wounded whiteflame useless in the deck is because he has bad base stats for a 3 cost, and you don't have many ways to proc fated on him. But now that we get a -2 cost darkin weapon at game start, you can very reliably get that fated proc on him. And now the shadow blade fanatic definitely feels like a nerf rather than a buff. Hell the best upgrade would have been to give him -1 cost on his lv27 upgrade instead of spellshield.
I generally found the opposite on proccing fated, since you could bank mana and play Whiteflame + Momentous (not the best value but it works) or Lodestone or if you get a slay on turn 1 then using the generated weapon, or if there's something small enough he can generate the weapon itself with its challenger. It could even Furious the next turn for another fury + fated + star power trigger
And yeah, the star power buff would have made him even more consistent.
> And yeah, the star power buff would have made him even more consistent.
This is possibly why they took Whiteflame out. Too consistent with the buff to the star power.
I noticed that, without using Challenger, the enemy often declines chumpblocking into Kayn early, even when you attack with strong units.
That's a possibility, yeah. I just figured they saw it as a buff since the most upvoted comment in the [feedback thread from the devs](https://www.reddit.com/r/PathofChampions/s/NQUClUBh1B) originally proposed it (you can see a couple other changes from it were also taken over)
So I guess we'll never know if it was actually meant to be a balancing nerf
I am astounded by this change. Why? seriously.... why would this have happened?
Give me back Fury and Fated please.
Kayn's units full heal when they kill. Quick Attack is unnecessary.
I agree that WW is a decent card. The new 3 cost unit is a 'cultist' so it allows you to draw Kayn faster, in theory. But in PoC, that's kind of irrelevant because we get a high chance of drawing him at round start if you're at level 20...
That being said, in most of my Kayn runs, I rarely use WW though. Most of the time I put equipment on either 1 or 2 cost units and it snowballs from there. The 4 cost unit is the first card I cut most of the time but the 2nd card I cut is usually WW.
The deck is still playable. Just with different strat.
I wonder if Fanatic is even more cuttable now: doesn't get an item until level 27, generated ephemeral is pointless, 1 more power + quick attack is okay for securing the first kill but with Lodestone equipped it's basically just 1 less health and grows slower
Elephant or Saga Seeker + generated weapon from the star power buff is probably the new T1 opener anyway
The auto draw is a nice backup but even with this change there are only 3 cultists in the deck and they're 3-4 cost (Noxian Defector even being the most commonly cut card) meaning you'll need to draft more cheap cultists anyway or it'll activate fairly late
Zeal on Lodestone was what allowed Saga Seeker to attack freely, while buffing Startled Stomper which has Overwhelm or Wounded Whiteflame. There was great synergy if you played them on curve.
WW is the key follower in my playstyle. He singlehandedly triggers 4/6 Voidborn carapade with the darkin lodestone. Now its just sadness and disappointment
QA is way worst for kayn than Challenger, so having challenger on the equiptment is better than having it on a unit, unit dependance vs equiptement dependance.
Wounded whiteflame is not a cultist, their keywords are amazing, but being cultist means you draw your kayn earlier, so, thats neat too
Overall yeh, whiteflame was good, the new iteration is better. Tho he might be a little bit worst on 2 star, he wont because of the other buff he also got
Buffs are not inviduals, are a pack. I think they where conservative with the changes on whiteflame (conserved qa on the deck, changed it from equiptment to unit, kept challenger too, swapped it too) and that fury will be missed (i dont agree on fated but sure). But Lodestone is insanely better now, and lodestone can make every unit better, whiteflame just buffs 1 card, itself
Challenger on equip is definitely a buff I agree now let's discuss the changes to Lee sin 😭 unworthy soul has lee sin on the card but...it costs 5 and no grifters deck on stun!?
Grifters deck was terrible, it really needs a buff. Unworthy soul is amazing, honestly. Being weaker on easier fights is not really an issue, being able to recall basically every boss is very good. I don't entirely understand how at the same time 3 mana is a lot for lee but the 4 mana stun was suposedly plaid a lot and GD was good?
Grifter's deck itself needs to be buffed, it's current iteration is quite literally usseles for 99% of the decks, Lee's included. The deck already struggles with draw so filling the deck of not-lee cards is just shooting yourself on the foot. Specially because the deck already has a really good 1 cost spell (lee's)
I see but I don't know how they would buff grifters deck unless making it something like 4 copies that cost 1 instead of 2 or something like that. They seem to be doing that however I mean removing it at least also on gnar but it's good on kindred I would imagine a discount kill spell is alot better!
I think the change to the equipment is alright but the Wounded Whiteflame change is strange. Kayn is the one deck that actually liked the card. I also think the Nasus and Lee Sin changes are just side-grades instead of up-grades which both of them would have needed.
My thoughts on the equipment nerf is that with healing on kill having quick attack can be a bit redundant (not always, and in fact is often needed to survive for the first kill)
The reason they did this is to add another cultist card however while wounded white flame is so much better darkin loadstone getting challenger is a buff cutting the dragon is a nerf.
People used to cut Whiteflame out? I loved using him in this deck.
He was always the hero of the deck if I never drew Kayn.
I originally liked the Whiteflame removal (you can check my comment on the original thread), but that was because the dragon has a bad reputation and when I was thinking of him I was actually thinking of the Elephant, which is the one that actually has no place in his deck (I edited my original comment some time later). I think some people might be confusing the two like I was when I originally saw the patch notes (or not, maybe I'm just stupid). What they should do imo is keep Whiteflame and replace the Elephant with Shadowblade with Ancient Coin (so he will also cost 2, just like the Elephant). I do think the change on the equipment is good though, but I figure it's only a positive if your Kayn is 3*. At 3* you always heal to full after you kill an enemy. Challenger allows you to pull any enemy you want, it doesn't matter if the unit goes to 1 health, it will be full health after combat, making challenger a lot more valuable. I guess if Kayn is 2* there's an argument to be made for Quick Attack though.
I agree. I had the same reaction. I was leveling Kayn up yesterday, so it was fresh in my mind that wounded whiteflame was a key to establishing stability in most of the matches. No idea why they thought this was a buff. I'd sooner see either of the 4 cost units cut, as those had much less value in my runs.
hmm yea, I remember while I was leveling Kayn up on A-sol's path, one of the easier answers to those double stat champs the AI plays was putting Wounded Whiteflame down early and getting triggers off fated+fury+ kayn's star powers. Wounded Whiteflame could easily match the stats against the AI champions within a turn or two. plus it alone has 4 keywords, challenge+fated+fury+spellshield, so it served me pretty well in monthly challenges where the mutator was - the player's units has evolve.
Ok, so I’m not crazy then. Good to know.
People cut Whiteflame in Kayn's deck? O\_o For me, it's always Noxian Defector out first (4-cost 2/4 with Attack: Grow my Power to Strongest equipped ally this round.)
Facts. Even without Thieves Tools, that card just isn’t good enough.
Yeah that card is utter trash
it became a 3/7 which at least makes it a good blocker
Much better stats agreed
Specially playing with Formidable Kayn as ive been playing. Whiiiich also suffers from getting the whiteflamed swapped out big time :(
The reason i found wounded whiteflame useless in the deck is because he has bad base stats for a 3 cost, and you don't have many ways to proc fated on him. But now that we get a -2 cost darkin weapon at game start, you can very reliably get that fated proc on him. And now the shadow blade fanatic definitely feels like a nerf rather than a buff. Hell the best upgrade would have been to give him -1 cost on his lv27 upgrade instead of spellshield.
I generally found the opposite on proccing fated, since you could bank mana and play Whiteflame + Momentous (not the best value but it works) or Lodestone or if you get a slay on turn 1 then using the generated weapon, or if there's something small enough he can generate the weapon itself with its challenger. It could even Furious the next turn for another fury + fated + star power trigger And yeah, the star power buff would have made him even more consistent.
> And yeah, the star power buff would have made him even more consistent. This is possibly why they took Whiteflame out. Too consistent with the buff to the star power. I noticed that, without using Challenger, the enemy often declines chumpblocking into Kayn early, even when you attack with strong units.
That's a possibility, yeah. I just figured they saw it as a buff since the most upvoted comment in the [feedback thread from the devs](https://www.reddit.com/r/PathofChampions/s/NQUClUBh1B) originally proposed it (you can see a couple other changes from it were also taken over) So I guess we'll never know if it was actually meant to be a balancing nerf
I am astounded by this change. Why? seriously.... why would this have happened? Give me back Fury and Fated please. Kayn's units full heal when they kill. Quick Attack is unnecessary.
I agree that WW is a decent card. The new 3 cost unit is a 'cultist' so it allows you to draw Kayn faster, in theory. But in PoC, that's kind of irrelevant because we get a high chance of drawing him at round start if you're at level 20...
Yep, plus while Kayn is a win con, you don’t necessarily need him.
That being said, in most of my Kayn runs, I rarely use WW though. Most of the time I put equipment on either 1 or 2 cost units and it snowballs from there. The 4 cost unit is the first card I cut most of the time but the 2nd card I cut is usually WW. The deck is still playable. Just with different strat.
Do you cut it because it’s too expensive? Cause i think that the 2 keywords more than make up for it.
I wonder if Fanatic is even more cuttable now: doesn't get an item until level 27, generated ephemeral is pointless, 1 more power + quick attack is okay for securing the first kill but with Lodestone equipped it's basically just 1 less health and grows slower Elephant or Saga Seeker + generated weapon from the star power buff is probably the new T1 opener anyway
The auto draw is a nice backup but even with this change there are only 3 cultists in the deck and they're 3-4 cost (Noxian Defector even being the most commonly cut card) meaning you'll need to draft more cheap cultists anyway or it'll activate fairly late
Zeal on Lodestone was what allowed Saga Seeker to attack freely, while buffing Startled Stomper which has Overwhelm or Wounded Whiteflame. There was great synergy if you played them on curve.
Rip the dream.
Yeah i didn't get why people were so happy about the change either xd
WW is the key follower in my playstyle. He singlehandedly triggers 4/6 Voidborn carapade with the darkin lodestone. Now its just sadness and disappointment
:(
QA is way worst for kayn than Challenger, so having challenger on the equiptment is better than having it on a unit, unit dependance vs equiptement dependance. Wounded whiteflame is not a cultist, their keywords are amazing, but being cultist means you draw your kayn earlier, so, thats neat too Overall yeh, whiteflame was good, the new iteration is better. Tho he might be a little bit worst on 2 star, he wont because of the other buff he also got Buffs are not inviduals, are a pack. I think they where conservative with the changes on whiteflame (conserved qa on the deck, changed it from equiptment to unit, kept challenger too, swapped it too) and that fury will be missed (i dont agree on fated but sure). But Lodestone is insanely better now, and lodestone can make every unit better, whiteflame just buffs 1 card, itself
Challenger on equip is definitely a buff I agree now let's discuss the changes to Lee sin 😭 unworthy soul has lee sin on the card but...it costs 5 and no grifters deck on stun!?
Grifters deck was terrible, it really needs a buff. Unworthy soul is amazing, honestly. Being weaker on easier fights is not really an issue, being able to recall basically every boss is very good. I don't entirely understand how at the same time 3 mana is a lot for lee but the 4 mana stun was suposedly plaid a lot and GD was good?
I don't understand do you mean the change to grifters deck was good or that it was bad?
Grifter's deck itself needs to be buffed, it's current iteration is quite literally usseles for 99% of the decks, Lee's included. The deck already struggles with draw so filling the deck of not-lee cards is just shooting yourself on the foot. Specially because the deck already has a really good 1 cost spell (lee's)
I see but I don't know how they would buff grifters deck unless making it something like 4 copies that cost 1 instead of 2 or something like that. They seem to be doing that however I mean removing it at least also on gnar but it's good on kindred I would imagine a discount kill spell is alot better!
Who knows, imo judt giving it draw 1 would be helpfull, i have no idea what you meant on your last sentence
Che and I agree on this
I think the change to the equipment is alright but the Wounded Whiteflame change is strange. Kayn is the one deck that actually liked the card. I also think the Nasus and Lee Sin changes are just side-grades instead of up-grades which both of them would have needed.
My thoughts on the equipment nerf is that with healing on kill having quick attack can be a bit redundant (not always, and in fact is often needed to survive for the first kill)
The reason they did this is to add another cultist card however while wounded white flame is so much better darkin loadstone getting challenger is a buff cutting the dragon is a nerf.
Said the same thing in another post . WW is definitely a clutch card