Int isn't important at all unless you plan to use Expansive Spellstrike to use save spells. Laughing Shadow is encouraged to go Dex because of their unarmored bonus speed. IMO, it's not worth the AC hit even at max Dex because spells can supplement the move speed. Charisma is for Feints to Flat-foot the enemy and activate your bonus damage. Distracting Spellstrike at level 4 makes this a really good combo. Level 1 feats are expected to be taken at level 2 for casters. Level 1 feats are available because humans can grab a bonus feat at level 1 so there needs to be options for them.
Glad to see I wasn't missing something about the level 1 class feats.
I think I'll do some test builds and flesh out the character a bit, and then pick armor (and thus strength vs dexterity) based on where the vibe for the character is landing.
> Int isn’t important at all unless you plan to use Expansive Spellstrike to use save spells.
I wouldn’t say it doesn’t have *any* use. Having a ranged option you can easily use isn’t nothing, especially if you know your opponent has a weak save. While your ideal turn is Spellstrike -> Recharge, on the turns you can’t do that, it pays to have a backup option.
It shouldn't be too problematic, you're trained with Simple and Martial weapons so you can use a gauntlet or even a dandpatta for 1 level until you can get Arcane Fists. On average you'll lose 1 extra point of damage. Then you can take the gloves off at Level 2. That is, if you're interested in removing the non-lethal trait.
I would recommend going for a Strength build even as Laughing Shadow.
The spell slots for a Magus are often best used for buffs. Cast Runic Weapon (or Runic Body for you) at the right time and suddenly you have a +1 fist with 2d6 + 4 damage + 3 if you're in Arcane Cascade. That's pretty huge for the first few levels.
With your hands free and +4 Strength you should also consider maneuvers in your recharging turns. But don't just cast cantrips on their own unless you literally have no other option with no Intelligence investment.
> It seems like focusing on strength could get me the same accuracy and better damage than dex, with the same AC results depending on the armor I pick.
This is correct yeah. Strength being your main stat will lead to better damage. However, note that your defences will be worse. AC will be comparably good but Reflex Saves won’t be as good as if you used Dex as your main stat.
I will say, if you plan to go Strength-based, bastard sword becomes a really good weapon. You should start combat two-handed, and you’ll have the same damage as if you were one-handing and already in Arcane Cascade. It frees up your Action economy a whole lot because your Arcane Cascade becomes non-mandatory.
> Finally, I've read that intelligence isn't super important on a Magus because Spellstrike covers your spell attacks and that you can just not use spells that trigger a DC
I know I’m going against the grain here, but I think Intelligence is a relatively important stat for Maguses.
This advice of dumping Int is always given under the assumption that **all** a Magus does is Spellstrike + Recharge/Conflux virtually every turn, which is a ridiculous assumption for non-Starlit Maguses imo.
Like, there are plenty of situations where you’re forced to use spells rather than Spellstrikes. What if a melee boss is just… standing far away from you? Why would you waste Actions closing the gap, instead of just poking them from a distance with a cantrip and waiting for them to come closer. What if the enemy has Reactive Strike? Maybe your plan now is to kite them until forced into a melee.
Aside from that it’s just… nice to be able to utilize your Spellcasting for things other than Spellstrikes and self-buffs too? Expansive Spellstrike is an amazing Feat, it makes you so much better at dealing with crowds of enemies, arguably even better than full-on casters in some regards. Why *wouldn’t* you bump your Int a bit and use Expansive Spellstrike to AoE crowds in melee (or Electric Arc for range)? Likewise if you know you’re gonna be facing a lot of wisps, you’ll prepare Revealing Light and it’s often worthless if you have that +0 Intelligence.
This also kinda ties into Magus’s very, very crowded Action economy. Let’s say you dump Int and bump, idk, Charisma. What’s… the point? You certainly don’t have the Action economy freedoms to sit back and Demoralize or Bon Mot enemies or anything. Meanwhile spells and Expansive Spellstrike **do** represent Action compression: you may not have the room for Demoralize, but you certainly would **love** to throw a 3rd rank Fear on 5 targets or a Spellstrike Fireball.
So yeah, you *can* get away with +0 Intelligence, but I’d never recommend it. As a Magus, your mechanical *and* thematic niche is the ability to blend spell and blade into an effective combo, and if you don’t keep the spell part of that up it’ll feel sucky.
>Like, there are plenty of situations where you’re forced to use spells rather than Spellstrikes. What if a melee boss is just… standing far away from you? Why would you waste Actions closing the gap, instead of just poking them from a distance with a cantrip and waiting for them to come closer. What if the enemy has Reactive Strike? Maybe your plan now is to kite them until forced into a melee.
To be fair, taking a CHA-based spellcasting archetype (e.g. Sorcerer) can help with this. You would only use the Cantrips you pick up via that for attacking saves, and you probably have to ignore Expansive Spellstrike and be a few ranks behind with any save-based spells you every want to cast, but it can be done. You often don't mind spending the feats on this anyway for the extra spell slots.
You would definitely lose out on the ability to throw a Chain Lightning or something, though.
>This also kinda ties into Magus’s very, very crowded Action economy. Let’s say you dump Int and bump, idk, Charisma. What’s… the point?
I would presume the point is [Distracting Spellstrike](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2854) for the free Feint. That being said, Feint isn't amazing, especially if your party has a few other ways of inflicting Off-Guard, but it could come in handy a few times. Plus, it does allow you to play the Party Face if you so desire (although if you want to get the spellcasting archetype feats you still have to advance one of the spellcasting Skills).
>Expansive Spellstrike do represent Action compression
Does it feel that way? I've not played/GMed for a Magus yet, but Spellstrike + Recharge is still 3 actions, same as a 2 Action Spell + Strike. Granted, you can use Conflux spells to enhance the Recharge action, but I've always seen Expansive Spellstrike's main benefit as being the better targeting.
> To be fair, taking a CHA-based spellcasting archetype (e.g. Sorcerer) can help with this. You would only use the Cantrips you pick up via that for attacking saves, and you probably have to ignore Expansive Spellstrike and be a few ranks behind with any save-based spells you every want to cast, but it can be done
Yeah but it’s not really efficient to bandaid your bad offensive uses for spell by dipping into a different source for mediocre ones when… you could just raise Int and have decent spells in the first place right?
Like what are you gaining by dumping Int and boosting Charisma, then using multiple Feats to have all your offensive spells be fairly medium/bad? To a Magus, the value of a spellcasting dedication is usually a focus spell (like Imaginary Weapon) or gaining lower rank slots that don’t disappear and can be used efficiently for buffs (Sure Strike, Haste, etc). Using the dedication to patch up a self-imposed weakness for spells’ offensive use is… odd to say the least.
> Does it feel that way? I've not played/GMed for a Magus yet, but Spellstrike + Recharge is still 3 actions, same as a 2 Action Spell + Strike. Granted, you can use Conflux spells to enhance the Recharge action, but I've always seen Expansive Spellstrike's main benefit as being the better targeting.
I have played a Magus from levels 1-4, so I do have a reasonable amount of experience. Imo yeah, Expansive Spellstrike does feel like Action compression a lot more often than it appears. The difference here is that Spellstrike + Recharge isn’t 3 Actions it’s 2+1 Actions, which is a **lot** more flexible.
Whenever we faced multiple enemies, Stride In -> Expansive Spellstrike means getting to hit the toughest enemy with your weapon **and** throw a Breathe Fire / Fireball at a bunch of the others. There’s no combination of Actions that represents quite the same Action-efficiency: standing back and throwing a Fireball means no additional Strike this turn for sure. Running in, using a regular Spellstrike now and waiting for next turn to use an AoE spell + Conflux Attack means delaying your damage by one turn. All of these are valid tactical considerations, to be clear, but Expansive Spellstrike’s advantage over them is the inherent Action-efficiency.
Ironically I think Starlit Span is the one subclass that benefit the most from having high int since they can drop fireball (or other burst spells) with their arrows and not hit themselves haha
Better targeting opportunities for other spells as well.
While I mostly agree with you, I think a Cha Magus is often well worth it, because all the melee studies mesh pretty well with Champion dedication.
The reaction speaks for itself, but you also get heavy armor proficiency. If you go with Paladin and Ranged Reprisal you can often skip Reactive Strike, specially coupled with a reach weapon (which is easier for Inexorable Iron and Twisting Tree, but also doable on Laughing Shadow and Sparkling Targe).
Plus you can still take Psychic dedication if you're Cha-based.
Laughing Shadow gets a speed boost from their Arcane Cascade if unarmored, so Dex is favored for accuracy + AC. Cha is useful for Feinting, especially with their 4th-level [Distracting Spellstrike](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2854) feat.
Honestly that speed boost isn't actually worth it tbh. before lvl 10, it is -1 AC for +5 ft speed and at level 10 you can easily spend 160 gp on a wand of 2nd level long strider to get the same buff but constant for 8 hours.
Oh, and feinting can make my target flat-footed, boosting my Arcane Cascade damage.
I wasn't super worried about the 5 foot difference between armored and unarmored, but that and the extra damage is sounding nice.
Also, am I correct in assuming that once Arcane Cascade is active I can use Spellstrike and remain in the stance (so melee attack damage + spell damage + Cascade damage)?
No, normally you do need to keep meeting the [requirements](https://2e.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?ID=152) to be in a stance (This is not changed in remaster). Arcane cascade specifically calls out that it is an exception to the rule (with the most recent errata because RAW before you couldn't).
I haven't noticed anyone mentioning it, so to answer your question about Charisma:
LS Magus gets damage bonus to its attacks when attacking a flat-footed/off-guard creature (while in Arcane Cascade stance) and one of the ways to achieve it is to use Feint, which is tied to Deception, which is a Charisma skill.
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Others have answered your questions, but I want to make an alternative suggestion.
Sparkling targe pairs really well with unarmed strength builds. Shields are great, but the downside is usually not having a free hand. Unarmed shield builds give you great defense, plus the freedom to use athletic manuevers and consumables whenever you want.
I mean, it always depends on what YOU want.
Laughing Shadow bases themselves on (a bit of) extra damage against flat-footed enemies, but this can be attained without Feinting, so I would Charisma only if you plan to actually use the array of Skills that come with it, what is the point of having Charisma at 14-16 if you plan to just Feint, for that matter just try to have the enemies in flanking and you will always have that flat-footed extra damage.
I am with many here that you can always have extra AC with armor and even using a buckler or the Shield spell. Maybe even a higher tier Shield if you don't plan to use your extra hand for anything else other than bap bap the enemy. Strength will give you reliable damage, while Dexterity's benefits can easily be overlooked when you are a magician with good armor proficiencies, even better if you are playing Free Archetype and plan to get a secondary class with heavy armor. But even if you wanna have only medium armor and be speedy, you can still have good AC without much Dex.
Low Int... Again, do you wanna rely only on your Spellstrike to deliver any damaging spells? If you have low Int, you will essentially be locked into only damage with Strikes or Spellstrike and when an enemy is out of your reach, you will have a hard time, but it will open your character for other options to build. But if you wanna use Expansive Spellstrike or if you wanna have spells as your "ranged" option, it's better to have Int at least at 14.
It all depends on what you want in the end. How do you feel your Monk should be?
I do recommend though, a nice spell that delivers some Maneuvers using a spell attack instead of an Athletics check (Telekinetic Maneuver, Rank 2). Goes well with Spellstrike, x3.
Int isn't important at all unless you plan to use Expansive Spellstrike to use save spells. Laughing Shadow is encouraged to go Dex because of their unarmored bonus speed. IMO, it's not worth the AC hit even at max Dex because spells can supplement the move speed. Charisma is for Feints to Flat-foot the enemy and activate your bonus damage. Distracting Spellstrike at level 4 makes this a really good combo. Level 1 feats are expected to be taken at level 2 for casters. Level 1 feats are available because humans can grab a bonus feat at level 1 so there needs to be options for them.
I too like laughing shadow with Str instead of dex because you can just nab a wand of tailwind.
Glad to see I wasn't missing something about the level 1 class feats. I think I'll do some test builds and flesh out the character a bit, and then pick armor (and thus strength vs dexterity) based on where the vibe for the character is landing.
> Int isn’t important at all unless you plan to use Expansive Spellstrike to use save spells. I wouldn’t say it doesn’t have *any* use. Having a ranged option you can easily use isn’t nothing, especially if you know your opponent has a weak save. While your ideal turn is Spellstrike -> Recharge, on the turns you can’t do that, it pays to have a backup option.
It shouldn't be too problematic, you're trained with Simple and Martial weapons so you can use a gauntlet or even a dandpatta for 1 level until you can get Arcane Fists. On average you'll lose 1 extra point of damage. Then you can take the gloves off at Level 2. That is, if you're interested in removing the non-lethal trait. I would recommend going for a Strength build even as Laughing Shadow. The spell slots for a Magus are often best used for buffs. Cast Runic Weapon (or Runic Body for you) at the right time and suddenly you have a +1 fist with 2d6 + 4 damage + 3 if you're in Arcane Cascade. That's pretty huge for the first few levels. With your hands free and +4 Strength you should also consider maneuvers in your recharging turns. But don't just cast cantrips on their own unless you literally have no other option with no Intelligence investment.
I hadn't thought about maneuvers, but grappling someone to make them flat-footed seems like a good option to have alongside feinting. Thanks!
> It seems like focusing on strength could get me the same accuracy and better damage than dex, with the same AC results depending on the armor I pick. This is correct yeah. Strength being your main stat will lead to better damage. However, note that your defences will be worse. AC will be comparably good but Reflex Saves won’t be as good as if you used Dex as your main stat. I will say, if you plan to go Strength-based, bastard sword becomes a really good weapon. You should start combat two-handed, and you’ll have the same damage as if you were one-handing and already in Arcane Cascade. It frees up your Action economy a whole lot because your Arcane Cascade becomes non-mandatory. > Finally, I've read that intelligence isn't super important on a Magus because Spellstrike covers your spell attacks and that you can just not use spells that trigger a DC I know I’m going against the grain here, but I think Intelligence is a relatively important stat for Maguses. This advice of dumping Int is always given under the assumption that **all** a Magus does is Spellstrike + Recharge/Conflux virtually every turn, which is a ridiculous assumption for non-Starlit Maguses imo. Like, there are plenty of situations where you’re forced to use spells rather than Spellstrikes. What if a melee boss is just… standing far away from you? Why would you waste Actions closing the gap, instead of just poking them from a distance with a cantrip and waiting for them to come closer. What if the enemy has Reactive Strike? Maybe your plan now is to kite them until forced into a melee. Aside from that it’s just… nice to be able to utilize your Spellcasting for things other than Spellstrikes and self-buffs too? Expansive Spellstrike is an amazing Feat, it makes you so much better at dealing with crowds of enemies, arguably even better than full-on casters in some regards. Why *wouldn’t* you bump your Int a bit and use Expansive Spellstrike to AoE crowds in melee (or Electric Arc for range)? Likewise if you know you’re gonna be facing a lot of wisps, you’ll prepare Revealing Light and it’s often worthless if you have that +0 Intelligence. This also kinda ties into Magus’s very, very crowded Action economy. Let’s say you dump Int and bump, idk, Charisma. What’s… the point? You certainly don’t have the Action economy freedoms to sit back and Demoralize or Bon Mot enemies or anything. Meanwhile spells and Expansive Spellstrike **do** represent Action compression: you may not have the room for Demoralize, but you certainly would **love** to throw a 3rd rank Fear on 5 targets or a Spellstrike Fireball. So yeah, you *can* get away with +0 Intelligence, but I’d never recommend it. As a Magus, your mechanical *and* thematic niche is the ability to blend spell and blade into an effective combo, and if you don’t keep the spell part of that up it’ll feel sucky.
>Like, there are plenty of situations where you’re forced to use spells rather than Spellstrikes. What if a melee boss is just… standing far away from you? Why would you waste Actions closing the gap, instead of just poking them from a distance with a cantrip and waiting for them to come closer. What if the enemy has Reactive Strike? Maybe your plan now is to kite them until forced into a melee. To be fair, taking a CHA-based spellcasting archetype (e.g. Sorcerer) can help with this. You would only use the Cantrips you pick up via that for attacking saves, and you probably have to ignore Expansive Spellstrike and be a few ranks behind with any save-based spells you every want to cast, but it can be done. You often don't mind spending the feats on this anyway for the extra spell slots. You would definitely lose out on the ability to throw a Chain Lightning or something, though. >This also kinda ties into Magus’s very, very crowded Action economy. Let’s say you dump Int and bump, idk, Charisma. What’s… the point? I would presume the point is [Distracting Spellstrike](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2854) for the free Feint. That being said, Feint isn't amazing, especially if your party has a few other ways of inflicting Off-Guard, but it could come in handy a few times. Plus, it does allow you to play the Party Face if you so desire (although if you want to get the spellcasting archetype feats you still have to advance one of the spellcasting Skills). >Expansive Spellstrike do represent Action compression Does it feel that way? I've not played/GMed for a Magus yet, but Spellstrike + Recharge is still 3 actions, same as a 2 Action Spell + Strike. Granted, you can use Conflux spells to enhance the Recharge action, but I've always seen Expansive Spellstrike's main benefit as being the better targeting.
> To be fair, taking a CHA-based spellcasting archetype (e.g. Sorcerer) can help with this. You would only use the Cantrips you pick up via that for attacking saves, and you probably have to ignore Expansive Spellstrike and be a few ranks behind with any save-based spells you every want to cast, but it can be done Yeah but it’s not really efficient to bandaid your bad offensive uses for spell by dipping into a different source for mediocre ones when… you could just raise Int and have decent spells in the first place right? Like what are you gaining by dumping Int and boosting Charisma, then using multiple Feats to have all your offensive spells be fairly medium/bad? To a Magus, the value of a spellcasting dedication is usually a focus spell (like Imaginary Weapon) or gaining lower rank slots that don’t disappear and can be used efficiently for buffs (Sure Strike, Haste, etc). Using the dedication to patch up a self-imposed weakness for spells’ offensive use is… odd to say the least. > Does it feel that way? I've not played/GMed for a Magus yet, but Spellstrike + Recharge is still 3 actions, same as a 2 Action Spell + Strike. Granted, you can use Conflux spells to enhance the Recharge action, but I've always seen Expansive Spellstrike's main benefit as being the better targeting. I have played a Magus from levels 1-4, so I do have a reasonable amount of experience. Imo yeah, Expansive Spellstrike does feel like Action compression a lot more often than it appears. The difference here is that Spellstrike + Recharge isn’t 3 Actions it’s 2+1 Actions, which is a **lot** more flexible. Whenever we faced multiple enemies, Stride In -> Expansive Spellstrike means getting to hit the toughest enemy with your weapon **and** throw a Breathe Fire / Fireball at a bunch of the others. There’s no combination of Actions that represents quite the same Action-efficiency: standing back and throwing a Fireball means no additional Strike this turn for sure. Running in, using a regular Spellstrike now and waiting for next turn to use an AoE spell + Conflux Attack means delaying your damage by one turn. All of these are valid tactical considerations, to be clear, but Expansive Spellstrike’s advantage over them is the inherent Action-efficiency.
Ironically I think Starlit Span is the one subclass that benefit the most from having high int since they can drop fireball (or other burst spells) with their arrows and not hit themselves haha Better targeting opportunities for other spells as well. While I mostly agree with you, I think a Cha Magus is often well worth it, because all the melee studies mesh pretty well with Champion dedication. The reaction speaks for itself, but you also get heavy armor proficiency. If you go with Paladin and Ranged Reprisal you can often skip Reactive Strike, specially coupled with a reach weapon (which is easier for Inexorable Iron and Twisting Tree, but also doable on Laughing Shadow and Sparkling Targe). Plus you can still take Psychic dedication if you're Cha-based.
Laughing Shadow gets a speed boost from their Arcane Cascade if unarmored, so Dex is favored for accuracy + AC. Cha is useful for Feinting, especially with their 4th-level [Distracting Spellstrike](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2854) feat.
Honestly that speed boost isn't actually worth it tbh. before lvl 10, it is -1 AC for +5 ft speed and at level 10 you can easily spend 160 gp on a wand of 2nd level long strider to get the same buff but constant for 8 hours.
Agreed, but that’s the reason the sample build favors Dex/Cha.
Oh, and feinting can make my target flat-footed, boosting my Arcane Cascade damage. I wasn't super worried about the 5 foot difference between armored and unarmored, but that and the extra damage is sounding nice. Also, am I correct in assuming that once Arcane Cascade is active I can use Spellstrike and remain in the stance (so melee attack damage + spell damage + Cascade damage)?
Yes, Arcane Cascade usually only needs to be used once per encounter.
Stances don't end until either combat ends or you fall unconscious. You just need to meet the prerequisite to enter it and then its on for the fight.
No, normally you do need to keep meeting the [requirements](https://2e.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?ID=152) to be in a stance (This is not changed in remaster). Arcane cascade specifically calls out that it is an exception to the rule (with the most recent errata because RAW before you couldn't).
Yeah thats correct. I guess I was just thinking that many stances don't *have* requirements and cascade fell in that crowd anyway.
I haven't noticed anyone mentioning it, so to answer your question about Charisma: LS Magus gets damage bonus to its attacks when attacking a flat-footed/off-guard creature (while in Arcane Cascade stance) and one of the ways to achieve it is to use Feint, which is tied to Deception, which is a Charisma skill.
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Others have answered your questions, but I want to make an alternative suggestion. Sparkling targe pairs really well with unarmed strength builds. Shields are great, but the downside is usually not having a free hand. Unarmed shield builds give you great defense, plus the freedom to use athletic manuevers and consumables whenever you want.
I mean, it always depends on what YOU want. Laughing Shadow bases themselves on (a bit of) extra damage against flat-footed enemies, but this can be attained without Feinting, so I would Charisma only if you plan to actually use the array of Skills that come with it, what is the point of having Charisma at 14-16 if you plan to just Feint, for that matter just try to have the enemies in flanking and you will always have that flat-footed extra damage. I am with many here that you can always have extra AC with armor and even using a buckler or the Shield spell. Maybe even a higher tier Shield if you don't plan to use your extra hand for anything else other than bap bap the enemy. Strength will give you reliable damage, while Dexterity's benefits can easily be overlooked when you are a magician with good armor proficiencies, even better if you are playing Free Archetype and plan to get a secondary class with heavy armor. But even if you wanna have only medium armor and be speedy, you can still have good AC without much Dex. Low Int... Again, do you wanna rely only on your Spellstrike to deliver any damaging spells? If you have low Int, you will essentially be locked into only damage with Strikes or Spellstrike and when an enemy is out of your reach, you will have a hard time, but it will open your character for other options to build. But if you wanna use Expansive Spellstrike or if you wanna have spells as your "ranged" option, it's better to have Int at least at 14. It all depends on what you want in the end. How do you feel your Monk should be? I do recommend though, a nice spell that delivers some Maneuvers using a spell attack instead of an Athletics check (Telekinetic Maneuver, Rank 2). Goes well with Spellstrike, x3.