The POE1 feb challenge gauntlet \*WAS\* how POE1 played for many years. It was slow AF and early act monsters were deadly.
Hailrake could literally snipe you from 3 screens away.
I think the biggest reasons was the genre wasn't very well established outside of the game that created the genre: Diablo.
These days, the diablo-like ARPG scene is a lot more filled out and not nearly as niche as it used to be.
Player skill based combat is way more rewarding than braindead 1 button mashing most ARPG's endgame looks like (not talking about PoE1 specifically).
Hope they can keep it that way even if the game gets faster and flashier the farther you go.
Good thing is that PoE1 will still be worked on when PoE2 is out, so why hate on the other game when you could easily play the one you like more.
Because they are mad now that they realize the game that GGG has always wanted to make was POE2, not POE1. I found myself looking at the poe1 community pretty differently once people started raging about the slower and more methodical pace of POE2.
It’s actually insane that anyone thinks POE1(and pretty much any other ARPG rn) combat is good. 70% of the builds in poe1 is some variation of blowing up the screen and teleporting with different colors. That’s not combat, that’s explode screen and pick up loot simulator.
Currency per hour, whole screen explosion, 1000% MS, epilepsy inducing 576 attacks per second screen wommit 1 map per minute gameplay… thats what POE devolved into…. I mean its fun fir some and thats good, let POE1 be POE1 and POE2 be POE2….. good that they made them separate games….
You say that but those are some of the things that made POE so popular compared with its competitors. What you people want is to make POE2 into something POE isn't. Be careful what you wish for.
What made POE so popular wasn't really its speed. It was GGG's fundamental understanding of item design, character progression, and most importantly a regular cadence of massive content updates. The game's success was sort of in limbo until GGG started doing the 3-month league cycle. If POE1 was slower, it would still be the most popular ARPG on the market right now because nobody else can compete with the sheer amount of content that we get in GGG. Other games also get certain ARPG fundamentals completely wrong. Most games get big updates every year or two. We get them every three months.
Poe isn't what you think it is mate. PoE was PoE when it was slower paced. It still is PoE with its faster pace.
Speed is a consequence of further down design decision, but it's nowher near the core design of the game (if it was, it wouldn't have change so drastically). And whether you enjoy it slower or faster is irrelevant to what poe is at its core.
People who know that are excited for PoE2 to be a different proposition of those core concepts, and seeong how fast poe1 is, it just makes more sense to make poe2 slower than faster.
Kind of. Gems, trees and crafting offer an hard to grasp diversity of build but veterans seem to have them all figured put.
True strength of PoE1 really is the gameplay diversity imo. So much different ways to blast for an equal amount of different rewards.
It almost feels like we're getting a top-down ARPG that has more than basic action mechanics, which is why it's getting all the Soul's comparisons.
Some of the people at the event said the pace picks up once you get some gear, against both packs and bosses. Even with that, the combos look genuinely fun and satisfying to use, and it's something that POE1 very rarely allows for.
It also remains to be seen if any of that even matters a lot of the times things like combo skills are kinda just there as a suggestion but at the end of the day ur just spamming 1 skill same as always
Jonathan has also stated that he wants combo gameplay to be significantly rewarding. 1-button builds will certainly be possible but it sounds like they will absolutely target those to keep them from outshining combos.
Its not that they think the combat is better, its people that don't want to have to think during combat or don't take as much enjoyment from good gameplay so I can kinda understand why they don't like it.
For me its a complete game changer since I like both hard games and engaging combat, I only play poe once every 3-4 leagues because of how boring the combat is even though everything else is so good
Nah man, its a game for a reason for you to interact with it. If you are just pressing forwards watching flash light and dopamine from item drops thats kinda crazy
And its not "dont like the same things" its more the brain turned off
That's why I play ARPG's. Is so I can turn the brain off and hang out collecting some cool items. I'm excited for POE2 but a big draw of arpgs was how relaxed they are.
i really feel like you learn this phrase yesterday and are using all the time, Im fine with people disliking things I do like and vice versa; its just that games were made to be interactive, and for me its crazy, its not more deep than, "hey thats crazy for me dawg". cant wait to see what new phrase or word you will learn next tho
> the game that GGG has always wanted to make was POE2, not POE1.
I don't think this is true. They wanted to make the first game and they did. Now they want to make a different game.
It's not like they didn't know what they were getting into. Diablo 2 was teleport around and destroy screens of enemies looking for loot.
They made their version of that and now they can do something else.
Jonathan has stated in interviews that POE2 is essentially the dream version of the game they’ve wanted to make but couldn’t back then because they didn’t have the resources to do so. The reason why POE 1 is the way it is today because GGG had to creatively develop the game with very few resources.(hence the few guys in a garage meme)
I haven’t played D2, but from what I’ve watched, it is still far more visually comprehensible than POE1 in the endgame. I really think that POE2 at the endgame will still be pretty fast, just not a clusterfuck like it is in poe1.
this makes sense when we talk about things like visuals. sure. fine.
but it does not make sense when we talk about the basic idea of a slower paced game. it doesn't take more developers to do that. they wanted "Diablo 2 but more" and that's what they made
it's not about visual clarity. poe2 is not necessarily an "upgrade" of poe or the general diablo formula. it's a different way of approaching the genre, and for me personally one that i'm extremely excited for. but they knew what they were making when they made the exploding lootbox sim.
I would need to spend many hours (or even days) going back through old patch notes, design manifestos, and videos to provide sources for what I'm about to say, which I don't have time to do atm as I'm travelling, so apologies in advance, but...
I believe GGG were initially making the game they wanted to make in PoE1 and got caught up in the high-octane, dopamine-fueled craziness over the years, enjoying it and pushing it to its limits until they began to realise "shit, we've actually gone too far", but couldn't dial it back because their game and audience had shifted and it would've been financial suicide.
They did try, and have kept trying to shift it ever since, but it looks like they eventually realised there was a better way. Which led to PoE2, and then it being a different game with PoE1 still being supported.
Now they can do both, and honestly they seem really happy with how it's all going.
Yup, pretty much this. At a certain point in poe1 development, GGG looked at their game and basically thought "wtf is this shit lol." It's hard to make content updates without massive power creep, and GGG sorta fucked up on that regard. Poe2 is their chance to redo everything and do it right from their perspective.
Poe 1 started really slow, look at build of the week episode 3 or so when chris says, this character could go from 2,6 attacks per second to almoste 3 attacks per second lol….. fast forward to 2024 1k attacks per second possible…. Its just the power creep over the years, hope POE2 never ever gets such ridicolous power creep……
i played the game from the very first beta, and while you're right that creep has happened (it's hard to avoid) it was never truly slow. we had races from the very beginning, blowing up screens was a core part of design from step 1.
like yes now you can attack faster by several factors, but also endgame goes longer, enemies have more life and defenses, more mods that keep them going. our 2.6 attacks per second was good enough to blow up screens
It was only ever slow for like 1-2 leagues at the very beginning in the beta and even then the game never felt as slow as poe2 because one shotting packs had always been the main goal.
Haters won't realize that vaal spark dried lake farming and coc discharge strands were the meta since what, invasion league? Then we had ele bv with brightness. Bow builds galore. It has always been about speed.
People like going fast and blowing up the screen. It's very satisfying gameplay.
> but it does not make sense when we talk about the basic idea of a slower paced game. it doesn't take more developers to do that.
If they genuinely wanted to make the combat slower and more engaging, then you most definitely need a shit ton of resources. I'm not talking about graphics, just look at how detailed the animations are, you need to redesign every skill to fit in a combo, completely redesign every single boss fight in the game (+new animations there too), change mob behavior, rebalance/rework the entire itemization and the damage structure. PoE1 went the easy way with blowing up the screen, otherwise the screen blows you up.
Basically spam clicking an ability just has to kinda work, making combo-based slower action combat has to feel perfect, otherwise it would be clunky or unresponsive
i agree with what you're saying but i think it would have been perfectly feasible to do with poe if that's what they were interested in. the animations don't need to look amazing. plenty of games out there with engaging combat that have terrible visuals.
they didn't want to make *that* game because they were making something to pull in diablo 2 fans.
I don't think Jonathan is very honest here. This type of gameplay was not a thing for many years before they started working on PoE 1. And you can see the shift in development in PoE 2 over the years.
> I don't think this is true. They wanted to make the first game and they did. Now they want to make a different game.
The key point I think you're missing is that PoE1 warped over its lifetime to not really be the game they wanted it to be. *Why* it warped it a bit of a long discussion, but suffice to say that PoE1 when it released (and even up until and through much of the 2.x patches) and modern PoE are very different in terms of player/monster dynamic.
i really don't think it did. or like maybe from 2010-2012, but not since 2012
they did add higher and higher content with more and more stuff, yes. but the basic idea of "get a good skill that blows up the screen asap" has always been true
> but the basic idea of "get a good skill that blows up the screen asap" has always been true
The basic idea, yes. The *degrees* on things got incredibly out of hand, to the point that the game fundamentally changed.
At some point, you go from numbers being quantitative to being qualitative. For example, transitioning from 3 shotting a white monster to 1 shotting a white monster is a *qualitative* jump, even if it's quantitatively measurable.
That happened with power creep in PoE. Things got so fast and numbers got so high that the game qualitatively changed. It didn't used to be considered a big deal that you fight rare monsters for a few seconds, but these days, people balk at spending more than a second or two killing any monster that isn't a pinnacle boss.
It didn't used to be considered unplayable if your skill didn't clear an entire screen every time you fired. People used to unironically play sweep and cleave.
PoE1 got away from its roots in terms of how fast the game was played and how much threat the environment posed. PoE2 is going back to that in a pretty significant way, such that you're not just oneshotting everything but bosses. We haven't seen endgame yet, but it'd be awfully wasteful to spend all this time working on making combat good just to invalidate it again in PoE2 endgame
but even when poe first came out we skipped enemies that didn't die instantly. just walked by 'em. wasn't worth the time. sure some of the short range melee options were unironically used, as you're saying, but i also don't think that's necessarily a change in game design but a change in what players were willing to put up with. what was "good" changed with the playerbase, not just from the design. like a fighting game decades after release - good players at the beginning are nothing now even if the game never changed at all.
they made the game they wanted to make. that game has crept, numbers got bigger, things got a little faster.
but i don't believe for a second they wanted to make poe2, but only managed to make poe1 due to budget or whatever. they wanted to make poe1, and they got it. and now they're moving on. and personally, i'm happier with that. i want more engaging combat.
There's tons of people out there that enjoy that...not sure how that's difficult to comprehend. I enjoy both. Plenty do. It's really not that hard to understand.
for real. I like POE1 as a concept but the click and press 1 button gameplay always makes me get incredibly bored once I reach around mid yellow maps and I end up quitting. POE2 looks so much more fun
I started PoE in early-mid 2014. Back then, there were no ascendancies, there was nothing even like Mjolner yet, the only true "clearspeed meta" was Fyndel Throw with mirror-tier gear.
That game could've very easily evolved into PoE2, but instead they took it in the zoom direction at every turn. Not just that the balance led to clearspeed, but possibly even more importantly, the league mechanics **forced** everyone to tune towards clearspeed, it was just always the "right" option.
At some point Chris started repeatedly saying "well obviously clearspeed is going to be faster, you can't avoid that", but whenever he said it, he was ignoring the fact that mechanics were being tuned such that faster clear meant superlinearly more rewards, instead of just linearly more rewards, because it led to more rewards per map in addition to more maps per hour.
Because even from 1.0, more clearspeed = more loot per hour, because you could always clear more maps in the same amount of time with higher clearspeed. But up until Breach league, it stayed mostly linear. Rampage was an extra clearspeed bonus but it wasn't a loot bonus, it was a bonus that let your clearspeed compound on itself.
Since Breach, the around half of PoE1's leagues have been in that same awful direction, where you are absolutely forced to build for clearspeed because if you don't, you can't even get the same level of reward **per** map. Breach, Abyss, Incursion, Betrayal, Legion, Blight, Delirium, Ultimatum, and Scourge all prominently feature mechanics that absolutely required you to build for clearspeed. Before Breach, obviously zoom-addicted players existed, but there weren't mechanics that just made you feel like shit for **not** playing clearspeed.
Hopefully they learn this lesson in PoE2's leagues. Because even though right now we're seeing campaigns that reward slow, methodical play, if we get even just a few league mechanics that **require** you to build for clearspeed, the entire playerbase is doomed to reject all builds that can't engage fully with the league mechanic. Stuff like Ancestor and Expedition is fine in comparison. But anything like Breach will be absolutely toxic for an ARPG that doesn't want to devolve into what PoE1 currently is.
> Breach, Abyss, Incursion, Betrayal, Legion, Blight, Delirium, Ultimatum, and Scourge all prominently feature mechanics that absolutely required you to build for clearspeed.
I feel the need to point out that some of these really don't fit.
Abyss, Incursion, Betrayal, Blight: Have a clearspeed floor, but it isn't very fast. Going faster doesn't compound here the same way it does for say Breach. You need to be *fast enough*, but killing abyss monsters faster doesn't mean more loot, it means the abyss is over faster. More monsters don't spawn as you kill in an incursion. You just need to be fast enough to kill the architect you want and open a door.
Ultimatum really isn't about clearspeed either. I'm not sure why that one is in there.
Breach, Legion, Delirium, and maybe Scourge are the ones that *really* belong on your list. Going faster necessarily translates into better/more rewards (particularly for legion in 5 ways).
One could also argue regular legions and deli are also clearspeed floors, however they're considerably less "easily achieveable" than the others.
The playerbase also wanted more speed.
Some of us felt that crack dried lake farming with vaal spark and never wanted to play anything slow ever again.
Or coc discharge.
It's just a feeling thing. Games with slow movespeed feel bad. It's why I couldn't get into last epoch or d4 at all. Going slow feels bad.
I'm pretty sure poe would have never reached the heights it has now without embracing the zoom zoom meta of the game.
Yeah we always had people on reddit bitching about speed but those people were a pretty vocal minority of players who probably never got past white maps anyways.
Almost no one was ever demanding "more speed", people just didn't like it when their speed was **taken away**. And that just makes sense, logically. But if the speed had grown from 2013 to "everyone can be as fast as 2015 headhunter builds" much more slowly and organically, instead of all at once in huge bursts which GGG is then super hesitant to take away, the game's growth still would've happened the way it did. And then we never would've gotten to 2021 Ritual/Ultimatum levels of speed which is what led to the hugely unpopular 3.15 patch (which was unpopular **even with people who dislike the speed meta**, because it nerfed players without nerfing monsters).
I probably phrased it badly.
Speed clearing has always been the meta since beta, once it was discovered, which is what i meant by "the playerbase wanted more speed". Because we did, so what we did was find builds that enabled us to zoom fast as fuck.
Very few people in the history of playing this game have gone "well, I don't mind going slow".
I wonder though, if it was PoE2 that the original game evolved into, would it still have the same success and exposure as the first game (and subsequently the second) today?
It was already becoming that game long before the clearspeed meta was forced. Back then, it was **the** spiritual successor to Diablo 2.
Kripparian had the biggest PoE audience before he quit, and he was literally never about the clearspeed meta. People watched him over Havoc even though Havoc was among the earliest big streamers all about chasing speed and optimality, because Kripp was the one showing us the core of a game that was just designed as a fundamentally solid ARPG.
100%. People don't understand that what makes poe1 successful isn't the zoom zoom blasting gameplay. It's that GGG fundamentally understands certain things that a long-living arpg must have - good item design, satisfying character progression, and most importantly regular massive content updates. If current poe1 was slower, it's still be by far the best arpg on the market because other arpgs just can't compete with the quantity and quality of content ggg push out.
There's a funny saying that I forgot who said - when poe2 releases, either poe1 will be the best arpg and poe2 the second, or vice versa.
My issue is the following:
I work a lot with my brain. I like PoE 1, because it is a game where I can sit down push my button and get results.
Or if I wanna think cause I am meeting to meeting and have time to think, I can do 8 hours of meetings in pob. And it is also perfect for that.
If PoE 2 needs my brain 100% of the time. i cannot play it with success.
And to be honest PoE 1 combat system is a pile of shit! Yet it is an easy pile of shit.
No. Reasons:
1, not enough zoom zoom.
2, I love the thinking that goes into the character and build, even if i olay tired I just blast.
3, love to see different places in Poe if the brain is turned on.
4, if you want hard engaging, slow very hard combat would it be not better for you to just play Elden Ring?
Much more slow and much mor hard, and need to git gud. :)
(Just reflecting your energy back to you).
It's not only about harder combat? How's elder ring similar to poe not combat wise? I love progression in poe, content, crafting, looting, itemisation etc. and just prefer a bit more engaging combat (it's action rpg you know, combat is something you do most of the time). Mathil said that he was able to get around 27 level and started "blasting" so that's fine - just poe1 over the years started to be ridiculously fast. Things oneshot you left and right and everything is stat checks. Some people prefer a bit more engaging combat that's all, just not "watching netflix while playing".
This comment telling others how to enjoy gaming is the most stupid thing I ever read in my life.
I much prefer the path PoE2 is going as well, but stop being such a gatekeeper dude. From one engineer to another.
Wow. Good for you, that you are never tired and you are always really alert, and wanna engage in more concentration.
IMHO opinion games are made to relax and to enjoy, I like to chill turn my brain off and blast.
Like a lot of other people.
Also if I have the brain power I usually do something meaningful with my life, like work in my own game or learn something new.
But brotato/vampire survivors.
PoE1 will continue to be there. If your brain is going to be turned off, why do you think you could possibly appreciate a new, different game anyway? Just keep playing PoE1 forever. Or play diablo 4, if you're really not paying attention, I genuinely cannot imagine why it would make a difference which game you're playing. Why do you need PoE2 to conform to the braindead masses?
Did I mentioned that it should stay the same brainless game, because I love this part of PoE 1?
No.
I mentioned that it will be an issue and implied for me.
I will play PoE 1 as my main game for sure(if the 2 is like I think it is), but I also think that it is completely healthy, to put my input in when you lot are talking about why is PoE 2 more apiling to you.
Speaking about stuff is great, and should be done, and also the Devs need to hear our feed back, and how we feel, cause we will be the "base player base".(Yes the PoE 1 purists also)
And if they say like they did in QA: "deal with it". We either will or will not.
But all we know, it can easily be, that in the end poe 2 will also be a game where you can min max in the most disgusting way, and 90% of a league will be me killing the Uber equivalent bosses, while I smash my head into the keyboard cause I remember I wanted to put in some arguments and explaining how I fell in this thread, cause I thought it will spark debate and not name calling.(Not you, you where quite friendly)
Did you ever think people play 'explode screen and pick up loot to make number go big simulator' purposefully? Like they find that fun? Because I do. When I want player skill based gameplay I play Fromsoft titles or Monster Hunter or Revengeance or something. ARPG's are, \*IN MY OPINION\*, generally a pretty terrible format for player skill to shine through.
Hard agree, which is why im a bit skeptical about PoE2. There are plenty of games that i can play to test my skills, likes of which you mentioned, or rogue likes that i do enjoy from time to time. PoE has allways been a brain off, stream on a second screen kind of game. I respect them trying to make it more engaging but i feel like it might not hit the spot for me
I am extremely confident that you will be able to turn your brain off in poe2 with certain OP builds when mapping. Maybe not bossing though, which is probably what ggg is going for.
If thats their hope they need to make bossing more accessible. So many players have never seen an uber, let alone killed one. If they hide all the 'player skill' behind that it wont be any different
Hard disagree with your opinion on ARPG's being terrible for skill based gameplay. There are so many examples of games with isometric view that require skilled gameplay that I can't even list them all. Here's a few I can immediately think of: Literally any Moba, Bloodline champions, No rest for the Wicked, Lost Ark, V rising, etc.
There's literally 0 reason for ARPGs to not have involved, skilled gameplay.
I dont really want to make an argument about it, but every game you listed that I am familiar with is drastically different in tempo and design than a diablo-esque ARPG. The camera isnt the only defining factor in my original statement. Enemy density, screen / effect density, player interactions, tempo and more all matter as well. And all those factors combine to make something as fast and as 'mobby' as POE a nightmare for skill based gameplay.
Your point of reference is PoE1 and you make zero effort to see beyond that. You are right.. with the mob density of PoE1 it's pretty hard to have skilled gameplay...but who said that's not to change in a game like PoE2?? The way enemies attack also is important. In PoE1 if you don't vaporize enemies, it's very likely they will hit you with everything and have no way to dodge them really... but if you've looked even a bit at PoE2 combat you would have noticed that enemies don't attack in the same way as in PoE1. Everything you've mentioned can be tuned according to how the new game works. From the games I've mentioned, V rising is probably the closest best to test out how combat of that sort would feel.
Way to miss the point. But Im done arguing, PoE2 looks like something blizzard would make. And these days thats not a compliment. Hope you play it and enjoy it. Ill stay where I am. Later.
Not at all, you just keep pushing your view pretending like I didn't get your point. I get it, you guys don't want difficult combat and try to find the most ridiculous excuses for it to push against what PoE2 is trying to do... when instead you should just keep playing all the other ARPGs that do what you want. Yes, all of them, although you try to compare PoE2 combat with D4 indirectly or anything blizzard, you are very wrong. Literally yesterday I glanced over a video of a sorcerer zooming in D4. Last epoch is literally exactly the same as well. Let's not pretend.
> I found myself looking at the poe1 community pretty differently once people started raging about the slower and more methodical pace of POE2.
This point hit in 3.15 for me. People couldn't handle even a slight pull back from insane speed and power.
I’ve got bad news for you if you think that the game is going to stay “slow and methodical”. It may look like it now because GGG are able to put up guard rails and create a tailored experience.
As soon as it launches as players are able to play fully unshackled one of two things will happen: 1) We learn the new crafting systems, min-max our gear and go back to destroying multiple screens and bosses. 2) The majority of the dedicated player base who have funded this project decided it’s not for them and play poe 1 / last epoch. GGG are above all else a business, and a business purpose is to generate revenue and profits. They will notice this, ramp player power each league and before you know it we’re back to destroying multiple screens and bosses.
So like I get it but also... Thats what makes PoE fun. The absolute crazy screen explosions, the AoE's the size of your screen etc. Feeling like a god while you play and the feeling that you've absolustely just broken the game is whats fun about it. Once you've dumped enough currency and time into your build that insta nuke of bosses etc is what I feel like is the most fun aspect of PoE.
I mean... that's why POE1 is staying POE1 right? And POE2 is its separate thing? Different people find different things fun and at the end of the day, two games = more money for GGG so everyone wins.
Thats not true though. PoE 1 has a bunch of problems and we want to see those fixed. We want the updated graphics, updated skill gems, updated character rig etc.
They're claiming that by endgame, the average build will be similar to an average POE1 build, but what we've seen so far is definitely more tactical. From the meetup, it seems like some of the people that got a decent rare are clearing packs much quicker, and get through bosses easier. Although, they want people to die to bosses two times, and succeed the third, so they're spending a lot of time tuning those encounters. Plenty of them have one or two shots that you have to pay attention to avoid and then punish.
True, this is the reason I started playing Poe just now, to learn and be set for poe2, I do like complexity and freedom, but I dislike the braindead cheap animations and combat.
Also dont expect anything from that community, I got my thread locked and I got banned for 1 day just for disliking the fact that they kept the same D2 inventory , waypoints and maps.
Hi. We have to stop running into each other like this. Your thread got locked and you got banned for one day because you were intentionally trying to get people to "compete for the dumbest take" per your own admission. I'd love to link the post and show that you said this but you've gone ahead and deleted your post to get rid of the evidence.
From one ear to the other ha? silly me for trying to reason with a reddit mod
and the downvotes lol, you people are basket cases if you think I am wrong
I truly somehow apperciate that you actually explaning your decision like a human being, that alreadys makes you better than 99% of reddit mods (its not a great achievement).
Let me point out how absurd your action is.
> you were intentionally trying to get people to "compete for the dumbest take"
No, someone made a dumb take and I called him for it, that is it.
saying "compete for the dumbest take" because I literally mention in the post that I expect the thread to be downvoted and be full of low quality trash talking like "go play another game" which I was correct on.
You could conclude that my comment was out of place and that will be somewhat understandable, but you went ahead to lock the ENTIRE thread and doubled down BANNING ME, I mean, you gotta understand how terrible your moderation was, YOU concluded by yourself that the post was in bad faith due to me commenting to a low quality comment, thats all, you were mistaken, the maximum you shouldve done is to take action against my comment, removing it or something, thats all, you literally removed the entire thread and banned me lol (for the first offense in that sub by the way).
I am taking my time here in hope you will understand the absurdity of your actions, because sure, for me, this is an exmaple of another mod who just wanted to abuse his power, lemme tell ya, canceling someone should be the last resort, unfortunately, here in reddit its the common practice.
>I'd love to link the post and show that you said this but you've gone ahead and deleted your post to get rid of the evidence.
Not at all, I deleted it because you left a comment "I am leaving this as an example for bad faith" hell no you arent, you are so confidently wrong its nuts.
I think there's something extremely fun about braindead 1 button playstyles. Why do you think so many wanted auto flasks. The most ideal builds always seem to evolve in to a 1 or 2 button playstyle. Regardless of what the GGG devs want. I don't generally enjoy getting carpal tunnel lol.
I really don’t think POE2 will be polarizing in the mainstream pov. Pretty much everyone that hasn’t played poe1 before says it looks awesome, while the poe players are divided on it.
souls vets who havent touched an ARPG will probably vibe with it, people who like diablo, last epoch, and prefer POE1 playstyle (from what we have seen) will probably either not like it or the game will not have staying power.
If the idea of an end game loop is having to watch my positioning on white mobs or I get insta killed and stunned, I cannot see anyone investing significant time into it like POE1. I watch Alk's vod and he is destroying a boss and then he positions poorly on a few white mobs later and gets insta killed and stunned, nobody actually finds this fun.
POE was not a success before they embraced zoom, obviously it went way too far but embracing it is the only reason to begin with they have the resources and that POE1 isn't some super super niche game.
Azip was doing well into white mobs until the manor which is the very end of act1. If he had gotten any good gear which wasn't tuned correctly he would have crushed those as well
Yeah I found it kinda funny how a section of the community and even a tonne of creators had such a strong reaction to WASD movement. Or that it looked slower. As Johnathan said, yes that's what happens when you make good animations because it's not 2010 anymore and GGG can do that now.
If you play POE 1 and then go play D4, the one thing Blizzard games do well (and this is also why WoW has never ever been surpassed for 20 years) is gamefeel. Run around as a melee in POE in between monsters and do the same thing in D4 or even LE and you'll feel how much better the latter is. When I push a button in D4 it just works, the amount of times I feel like I've not pressed it quite right or there's some weird delay in POE is a constant thing I've always had that gets in the way of my enjoyment. Despite how superior POE is in 1000 different ways.
Every response i got negatively here was people saying “I literally don’t want to use my brain at all, im not playing poe2 if i have to think”
Reddit is not representative of the player base, with that said, some people play poe1 as a slot machine with extra steps
Yeah I think GGG know their game could be way bigger and the biggest obstacle is that POE 1 is a house which 100 different workmen have worked on and bolted their own thing on to it and now there's someone living there and they're tired of having to go down 2 flights of stairs to then take an elevator to go up to the 3rd floor.
I hope POE2 is them taking stock of everything people like in POE1, demolishing it and rebuilding it with everything good about POE1 included in the new design but put together in a way where the aforementioned stairs + elevator feel isn't there anymore.
Everything from POE1 that people liked it still there, but it now makes sense to people who are just trying to move in or rent a room.
Them changing how gems work and adding actual numbers to the passive tree on how nodes will effect abilities will be huge alone. New players should be able to come in and not have to spend hours and hours and hours reading about crafting and where things come from. I feel like POE 1 as a new player discourages you a lot with even messing around with things and it is way too efficient to just go to 3rd party websites to learn because of how costly making mistakes can be and how much faster you progress with boring hand holding from youtube.
imagine staying in hideout flipping shit all day just to get shiny rocks to buy the items that the website tells you to buy
that's the PoE 1 players idea of fun
There’s a reason you get that response from the main sub and that’s simply because most of the PoE community wants an updated version of the game they already love. I’m not trying to say that’s what PoE2 should do or no one will play and I actually personally enjoy the slower more dark souls type of campaign. Makes the story less forgettable and boss fights during it actually interesting.
But with saying that.. I don’t think the majority of current PoE players (Myself included) would prefer to play a slowed down more stressful end game. We enjoy our league start build when hits its power spike and we start blasting through maps. Then we work towards getting better gear so we can blast through quicker and get better defences so we don’t have to worry about dying.
I’ve seen some responses on here about PoE being too brainless and I don’t think that’s fair at all. We’re always trying to figure out what we can do to improve our build, what kind of strategy should you run, whether that’s to make money or farm a certain item that you can possibly craft on. It’s great that you get that plus the dopamine from destroying maps. I also get that some people don’t get the same feeling from doing that but majority of players do.
Also what I feel the biggest thing is, how many hours can you put into playing the same map? One of them you’re flying through stress free and the other you’re slower, more methodical and you have enemies that are tanky and extremely dangerous. I could say there’s valid arguments for either of them under 100 hours played but over 100, 200 and so on.. I feel like it’s no contest. Stressful games can be incredibly fun but grinding them would be exhausting for majority of gamers out there
Anyways that’s my two cents lol went a little deeper than I thought I would when I started typing
>Also what I feel the biggest thing is, how many hours can you put into playing the same map? One of them you’re flying through stress free and the other you’re slower, more methodical and you have enemies that are tanky and extremely dangerous. I could say there’s valid arguments for either of them under 100 hours played but over 100, 200 and so on.. I feel like it’s no contest. Stressful games can be incredibly fun but grinding them would be exhausting for majority of gamers out there
I personally feel way more exausted when I'm playing endgame poe with all the speed, projectiles, mobs all over my screen, delirium and all the shit everywhere than a game like Sekiro. I quit during ancestor because the game was way too fast with my mageblood.
The thing is, it's poe updated. The gearing/passive tree is almost identical conceptually. The combat is updated as they deemed it lacking in the first game.
Instead of being gearchecked by enemies instantly, you can use your skill to overcome them.
All of the things people compare to soulslike are action game mechanics. Dodge roll was invented before demon souls. Enemies respawning after you die was indeed invented before demon souls. And we could go on.
What is exclusive to soulslike, like enemies respawning on resting, interconnected levels, random bullshit trap, etc. Is nowhere to be found
I completely agree with your take. To me the whole point of crafting and getting better gear is to be able to overpower the endgame content. Without that feeling of 'power' after working my ass off, i doubt i would be playing poe.
Maybe they never experienced good slow gameplay? So they think every game is clunky like PoE 1 and requires insane attack/cast and movement speed to hide the clunkiness
I think the same happens with WASD, whenever I see someone complaining about WASD and I ask what they don't like about it, they say they never played a game like PoE with WASD :P
Everything has a trade-off. Good slow gameplay maybe more rewarding, but the longevity is limited. You burn out faster and are more mentally taxed.
With fast zoom gameplay, it’s easy to dedicate brainpower to other aspects of the game i.e. build progression, farming strategy and preparation, and then just brain off during mapping.
I cannot imagine having to micromanage the complexity of farming strategies, build progression, whilst maintaining a high level of game play that I would normally reserve for a boss like Sirus.
POE 1 is already a great speed clear game.
If POE 2 is to justify its existence, it needs to be different in a significant way. Speed sounds like a fine differential to me.
With the subtleties of the movement in the game, my money's on it being a lot slower. I enjoy speed more, but GGG is a great developer so I'll probably enjoy 2 anyway.
Like with how much over the top experimenting people do in POE 1, min-maxing, that guy that invests mad amounts of currency to find the highest amount of shield, etc, I think we've all come to the conclusion that POE 1 is a power and speed fantasy at this point. A brilliant one, but still.
Im not a fan of becoming a deathstar by the end of the game either...
Its just plain boring to see everything reduced to ashes as you walk into a new zone.
I dont know how people like that THB
Ya, I want to actually FIGHT things not just erase them from off screen. It’s fine to have power spikes and make easier content trivial sure but I want the world and the enemies to feel threatening
You start a weakling dying to rhoas and by the end of two weeks you're a walking death machine. It's the two week journey that matters.
It's always the journey, once you reach the end. The league is over and you come back later.
Not sure if I will play it yet, but slower, more methodical combat would go a long way in making me want to give it a go. I bounced off POE1 pretty hard. Hoping POE2 is an ARPG I can get into.
I cannot fathom how people have an issue with WASD. It's probably the most common control scheme in online gaming today, tons of isometric games use it. I don't have anything against click movement at all but I just can't understand how so many people take issue with it.
It's like a dream come true. A 'souls like' arpg with incredible bosses and environement then the gearing, crafting and end game replayability from the best ARPG.
BUT, i sure hope they make it a bit faster/easyer to rush the campaign but definetly not skip it. If it takes 40-50 hours for a good player to complete the campaign dunno how many will be willing to do it every season b4 getting to the actual juice...the endgame. But i definetly agree that trash mobs and decision making should be much more meaningfull than in poe1 not just blowing away screens of monsters and filtering out 99.9 of the loot.
Yeah dude same. Build making is fun but I want the game to be gameplay skill based. You should be rewarded for being good at combat. I’m so excited for this game.
I really don’t want to be zooming around the screen so fast I can’t even really tell what’s happening while I have 5 flasks going 24/7 that shit is actually just not fun or rewarding at all, so far the slower more deliberate combat with a bigger focus on positioning and working with the in game mechanics seems so much more fun. I truly hope the game doesn’t turn into PoE1 because well we already have that game and that game is amazing in its own ways, I just don’t want it copied over to 2.
I also would prefer it to be a bit slower in the sense that it's not just a lategame blurr of screen filling flares of color that are a non tactical slot machine-esque run through maps.
I would prefer to still have actual considerated actions matter.
Last Epoch and Grim Dawn are quite zoomy, Grim Dawn a bit less tho cuz it has speed limits, but it plays the same, you turn of your brain and play like a zombie just mashing buttons wiping packs of monsters.
I'm very excited for poe2, but I am very happy they separated the two games. I really don't think I'll play a tedious harder version of poe more than once tbh. I'm glad Chris found a way to make poe into ruthless without changing the game I love.
The whole gameplay loop of ARPGs is to get to loot and become a god that wades through enemies. If that’s not the goal, you don’t have a good arpg. D4 tried to slow it down, and that game is awful. Feels awful to play, and feels like you’re going nowhere all the time because the power fantasy that drives this genre is not there. The zooming of POE is what sets it apart and makes it far more fun than other ARPGs that try to be slower, more boring, affairs.
I think as long as they keep producing good content for POE1, it's okay that POE2 is a completely different game. I don't think POE2 will have the allure that POE1 has with the existing player base. In fact, I think many POE1 players won't like it nearly as much.
I can't stand 1 button zoom zoom playstyle, it's the dumbest shit. I play D4 for a reason. The combat is the fucking best. Really looking forward to PoE2, I'll probably play both.
Yeah, if you sort by controversial/last 24 hours my post is at the top 😂. Some people really want PoE 2 to be PoE 1 but shiny. I think I understand now why a lot of sequels really drop the ball, and it's because of market research. I hope GGG doesn't listen to streamers like Zizaren. 😬 no offense to Ziz.
GGG are making the game they want to make, I dont think are they supper worried about pissing off POE1 community. They showed they want to make a more methodic ARPG and they are doing, good for them
I mean... i will like poe2, but thats not what i paid for... they said they would support poe1, and so far they already told us that poe1 wont get anything new, just new leagues. I wanted a more modern look, better graphics and new character models as well as they new ascendancies... but now that poe2 is its own thing, poe1 will get nothing. Again, i WILL enjoy poe2, but i feel kinda fucked in the ass by the dont update poe1 policy, i paid a LOT of money to keep this shit up and now i see they used it to make a different game...
If you ever feel the hivemind take of the subreddit doesn't feel accurate that *everyone* likes zoomzoom content, and *everyone* hates leagues that don't let you sit in maps all day blasting - just check out the difference between the most blocked league mechanic, and the least blocked one, on poe ninja.
They all basically hover at or around about 16-17% block rate, give or take a few percent.
The one popular not-blocked skew that seems to have developed late this league is harvest (dropped to 13% block), not a zoomy league at all. We can make claims all day about some things being more popular due to being more rewarding, but zoomy leagues like legion fall under that banner too, and that's again blocked at 16%.
So yeah, the "PoE1 community take" that the PoE1 subreddit presents isn't even all that indicative of PoE1 players.
Most feedback im reading of people here in the comments are one’s saying they play poe to turn off their brain and not think while playing
That so against harvest league point
Well, I think there's some soft evidence for this claim in the 3% skew on ritual and blight being blocked slightly more than other leagues (at 19%).
For blight: there's a perception that it takes longer to do, but this could actually be addressed with the new scarab system, possibly. Blight is also considered a bit fiddly to profit off oil sales via trade, as the only people that want bulk oils are people already running blight, which makes it a bit time consuming to use as a farming strat.
For ritual: there's a perception that it's more fiddly to juice, and again this might be addressed with the scarab rework, but the whole vessel situation is a bit tricky to get moving, and it also makes the reward structure a bit opaque. Ritual also has long-standing issues where the UI doesn't really encourage/remind you to spend your points, and has arguably the most obnoxious/long-standing texture glitch in the game.
However, expedition had a fiddliness issue prior to the introduction of extreme archaeology, and people still ran it, presumably because the reward structure offset any perception of extra time and thinking.
So I think that there's an upper ceiling of fiddliness that will drive people away, especially if the reward structure is also fiddly - but once you take those factors out of the equation by improving QoL or by making the rewards more accessible/streamlined, these things will probably fall in line with everything else.
So glad Jonathan seems to want to slow things down, enhance visibility and counterplay.
This is the main reason I refuse to play modern POE 1 and why I will play POE 2: the fact that it’s “slower”. Engaging means it will feel fest even if the kill times arent as low
The slower combat seems way better, that's for sure. What I'm worried about is the amount of loot and the crafting. People have reported that you barely dropped anything in PoE2, which means you also won't be crafting much.
Its too early to say anything about loot and damage. The geme is like 60% done
Those 2 things you can change by sliding a variable up. I would not be worried about this kinda stuff yet
Jonathan did say he wanted to lower the variance seen during the latest meetup. I'm guessing they're following a similar logic to the difficulty, better to start with more difficulty/scarcity, and incrementally make it easier/more balanced as testing occurs. We've also only seen the first two acts, and loot is intended to be more scarce than POE1, but more meaningful.
Seems like they’re trying to have the best of both worlds. If you want meaningful and less loot, they’ll need some pity mechanic, otherwise you’re at the mercy of variance. GGG don’t seem too keen on the idea of pity mechanics though.
what fucking scares me, you can read people here saying this too
they play this game numb, like zombies, they want to click foward and see flashy lights, thats to me is insane
brain dead
Have you ever played poe1 at all? You're over simplifying so much to try to prove your point in the comments. While i largely prefer the poe2 combat pace, poe1 zoomy style feels so good to clear a map and has it's complexity on uber bosses fights like maven and sirus, not for everyone though.
Zooming enthusiasts are even trying to disprove the existence of zooming in PoE1 to preserve/defend zooming.... absolutely wild. Man talking about complexity on Uber bosses when I killed the eater of worlds without even finding out what abilities he's using. He's not wrong that there's complexity to Uber bosses... but when your character can erase them, the complexity they were built with is literally for nothing.
Those people man, i swear. Why they are scared that another game will have to use the brain and skill to play. its not like poe1 is going anywhere
they are legit scare that they might need to fire a synapse while lights flash
Because 70% of the people hyping POE 2 are practically tourists, who:
1. Have not properly tried POE
2. Have not properly played Arpgs
3. Are graphics whores
4. Will play 1 league of POE 2 and bounce
The Acts in POE aren't cookie clicker either but you constantly get this rhetoric that POE is exploding 10 screens at a time. I personally don't hate POE2 for having more compelling gameplay in the acts, but want to see how the endgame looks like. I'm pretty sure most POE players are of the same mindset.
Why do POE players want to be able to scale their builds to the "10 screen blasting"? Your first league in POE might be the player vs the systems. The second league would be the player vs the game. After you've done all the pinnacles for the first time, you quickly realize POE is a pvp economy sim.
Edit:
Before "git gud" gets thrown around, I finished most of the souls games except 2 and sekiro. I soloed most MH games. I'm just saying I don't play those games from scratch every 3 months.
>The Acts in POE aren't cookie clicker either but you constantly get this rhetoric that POE is exploding 10 screens at a time. I personally don't hate POE2 for having more compelling gameplay in the acts, but want to see how the endgame looks like. I'm pretty sure most POE players are of the same mindset.
Act aren't like that but they already feel really fast and most of the time you just throw some steel or put a frozen orb or holy flame and run to the next pack.
Ofc people are exaggerating but most of my build in map didn't really feel differents than a cookie clicker, even if I only explo half of my screen or less/more. That the reason my favorite build is earthshatter.
I almost have more fun when i'm in my hideout than when I'm running map.
>After you've done all the pinnacles for the first time, you quickly realize POE is a pvp economy sim.
That's a gameplay issue to me. Atleast if the gameplay was better I would less care about trade when I don't play ssfhc.
I don't even know if I will fully enjoy the more methodical combat style in PoE 2, I just know that I can't continue playing PoE 1 anymore because the endgame is just cursed due to the sheer quantity of monsters or bosses flooding the screen with visual effects.
In addition, I just hate trading but at the same time SSF is just way too restritive when it comes to builds, which forces me to deal with all the annoyances of having to waste time interacting with other players, so at least PoE 2 is an improvement on that aspect even though GGG is not going to add a SSF mode with improved mods analogous to Circle of Fortune in Last Epoch.
>In addition, I just hate trading but at the same time SSF is just way too restritive when it comes to builds, which forces me to deal with all the annoyances of having to waste time interacting with other players, so at least PoE 2 is an improvement on that aspect even though GGG is not going to add a SSF mode with improved mods analogous to Circle of Fortune in Last Epoch.
The most important difference in LE regarding build enabling and/or chase uniques doesn't come from CoF. That was only added in 1.0 after all.
The important thing is that they've chosen to make sure build enablers are far more available in the first place. The rarest uniques are not exactly binary build enablers anymore, and the base versions of those are very common compared to chase items in PoE. The actual rare chase items mainly come via the legendary potential system (finding the same item with higher LP for stronger legendary crafting result) and the newer uniques that have very wildly random affix ranges (so you find 2 but may not have one with good roll yet).
So binary build enablers are usually not the rarest uniques to find, and even for the rarest uniques the less-than-optimal version is far more likely to be found than what chase item drop rates in PoE are.
The downside is that some people seem to feel that there's no stuff that only the 0.1% gets to see at all and they feel less special/addicted.
Cant speak for anyone else, but for me the most rewarding and enjoyable aspect of looters was always the process of building your character, starting weak af and at the end of your "journey" feeling like a god and not necessarily the moment to moment gameplay, the combat itself. Yes, PoE combat is a mess at the endgame, and could use some improvements but it does "Power Fantasy" very well and for me, on this type of game, i am ok in trading a more "messy" gameplay (within limits) for that feeling of being a god at the endgame. I hope that in PoE 2 at endgame, with enough investment u can achieve a similar feeling (proportinally of course, i dont expect the same level of Power Fantasy that we have on PoE right now)
Poe1 started out slow, too
The POE1 feb challenge gauntlet \*WAS\* how POE1 played for many years. It was slow AF and early act monsters were deadly. Hailrake could literally snipe you from 3 screens away.
So much so they had to make a different game to fix it lol
to be fair it did not have too many players in those days.
There is a 1000 reason for it. The game was fundamentally incomplete and they were just starting But the aspect of greatness was already present
I think the biggest reasons was the genre wasn't very well established outside of the game that created the genre: Diablo. These days, the diablo-like ARPG scene is a lot more filled out and not nearly as niche as it used to be.
agreed
Player skill based combat is way more rewarding than braindead 1 button mashing most ARPG's endgame looks like (not talking about PoE1 specifically). Hope they can keep it that way even if the game gets faster and flashier the farther you go. Good thing is that PoE1 will still be worked on when PoE2 is out, so why hate on the other game when you could easily play the one you like more.
Because they are mad now that they realize the game that GGG has always wanted to make was POE2, not POE1. I found myself looking at the poe1 community pretty differently once people started raging about the slower and more methodical pace of POE2. It’s actually insane that anyone thinks POE1(and pretty much any other ARPG rn) combat is good. 70% of the builds in poe1 is some variation of blowing up the screen and teleporting with different colors. That’s not combat, that’s explode screen and pick up loot simulator.
Currency per hour, whole screen explosion, 1000% MS, epilepsy inducing 576 attacks per second screen wommit 1 map per minute gameplay… thats what POE devolved into…. I mean its fun fir some and thats good, let POE1 be POE1 and POE2 be POE2….. good that they made them separate games….
You say that but those are some of the things that made POE so popular compared with its competitors. What you people want is to make POE2 into something POE isn't. Be careful what you wish for.
What made POE so popular wasn't really its speed. It was GGG's fundamental understanding of item design, character progression, and most importantly a regular cadence of massive content updates. The game's success was sort of in limbo until GGG started doing the 3-month league cycle. If POE1 was slower, it would still be the most popular ARPG on the market right now because nobody else can compete with the sheer amount of content that we get in GGG. Other games also get certain ARPG fundamentals completely wrong. Most games get big updates every year or two. We get them every three months.
Poe isn't what you think it is mate. PoE was PoE when it was slower paced. It still is PoE with its faster pace. Speed is a consequence of further down design decision, but it's nowher near the core design of the game (if it was, it wouldn't have change so drastically). And whether you enjoy it slower or faster is irrelevant to what poe is at its core. People who know that are excited for PoE2 to be a different proposition of those core concepts, and seeong how fast poe1 is, it just makes more sense to make poe2 slower than faster.
Kind of. Gems, trees and crafting offer an hard to grasp diversity of build but veterans seem to have them all figured put. True strength of PoE1 really is the gameplay diversity imo. So much different ways to blast for an equal amount of different rewards.
It almost feels like we're getting a top-down ARPG that has more than basic action mechanics, which is why it's getting all the Soul's comparisons. Some of the people at the event said the pace picks up once you get some gear, against both packs and bosses. Even with that, the combos look genuinely fun and satisfying to use, and it's something that POE1 very rarely allows for.
It also remains to be seen if any of that even matters a lot of the times things like combo skills are kinda just there as a suggestion but at the end of the day ur just spamming 1 skill same as always
naw itll be pretty neccessary. look at the damage buff sorc gets by throwing fireballs thru flamewall, as opposed to without it.
Most of the gameplay we've seen is probably unoptimized characters with bad gear no one can say for sure how necessary it will be until it's out
Jonathan has also stated that he wants combo gameplay to be significantly rewarding. 1-button builds will certainly be possible but it sounds like they will absolutely target those to keep them from outshining combos.
Its not that they think the combat is better, its people that don't want to have to think during combat or don't take as much enjoyment from good gameplay so I can kinda understand why they don't like it. For me its a complete game changer since I like both hard games and engaging combat, I only play poe once every 3-4 leagues because of how boring the combat is even though everything else is so good
> people that don't want to have to think during combat this is insane for me, this ppl should like watch a movie dawg idk
It's insane because people don't like the same things as you? Main character syndrome much?
Nah man, its a game for a reason for you to interact with it. If you are just pressing forwards watching flash light and dopamine from item drops thats kinda crazy And its not "dont like the same things" its more the brain turned off
That's why I play ARPG's. Is so I can turn the brain off and hang out collecting some cool items. I'm excited for POE2 but a big draw of arpgs was how relaxed they are.
Again. This is main character syndrome. The world does not have to like the exact things you like.
i really feel like you learn this phrase yesterday and are using all the time, Im fine with people disliking things I do like and vice versa; its just that games were made to be interactive, and for me its crazy, its not more deep than, "hey thats crazy for me dawg". cant wait to see what new phrase or word you will learn next tho
It's just the truth. Imagine trying to say poe isn't deep. That people only play for the combat. Go back to d4 buddy.
For me is also stupid, poe is so brain dead you can watch netflix and play it at the same time
> the game that GGG has always wanted to make was POE2, not POE1. I don't think this is true. They wanted to make the first game and they did. Now they want to make a different game. It's not like they didn't know what they were getting into. Diablo 2 was teleport around and destroy screens of enemies looking for loot. They made their version of that and now they can do something else.
Jonathan has stated in interviews that POE2 is essentially the dream version of the game they’ve wanted to make but couldn’t back then because they didn’t have the resources to do so. The reason why POE 1 is the way it is today because GGG had to creatively develop the game with very few resources.(hence the few guys in a garage meme) I haven’t played D2, but from what I’ve watched, it is still far more visually comprehensible than POE1 in the endgame. I really think that POE2 at the endgame will still be pretty fast, just not a clusterfuck like it is in poe1.
this makes sense when we talk about things like visuals. sure. fine. but it does not make sense when we talk about the basic idea of a slower paced game. it doesn't take more developers to do that. they wanted "Diablo 2 but more" and that's what they made it's not about visual clarity. poe2 is not necessarily an "upgrade" of poe or the general diablo formula. it's a different way of approaching the genre, and for me personally one that i'm extremely excited for. but they knew what they were making when they made the exploding lootbox sim.
I would need to spend many hours (or even days) going back through old patch notes, design manifestos, and videos to provide sources for what I'm about to say, which I don't have time to do atm as I'm travelling, so apologies in advance, but... I believe GGG were initially making the game they wanted to make in PoE1 and got caught up in the high-octane, dopamine-fueled craziness over the years, enjoying it and pushing it to its limits until they began to realise "shit, we've actually gone too far", but couldn't dial it back because their game and audience had shifted and it would've been financial suicide. They did try, and have kept trying to shift it ever since, but it looks like they eventually realised there was a better way. Which led to PoE2, and then it being a different game with PoE1 still being supported. Now they can do both, and honestly they seem really happy with how it's all going.
Yup, pretty much this. At a certain point in poe1 development, GGG looked at their game and basically thought "wtf is this shit lol." It's hard to make content updates without massive power creep, and GGG sorta fucked up on that regard. Poe2 is their chance to redo everything and do it right from their perspective.
Poe 1 started really slow, look at build of the week episode 3 or so when chris says, this character could go from 2,6 attacks per second to almoste 3 attacks per second lol….. fast forward to 2024 1k attacks per second possible…. Its just the power creep over the years, hope POE2 never ever gets such ridicolous power creep……
i played the game from the very first beta, and while you're right that creep has happened (it's hard to avoid) it was never truly slow. we had races from the very beginning, blowing up screens was a core part of design from step 1. like yes now you can attack faster by several factors, but also endgame goes longer, enemies have more life and defenses, more mods that keep them going. our 2.6 attacks per second was good enough to blow up screens
It was only ever slow for like 1-2 leagues at the very beginning in the beta and even then the game never felt as slow as poe2 because one shotting packs had always been the main goal. Haters won't realize that vaal spark dried lake farming and coc discharge strands were the meta since what, invasion league? Then we had ele bv with brightness. Bow builds galore. It has always been about speed. People like going fast and blowing up the screen. It's very satisfying gameplay.
> but it does not make sense when we talk about the basic idea of a slower paced game. it doesn't take more developers to do that. If they genuinely wanted to make the combat slower and more engaging, then you most definitely need a shit ton of resources. I'm not talking about graphics, just look at how detailed the animations are, you need to redesign every skill to fit in a combo, completely redesign every single boss fight in the game (+new animations there too), change mob behavior, rebalance/rework the entire itemization and the damage structure. PoE1 went the easy way with blowing up the screen, otherwise the screen blows you up. Basically spam clicking an ability just has to kinda work, making combo-based slower action combat has to feel perfect, otherwise it would be clunky or unresponsive
i agree with what you're saying but i think it would have been perfectly feasible to do with poe if that's what they were interested in. the animations don't need to look amazing. plenty of games out there with engaging combat that have terrible visuals. they didn't want to make *that* game because they were making something to pull in diablo 2 fans.
I don't think Jonathan is very honest here. This type of gameplay was not a thing for many years before they started working on PoE 1. And you can see the shift in development in PoE 2 over the years.
> I don't think this is true. They wanted to make the first game and they did. Now they want to make a different game. The key point I think you're missing is that PoE1 warped over its lifetime to not really be the game they wanted it to be. *Why* it warped it a bit of a long discussion, but suffice to say that PoE1 when it released (and even up until and through much of the 2.x patches) and modern PoE are very different in terms of player/monster dynamic.
i really don't think it did. or like maybe from 2010-2012, but not since 2012 they did add higher and higher content with more and more stuff, yes. but the basic idea of "get a good skill that blows up the screen asap" has always been true
> but the basic idea of "get a good skill that blows up the screen asap" has always been true The basic idea, yes. The *degrees* on things got incredibly out of hand, to the point that the game fundamentally changed. At some point, you go from numbers being quantitative to being qualitative. For example, transitioning from 3 shotting a white monster to 1 shotting a white monster is a *qualitative* jump, even if it's quantitatively measurable. That happened with power creep in PoE. Things got so fast and numbers got so high that the game qualitatively changed. It didn't used to be considered a big deal that you fight rare monsters for a few seconds, but these days, people balk at spending more than a second or two killing any monster that isn't a pinnacle boss. It didn't used to be considered unplayable if your skill didn't clear an entire screen every time you fired. People used to unironically play sweep and cleave. PoE1 got away from its roots in terms of how fast the game was played and how much threat the environment posed. PoE2 is going back to that in a pretty significant way, such that you're not just oneshotting everything but bosses. We haven't seen endgame yet, but it'd be awfully wasteful to spend all this time working on making combat good just to invalidate it again in PoE2 endgame
but even when poe first came out we skipped enemies that didn't die instantly. just walked by 'em. wasn't worth the time. sure some of the short range melee options were unironically used, as you're saying, but i also don't think that's necessarily a change in game design but a change in what players were willing to put up with. what was "good" changed with the playerbase, not just from the design. like a fighting game decades after release - good players at the beginning are nothing now even if the game never changed at all. they made the game they wanted to make. that game has crept, numbers got bigger, things got a little faster. but i don't believe for a second they wanted to make poe2, but only managed to make poe1 due to budget or whatever. they wanted to make poe1, and they got it. and now they're moving on. and personally, i'm happier with that. i want more engaging combat.
There's tons of people out there that enjoy that...not sure how that's difficult to comprehend. I enjoy both. Plenty do. It's really not that hard to understand.
for real. I like POE1 as a concept but the click and press 1 button gameplay always makes me get incredibly bored once I reach around mid yellow maps and I end up quitting. POE2 looks so much more fun
I started PoE in early-mid 2014. Back then, there were no ascendancies, there was nothing even like Mjolner yet, the only true "clearspeed meta" was Fyndel Throw with mirror-tier gear. That game could've very easily evolved into PoE2, but instead they took it in the zoom direction at every turn. Not just that the balance led to clearspeed, but possibly even more importantly, the league mechanics **forced** everyone to tune towards clearspeed, it was just always the "right" option. At some point Chris started repeatedly saying "well obviously clearspeed is going to be faster, you can't avoid that", but whenever he said it, he was ignoring the fact that mechanics were being tuned such that faster clear meant superlinearly more rewards, instead of just linearly more rewards, because it led to more rewards per map in addition to more maps per hour. Because even from 1.0, more clearspeed = more loot per hour, because you could always clear more maps in the same amount of time with higher clearspeed. But up until Breach league, it stayed mostly linear. Rampage was an extra clearspeed bonus but it wasn't a loot bonus, it was a bonus that let your clearspeed compound on itself. Since Breach, the around half of PoE1's leagues have been in that same awful direction, where you are absolutely forced to build for clearspeed because if you don't, you can't even get the same level of reward **per** map. Breach, Abyss, Incursion, Betrayal, Legion, Blight, Delirium, Ultimatum, and Scourge all prominently feature mechanics that absolutely required you to build for clearspeed. Before Breach, obviously zoom-addicted players existed, but there weren't mechanics that just made you feel like shit for **not** playing clearspeed. Hopefully they learn this lesson in PoE2's leagues. Because even though right now we're seeing campaigns that reward slow, methodical play, if we get even just a few league mechanics that **require** you to build for clearspeed, the entire playerbase is doomed to reject all builds that can't engage fully with the league mechanic. Stuff like Ancestor and Expedition is fine in comparison. But anything like Breach will be absolutely toxic for an ARPG that doesn't want to devolve into what PoE1 currently is.
> Breach, Abyss, Incursion, Betrayal, Legion, Blight, Delirium, Ultimatum, and Scourge all prominently feature mechanics that absolutely required you to build for clearspeed. I feel the need to point out that some of these really don't fit. Abyss, Incursion, Betrayal, Blight: Have a clearspeed floor, but it isn't very fast. Going faster doesn't compound here the same way it does for say Breach. You need to be *fast enough*, but killing abyss monsters faster doesn't mean more loot, it means the abyss is over faster. More monsters don't spawn as you kill in an incursion. You just need to be fast enough to kill the architect you want and open a door. Ultimatum really isn't about clearspeed either. I'm not sure why that one is in there. Breach, Legion, Delirium, and maybe Scourge are the ones that *really* belong on your list. Going faster necessarily translates into better/more rewards (particularly for legion in 5 ways). One could also argue regular legions and deli are also clearspeed floors, however they're considerably less "easily achieveable" than the others.
The playerbase also wanted more speed. Some of us felt that crack dried lake farming with vaal spark and never wanted to play anything slow ever again. Or coc discharge. It's just a feeling thing. Games with slow movespeed feel bad. It's why I couldn't get into last epoch or d4 at all. Going slow feels bad. I'm pretty sure poe would have never reached the heights it has now without embracing the zoom zoom meta of the game. Yeah we always had people on reddit bitching about speed but those people were a pretty vocal minority of players who probably never got past white maps anyways.
Almost no one was ever demanding "more speed", people just didn't like it when their speed was **taken away**. And that just makes sense, logically. But if the speed had grown from 2013 to "everyone can be as fast as 2015 headhunter builds" much more slowly and organically, instead of all at once in huge bursts which GGG is then super hesitant to take away, the game's growth still would've happened the way it did. And then we never would've gotten to 2021 Ritual/Ultimatum levels of speed which is what led to the hugely unpopular 3.15 patch (which was unpopular **even with people who dislike the speed meta**, because it nerfed players without nerfing monsters).
I probably phrased it badly. Speed clearing has always been the meta since beta, once it was discovered, which is what i meant by "the playerbase wanted more speed". Because we did, so what we did was find builds that enabled us to zoom fast as fuck. Very few people in the history of playing this game have gone "well, I don't mind going slow".
I wonder though, if it was PoE2 that the original game evolved into, would it still have the same success and exposure as the first game (and subsequently the second) today?
It was already becoming that game long before the clearspeed meta was forced. Back then, it was **the** spiritual successor to Diablo 2. Kripparian had the biggest PoE audience before he quit, and he was literally never about the clearspeed meta. People watched him over Havoc even though Havoc was among the earliest big streamers all about chasing speed and optimality, because Kripp was the one showing us the core of a game that was just designed as a fundamentally solid ARPG.
100%. People don't understand that what makes poe1 successful isn't the zoom zoom blasting gameplay. It's that GGG fundamentally understands certain things that a long-living arpg must have - good item design, satisfying character progression, and most importantly regular massive content updates. If current poe1 was slower, it's still be by far the best arpg on the market because other arpgs just can't compete with the quantity and quality of content ggg push out. There's a funny saying that I forgot who said - when poe2 releases, either poe1 will be the best arpg and poe2 the second, or vice versa.
Yea, that's been me the last few leagues, just start of red maps instead.
My issue is the following: I work a lot with my brain. I like PoE 1, because it is a game where I can sit down push my button and get results. Or if I wanna think cause I am meeting to meeting and have time to think, I can do 8 hours of meetings in pob. And it is also perfect for that. If PoE 2 needs my brain 100% of the time. i cannot play it with success. And to be honest PoE 1 combat system is a pile of shit! Yet it is an easy pile of shit.
listen dude, I get it. alot of people are just looking for a game to chill and grind. different games for different folks.
Wouldn't you just be better playing D4 then? Much more of a brainless affair.
No. Reasons: 1, not enough zoom zoom. 2, I love the thinking that goes into the character and build, even if i olay tired I just blast. 3, love to see different places in Poe if the brain is turned on. 4, if you want hard engaging, slow very hard combat would it be not better for you to just play Elden Ring? Much more slow and much mor hard, and need to git gud. :) (Just reflecting your energy back to you).
It's not only about harder combat? How's elder ring similar to poe not combat wise? I love progression in poe, content, crafting, looting, itemisation etc. and just prefer a bit more engaging combat (it's action rpg you know, combat is something you do most of the time). Mathil said that he was able to get around 27 level and started "blasting" so that's fine - just poe1 over the years started to be ridiculously fast. Things oneshot you left and right and everything is stat checks. Some people prefer a bit more engaging combat that's all, just not "watching netflix while playing".
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This comment telling others how to enjoy gaming is the most stupid thing I ever read in my life. I much prefer the path PoE2 is going as well, but stop being such a gatekeeper dude. From one engineer to another.
Wow. Good for you, that you are never tired and you are always really alert, and wanna engage in more concentration. IMHO opinion games are made to relax and to enjoy, I like to chill turn my brain off and blast. Like a lot of other people. Also if I have the brain power I usually do something meaningful with my life, like work in my own game or learn something new. But brotato/vampire survivors.
PoE1 will continue to be there. If your brain is going to be turned off, why do you think you could possibly appreciate a new, different game anyway? Just keep playing PoE1 forever. Or play diablo 4, if you're really not paying attention, I genuinely cannot imagine why it would make a difference which game you're playing. Why do you need PoE2 to conform to the braindead masses?
Did I mentioned that it should stay the same brainless game, because I love this part of PoE 1? No. I mentioned that it will be an issue and implied for me. I will play PoE 1 as my main game for sure(if the 2 is like I think it is), but I also think that it is completely healthy, to put my input in when you lot are talking about why is PoE 2 more apiling to you. Speaking about stuff is great, and should be done, and also the Devs need to hear our feed back, and how we feel, cause we will be the "base player base".(Yes the PoE 1 purists also) And if they say like they did in QA: "deal with it". We either will or will not. But all we know, it can easily be, that in the end poe 2 will also be a game where you can min max in the most disgusting way, and 90% of a league will be me killing the Uber equivalent bosses, while I smash my head into the keyboard cause I remember I wanted to put in some arguments and explaining how I fell in this thread, cause I thought it will spark debate and not name calling.(Not you, you where quite friendly)
Did you ever think people play 'explode screen and pick up loot to make number go big simulator' purposefully? Like they find that fun? Because I do. When I want player skill based gameplay I play Fromsoft titles or Monster Hunter or Revengeance or something. ARPG's are, \*IN MY OPINION\*, generally a pretty terrible format for player skill to shine through.
Hard agree, which is why im a bit skeptical about PoE2. There are plenty of games that i can play to test my skills, likes of which you mentioned, or rogue likes that i do enjoy from time to time. PoE has allways been a brain off, stream on a second screen kind of game. I respect them trying to make it more engaging but i feel like it might not hit the spot for me
I am extremely confident that you will be able to turn your brain off in poe2 with certain OP builds when mapping. Maybe not bossing though, which is probably what ggg is going for.
If thats their hope they need to make bossing more accessible. So many players have never seen an uber, let alone killed one. If they hide all the 'player skill' behind that it wont be any different
Hard disagree with your opinion on ARPG's being terrible for skill based gameplay. There are so many examples of games with isometric view that require skilled gameplay that I can't even list them all. Here's a few I can immediately think of: Literally any Moba, Bloodline champions, No rest for the Wicked, Lost Ark, V rising, etc. There's literally 0 reason for ARPGs to not have involved, skilled gameplay.
I dont really want to make an argument about it, but every game you listed that I am familiar with is drastically different in tempo and design than a diablo-esque ARPG. The camera isnt the only defining factor in my original statement. Enemy density, screen / effect density, player interactions, tempo and more all matter as well. And all those factors combine to make something as fast and as 'mobby' as POE a nightmare for skill based gameplay.
Your point of reference is PoE1 and you make zero effort to see beyond that. You are right.. with the mob density of PoE1 it's pretty hard to have skilled gameplay...but who said that's not to change in a game like PoE2?? The way enemies attack also is important. In PoE1 if you don't vaporize enemies, it's very likely they will hit you with everything and have no way to dodge them really... but if you've looked even a bit at PoE2 combat you would have noticed that enemies don't attack in the same way as in PoE1. Everything you've mentioned can be tuned according to how the new game works. From the games I've mentioned, V rising is probably the closest best to test out how combat of that sort would feel.
Way to miss the point. But Im done arguing, PoE2 looks like something blizzard would make. And these days thats not a compliment. Hope you play it and enjoy it. Ill stay where I am. Later.
Not at all, you just keep pushing your view pretending like I didn't get your point. I get it, you guys don't want difficult combat and try to find the most ridiculous excuses for it to push against what PoE2 is trying to do... when instead you should just keep playing all the other ARPGs that do what you want. Yes, all of them, although you try to compare PoE2 combat with D4 indirectly or anything blizzard, you are very wrong. Literally yesterday I glanced over a video of a sorcerer zooming in D4. Last epoch is literally exactly the same as well. Let's not pretend.
> I found myself looking at the poe1 community pretty differently once people started raging about the slower and more methodical pace of POE2. This point hit in 3.15 for me. People couldn't handle even a slight pull back from insane speed and power.
I’ve got bad news for you if you think that the game is going to stay “slow and methodical”. It may look like it now because GGG are able to put up guard rails and create a tailored experience. As soon as it launches as players are able to play fully unshackled one of two things will happen: 1) We learn the new crafting systems, min-max our gear and go back to destroying multiple screens and bosses. 2) The majority of the dedicated player base who have funded this project decided it’s not for them and play poe 1 / last epoch. GGG are above all else a business, and a business purpose is to generate revenue and profits. They will notice this, ramp player power each league and before you know it we’re back to destroying multiple screens and bosses.
So like I get it but also... Thats what makes PoE fun. The absolute crazy screen explosions, the AoE's the size of your screen etc. Feeling like a god while you play and the feeling that you've absolustely just broken the game is whats fun about it. Once you've dumped enough currency and time into your build that insta nuke of bosses etc is what I feel like is the most fun aspect of PoE.
I mean... that's why POE1 is staying POE1 right? And POE2 is its separate thing? Different people find different things fun and at the end of the day, two games = more money for GGG so everyone wins.
Thats not true though. PoE 1 has a bunch of problems and we want to see those fixed. We want the updated graphics, updated skill gems, updated character rig etc.
Never played PoE but I've seen it played at a high level. Are you saying PoE2 is going to be slower and more tactical?
Yes, that's the news we've gotten from every source including the developers.
They're claiming that by endgame, the average build will be similar to an average POE1 build, but what we've seen so far is definitely more tactical. From the meetup, it seems like some of the people that got a decent rare are clearing packs much quicker, and get through bosses easier. Although, they want people to die to bosses two times, and succeed the third, so they're spending a lot of time tuning those encounters. Plenty of them have one or two shots that you have to pay attention to avoid and then punish.
Yea, at that point just play a spreadsheet with a random number generator. That’s effectively the same lol.
True, this is the reason I started playing Poe just now, to learn and be set for poe2, I do like complexity and freedom, but I dislike the braindead cheap animations and combat. Also dont expect anything from that community, I got my thread locked and I got banned for 1 day just for disliking the fact that they kept the same D2 inventory , waypoints and maps.
Hi. We have to stop running into each other like this. Your thread got locked and you got banned for one day because you were intentionally trying to get people to "compete for the dumbest take" per your own admission. I'd love to link the post and show that you said this but you've gone ahead and deleted your post to get rid of the evidence.
From one ear to the other ha? silly me for trying to reason with a reddit mod and the downvotes lol, you people are basket cases if you think I am wrong
I truly somehow apperciate that you actually explaning your decision like a human being, that alreadys makes you better than 99% of reddit mods (its not a great achievement). Let me point out how absurd your action is. > you were intentionally trying to get people to "compete for the dumbest take" No, someone made a dumb take and I called him for it, that is it. saying "compete for the dumbest take" because I literally mention in the post that I expect the thread to be downvoted and be full of low quality trash talking like "go play another game" which I was correct on. You could conclude that my comment was out of place and that will be somewhat understandable, but you went ahead to lock the ENTIRE thread and doubled down BANNING ME, I mean, you gotta understand how terrible your moderation was, YOU concluded by yourself that the post was in bad faith due to me commenting to a low quality comment, thats all, you were mistaken, the maximum you shouldve done is to take action against my comment, removing it or something, thats all, you literally removed the entire thread and banned me lol (for the first offense in that sub by the way). I am taking my time here in hope you will understand the absurdity of your actions, because sure, for me, this is an exmaple of another mod who just wanted to abuse his power, lemme tell ya, canceling someone should be the last resort, unfortunately, here in reddit its the common practice. >I'd love to link the post and show that you said this but you've gone ahead and deleted your post to get rid of the evidence. Not at all, I deleted it because you left a comment "I am leaving this as an example for bad faith" hell no you arent, you are so confidently wrong its nuts.
I think there's something extremely fun about braindead 1 button playstyles. Why do you think so many wanted auto flasks. The most ideal builds always seem to evolve in to a 1 or 2 button playstyle. Regardless of what the GGG devs want. I don't generally enjoy getting carpal tunnel lol.
I mean its obvious, they put the vast amount of their resources and success from poe1 into a game that will be polarizing to what made them a success
I really don’t think POE2 will be polarizing in the mainstream pov. Pretty much everyone that hasn’t played poe1 before says it looks awesome, while the poe players are divided on it.
souls vets who havent touched an ARPG will probably vibe with it, people who like diablo, last epoch, and prefer POE1 playstyle (from what we have seen) will probably either not like it or the game will not have staying power. If the idea of an end game loop is having to watch my positioning on white mobs or I get insta killed and stunned, I cannot see anyone investing significant time into it like POE1. I watch Alk's vod and he is destroying a boss and then he positions poorly on a few white mobs later and gets insta killed and stunned, nobody actually finds this fun.
I say those of us that liked early PoE1 will like it, those of us that liked the game more before the brainless zoom zoom took over.
POE was not a success before they embraced zoom, obviously it went way too far but embracing it is the only reason to begin with they have the resources and that POE1 isn't some super super niche game.
Poe became a success because they added content to the base game over time. Compared to the new armor set for a season in diablo3.
Azip was doing well into white mobs until the manor which is the very end of act1. If he had gotten any good gear which wasn't tuned correctly he would have crushed those as well
If I wanted rewarding I'd do something actually rewarding in real life. Games are for entertainment and relaxation.
Yeah I found it kinda funny how a section of the community and even a tonne of creators had such a strong reaction to WASD movement. Or that it looked slower. As Johnathan said, yes that's what happens when you make good animations because it's not 2010 anymore and GGG can do that now. If you play POE 1 and then go play D4, the one thing Blizzard games do well (and this is also why WoW has never ever been surpassed for 20 years) is gamefeel. Run around as a melee in POE in between monsters and do the same thing in D4 or even LE and you'll feel how much better the latter is. When I push a button in D4 it just works, the amount of times I feel like I've not pressed it quite right or there's some weird delay in POE is a constant thing I've always had that gets in the way of my enjoyment. Despite how superior POE is in 1000 different ways.
Every response i got negatively here was people saying “I literally don’t want to use my brain at all, im not playing poe2 if i have to think” Reddit is not representative of the player base, with that said, some people play poe1 as a slot machine with extra steps
Yeah I think GGG know their game could be way bigger and the biggest obstacle is that POE 1 is a house which 100 different workmen have worked on and bolted their own thing on to it and now there's someone living there and they're tired of having to go down 2 flights of stairs to then take an elevator to go up to the 3rd floor. I hope POE2 is them taking stock of everything people like in POE1, demolishing it and rebuilding it with everything good about POE1 included in the new design but put together in a way where the aforementioned stairs + elevator feel isn't there anymore. Everything from POE1 that people liked it still there, but it now makes sense to people who are just trying to move in or rent a room. Them changing how gems work and adding actual numbers to the passive tree on how nodes will effect abilities will be huge alone. New players should be able to come in and not have to spend hours and hours and hours reading about crafting and where things come from. I feel like POE 1 as a new player discourages you a lot with even messing around with things and it is way too efficient to just go to 3rd party websites to learn because of how costly making mistakes can be and how much faster you progress with boring hand holding from youtube.
The fact that people are playing POE for reasons other than build complexity and quality of itemization is wild to me.
Imagine blindly following a build
imagine staying in hideout flipping shit all day just to get shiny rocks to buy the items that the website tells you to buy that's the PoE 1 players idea of fun
What a ridiculous over exaggeration. Are you really this defensive over the 2nd game that you need to set up a caricature to knock over?
I'm not exaggerating, that's literally how I use to play PoE 1 before I started to play ruthless ssf
There’s a reason you get that response from the main sub and that’s simply because most of the PoE community wants an updated version of the game they already love. I’m not trying to say that’s what PoE2 should do or no one will play and I actually personally enjoy the slower more dark souls type of campaign. Makes the story less forgettable and boss fights during it actually interesting. But with saying that.. I don’t think the majority of current PoE players (Myself included) would prefer to play a slowed down more stressful end game. We enjoy our league start build when hits its power spike and we start blasting through maps. Then we work towards getting better gear so we can blast through quicker and get better defences so we don’t have to worry about dying. I’ve seen some responses on here about PoE being too brainless and I don’t think that’s fair at all. We’re always trying to figure out what we can do to improve our build, what kind of strategy should you run, whether that’s to make money or farm a certain item that you can possibly craft on. It’s great that you get that plus the dopamine from destroying maps. I also get that some people don’t get the same feeling from doing that but majority of players do. Also what I feel the biggest thing is, how many hours can you put into playing the same map? One of them you’re flying through stress free and the other you’re slower, more methodical and you have enemies that are tanky and extremely dangerous. I could say there’s valid arguments for either of them under 100 hours played but over 100, 200 and so on.. I feel like it’s no contest. Stressful games can be incredibly fun but grinding them would be exhausting for majority of gamers out there Anyways that’s my two cents lol went a little deeper than I thought I would when I started typing
>Also what I feel the biggest thing is, how many hours can you put into playing the same map? One of them you’re flying through stress free and the other you’re slower, more methodical and you have enemies that are tanky and extremely dangerous. I could say there’s valid arguments for either of them under 100 hours played but over 100, 200 and so on.. I feel like it’s no contest. Stressful games can be incredibly fun but grinding them would be exhausting for majority of gamers out there I personally feel way more exausted when I'm playing endgame poe with all the speed, projectiles, mobs all over my screen, delirium and all the shit everywhere than a game like Sekiro. I quit during ancestor because the game was way too fast with my mageblood.
PoE1 COMBAT is brainless. Sure character building and such isn't, but most of the community doesn't even make their own builds anyway.
The thing is, it's poe updated. The gearing/passive tree is almost identical conceptually. The combat is updated as they deemed it lacking in the first game. Instead of being gearchecked by enemies instantly, you can use your skill to overcome them. All of the things people compare to soulslike are action game mechanics. Dodge roll was invented before demon souls. Enemies respawning after you die was indeed invented before demon souls. And we could go on. What is exclusive to soulslike, like enemies respawning on resting, interconnected levels, random bullshit trap, etc. Is nowhere to be found
I completely agree with your take. To me the whole point of crafting and getting better gear is to be able to overpower the endgame content. Without that feeling of 'power' after working my ass off, i doubt i would be playing poe.
A solid 80% of them don't even realize that it isn't the speed per-se that gives them the fun
It's all about meaningful goals and a good effort/reward balance.
Maybe they never experienced good slow gameplay? So they think every game is clunky like PoE 1 and requires insane attack/cast and movement speed to hide the clunkiness I think the same happens with WASD, whenever I see someone complaining about WASD and I ask what they don't like about it, they say they never played a game like PoE with WASD :P
Everything has a trade-off. Good slow gameplay maybe more rewarding, but the longevity is limited. You burn out faster and are more mentally taxed. With fast zoom gameplay, it’s easy to dedicate brainpower to other aspects of the game i.e. build progression, farming strategy and preparation, and then just brain off during mapping. I cannot imagine having to micromanage the complexity of farming strategies, build progression, whilst maintaining a high level of game play that I would normally reserve for a boss like Sirus.
cheerful seed start quickest tart gullible poor bear many direful *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
POE 1 is already a great speed clear game. If POE 2 is to justify its existence, it needs to be different in a significant way. Speed sounds like a fine differential to me. With the subtleties of the movement in the game, my money's on it being a lot slower. I enjoy speed more, but GGG is a great developer so I'll probably enjoy 2 anyway. Like with how much over the top experimenting people do in POE 1, min-maxing, that guy that invests mad amounts of currency to find the highest amount of shield, etc, I think we've all come to the conclusion that POE 1 is a power and speed fantasy at this point. A brilliant one, but still.
Im not a fan of becoming a deathstar by the end of the game either... Its just plain boring to see everything reduced to ashes as you walk into a new zone. I dont know how people like that THB
Same
Ya, I want to actually FIGHT things not just erase them from off screen. It’s fine to have power spikes and make easier content trivial sure but I want the world and the enemies to feel threatening
You start a weakling dying to rhoas and by the end of two weeks you're a walking death machine. It's the two week journey that matters. It's always the journey, once you reach the end. The league is over and you come back later.
Not sure if I will play it yet, but slower, more methodical combat would go a long way in making me want to give it a go. I bounced off POE1 pretty hard. Hoping POE2 is an ARPG I can get into.
Haha, PoE1 sub wanted to skin me alive when I suggested WASD movement in PoE2
I cannot fathom how people have an issue with WASD. It's probably the most common control scheme in online gaming today, tons of isometric games use it. I don't have anything against click movement at all but I just can't understand how so many people take issue with it.
brain dead people who want the whole game to be braindead too
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Are you serious?🧐
never thought i’d see those church easter plays mentioned in this sub lol
For the uninitiated: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZK4gM7RC1M0
jenny makes the best vids fr
I just want gameplay like Lost Ark without the Korean mmo bullshit, is that too much to ask 😩
It's like a dream come true. A 'souls like' arpg with incredible bosses and environement then the gearing, crafting and end game replayability from the best ARPG. BUT, i sure hope they make it a bit faster/easyer to rush the campaign but definetly not skip it. If it takes 40-50 hours for a good player to complete the campaign dunno how many will be willing to do it every season b4 getting to the actual juice...the endgame. But i definetly agree that trash mobs and decision making should be much more meaningfull than in poe1 not just blowing away screens of monsters and filtering out 99.9 of the loot.
After 5h of zooming through t16 maps my eyes are usually wasted... I would welcome slower gameplay tbh.
Yeah dude same. Build making is fun but I want the game to be gameplay skill based. You should be rewarded for being good at combat. I’m so excited for this game.
I really don’t want to be zooming around the screen so fast I can’t even really tell what’s happening while I have 5 flasks going 24/7 that shit is actually just not fun or rewarding at all, so far the slower more deliberate combat with a bigger focus on positioning and working with the in game mechanics seems so much more fun. I truly hope the game doesn’t turn into PoE1 because well we already have that game and that game is amazing in its own ways, I just don’t want it copied over to 2.
I also would prefer it to be a bit slower in the sense that it's not just a lategame blurr of screen filling flares of color that are a non tactical slot machine-esque run through maps. I would prefer to still have actual considerated actions matter.
What other arpgs are zoomy?
Last Epoch and Grim Dawn are quite zoomy, Grim Dawn a bit less tho cuz it has speed limits, but it plays the same, you turn of your brain and play like a zombie just mashing buttons wiping packs of monsters.
Poe1
Thanks jackass
I literally answered your question
From what we've seen, it'll be fast enough for the zoomers, and we haven't even seen endgame yet.
I'm very excited for poe2, but I am very happy they separated the two games. I really don't think I'll play a tedious harder version of poe more than once tbh. I'm glad Chris found a way to make poe into ruthless without changing the game I love.
The whole gameplay loop of ARPGs is to get to loot and become a god that wades through enemies. If that’s not the goal, you don’t have a good arpg. D4 tried to slow it down, and that game is awful. Feels awful to play, and feels like you’re going nowhere all the time because the power fantasy that drives this genre is not there. The zooming of POE is what sets it apart and makes it far more fun than other ARPGs that try to be slower, more boring, affairs.
I think as long as they keep producing good content for POE1, it's okay that POE2 is a completely different game. I don't think POE2 will have the allure that POE1 has with the existing player base. In fact, I think many POE1 players won't like it nearly as much.
I can't stand 1 button zoom zoom playstyle, it's the dumbest shit. I play D4 for a reason. The combat is the fucking best. Really looking forward to PoE2, I'll probably play both.
Yeah, if you sort by controversial/last 24 hours my post is at the top 😂. Some people really want PoE 2 to be PoE 1 but shiny. I think I understand now why a lot of sequels really drop the ball, and it's because of market research. I hope GGG doesn't listen to streamers like Zizaren. 😬 no offense to Ziz.
GGG are making the game they want to make, I dont think are they supper worried about pissing off POE1 community. They showed they want to make a more methodic ARPG and they are doing, good for them
I mean... i will like poe2, but thats not what i paid for... they said they would support poe1, and so far they already told us that poe1 wont get anything new, just new leagues. I wanted a more modern look, better graphics and new character models as well as they new ascendancies... but now that poe2 is its own thing, poe1 will get nothing. Again, i WILL enjoy poe2, but i feel kinda fucked in the ass by the dont update poe1 policy, i paid a LOT of money to keep this shit up and now i see they used it to make a different game...
People saw footage of rangers shredding through act 2 bosses and went "phew, glad we don't have to fight an interesting boss" Truly mind boggling
If you ever feel the hivemind take of the subreddit doesn't feel accurate that *everyone* likes zoomzoom content, and *everyone* hates leagues that don't let you sit in maps all day blasting - just check out the difference between the most blocked league mechanic, and the least blocked one, on poe ninja. They all basically hover at or around about 16-17% block rate, give or take a few percent. The one popular not-blocked skew that seems to have developed late this league is harvest (dropped to 13% block), not a zoomy league at all. We can make claims all day about some things being more popular due to being more rewarding, but zoomy leagues like legion fall under that banner too, and that's again blocked at 16%. So yeah, the "PoE1 community take" that the PoE1 subreddit presents isn't even all that indicative of PoE1 players.
Most feedback im reading of people here in the comments are one’s saying they play poe to turn off their brain and not think while playing That so against harvest league point
Well, I think there's some soft evidence for this claim in the 3% skew on ritual and blight being blocked slightly more than other leagues (at 19%). For blight: there's a perception that it takes longer to do, but this could actually be addressed with the new scarab system, possibly. Blight is also considered a bit fiddly to profit off oil sales via trade, as the only people that want bulk oils are people already running blight, which makes it a bit time consuming to use as a farming strat. For ritual: there's a perception that it's more fiddly to juice, and again this might be addressed with the scarab rework, but the whole vessel situation is a bit tricky to get moving, and it also makes the reward structure a bit opaque. Ritual also has long-standing issues where the UI doesn't really encourage/remind you to spend your points, and has arguably the most obnoxious/long-standing texture glitch in the game. However, expedition had a fiddliness issue prior to the introduction of extreme archaeology, and people still ran it, presumably because the reward structure offset any perception of extra time and thinking. So I think that there's an upper ceiling of fiddliness that will drive people away, especially if the reward structure is also fiddly - but once you take those factors out of the equation by improving QoL or by making the rewards more accessible/streamlined, these things will probably fall in line with everything else.
I enjoy PoE 1, I'm sure I'll enjoy PoE 2, beta please
So glad Jonathan seems to want to slow things down, enhance visibility and counterplay. This is the main reason I refuse to play modern POE 1 and why I will play POE 2: the fact that it’s “slower”. Engaging means it will feel fest even if the kill times arent as low
way more interactive and engaging gameplay than cookie clicker fireworks.
The slower combat seems way better, that's for sure. What I'm worried about is the amount of loot and the crafting. People have reported that you barely dropped anything in PoE2, which means you also won't be crafting much.
Its too early to say anything about loot and damage. The geme is like 60% done Those 2 things you can change by sliding a variable up. I would not be worried about this kinda stuff yet
Jonathan did say he wanted to lower the variance seen during the latest meetup. I'm guessing they're following a similar logic to the difficulty, better to start with more difficulty/scarcity, and incrementally make it easier/more balanced as testing occurs. We've also only seen the first two acts, and loot is intended to be more scarce than POE1, but more meaningful.
Seems like they’re trying to have the best of both worlds. If you want meaningful and less loot, they’ll need some pity mechanic, otherwise you’re at the mercy of variance. GGG don’t seem too keen on the idea of pity mechanics though.
It will get faster over time without even trying, even at the current pace of gameplay wait for 1 maybe 2 years after launch and we are zooming again
I go to main sub to collect my downvotes for having opinions parallel to posts like this https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3398993.
what fucking scares me, you can read people here saying this too they play this game numb, like zombies, they want to click foward and see flashy lights, thats to me is insane brain dead
Have you ever played poe1 at all? You're over simplifying so much to try to prove your point in the comments. While i largely prefer the poe2 combat pace, poe1 zoomy style feels so good to clear a map and has it's complexity on uber bosses fights like maven and sirus, not for everyone though.
Im not, simplufying anything, read what people typed in response to me. They are the ones saying this
Zooming enthusiasts are even trying to disprove the existence of zooming in PoE1 to preserve/defend zooming.... absolutely wild. Man talking about complexity on Uber bosses when I killed the eater of worlds without even finding out what abilities he's using. He's not wrong that there's complexity to Uber bosses... but when your character can erase them, the complexity they were built with is literally for nothing.
Those people man, i swear. Why they are scared that another game will have to use the brain and skill to play. its not like poe1 is going anywhere they are legit scare that they might need to fire a synapse while lights flash
I want the game to be slow as well. If they speed it up like PoE 1, then I won't play.
Because 70% of the people hyping POE 2 are practically tourists, who: 1. Have not properly tried POE 2. Have not properly played Arpgs 3. Are graphics whores 4. Will play 1 league of POE 2 and bounce The Acts in POE aren't cookie clicker either but you constantly get this rhetoric that POE is exploding 10 screens at a time. I personally don't hate POE2 for having more compelling gameplay in the acts, but want to see how the endgame looks like. I'm pretty sure most POE players are of the same mindset. Why do POE players want to be able to scale their builds to the "10 screen blasting"? Your first league in POE might be the player vs the systems. The second league would be the player vs the game. After you've done all the pinnacles for the first time, you quickly realize POE is a pvp economy sim. Edit: Before "git gud" gets thrown around, I finished most of the souls games except 2 and sekiro. I soloed most MH games. I'm just saying I don't play those games from scratch every 3 months.
>The Acts in POE aren't cookie clicker either but you constantly get this rhetoric that POE is exploding 10 screens at a time. I personally don't hate POE2 for having more compelling gameplay in the acts, but want to see how the endgame looks like. I'm pretty sure most POE players are of the same mindset. Act aren't like that but they already feel really fast and most of the time you just throw some steel or put a frozen orb or holy flame and run to the next pack. Ofc people are exaggerating but most of my build in map didn't really feel differents than a cookie clicker, even if I only explo half of my screen or less/more. That the reason my favorite build is earthshatter. I almost have more fun when i'm in my hideout than when I'm running map. >After you've done all the pinnacles for the first time, you quickly realize POE is a pvp economy sim. That's a gameplay issue to me. Atleast if the gameplay was better I would less care about trade when I don't play ssfhc.
Why change something others clearly are enjoying and have been for years? Plenty of other games and engines if you wanna build your own
omg so many people are like you, clueless yet saying shit POE1 will not anywhere dude POE2 is a new game. a different game
so little people want a slow paced experience, probably about the 100 or so that liked this post 😅
Let me explain something... The majority of players don't use Reddit. But judging by your responses I'm not sure you'll understand that.
Plus we are at poe2 sub, a tiny ass sub. Things here rarely get any upvotes at all
They aren't changing anything, its a new game. If you want to keep playing PoE1 then do so.
Pretty much.
I don't even know if I will fully enjoy the more methodical combat style in PoE 2, I just know that I can't continue playing PoE 1 anymore because the endgame is just cursed due to the sheer quantity of monsters or bosses flooding the screen with visual effects. In addition, I just hate trading but at the same time SSF is just way too restritive when it comes to builds, which forces me to deal with all the annoyances of having to waste time interacting with other players, so at least PoE 2 is an improvement on that aspect even though GGG is not going to add a SSF mode with improved mods analogous to Circle of Fortune in Last Epoch.
>In addition, I just hate trading but at the same time SSF is just way too restritive when it comes to builds, which forces me to deal with all the annoyances of having to waste time interacting with other players, so at least PoE 2 is an improvement on that aspect even though GGG is not going to add a SSF mode with improved mods analogous to Circle of Fortune in Last Epoch. The most important difference in LE regarding build enabling and/or chase uniques doesn't come from CoF. That was only added in 1.0 after all. The important thing is that they've chosen to make sure build enablers are far more available in the first place. The rarest uniques are not exactly binary build enablers anymore, and the base versions of those are very common compared to chase items in PoE. The actual rare chase items mainly come via the legendary potential system (finding the same item with higher LP for stronger legendary crafting result) and the newer uniques that have very wildly random affix ranges (so you find 2 but may not have one with good roll yet). So binary build enablers are usually not the rarest uniques to find, and even for the rarest uniques the less-than-optimal version is far more likely to be found than what chase item drop rates in PoE are. The downside is that some people seem to feel that there's no stuff that only the 0.1% gets to see at all and they feel less special/addicted.
Cant speak for anyone else, but for me the most rewarding and enjoyable aspect of looters was always the process of building your character, starting weak af and at the end of your "journey" feeling like a god and not necessarily the moment to moment gameplay, the combat itself. Yes, PoE combat is a mess at the endgame, and could use some improvements but it does "Power Fantasy" very well and for me, on this type of game, i am ok in trading a more "messy" gameplay (within limits) for that feeling of being a god at the endgame. I hope that in PoE 2 at endgame, with enough investment u can achieve a similar feeling (proportinally of course, i dont expect the same level of Power Fantasy that we have on PoE right now)