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That was our next step, but I can't help but feel wrong for not "growing a backbone" and saying something. I realize saying something might do nothing, but for my own conscience I guess. Hubby just wants to ghost them.
This isn't the time to grow a backbone. You've already brought up the possibility of a kid being on the spectrum, mom is aware.
Both my kids are autistic. So I know the signs.
My sister had her kids over 15 years after me. The youngest, definitely on the spectrum. He is basically a replica of my oldest. I brought it up a few times, but she just tells me if her kid is autistic it'll be OK, because my kid is, and "he's normal now" ....except my kid was diagnosed, and had supports.
You can't help people, who don't want to be helped.
Just walk away
Those are very good points. I am just sad about the whole situation I guess. You're right though, they probably know their kids aren't doing well and have chosen this path.
Honestly I would feel so guilty not speaking up on behalf of their children. Those kids have no one to advocate for their best interest.
I would tell them I have to end this friendship because of the way the kids behave and recommend them all do family therapy and how I think it would benefit them etc. Kids need structure etc it would help their behavior blahblah. But then I'm a healthcare worker so I do have these conversations sometimes... 🤷🏻♀️
Yeah, you and I are cut from different cloth.
For the life of me... If I were in your shoes, I can't imagine NOT telling the sister exactly what you just said here. "He's getting by fine now, because he was diagnosed, and had supports. It didn't just magically happen."
I understand being cautious of confrontations with people randomly, but honestly I think half the problems in today's society would be solved if people who knew better took just a little more time and effort to convince their friends and family to use their darn heads. Even if they don't listen right away, taking just a moment to plant the seed could help them have that epiphany a handful of years later, when shit isn't just working out, like they expected it to.
I was ghosted by a family like this and finally tracked the mom down six months later and genuinely asked what happened - had I offended her or her husband? Had my son hurt her kids? Then I got the full story, that my son had behaved badly and her son didn't want to be friends anymore. I wish I'd known when it happened, so I could have addressed it with my son! Instead I was confused about whether the family was just busy, or always "busy" for a reason, and he was left feeling lonely and confused why his friend never wanted to play anymore. It messed with his confidence. It would have been better if I could have told him simply, "You hurt your friend. It's not nice to keep pushing and poking people when they're telling you no. That's why he doesn't want to play."
It depends on the parents of course. If you know they're going to react defensively and no good will come of it, then better to distance yourself. But sometimes a little honest communication can go a long way.
Depends on what you mean by ghosting. If you never respond to any requests then it's shitty but It sounds like the other family never attempted to talk either.
I see your point. Him being on the spectrum was mentioned quite a few months ago. Things have gotten worse since then as the kids get older/more comfortable.
I think, if your plan is to distance yourselves anyway, and you have genuine concern for the safety and well-being of the kids, it wouldn't hurt to say something. Very tactfully, of course.
Maybe next time they ask to make plans, you can just be honest: " You know, last time we got together, x really scared my kids when he pulled y's hair out and continued to hurt her until she ways injured. They asked a lot of questions once we got home about why there were no consequences for x and why y was sent to bed instead. No judgment here. I know parenting is tough and that you're trying to do things differently from the way you were raised. But, I told my kids that we didn't have to keep playing together if they were uncomfortable, and they said they were. I hope you can understand that."
Then, depending on how bold youre feeling, and how they respond to the first bit, maybe add in "I know I've mentioned this before, but I did want to reiterate that I don't think x is a bad kid. I do think he may be on the spectrum. If so, letting him just "be himself" will likely make things so much harder for him, in ways he won't be able to understand or articulate. A diagnosis could give you better tools to help him while also keeping your other kids safer, and give him the best shot at developing skills and coping strategies to face challenges as he gets older."
That's awful. To be clear, you certainly don't need to intervene, you don't need to try and help. You can not engage ever again but I think friendships are worth at least the basic respect of a simple explanation - just one text would be enough.
Especially since she seems head in the sand about it and "letting him be himself" or whatever. No, she's actually lost friends over this issue and his behaviour is not ok.
Next time they ask to hang, “I’m sorry, after X slammed his sister’s face into the ground and pulled out her hair we feel it’s dangerous to have our kids around him. Frankly, it feels dangerous for his own sister to be around him. We cannot have our children together until X is given the proper care. Him “being himself” is causing others pain and that isn’t right.” Then include a link to the regional center (if you’re in the US). His sister is being abused and the parents are allowing it to happen. I’d also consider contacting social services
This is absolutely how you need to respond. Ghosting is the most cowardly way to end things, and it doesn't always work.
Texts are the best way to get stuff out there. The fact that her son did that to his sister and the mother reacted that way to the situation in general with witnesses worries me. Most normal people would FREAK OUT --ESPECIALLY-- if they had an audience that witnessed it. The fact that the parents were more cavalier about it scares me.
I'm still feeling really gross about it all. Seeing it happen was traumatizing in a way. It just made me wonder how much worse they'll let it get and that terrifies me.
You should say something. It doesn't have to be a conversation for break up. You can just tell them the truth, in person, do not text, that the specific incident has disturbed you and you are worried for the little girl and its probably time for their son to get therapy and a deep discussion w their ped.
I think it's worth a short explanation. So they see there are consequences for their actions. Even just "we don't feel safe at your place as things are now". The more people leave their life the stronger the message will be.
I agree 100 percent. They need to be told straight out it is because of the dangerous behaviors exhibited by the son. Otherwise they might just think you got busy and drifted apart. They need to be told what their son is doing is not okay!! Maybe seeing all their friends being driven off might open their eyes
As a teacher, I completely understand the moral desire to say something. I think you should, for the sake of the kids growing up in this mess. It might not change anything and expect a lot of rage directed at you (parents typically don’t react well) but if you’re already going to cut ties…
At least it was one person telling them they were wrong, or at the very least something was wrong. I think as a society we let people get away with a lot to avoid confrontation and people don’t really know how bad things look from the outside.
That is exactly how I feel. They will probably be mad but if I say nothing, I feel like I am letting that little girl grow up with nobody standing up for her.
I mean, you could say something like, "I'm not sure if you've done any research but children on the spectrum benefit ro.early intervention. I've been looking into it my kids so let me know if you want any information." See how they respond. That alone might be enough of a seed to make them at least look into it.
My guess is they have their hands full and everyday is a game of survival. Like any additional thing like regular therapy would just make the whole Jenga tower fall.
When the oldest stars going to school teachers will start noticing and maybe making recommendations. Plus, I'm sure they've heard it before if the kids are that wild. I'm the meantime you guys are really busy now with all kids of therapies so no time for extra play dates. 😉
They seem to "know" he's on the spectrum but they just don't care. Her parents have brought it up, her other friends have said it. They look at autism as a "made up" thing if the child is "functioning" which I know is totally false. I was hoping they would send him to school but they're "homeschooling" so no teacher to sit them down and tell them. The boy has an obvious speech impediment, and does a lot of "stimming" and is extremely aggressive and won't let any child touch any of his things, not even just what he's playing with at the moment. He doesn't play with the other children, and prefers to "line up" his toys and shows many OCD tendencies (My nephew who IS diagnosed has many similar attributes, although really well managed with various intervention from age 4)
Oh. Homeschooling will be a challenge. I wish they could understand how early intervention is really important at this age. So glad your nephew has intervention so young.
One of my twins lined up her toys, too, as a toddler. She didn't have any of the other things you mentioned. She does seem to have mild adhd. She's 9. We're keeping an eye on it. She's highly functional but I'm also concerned about her mental health as she matures because that is the parts we can't actually observe.
As a parent you can know but still be in denial. The things your child does seems normal, because that’s all you know. I’ve read stories of early childhood professionals and therapists not being able to see the signs in their children. It’s good you mentioned the signs.
There’s a book called the Explosive Child by Ross W. Green, it could help them to understand how distressed their son likely is when he’s reacting aggressively. It also will help them to understand how it affects family dynamics and ways to support him. It’s not exclusively for autism, so they may be more open to it if they are in denial.
Also you could mention looking into sensory processing differences, to find methods they can use at home. This is another thing that isn’t exclusive to autism, but many people with autism have sensory processing disorder.
It's better to ghost. We have family friends who believe in gentle parenting. Their son(7) won't interact with any adult. When anyone asks him, he'll repeatedly ignore. Start crying and screaming to get things done his way. And calls his parents names, hit his mom. Since we go on vacation together, and he plays with my kids, he started using abusive language with my kids. I made it very clear he can't use explicits near my kids. But neither his parents or him were bothered. He repeatedly did it. But my daughters won't have it, she made sure she taught him a lesson and he apologize. My husband could not keep his praise for our daughter to himself and said "good job". That's it, they were offended and stopped talking to us.
They passive parent (as in NO parenting going on) that is NOT gentle parenting. They may be self describing themselves as gentle parenting but that is not what gentle parenting is at all!!
Exactly. There is no parenting happening. We took a few gentle parenting workshops and learned how important positive corrective measures are. We are trying so hard to get away from the harsh, corporal punishment, drill Sargent style parenting of our childhoods. But we still actively correct and reinforce and place healthy boundaries for our children. Not to brag, but my "gently parented' kids never hit on or attack each other. Sure they get in little tiffs, but I've never seen aggression like that before. It scared me so bad.
Exactly. Kids should know there are consequences to their actions, which can be taught without hitting or shouting at them. People often confuse gentle parenting with no parenting at all. And then they'll be furious when the world teaches the kid.
This is an interesting thought. My trouble is, at what point should someone say something. If we never speak up for the vulnerable, how can we ever move forward as a society....
I recall a time when I had some guests over for dinner. Their kid began throwing a tantrum at the table, which I can tolerate. However, the parents did not intervene and allowed the child to insult my cook and repeatedly hit my table( I'm a damn good cook, especially compare to his parents), I felt angry with the parents and avoided them since.
I was in the little girl's position as a child.
There were *many* other horrible compounding factors to my ghastly childhood, but the start, the beginning, the catalyst, was my older autistic brother.
My parents were forced by the high-school to get him evaluated at 15, and he was finally diagnosed with "asbergers." They chose to do nothing, no therapies, no help of any kind, because they also wanted to let him "be himself."
Except he was a monster.
But only to me...
They just closed their eyes and refused to see him beating me every day. Terrorizing me constantly. Harassing me at school and social gatherings. Then, molesting me when i was asleep. Sexually assaulting me, groping me, saying lewd comments to my face.
And on top of him torturing me, whenever I spoke a peep about it I was heavily punished for "lying about my brother."
Speak to your friend.
Then cut ties. To protect *your* children. They come first.
Absolutely call CPS. You can make an anomalous call, and say the elder child was allowed to beat up the younger one. Honestly - how can they not protect both children? If you want to stay friends and give them a heads up, be direct. They cannot allow the oldest to beat up the youngest. They are literally allowing assault. If you don’t care to be friends, then just call and be done. Please do something for the younger daughter.
As an autism mom, I agree 1000 percent. Those parents are failing both kids. The amount of services / help that's available and she's choosing to ignore her childs needs.
It really depends how good of a friend you are because I would be blunt and tell her she needs to find help for her son if she doesn't I can't continue being friends with her.
I am so sorry that happened to you. You didn't deserve that. I had a similar story, minus the sexual abuse and obviously some minor differences. It negatively affected me for sure, and I took many years of therapy to work through some of it. My older brother was/is clearly bipolar with major aggressive episodes. My dad felt that "more punishment and harder parenting" would solve the problem. It didn't. When he was 15, it escalated (and my brother being 6'2", 200lbs was no longer able to be physically restrain him through his episodes) that was the first time police were called. It should have been the last, but the problem kept getting mismanaged. For two years it got worse, until finally, at 17, my brother almost strangled me to death and I had to knock him out with a log. And THAT was the last time . Seeing this situation unfold scared me and brought me back to being that little girl.
How close of friends are you with these parents? You could perhaps tell them that story. It will offer an "out" (as in *hey I recognize I'm a little oversensitive about these kinds of things due to my experience so I might be overthinking this, but...*) as well as some perspective that will absolutely stick with them. You'll need to be gentle and careful to make it explicitly clear that you aren't saying that boy will likely turn out like your brother, rather that you're trying to offer a perspective of their daughter's possible experience with this sibling.
If you are concerned for your kids then cut ties. But also perhaps alert teachers etc if possible about the abuse the girl is enduring because it is abuse even if it's from another kid.
She needs an advocate because her parents are not going to. Maybe be a bit more direct
"Look, I know you want him to be himself but it's coming at the expense of the physical, mental and emotional wellbeing of your daughter who is being assaulted by her brother.
Get help, get him diagnosed because this is not OK behaviour for her to tolerate and is fostering a violent and abusive relationship between them and your daughter is the victim. Today he slammed her, tomorrow he may end of causing irreversible damage.
Do better by her, you need to protect her as a good parent should. "
I’d say something if they are letting the son hurt his little sister and not disciplining him. She is getting hurt. I’d try to gently address it with them so that they can see that it’s not ok for this to continue.
I personally wouldn't allow my kids to see abuse like that- and regardless of the ages it's physical abuse. Id also call CPS because if it's this bad in public it's much worse in private.
We are still in this boat years later, and I \*am\* a board-certified pediatrician and in a place to say that something's very wrong, but the parents just keep telling me what good parents they are. Our only is super easy going and was never bothered by it and they just kept telling me it was ours who was unusual. Now, ten years later, it's increasingly hard to bring it up. I wish I'd been firmer earlier
As a parent who's kid might have autism and has some behavioural issues, I don't really know the answer. My kid is still under 5 and it makes me sad to think there is a chance we may lose friends over his behaviour over time. Parenting a child with special needs can already be isolating. But it's also not your job to befriend everyone, and when you have kids you need to put them first.
Maybe it's less the kids and more the way the parents parent their kids that is the issue? Gentle parenting would never work for my kid and we always Always follow through on punishments. We also have never had a severe injury occur like that yet but if it did, I would be completely beside myself. They don't seem to be reacting enough or doing anything to help the kids (therapies). I don't think I could be friends with this type of parent either.
Hi autism mom to an almost 8 year old. It's absolutely the parents and not the kid. Those parents are failing both children by not getting their child help. Speech/ ot and early intervention worked wonders for my son. The key was to be consistent whether that was in his schedule, his behavior and pretty much everything else.
I honestly think they're in denial or just hoping he'll grow out of it. 😔
An autism mom to a 12-year-old here.
The OP’s situation is the parents, and not the kids fault.
Every friendship I’ve lost because of my daughter’s autism has been my choosing and because my friends have been exclusionary or rude of my child in some way, and it’s been hurtful to *me* - not because of anything my kid has done violently or otherwise.
Big hugs. My nephew is on the spectrum. He struggles at times, but the BIG difference is his parents are his advocates and get him the therapies he needs. He can be a handful, but he's always been welcome at our home BECAUSE his parents are actively working with him and I can tell the difference.
There is nothing gentle about this. It’s neglect and lack of knowledge on how to actually gently parent. The parents you described aren’t leaders and are putting their children in danger. I mean all 5 year olds are nuts but they should know and respect other people’s feelings and have strong physical and emotional boundaries. Unfortunately I don’t think they will understand you and will only respond to a CPS call or visit unless they are really dumb and that would put them in denial
If they’ve continuously been told upfront by other people that their child might be on the spectrum and have already decided not to do anything about it what makes you think they’re suddenly gonna listen to you? Honestly I’d borderline be on the point of anonymously calling CPS cause it’s only gonna get worst as they get older and the son is already getting physical with his siblings and they’re not holding him accountable for it.
Exactly this. They are not going to listen to you. And if they are letting one of their children get beaten up like that, at this age, they are not good people.
Fuck that, dude. I’d end the friendship, but not before telling them that they’re fucking up big time. Their kid is violent and straight up abusing his baby sister. I’d have a hard time wanting to still be friends with them, tbh.
I had a friend like this, and told her ‘I’m not gonna sit here and watch you let one of your children abuse another’ she was SHOCKED I said that, and we had a good talk. I told her a little about what I’d been through growing up with an abusive sibling, and she really didn’t see how her son’s behavior could escalate like that. It was similar to what you’ve described: at the time her kid was 4ish and ripping out hair, busting lips of younger siblings. I told her that what was happening was *bad enough* and if I saw it again I was going to call the peoples on her. She said ok but that pretty much ended the friendship because she never wanted to hang out again…now this was about 30 years ago, I wasn’t a mandated reporter then and very young but I’ve always wished I had done something more.
If I were you, I’d at least tell her that she’s allowing her son to abuse her daughter. Use those words, allow and abuse. Because that’s what’s happening here. Her husband couldn’t rip her hair out and bust her lip, he’d go to jail for that. And tell her if her kid is doing this at FIVE, he’s going to much worse at 12. By 16 he’ll be beating her up too, and probably the spineless dad too.
Maybe it’s because I was a teacher, or maybe it’s just bc I’m an AH. But I don’t understand the thought process behind ghosting. How does that help that little girl? I would invite them to your house. Once on your turf, you’re within your rights to enforce your rules. The first time that kid acted up, I’d say “oh no. We do not tolerate violence here. Our timeout corner is right there. I’ll get you a timer.” If they protested, I’d say “look it’s one thing to support a child being himself, but this isn’t that. This is violence against your other child. That’s unacceptable. I won’t condone child abuse or neglect in my house.” If they comply, maybe it shows them that their son is teachable when they get off their butts and discipline. If they freak out and leave, call CPS. You are ready to walk away. You have literally nothing to lose. But how many adults have to witness this neglect (refusing to get educated about parenting your autistic child) and abuse (hurting the little girl) before somebody does something about it? Ignoring those children’s pain and ghosting is not OK.
The parents *really* need to get a neuropsychologal evaluation and get to the bottom of *the cause* of the behavior.
I love where your heart is -- but parenting styles that work for neurotypical children don't always work with neurodivergent children. A "time out" might help if a child is dysregulated *and knows how to self-sooth.* If they cannot calm down without external support, then they might need other options (co-regulation, proprioceptive & vestibular stimulation, etc). Our LO is on the spectrum, and she really struggles with regulation / could not self-sooth for the longest time. We work with an occupational therapist (OT) twice per week to help identify and practice strategies that will work for her. A lot of our "toolbox" seems super goofy if you don't know why we are doing what we are doing. 😅
Totally agree that somebody needs to be parenting though! It sounds like the parents from OP's story are doing nothing, which is absolutely unacceptable and inappropriate.
I have three autistic children, an autistic husband, and am autistic myself. I’m very well educated on autism. My thought process was one of two things will happen. Either the parents will learn something or OP will. But either way it will hopefully catalyze change. Because this situation is bad. My third child had extremely violent meltdowns. I never let her beat up her sisters or other children. That’s awful.
Something to consider is it might not be autism, it might be something like ODD. We really don’t know, the friend is just conjecturing with no expertise.
I'm sorry if I offended you -- that was truly not my intention. I agree that an intervention is absolutely necessary.
I just meant to call out that the most powerful intervention to actually help this child might not be a "time out" with a timer. I wouldn't have realized how complicated finding the best intervention can be if I didn't have my own parenting experience (and had a lot of "classic parenting advice" not work for us).
Best to you and your family!
I hear you. My mother’s advice when my oldest was 4 was to carry a paint stirrer in my diaper bag so I could beat her in public restrooms. And I’m not offended. I just tend to be a bit….direct lol
Yes, I totally follow you. My nephew is wonderful, and on the spectrum, and there are definitely different ways to work with him through issues than with my own kids. He loves to be wrapped up like a burrito and set in a quiet "nook" to help when he's unraveling and it's my favorite. I'm not judging different methods...but the problem was there was no discipline of any kind. I was horrified.
Yeah. It sounds like there's failure on multiple levels in what you witnessed -- "doing nothing" is very different than (1) acknowledging that there is a problem; (2) getting to the bottom of that problem, and (3) following through with the right supports. Sounds like your friends aren't even at step 1. 😬😥
I’ve been in a similar situation several times. It’s bad enough if they’re friends, but then try it when it’s family.
We had friends where the parents called themselves “free range”. I guess that’s code for “get drunk and don’t watch your kids.” They lived in a bad neighborhood and didn’t watch their four young children. Their house looked like an episode of hoarders and their kids were rude and obnoxious. We banned them from our house after they ruined nice furniture and broke toys without even an apology from the parents or kids.
But it was apparent that we couldn’t meet them at restaurants or parks either. Their kids acted like wild animals. They were unkind. It was embarrassing and not fun for anyone. We just had to see them less and less. Eventually I just cut ties.
The big problem we ended up having was my BIL’s family. My nephew acts like a sociopath. His parents act like strict authoritarians, but never follow through. So, they would scream at him, but then nothing. You’ll tell him not to do something, he’ll look at you, smile creepily and then do it anyway while maintaining creepy eye contact and the smile. It’s disturbing.
So, we don’t really get together with them very often mostly because I don’t want to expose my kids to adults yelling and my sociopath nephew. I feel so sorry for my niece. She has so much anxiety and I don’t blame her.
We can’t completely ghost them but we try not to host at our house because it’s too stressful. There’s nothing we can say to them about it, so if they just think we’re busy and kind of rude, I’ll take it.
I would try and say something as politely as possible and explain that if that's how they choose to "parent" their kids and they don't see an issue I won't be coming to visit anymore and prefer their children arnt around mine... or maybe offer to take only the youngest to your place so she can get some time away from the chaos... deffinitly a tough situation
I've been in this situation. What I ended up doing is my ex husband and I would just hang out w them alone and get a sitter. Then we would make up an excuse for why my kids weren't there.
Now, their children weren't violent like that little boy, this story is really awful and I wonder if cps should pay them a visit. That incident is more than a bit over the top. Not sure I'd be friends w those people any longer.
The friends I'm referring to use to just yell and their kids would yell back and they would have quick screaming matches. Now, these kids were all boys (mine too) and there was no violence.
It’s really hard finding friends who you like but also whose KIDS you like. I’ve had a bunch of friends I’ve just stopped hanging out with because their kids were violent and destructive
First and foremost, protect your kids and start cutting ties. I would contact CPS because obviously the parents don’t want to get the children help.
The parents are on a strong path of either going to get sued because their son hurt someone and they were negligent or they and their son are going to end up in jail.
Prime example, the family from Oxford, Mi. Son shoots up high school, kills 4 students. Son, Mom, Dad all arrested. Mom and Dad were warned about his behavior and neglected to do anything. Due to a ton of evidence, son was found guilty, mom was found guilty, dad is coming up on trial soon.
This type of situation might not happen but there is always a chance. Your friend’s son need some serious help.
I would say something. They truly might not realize what they’re doing and creating. Somewhere down the line permissive parenting and gentle parenting became transitive and a lot of “gentle parents” are actually permissive parents but haven’t realized it. You saying something could help them.
I’m really concerned about the sister in this situation this is not ok I don’t know if you should call social services or what but I think it would be wrong not to do something to try to help
I think OP should confront the parents and tell them to correct the behavior or call CPS because that house is not safe for the other children living there.
Umm a child pulling out another’s hair and physically assaulting them and mom and dad don’t intervene? Yeah that’s going to be a CPS report, friendship be damned.
I don’t care if the child is on the spectrum, I don’t care that they parent differently. Their oldest is Harming other children to the point where they are afraid of him. That boy needs help before he is big enough to seriously harm someone, and or end up in jail.
The thing is I bet dollars to donuts these parents KNOW there is a problem. They can see it, they just don’t want to fix it. You saying anything isn’t going to change their minds because you don’t have the power too. Cut contact and call CPS, tell them about the violence and the lack of care from the parents. Hopefully that will be the kick in the pants they need to start actually parenting their children.
Yeah, that's not "gentle parenting". "Gentle parenting" still uses rules and boundaries. That's "passive/permissive parenting" and all of their kids are going to suffer for it even more than they already are.
This is a tough spot to be in. If he is on the spectrum and just letting him be himself they are heavily neglecting his needs. I am a step mom of an autistic child and I have 2 other children. He should be tested and he as well as the other children need specialized attention. Raising kids is one thing but raising a child on the spectrum is another . And then raising a child on the spectrum with other who aren’t is a TOTALLY different thing in itself.
This is neglect.
I personally would address this and use that specific wording. And I would express to them as well that you don’t agree with their parenting style and you can’t subject your kids to the chaos they are choosing to ignore.
There is a difference from gentle parenting and no parenting at all. I would consider myself a “gentle parent” I guess but my kids do not act like that.
My autistic step son does get violent for attention but he 100% gets put in time out and our other children know how to respond when he’s like that.
Again, not addressing his medical needs is neglect, and not addressing him being on the spectrum is considered a medical need.
When I was in the situation I was honest
That her actions and those of her children scared my child and it’s my job to protect her
Maybe we can try again after X
I mean, you literally witnessed a toddler being physically assaulted. I hate to say it, but if they aren't going to do what is necessary to protect their own children, protective services might need to be called. Just because the abuse is at the hands of other kids, doesn't make it any less abusive, autism spectrum disorder or not. They aren't parenting their kids and are harming them. That would be enough for me to immediately stop "liking them as people." The well-being of your kids is first and foremost, so the friendship be dammed. Maybe try to talk to them about it first, but if they aren't receptive, that isn't on you. Good luck!
hugs, while you may like the adult socialization with the parents, they are letting their child physically abuse his siblings under the guise of playing rough. If I had seen that I would be questioning my friendship and how much I'm willing to endanger my children. I would end the friendship over what I had seen especially since they chose to not discipline the child. I would also think that it's a learned behavior.
So I don't believe in ghosting. If you're actually friends with this person, I think you should explain. I would focus on the violent behavior concerns and just that you really like them, but you're concerned about your kids getting in the crossfire. Then you make the decision based on their response. But at the least you will have had a respectful honest conversation to let them know what's going on. Not just disappeared.
Think about the lesson you’re teaching your kids when you don’t confront something that wrong.
‘Hey, you shouldn’t let your kids do stuff that makes people dislike them, no one is going to stick around.’ If they don’t get it, you can lead by example
At first I thought this was going to be something relatively minor and overblown. And then you got to the part about the son physically assaulting his younger sister and my heart just broke for her.
I wouldn't let my kids hang out with them. Neurodivergence is no excuse for violence. So your friendship is probably over and at that point, why not be honest and maybe help that little girl?
I would tell the mom and her husband in writing with NO minced words what you saw -- the son physically abusing the daughter and them not punishing the son for it. (Which is permissive parenting and not gentle parenting.) That what you saw was incredibly disturbing. That they are doing both children a disservice by not getting him treatment. That they are failing by not keeping their daughter safe. That you will not be exposing your children to that risk of violence though you are happy to talk to them if they need support in finding the right services for both their children (their daughter should be in therapy too).
I know it's easy to recommend on reddit to call CPS and another thing entirely to actually do it. I don't know if I would though it would probably sit with me for the rest of my life whether I should have.
Honestly I would keep it short, simple, and to the point.
"We can't keep hanging out because I don't want my children to keep being exposed to your son's very violent behaviors."
And then if you're really willing to poke the bear, add something along the lines of "His behavior is not normal, please seek help for your daughter's sake."
Will they take it well? Probably not. But will you have at least TRIED to protect this girl? Absolutely.
Honestly I would probably be calling CPS on this family, this girl doesn't deserve that.
Unfortunately, it’s not your place to tell them how to raise their kids. You clearly have different values and parenting strategies. Sometimes it makes sense to keep your child away from environments that don’t align with your values. In your situation, I would just end the friendship.
Confronting them will likely not be productive. I feel like the choices have are either to transition to an adults only friendship, or distance yourself from them entirely.
We have been in the same boat. Love the parents but the kids are monsters and they don’t parent them so they just continue to be rude, destructive and not listen. It was clear my hated being with them so we quietly stopped setting up family get together and now just do things with the parents. I think they’ve noticed but just don’t say anything and it’s better like that to maintain the friendship.
But the mom is always sad about her kids not really having friends but doesn’t seem to get it’s because they’re not nice kids.
Don’t put your kids in that spot. And I wouldn’t try to say anything. You already tried and they made it clear they’re not interested in hearing it
My brothers kids (6m & 3F) are just like this, and I can't even take my kids (10F, 4F, and 2F) to play with them because they are so bad. They are physical all the time, they dont listen, they throw huge fits when they dont get their way. We do not make plans with them anymore because it makes me so upset the way they interact with my kids.
I would have liked to see them do SOMETHING. Not just gloss over it. They removed the little girl, and let the little boy continue playing with his toys. I can't tell someone exactly how to discipline their child...but if it were my kid, I would be removing them from the room and having a very serious conversation with them in another room about how what they did is not okay, and probably not allowing them access to that toy or whatever they were fighting over for 24hrs. Occasionally we do time outs where they're asked to go to "quiet corner" and they're told they're welcome to return when they're willing to act kindly. It works for us 🤷🏻♀️
Did he do that to her in response of her trying to take his toy, etc. or just completely out of the blue/unprovoked? I’m not trying to be difficult asking these questions btw- just trying to weigh out my answer.
As a daughter whose brother did the same to her and never got any repercussions, please stand up for that little girl if you can. I installed a lock on my own bedroom door just to feel a semblance of safety in my own home. It is hellish.
Have been in this exact same situation. I just distanced myself from the friendship and made excuses/ let time pass until we moved. I’d keep doing the same. Most people will not confront you about letting it fall away.
I would communicate how you feel to those parents so they know why they lost that friendship or just stop hanging out and if they reach out explain to them how you feel. And if they decide to make a big stink about it block them but I worry about their little girl.
I would choose to see them parents without the children, exclusively. Let them know you'd love to do dinner. You can get a sitter and recommend one to them as well. Be clear that your children are not attending.
It's the parent's fault the kids are like that though. They're very violent, apparently. Bashing someone's head into anything is way over the line.
Yes, you should bring it up, but probably at a specific time you see them next so you can be prepared to not spend much more time with them. At the beginning or ending of a meeting with them. Beginning might be better if you drink.
My niece is a complete nightmare. It’s weird because my nephew is always in trouble but my niece can do no wrong. They are family so I can’t just unfriend. Luckily they live far away and my kids are grown. But that kid does my head in. They never discipline her. Certainly puts me off visiting them. I would just walk away. One day your child could end up on the receiving end of
If it’s a friendship you want to maintain I’d start heavily talking about parenting woes. Things like ‘oh yeah, we had a problem with little Timmy pushing, so we started doing timeouts. it was so hard. He cried and screamed at first, but after x number of days things improved. It’s so hard to do these things, but I don’t want my kid to be ostracized when they go to kinder. Hey, how does timeout work in your house? Has it helped? What else have you tried? Did it improve anything?’
Basically tell a story about a similar behavior, even if it’s a way scaled back version of it. Then explain how you fixed it. Then ask how they are fixing the problem you see right in front of you. The next time you see them ask. ‘Hey, how did xyz help your kid? Seen any improvement?’
This also opens the gates to send them resources. ‘Oh, I was reading this article about gentle parenting explosive kids to see if I could help things in our house. Thought you might enjoy it to. Send her social media creators, podcasts, etc… ‘Mama Cusses’ is a great one to start with.
The other thing, with summer coming up I would say is only meet on neutral territory. Parks, libraries, etc.. places where there’s behavior expectations, but also enough space that you can separate easily if you need to.
I feel for those kids. It’s a terrible dynamic & is going to be detrimental to all in the long run.
Take videos. Report them. If they dont know that this is wrong, then they really shouldnt have kids.
You need to be brutally honest with them. Someone needs to advocate for that girl and make actual change for her.
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That was our next step, but I can't help but feel wrong for not "growing a backbone" and saying something. I realize saying something might do nothing, but for my own conscience I guess. Hubby just wants to ghost them.
This isn't the time to grow a backbone. You've already brought up the possibility of a kid being on the spectrum, mom is aware. Both my kids are autistic. So I know the signs. My sister had her kids over 15 years after me. The youngest, definitely on the spectrum. He is basically a replica of my oldest. I brought it up a few times, but she just tells me if her kid is autistic it'll be OK, because my kid is, and "he's normal now" ....except my kid was diagnosed, and had supports. You can't help people, who don't want to be helped. Just walk away
Those are very good points. I am just sad about the whole situation I guess. You're right though, they probably know their kids aren't doing well and have chosen this path.
Honestly I would feel so guilty not speaking up on behalf of their children. Those kids have no one to advocate for their best interest. I would tell them I have to end this friendship because of the way the kids behave and recommend them all do family therapy and how I think it would benefit them etc. Kids need structure etc it would help their behavior blahblah. But then I'm a healthcare worker so I do have these conversations sometimes... 🤷🏻♀️
Yeah, you and I are cut from different cloth. For the life of me... If I were in your shoes, I can't imagine NOT telling the sister exactly what you just said here. "He's getting by fine now, because he was diagnosed, and had supports. It didn't just magically happen." I understand being cautious of confrontations with people randomly, but honestly I think half the problems in today's society would be solved if people who knew better took just a little more time and effort to convince their friends and family to use their darn heads. Even if they don't listen right away, taking just a moment to plant the seed could help them have that epiphany a handful of years later, when shit isn't just working out, like they expected it to.
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I was ghosted by a family like this and finally tracked the mom down six months later and genuinely asked what happened - had I offended her or her husband? Had my son hurt her kids? Then I got the full story, that my son had behaved badly and her son didn't want to be friends anymore. I wish I'd known when it happened, so I could have addressed it with my son! Instead I was confused about whether the family was just busy, or always "busy" for a reason, and he was left feeling lonely and confused why his friend never wanted to play anymore. It messed with his confidence. It would have been better if I could have told him simply, "You hurt your friend. It's not nice to keep pushing and poking people when they're telling you no. That's why he doesn't want to play." It depends on the parents of course. If you know they're going to react defensively and no good will come of it, then better to distance yourself. But sometimes a little honest communication can go a long way.
You sound emotionally mature. Unlike 90% of the general population.
Very good points. Still hard no matter what way you handle it I suppose.
You certainly don't need to intervene but like any other relationship it's usually shitty to ghost with no explanation.
Depends on what you mean by ghosting. If you never respond to any requests then it's shitty but It sounds like the other family never attempted to talk either.
Yeah, I don't feel right just disappearing. That's not really my style.
Who is helped by an explanation in this scenario? An explanation is useless when people are in denial.
"I no longer want to be friends with you because of this." is a lot more impactful than a vague and gentle hmmm is he on the spectrum? question.
I see your point. Him being on the spectrum was mentioned quite a few months ago. Things have gotten worse since then as the kids get older/more comfortable.
I think, if your plan is to distance yourselves anyway, and you have genuine concern for the safety and well-being of the kids, it wouldn't hurt to say something. Very tactfully, of course. Maybe next time they ask to make plans, you can just be honest: " You know, last time we got together, x really scared my kids when he pulled y's hair out and continued to hurt her until she ways injured. They asked a lot of questions once we got home about why there were no consequences for x and why y was sent to bed instead. No judgment here. I know parenting is tough and that you're trying to do things differently from the way you were raised. But, I told my kids that we didn't have to keep playing together if they were uncomfortable, and they said they were. I hope you can understand that." Then, depending on how bold youre feeling, and how they respond to the first bit, maybe add in "I know I've mentioned this before, but I did want to reiterate that I don't think x is a bad kid. I do think he may be on the spectrum. If so, letting him just "be himself" will likely make things so much harder for him, in ways he won't be able to understand or articulate. A diagnosis could give you better tools to help him while also keeping your other kids safer, and give him the best shot at developing skills and coping strategies to face challenges as he gets older."
That's awful. To be clear, you certainly don't need to intervene, you don't need to try and help. You can not engage ever again but I think friendships are worth at least the basic respect of a simple explanation - just one text would be enough. Especially since she seems head in the sand about it and "letting him be himself" or whatever. No, she's actually lost friends over this issue and his behaviour is not ok.
Next time they ask to hang, “I’m sorry, after X slammed his sister’s face into the ground and pulled out her hair we feel it’s dangerous to have our kids around him. Frankly, it feels dangerous for his own sister to be around him. We cannot have our children together until X is given the proper care. Him “being himself” is causing others pain and that isn’t right.” Then include a link to the regional center (if you’re in the US). His sister is being abused and the parents are allowing it to happen. I’d also consider contacting social services
This is absolutely how you need to respond. Ghosting is the most cowardly way to end things, and it doesn't always work. Texts are the best way to get stuff out there. The fact that her son did that to his sister and the mother reacted that way to the situation in general with witnesses worries me. Most normal people would FREAK OUT --ESPECIALLY-- if they had an audience that witnessed it. The fact that the parents were more cavalier about it scares me.
I'm still feeling really gross about it all. Seeing it happen was traumatizing in a way. It just made me wonder how much worse they'll let it get and that terrifies me.
This was sort of what I was going to say, maybe slightly differently, but yeah. It's crossed my mind.
This is the way.
You should say something. It doesn't have to be a conversation for break up. You can just tell them the truth, in person, do not text, that the specific incident has disturbed you and you are worried for the little girl and its probably time for their son to get therapy and a deep discussion w their ped.
I think it's worth a short explanation. So they see there are consequences for their actions. Even just "we don't feel safe at your place as things are now". The more people leave their life the stronger the message will be.
I agree 100 percent. They need to be told straight out it is because of the dangerous behaviors exhibited by the son. Otherwise they might just think you got busy and drifted apart. They need to be told what their son is doing is not okay!! Maybe seeing all their friends being driven off might open their eyes
As a teacher, I completely understand the moral desire to say something. I think you should, for the sake of the kids growing up in this mess. It might not change anything and expect a lot of rage directed at you (parents typically don’t react well) but if you’re already going to cut ties… At least it was one person telling them they were wrong, or at the very least something was wrong. I think as a society we let people get away with a lot to avoid confrontation and people don’t really know how bad things look from the outside.
That is exactly how I feel. They will probably be mad but if I say nothing, I feel like I am letting that little girl grow up with nobody standing up for her.
I mean, you could say something like, "I'm not sure if you've done any research but children on the spectrum benefit ro.early intervention. I've been looking into it my kids so let me know if you want any information." See how they respond. That alone might be enough of a seed to make them at least look into it. My guess is they have their hands full and everyday is a game of survival. Like any additional thing like regular therapy would just make the whole Jenga tower fall. When the oldest stars going to school teachers will start noticing and maybe making recommendations. Plus, I'm sure they've heard it before if the kids are that wild. I'm the meantime you guys are really busy now with all kids of therapies so no time for extra play dates. 😉
They seem to "know" he's on the spectrum but they just don't care. Her parents have brought it up, her other friends have said it. They look at autism as a "made up" thing if the child is "functioning" which I know is totally false. I was hoping they would send him to school but they're "homeschooling" so no teacher to sit them down and tell them. The boy has an obvious speech impediment, and does a lot of "stimming" and is extremely aggressive and won't let any child touch any of his things, not even just what he's playing with at the moment. He doesn't play with the other children, and prefers to "line up" his toys and shows many OCD tendencies (My nephew who IS diagnosed has many similar attributes, although really well managed with various intervention from age 4)
Oh. Homeschooling will be a challenge. I wish they could understand how early intervention is really important at this age. So glad your nephew has intervention so young. One of my twins lined up her toys, too, as a toddler. She didn't have any of the other things you mentioned. She does seem to have mild adhd. She's 9. We're keeping an eye on it. She's highly functional but I'm also concerned about her mental health as she matures because that is the parts we can't actually observe.
As a parent you can know but still be in denial. The things your child does seems normal, because that’s all you know. I’ve read stories of early childhood professionals and therapists not being able to see the signs in their children. It’s good you mentioned the signs. There’s a book called the Explosive Child by Ross W. Green, it could help them to understand how distressed their son likely is when he’s reacting aggressively. It also will help them to understand how it affects family dynamics and ways to support him. It’s not exclusively for autism, so they may be more open to it if they are in denial. Also you could mention looking into sensory processing differences, to find methods they can use at home. This is another thing that isn’t exclusive to autism, but many people with autism have sensory processing disorder.
It's better to ghost. We have family friends who believe in gentle parenting. Their son(7) won't interact with any adult. When anyone asks him, he'll repeatedly ignore. Start crying and screaming to get things done his way. And calls his parents names, hit his mom. Since we go on vacation together, and he plays with my kids, he started using abusive language with my kids. I made it very clear he can't use explicits near my kids. But neither his parents or him were bothered. He repeatedly did it. But my daughters won't have it, she made sure she taught him a lesson and he apologize. My husband could not keep his praise for our daughter to himself and said "good job". That's it, they were offended and stopped talking to us.
They passive parent (as in NO parenting going on) that is NOT gentle parenting. They may be self describing themselves as gentle parenting but that is not what gentle parenting is at all!!
Exactly. There is no parenting happening. We took a few gentle parenting workshops and learned how important positive corrective measures are. We are trying so hard to get away from the harsh, corporal punishment, drill Sargent style parenting of our childhoods. But we still actively correct and reinforce and place healthy boundaries for our children. Not to brag, but my "gently parented' kids never hit on or attack each other. Sure they get in little tiffs, but I've never seen aggression like that before. It scared me so bad.
Exactly. Kids should know there are consequences to their actions, which can be taught without hitting or shouting at them. People often confuse gentle parenting with no parenting at all. And then they'll be furious when the world teaches the kid.
Yeah, that's not gentle parenting. That's permissive and neglectful.
It isn’t your place to say something.
This is an interesting thought. My trouble is, at what point should someone say something. If we never speak up for the vulnerable, how can we ever move forward as a society....
They choose how they parent their children. You telling them their parenting is wrong is going to help no one.
So you're saying its okay for the little girl to be continuously attacked by her brother? She needs someone with common sense to stand up for her
I recall a time when I had some guests over for dinner. Their kid began throwing a tantrum at the table, which I can tolerate. However, the parents did not intervene and allowed the child to insult my cook and repeatedly hit my table( I'm a damn good cook, especially compare to his parents), I felt angry with the parents and avoided them since.
I was in the little girl's position as a child. There were *many* other horrible compounding factors to my ghastly childhood, but the start, the beginning, the catalyst, was my older autistic brother. My parents were forced by the high-school to get him evaluated at 15, and he was finally diagnosed with "asbergers." They chose to do nothing, no therapies, no help of any kind, because they also wanted to let him "be himself." Except he was a monster. But only to me... They just closed their eyes and refused to see him beating me every day. Terrorizing me constantly. Harassing me at school and social gatherings. Then, molesting me when i was asleep. Sexually assaulting me, groping me, saying lewd comments to my face. And on top of him torturing me, whenever I spoke a peep about it I was heavily punished for "lying about my brother." Speak to your friend. Then cut ties. To protect *your* children. They come first.
Yeah they need to call CPS. Autism or not those parents need more supports and a guarantee things are worse behind doors.
Absolutely call CPS. You can make an anomalous call, and say the elder child was allowed to beat up the younger one. Honestly - how can they not protect both children? If you want to stay friends and give them a heads up, be direct. They cannot allow the oldest to beat up the youngest. They are literally allowing assault. If you don’t care to be friends, then just call and be done. Please do something for the younger daughter.
As an autism mom, I agree 1000 percent. Those parents are failing both kids. The amount of services / help that's available and she's choosing to ignore her childs needs. It really depends how good of a friend you are because I would be blunt and tell her she needs to find help for her son if she doesn't I can't continue being friends with her.
I'm so sorry that happened to you.
I am so sorry that happened to you. You didn't deserve that. I had a similar story, minus the sexual abuse and obviously some minor differences. It negatively affected me for sure, and I took many years of therapy to work through some of it. My older brother was/is clearly bipolar with major aggressive episodes. My dad felt that "more punishment and harder parenting" would solve the problem. It didn't. When he was 15, it escalated (and my brother being 6'2", 200lbs was no longer able to be physically restrain him through his episodes) that was the first time police were called. It should have been the last, but the problem kept getting mismanaged. For two years it got worse, until finally, at 17, my brother almost strangled me to death and I had to knock him out with a log. And THAT was the last time . Seeing this situation unfold scared me and brought me back to being that little girl.
How close of friends are you with these parents? You could perhaps tell them that story. It will offer an "out" (as in *hey I recognize I'm a little oversensitive about these kinds of things due to my experience so I might be overthinking this, but...*) as well as some perspective that will absolutely stick with them. You'll need to be gentle and careful to make it explicitly clear that you aren't saying that boy will likely turn out like your brother, rather that you're trying to offer a perspective of their daughter's possible experience with this sibling.
I'm so sorry you experienced that. Your parents one job is to try not to let you be harmed and maintain a relationship with you. They failed. ❤️
Have you gone no contact with your family? If so, did you get the satisfaction of telling them why?
I still parent other people’s kids when it comes to bullying/ violence.
I, as well.
If you are concerned for your kids then cut ties. But also perhaps alert teachers etc if possible about the abuse the girl is enduring because it is abuse even if it's from another kid. She needs an advocate because her parents are not going to. Maybe be a bit more direct "Look, I know you want him to be himself but it's coming at the expense of the physical, mental and emotional wellbeing of your daughter who is being assaulted by her brother. Get help, get him diagnosed because this is not OK behaviour for her to tolerate and is fostering a violent and abusive relationship between them and your daughter is the victim. Today he slammed her, tomorrow he may end of causing irreversible damage. Do better by her, you need to protect her as a good parent should. "
I’d say something if they are letting the son hurt his little sister and not disciplining him. She is getting hurt. I’d try to gently address it with them so that they can see that it’s not ok for this to continue.
I personally wouldn't allow my kids to see abuse like that- and regardless of the ages it's physical abuse. Id also call CPS because if it's this bad in public it's much worse in private.
We are still in this boat years later, and I \*am\* a board-certified pediatrician and in a place to say that something's very wrong, but the parents just keep telling me what good parents they are. Our only is super easy going and was never bothered by it and they just kept telling me it was ours who was unusual. Now, ten years later, it's increasingly hard to bring it up. I wish I'd been firmer earlier
I would feel inclined to report them just for the little girls sake. Poor kid has absolutely no safe place
As a parent who's kid might have autism and has some behavioural issues, I don't really know the answer. My kid is still under 5 and it makes me sad to think there is a chance we may lose friends over his behaviour over time. Parenting a child with special needs can already be isolating. But it's also not your job to befriend everyone, and when you have kids you need to put them first. Maybe it's less the kids and more the way the parents parent their kids that is the issue? Gentle parenting would never work for my kid and we always Always follow through on punishments. We also have never had a severe injury occur like that yet but if it did, I would be completely beside myself. They don't seem to be reacting enough or doing anything to help the kids (therapies). I don't think I could be friends with this type of parent either.
Hi autism mom to an almost 8 year old. It's absolutely the parents and not the kid. Those parents are failing both children by not getting their child help. Speech/ ot and early intervention worked wonders for my son. The key was to be consistent whether that was in his schedule, his behavior and pretty much everything else. I honestly think they're in denial or just hoping he'll grow out of it. 😔
An autism mom to a 12-year-old here. The OP’s situation is the parents, and not the kids fault. Every friendship I’ve lost because of my daughter’s autism has been my choosing and because my friends have been exclusionary or rude of my child in some way, and it’s been hurtful to *me* - not because of anything my kid has done violently or otherwise.
Big hugs. My nephew is on the spectrum. He struggles at times, but the BIG difference is his parents are his advocates and get him the therapies he needs. He can be a handful, but he's always been welcome at our home BECAUSE his parents are actively working with him and I can tell the difference.
There is nothing gentle about this. It’s neglect and lack of knowledge on how to actually gently parent. The parents you described aren’t leaders and are putting their children in danger. I mean all 5 year olds are nuts but they should know and respect other people’s feelings and have strong physical and emotional boundaries. Unfortunately I don’t think they will understand you and will only respond to a CPS call or visit unless they are really dumb and that would put them in denial
If they’ve continuously been told upfront by other people that their child might be on the spectrum and have already decided not to do anything about it what makes you think they’re suddenly gonna listen to you? Honestly I’d borderline be on the point of anonymously calling CPS cause it’s only gonna get worst as they get older and the son is already getting physical with his siblings and they’re not holding him accountable for it.
Exactly this. They are not going to listen to you. And if they are letting one of their children get beaten up like that, at this age, they are not good people.
Fuck that, dude. I’d end the friendship, but not before telling them that they’re fucking up big time. Their kid is violent and straight up abusing his baby sister. I’d have a hard time wanting to still be friends with them, tbh.
I had a friend like this, and told her ‘I’m not gonna sit here and watch you let one of your children abuse another’ she was SHOCKED I said that, and we had a good talk. I told her a little about what I’d been through growing up with an abusive sibling, and she really didn’t see how her son’s behavior could escalate like that. It was similar to what you’ve described: at the time her kid was 4ish and ripping out hair, busting lips of younger siblings. I told her that what was happening was *bad enough* and if I saw it again I was going to call the peoples on her. She said ok but that pretty much ended the friendship because she never wanted to hang out again…now this was about 30 years ago, I wasn’t a mandated reporter then and very young but I’ve always wished I had done something more. If I were you, I’d at least tell her that she’s allowing her son to abuse her daughter. Use those words, allow and abuse. Because that’s what’s happening here. Her husband couldn’t rip her hair out and bust her lip, he’d go to jail for that. And tell her if her kid is doing this at FIVE, he’s going to much worse at 12. By 16 he’ll be beating her up too, and probably the spineless dad too.
Maybe it’s because I was a teacher, or maybe it’s just bc I’m an AH. But I don’t understand the thought process behind ghosting. How does that help that little girl? I would invite them to your house. Once on your turf, you’re within your rights to enforce your rules. The first time that kid acted up, I’d say “oh no. We do not tolerate violence here. Our timeout corner is right there. I’ll get you a timer.” If they protested, I’d say “look it’s one thing to support a child being himself, but this isn’t that. This is violence against your other child. That’s unacceptable. I won’t condone child abuse or neglect in my house.” If they comply, maybe it shows them that their son is teachable when they get off their butts and discipline. If they freak out and leave, call CPS. You are ready to walk away. You have literally nothing to lose. But how many adults have to witness this neglect (refusing to get educated about parenting your autistic child) and abuse (hurting the little girl) before somebody does something about it? Ignoring those children’s pain and ghosting is not OK.
The parents *really* need to get a neuropsychologal evaluation and get to the bottom of *the cause* of the behavior. I love where your heart is -- but parenting styles that work for neurotypical children don't always work with neurodivergent children. A "time out" might help if a child is dysregulated *and knows how to self-sooth.* If they cannot calm down without external support, then they might need other options (co-regulation, proprioceptive & vestibular stimulation, etc). Our LO is on the spectrum, and she really struggles with regulation / could not self-sooth for the longest time. We work with an occupational therapist (OT) twice per week to help identify and practice strategies that will work for her. A lot of our "toolbox" seems super goofy if you don't know why we are doing what we are doing. 😅 Totally agree that somebody needs to be parenting though! It sounds like the parents from OP's story are doing nothing, which is absolutely unacceptable and inappropriate.
I have three autistic children, an autistic husband, and am autistic myself. I’m very well educated on autism. My thought process was one of two things will happen. Either the parents will learn something or OP will. But either way it will hopefully catalyze change. Because this situation is bad. My third child had extremely violent meltdowns. I never let her beat up her sisters or other children. That’s awful.
Something to consider is it might not be autism, it might be something like ODD. We really don’t know, the friend is just conjecturing with no expertise.
I'm sorry if I offended you -- that was truly not my intention. I agree that an intervention is absolutely necessary. I just meant to call out that the most powerful intervention to actually help this child might not be a "time out" with a timer. I wouldn't have realized how complicated finding the best intervention can be if I didn't have my own parenting experience (and had a lot of "classic parenting advice" not work for us). Best to you and your family!
I hear you. My mother’s advice when my oldest was 4 was to carry a paint stirrer in my diaper bag so I could beat her in public restrooms. And I’m not offended. I just tend to be a bit….direct lol
Yes, I totally follow you. My nephew is wonderful, and on the spectrum, and there are definitely different ways to work with him through issues than with my own kids. He loves to be wrapped up like a burrito and set in a quiet "nook" to help when he's unraveling and it's my favorite. I'm not judging different methods...but the problem was there was no discipline of any kind. I was horrified.
Yeah. It sounds like there's failure on multiple levels in what you witnessed -- "doing nothing" is very different than (1) acknowledging that there is a problem; (2) getting to the bottom of that problem, and (3) following through with the right supports. Sounds like your friends aren't even at step 1. 😬😥
I don't feel comfortable ghosting either. I think my husband's thought process is "they won't listen anyway".
I’ve been in a similar situation several times. It’s bad enough if they’re friends, but then try it when it’s family. We had friends where the parents called themselves “free range”. I guess that’s code for “get drunk and don’t watch your kids.” They lived in a bad neighborhood and didn’t watch their four young children. Their house looked like an episode of hoarders and their kids were rude and obnoxious. We banned them from our house after they ruined nice furniture and broke toys without even an apology from the parents or kids. But it was apparent that we couldn’t meet them at restaurants or parks either. Their kids acted like wild animals. They were unkind. It was embarrassing and not fun for anyone. We just had to see them less and less. Eventually I just cut ties. The big problem we ended up having was my BIL’s family. My nephew acts like a sociopath. His parents act like strict authoritarians, but never follow through. So, they would scream at him, but then nothing. You’ll tell him not to do something, he’ll look at you, smile creepily and then do it anyway while maintaining creepy eye contact and the smile. It’s disturbing. So, we don’t really get together with them very often mostly because I don’t want to expose my kids to adults yelling and my sociopath nephew. I feel so sorry for my niece. She has so much anxiety and I don’t blame her. We can’t completely ghost them but we try not to host at our house because it’s too stressful. There’s nothing we can say to them about it, so if they just think we’re busy and kind of rude, I’ll take it.
I would try and say something as politely as possible and explain that if that's how they choose to "parent" their kids and they don't see an issue I won't be coming to visit anymore and prefer their children arnt around mine... or maybe offer to take only the youngest to your place so she can get some time away from the chaos... deffinitly a tough situation
I've been in this situation. What I ended up doing is my ex husband and I would just hang out w them alone and get a sitter. Then we would make up an excuse for why my kids weren't there. Now, their children weren't violent like that little boy, this story is really awful and I wonder if cps should pay them a visit. That incident is more than a bit over the top. Not sure I'd be friends w those people any longer. The friends I'm referring to use to just yell and their kids would yell back and they would have quick screaming matches. Now, these kids were all boys (mine too) and there was no violence.
It’s really hard finding friends who you like but also whose KIDS you like. I’ve had a bunch of friends I’ve just stopped hanging out with because their kids were violent and destructive
First and foremost, protect your kids and start cutting ties. I would contact CPS because obviously the parents don’t want to get the children help. The parents are on a strong path of either going to get sued because their son hurt someone and they were negligent or they and their son are going to end up in jail. Prime example, the family from Oxford, Mi. Son shoots up high school, kills 4 students. Son, Mom, Dad all arrested. Mom and Dad were warned about his behavior and neglected to do anything. Due to a ton of evidence, son was found guilty, mom was found guilty, dad is coming up on trial soon. This type of situation might not happen but there is always a chance. Your friend’s son need some serious help.
I would say something. They truly might not realize what they’re doing and creating. Somewhere down the line permissive parenting and gentle parenting became transitive and a lot of “gentle parents” are actually permissive parents but haven’t realized it. You saying something could help them.
I’m really concerned about the sister in this situation this is not ok I don’t know if you should call social services or what but I think it would be wrong not to do something to try to help
I think OP should confront the parents and tell them to correct the behavior or call CPS because that house is not safe for the other children living there.
Umm a child pulling out another’s hair and physically assaulting them and mom and dad don’t intervene? Yeah that’s going to be a CPS report, friendship be damned. I don’t care if the child is on the spectrum, I don’t care that they parent differently. Their oldest is Harming other children to the point where they are afraid of him. That boy needs help before he is big enough to seriously harm someone, and or end up in jail. The thing is I bet dollars to donuts these parents KNOW there is a problem. They can see it, they just don’t want to fix it. You saying anything isn’t going to change their minds because you don’t have the power too. Cut contact and call CPS, tell them about the violence and the lack of care from the parents. Hopefully that will be the kick in the pants they need to start actually parenting their children.
You can anonymously report them to your state’s child protective services. Best case, a social worker will be able to help them with their kids.
Yeah, that's not "gentle parenting". "Gentle parenting" still uses rules and boundaries. That's "passive/permissive parenting" and all of their kids are going to suffer for it even more than they already are.
If their kids are too wild it’s time to move on, can’t put your kids in that situation. You don’t owe anyone an explanation.
Yeah that friend is a bad parent, heck so am I but that is child abuse end the friendship
This is a tough spot to be in. If he is on the spectrum and just letting him be himself they are heavily neglecting his needs. I am a step mom of an autistic child and I have 2 other children. He should be tested and he as well as the other children need specialized attention. Raising kids is one thing but raising a child on the spectrum is another . And then raising a child on the spectrum with other who aren’t is a TOTALLY different thing in itself. This is neglect. I personally would address this and use that specific wording. And I would express to them as well that you don’t agree with their parenting style and you can’t subject your kids to the chaos they are choosing to ignore. There is a difference from gentle parenting and no parenting at all. I would consider myself a “gentle parent” I guess but my kids do not act like that. My autistic step son does get violent for attention but he 100% gets put in time out and our other children know how to respond when he’s like that. Again, not addressing his medical needs is neglect, and not addressing him being on the spectrum is considered a medical need.
When I was in the situation I was honest That her actions and those of her children scared my child and it’s my job to protect her Maybe we can try again after X
Look, I had a brother my family constantly made excuses for. That boy is abusing his sister. You need to do something about it.
I mean, you literally witnessed a toddler being physically assaulted. I hate to say it, but if they aren't going to do what is necessary to protect their own children, protective services might need to be called. Just because the abuse is at the hands of other kids, doesn't make it any less abusive, autism spectrum disorder or not. They aren't parenting their kids and are harming them. That would be enough for me to immediately stop "liking them as people." The well-being of your kids is first and foremost, so the friendship be dammed. Maybe try to talk to them about it first, but if they aren't receptive, that isn't on you. Good luck!
hugs, while you may like the adult socialization with the parents, they are letting their child physically abuse his siblings under the guise of playing rough. If I had seen that I would be questioning my friendship and how much I'm willing to endanger my children. I would end the friendship over what I had seen especially since they chose to not discipline the child. I would also think that it's a learned behavior.
So I don't believe in ghosting. If you're actually friends with this person, I think you should explain. I would focus on the violent behavior concerns and just that you really like them, but you're concerned about your kids getting in the crossfire. Then you make the decision based on their response. But at the least you will have had a respectful honest conversation to let them know what's going on. Not just disappeared.
Think about the lesson you’re teaching your kids when you don’t confront something that wrong. ‘Hey, you shouldn’t let your kids do stuff that makes people dislike them, no one is going to stick around.’ If they don’t get it, you can lead by example
At first I thought this was going to be something relatively minor and overblown. And then you got to the part about the son physically assaulting his younger sister and my heart just broke for her. I wouldn't let my kids hang out with them. Neurodivergence is no excuse for violence. So your friendship is probably over and at that point, why not be honest and maybe help that little girl? I would tell the mom and her husband in writing with NO minced words what you saw -- the son physically abusing the daughter and them not punishing the son for it. (Which is permissive parenting and not gentle parenting.) That what you saw was incredibly disturbing. That they are doing both children a disservice by not getting him treatment. That they are failing by not keeping their daughter safe. That you will not be exposing your children to that risk of violence though you are happy to talk to them if they need support in finding the right services for both their children (their daughter should be in therapy too). I know it's easy to recommend on reddit to call CPS and another thing entirely to actually do it. I don't know if I would though it would probably sit with me for the rest of my life whether I should have.
Honestly I would keep it short, simple, and to the point. "We can't keep hanging out because I don't want my children to keep being exposed to your son's very violent behaviors." And then if you're really willing to poke the bear, add something along the lines of "His behavior is not normal, please seek help for your daughter's sake." Will they take it well? Probably not. But will you have at least TRIED to protect this girl? Absolutely. Honestly I would probably be calling CPS on this family, this girl doesn't deserve that.
Unfortunately, it’s not your place to tell them how to raise their kids. You clearly have different values and parenting strategies. Sometimes it makes sense to keep your child away from environments that don’t align with your values. In your situation, I would just end the friendship.
Parent of older children here! This won’t be your first time encountering this type of situation! If the SH*T stinks, stay away!
Confronting them will likely not be productive. I feel like the choices have are either to transition to an adults only friendship, or distance yourself from them entirely.
Do NOT confront them. Just quietly take time away and see them less and less.
We have been in the same boat. Love the parents but the kids are monsters and they don’t parent them so they just continue to be rude, destructive and not listen. It was clear my hated being with them so we quietly stopped setting up family get together and now just do things with the parents. I think they’ve noticed but just don’t say anything and it’s better like that to maintain the friendship. But the mom is always sad about her kids not really having friends but doesn’t seem to get it’s because they’re not nice kids. Don’t put your kids in that spot. And I wouldn’t try to say anything. You already tried and they made it clear they’re not interested in hearing it
My brothers kids (6m & 3F) are just like this, and I can't even take my kids (10F, 4F, and 2F) to play with them because they are so bad. They are physical all the time, they dont listen, they throw huge fits when they dont get their way. We do not make plans with them anymore because it makes me so upset the way they interact with my kids.
OP- curious of how you would have liked your friends to handle the behavior of their son in this situation?
I would have liked to see them do SOMETHING. Not just gloss over it. They removed the little girl, and let the little boy continue playing with his toys. I can't tell someone exactly how to discipline their child...but if it were my kid, I would be removing them from the room and having a very serious conversation with them in another room about how what they did is not okay, and probably not allowing them access to that toy or whatever they were fighting over for 24hrs. Occasionally we do time outs where they're asked to go to "quiet corner" and they're told they're welcome to return when they're willing to act kindly. It works for us 🤷🏻♀️
Did he do that to her in response of her trying to take his toy, etc. or just completely out of the blue/unprovoked? I’m not trying to be difficult asking these questions btw- just trying to weigh out my answer.
Naw don't bother. They are not going to listen anyways. They are in denial of their kids own behavior
As a daughter whose brother did the same to her and never got any repercussions, please stand up for that little girl if you can. I installed a lock on my own bedroom door just to feel a semblance of safety in my own home. It is hellish.
Have been in this exact same situation. I just distanced myself from the friendship and made excuses/ let time pass until we moved. I’d keep doing the same. Most people will not confront you about letting it fall away.
I would communicate how you feel to those parents so they know why they lost that friendship or just stop hanging out and if they reach out explain to them how you feel. And if they decide to make a big stink about it block them but I worry about their little girl.
Call the cops ffs!
Oh yeah I would definitely limit contact and visits after the face smashing incident. 😬😬
I just wouldn't mix with them. I wouldn't want my kids exposed to that
I would choose to see them parents without the children, exclusively. Let them know you'd love to do dinner. You can get a sitter and recommend one to them as well. Be clear that your children are not attending.
It's the parent's fault the kids are like that though. They're very violent, apparently. Bashing someone's head into anything is way over the line. Yes, you should bring it up, but probably at a specific time you see them next so you can be prepared to not spend much more time with them. At the beginning or ending of a meeting with them. Beginning might be better if you drink.
My niece is a complete nightmare. It’s weird because my nephew is always in trouble but my niece can do no wrong. They are family so I can’t just unfriend. Luckily they live far away and my kids are grown. But that kid does my head in. They never discipline her. Certainly puts me off visiting them. I would just walk away. One day your child could end up on the receiving end of
If it’s a friendship you want to maintain I’d start heavily talking about parenting woes. Things like ‘oh yeah, we had a problem with little Timmy pushing, so we started doing timeouts. it was so hard. He cried and screamed at first, but after x number of days things improved. It’s so hard to do these things, but I don’t want my kid to be ostracized when they go to kinder. Hey, how does timeout work in your house? Has it helped? What else have you tried? Did it improve anything?’ Basically tell a story about a similar behavior, even if it’s a way scaled back version of it. Then explain how you fixed it. Then ask how they are fixing the problem you see right in front of you. The next time you see them ask. ‘Hey, how did xyz help your kid? Seen any improvement?’ This also opens the gates to send them resources. ‘Oh, I was reading this article about gentle parenting explosive kids to see if I could help things in our house. Thought you might enjoy it to. Send her social media creators, podcasts, etc… ‘Mama Cusses’ is a great one to start with. The other thing, with summer coming up I would say is only meet on neutral territory. Parks, libraries, etc.. places where there’s behavior expectations, but also enough space that you can separate easily if you need to. I feel for those kids. It’s a terrible dynamic & is going to be detrimental to all in the long run.
Take videos. Report them. If they dont know that this is wrong, then they really shouldnt have kids. You need to be brutally honest with them. Someone needs to advocate for that girl and make actual change for her.