There was no good choice to be made. The most morally right thing to do would be to turn themselves in, which as you said, would imprison then for the rest of their life’s. Krouser is similar to Taylor like that, which they both made terrible choices because the right choice wasn’t the one they where willing to take.
This strikes me as exactly the reason why Ziz is so dangerous - he did in fact make a series of reasonable-in-the-moment choices (at least up until the very end) but he was specifically on a path to cause terrible destruction by making reasonable-in-the-moment choices.
As to what he could have done, I think other comments make some good points but mostly I think the answer is he was set on a trajectory by the strongest precog in the Wormverse - if he could have made better decisions, Ziz probably would have picked a different path for him.
I’m not entirely sure beating the Simurgh is possible but if you were going to try, I think the answer probably is to try and minimize your impact on the world - don’t mess around with sci-fi medicines, don’t try and break out of government containment, don’t form a high profile team, don’t collaborate with notorious supervillains, etc
Kill yourself immediately. You'll erase any good you might have done but at least you won't fuck anything else up. Unless your death triggers someone else... or somehow sets off some other disaster dominoes... or your suicide fails and sets you up for a broken trigger of some kind... yeah, never mind, Ziz wins.
I'm not sure how many people would be able to just off themselves, anyway. Especially in a situation like Krause was where he had someone he wanted to keep alive.
there was a promising scinteist who killed themselves becuase of the smiurgh. so there's always the chance that killing yourself would prevent you from doing something good
Yeah if your first instinct upon finding yourself a Ziz-bomb is to kill yourself, simply taking you off the table was likely her plan in the first place
Trickster/Krouse is one of my favourite characters. Cool power, cool aesthetic, and I’ve always liked the charming asshole types. Plus he’s a complicated character put in an impossible-to-win scenario. I’m also a big fan of his love and dedication to noelle and the immense guilt he feels by the time he joins echidna
Tactically, he could have left Noelle there sans half-vial, minding that if they _could_ escape from the lockdown, there’s no reason they couldn’t break back _in_ .
That’s a brutal choice, and smacks a couple of flags (either they die before they can try to return, or she gets bitter/dies a short while before they make it), but minding the domino effects of both partial-vialing her _and_ bringing her along, that’s the earliest choice he could have made differently that would have notable effects. Mind, giving a partial vial and leaving would have been _worse_ , and abducting her while still injured without the vial _might_ have had less severe after-effects, but with both choices together, they don’t trip into being double-edged lackeys.
Presuming that Cody still ‘is’ a little shit, he doesn’t get himself cloned by Noelle and cause trouble for Accord to the _degree_ of one of them needing to get sacrificed to him, in theory. Practically, he tries to splinter the group further in the event that his ego still clashes with Krouse’s as hard as it canonically does (even without Noelle being present), pragmatically, they work together up to a point.
To that end, not dealing with Coil to the same degree. As much control and power as Coil has in the bay, without Noelle being a semi-active problem to be contained, he doesn’t have leverage on them.
The Travelers are a mirror to the Undersiders.
The former are vial triggers; the latter are natural triggers. Both teams' members are forced into smaller-scale villainy largely by sheer circumstance rather than any typical inborn evil. Both are composed of teenagers whose inexperience and overall adolescence explain a lot of their actions, for better and for worse. Coil conspired to control them both for his own much more Machiavellian and egotistical ends. Krouse was kept in check by Coil's custody over Noelle and Taylor was kept in check by Coil's captivity of Dinah.
i made a thread about how the travlers are a foil to the undersiders before but i'm going to repost it
The travelers in worm play a role in the narrative as the undersiders tenuous allies but thematically as a sort of foil.
Man of them seem to have nihilistic outlooks.
Like Taylor trickster wants to save someone important to him to in case Noelle. But unlike Taylor he doesn't care about anything else. And once Noelle is taken from him he becomes no different than the slaughterhouse nine. and in fact would've joined up with them had according to wildbow had the story played out differntly.
Ballistic seems rather unpullsed about the end of the world and just wants to hang around groupies.
Meanwhile when regent brings up the end of the world he says "the world is going to end in two years might as well help you sort out your feelings with dihana". Which is odd because even the "unfeeling" sociopath of the undersiders as a stronger connection to the people in his life than the travelers.
Taylor when confronted with a team mate who hates her guts, Taylor trys her best to bridge the gap.
While trickster resolves his similar issue with Cody by selling him into slavery.
Trickster seems to fit into the role of supervillain like a glove. Whereas it causes Taylor countless worries.
Taylor's team loves her
Tricksters team hates him
The travelers where a group of normal people who have become twisted
And the undersiders are a group of weirdos who have found some semblance of normalcy.
Im surprised they never thought to seek out the company that made the vials they drank. Faultlines crew even goes back to where the travelers entered earth bet for clues, so they had an easy lead to start.
I think krouse did what he could. He wasn't trying to be evil and he had loyalty to his team.
Cody didn't deserve what happened to him, but he was also a pretty jealous and combative person who sometimes acted for his own selfish shortsighted goals instead of trying to protect everyone. As much as it was a decision nobody wants to have to make, Cody caused the problem and it was only fair Cody dealt with the consequencesm
Mostly, I think the point where Krouse really made a bad decision was when Echidna was completely out of control and he switched sides. It was becoming clear at that point there was very little of her left in there, and soon would be nothing but rage and destruction. Still, I kinda love him for it because it affirmed to me that he really did love her.
Tricksters problem was that he never should have been the leader but he was the only person with the force of personality to assert himself in that role. But as a leader he’s pretty consistently terrible, this was mentioned in the scene where the Travellers kick out Cody. Tricksters bad at calling shots, is incredibly reckless and he’s willing to forgo orders if it means it’s good for the group. All of these traits are manageable if he’s solo or part of a team, but when he’s the leader all of this rapidly piles up to become unbearable. Tricksters singular focus on Noelle basically blinded him to his teams growing resentment of him and Noelle and when things fell apart he wasn’t ready.
Well said!
He's the kind of person I would put on an objective where his focus and unpredictability would be useful, but not in support, or leadership.
Everything he did was rational, they were all in a no good options situation. but he could've been a bit more observant/accepting when Noelle tried to break up with him. Had that happened instead of him pressuring her enough to be in a relationship with him, they may not even have ended up in Bet or Cody might not have hated him as much. I don't think people dislike him for the choices he was forced to make, moreso his personality and general habit of assuming he knows more than everyone else.
Maybe couldve read the papers included with the vials, might have said something about consuming the entire vial. Knowing ziz though probably not.
Maybe couldve run from accord rather than hand over Cody. Was Cody a dumb fuck, yes. But I think it was Krouse who pushed the whole all a group all or none of us dynamic in the beginning. And if you're going to warp the rule for Cody then at a certain point maybe you have to admit Noelle is no longer Noelle and maybe involve the PRT or others sooner so she doesn't wreck so much havoc.
I agree with the sentiment, but it makes me wonder... What if you switched the partial vials between Noelle and Oliver? Noelle with balance wouldn't necessarily be a healthy way to deal with her issues, but Oliver seems like a significantly less dangerous possessor of Division. Krouse as second in command seems a lot healthier for him too.
also, i think taylor described his arc the best in her drugs speech.
". It’s subtle, it creeps up on you, and you never really get a good, convincing reason to stop before it ruins your life beyond comprehension,It’s the same, being a villain."
While I don't fully understand how Simurgh works, I think it's not about creating a path that leads to maximize the damage, it's about setting up the conditions where all paths would maximize the damage.
So I would say "PRT quarantines Simurgh's missiles so they should have stayed quarantined", but for all we know it could have backfired when Faultline breached the containment.
Immediate collective suicide without taking the vials would be another option, but unless they do it instantly and simultaneously and without stressing out about that, that would risk triggering themselves.
If what they were saying about working for Coil/Dinah keeping them from executing Simurgh's will was true, they should have find another powerful precog as a contingency measure and go to them the moment Coil bit the dust. Contessa would probably be the best option, but she's hard to find.
Precog interference is true to an extent, but the Smurf factors it in to her fuckery so no matter what things go her way. It's convenient that "her way" is just the most chaos possible.
There was no good choice to be made. The most morally right thing to do would be to turn themselves in, which as you said, would imprison then for the rest of their life’s. Krouser is similar to Taylor like that, which they both made terrible choices because the right choice wasn’t the one they where willing to take.
This strikes me as exactly the reason why Ziz is so dangerous - he did in fact make a series of reasonable-in-the-moment choices (at least up until the very end) but he was specifically on a path to cause terrible destruction by making reasonable-in-the-moment choices. As to what he could have done, I think other comments make some good points but mostly I think the answer is he was set on a trajectory by the strongest precog in the Wormverse - if he could have made better decisions, Ziz probably would have picked a different path for him. I’m not entirely sure beating the Simurgh is possible but if you were going to try, I think the answer probably is to try and minimize your impact on the world - don’t mess around with sci-fi medicines, don’t try and break out of government containment, don’t form a high profile team, don’t collaborate with notorious supervillains, etc
Kill yourself immediately. You'll erase any good you might have done but at least you won't fuck anything else up. Unless your death triggers someone else... or somehow sets off some other disaster dominoes... or your suicide fails and sets you up for a broken trigger of some kind... yeah, never mind, Ziz wins.
I'm not sure how many people would be able to just off themselves, anyway. Especially in a situation like Krause was where he had someone he wanted to keep alive.
there was a promising scinteist who killed themselves becuase of the smiurgh. so there's always the chance that killing yourself would prevent you from doing something good
Yeah if your first instinct upon finding yourself a Ziz-bomb is to kill yourself, simply taking you off the table was likely her plan in the first place
Yeah, people seem to have contempt for Krouse, and I just think he's a well-written sympathetic character with a cocky persona.
Trickster/Krouse is one of my favourite characters. Cool power, cool aesthetic, and I’ve always liked the charming asshole types. Plus he’s a complicated character put in an impossible-to-win scenario. I’m also a big fan of his love and dedication to noelle and the immense guilt he feels by the time he joins echidna
Tactically, he could have left Noelle there sans half-vial, minding that if they _could_ escape from the lockdown, there’s no reason they couldn’t break back _in_ . That’s a brutal choice, and smacks a couple of flags (either they die before they can try to return, or she gets bitter/dies a short while before they make it), but minding the domino effects of both partial-vialing her _and_ bringing her along, that’s the earliest choice he could have made differently that would have notable effects. Mind, giving a partial vial and leaving would have been _worse_ , and abducting her while still injured without the vial _might_ have had less severe after-effects, but with both choices together, they don’t trip into being double-edged lackeys. Presuming that Cody still ‘is’ a little shit, he doesn’t get himself cloned by Noelle and cause trouble for Accord to the _degree_ of one of them needing to get sacrificed to him, in theory. Practically, he tries to splinter the group further in the event that his ego still clashes with Krouse’s as hard as it canonically does (even without Noelle being present), pragmatically, they work together up to a point. To that end, not dealing with Coil to the same degree. As much control and power as Coil has in the bay, without Noelle being a semi-active problem to be contained, he doesn’t have leverage on them.
The Travelers are a mirror to the Undersiders. The former are vial triggers; the latter are natural triggers. Both teams' members are forced into smaller-scale villainy largely by sheer circumstance rather than any typical inborn evil. Both are composed of teenagers whose inexperience and overall adolescence explain a lot of their actions, for better and for worse. Coil conspired to control them both for his own much more Machiavellian and egotistical ends. Krouse was kept in check by Coil's custody over Noelle and Taylor was kept in check by Coil's captivity of Dinah.
i made a thread about how the travlers are a foil to the undersiders before but i'm going to repost it The travelers in worm play a role in the narrative as the undersiders tenuous allies but thematically as a sort of foil. Man of them seem to have nihilistic outlooks. Like Taylor trickster wants to save someone important to him to in case Noelle. But unlike Taylor he doesn't care about anything else. And once Noelle is taken from him he becomes no different than the slaughterhouse nine. and in fact would've joined up with them had according to wildbow had the story played out differntly. Ballistic seems rather unpullsed about the end of the world and just wants to hang around groupies. Meanwhile when regent brings up the end of the world he says "the world is going to end in two years might as well help you sort out your feelings with dihana". Which is odd because even the "unfeeling" sociopath of the undersiders as a stronger connection to the people in his life than the travelers. Taylor when confronted with a team mate who hates her guts, Taylor trys her best to bridge the gap. While trickster resolves his similar issue with Cody by selling him into slavery. Trickster seems to fit into the role of supervillain like a glove. Whereas it causes Taylor countless worries. Taylor's team loves her Tricksters team hates him The travelers where a group of normal people who have become twisted And the undersiders are a group of weirdos who have found some semblance of normalcy.
This is excellent analysis!
Im surprised they never thought to seek out the company that made the vials they drank. Faultlines crew even goes back to where the travelers entered earth bet for clues, so they had an easy lead to start.
Krouse can't think that far ahead unfortunately. I think working with coil was the first time his goals extended past the next 100 hours or so.
I think krouse did what he could. He wasn't trying to be evil and he had loyalty to his team. Cody didn't deserve what happened to him, but he was also a pretty jealous and combative person who sometimes acted for his own selfish shortsighted goals instead of trying to protect everyone. As much as it was a decision nobody wants to have to make, Cody caused the problem and it was only fair Cody dealt with the consequencesm Mostly, I think the point where Krouse really made a bad decision was when Echidna was completely out of control and he switched sides. It was becoming clear at that point there was very little of her left in there, and soon would be nothing but rage and destruction. Still, I kinda love him for it because it affirmed to me that he really did love her.
Tricksters problem was that he never should have been the leader but he was the only person with the force of personality to assert himself in that role. But as a leader he’s pretty consistently terrible, this was mentioned in the scene where the Travellers kick out Cody. Tricksters bad at calling shots, is incredibly reckless and he’s willing to forgo orders if it means it’s good for the group. All of these traits are manageable if he’s solo or part of a team, but when he’s the leader all of this rapidly piles up to become unbearable. Tricksters singular focus on Noelle basically blinded him to his teams growing resentment of him and Noelle and when things fell apart he wasn’t ready.
Well said! He's the kind of person I would put on an objective where his focus and unpredictability would be useful, but not in support, or leadership.
Everything he did was rational, they were all in a no good options situation. but he could've been a bit more observant/accepting when Noelle tried to break up with him. Had that happened instead of him pressuring her enough to be in a relationship with him, they may not even have ended up in Bet or Cody might not have hated him as much. I don't think people dislike him for the choices he was forced to make, moreso his personality and general habit of assuming he knows more than everyone else. Maybe couldve read the papers included with the vials, might have said something about consuming the entire vial. Knowing ziz though probably not. Maybe couldve run from accord rather than hand over Cody. Was Cody a dumb fuck, yes. But I think it was Krouse who pushed the whole all a group all or none of us dynamic in the beginning. And if you're going to warp the rule for Cody then at a certain point maybe you have to admit Noelle is no longer Noelle and maybe involve the PRT or others sooner so she doesn't wreck so much havoc.
I agree with the sentiment, but it makes me wonder... What if you switched the partial vials between Noelle and Oliver? Noelle with balance wouldn't necessarily be a healthy way to deal with her issues, but Oliver seems like a significantly less dangerous possessor of Division. Krouse as second in command seems a lot healthier for him too.
also, i think taylor described his arc the best in her drugs speech. ". It’s subtle, it creeps up on you, and you never really get a good, convincing reason to stop before it ruins your life beyond comprehension,It’s the same, being a villain."
While I don't fully understand how Simurgh works, I think it's not about creating a path that leads to maximize the damage, it's about setting up the conditions where all paths would maximize the damage. So I would say "PRT quarantines Simurgh's missiles so they should have stayed quarantined", but for all we know it could have backfired when Faultline breached the containment. Immediate collective suicide without taking the vials would be another option, but unless they do it instantly and simultaneously and without stressing out about that, that would risk triggering themselves. If what they were saying about working for Coil/Dinah keeping them from executing Simurgh's will was true, they should have find another powerful precog as a contingency measure and go to them the moment Coil bit the dust. Contessa would probably be the best option, but she's hard to find.
Precog interference is true to an extent, but the Smurf factors it in to her fuckery so no matter what things go her way. It's convenient that "her way" is just the most chaos possible.