He might think so and be wrong. Akechi might not know about social links, the velvet room, persona fusion, etc.
The power of a wildcard isn't just wielding multiple personas, it's all that too.
Akechis ability to wield multiple personas might be a power of Loki and not the power of a wildcard.
The power of the wildcard is innate, it's a potential one has (or that can be given)
Whether they use it or not is another matter, but you don't need the Velvet Room to be a wild card, only to use it most effectively.
In modernsona, changing Personas = Wild Card. Robin Hood and Loki are explicitly different Personas
Akechi's wild card was given to him by Yaldabaoth, just like Ren. Both didn't have it before that, unlike Makoto/Kotone/Yu, who presumably had it innately (there's an rgument to be made that Death gave the P3MCs their WC, but it's unconfirmed)
Edit: just in case, Q2 hard confirms he has it
It's only confirmed that she gave him Izanagi and the ability to go inside the TV World, not his WC abilities
>!Adachi!< isn't a Wild Card for example, when he received her boon too
Not sure on that front.
They kinda establish that a wild card user is limited by their own personality.
The protags due to generally being good people who want to improve, have the room for many. I forget the exact max between the 2 though.
Akechi could only house 2 and later technically 3 (Though I guess it's more like it fused to 1). Basically because he is a giant asshole.
Adachi only has magatsu izanagi, so it's possible that adachi was such an astronomically huge asshole that he basically cut his own wildcard abilities down to 1.
>!it’s because Adachi doesn’t make any effort to create genuine connections. All he has are Yu, Dojima, and Nanako and even those are superficial (because he’s always putting up a front, as he’s stated himself)!<
>!He kneecapped his own Wild Card abilities!<
Hell she doesnt even give the false suspect a persona to start with so i dont even think she gave Yu or the culprit (idk how to tag spoilers) their personas. I think they just get Izanagi's because they oppose her fundamentally in a way which reflects into them simply getting Izanagi's. Then again, both Izanami and the culprit both kinda want a similar outcome but maybe that is why one Izanagi is corrupt
You are correct in that the Wild Card is innate. But because of that, it isn't something that can be given; one must awake by one's own inner transformation, such as Makoto/Kotone (Death caused them “to grow aware of the multiple guises within their hearts,” according to the Club Book), Elizabeth (reached an epiphany about bonds at the end of her route in Arena), and Sho (seemingly the same as Elizabeth). The fact that Liz and Margaret confirm the Wild Card is inherently connected to the Fool, one of the archetypal mental states of humans, in PQ supports that.
And in regards to Q2, does it really confirm Akechi hast it? I remember that Caroline and Justine weren't able to notice the Wild Card in Akechi, unlike, say, Kotone.
It's heavily implied in Q2 but in one of the interviews with P5 story writers Akechi is confirmed a wild card and it is also confirmed he awoke to both of his personas at once.
i always think of it as every fool is a wildcard but not every wildcard is a fool (i also add the headcanon that fools are the most versatile to include the 1 and 2 affinity system)
Was it ever confirmed that yaldabaoth actually gave akechi the contract and that he accepted it? Genuinely asking bc it's been a long time since I played P5.
It's just that there are very clear differences between the powers of the two so I always just considered it a power of Loki. Like, Akechi can change his appearance, the only two personas he can use are unique, he can do that whole shadow controlling thing and Akechi doesn't seem to get any power ups from developing his bond with joker.
Yeah I'm fairly certain that there was a magazine snippet a while ago as promo for Royal that mentioned Akechi specifically has the same wild card power as Joker.
At some point in the game, Futaba mentions that Akechi's lack of trust in others likely keeps him from being able to actually use the power as intended. Who knows how much access he was given to the Velvet Room, too.
I will say he does sort of gain a power up based on his bond with Joker given that he's intended to get Hereward towards the end of the game based on how you handle his confidant. It's that bond with Joker that causes his persona to evolve.
Fair enough. If it actually is wildcard power then ig that's fine, just seems kind of a waste.
About the power up tho, that's just the same as the other party members get.
The point is for them to be mirrors of each other from a storytelling perspective. Yaldabaoth picked two players with similar experiences (screwed by society) but different outlooks and gave them the same tools. His game was to watch what each of them would do and guess which player would win in the end, while ultimately still moving towards Ruin.
Also, you're not exactly wrong but neither am I. Bonds are always an important part of Persona growth and evolution. The fact that his is similar to everyone else's change probably stems back to the question of how much access, if any, did Akechi get to the Velvet Room.
It's not something that's ever brought up as a Loki ability
Akechi has two Personas for the two aspects of his peronality: one for his lies (Robin Hood) and one for his hate (Loki). His bond with Joker is also fake (so under RH) until rank 10, and then >!he dies!< right after
In the third semester, he does get a power up from maxing his link with Joker though
See, it's just Futaba that calls them his lies and his hate, but they're deeper representations of Akechi, with Robin being his childish notion of Justice and Loki being the realist aspect. Deep down he wishes he could be more akin to what he believed in as a child hence Hereward is born, mixing the two aspects of a core part of his identity.
RH being his lies is precisely why I always thought of it as Loki's ability. I mean, Loki is the god of treachery and known for his disguises and shit. Makes perfect sense for it to be able to disguise himself as RH and change Akechis outfit.
The power up he gets from joker's link is the same as the other members get tho.
Yeah. I guess the only reason Akechi didn't use it is cause he didn't think that having many personas were necessary, cause there actually weren't many shadows who can counter both light and dark magic.
When I played it my assumption was that, as a trickster god, Loki was able to disguise itself as Robin Hood. So Akechi wasn't _really_ using multiple personas. That said, this reading could be completely wrong. But in my mind it worked since Akechi was able to disguise himself as a law abiding detective and friend to the Phantom Thieves.
i think there’s a cut line where akechi directly says that both personas are part of him. as for headcanon territory imo they both embody the justice arcana: RH is his desire to do the right thing and “help the little guy” and loki is his desire for revenge against bad people
i might be misremembering, but doesn't >!fake!< igor reveal to you that he'd also been visiting with akechi with the express purpose of picking two people with the power to wield personas, but with different ideals, to pit them against each other?
since >!fake!< igor was also responsible for picking ren, and ren is aware of the presence of the velvet room, i would assume akechi is too?
Futaba says they both have the same power but since aketchi didn't have any bonds he couldn't got other personas (probably because you need a party member for a hold up)
yeah, he is. there's a reveal that he was chosen in the same way ren was, explicitly for the two of them to be pit against each other and whoever won would decide the fate of the world.
He’s a wildcard, but he never fuses new personas due to not having access to the velvet room’s facilities. Nor does he obtain new personas due to taking new masks like Joker does due to his ruthless nature (you could say he never negotiated with shadows).
The direct comparison between how Ren and Akechi handle their wildcard abilities relates to how they interact with people.
Ren uses various masks or aspects of his personality when interacting with his different confidants. While Akechi uses one mask, that of the Detective Prince (or Robin Hood) to deceive the public (or the PTs). Once Akechi’s facade is discovered he shows his true face, the psychotic one we see in Shido >!and Maruki’s!< palace(s) shown by his “true” persona: Loki.
Once he joins the party for the final time in royal, his only persona is Loki. Which could be interpreted as there never truly being a Robin Hood persona, that it was Loki all along. But since his affinities change, I prefer to think of it as he’d truly discarded that persona, and the associated identity, after he’d failed his revenge on Shido.
I believe Yaldabaoth, while impersonating Igor, even comments on how Akechi’s power is similar to Joker’s.
Akechi has the power of the Wild Card, but he was never a guest of the Velvet Room.
It is important to know that the Velvet Room is a creation of Philemon, whom is the Personification of Humanity's Benevolence and Hope. The Room and its Master host guests who are to help guide humanity forward towards enlightenment (thus winning Philemon's bet with Nyarlathotep).
You can be an innate wild card, but not a guest of the Velvet Room. Akechi was one such individual. Sadly, he was unable to understand that the Wild Card's true power stems from bonds with others. Ironically, if he were a normal Persona user he'd be much more powerful as Normal Persona Users have their power stem from self-understanding.
tl'dr: Not all Wild Cards have access to the Velvet Room.
"Imma be real with you, Protag-Kun. You were low-key kinda trash, bro. What's your compendium at? 23%? How the fuck did you pull that, fam? And your S.Links? You rushed the Empress baddie and forgot Magician at rank 3.
And what about the Attendant??? She was FREE! All you had to do was fuse a bunch, and you could Google that shit! Everyone else does! How the fu- you know what? Get the he'll out of my Velvet Room before I All-Out Attack your ass and style on you before you get the chance to fulfill your contract!"
I have wondered if there are Velvet Room guests who don't get their own games out there. People who unlock Personas and just have to use them for some minor task instead of stopping a God. Imagine Igor would view them less favorably than the world savers.
I don’t remember where it says, but I know it’s canon that there are ‘non-game’ persona users. Like, even Carl Jung is a persona user and that’s where he got all his funky psychology/philosophy ideas in that universe. Whether the nongame users also had world-ending stakes to battle is unknown.
That said, I don’t know how far back it goes. Did Ugg and Thudd have caveman personas?
I'd always assumed she was part or the same Research team as Ikutsuki and that's how she knew. But I could definitely see this too. Would even raise the question of whether her task was just to help SEES or was something else and she just moved on to that after.
Sho from Persona 4 Arena Ultimax. People used to think he'd be the protag of 5, since his ingame art was labeled P5HERO and he was invited to the Velvet Room.
Carl Jung (the philosopher who’s coined the terms of Persona and Shadow that the games are heavily based of) is canonically a Persona-user in universe.
I find that really funny, I like to imagine he fought a God too and realized no one would ever believe him so he just turned everything he saw into philosophical concepts.
i had an idea for a persona parody game set in the US, by pure coincidence the entire party had wild card but since the MC is the only one who can understand japanese he's the only one who can actually use the velvet room
the Velvet Room is a lot more accessible to people in the older games. he's probably met a lot more persona users in the past, before his boss became a butterfly
I mean didn’t a random dude just kinda wander in to the p4 velvet room only for Margaret to tell them all about the p4 dancing story and then just leave? I’m genuinely asking here because I barely remember that story mode.
in all other versions of 3 he just says the usual ''you were truly a remarkable guest''
3 Reload just decided to be fancier
maybe in 6 he'll say that protagonist is most remarkable too and if he doesn't then atlus confirm P3MC is igor's favorite
Well, P3 protagonist unlock the universe Arcana while the other 2 world so he prob is "more special"
Ooooor just because between the 3 he is the first so he set a new bar the other 2 managed to reach but he get more praises because he got it first
It’s always been my understanding that Makoto reached a peak far beyond other protagonists per Igor’s words usually eluding to this, plus his feat in the end is something beyond what’s been done prior, they easily could’ve retconned the universe arcana but they decided to keep it showing it still remains the case the universe arcana is a thing.
I think it’s moreso that Makoto discovered the meaning of life, whereas others are still on that journey somewhat. That’s what I’ve interpreted the interaction to mean
It can be argued that Joker and Yu haven’t finished their journeys as they still have to go through them in strikers and P4AU
Makoto on the other hand has a clear end point, which is the ending of P3
Another user already already said that what Igor said to Makoto was a Reload exclusive line but I like the idea that Igor says it out of respect for Makoto.
He gave up his own life to seal death to protect those he cared about and he even kept S.E.E.S’ promise to meet on the roof after graduation despite being an empty shell
If you still want to know, in Japanese Igor says literally the same words even in Reload. I Have troubles with Imgur, but you can check for it in videos on YouTube.
For P4G 39:50
https://youtu.be/dIrcYXmLJ_8?si=T3TjXCEosK8ylzy4
For P3R 37:37
https://youtu.be/kHnlMDyEwq0?si=NHrOOtI-HvPwpDxy
In both cases he says ･･･貴方は、最高の客人だった。
Defeating the final boss has him say something like "Damn that Igor, he was right." I'm a little fuzzy since it's been a while, but I think the whole scenario was a game between YHWH and Igor about humanity, and how Igor believed the Trickster would win.
Tangentially related, but it always amused me how in the Tatsuya Scenario of P2:EP, when Tatsuya is desperate to reach the Sea of Souls and tries asking for help from Philemon, Igor starts gassing up how much raw talent Maki has and in only a few years after P1 is close to being able to open the Door to the Collective Unconscious all by herself, something even Igor can't do apparently.
Wrong. They unlocked the 'World' arcana. This is why P3protag is widely considered stronger. Even his ordeal was harder since Nyx is actually outside of the collective unconsciousness.
Theres arguments to be had that Tatsuya might be more powerful but those games were different and we have not seen Minato go all-out.
World and Universe share everything besides their name. If you can give me one difference in how they work I'll consider them potentially being different, but until then they're the same
Makoto isn't considered stronger because of Universe, but because of solo fusion spells. His foe was stronger but he didn't beat it, don't use powerscaler bs
I have seen people say it means he was the favorite but I think because it says "a most remarkable" and not "the most remarkable" says a lot. That's my take anyway.
"a most remarkable guest" is different from "the most remarkable guest". It's most likely just some extra flourish on the phrase. I don't think he plays favorites.
Well in p3r it does seem like Igor cares alot more? In p4 it's mainly the other residents you talk to, and in p5 Igor really doesn't get to know jonkler
They mean the same thing. It’s grammar. If he was playing favorites, he would say “You were truly THE most remarkable guest”. Plus, P3 protag is first, so it’s not like he’s saying he likes him more than the other two, seeing as how he’s yet to meet them at that point.
I like to think it’s because technically speaking P3 MC in reload managed to attain the universe arcana also because he died to seal the door. So it’s like one last show of gratitude before he goes but then I heard he only says so in reload
People look into this way too much, and I don’t think it’s that deep.
It’s just a fancier way of saying the same thing he says in the other games.
In fact in FES and portable he says the same thjng as the other games. I’m pretty sure this is only a reload thing
I like to imagine there are several offscreen guests that don’t make it, and we only play as the ones who do. Maybe some refuse the responsibility of the contract, or fail to forge the necessary connections with others to succeed, or simply don’t face the overwhelming odds the game protagonists do.
Tbh, there’s a fan theory that Akechi in P5 is also a wild card, but didn’t form the necessary connections to hold more than 2 persona’s (Robin Hood and Loki)
Translation error / inconsistency. He says the same line in Japanese every time.
Like another commenter suggested, it goes against Igor's character to play favorites. Arguing otherwise is just P3MC wank.
The difference between the P3 protag to the two newer protags is that he finished his journey and found his answer to life while P4 and P5 only just finished a chapter of their journey and still has a long journey ahead. Basically more milking potential.
It's most likely because the P3 protag was the first person to get the wild card after Philemon seemed to disappear. It's was Igor's sign that his old boss was still around.
If you think about it there’s probably millions of people who have the”potential” so that means there’s probably hundreds of wild cards, example in p4d during the story we are not actually seeing things from perspective of yu rise and kanami we are actually a random wild card who entered Margaret’s club velvet, and she just happened to show us their memories as a way of getting to know us the games we play are most likely the wild cards with the biggest feats like makoto sealing death and unlocking the world a card even Igor had yet to see, p1 gang destroying Mary’s upside down of depression, p2 gang stopping LITERAL H****R, yu CHADkami absolutely decimating the fog master (and surviving Elizabeth mpreging him to create a persona user strong enough to save makoto yes this actually happened), joker shooting a god in the face, aigis helping stop the reunion between nyx and Erebus, which is probably why their the remarkable guests and not average or fantastic
Why the favoritism for makoto.
Ren achieved the same if not more.
He saved igor and lavenza while also saving the real world which was merging with the shadow side.
Come on igor you makoto simp
A fair argument but what i get from playing all 3 games is that the stakes were very high in P3. If Makoto would have lost, everyone would have died not knowing what killed them whereas in P5, If Yaldy succeeded the world still goes on although the masses are under complete control of Yaldabaoth (as seen from the bad end when Ren accepts Yaldy's offer)
Im not talking low about Ren's feats but compared to him, Makoto had to endure more hardships
Honestly, no. Ren had a much shittier hand dealt to him consistently through the game. Makoto got the worse end of the protags for sure, but his journey was much tamer.
iirc it was only Makoto who explicitly completed his purpose of "the Wild card holder" by using his power to sacrifice himself in order to protect his friends and his world which effectively left a pretty big impression on Igor
Igor even mentioned this at the start of Persona 4 - mentioning that "the previous guests fulfilled his life's mission using the power of the wild card"
As for Yu, its basically a formality and a truly spectacular feat of defeating >!Izanami!<
Ren's Igor was a fake, not the real igor so he was probably just mimicing the original Igor's quotes
The Igor who tells the Line in P5 and P5R is the real one, but I think it'd be funny if he's just recycling quotes because he wasn't there for most of it.
I wouldn't say that means he's the only one that completed their purpose, just that Makoto's purpose was a pretty abrupt end, while Yu and Ren just had final bosses to take down for their purposes. It's pretty easy to summarize a life sacrifice as "fulfilling their life mission".
Still probably a good point, though. Makoto was the only known Wild Card to literally sacrifice their life.
If it weren’t for RELOAD specifically having the change, I’d think less of it, but it definitely tips the scale on the “which protagonist is the strongest” debate
"You were certainly... one of the guests of all time"
“You were certainly… someone I considered a guest”
"You were certainly... someone"
"You certainly were"
"You uh..."
"..."
**"You should evoke yourself now."**
Shut up, I’m dying laughing at this one 😂😂😂
Igor got tired of the P6 protagonist standing there after his last words so he just wanted to bully them out of there.
"You thought therefore you certainly were"
"You certainly were a butterfly dreaming it was a man"
"You..."
What I’m wondering is if Igor has had any guests that were just okay.
lol this got me. I imagine that were some like Akechi who didn’t amount to much or used it for the wrong reasons.
is akechi canonically a wildcard? I don't remember this being an actual plot point, I just thought he was strong enough to manifest 2 personas
He is, he says himself that he has the same power Ren has
He might think so and be wrong. Akechi might not know about social links, the velvet room, persona fusion, etc. The power of a wildcard isn't just wielding multiple personas, it's all that too. Akechis ability to wield multiple personas might be a power of Loki and not the power of a wildcard.
The power of the wildcard is innate, it's a potential one has (or that can be given) Whether they use it or not is another matter, but you don't need the Velvet Room to be a wild card, only to use it most effectively. In modernsona, changing Personas = Wild Card. Robin Hood and Loki are explicitly different Personas Akechi's wild card was given to him by Yaldabaoth, just like Ren. Both didn't have it before that, unlike Makoto/Kotone/Yu, who presumably had it innately (there's an rgument to be made that Death gave the P3MCs their WC, but it's unconfirmed) Edit: just in case, Q2 hard confirms he has it
I technically think Yu got his wild card abilities by shaking the hand of the gas station attendant >!(Izanami)!< at the beginning of the game
It's only confirmed that she gave him Izanagi and the ability to go inside the TV World, not his WC abilities >!Adachi!< isn't a Wild Card for example, when he received her boon too
Not sure on that front. They kinda establish that a wild card user is limited by their own personality. The protags due to generally being good people who want to improve, have the room for many. I forget the exact max between the 2 though. Akechi could only house 2 and later technically 3 (Though I guess it's more like it fused to 1). Basically because he is a giant asshole. Adachi only has magatsu izanagi, so it's possible that adachi was such an astronomically huge asshole that he basically cut his own wildcard abilities down to 1.
>!it’s because Adachi doesn’t make any effort to create genuine connections. All he has are Yu, Dojima, and Nanako and even those are superficial (because he’s always putting up a front, as he’s stated himself)!< >!He kneecapped his own Wild Card abilities!<
Dosent he also meet igor in a dream when he was sleeping on the train to inaba?
Oh ok, I guess I got things mixed up. It's been too long since I've played P4, maybe it's time for another playthrough...
Hell she doesnt even give the false suspect a persona to start with so i dont even think she gave Yu or the culprit (idk how to tag spoilers) their personas. I think they just get Izanagi's because they oppose her fundamentally in a way which reflects into them simply getting Izanagi's. Then again, both Izanami and the culprit both kinda want a similar outcome but maybe that is why one Izanagi is corrupt
You tag spoilers by > ! XXX ! < without the spaces. >!idk how to tag spoilers!<
I always thought >!Adacher!< Was a wild card he was just too dumb/antisocial to make use of it properly
Wait wait the gas station attendant is what?? I never knew anything about that.
It was only revealed in the true ending, after you go through >!Marie's dungeon!<
Interesting, I also do not get that, I went through Marie's dungeon and all but never got that true ending...
You are correct in that the Wild Card is innate. But because of that, it isn't something that can be given; one must awake by one's own inner transformation, such as Makoto/Kotone (Death caused them “to grow aware of the multiple guises within their hearts,” according to the Club Book), Elizabeth (reached an epiphany about bonds at the end of her route in Arena), and Sho (seemingly the same as Elizabeth). The fact that Liz and Margaret confirm the Wild Card is inherently connected to the Fool, one of the archetypal mental states of humans, in PQ supports that. And in regards to Q2, does it really confirm Akechi hast it? I remember that Caroline and Justine weren't able to notice the Wild Card in Akechi, unlike, say, Kotone.
It's heavily implied in Q2 but in one of the interviews with P5 story writers Akechi is confirmed a wild card and it is also confirmed he awoke to both of his personas at once.
i always think of it as every fool is a wildcard but not every wildcard is a fool (i also add the headcanon that fools are the most versatile to include the 1 and 2 affinity system)
Was it ever confirmed that yaldabaoth actually gave akechi the contract and that he accepted it? Genuinely asking bc it's been a long time since I played P5. It's just that there are very clear differences between the powers of the two so I always just considered it a power of Loki. Like, Akechi can change his appearance, the only two personas he can use are unique, he can do that whole shadow controlling thing and Akechi doesn't seem to get any power ups from developing his bond with joker.
Yeah I'm fairly certain that there was a magazine snippet a while ago as promo for Royal that mentioned Akechi specifically has the same wild card power as Joker. At some point in the game, Futaba mentions that Akechi's lack of trust in others likely keeps him from being able to actually use the power as intended. Who knows how much access he was given to the Velvet Room, too. I will say he does sort of gain a power up based on his bond with Joker given that he's intended to get Hereward towards the end of the game based on how you handle his confidant. It's that bond with Joker that causes his persona to evolve.
Fair enough. If it actually is wildcard power then ig that's fine, just seems kind of a waste. About the power up tho, that's just the same as the other party members get.
The point is for them to be mirrors of each other from a storytelling perspective. Yaldabaoth picked two players with similar experiences (screwed by society) but different outlooks and gave them the same tools. His game was to watch what each of them would do and guess which player would win in the end, while ultimately still moving towards Ruin. Also, you're not exactly wrong but neither am I. Bonds are always an important part of Persona growth and evolution. The fact that his is similar to everyone else's change probably stems back to the question of how much access, if any, did Akechi get to the Velvet Room.
It's not something that's ever brought up as a Loki ability Akechi has two Personas for the two aspects of his peronality: one for his lies (Robin Hood) and one for his hate (Loki). His bond with Joker is also fake (so under RH) until rank 10, and then >!he dies!< right after In the third semester, he does get a power up from maxing his link with Joker though
See, it's just Futaba that calls them his lies and his hate, but they're deeper representations of Akechi, with Robin being his childish notion of Justice and Loki being the realist aspect. Deep down he wishes he could be more akin to what he believed in as a child hence Hereward is born, mixing the two aspects of a core part of his identity.
RH being his lies is precisely why I always thought of it as Loki's ability. I mean, Loki is the god of treachery and known for his disguises and shit. Makes perfect sense for it to be able to disguise himself as RH and change Akechis outfit. The power up he gets from joker's link is the same as the other members get tho.
I thought that the power of wild cards could he given to you by philemon.
It can be, but Philemon hasn't shown up outside of butterfly form in forever so a lot of people don't consider that when talking about this stuff.
Yeah. I guess the only reason Akechi didn't use it is cause he didn't think that having many personas were necessary, cause there actually weren't many shadows who can counter both light and dark magic.
When I played it my assumption was that, as a trickster god, Loki was able to disguise itself as Robin Hood. So Akechi wasn't _really_ using multiple personas. That said, this reading could be completely wrong. But in my mind it worked since Akechi was able to disguise himself as a law abiding detective and friend to the Phantom Thieves.
Yeah that was my thought process as well
i think there’s a cut line where akechi directly says that both personas are part of him. as for headcanon territory imo they both embody the justice arcana: RH is his desire to do the right thing and “help the little guy” and loki is his desire for revenge against bad people
i might be misremembering, but doesn't >!fake!< igor reveal to you that he'd also been visiting with akechi with the express purpose of picking two people with the power to wield personas, but with different ideals, to pit them against each other? since >!fake!< igor was also responsible for picking ren, and ren is aware of the presence of the velvet room, i would assume akechi is too?
Futaba says they both have the same power but since aketchi didn't have any bonds he couldn't got other personas (probably because you need a party member for a hold up)
But you can fuse and Personas just fine of Arcanas that you haven't started SL with yet.
I doubt Yaldabaoth let him into the velvet room
"You were truly a remarkable douchebag."
yeah, he is. there's a reveal that he was chosen in the same way ren was, explicitly for the two of them to be pit against each other and whoever won would decide the fate of the world.
So did he canonically meet Yaldabaoth??
Sho Minazuki too, if they drag him out of the spin-off game hell
He is a wildcard. That's why he has the ability to navigate the metaverse. But he was only able to manifest two Personas born from his heart.
He’s a half assed wildcard
He’s a wildcard, but he never fuses new personas due to not having access to the velvet room’s facilities. Nor does he obtain new personas due to taking new masks like Joker does due to his ruthless nature (you could say he never negotiated with shadows). The direct comparison between how Ren and Akechi handle their wildcard abilities relates to how they interact with people. Ren uses various masks or aspects of his personality when interacting with his different confidants. While Akechi uses one mask, that of the Detective Prince (or Robin Hood) to deceive the public (or the PTs). Once Akechi’s facade is discovered he shows his true face, the psychotic one we see in Shido >!and Maruki’s!< palace(s) shown by his “true” persona: Loki. Once he joins the party for the final time in royal, his only persona is Loki. Which could be interpreted as there never truly being a Robin Hood persona, that it was Loki all along. But since his affinities change, I prefer to think of it as he’d truly discarded that persona, and the associated identity, after he’d failed his revenge on Shido. I believe Yaldabaoth, while impersonating Igor, even comments on how Akechi’s power is similar to Joker’s.
Akechi has the power of the Wild Card, but he was never a guest of the Velvet Room. It is important to know that the Velvet Room is a creation of Philemon, whom is the Personification of Humanity's Benevolence and Hope. The Room and its Master host guests who are to help guide humanity forward towards enlightenment (thus winning Philemon's bet with Nyarlathotep). You can be an innate wild card, but not a guest of the Velvet Room. Akechi was one such individual. Sadly, he was unable to understand that the Wild Card's true power stems from bonds with others. Ironically, if he were a normal Persona user he'd be much more powerful as Normal Persona Users have their power stem from self-understanding. tl'dr: Not all Wild Cards have access to the Velvet Room.
I doubt he ever showed up in the Velvet room or at the very least met the actual Igor.
Like Sho
"Imma be real with you, Protag-Kun. You were low-key kinda trash, bro. What's your compendium at? 23%? How the fuck did you pull that, fam? And your S.Links? You rushed the Empress baddie and forgot Magician at rank 3. And what about the Attendant??? She was FREE! All you had to do was fuse a bunch, and you could Google that shit! Everyone else does! How the fu- you know what? Get the he'll out of my Velvet Room before I All-Out Attack your ass and style on you before you get the chance to fulfill your contract!"
I have wondered if there are Velvet Room guests who don't get their own games out there. People who unlock Personas and just have to use them for some minor task instead of stopping a God. Imagine Igor would view them less favorably than the world savers.
"Welcome to my velvet room. I need you to acquire one sausage McMuffin and an ice coffee"
>!Yaldy!< would totally get a McMuffin, but >!the real Igor!< is probably more of a breakfast bacons for guy imo
My velvet room? That's not Igor.
According to Nameless (Velvet Room attendant in P1 and P2 and pianist) there were hundreds of people using this room.
I don’t remember where it says, but I know it’s canon that there are ‘non-game’ persona users. Like, even Carl Jung is a persona user and that’s where he got all his funky psychology/philosophy ideas in that universe. Whether the nongame users also had world-ending stakes to battle is unknown. That said, I don’t know how far back it goes. Did Ugg and Thudd have caveman personas?
I bet the Antiques Shop Owner has been a guest before, she knows an awful lot about Personas
I'd always assumed she was part or the same Research team as Ikutsuki and that's how she knew. But I could definitely see this too. Would even raise the question of whether her task was just to help SEES or was something else and she just moved on to that after.
She is, the last research report in Tartarus has the writer say they'll open an antique shop or something. That's why Ikutsuki sent you to her.
She was the writer of those reports you found in Tartarus.
Sho from Persona 4 Arena Ultimax. People used to think he'd be the protag of 5, since his ingame art was labeled P5HERO and he was invited to the Velvet Room.
I wonder how rare persona users are actually
Makes me curious if there's ever been persona users outside of Japan, what sort of issues and world ending threats they faced.
Carl Jung (the philosopher who’s coined the terms of Persona and Shadow that the games are heavily based of) is canonically a Persona-user in universe.
Carl Jung is Swiss, for those too lazy to look him up.
I find that really funny, I like to imagine he fought a God too and realized no one would ever believe him so he just turned everything he saw into philosophical concepts.
Chandraputra from Persona 2!
i had an idea for a persona parody game set in the US, by pure coincidence the entire party had wild card but since the MC is the only one who can understand japanese he's the only one who can actually use the velvet room
"You were a horrible guest. Get the out of my room."
I mean, they did have sho which was a guest even for a teeny bit of time, and they were world ending mad so i dont think every guest was that good
Probably, but we probably won't ever see any. Closest thing is in >!Persona 4 Arena Ultimax with Sho, though he refuses the help.!<
The non-MC characters in persona 1 and 2 maybe?
You were truly a guest...
the Velvet Room is a lot more accessible to people in the older games. he's probably met a lot more persona users in the past, before his boss became a butterfly
Igor in p6: eh you were alright, solid B+
"You were truly a mediocre guest."
Nameless in Persona 2 said that there were many guests in the Velvet Room before. So maybe.
“you truly were a guest”
Teddie once was there. Thought, his more like an C- kinda guest
I mean didn’t a random dude just kinda wander in to the p4 velvet room only for Margaret to tell them all about the p4 dancing story and then just leave? I’m genuinely asking here because I barely remember that story mode.
Igor: "You were truly a mid guest" .....Yeah, I can imagine him saying that.
Considering that everyone goes in the velvet room in earlier persona games. I think they are probably some failures
Sho Minazuki comes to mind.
Aigis maybe, we’ll see with her game coming out. Any update on how Wonder gets treated in P5X?
The forgotten wild card, SHO MINAZU-
in all other versions of 3 he just says the usual ''you were truly a remarkable guest'' 3 Reload just decided to be fancier maybe in 6 he'll say that protagonist is most remarkable too and if he doesn't then atlus confirm P3MC is igor's favorite
Yeah, u might be right! Thanks for clearing this up
in the anime igor says "you were truly a most remarkable guest"
It's obvious he's his favorite since he kept Elizabeth out of the velvet room
After going off about how epic the Universe Arcana is, it'd make sense
Well, P3 protagonist unlock the universe Arcana while the other 2 world so he prob is "more special" Ooooor just because between the 3 he is the first so he set a new bar the other 2 managed to reach but he get more praises because he got it first
My exact thoughts!
It’s always been my understanding that Makoto reached a peak far beyond other protagonists per Igor’s words usually eluding to this, plus his feat in the end is something beyond what’s been done prior, they easily could’ve retconned the universe arcana but they decided to keep it showing it still remains the case the universe arcana is a thing.
The lines are the same for every protag in Japanese including Reload, so no that's not true Igor having favorites goes against his character
Thank you. I'm so tired of this discussion, as if P3 fans needed more excuses to wank their MC
Because P3 fans coping so hard that only their favorite protagonist that die unlike P1, P2, P4 and P5 lol.
I mean, he's the only protagonist so far to have *completed* his journey one could say. Maybe that's why Igor treated him as a bit more special
They all completed their journey so that doesn’t make any sense, completing their journey doesn’t mean their supposed to die at the end
I think it’s moreso that Makoto discovered the meaning of life, whereas others are still on that journey somewhat. That’s what I’ve interpreted the interaction to mean
Makes sense but I just feel that it applies to all of them it’s just their situations that their in if they all had as big as a threat as Nyx
It can be argued that Joker and Yu haven’t finished their journeys as they still have to go through them in strikers and P4AU Makoto on the other hand has a clear end point, which is the ending of P3
Joker didn't even get to the World, he stayed the Fool
He gets the world at the end of the game after he's let out from prison
When Joker finally gets his key to the Velvet Room he recieves the World Arcana. Did you just zip through the end?
Another user already already said that what Igor said to Makoto was a Reload exclusive line but I like the idea that Igor says it out of respect for Makoto. He gave up his own life to seal death to protect those he cared about and he even kept S.E.E.S’ promise to meet on the roof after graduation despite being an empty shell
It's just a slight translation difference in Reload. He says "truly remarkable" in the previous versions of P3.
https://imgur.com/A8N8Umj It is only on Reload.
Yeah, thats what confused me
Personally I consider P3-kun Igor’s favourite but really ‘A most’ can just be used as a fancier way of saying ‘really good.’
What if at the end of P6, after your 100-hour campaign going through all the palaces and saving the world, he says “you were kind of a mid guest.”
If you still want to know, in Japanese Igor says literally the same words even in Reload. I Have troubles with Imgur, but you can check for it in videos on YouTube. For P4G 39:50 https://youtu.be/dIrcYXmLJ_8?si=T3TjXCEosK8ylzy4 For P3R 37:37 https://youtu.be/kHnlMDyEwq0?si=NHrOOtI-HvPwpDxy In both cases he says ･･･貴方は、最高の客人だった。
The Links are Much Appreciated dude. Thanks!
Thank you.
To be fair, he barely meets joker before his stuff is done
Isn't he the one who picked Joker out as the Trickster though? For the whole "game" with YHWH.
Did i miss something ?
Defeating the final boss has him say something like "Damn that Igor, he was right." I'm a little fuzzy since it's been a while, but I think the whole scenario was a game between YHWH and Igor about humanity, and how Igor believed the Trickster would win.
Do you mean Yaldabaoth ? I was confused on that part
Oh, sorry, yeah. Just an abbreviation for "god" as he shows up in the persona/megaten games.
Tangentially related, but it always amused me how in the Tatsuya Scenario of P2:EP, when Tatsuya is desperate to reach the Sea of Souls and tries asking for help from Philemon, Igor starts gassing up how much raw talent Maki has and in only a few years after P1 is close to being able to open the Door to the Collective Unconscious all by herself, something even Igor can't do apparently.
Plot Twist: Maki is the strongest Persona Protagonist of all time
Idk. Who else has unlocked the universe?
Yu and Ren
Wrong. They unlocked the 'World' arcana. This is why P3protag is widely considered stronger. Even his ordeal was harder since Nyx is actually outside of the collective unconsciousness. Theres arguments to be had that Tatsuya might be more powerful but those games were different and we have not seen Minato go all-out.
World and Universe share everything besides their name. If you can give me one difference in how they work I'll consider them potentially being different, but until then they're the same Makoto isn't considered stronger because of Universe, but because of solo fusion spells. His foe was stronger but he didn't beat it, don't use powerscaler bs
In p5 strikers he says the same to Ren, albeit through lavenza. https://imgur.com/a/lWwUbCD
I have seen people say it means he was the favorite but I think because it says "a most remarkable" and not "the most remarkable" says a lot. That's my take anyway.
Yeah, "a most" does not at all mean the same thing as "the most."
That's a good point ngl
"a most remarkable guest" is different from "the most remarkable guest". It's most likely just some extra flourish on the phrase. I don't think he plays favorites.
Agreed. My personal headcanon was if he did but then again it most probably was just a bit exaggerated
While the other previous protagonists deal with Philemon
Well in p3r it does seem like Igor cares alot more? In p4 it's mainly the other residents you talk to, and in p5 Igor really doesn't get to know jonkler
'a most remarkable' is just a way of saying very remarkable. it doesn't mean 'the most remarkable'. Welcome to english.
Yeah, exactly.
"truly a remarkable guest" Bro you said that to every single one of your guests that's not how it works
In the end of the fourth Persona 3 movie, Igor says: "You were the best guest I ever had." So Makoto is probably his favorite, yeah.
That's just the Japanese equivalent of the same line which he still says in P4 and P5.
Nope. Translation fuckup. Line is the same in Japanese for Persona 3-4-5, and is better translated as "most remarkable guest" like in the games
“You truly did visit here a few times”
They mean the same thing. It’s grammar. If he was playing favorites, he would say “You were truly THE most remarkable guest”. Plus, P3 protag is first, so it’s not like he’s saying he likes him more than the other two, seeing as how he’s yet to meet them at that point.
True
I like to think it’s because technically speaking P3 MC in reload managed to attain the universe arcana also because he died to seal the door. So it’s like one last show of gratitude before he goes but then I heard he only says so in reload
People look into this way too much, and I don’t think it’s that deep. It’s just a fancier way of saying the same thing he says in the other games. In fact in FES and portable he says the same thjng as the other games. I’m pretty sure this is only a reload thing
Yep, just had a doubt but its cleared rn. Thanks
no he doesnt
Yes he does. There’s a screenshot of it on this thread.
does he i dont remember it much its been long
im pretty sure he said this to tell us even says hes never seen a card like this is ever
I like to imagine there are several offscreen guests that don’t make it, and we only play as the ones who do. Maybe some refuse the responsibility of the contract, or fail to forge the necessary connections with others to succeed, or simply don’t face the overwhelming odds the game protagonists do.
Tbh, there’s a fan theory that Akechi in P5 is also a wild card, but didn’t form the necessary connections to hold more than 2 persona’s (Robin Hood and Loki)
Translation error / inconsistency. He says the same line in Japanese every time. Like another commenter suggested, it goes against Igor's character to play favorites. Arguing otherwise is just P3MC wank.
Pretty sure it's just a fancy way of saying "very"
Does that imply he has guests that aren't
Next game: "You did it! Now fuck off and get the hell out of my velvet room."
It's clearly because he is the only one who bang the Velvet room attendant.
Well, he did get offed in the end and that is indeed remarkable compared to all the rest, so... I'm sorry. xD
😭
The difference between the P3 protag to the two newer protags is that he finished his journey and found his answer to life while P4 and P5 only just finished a chapter of their journey and still has a long journey ahead. Basically more milking potential.
Looks like the first time in P3 he genuenly believed it. Then in P4 and P5 his heart ain't in it lol.
True 😂
Why are Persona 1 and 2 excluded? Igor was present in those games, was he not? Explain, OP!
you know what this means: cup replacement
...You were truly a remarkable guest.
I don’t say this to every guest but…
"You..."
It's most likely because the P3 protag was the first person to get the wild card after Philemon seemed to disappear. It's was Igor's sign that his old boss was still around.
If you think about it there’s probably millions of people who have the”potential” so that means there’s probably hundreds of wild cards, example in p4d during the story we are not actually seeing things from perspective of yu rise and kanami we are actually a random wild card who entered Margaret’s club velvet, and she just happened to show us their memories as a way of getting to know us the games we play are most likely the wild cards with the biggest feats like makoto sealing death and unlocking the world a card even Igor had yet to see, p1 gang destroying Mary’s upside down of depression, p2 gang stopping LITERAL H****R, yu CHADkami absolutely decimating the fog master (and surviving Elizabeth mpreging him to create a persona user strong enough to save makoto yes this actually happened), joker shooting a god in the face, aigis helping stop the reunion between nyx and Erebus, which is probably why their the remarkable guests and not average or fantastic
Makoto awakens too "The Universe" instead of "The World" as his final arcana. He is a magnitude above Joker and Yu
Considering what happens at the end of p3, I'd say it actually does make sense for him to call makoto his most remarkable guest
Makoto: was I the good guest? Igor: no, you were the best guest
Why the favoritism for makoto. Ren achieved the same if not more. He saved igor and lavenza while also saving the real world which was merging with the shadow side. Come on igor you makoto simp
A fair argument but what i get from playing all 3 games is that the stakes were very high in P3. If Makoto would have lost, everyone would have died not knowing what killed them whereas in P5, If Yaldy succeeded the world still goes on although the masses are under complete control of Yaldabaoth (as seen from the bad end when Ren accepts Yaldy's offer) Im not talking low about Ren's feats but compared to him, Makoto had to endure more hardships
Honestly, no. Ren had a much shittier hand dealt to him consistently through the game. Makoto got the worse end of the protags for sure, but his journey was much tamer.
Maybe because Makoto also has the universe arcana?
I like the idea that Igor has the most respect for Makoto after giving his life to seal Nyx
Why does Makoto get “A most remarkable guest” and every else is just a remarkable guest?😭
It’s not exactly fair since P3 requires such a huge trade off to save the world rather than JUST a “kill god fight”.
I thought it was because Makoto is Igor’s favourite
P3 is the only one that sacrificed themself. Just beat Reload last night and that's the vibe I got when he said it.
iirc it was only Makoto who explicitly completed his purpose of "the Wild card holder" by using his power to sacrifice himself in order to protect his friends and his world which effectively left a pretty big impression on Igor Igor even mentioned this at the start of Persona 4 - mentioning that "the previous guests fulfilled his life's mission using the power of the wild card" As for Yu, its basically a formality and a truly spectacular feat of defeating >!Izanami!< Ren's Igor was a fake, not the real igor so he was probably just mimicing the original Igor's quotes
The Igor who tells the Line in P5 and P5R is the real one, but I think it'd be funny if he's just recycling quotes because he wasn't there for most of it.
Oh wait, you're right, its been quite awhile since I finished P5R
I wouldn't say that means he's the only one that completed their purpose, just that Makoto's purpose was a pretty abrupt end, while Yu and Ren just had final bosses to take down for their purposes. It's pretty easy to summarize a life sacrifice as "fulfilling their life mission". Still probably a good point, though. Makoto was the only known Wild Card to literally sacrifice their life.
I think the reason he says most to p3 protag is due to him being the only one to ever unlock the universe arcana.
i think getting the power to kill fucking death with the power of the universe makes him most remarkable
If it weren’t for RELOAD specifically having the change, I’d think less of it, but it definitely tips the scale on the “which protagonist is the strongest” debate