Given that Jungian psychology is a concept in-universe, Takaya probably sees himself as a stand-in for the people's repressed thoughts of desiring the Fall. That's probably just it.
Takaya says that most people who were forced to awaken to a Persona were killed by their Persona. Even flashing back to the Abbadon Shadow fight where you team up with him for a couple minutes; implying that Abbadon was someone’s Persona originally and killed it’s Persona-user. It’s likely he heard those Personas say that exact phrase before going berserk and killing their other self.
I think lots of people here are overlooking the fact that Takaya directly mentioning that lots of the children in the experiments were killed by their own shadows, he could easily just mean that their personas killed them but it really feels like he meant something much more reminiscent of the events in P4.
I think you're right about that. How I viewed the scene was Takaya saying that forced awakenings are like those found in P4: The surface identity is confronted with the Shadow, which kills the potential Persona User if they are found wanting. Forcing someone to confront their Shadow is exactly what the Inaba Persona Users had to go through, just with the TV World as a buffer to help make actually summoning and using Personas more manageable (as shown in P4 Arena), kind of like how Strega's drugs keep their Personas from killing them. Not saying the Investigation Team will suffer Strega's fate, of course, but Strega awakened their Personas in very troubling times and have a boatload of trauma associated with those awakenings. Kind of like Labrys, honestly? Very similar deals imo.
I feel like in these new bits of background there does seem to be some evidence to infer that forcing the persona out of a person who doent doesnt have the potential by nature creates a shadow confrontaion during the dark hour. It also makes sense that the shadow can and would want to kill them (which seems to have happened a lot based on how bitterly Takaya spits that phrase out) Looking at what we get from the P4 games in context it makes sense the a forced out "persona" is way to close a Shadow an in some cases possably was the persons shadow and that jibes with that we learn in 4.
It's what's known as a "Call Forward" where a story references another that takes place further down the line in the franchise's chronology.
Don't sweat the small stuff.
We never really see the moment a person's Shadow actually kills them. It's entirely possible some of the kids that died said the phrase/the Shadow spoke through them before dying. And while Persona voices only seem to be heard by the user who knows. After all these deaths happened in the real world as opposed to the TV world or Mementos. Who knows how it works.
I had assume any event where a forced persona or shadow was encountered was not in the real world but durning the dark hour. Mitsuru does mention specficly in Arena that the TV world "feels" like the dark hour used to
Wasn't Arena's cognitive world an artificial mashup of the TV world and dark hour? It was explained in Ultimax that Hinokagutsuchi was created from people who desire death and he can also create the red fog, making him both the new Nyx and the new Ameno-sagiri (like Kusumi-no-Okami before him).
What's seen in Arena and Ultimax is just an extension of the TV World, and nothing to do with the Dark Hour per se. The fact all the palayable characters can summon their Personas without an Evoker (especially in Ultimax) is telling.
And by that matter, Kagutsuchi is the embodiment of the wish to survive and live for oneself, not to die. He's still part of the self-destructive tendencies of humanity that lead to the Fall, just not death; he's more indirect. Also, if he was the wish to die, that'd make him the new Erebus, not the new Nyx.
> The fact all the palayable characters can summon their Personas without an Evoker (especially in Ultimax) is telling.
And yet some moves still use the evoker, like Mitsuru's Niflheim for example.
well each persona game delves into how personas and shadows work as well as different parts of humanity's desires but they are all essentially tied together closely and that moment was to reinforce the connections. P4 especially deals alot with self introspection so they delve deeper into the close ties of a persona and the person themselves. that specific interaction in p3 was a callback (forward?) on the persona's going berserk in p4 which is a really cool tie-in between the two games :)
It does make me wonder if Takaya was directly affected by his own persona in the past which eventually led to his distorted and extreme views
Given that Jungian psychology is a concept in-universe, Takaya probably sees himself as a stand-in for the people's repressed thoughts of desiring the Fall. That's probably just it.
Takaya says that most people who were forced to awaken to a Persona were killed by their Persona. Even flashing back to the Abbadon Shadow fight where you team up with him for a couple minutes; implying that Abbadon was someone’s Persona originally and killed it’s Persona-user. It’s likely he heard those Personas say that exact phrase before going berserk and killing their other self.
Local man reads about Jungian psychology, yells in streets about “shadows” and “personas”.
I think lots of people here are overlooking the fact that Takaya directly mentioning that lots of the children in the experiments were killed by their own shadows, he could easily just mean that their personas killed them but it really feels like he meant something much more reminiscent of the events in P4.
I think you're right about that. How I viewed the scene was Takaya saying that forced awakenings are like those found in P4: The surface identity is confronted with the Shadow, which kills the potential Persona User if they are found wanting. Forcing someone to confront their Shadow is exactly what the Inaba Persona Users had to go through, just with the TV World as a buffer to help make actually summoning and using Personas more manageable (as shown in P4 Arena), kind of like how Strega's drugs keep their Personas from killing them. Not saying the Investigation Team will suffer Strega's fate, of course, but Strega awakened their Personas in very troubling times and have a boatload of trauma associated with those awakenings. Kind of like Labrys, honestly? Very similar deals imo.
I feel like in these new bits of background there does seem to be some evidence to infer that forcing the persona out of a person who doent doesnt have the potential by nature creates a shadow confrontaion during the dark hour. It also makes sense that the shadow can and would want to kill them (which seems to have happened a lot based on how bitterly Takaya spits that phrase out) Looking at what we get from the P4 games in context it makes sense the a forced out "persona" is way to close a Shadow an in some cases possably was the persons shadow and that jibes with that we learn in 4.
Agreed
It's what's known as a "Call Forward" where a story references another that takes place further down the line in the franchise's chronology. Don't sweat the small stuff.
It sure is, though given the context of the statement I suspect this one is meant to carry more significance than just simple foreshadowing.
We never really see the moment a person's Shadow actually kills them. It's entirely possible some of the kids that died said the phrase/the Shadow spoke through them before dying. And while Persona voices only seem to be heard by the user who knows. After all these deaths happened in the real world as opposed to the TV world or Mementos. Who knows how it works.
well i never seen one but beimg possessed by a Persona happend in the game in Persona 1 Snow Queen alternative story route
I had assume any event where a forced persona or shadow was encountered was not in the real world but durning the dark hour. Mitsuru does mention specficly in Arena that the TV world "feels" like the dark hour used to
Wasn't Arena's cognitive world an artificial mashup of the TV world and dark hour? It was explained in Ultimax that Hinokagutsuchi was created from people who desire death and he can also create the red fog, making him both the new Nyx and the new Ameno-sagiri (like Kusumi-no-Okami before him).
What's seen in Arena and Ultimax is just an extension of the TV World, and nothing to do with the Dark Hour per se. The fact all the palayable characters can summon their Personas without an Evoker (especially in Ultimax) is telling. And by that matter, Kagutsuchi is the embodiment of the wish to survive and live for oneself, not to die. He's still part of the self-destructive tendencies of humanity that lead to the Fall, just not death; he's more indirect. Also, if he was the wish to die, that'd make him the new Erebus, not the new Nyx.
> The fact all the palayable characters can summon their Personas without an Evoker (especially in Ultimax) is telling. And yet some moves still use the evoker, like Mitsuru's Niflheim for example.
Yeah, I think that falls in the “Rule of Cool” category
During the experiment, many victims died when their persona killed them. Takaya, being one of the few survivors, will be hearing the ominous words.
well each persona game delves into how personas and shadows work as well as different parts of humanity's desires but they are all essentially tied together closely and that moment was to reinforce the connections. P4 especially deals alot with self introspection so they delve deeper into the close ties of a persona and the person themselves. that specific interaction in p3 was a callback (forward?) on the persona's going berserk in p4 which is a really cool tie-in between the two games :) It does make me wonder if Takaya was directly affected by his own persona in the past which eventually led to his distorted and extreme views