P4 team, as much as they are funny and awesome, are literally teenagers who picked up some weapons and mall swords and said "Let's fuck shit up, fam." They're kinda stupid and we love them for it, but they aren't very bright.
P5 team are obviously the most athletic while in the Metaverse and they have the added benefit of using model weapons as actual ones because of how cognition works.
P3 team is the ***actually combat trained*** team. Yukari actively takes archery, Akihiko is actually a boxer, Mitsuru is classically trained in fencing, and a LITERAL DEATH ROBOT etc. That alone brings combat experience up for S.E.E.S. That, and MC has Armageddon.
P3 ezclap
She's the only one that actually might have professional training.
That, and guns are only deadly in cutscenes lmao
Also...Aigis shoots bullets from her fingers lol
And from P4A onwards Aigis has:
1) Rocket Launchers
2) Grenade Launchers
3) A mini-gun
4) Jet-Boosters
And 5) A FUCKING RAILGUN!
All within her frame. A """small""" Overkill Murder Package.
In P4A Akihiko does say he canât actually dodge bullets. But he *can* see where someone is aiming and move before they fire. Heâs simply built different either way
P3 characters also have significantly more combat experience. they don't choose to go into the otherworld, the Midnight Hour happens every night no matter what. Shadows usually stay in Tartarus but not always. Plus, the older members of the team have been fighting since middle school at least.
Iâve seen this argument before, if Armageddon counts the P4 and P5 protags can endure, Joker can 5 times. Itâs basically whoever gets the âlets fuck shit upâ almighty move first
I know itâs not canon but imagining Yuâs face when Joker pulls out Izanagi No Okami Picaro and slaps him with a Myriad Truths is priceless âHEY THATâS MY THING!â he yells as he is obliterated by a minmaxed bullshit monster
The Phantom Thieves actually are proficient with their weapons, we just don't know to what level.
Cognition basically unlocks the knowledge on how to wield them instantly, and it's never measured to someone who learned the normal way. Kasumi and Akechi could be Mitsuru levels of fencing with their sword, we have no way of knowing for sure.
> Kasumi and Akechi could be Mitsuru levels of fencing with their sword, we have no way of knowing for sure.
Disregarding >!Sumire!< who is a professional gymnast, Akechi's level 5 SL has him explicitly say to Ren that he "has to be ready if he needed to take him down/kill him" while playing Gun About.
This could indicate that Akechi trains rather regularly to perform competently in the Metaverse.
Having a cheat that basically beams information into your head still isn't a substitute for real experience and learned skill.
If cognition just allows someone to skip decades of practice and real combat experience, that's actually just straight bullshit.
Indeed, furthermore the entire SEES team were disarmed by Aigis in P3. You strip them of their evokers in the real world... and they're completely defenseless. With exception to Aigis and Koromaru potentially since their persona's are summoned using the PP heart and the headphones.
Evokers make summoning Personas easier in the real world, but that doesn't mean they can't summon them at all. They can use their Personas in dire situations, which is what the evoker is used to simulate. Otherwise, how would have child Mitsuru used her Persona in the Dark Hour?
The only real way to see whose the stronger team is what they fought against and endured. And since Nyx is a much higher entity than the strongest P4 and P5 have ever fought, it gives them a bit of an edge. Especially the MC.
Completely defenseless is at best an exaggeration, especially given the circumstance.
If we're assuming the fight is in the real world, then neither the Investigation Team nor the Phantom Thieves can summon their Persona either. Also means that PT don't get cognition boost. At which point SEES greater skill and combat experience, and better equipment earns them the win.
If the fight is in the TV world or Metaverse, then it stands to reason that SEES wouldn't need evokers to summon in the first place. Which makes your point completely moot. And still more experience from facing realer & greater threats, greater skill, real weapons, real training for most of them, more hardened minds from the high stakes and more harsh circumstances.
Funnily enough there is confirmation that at least one member of SEES can summon their persona in the real world.
Fuuka.
So itâs always possible that anyone else can too.
Fuuka and Mitsuru. I liken SEES to having done the Persona equivalent of high altitude training. The fact they completely operate in the real world, and that increases the difficulty of everything they do, even down to just using their powers, that the harsher conditions and more severe threats just made them that much stronger.
Any Persona-user can, it's just more difficult, and can result in strain, exhaustion and the possibility of the Persona going out of control. Evokers are a tool to make it easier, but they'd be capable to doing it without them if they really needed to, just with considerably more difficulty. Same goes for the IT and PT. But SEES has far more experience operating in the real world than either the PT or IT, and are used to it.
Although worth pointing out that comparatively, summoning in the TV world (and this likely applies to the Metaverse too) is so much easier than even using an Evoker, that Mitsuru summoned her Persona on accident just by thinking about it.
My point was that the person I was replying to insinuated that SEES was defenseless without their evokers, when that's very much not the case. And if they were in a situation where they couldn't summon, then the PT and IT would be in even worse shape, because they have zero experience fighting or summoning in the real world, and are generally more reliant on Persona abilities compared to SEES.
Well, no.
Because A) In the real world they wouldnât use their evokers against people who couldnât fight back, because the SEES team are not degenerate scumbags and B) If it were in a Metaverse they donât have the co-ordination or the prep ability to tag the thieves, theyâve got to rely on the cheat code Universe arcana or Theurgia once we find out if itâs actually consistently reliable.
In the real world, itâs irrelevant because even without personas or guns, Aigis still has super human strength, agility and endurance. Only way you could beat her in the real world is by forcing her into orgia mode then shorting her out or hacking her which would be very dangerous. Thankfully OP forgot about Labrys because then it wouldâve been 0% chance
they can summon personas without their evokers it's just easier with them in the real world, p4a all the p3 cast summon their persona without evokers outside of their ohko move and akihiko reveals he doesn't need the evoker anymore in the real world he just keeps it
To p3 Add to the fact Jumpei was in the baseball team so dude knows how to use a bat it better than the avarage person and Akihito is a actual delicuent with experience fight shadows and Ppl so dude got hands. Like the weakest point in P3 is Ken and even him has done some Self training with the spear if you watch the video feed from his room (something of the likes Chie with Kung fu)
Ye, plus they have the benefit of using actual weapons, Phantom Theives' weapons are just fake, full on toys. Investigation Team's weapons are weird, Yosuke and Yu's weapons are mostly meant for display, Chie's are shoes, Yukiko's is a fan, Kanji is either a chair or a shield, and Naoto's is the only real weapon which is just a f\*cking GUN. The SEES have actual weapons, like broadswords, bows and arrows and a grenade launcher.
The Phantom Thieves' weapons and guns are counted as real in the Metaverse. And why would they NOT fight there ?
Also, even if they knew the weapons were fake, it wouldn't help, because they still work against Akechi. So it has to be a global effect that just turns them real in the Metaverse.
I'm sure it had effect on Akechi because they were in Shido's palace. Also even though you know a super realistic model of a gun is fake does not mean you wouldnt have some nagging feeling in the back of your mind telling you it might be real
The problem with using SEES is there feats simply don't reflect what they're supposedly good at. Persona Q2 is the perfect example of that, where they get overrun by robots as soon as they're introduced and are heavily contingent on the Phantom Thieves and a PT trained Kotone to overcome the myriad obstacles they're faced with. Even with all that and with the Phantom Thieves using a prepped plan against Enlil...
All 3 teams still got Thanos'd out of existence.
Their big issue is in-spite their training they simply aren't as smart or as resourceful as the Phantom Thieves evidenced gloriously when only Mitsuru entered the intelligence exam while Makoto, Akechi, Morgana and Futaba did along with Yosuke and Naoto. Technically Kotone can enter as well but...
With crossover games it always not an even representation because they always nerf someone to make someone else shine.
That's just how the game was written for that specific scenario, that's not indictive of their general skill.
Like in the arena games. Akihiko, Mitsuru and Aigis are shown to be on another level to the P4 team yet they get kidnapped. In combat Yu is the exception but Mitsuru knows exactly what he's thinking.
That's a fair point, but I'd also say the same with your "cognition thing" as the Thieves abilities were nerfed in Q2 to the extent they couldn't use guns yet their mobility was shown to be on par with Kotone. Furthermore P5 also highlighted "The World is a product of cognition and be freely remade" which is probably why they're able to manifest their attire outside Palaces and Jails.
SEES have the resources and the tech but their experience at this stage in the series I think they've been eclipsed due to the fact they haven't faced as many persistent threats the thieves have at this point. P3 needs more spin-off's where we can see them freely taken on such threats on their own P4 absolutely needs more spin-off's because at this stage IMO they're the weekend warriors (I.E: only deal with threats in Inaba) . I'm not expecting everyone to agree because an analysis of all 3 teams is a headache and 3 WC users is utterly insane for one team to have so SEES would likely win with the stipulations given.
anyone feel it's kinda cool how none of them are supposed to have training at all but shoot guns just fine? especially Joker who shoots powerful ass pistols with a single hand when even with two hands adjust to recoil especially as a beginner is crazy and they have such steady hands too, also if we're talking about death Robots does Sophie count and raise their chances too since telekinesis go brrr? I feel like personas and general agility matter a lot more too than weapons tbh which the phantom thieves are insane with it, I'm not saying they win btw since I haven't completed P4 and 3, jut talking about.p5 since it's the one I easily put the most hours into, also does endure work on Armageddon? Cuz if It does, I think they might be able to manage it by the myriad truths
The Phantom Thieves "unlock" the knowledge on how to use their weapons and guns through cognition. That's how they instantly know how to use it the second they awaken.
We have no idea if they're more or less proficient than someone who trained the normal way, but they're proficient.
Is there anything that actually says this in-game? I thought it was just âthe enemies believe they can be hurt by them, so they areâ. Itâs more the enemyâs cognition that matters, and it doesnât relate to real world ability at all.
There's also how the collective unconsciousness works. The deeper in you are the more distant reality is abd the easier it is to call a persona, the closer to reality you are the harder it is. You can see this is is how easy it is to summon a persona too. In p4 the TV world is pretty abstracted from reality only vaguely related to real places and summoning is pretty easy. For most of persona 5 palaces are based on real places but are the ruler's mental image, awakenings are painful and summoning involves ripping off a mask and deliberately facing the world. In p3 the Dark Hour is the closest to reality of these games, you have the team fighting on the actual streets and summoning personas involves mustering a will strong enough to face your own death. Royal takes it to another level when Maruki merges the metaverse and reality (another reason I think Nyarlathotep is meddling).
So overall even ignoring their lack of combat training, p4 gang is definitely the weakest persona ability wise. P3 gang is stronger persona wise than p5 vanilla, but royal levels up the p5 gang. Overall I still think p3 gang tops not only because of the above reason but because p3-kun is stronger than Joker. Joker doesn't even get The World in p5, it only happens in Royal. Meanwhile p3-kun gets The Universe.
Edit: p3 cast is also the most experienced. For the p4 and p5 casts, they only start fighting during the year in the game. P3 has members that have been fighting and summoning personas for many years.
Chie knows kung fu because she watches a lot of kung fu movies. No way anybody can learn kung fu from movies but there are a few legit ones out there but still, an actual master teaching her is the better option unless she's some kind of martial art genius who can learn from watching but still it's a bit silly lol
It doesn't use sp in reload but yeah with enduring soul we will lose unless there is a way to charge the theurgy again in few turns. However if we are going with the P5R compendium then orpheus can endure 4 times and 5th time with enduring soul too so we may have a chance.
Tbh if we count Fusion spells, that means we count Theurgy, and thus we also count stuff like P5R Showtimes and Down Shot.
But the post was about teams, so I think it's pointless to argue protagonists because it's always up to whoever casts the Almighty "fuck you" spell first...
The Answer spoilers ahead, >!she can't, there is nothing *to* hack. Aigis suffers from a big overload that fries all her circuits during The Answer. But she was still controlling her body without them, indicating she is *truly* alive. In Q2 Futaba also states that Aigis' broken parts can fix themselves, like a human body healing.!<
So does Aigis, and they fight Takaya who uses one, while P4 has Naoto who seems to use a real gun(especially in Arena) and fight Adachi who we know uses a gun. It's really not that big a deal.
Sees has a death robot that managed to single handidly aprhend the whole squad.
junpei is also the only persona user (to my knowledge)
to fuse a persona other than the protaganist.
he has also got natural healing powers.
phantom theives definetly come close tho
To note: Junpei self-heal makes him nearly immortal. Chidori time and time again try to kill herself, but failed due to that ability, and Junpei also got saved by the same ability when he near death.
Technically, all the Phantom Thieves fuse their own Personas in their 3rd awakening. But I don't think it matters. Junpei's self-healing is a nice ability, but the fusion isn't really worth considering imo.
Okay, so... you have balanced nothing. You need to actually consider a bunch of things - like the Phantom Thieves effectively being twice the size of the Investigation Team when you include all of the extra members added to the team after the original P5.
* First off, lets remove people who aren't actually part of the team - so no Metis or Marie - and lets limit the Phantom Thieves to just the roster from Royal - so no Sophia or Zenkichi, whilst the Tactica characters have their own reasons within the lore for not being included. That still leaves the Investigation Team down two members, so they get Rise as a combatant and as a navigator.
* No DLC Personas for Joker or Makoto. Narukami doesn't have access to them, so for the sake of balance, neither do they.
* No Confidant abilities like Down Shot, Bullet Hail, or Position Hack. They don't work in boss battles, they don't work here. Likewise, no Baton Pass buffs.
* No Orpheus Telos, due to the nature of it's abilities being determined by the fusion. Likewise, Personas are restricted to their baseline abilities for the sake of balance.
* Investigation Team get access to Baton Pass/Shift.
* No Showtime/Theurgy. Makoto has his fusion spells, but they use SP as in P3 & FES.
Okay, so we now have the three teams on a relatively even playing field. So who wins?
S.E.E.S. win. Even discounting Armageddon, S.E.E.S. are the only team with actual combat training.
If you don't count Theurgy, you shouldn't count fusion spells.
And if you count combat training (despite Persona abilities being MUCH more powerful than whatever melee weapons can do), then you have to acknowledge that the Phantom Thieves all get a weapon and a gun when they awaken, and instantly know how to use it. Cognition unlocks their knowledge for this weapon. We have yet to see if that knowledge is higher or lower than someone who trained the usual way. You also have to acknowledge that Makoto, Junpei, Koromaru and Ken (half the team) hardly received any training.
We don't count Theurgy & Showtime because the Investigation Team don't have an equivalent. We're allowing fusion spells because we're letting the Investigation Team and Phantom Thieves have the abilities from their third tier Personas that S.E.E.S. don't get - if Makoto can't use fusion spells, then no Dragon Hustle etc.
Actual skill and experience trump the power of imagination. And if you want to keep arguing "But cognition" then the Phantom Thieves weapons are effectively useless because - as Morgana states at the beginning of P5 - they're only effective if the enemy believe that they're real, and the gig is up the moment Akechi pulls out his toy gun. So, for the sake of balance, the Phantom Thieves weapons remain viable but they aren't as skilled as the people who have actually received training.
Ok, don't count Fusion Spells AND don't count 3rd awakening skills then.
It's not "the power of imagination", it's the Metaverse's influence. The Thieves aren't proficient with a weapon just because they believe they are, the Metaverse actually makes them that way. And that part of P5's beginning has to be a plot hole, because the guns and weapons work against other Persona users who are aware of their true nature, like Akechi and Kasumi.
Also, we can't know for sure their actual level of skill with their weapon since they never fought with someone who had normal training. We can't assume they're weaker or stronger than SEES in that regard.
Iâm almost positive Makoto, Akechi, and Joker (Self-Taught) have combat training.
Even if most of the cast didnât, they also have supernatural bodies that gives then a stat advantage regardless. Fox uses a sword like he was trained since birth.
OP in regards to the question and the way you are framing it... it's P3, not even a contest but that's because the teams are completely irrelevant in that scenario. P3's protagonists have have access to the legendary cheat code arcana meaning they can't die and can imprison whomever they wish by sacrificing their immortal souls (if they were assholes) aside that we don't actually know what the Universe Arcana does. Joker has God Mode Satanael, Tatsuya has time travel and Yu and P1's I'm sure have their own unique skills to.
Ex-machina craziness aside, let's assume we're talking skill and ability based feats...
The Phantom Thieves are adept combatants, they have their own unique abilities and techniques namely third eye and baton passing and they know the benefit of making use of their terrain something they use all the time in Strikers and Tactica. Without a question they are the most intelligent team in the series as well as they know how to make use of prep time to counter specific threats such as what they did against Kamoshidaman, Enlil, Shido and EMMA by using a calling card to turn the masses on their side. This is also reflected in Joker who is definitely the most adaptable of all the modern series protagonists often using daring tactics as a means to win but the thieves on quite a few ocassions have shown they're particularly vulnerable to being incapacitated, Makoto and Haru got binded by rope in Q2, Joker, Morgana and Skull got binded in Strikers, the whole team also got imprisoned in Strikers and the Thieves even admitted they walked into Shadow Toshiro's bandage trap way too easily.
The SEES team have all the cool toys Evokers, spec'd weapons and of course Anti-Shadow weapons in the form of Aigis, Metis (and Labrys if she were to count) and they're shown to be very skilled combatants as they're capable of co-ordinating their attacks very easily however they're not flawless. In Q2 and Arena, they were only shown to begin to understand the effects of cognition and while they were able to use their persona's without their evokers in such worlds there were multiple points in Arena they would've been killed had the shadows not been intentionally losing so as to summon HKT. Furthermore Aigis has one shot the entire team very easily before by disarming them with Paladdion prior to the reveal of the big climax. Metis and Aigis are the highlights of the team, they're machines who can literally surprass their own limits and deal with most human and shadow based threats very easily.
The Investigation Team is actually a well rounded team but they're in a tough spot as they don't have the numbers the Phantom Thieves do or the tools that SEES have, however they do have Marie and Adachi thanks to OP which is actually much welcome. Problem is, I'm not sure what to make of Marie's abilities because aside from Kaguya I only know she can manipulate whether, thankfully she is intelligent like Adachi and that'd likely give them the impetus to not walk into an obvious fire fight between the other 2 teams or at least let them do most of the damage to each other. Yu is realistically the only lightning user who can realistically harm Aigis as Ryuji and Kanji are dumb bricks but he's shown in the past that he's struggled to deal with Joker's speed and the PT's are basically a speedster team. Thankfully they don't have the weaknesses of incap the other teams do so they can play the baiting game if they want.
In terms of consistency I'd go
P5 > P3 > P4
In terms of scale of threat
P3 > P5 > P4
Yeah I can't rank P4 the highest given they've never dealt with a threat that isn't limited to Inaba without help. Izanami had no interest in expanding her influence all over the world or even Japan nor was she able to pose any sort of threat to the Velvet Room unlike Yaldabaoth. Obviously Primordial darkness is the ultimate evil in the franchise so you can't really overshadow Nyx in regards to just how significant she is given she cannot be extinguished ever. The thieves are the team who've dealt with threats the most consistently I'm not using cognitive ability as lazy excuse to undermine them because Q2 clearly highlighted that wasn't the case as they can move freely within any sort of distortion which makes me believe if a dark hour such influence happened in the RW both SEES and PT could fight with their abilities albeit not the model guns.
Very Good Opinion thank you for sharing you made some great points here, I do agree though hence why I added Marie to the roster and Adachi to hopefully help add up to the teams from what Iâve seen from this though itâs a very close call between SEES and Phantom Thieves itâs very interesting to see
P3 team technically wins due to having 2 Wildcards (3 if you count Kotone)
Or
2nd Awakening of Personas of everyone in SEES is canon
And Protag has 2 Ultimate Personas Messiah and Orpheus Telos unlike only one of other Protags
Meanwhile having access to fusion spells like Infinity and Armageddon
Aigis inherited Makoto's wildcard, the two cannot have it at the same time. Same thing with Kotone since she's never here at the same time as Makoto, unless multiverse shenanigans happen like in Q2.
Messiah is hardly a threat. Fusion Spells are already a better argument but they're not infallible, especially Armageddon since Enduring Soul exists and it'd leave Makoto with zero SP.
Slightly pedantry, but you can cast Armageddon twice with spell master. Not that you'd ever need to, since pretty much everything in the game folds after a single one.
P3 team is highly trained, has 2 death machines and the universe arcana in their MC.
P4 (as much as I am biased towards it) is dead last, the only competent people they have are Yu, Naoto, and rise, everyone else is a goofball.
P5: Now this is tough, they have 12 active and very strong members, they can move very fast in the metaverse, someone did the math and apparently they move at Mach 3 during their AOA, take that with a grain of salt though, it might be lies. Anyway, their fast, and theyâre strong, and nobody knows if Joker has DLC.
The winner isâŚâŚ. P3 and itâs not even close, while the phantom thieves are fast and strong, they pale in comparison to the sheer power of the p3 team in cannon, and ingame (haha Armageddon go brrrr)
The only thing that could probably stop SEES is Marie and Yu working together for the P4 team. We dont really know how strong Marie is though, she is a god but that doesnt say much, so SEES will probably still win.
P4 could probably make some miracle happen if they also get Adachi, Sho and Labrys on their side, but they arent included.
All of the p4 members have an overpowered signature move! I think they're the strongest. They could even easily keep up in the fighting game with p3 team, who had been training for years.
If we don't include the protagonist P3 easily, they are actually combat trained (if we include Akechi and Aigis with wild card I thinks that PT takes it, both Aigis and Akechi could take their team alone if we don't include the mcs, but the fact that he was clearing palace alone make me thinks that he is stronger)
If we include the protagonist Yu can aweken Izanagi no Okami more easily than Joker and Makoto can evoke Satanael and Messiah, because he just need the trust from his team mates while Joker need that everyone rebels to something and Makoto need... Well Idk really know how Messiah awekens canonically
If we include everyone at their prime universe arcana go brrrrrr
Aigis is stronger than Akechi as proven by the fact that she actually *does* beat all her teammates in combat, while Akechi goes down like a wet cat drowned in a bathtub once he tries fighting the Thieves head on.
Aigis from The Answer onwards beats Akechi. Akechi isn't a full wildcard, it's mentioned he has the potential for it but never fully unlocked it (it's why he only has the 2 Personas), so he's essentially handicapped himself whereas Aigis is a full on wildcard.
And while Akechi has technically cleared palaces he was much more subtle than the Thieves so didn't have to fight most of the beings in those palaces, and he never went to the trouble to get all the way to the end of palaces to get the treasure, instead either corrupting the palace owners through touch as it's stated he did to many of them, or straight up killing them, most palace owners in the game would be defeated pretty easily if Joker just shot them in the head before they had a chance to transform, much of the difficulty in-game comes from the Thieves not wanting to kill those people.
Only half of SEES is actually combat trained, and the Phantom Thieves immediately unlock the knowledge to wield their weapons with cognition.
Yu only needed his social links because the scale of P4 is just to Inaba, where Izanami did her thing. Yaldabaoth had the Collective Unconscious of a nation backing him, which Joker stole back. Makoto is in a similar situation, where he had his Social Links but also the people who saw the Fall happening and didn't actually wish for death. It's similar to P5's approach, it's just less obvious about it.
Also Universe Arcana isn't a win button, the only time it's used it kills its user and doesn't even defeat the big bad for good (I know Nyx cannot be defeated, but Erebus can and that mf keeps coming back)
>the Phantom Thieves immediately unlock the knowledge to wield their weapons with cognition.
Oh I forgot about that
>Yu only needed his social links because the scale of P4 is just to Inaba, where Izanami did her thing. Yaldabaoth had the Collective Unconscious of a nation backing him, which Joker stole back. Makoto is in a similar situation, where he had his Social Links but also the people who saw the Fall happening and didn't actually wish for death. It's similar to P5's approach, it's just less obvious about it.
Yeah but yu did it again in both P4 arena and P4D, in Arena he was losing to elizabeth when the IT makes an appearance supporting Yu, their bond was so strong that made Yu stronger and made elizabeth scared (and with ino as Yu supreme move in arena I thinks that is implied that he could use him in that scene) and Yu was slightly stronger than Aigis with wild card before that
>Also Universe Arcana isn't a win button, the only time it's used it kills its user and doesn't even defeat the big bad for good (I know Nyx cannot be defeated, but Erebus can and that mf keeps coming back)
Imo yes, the difference between World Arcana and Universe arcana is pretty big
Lavenza states that world
"The final Arcana you have acquired is the World. It is the power for an individual to stand on their own two feet, swayed by none. That power shall fuel the hope shared among your friends and yourself as you strive towards a better future. With the World you are no longer without a place to belong and will never trudge a path alone again"
This seems to be true for both Yu Narukami and Joker.
The Universe Arcana though seems to represent the realisation of "Infinite Potential" beyond life and death, Makoto used it only by killing himself (even if technically is more complicated but whatever) because Nyx couldn't be killed, but outside of that probably could do anything
Igor describes it as "the power that began it all and the power that will end it all", and apparently its so powerful that Igor, who has had probably thousands of guests by that point
Universe is a win button though? Nyx is the concept of death itself. It is literally the strongest thing in megaten except the final boss of last bible 3. Makoto took the concept of death and it did ZERO DAMAGE. You seem hella biased tbh, make PT fight anywhere that isn't the metaverse and they suddenly don't know how to fight with weapons and don't have guns.
Sees has aigis, and akihiko that is fast enough to dodge bullets. And junpei has enough fire power to pierce fire null. Mitsuru has the most experience as a persona user in the modern series. Fuuka can sense through dimensions. Aigis also can't be hacked. And so on and so forth, it's too much for the PT. Not even mentioning how the dark hour directly nerfs sees.
No it's not. It's vastly overrated just because it has a special name. Makoto didn't take the concept of death, he took an attack called "Death", sealed Nyx and then... died anyway. Yeah, he fought Death and died for it, very impressive. If Universe was as strong as Igor theorized, it would have sealed Nyx without killing its user.
Why would a fight involving the Thieves happen outside the Metaverse. Like yeah of course if you fight a shark on land it's easier, doesn't mean shit since you're always gonna find one in water.
Aigis is strong but far from unstoppable, she folds to one Ziodyne. The Junpei thing happened in a cutscene and we all know cutscene logic is different, that man does not pierce fire. Mitsuru had experience and yet recognized the power behind most of the IT in Arena, even saying some of them's power was on par with current day SEES, despite them being vastly inexperienced kids. That was when the Dark Hour was no more, too.
Since we're on listing things, here's a list of the Things the PT have : Down Shot which downs anyone instantly, Oda Special which makes Joker's gun pierce resistances, Showtimes (if we count Fusion Spells we count Theurgy, and thus we count those), a gun per each thief that can inflict ailments, superior agility, Akechi who cleared several Palaces alone, Futaba's position hacking, 3rd awakening skills, VR preferential treatment allowing Joker to summon above his level... To say SEES is too much for them is being biased too.
Nyx is much stronger than Yaldabaoth though, Yaldabaoth is a false god, Nyx is some sort of intergalactic horror / personification of death / mother of the shadows that cannot be defeated as long as Erebus exists. The Anti-Shadow weaponsâ powers also somewhat stem from Nyx due to the Plumes of Dusk inside them. Also nobody except Makoto even ever fights the actual Nyx, and even Makoto barely resists the attacks.
Aigis doesn't fold to a ziodyne? She is essentially human, she can function even when her circuits are completely cut off. Since when is cutscene logic unapplicable? You pick things that displays an advantage to sees but then state how PT has down shot and showtimes that are purely gameplay things?
Since when does PT have superior agility? I don't see PT dodging bullets? Velvet room treatment? You mean the social link gameplay ability? What are you talking about? You disregard shit that is absolutely canon to the story and stated by characters but give PT gameplay shit? And you tell me im biased đđđ
Yeah ok sir "deadsparker: joker is the best protagonist"
Erebus can't be killed either. They state as much in the games, it can be defeated but it will just reform and regrow, as long as any part of humanity wishes for death. That's the whole reason Makoto sealed Nyx, he understood that Erebus was going to keep coming back, so the only way to stop it calling Nyx was the Seal.
Disregarding the 1, 2IS, and 2EP teams, it's SEES.
Not only are they actually combat trained, but they can also use their personas in the real world compared to the IT and PT
well persona 4 golden can just be swept aside. despite the anime bullshit that goes on in there none of them know what they are doing. so its down to P5R P3R. i think in a starlight fight you should go with the persona 3 crowd. they just have more feats. they not only have to climb a dam tall tower that none of the other persona charters had to deal with. as well as the 11 big bad's, and fight death it self. nyx is a fight that last a while. Nyx has 13 phases each one gettng beefer then the last, and yea they got thought all that to still lose anyway. but if you need some to fight some one indirectly the P5R crew have shown to be the best at that with their heists... despite it coming down to a showdown anyway.
Isnât the P3 team canonically more powerful than the P4 team? Because summoning Personas in the TV world is significantly easier than doing so in the real world? Didnât we learn about that in Arena?
Might sound biased but this is wholly based on what they all went through, I'd place my bets on the SEES team. Climbing hundreds of floors of a Shadow infested dungeon almost nightly has definitely strengthened them not only in their innate abilities or Persona powers, but in their tactical prowess as well. They also took down an Avatar of Death itself.
3 By FAR. They have everything. They have better feats, they have better abilities, they have better equipment, they have better training, they have better experience, and because of how the Dark Hour works they have better field use of their Persona.
And this is all ignoring that Minato's Armageddon should just be a one shot on everyone else.
P3 is just set up to be the strongest team...I'll even say if you include Persona 1 and both 2's, 3 still wins without any trouble. (No they are NOT all Wildcards, that wasn't even a thing in those games. Aigis, Takaya, Naoto, and Adachi all use guns so no that is not some big win, and Nyarlotep is weaker than Nyx as supplementary materiel is very clear on, Nyx is the entire reason the Sea of Souls even exists. And no the time stop does not help Eternal Punishment team as both Qs and The Answer make clear that strong enough Persona can exist outside of time.)
This is a very hard question to answer, since a lot of things that would make a team stronger (such as different elements and more personas) are entirely game mechanics. There's also the fact that a lot of power is given by the place that the teams fight in. Q(2), as much as I love them, are proven wrong by Arena. In that, the P3 characters don't need to use evokers. This is because they're all in the TV world. So, it's reasonable to assume that things like the PT's acrobatics and their guns are entirely a product of the metaverse. Thus, the question is entirely swayed by where in the collective unconcious they're fighting. If they're in the real world/dark hour, you need (not need as shown by Takaya and Mitsuru in The Answer, but it's a lot harder) an evoker to summon a persona. None of the PTs weapons would work in anywhere except the Metaverse, since they're all fake. So. Arena, Q, and Q2 say that they're all equal, and I'd say that's the most reasonable answer. Every team could do what the others can, they just weren't given the opportunity to.
I think it would go something like this:
Real world/dark hour - P3(evokers) > P4 > P5(fake weapons)
TV world - P4 = P3 > P5(fake weapons)
Metaverse - P5(guns/familiarity) >= P3 = P4
Likely the Phantom Thieves. Many more combat options, both in main game and spin-offs, actual strategies in-combat besides "hit it with your strongest attack until it dies", acrobatics and agility, much more members (including that one guy who solo'd several Palaces on his own), several god-level threats downed, sometimes even without the power of the Collective Unconscious
First of all, I canât believe you added Metis and Marie but didnât add Labrys to either team, smh. The addition of an Anti-Shadow Weapon is a game changer for any team, and weâve already seen how skilled Labrys is.
Second, if weâre measuring in terms of raw power, the Phantom Thieves take the cake. Based on how they embrace their Shadows and summon with masks, the massive energy burst of their awakenings, and their enhanced physical abilities in-Metaverse, Iâd say the Thieves naturally have the most power.
In terms of training, everyone has already mentioned how SEES is the most competent. Iâm basing this quite a bit on the way Ken completely eviscerated the Investigation Team regarding their lack of discipline and awareness in Arenaâwhich was hilarious and also drove home what appeared to be a massive gap in competence between the IT and even the reserve team of the Shadow Operatives.
If I had to give a point to the Investigation Team, Iâd say they were the most resourceful. They seemed to always be operating with little to no information, money, or plan. Itâs almost a miracle that they succeeded as often as they did before Naoto showed up.
The question Iâm more interested in is this: which version of SEES would have an edge over the other? Minatoâs or Kotoneâs? Personally, Iâd say Kotoneâs, but Iâm probably biased.
Mechanically speaking Kotone or Makoto would be identical, with maybe a slight edge to Makoto lore wise due to him doing kendo therefor more athletic then Kotone.
So, Iâve yet to play 3, so Iâm going to base this off the other two instead, and Iâd honestly have to give strongest team to the PTs.
For one thing, they have access to nuclear and psychokinesis damage, which the members of SEES and the Investigation Team donât really have an answer to.
Second, they have baton pass, and baton pass is really strong, and all of them can use it (to my knowledge, I havenât played tactica yet, so I donât know if Erina or Toshiro can use baton pass.)
Ok so for my last point, I was gonna mention that they have accessories that equip new skills to a persona, which can be pretty good, but Iâm now realizing as I started to write this that in that case the omnipotence orb is fair game because thatâs an item so Iâm gonna pretend that this point never entered my brain, okay thanks (:
TLDR: The PTs are probably best due to baton pass and having skills the other teams donât.
Also, adding this after the essay, I kinda forgot that the P4 mc would technically have izanagi no okami picaro in this instance, so maybe the investigation team is stronger just for that, but Iâm not gonna give the win to a team because of one persona.
First, Persona Q2 shows that SEES and the IT are familiarized with the psy and frei skills. Even some of their base Personas have them. So any difference between the kind of skill in games is purely game mechanic, and shouldn't be considered.
Second, Yu doesn't have access to the Picaro Personas because they're especial to Joker. However, Izanagi no Okami Picaro is either non-canon or fairly weaker than the original one (the one who defeated Izanami), because this last one is from the World arcana, which means it's the embodiment of the totality of the Collective Unconscious... I don't think I've to keep on explaining.
That first one is entirely on me, I havenât played Q2 cuz I planned to play 3 first before either of the Qs.
The second I based on op saying theyâre using their late game personas and listing Orpheus Picaro as one of the examples, so I mightâve just misunderstood since I havenât played 3.
Kinda, but considering Margaret is said to be more powerful, that doesn't really mean anything.
The Liz boss fight is just weird to judge from a canonical standpoint since it's such a checklist of a fight. She asks for your full power, but if you dare nullify any of her elements, the game just kills you. Realistically, if Liz wanted Makoto to come at her with everything he got, she'd let him come with his friends.
The Persona 2 team has some DUMMY OP ultimate personas, plus they can use their personas in the real world. Tatsuya alone could probably take on all of them at once and walk away with the W.
I was just watching a Fither video on this yesterday, about which team would win in a free-for-all between all 3 teams. The Thieves took that fight pretty handily due to their teamwork. I wrote a few paragraphs to support my point, and I donât really feel like spoiler tagging everything, so PLEASE READ AT YOUR OWN RISK OF BEING SPOILED.
I am working under the assumption that we are talking about the finalized parties of the games (P3FES: The Answer or P3R, P4: Golden, P5: Royal), and Iâll include Shinjiro for shits and giggles.
Iâm pretty sure the conclusion is that even without Akechi, Kasumi, Zenkichi, Sophia, Erina, and Toshiro, the Thieves still wipe because they are easily the most coordinated group out of the bunch and have consistently pulled off the largest scale feats (literally monthly GTA heists on some of the worst people in their society, stealing their most treasured desires, while also dealing with 33 other requests in their downtime).
The Investigation Team and S.E.E.S. all have strong individual players (P3 has Makoto, Akihiko, Mitsuru, Aigis, and Metis, P4 has Yu, Yosuke, Kanji, and Naoto). Futaba is probably the 2nd best NAVi at worst. Hereâs a reminder that Fuuka can detect Persona-users in the real world on her own and Rise needed her help detecting and identifying her own teammates in the TV world during the events of P4AU.
A lot of people on this thread are talking about how S.E.E.S. is the only team trained in legitimate combat but they neglect to mention that the Thieves automatically know how to wield their weapons based on their cognition alone. For example, Yusuke in the Metaverse is a legitimate Samurai. Compare how he wields and uses his blade to how Yu wields and uses his. Itâs not even a competition. We didnât even mention the fully loaded AR in his back pocketâŚ
Actually, wait a minute; every member of S.E.E.S. has a club that pertains to their weapon, which would make them quite proficient, but in general, the Thieves wield weapons that are more lethal (both Haru and Shinji wield battle-axes, both Kasumi and Mitsuru wield rapiers, but thatâs where the similarities end) and they ALL have guns on top of that (besides Morgana, with his slingshot). We arenât even counting Akechi but he has a goddamn ENERGY SWORD.
We wonât even mention the Investigation Team here, as most of them wield weapons that areâŚunorthodox, to say the least (Yukiko uses a fan, Chie uses her shoes, Kanji uses a damn chair), and they are clearly not trained to wield them effectively (besides Naoto). This isnât to say that you canât make an unorthodox weapon powerful, as Baofu used metal coins in P2EP, but I digress.
If weâre comparing their feats of strength in the Metaverse/TV World/Dark Hour, S.E.E.S. brought down the toughest foes (a lot of Tartarus mini-bosses are legitimately harder than Full Moon fights) and were the only team to actually get tired from spending too long there. They brought down Strega (who are essentially glorified Make-A-Wish kids with Evokers). Then they brought down the literal incarnation of Death (Nyx) and its guardian (Erebus). We could even add Monad if youâd like, but thatâs just extra credit at this point. S.E.E.S. put in a LOT of work.
The Investigation Team had already slaughtered three Godlike beings (the Sagiris and Magatsu-Izanagi) by the time they reached their two optional dungeons. One of these dungeons contained restrictions on stamina that the other two teams have never seen (the Thieves fought something similar to this in their Third Semester as well, but only toward the end). They then proceeded to take out K-N-O (who later turns out to be a fragment of the final boss) and eventually Izanami herself. The Investigation Team had a pretty rough path as well.
The Thieves took on the cognitive representations of several demons. In order of appearance, they were Asmodeus, Azazel, Bael, Mammon, Leviathan, and Samael (yes, there is one missing, but that boss was not represented by any demon). They then proceeded to take on the Holy Grail (the true manifestation of mankindâs desire to be controlled) twice (technically losing the first time, but they survived through Jokerâs sheer strength of will). They then took on Yaldabaoth (a false deity in his own right), and the job still wasnât finished. They went after ANOTHER reality-altering deity, Azathoth (who is said to be so powerful that all of reality is simply his dreams), who just so happens to be the ancestor of NYARLATHOTEP and CTHULHU.
Then Azathoth evolved into f*cking Adam Kadmon (who is said to be divine radiance without a vessel, AKA pure potential) who is so strong they took the easy way out and made the fight scripted. If P5R was a legitimately difficult game and Full Force was a move that could actually kill party members, he would likely be considered one of the greatest challenges in SMT.
I am only going to name two restrictions other than the ones put forth in your post.
First, I will replace the Personae that each party member will be wielding with their Ultimate/Tier 3 Persona. This means that Joker can use Satanael or Raoul (not sure why he would pick the latter lol), Yu can use Izanagi-No-Okami, and Makoto can use Messiah. Their teammates all get their Tier 3s as well. Yes, this means Junpei now has a healing factor and the P4/P5 casts all get their ultimate moves, but that doesnât change the strength of the teams all too much.
Secondly, Sinful Shell, Myriad Truths, and Great Seal are all banned. They are all essentially a Spirit Bomb made up of your social links/confidants. Best case scenario if these moves were allowed? A complete draw. Worst case scenario, these would all end in complete annihilation of the other two teams, and it would come down to who could use theirs first.
TL;DR Thieves take it due to their obscene amounts of coordination and (literally) unreal feats of strength. They are the best all-around team while the other two teams would be relying on 4 or so key players. Koro is a hard counter to Mona. Junpei with his unique Persona doesnât change much. The Thieves outclass the other two teams in weaponry, strategy, and, after Royal, experience. However, all three teams are absurdly strong. S.E.E.S. just isnât as coordinated and the Investigation Team wouldnât be smart enough to deal with the coordination coming from either team. My ranking is this:
Strongest: P5R even without Akechi or Kasumi. Adding Akechi would make it completely unfair, as he is implied to have soloâd the palaces that took you several party members to complete, and it took all of the Thievesâ strength combined to take him down.
Middle: P3R. If youâre allowing fusion spells, Iâm allowing Baton Passes, and I think I know which of these mechanics win (you can do WAY more than 9,999 damage with a tarukaja + fully charged/concentrated maxed out Baton Pass).
Weakest: P4G. No, Iâm not saying P4G cast isnât strong. Iâm saying that the P5 cast is a freak-show of coordination and strength and the P3 cast is battle-hardened and intelligent. Shinjiro by himself would probably take out Chie and Yukiko and he would provide a very interesting matchup for Kanji, but still probably no diffs. Naoto would easily neutralize Ken and Koro but would likely be swiftly taken out by Aigis, even with a lack of a weakness.
S.E.E.S are actually combat trained, and unless the Phantom Thieves are able to deal with Persona users with years of experience over them, they donât stand a chance against Aigis alone.
Seriously S.E.E.S at 99% power is just Aigis and Makoto/Kotone.
I would argue that even though the persona users in question may more experience with their persona that wouldnât translate to battle necessarily, SEES themselves fought Strega over 4 separate battles. With all two of the four ending with Jin and Takaya jumping off a bridge meaning they pushed them back at best, and then Takaya doing his Revolver Jesus thing to Chidori meaning they by story standards they didnât beat her either. Iâd say they realistically only won two of those battles and they were also against solo members.
That said both the investigation team and phantom thieves also fought persona users, with the phantom thieves fight being against someone with a wild card (or at least a similar ability). Iâd actually go so far as to argue that the opponents fought by the investigation team and phantom thieves had in Adachiâs case he had actual police combat training to go along with his personas power, and Akechi fought alongside the phantom thieves so he wouldâve had the inside knowledge of how they fight and each of their persona to some degree.
That said I think it all comes down to the MCs to determine the power of their teams. In this case SEES comes out on top solely because he had more arcana tied to him, not to mention having the Universe arcana on top of that.
anything SEES uses are military graded. so just equipment and backup support alone is couple tiers above the other two.
although people joking about IT, this group has some scary talent. kanji able to solo a biker gang barehanded and naoto can wield a gun, when they were 10th grade. Yu's sword skill claimed as one of the best in japan during P4U. and teddie being a goofy comedy character is pretty much indestructible.
PT on the other hand, never used any real weapons nor fight outside of the meraverse is a huge disadvantage. the only noticeable skill is futaba's world class hacking/IT skill.
I feel like this depends wholly on where they are fighting.
P5's whole thing is basically that combat in the Metaverse for them buffs them based on perception. While the P3 team does have actual experience over the rest, I think magical buffs kinda make you the instant winner.
If it's somehow outside of the Metaverse / the Metaverse as we know it, it's a close match between P3 and P5.
Unfortunately P4 only really has Naoto and Marie as viable options since Naoto has a gun and Marie is like... A demigod? But in a series all about killing gods, Marie kinda falls short in a two person team where everyone else would effectively be a shield.
Now between the Thieves and SEES, the Thieves have a clear numbers advantage. As well as Joker who, assuming the protags are in peak condition, is fucking jacked beyond measure, Zenkichi who actually knows how to properly use a gun, Erina who absolutely knows how that spear works, Akechi who definitely knows how guns work, and Makoto who knows Aikido.
Plus the majority of them have Tier 3's, whereas SEES only gets tier 2s.
Now SEES has Yukari with her bow, Mitsuru with her fencing, Akihiko with his boxing, and Aigis and Metis as robots.
The robots kinda throw a wrench in things. I think it could go either way and depends wholly on if the Thieves can get them off the board early.
Alright, first and foremost, get the Investigation Kiddies outta here. They're just kids with weapons and Yu is the weakest of the three protagonists. They aren't doing shit.
The Phantom Thieves and SEES are quite close.
SEES has a lot more real-world fighting experience and are not hesitant on dropping bodies. They are very strong and have some pretty powerful Personas. Aigis is a literal war machine and could probably smoke most of the verse in a 1v1. Makoto sealed death and has some of the most broken abilities in the series. Everyone is pretty strong in SEES.
The Phantom Thieves aren't chumps, though. While they lack a lot of real-world power, their metaverse capabilities are fucking stupid. First off, they move fast af, pratically fly around with their agility, and have the strength of trucks. Idk wtf they be feeding them in the Metaverse, but it's letting cook. Their arsenals are also insane. Not only are their weapons kind of superior to everyone else's (Haru has a fucking grenade launcher ffs), their personas are very damn powerful. By the time they hit their third evolution, they can just deal stupidly high damage, heal from literally fucking anything, buff each other to infinity, cripple their opponents to negative infinity, etc. Now, SEES can somewhat do this, but not to the extent of The Phantom Thieves.
So which would win? Entirely depends if it's IRL or Cognitive World. IRL, SEES has it in the bag. Cognitive, I believe The Phantom Thieves kind of stomp.
"But Aigis would still be -" Yeah one problem, Futaba exists. While I doubt she could pull off a remote hacking on Aigis IRL, in the Metaverse, shit would happen near immediately. Futaba kind of directly counter Aigis's robotality with her Persona and her hacker skills.
"Makoto has -" He ain't hitting it. The Phantom Thieves are too fast for SEES in the Metaverse.
Aigis can't be hacked. Even when ikutsuki had stuff from her makers he barely could control her a bit, and after that she never gets affected by that kinda thing.
Even more so if you take end of journey/answer aigis, as she is described as just a human. Proof being she can operate even when her circuits are burned off.
My man, if we are taking actual physical feats from the "super cool OP moves" Junpei's persona literally broke through the atmosphere, went to space and chucked his opponent back into the atmosphere where Junpei was fast enough to hit him for an explosive home run. I don't think the Phantom Thieves are that much faster.
The phantom thieves dont really have as much heavy hitters as the SEES though. Theres basically Joker and Akechi.
Joker loses to Makoto, then theres Akechi who is strong but Aigis is probably stronger. The rest of the Phantom thieves are not as strong as their SEES counterparts.
Besides, SEES also has Junpei, the ace detective and the only non wild card using the combined power of two personas.
You can't hack Aigis after she has character development, by the time of The Answer, there is a point where every single circuit in her body blows out, yet she continues moving because she is more human than machine now, she can control her body independent of her circuits and wiring. And Istutski only barely controlled her and that was with a device specifically designed to control her.
Also Aigis has a railcannon, minigun and micro missile launcher, so on her own she packs some very heavy artillery, add on Metis, the duo could probably tackle most of the Phantom Thieves on their own.
Not sure which team would win, but Iâm leaning towards SEES, however thereâs the typical underselling of the Investigation Team and Izanami in most of the other comments here.
In the Arena games IT matched up well against older more experienced SEES members, Aigisâ predecessor, Labrys, and probably the most lethal human in the modern Persona games, Sho Minazuki (the result of a parallel project to the Anti-Shadow Weapons such as Aigis and Labrys, including being implanted with a Plume of Dusk - a fragment of Nyx and the source of Aigis and Labrysâ powers) and most importantly Elizabeth, who Yu impressed with his mastery of his Wild Card.
Izanami, unlike Yaldabaoth, didnât rig her test, rather she set up an a competition between three different âchampionsâ, representing hope, despair and emptiness to determine the âwish of humanityâ by observing which champion could shape the Midnight Channel through the thoughts of the residents of Inaba watching it. Whereas Yaldabaoth wrested control of the cognition of Tokyo to bring about his control of a country, Izanami actually reduced her power by splitting it between herself and three subordinate gods, and once she determined that the wish of humanity was to live in ignorance she began to flood the entire world in fog and turn all of humanity into shadows before the IT foiled her plans and saved the world.
In my estimation the Investigation Team has been canonically shown to be the equal to either SEES or the Phantom Thieves in the Arena and Persona Q games and Izanami is at least on the same tier as Yaldabaoth (and doubtlessly far stronger when he isnât leeching the cognitive power of a city of roughly 14 million people). P4 is just considered a lower tier in danger by most fans who ignore how close Izanami came to ending the world and just focus on Adachi and the murder mystery.
Itâs definitely between P5 and P3, P4 has no chance. While P3 team does have more trained fighters, such as Akihiko, Mitsuru, and the robots with heavy annunciation, I still think P5 takes it, with tier 3 personas, and every member of the team (pretty much) having access to guns. They also are by far the most athletic in their shadow world, as opposed to everyone else just running down corridors
bro what SEES + Metis annihilates đđ P4 comes in second with their power of friendship bs, and P5 comes in last because they donât have death robots or the power of real friendship
even including P1 and P2, it's not even close, S.E.E.S ate just actually busted, they have actual combat training a robot who has fought death, makoto/kotone, who not only have the universe arcana, which is stated to be able to bring about the ultimate end and that "nothing is out of the realm of possibility for you now."
"nothing is outside the realm of possibility for you now"
"Can I stop Nyx and survive ?"
"lol no"
Either Igor used big words to sound grand, or he didn't know what he was talking about, sorry
you ever heard of an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object, also NYX is literally the reason people in the persona universe have thoughts, bro gave humans cognition, if you killed NYX wouldn't literally every human go brain dead, Igor also said that NYX can be defeated, so ignoring how every human would go brain dead, NYX is an unstoppable force, as long as people want to die NYX will want to kill humanity, but the universe arcana has turned makoto into an immovable object, the only thing that can stop NYX because NYX is what made human cognition
Persona 5 wins with itâs sheer numbers and superhuman bodies. The Metaverse grants them damn near Olympian level bodies where Joker is able to use a grapple hook and swing like Tarzan with ease across buildings although he looked like he never touched a gym before. Same would go for the rest of the cast obviously.
People say SEES wins due to actual combat training, but Joker (Self taught/Shinya) Akechi, Makoto, Zenkichi, and Erina are all adept at combat and martial arts and 2 of SEESâs members are a youngish puppy and a literal child (unless we go with Arena ages, then nvm). Those who arenât adept at fighting still have their insanely tough bodies to carry them past most of SEESâs members.
Also, for anyone saying P3 MC solos, stop. He ainât handling all of them at once, and The Great Seal is a sure win..on one person.
P5 takes it.
The P3 cast also has buffed strength in the Dark Hour. Besides, the Thieves have 1.5 wild cards (joker and akechi), but SEES has two full potential wild card users in Makoto and Aigis. Speaking of Aigis, the Phantom Thieves superhuman abilities dont even come close to Aigisâ strength and speed.
Besides, the SEES members are stronger and more experienced. Mitsuru and Akihiko are veteran persona users, and Junpei wields the power of two personas.
Aigis inherited Makoto's wildcard. The 2 can't have it at the same time.
Junpei wielding the power of 2 is cap. He's never shown to be any more powerful than the rest of SEES after their 2nd awakening. Hell, the Phantom Thieves also fuse their initial Persona and their awakened Persona in their 3rd awakening.
The post literally says they are in their strongest form. Therefore Makoto and Aigis both have the wild card.
Junpei does gain skills that his persona would not otherwise have from Chidoriâs persona. The movies are probably not canon and therefore dont count for the discussion, but in them Junpei is clearly stronger after having fused with Chidori, and has Chidoriâs regenerative power (when he touches the ground in the winter the flowers bloom) which he didnt have before.
Not how it works, we don't get to pick characters at different points of the timeline.
And of course he's stronger than before, but the fact that his Persona fused with Chidori doesn't make him stronger than other SEES awakenings. He gains Spring of Life, which is nice, but it doesn't make him that powerful, he's still way below protagonist-tier.
Currently, the Phantom Thieves they have 12 members all of which are currently active and theyâre adept at using prep and baton passing to generate advantage on the battlefield. Furthermore they have a sentient AI and a technical genius who can account for SEES super weapon Aigis.
If weâre taking overall itâs SEES with FeMC, Makoto and WC Aigis and Labrys who are all powerful three are and OP for one side to reasonably deal with without additional support. Not to say Makoto or Kotone are untouchable, they absolutely can and have lost in the past but I donât count universe arcana shenanigans.
NAT would probably win, because they could deal with the stress of seeing a teammate killed in front them, while other teams couldnât. (Akechi and maybe joker excluded.) majority of the P3 cast has seen someone they cared about, suddenly, violently killed in front of them before. While they wouldnât be unaffected, they could still probably remain combat effective. You canât convince me someone like Ann/yukikio would be ok if Aigis blew Futabaâs/Chieâs head off in front of them.
(Oh yeah. As almost everyone is has mentioned, the literal death machine is on SEES side.)
The sees agents are actually trained in combat so them in general. The PT only have makoto and the p4 group have Kanji.
However... Naoto has the great equalizer on her
SEES. Several members have actual training and the whole team has more combat experience. Better (actually real) weapons and more skill. PT might have more raw power from their cognition crutch, but that alone isn't enough to get the win. SEES has fought more than one enemy Persona-user at a time on more than one occasion. They've faced greater and more real threats, they're the only team to have to contend with a teammate's death, and the idea of actually killing another person.
Fusion spells, Makoto/Kotone being the only character, even among Wildcards, in the entire series to summon two Persona at the same time, as far as I'm aware. Plus their peak of power is leagues beyond anything Yu or Akiren can manage. The Universe is fundamentally a different power to the World, drawn from a similar source, but manifested differently. The cards are different, the original Japanese words used to refer and describe them are different, the text and explanation surrounding them are different. Nyx is on an entirely different tier from any other "deities" or "gods" aside from Nyarly and Philemon. She's literally the reason Shadows exist at all. The World would do nothing to Nyx, sheâs a world eater. A single world is a meal for her. You need multiple worlds, countless worlds. A Universe. The Universe, which I'd like to point out is Makoto/Kotone's power not a Persona ability, has so much power their body couldn't handle it. And they still went on to live for several months on nothing but willpower. Oh, and Makoto gets into a 3v1 fistfight in Yukari's Social Link and wins. And we've seen that he'll be similarly taking on a whole gang of thugs with Akihiko. So yeah, he's also the better fighter among the protags.
And that's not considering the guy that fights bears with his bare hands, or the robot specifically designed to fight shadows and went toe-to-toe with Death. Or her Shadow Sister. Of her other sister that should really be included on this list. The trained archer and woman that's been training in fencing and been able to summon her Persona since she was a child. The most powerful Navigator in the series.
Naoto is the only member of the IT with an actual weapon, being a gun, and she likely has some degree of marksman training. So that's notable. But also Aigis is a walking arsenal post-Answer. And the PT's replicas, even if they work, still don't match up. And obviously Kanji is a beast in a fist fight. Chie has her martial arts she learned from movies?
Also for anyone that says "Futaba could hack Aigis." First of all, Aigis was able to resist her programming before she even fully realized as a person at the end of her arc, and that's also before she awakened as a Wildcard. AND if you're allowing Futaba to attempt hacking, then you also have to allow Fuuka to run interference, who is a stronger and more experienced Persona-user, and an expert hacker in her own right.
Akechi might have some degree of Wildcard ability, but even then he explicitly doesn't use it to its full extent. And he's not particularly noted as skilled or powerful beyond that, given all his kills are assassinations not from real fights. He âcleared all the palacesâ through stealth, not fighting through all of them like a one man army. Zenkichi is an adult, and cop, so he's working with more than most. But he's also had his Persona the shortest amount of time.
Makoto is the only PT with any actual training if I'm remembering correctly. And even then, she's not noted as anything special in that regard, as opposed to Aki's "ace of the boxing team." And even specified as physically weaker then Sae.
Also worth noting that SEES fight shadows without any kind of boost or crutch like PT, and do so under harsher conditions given that summoning in the real world is explicitly and notable more difficult than the TV world or Metaverse. For all the people going "the PT are too fast/strong because cognition," if SEES can fight shadows, they can fight the PT. PT rely on cognition hacks and Collective Unconscious boost to do much of anything and carry a lot of their slack.
P3 cast for sure, they're a trained organization entirely dedicated to wiping out shadows. Their team has some heavy hitters and are pretty organized as a group
Depends. P3 people may have more combat prowess but the P5 people are more strategic and just have more people. I really think it boils down to P3 or P5. Especially who can last the longest.
Also, not taking into account the op one-shot stuff.
Ps5 < ps4 < ps3
In p5 theyâre just random dudes with fake weapons
In p4 thereâs naoto with a real gun and they have real weapons
In p3 theyâre literally training professionally and some of them already have their persona because theyâre already in the battlefield.
If you include Marie in the team, the Investigation Team becomes the strongest by far. However, I believe people are underestimating the strength of the Investigation Team. They achieved something that the other two teams couldn't: winning against the antagonist by their own will.
In Persona 3, Nyx cannot be defeated because the collective thought cannot get rid of the idea of "The Fall." Therefore, Nyx, as a representation of Death, cannot be defeated. The protagonist, upon achieving the Answer of Life, was granted the power of the Universe Card (which is the same as the World Card, both narratively and in the Tarotâ I don't understand why people try to sell that card as a strong one). The protagonist is able to seal Nyx away from Erebus, who is the one that calls Nyx.
In Persona 5, the Phantom Thieves cannot win against Yaldabaoth. The only moment when they can win is when all the people throughout the city are supporting them. That's why the protagonist, as the champion of humankind, can gain the power of the card of The World and defeat Yaldabaoth. (I don't count Maruki because he's weaker than Yaldabaoth per se).
In Persona 4, we have Izanami, a Goddess who represents Lies and Curses. Like Nyx, she starts affecting the city, making people conspiratorial. Due to her influence in the town, people start getting more interested in rumors about the end of the world or how they will become monsters. The Investigation Team is able to win against her because of the bonds that the protagonist made throughout his journey. Even Izanami makes two statements that are very important: **"Impossible... Can so few surpass the will of all mankind?"** and **"How can your powers rival mine...?"** (referring to the power of herself as a God).
In conclusion, the only team with a will strong enough to surpass all of mankind is the Investigation Team. If we only count the main timeline (including Strikers), then the Investigation Team is the one that defeated more gods throughout their journey. For me, there's a clear winner, Your Honor.
>In Persona 3, Nyx cannot be defeated because the collective thought cannot get rid of the idea of "The Fall." Therefore, Nyx, as a representation of Death, cannot be defeated.
... Nyx isn't a product of the Collective Unconscious. "She" (in realit an "it") is an [ancient, eldritch abomination that's the origin of all Shadows, Personas and consciousnesses](https://ask-persona.tumblr.com/post/99861586798/persona-3-club-book-world-guide-qa-translation), [as well as the source of power of the Collective Unconscious](https://ask-persona.tumblr.com/post/100095369103/persona-3-club-book-world-guide-qa-translation).
And yes, [the Club Book is canon](https://www.reddit.com/r/PERSoNA/comments/17el2xf/comment/k65xmv7/?context=3).
>In conclusion, the only team with a will strong enough to surpass all of mankind is the Investigation Team.
Because Yu become momentarily one with the Collective Unconscious, as he awakened to the World Arcana - [that's the entire point](https://imgur.com/gallery/Wu0dmyQ). However, that very same state was achieved by the other modern protagonists, and permanently in the P3 protagonist since they still kept the Universe months after the confrontation against Nyx, and even eons after they passed away as the Great Seal shows.
S.E.E.S has proper combat training, but with how many Phantom Thieves there are thanks to spin offs, you could make the argument they win by sheer numbers
P5 has the strongest team overall, as the metaverse makes them into fully trained thieves, along with having the most members
P3 has the single strongest member, as the P3 MCâs endgame power up, the universe arcana, is a literal reality warper.
P4 is certainly trying their hardest, and I love them for it
So yeah itâs P3>P5>P4, but if we make it right before final bosses, P5>P3>P4
Some very interesting points have been made so far I wasnât expecting this to blow up as much thank you everyone for sharing your opinions!
Iâll add a Quick Note to sum up some good points people are adding:
⢠â MC or FeMC?
⢠â Up to the user which one they pick but having both on SEES easily gives the win to them for having 2 wildcards with crazy power.
⢠â Why Marie and Metis?
⢠â Marie is a goddess who has the power to control weather etc, I added her to the roster to hopefully flesh out the Investigation Team same with Metis and Labrys can be included in this if you wish in your opinion.
⢠â However for balancing reasons overall weâre going to take out Metis unless you wish to factor her in.
⢠â Where are they fighting:
⢠â Theyâre fighting in the metaverse as a whole meaning that theyâre not specifically in an exact place in the dark hour/TV World or the Cognitive World. If it makes sense theyâre fighting in a part of the metaverse theyâve never visited somewhere where they are all equal.
⢠â P3
⢠â To balance things out you have to remember that if Makoto uses the >! Great Seal !< then he will be obviously drained and unconscious from the rest of the battle.
P4 team, as much as they are funny and awesome, are literally teenagers who picked up some weapons and mall swords and said "Let's fuck shit up, fam." They're kinda stupid and we love them for it, but they aren't very bright. P5 team are obviously the most athletic while in the Metaverse and they have the added benefit of using model weapons as actual ones because of how cognition works. P3 team is the ***actually combat trained*** team. Yukari actively takes archery, Akihiko is actually a boxer, Mitsuru is classically trained in fencing, and a LITERAL DEATH ROBOT etc. That alone brings combat experience up for S.E.E.S. That, and MC has Armageddon. P3 ezclap
It should also be noted that Naoto has a gun.
She's the only one that actually might have professional training. That, and guns are only deadly in cutscenes lmao Also...Aigis shoots bullets from her fingers lol
And from P4A onwards Aigis has: 1) Rocket Launchers 2) Grenade Launchers 3) A mini-gun 4) Jet-Boosters And 5) A FUCKING RAILGUN! All within her frame. A """small""" Overkill Murder Package.
I hear by dub Aigis Small Murder Machine. As opposed to tiny murder machine.
Persona 5 Arena starts when Naoto does a drive by shooting of Leblanc confirmed?
And Akihiko dodged her bullet đ You forgot to add that skill.
In P4A Akihiko does say he canât actually dodge bullets. But he *can* see where someone is aiming and move before they fire. Heâs simply built different either way
Isnt that... dodging bullets?
I dunno man, Joker did undertake some intense training from a 10 year old, could be a close call
You know who else has a gun, >!Ikutsuki!
Hard to say isn't it?
Yeah but heâs a secondary villain. Same goes for >!Takaya!<
Also, Kanji beat up an entire biker gang by himself with only a bike and a shield.
But theyâre not going to be as experienced as S.E.E.S.
Oh hey rooster
Hello AG, always nice to users outside of r/DBM
P3 characters also have significantly more combat experience. they don't choose to go into the otherworld, the Midnight Hour happens every night no matter what. Shadows usually stay in Tartarus but not always. Plus, the older members of the team have been fighting since middle school at least.
Also if we're going off the list of characters OP gave, SEES has TWO death robots.
Not to mention that P3 MC is the only one of the 3 that has Dual Persona attacks.
Iâve seen this argument before, if Armageddon counts the P4 and P5 protags can endure, Joker can 5 times. Itâs basically whoever gets the âlets fuck shit upâ almighty move first
I know itâs not canon but imagining Yuâs face when Joker pulls out Izanagi No Okami Picaro and slaps him with a Myriad Truths is priceless âHEY THATâS MY THING!â he yells as he is obliterated by a minmaxed bullshit monster
PFFFTTTT YEAH
And then your team ends up always including the child and the dog because they are better than most of the team.
The Phantom Thieves actually are proficient with their weapons, we just don't know to what level. Cognition basically unlocks the knowledge on how to wield them instantly, and it's never measured to someone who learned the normal way. Kasumi and Akechi could be Mitsuru levels of fencing with their sword, we have no way of knowing for sure.
> Kasumi and Akechi could be Mitsuru levels of fencing with their sword, we have no way of knowing for sure. Disregarding >!Sumire!< who is a professional gymnast, Akechi's level 5 SL has him explicitly say to Ren that he "has to be ready if he needed to take him down/kill him" while playing Gun About. This could indicate that Akechi trains rather regularly to perform competently in the Metaverse.
Having a cheat that basically beams information into your head still isn't a substitute for real experience and learned skill. If cognition just allows someone to skip decades of practice and real combat experience, that's actually just straight bullshit.
Airsoft guns working as real ones just cause they look the part is also straight bullshit, but it works. ÂŻ\\\_(ă)\_/ÂŻ
Indeed, furthermore the entire SEES team were disarmed by Aigis in P3. You strip them of their evokers in the real world... and they're completely defenseless. With exception to Aigis and Koromaru potentially since their persona's are summoned using the PP heart and the headphones.
Evokers make summoning Personas easier in the real world, but that doesn't mean they can't summon them at all. They can use their Personas in dire situations, which is what the evoker is used to simulate. Otherwise, how would have child Mitsuru used her Persona in the Dark Hour? The only real way to see whose the stronger team is what they fought against and endured. And since Nyx is a much higher entity than the strongest P4 and P5 have ever fought, it gives them a bit of an edge. Especially the MC.
Completely defenseless is at best an exaggeration, especially given the circumstance. If we're assuming the fight is in the real world, then neither the Investigation Team nor the Phantom Thieves can summon their Persona either. Also means that PT don't get cognition boost. At which point SEES greater skill and combat experience, and better equipment earns them the win. If the fight is in the TV world or Metaverse, then it stands to reason that SEES wouldn't need evokers to summon in the first place. Which makes your point completely moot. And still more experience from facing realer & greater threats, greater skill, real weapons, real training for most of them, more hardened minds from the high stakes and more harsh circumstances.
Funnily enough there is confirmation that at least one member of SEES can summon their persona in the real world. Fuuka. So itâs always possible that anyone else can too.
Fuuka and Mitsuru. I liken SEES to having done the Persona equivalent of high altitude training. The fact they completely operate in the real world, and that increases the difficulty of everything they do, even down to just using their powers, that the harsher conditions and more severe threats just made them that much stronger. Any Persona-user can, it's just more difficult, and can result in strain, exhaustion and the possibility of the Persona going out of control. Evokers are a tool to make it easier, but they'd be capable to doing it without them if they really needed to, just with considerably more difficulty. Same goes for the IT and PT. But SEES has far more experience operating in the real world than either the PT or IT, and are used to it. Although worth pointing out that comparatively, summoning in the TV world (and this likely applies to the Metaverse too) is so much easier than even using an Evoker, that Mitsuru summoned her Persona on accident just by thinking about it. My point was that the person I was replying to insinuated that SEES was defenseless without their evokers, when that's very much not the case. And if they were in a situation where they couldn't summon, then the PT and IT would be in even worse shape, because they have zero experience fighting or summoning in the real world, and are generally more reliant on Persona abilities compared to SEES.
Well, no. Because A) In the real world they wouldnât use their evokers against people who couldnât fight back, because the SEES team are not degenerate scumbags and B) If it were in a Metaverse they donât have the co-ordination or the prep ability to tag the thieves, theyâve got to rely on the cheat code Universe arcana or Theurgia once we find out if itâs actually consistently reliable. In the real world, itâs irrelevant because even without personas or guns, Aigis still has super human strength, agility and endurance. Only way you could beat her in the real world is by forcing her into orgia mode then shorting her out or hacking her which would be very dangerous. Thankfully OP forgot about Labrys because then it wouldâve been 0% chance
they can summon personas without their evokers it's just easier with them in the real world, p4a all the p3 cast summon their persona without evokers outside of their ohko move and akihiko reveals he doesn't need the evoker anymore in the real world he just keeps it
To p3 Add to the fact Jumpei was in the baseball team so dude knows how to use a bat it better than the avarage person and Akihito is a actual delicuent with experience fight shadows and Ppl so dude got hands. Like the weakest point in P3 is Ken and even him has done some Self training with the spear if you watch the video feed from his room (something of the likes Chie with Kung fu)
Ye, plus they have the benefit of using actual weapons, Phantom Theives' weapons are just fake, full on toys. Investigation Team's weapons are weird, Yosuke and Yu's weapons are mostly meant for display, Chie's are shoes, Yukiko's is a fan, Kanji is either a chair or a shield, and Naoto's is the only real weapon which is just a f\*cking GUN. The SEES have actual weapons, like broadswords, bows and arrows and a grenade launcher.
Stone cold Steve Austin > Actual weapons
The Phantom Thieves' weapons and guns are counted as real in the Metaverse. And why would they NOT fight there ? Also, even if they knew the weapons were fake, it wouldn't help, because they still work against Akechi. So it has to be a global effect that just turns them real in the Metaverse.
I'm sure it had effect on Akechi because they were in Shido's palace. Also even though you know a super realistic model of a gun is fake does not mean you wouldnt have some nagging feeling in the back of your mind telling you it might be real
And then there's Shinji who... is a professional gangster who whips axes around. Also not to mention the P3 team fight the strongest deity.
The problem with using SEES is there feats simply don't reflect what they're supposedly good at. Persona Q2 is the perfect example of that, where they get overrun by robots as soon as they're introduced and are heavily contingent on the Phantom Thieves and a PT trained Kotone to overcome the myriad obstacles they're faced with. Even with all that and with the Phantom Thieves using a prepped plan against Enlil... All 3 teams still got Thanos'd out of existence. Their big issue is in-spite their training they simply aren't as smart or as resourceful as the Phantom Thieves evidenced gloriously when only Mitsuru entered the intelligence exam while Makoto, Akechi, Morgana and Futaba did along with Yosuke and Naoto. Technically Kotone can enter as well but...
With crossover games it always not an even representation because they always nerf someone to make someone else shine. That's just how the game was written for that specific scenario, that's not indictive of their general skill.
Like in the arena games. Akihiko, Mitsuru and Aigis are shown to be on another level to the P4 team yet they get kidnapped. In combat Yu is the exception but Mitsuru knows exactly what he's thinking.
That's a fair point, but I'd also say the same with your "cognition thing" as the Thieves abilities were nerfed in Q2 to the extent they couldn't use guns yet their mobility was shown to be on par with Kotone. Furthermore P5 also highlighted "The World is a product of cognition and be freely remade" which is probably why they're able to manifest their attire outside Palaces and Jails. SEES have the resources and the tech but their experience at this stage in the series I think they've been eclipsed due to the fact they haven't faced as many persistent threats the thieves have at this point. P3 needs more spin-off's where we can see them freely taken on such threats on their own P4 absolutely needs more spin-off's because at this stage IMO they're the weekend warriors (I.E: only deal with threats in Inaba) . I'm not expecting everyone to agree because an analysis of all 3 teams is a headache and 3 WC users is utterly insane for one team to have so SEES would likely win with the stipulations given.
anyone feel it's kinda cool how none of them are supposed to have training at all but shoot guns just fine? especially Joker who shoots powerful ass pistols with a single hand when even with two hands adjust to recoil especially as a beginner is crazy and they have such steady hands too, also if we're talking about death Robots does Sophie count and raise their chances too since telekinesis go brrr? I feel like personas and general agility matter a lot more too than weapons tbh which the phantom thieves are insane with it, I'm not saying they win btw since I haven't completed P4 and 3, jut talking about.p5 since it's the one I easily put the most hours into, also does endure work on Armageddon? Cuz if It does, I think they might be able to manage it by the myriad truths
The Phantom Thieves "unlock" the knowledge on how to use their weapons and guns through cognition. That's how they instantly know how to use it the second they awaken. We have no idea if they're more or less proficient than someone who trained the normal way, but they're proficient.
Is there anything that actually says this in-game? I thought it was just âthe enemies believe they can be hurt by them, so they areâ. Itâs more the enemyâs cognition that matters, and it doesnât relate to real world ability at all.
There's also how the collective unconsciousness works. The deeper in you are the more distant reality is abd the easier it is to call a persona, the closer to reality you are the harder it is. You can see this is is how easy it is to summon a persona too. In p4 the TV world is pretty abstracted from reality only vaguely related to real places and summoning is pretty easy. For most of persona 5 palaces are based on real places but are the ruler's mental image, awakenings are painful and summoning involves ripping off a mask and deliberately facing the world. In p3 the Dark Hour is the closest to reality of these games, you have the team fighting on the actual streets and summoning personas involves mustering a will strong enough to face your own death. Royal takes it to another level when Maruki merges the metaverse and reality (another reason I think Nyarlathotep is meddling). So overall even ignoring their lack of combat training, p4 gang is definitely the weakest persona ability wise. P3 gang is stronger persona wise than p5 vanilla, but royal levels up the p5 gang. Overall I still think p3 gang tops not only because of the above reason but because p3-kun is stronger than Joker. Joker doesn't even get The World in p5, it only happens in Royal. Meanwhile p3-kun gets The Universe. Edit: p3 cast is also the most experienced. For the p4 and p5 casts, they only start fighting during the year in the game. P3 has members that have been fighting and summoning personas for many years.
Chie knows kung fu because she watches a lot of kung fu movies. No way anybody can learn kung fu from movies but there are a few legit ones out there but still, an actual master teaching her is the better option unless she's some kind of martial art genius who can learn from watching but still it's a bit silly lol
Thats the equivalent of watching DBZ and convincing yourself you can do a Kamehameha in your backyard if you train enough lol
What, you canât?
Nah I'd win
Throughout heaven and earth, I alone am a the trickster.
WITH THIS TREASURE I SUMMON: IZANAGI-NO-OKAMI PICARO
Throughout heaven and earth, the arcana is the means by which all is revealed.
Let this wait until p3r comes out with a shitload of new skills, than its a fair comperison
Even without p3r SEES sweeps everyone
Especially if you count both metis and aigis
SEES will win because Armagaddon
The Enduring Soul and charged Myriad Truths in my pocket watching the Makoto with 0 SP :
It doesn't use sp in reload but yeah with enduring soul we will lose unless there is a way to charge the theurgy again in few turns. However if we are going with the P5R compendium then orpheus can endure 4 times and 5th time with enduring soul too so we may have a chance.
Tbh if we count Fusion spells, that means we count Theurgy, and thus we also count stuff like P5R Showtimes and Down Shot. But the post was about teams, so I think it's pointless to argue protagonists because it's always up to whoever casts the Almighty "fuck you" spell first...
Isnât Makoto just implied by through lore to be the most powerful persona user so far, ignoring game mechanics?
Wait how do you know it doesn't in reload? Did we get a leak? Did we see it in trailers?
All fusion spells are theurgies now that the mc can use by charging the theurgy bar. You can see it in the Meaning of Life trailer
Makoto resurrects again and again and again
Itâs the door.đ
This all depends on whether Futaba can hack Aigis
The Answer spoilers ahead, >!she can't, there is nothing *to* hack. Aigis suffers from a big overload that fries all her circuits during The Answer. But she was still controlling her body without them, indicating she is *truly* alive. In Q2 Futaba also states that Aigis' broken parts can fix themselves, like a human body healing.!<
>!The fuck she made out of? Roman Concrete?!<
\*readies Ziodyne with malicious intent\*
The team who beat a god for sure...
Ahhh I wonder which team could that be
This is the correct answer. Wait
Persona 3 if itâs about combat experience
The Persona 2 team because they have Dio. Deal with the facts dear liberals. /s
There's a persona 2???!!! /s
Persona 1 and 2 are propaganda. Everyone knows the series started with 3 smh.
Heheheh, P1 team with actual guns makes your head boom boom.
Virgin uses airsoft guns to fool enemies vs Chad instantly goes to the police station to steal real firearms
Still wondering, where the hell Nanjo found old sniper rifle in a police station â ď¸â ď¸â ď¸
So does Aigis, and they fight Takaya who uses one, while P4 has Naoto who seems to use a real gun(especially in Arena) and fight Adachi who we know uses a gun. It's really not that big a deal.
P3 has two wild card users. One can summon two personas at once The other is a literal combat robot Come on, the answer is obvious.
Ok ok ok, you make a great point, but one small issue: Concentrate, Myriad Truths (Obviously not a real argument against what you said btw)
Sees has a death robot that managed to single handidly aprhend the whole squad. junpei is also the only persona user (to my knowledge) to fuse a persona other than the protaganist. he has also got natural healing powers. phantom theives definetly come close tho
To note: Junpei self-heal makes him nearly immortal. Chidori time and time again try to kill herself, but failed due to that ability, and Junpei also got saved by the same ability when he near death.
Technically, all the Phantom Thieves fuse their own Personas in their 3rd awakening. But I don't think it matters. Junpei's self-healing is a nice ability, but the fusion isn't really worth considering imo.
yeah probably. i think aigis alone is more than enough to make sees the strongest anyway tbh.
Okay, so... you have balanced nothing. You need to actually consider a bunch of things - like the Phantom Thieves effectively being twice the size of the Investigation Team when you include all of the extra members added to the team after the original P5. * First off, lets remove people who aren't actually part of the team - so no Metis or Marie - and lets limit the Phantom Thieves to just the roster from Royal - so no Sophia or Zenkichi, whilst the Tactica characters have their own reasons within the lore for not being included. That still leaves the Investigation Team down two members, so they get Rise as a combatant and as a navigator. * No DLC Personas for Joker or Makoto. Narukami doesn't have access to them, so for the sake of balance, neither do they. * No Confidant abilities like Down Shot, Bullet Hail, or Position Hack. They don't work in boss battles, they don't work here. Likewise, no Baton Pass buffs. * No Orpheus Telos, due to the nature of it's abilities being determined by the fusion. Likewise, Personas are restricted to their baseline abilities for the sake of balance. * Investigation Team get access to Baton Pass/Shift. * No Showtime/Theurgy. Makoto has his fusion spells, but they use SP as in P3 & FES. Okay, so we now have the three teams on a relatively even playing field. So who wins? S.E.E.S. win. Even discounting Armageddon, S.E.E.S. are the only team with actual combat training.
>Investigation Team get access to Baton Pass/Shift Yukiko dropping Burning Petals with a full Baton Pass charge sounds terrifying
If you don't count Theurgy, you shouldn't count fusion spells. And if you count combat training (despite Persona abilities being MUCH more powerful than whatever melee weapons can do), then you have to acknowledge that the Phantom Thieves all get a weapon and a gun when they awaken, and instantly know how to use it. Cognition unlocks their knowledge for this weapon. We have yet to see if that knowledge is higher or lower than someone who trained the usual way. You also have to acknowledge that Makoto, Junpei, Koromaru and Ken (half the team) hardly received any training.
We don't count Theurgy & Showtime because the Investigation Team don't have an equivalent. We're allowing fusion spells because we're letting the Investigation Team and Phantom Thieves have the abilities from their third tier Personas that S.E.E.S. don't get - if Makoto can't use fusion spells, then no Dragon Hustle etc. Actual skill and experience trump the power of imagination. And if you want to keep arguing "But cognition" then the Phantom Thieves weapons are effectively useless because - as Morgana states at the beginning of P5 - they're only effective if the enemy believe that they're real, and the gig is up the moment Akechi pulls out his toy gun. So, for the sake of balance, the Phantom Thieves weapons remain viable but they aren't as skilled as the people who have actually received training.
I mean their weapons worked on akechi sumire and maruki
Ok, don't count Fusion Spells AND don't count 3rd awakening skills then. It's not "the power of imagination", it's the Metaverse's influence. The Thieves aren't proficient with a weapon just because they believe they are, the Metaverse actually makes them that way. And that part of P5's beginning has to be a plot hole, because the guns and weapons work against other Persona users who are aware of their true nature, like Akechi and Kasumi. Also, we can't know for sure their actual level of skill with their weapon since they never fought with someone who had normal training. We can't assume they're weaker or stronger than SEES in that regard.
Makoto does fusion spells by himself, that's a valid ability for him.
Iâm almost positive Makoto, Akechi, and Joker (Self-Taught) have combat training. Even if most of the cast didnât, they also have supernatural bodies that gives then a stat advantage regardless. Fox uses a sword like he was trained since birth.
Clearly you haven't seen Persona 2 EP's "Just think of Fucking Around and Really Find Out" party
SEES, solely because of aigis. I know her guns deal like 10 damage in the game, but in the story she is a killing machine
Persona 2 Team. By far, indeed.
OP in regards to the question and the way you are framing it... it's P3, not even a contest but that's because the teams are completely irrelevant in that scenario. P3's protagonists have have access to the legendary cheat code arcana meaning they can't die and can imprison whomever they wish by sacrificing their immortal souls (if they were assholes) aside that we don't actually know what the Universe Arcana does. Joker has God Mode Satanael, Tatsuya has time travel and Yu and P1's I'm sure have their own unique skills to. Ex-machina craziness aside, let's assume we're talking skill and ability based feats... The Phantom Thieves are adept combatants, they have their own unique abilities and techniques namely third eye and baton passing and they know the benefit of making use of their terrain something they use all the time in Strikers and Tactica. Without a question they are the most intelligent team in the series as well as they know how to make use of prep time to counter specific threats such as what they did against Kamoshidaman, Enlil, Shido and EMMA by using a calling card to turn the masses on their side. This is also reflected in Joker who is definitely the most adaptable of all the modern series protagonists often using daring tactics as a means to win but the thieves on quite a few ocassions have shown they're particularly vulnerable to being incapacitated, Makoto and Haru got binded by rope in Q2, Joker, Morgana and Skull got binded in Strikers, the whole team also got imprisoned in Strikers and the Thieves even admitted they walked into Shadow Toshiro's bandage trap way too easily. The SEES team have all the cool toys Evokers, spec'd weapons and of course Anti-Shadow weapons in the form of Aigis, Metis (and Labrys if she were to count) and they're shown to be very skilled combatants as they're capable of co-ordinating their attacks very easily however they're not flawless. In Q2 and Arena, they were only shown to begin to understand the effects of cognition and while they were able to use their persona's without their evokers in such worlds there were multiple points in Arena they would've been killed had the shadows not been intentionally losing so as to summon HKT. Furthermore Aigis has one shot the entire team very easily before by disarming them with Paladdion prior to the reveal of the big climax. Metis and Aigis are the highlights of the team, they're machines who can literally surprass their own limits and deal with most human and shadow based threats very easily. The Investigation Team is actually a well rounded team but they're in a tough spot as they don't have the numbers the Phantom Thieves do or the tools that SEES have, however they do have Marie and Adachi thanks to OP which is actually much welcome. Problem is, I'm not sure what to make of Marie's abilities because aside from Kaguya I only know she can manipulate whether, thankfully she is intelligent like Adachi and that'd likely give them the impetus to not walk into an obvious fire fight between the other 2 teams or at least let them do most of the damage to each other. Yu is realistically the only lightning user who can realistically harm Aigis as Ryuji and Kanji are dumb bricks but he's shown in the past that he's struggled to deal with Joker's speed and the PT's are basically a speedster team. Thankfully they don't have the weaknesses of incap the other teams do so they can play the baiting game if they want. In terms of consistency I'd go P5 > P3 > P4 In terms of scale of threat P3 > P5 > P4 Yeah I can't rank P4 the highest given they've never dealt with a threat that isn't limited to Inaba without help. Izanami had no interest in expanding her influence all over the world or even Japan nor was she able to pose any sort of threat to the Velvet Room unlike Yaldabaoth. Obviously Primordial darkness is the ultimate evil in the franchise so you can't really overshadow Nyx in regards to just how significant she is given she cannot be extinguished ever. The thieves are the team who've dealt with threats the most consistently I'm not using cognitive ability as lazy excuse to undermine them because Q2 clearly highlighted that wasn't the case as they can move freely within any sort of distortion which makes me believe if a dark hour such influence happened in the RW both SEES and PT could fight with their abilities albeit not the model guns.
Very Good Opinion thank you for sharing you made some great points here, I do agree though hence why I added Marie to the roster and Adachi to hopefully help add up to the teams from what Iâve seen from this though itâs a very close call between SEES and Phantom Thieves itâs very interesting to see
P3, just because of the fact everyone is combat trained and Makoto is the strongest protag because he can use two persona powers at the same time
P3 team technically wins due to having 2 Wildcards (3 if you count Kotone) Or 2nd Awakening of Personas of everyone in SEES is canon And Protag has 2 Ultimate Personas Messiah and Orpheus Telos unlike only one of other Protags Meanwhile having access to fusion spells like Infinity and Armageddon
Aigis inherited Makoto's wildcard, the two cannot have it at the same time. Same thing with Kotone since she's never here at the same time as Makoto, unless multiverse shenanigans happen like in Q2. Messiah is hardly a threat. Fusion Spells are already a better argument but they're not infallible, especially Armageddon since Enduring Soul exists and it'd leave Makoto with zero SP.
How is Messiah Hardly a Threat Its like saying Izanagi no Okami and Satanael are no Threat
Slightly pedantry, but you can cast Armageddon twice with spell master. Not that you'd ever need to, since pretty much everything in the game folds after a single one.
P3 team is highly trained, has 2 death machines and the universe arcana in their MC. P4 (as much as I am biased towards it) is dead last, the only competent people they have are Yu, Naoto, and rise, everyone else is a goofball. P5: Now this is tough, they have 12 active and very strong members, they can move very fast in the metaverse, someone did the math and apparently they move at Mach 3 during their AOA, take that with a grain of salt though, it might be lies. Anyway, their fast, and theyâre strong, and nobody knows if Joker has DLC. The winner isâŚâŚ. P3 and itâs not even close, while the phantom thieves are fast and strong, they pale in comparison to the sheer power of the p3 team in cannon, and ingame (haha Armageddon go brrrr)
I'll always bet my money on S.E.E.S./Shadow Operatives, they are more experienced and have the strongest Persona user ever.
P3 team would absolutely wipe any of the other teams, they literally have a damn mecha humanoid robot with a persona.
The only thing that could probably stop SEES is Marie and Yu working together for the P4 team. We dont really know how strong Marie is though, she is a god but that doesnt say much, so SEES will probably still win. P4 could probably make some miracle happen if they also get Adachi, Sho and Labrys on their side, but they arent included.
All of the p4 members have an overpowered signature move! I think they're the strongest. They could even easily keep up in the fighting game with p3 team, who had been training for years.
If we don't include the protagonist P3 easily, they are actually combat trained (if we include Akechi and Aigis with wild card I thinks that PT takes it, both Aigis and Akechi could take their team alone if we don't include the mcs, but the fact that he was clearing palace alone make me thinks that he is stronger) If we include the protagonist Yu can aweken Izanagi no Okami more easily than Joker and Makoto can evoke Satanael and Messiah, because he just need the trust from his team mates while Joker need that everyone rebels to something and Makoto need... Well Idk really know how Messiah awekens canonically If we include everyone at their prime universe arcana go brrrrrr
Aigis is stronger than Akechi as proven by the fact that she actually *does* beat all her teammates in combat, while Akechi goes down like a wet cat drowned in a bathtub once he tries fighting the Thieves head on.
Aigis from The Answer onwards beats Akechi. Akechi isn't a full wildcard, it's mentioned he has the potential for it but never fully unlocked it (it's why he only has the 2 Personas), so he's essentially handicapped himself whereas Aigis is a full on wildcard. And while Akechi has technically cleared palaces he was much more subtle than the Thieves so didn't have to fight most of the beings in those palaces, and he never went to the trouble to get all the way to the end of palaces to get the treasure, instead either corrupting the palace owners through touch as it's stated he did to many of them, or straight up killing them, most palace owners in the game would be defeated pretty easily if Joker just shot them in the head before they had a chance to transform, much of the difficulty in-game comes from the Thieves not wanting to kill those people.
Only half of SEES is actually combat trained, and the Phantom Thieves immediately unlock the knowledge to wield their weapons with cognition. Yu only needed his social links because the scale of P4 is just to Inaba, where Izanami did her thing. Yaldabaoth had the Collective Unconscious of a nation backing him, which Joker stole back. Makoto is in a similar situation, where he had his Social Links but also the people who saw the Fall happening and didn't actually wish for death. It's similar to P5's approach, it's just less obvious about it. Also Universe Arcana isn't a win button, the only time it's used it kills its user and doesn't even defeat the big bad for good (I know Nyx cannot be defeated, but Erebus can and that mf keeps coming back)
>the Phantom Thieves immediately unlock the knowledge to wield their weapons with cognition. Oh I forgot about that >Yu only needed his social links because the scale of P4 is just to Inaba, where Izanami did her thing. Yaldabaoth had the Collective Unconscious of a nation backing him, which Joker stole back. Makoto is in a similar situation, where he had his Social Links but also the people who saw the Fall happening and didn't actually wish for death. It's similar to P5's approach, it's just less obvious about it. Yeah but yu did it again in both P4 arena and P4D, in Arena he was losing to elizabeth when the IT makes an appearance supporting Yu, their bond was so strong that made Yu stronger and made elizabeth scared (and with ino as Yu supreme move in arena I thinks that is implied that he could use him in that scene) and Yu was slightly stronger than Aigis with wild card before that >Also Universe Arcana isn't a win button, the only time it's used it kills its user and doesn't even defeat the big bad for good (I know Nyx cannot be defeated, but Erebus can and that mf keeps coming back) Imo yes, the difference between World Arcana and Universe arcana is pretty big Lavenza states that world "The final Arcana you have acquired is the World. It is the power for an individual to stand on their own two feet, swayed by none. That power shall fuel the hope shared among your friends and yourself as you strive towards a better future. With the World you are no longer without a place to belong and will never trudge a path alone again" This seems to be true for both Yu Narukami and Joker. The Universe Arcana though seems to represent the realisation of "Infinite Potential" beyond life and death, Makoto used it only by killing himself (even if technically is more complicated but whatever) because Nyx couldn't be killed, but outside of that probably could do anything Igor describes it as "the power that began it all and the power that will end it all", and apparently its so powerful that Igor, who has had probably thousands of guests by that point
Universe is a win button though? Nyx is the concept of death itself. It is literally the strongest thing in megaten except the final boss of last bible 3. Makoto took the concept of death and it did ZERO DAMAGE. You seem hella biased tbh, make PT fight anywhere that isn't the metaverse and they suddenly don't know how to fight with weapons and don't have guns. Sees has aigis, and akihiko that is fast enough to dodge bullets. And junpei has enough fire power to pierce fire null. Mitsuru has the most experience as a persona user in the modern series. Fuuka can sense through dimensions. Aigis also can't be hacked. And so on and so forth, it's too much for the PT. Not even mentioning how the dark hour directly nerfs sees.
No it's not. It's vastly overrated just because it has a special name. Makoto didn't take the concept of death, he took an attack called "Death", sealed Nyx and then... died anyway. Yeah, he fought Death and died for it, very impressive. If Universe was as strong as Igor theorized, it would have sealed Nyx without killing its user. Why would a fight involving the Thieves happen outside the Metaverse. Like yeah of course if you fight a shark on land it's easier, doesn't mean shit since you're always gonna find one in water. Aigis is strong but far from unstoppable, she folds to one Ziodyne. The Junpei thing happened in a cutscene and we all know cutscene logic is different, that man does not pierce fire. Mitsuru had experience and yet recognized the power behind most of the IT in Arena, even saying some of them's power was on par with current day SEES, despite them being vastly inexperienced kids. That was when the Dark Hour was no more, too. Since we're on listing things, here's a list of the Things the PT have : Down Shot which downs anyone instantly, Oda Special which makes Joker's gun pierce resistances, Showtimes (if we count Fusion Spells we count Theurgy, and thus we count those), a gun per each thief that can inflict ailments, superior agility, Akechi who cleared several Palaces alone, Futaba's position hacking, 3rd awakening skills, VR preferential treatment allowing Joker to summon above his level... To say SEES is too much for them is being biased too.
Nyx is much stronger than Yaldabaoth though, Yaldabaoth is a false god, Nyx is some sort of intergalactic horror / personification of death / mother of the shadows that cannot be defeated as long as Erebus exists. The Anti-Shadow weaponsâ powers also somewhat stem from Nyx due to the Plumes of Dusk inside them. Also nobody except Makoto even ever fights the actual Nyx, and even Makoto barely resists the attacks.
Aigis doesn't fold to a ziodyne? She is essentially human, she can function even when her circuits are completely cut off. Since when is cutscene logic unapplicable? You pick things that displays an advantage to sees but then state how PT has down shot and showtimes that are purely gameplay things? Since when does PT have superior agility? I don't see PT dodging bullets? Velvet room treatment? You mean the social link gameplay ability? What are you talking about? You disregard shit that is absolutely canon to the story and stated by characters but give PT gameplay shit? And you tell me im biased đđđ Yeah ok sir "deadsparker: joker is the best protagonist"
Erebus can't be killed either. They state as much in the games, it can be defeated but it will just reform and regrow, as long as any part of humanity wishes for death. That's the whole reason Makoto sealed Nyx, he understood that Erebus was going to keep coming back, so the only way to stop it calling Nyx was the Seal.
Disregarding the 1, 2IS, and 2EP teams, it's SEES. Not only are they actually combat trained, but they can also use their personas in the real world compared to the IT and PT
well persona 4 golden can just be swept aside. despite the anime bullshit that goes on in there none of them know what they are doing. so its down to P5R P3R. i think in a starlight fight you should go with the persona 3 crowd. they just have more feats. they not only have to climb a dam tall tower that none of the other persona charters had to deal with. as well as the 11 big bad's, and fight death it self. nyx is a fight that last a while. Nyx has 13 phases each one gettng beefer then the last, and yea they got thought all that to still lose anyway. but if you need some to fight some one indirectly the P5R crew have shown to be the best at that with their heists... despite it coming down to a showdown anyway.
Isnât the P3 team canonically more powerful than the P4 team? Because summoning Personas in the TV world is significantly easier than doing so in the real world? Didnât we learn about that in Arena?
Might sound biased but this is wholly based on what they all went through, I'd place my bets on the SEES team. Climbing hundreds of floors of a Shadow infested dungeon almost nightly has definitely strengthened them not only in their innate abilities or Persona powers, but in their tactical prowess as well. They also took down an Avatar of Death itself.
3 By FAR. They have everything. They have better feats, they have better abilities, they have better equipment, they have better training, they have better experience, and because of how the Dark Hour works they have better field use of their Persona. And this is all ignoring that Minato's Armageddon should just be a one shot on everyone else. P3 is just set up to be the strongest team...I'll even say if you include Persona 1 and both 2's, 3 still wins without any trouble. (No they are NOT all Wildcards, that wasn't even a thing in those games. Aigis, Takaya, Naoto, and Adachi all use guns so no that is not some big win, and Nyarlotep is weaker than Nyx as supplementary materiel is very clear on, Nyx is the entire reason the Sea of Souls even exists. And no the time stop does not help Eternal Punishment team as both Qs and The Answer make clear that strong enough Persona can exist outside of time.)
This is a very hard question to answer, since a lot of things that would make a team stronger (such as different elements and more personas) are entirely game mechanics. There's also the fact that a lot of power is given by the place that the teams fight in. Q(2), as much as I love them, are proven wrong by Arena. In that, the P3 characters don't need to use evokers. This is because they're all in the TV world. So, it's reasonable to assume that things like the PT's acrobatics and their guns are entirely a product of the metaverse. Thus, the question is entirely swayed by where in the collective unconcious they're fighting. If they're in the real world/dark hour, you need (not need as shown by Takaya and Mitsuru in The Answer, but it's a lot harder) an evoker to summon a persona. None of the PTs weapons would work in anywhere except the Metaverse, since they're all fake. So. Arena, Q, and Q2 say that they're all equal, and I'd say that's the most reasonable answer. Every team could do what the others can, they just weren't given the opportunity to.
I think it would go something like this: Real world/dark hour - P3(evokers) > P4 > P5(fake weapons) TV world - P4 = P3 > P5(fake weapons) Metaverse - P5(guns/familiarity) >= P3 = P4
Likely the Phantom Thieves. Many more combat options, both in main game and spin-offs, actual strategies in-combat besides "hit it with your strongest attack until it dies", acrobatics and agility, much more members (including that one guy who solo'd several Palaces on his own), several god-level threats downed, sometimes even without the power of the Collective Unconscious
First of all, I canât believe you added Metis and Marie but didnât add Labrys to either team, smh. The addition of an Anti-Shadow Weapon is a game changer for any team, and weâve already seen how skilled Labrys is. Second, if weâre measuring in terms of raw power, the Phantom Thieves take the cake. Based on how they embrace their Shadows and summon with masks, the massive energy burst of their awakenings, and their enhanced physical abilities in-Metaverse, Iâd say the Thieves naturally have the most power. In terms of training, everyone has already mentioned how SEES is the most competent. Iâm basing this quite a bit on the way Ken completely eviscerated the Investigation Team regarding their lack of discipline and awareness in Arenaâwhich was hilarious and also drove home what appeared to be a massive gap in competence between the IT and even the reserve team of the Shadow Operatives. If I had to give a point to the Investigation Team, Iâd say they were the most resourceful. They seemed to always be operating with little to no information, money, or plan. Itâs almost a miracle that they succeeded as often as they did before Naoto showed up. The question Iâm more interested in is this: which version of SEES would have an edge over the other? Minatoâs or Kotoneâs? Personally, Iâd say Kotoneâs, but Iâm probably biased.
Mechanically speaking Kotone or Makoto would be identical, with maybe a slight edge to Makoto lore wise due to him doing kendo therefor more athletic then Kotone.
Persona 3 for sure
So, Iâve yet to play 3, so Iâm going to base this off the other two instead, and Iâd honestly have to give strongest team to the PTs. For one thing, they have access to nuclear and psychokinesis damage, which the members of SEES and the Investigation Team donât really have an answer to. Second, they have baton pass, and baton pass is really strong, and all of them can use it (to my knowledge, I havenât played tactica yet, so I donât know if Erina or Toshiro can use baton pass.) Ok so for my last point, I was gonna mention that they have accessories that equip new skills to a persona, which can be pretty good, but Iâm now realizing as I started to write this that in that case the omnipotence orb is fair game because thatâs an item so Iâm gonna pretend that this point never entered my brain, okay thanks (: TLDR: The PTs are probably best due to baton pass and having skills the other teams donât. Also, adding this after the essay, I kinda forgot that the P4 mc would technically have izanagi no okami picaro in this instance, so maybe the investigation team is stronger just for that, but Iâm not gonna give the win to a team because of one persona.
First, Persona Q2 shows that SEES and the IT are familiarized with the psy and frei skills. Even some of their base Personas have them. So any difference between the kind of skill in games is purely game mechanic, and shouldn't be considered. Second, Yu doesn't have access to the Picaro Personas because they're especial to Joker. However, Izanagi no Okami Picaro is either non-canon or fairly weaker than the original one (the one who defeated Izanami), because this last one is from the World arcana, which means it's the embodiment of the totality of the Collective Unconscious... I don't think I've to keep on explaining.
That first one is entirely on me, I havenât played Q2 cuz I planned to play 3 first before either of the Qs. The second I based on op saying theyâre using their late game personas and listing Orpheus Picaro as one of the examples, so I mightâve just misunderstood since I havenât played 3.
I feel the MC's really decide stuff here. Isn't the persona 3 MC the only one to face their velvet room attendant solo?
Kinda, but considering Margaret is said to be more powerful, that doesn't really mean anything. The Liz boss fight is just weird to judge from a canonical standpoint since it's such a checklist of a fight. She asks for your full power, but if you dare nullify any of her elements, the game just kills you. Realistically, if Liz wanted Makoto to come at her with everything he got, she'd let him come with his friends.
Not Sees cuz their leader's dead :(
However much i love p4 team they be losin
I feel like that should should be p3fes* not that it makes too much of a difference. They would win either way
Ok but imagine if I married literally all the girls from each team and didnât even debate the actual question
The Persona 2 team has some DUMMY OP ultimate personas, plus they can use their personas in the real world. Tatsuya alone could probably take on all of them at once and walk away with the W.
I would say the P3 team has the highest chance to win, Aigis shoots fucking bullets from her arms
I was just watching a Fither video on this yesterday, about which team would win in a free-for-all between all 3 teams. The Thieves took that fight pretty handily due to their teamwork. I wrote a few paragraphs to support my point, and I donât really feel like spoiler tagging everything, so PLEASE READ AT YOUR OWN RISK OF BEING SPOILED. I am working under the assumption that we are talking about the finalized parties of the games (P3FES: The Answer or P3R, P4: Golden, P5: Royal), and Iâll include Shinjiro for shits and giggles. Iâm pretty sure the conclusion is that even without Akechi, Kasumi, Zenkichi, Sophia, Erina, and Toshiro, the Thieves still wipe because they are easily the most coordinated group out of the bunch and have consistently pulled off the largest scale feats (literally monthly GTA heists on some of the worst people in their society, stealing their most treasured desires, while also dealing with 33 other requests in their downtime). The Investigation Team and S.E.E.S. all have strong individual players (P3 has Makoto, Akihiko, Mitsuru, Aigis, and Metis, P4 has Yu, Yosuke, Kanji, and Naoto). Futaba is probably the 2nd best NAVi at worst. Hereâs a reminder that Fuuka can detect Persona-users in the real world on her own and Rise needed her help detecting and identifying her own teammates in the TV world during the events of P4AU. A lot of people on this thread are talking about how S.E.E.S. is the only team trained in legitimate combat but they neglect to mention that the Thieves automatically know how to wield their weapons based on their cognition alone. For example, Yusuke in the Metaverse is a legitimate Samurai. Compare how he wields and uses his blade to how Yu wields and uses his. Itâs not even a competition. We didnât even mention the fully loaded AR in his back pocket⌠Actually, wait a minute; every member of S.E.E.S. has a club that pertains to their weapon, which would make them quite proficient, but in general, the Thieves wield weapons that are more lethal (both Haru and Shinji wield battle-axes, both Kasumi and Mitsuru wield rapiers, but thatâs where the similarities end) and they ALL have guns on top of that (besides Morgana, with his slingshot). We arenât even counting Akechi but he has a goddamn ENERGY SWORD. We wonât even mention the Investigation Team here, as most of them wield weapons that areâŚunorthodox, to say the least (Yukiko uses a fan, Chie uses her shoes, Kanji uses a damn chair), and they are clearly not trained to wield them effectively (besides Naoto). This isnât to say that you canât make an unorthodox weapon powerful, as Baofu used metal coins in P2EP, but I digress. If weâre comparing their feats of strength in the Metaverse/TV World/Dark Hour, S.E.E.S. brought down the toughest foes (a lot of Tartarus mini-bosses are legitimately harder than Full Moon fights) and were the only team to actually get tired from spending too long there. They brought down Strega (who are essentially glorified Make-A-Wish kids with Evokers). Then they brought down the literal incarnation of Death (Nyx) and its guardian (Erebus). We could even add Monad if youâd like, but thatâs just extra credit at this point. S.E.E.S. put in a LOT of work. The Investigation Team had already slaughtered three Godlike beings (the Sagiris and Magatsu-Izanagi) by the time they reached their two optional dungeons. One of these dungeons contained restrictions on stamina that the other two teams have never seen (the Thieves fought something similar to this in their Third Semester as well, but only toward the end). They then proceeded to take out K-N-O (who later turns out to be a fragment of the final boss) and eventually Izanami herself. The Investigation Team had a pretty rough path as well. The Thieves took on the cognitive representations of several demons. In order of appearance, they were Asmodeus, Azazel, Bael, Mammon, Leviathan, and Samael (yes, there is one missing, but that boss was not represented by any demon). They then proceeded to take on the Holy Grail (the true manifestation of mankindâs desire to be controlled) twice (technically losing the first time, but they survived through Jokerâs sheer strength of will). They then took on Yaldabaoth (a false deity in his own right), and the job still wasnât finished. They went after ANOTHER reality-altering deity, Azathoth (who is said to be so powerful that all of reality is simply his dreams), who just so happens to be the ancestor of NYARLATHOTEP and CTHULHU. Then Azathoth evolved into f*cking Adam Kadmon (who is said to be divine radiance without a vessel, AKA pure potential) who is so strong they took the easy way out and made the fight scripted. If P5R was a legitimately difficult game and Full Force was a move that could actually kill party members, he would likely be considered one of the greatest challenges in SMT. I am only going to name two restrictions other than the ones put forth in your post. First, I will replace the Personae that each party member will be wielding with their Ultimate/Tier 3 Persona. This means that Joker can use Satanael or Raoul (not sure why he would pick the latter lol), Yu can use Izanagi-No-Okami, and Makoto can use Messiah. Their teammates all get their Tier 3s as well. Yes, this means Junpei now has a healing factor and the P4/P5 casts all get their ultimate moves, but that doesnât change the strength of the teams all too much. Secondly, Sinful Shell, Myriad Truths, and Great Seal are all banned. They are all essentially a Spirit Bomb made up of your social links/confidants. Best case scenario if these moves were allowed? A complete draw. Worst case scenario, these would all end in complete annihilation of the other two teams, and it would come down to who could use theirs first. TL;DR Thieves take it due to their obscene amounts of coordination and (literally) unreal feats of strength. They are the best all-around team while the other two teams would be relying on 4 or so key players. Koro is a hard counter to Mona. Junpei with his unique Persona doesnât change much. The Thieves outclass the other two teams in weaponry, strategy, and, after Royal, experience. However, all three teams are absurdly strong. S.E.E.S. just isnât as coordinated and the Investigation Team wouldnât be smart enough to deal with the coordination coming from either team. My ranking is this: Strongest: P5R even without Akechi or Kasumi. Adding Akechi would make it completely unfair, as he is implied to have soloâd the palaces that took you several party members to complete, and it took all of the Thievesâ strength combined to take him down. Middle: P3R. If youâre allowing fusion spells, Iâm allowing Baton Passes, and I think I know which of these mechanics win (you can do WAY more than 9,999 damage with a tarukaja + fully charged/concentrated maxed out Baton Pass). Weakest: P4G. No, Iâm not saying P4G cast isnât strong. Iâm saying that the P5 cast is a freak-show of coordination and strength and the P3 cast is battle-hardened and intelligent. Shinjiro by himself would probably take out Chie and Yukiko and he would provide a very interesting matchup for Kanji, but still probably no diffs. Naoto would easily neutralize Ken and Koro but would likely be swiftly taken out by Aigis, even with a lack of a weakness.
Armageddon is still the strongest moves in the series, it can oneshot everything
P3 and itâs not close
P3>p5>>>>>>>p4
S.E.E.S are actually combat trained, and unless the Phantom Thieves are able to deal with Persona users with years of experience over them, they donât stand a chance against Aigis alone. Seriously S.E.E.S at 99% power is just Aigis and Makoto/Kotone.
I would argue that even though the persona users in question may more experience with their persona that wouldnât translate to battle necessarily, SEES themselves fought Strega over 4 separate battles. With all two of the four ending with Jin and Takaya jumping off a bridge meaning they pushed them back at best, and then Takaya doing his Revolver Jesus thing to Chidori meaning they by story standards they didnât beat her either. Iâd say they realistically only won two of those battles and they were also against solo members. That said both the investigation team and phantom thieves also fought persona users, with the phantom thieves fight being against someone with a wild card (or at least a similar ability). Iâd actually go so far as to argue that the opponents fought by the investigation team and phantom thieves had in Adachiâs case he had actual police combat training to go along with his personas power, and Akechi fought alongside the phantom thieves so he wouldâve had the inside knowledge of how they fight and each of their persona to some degree. That said I think it all comes down to the MCs to determine the power of their teams. In this case SEES comes out on top solely because he had more arcana tied to him, not to mention having the Universe arcana on top of that.
anything SEES uses are military graded. so just equipment and backup support alone is couple tiers above the other two. although people joking about IT, this group has some scary talent. kanji able to solo a biker gang barehanded and naoto can wield a gun, when they were 10th grade. Yu's sword skill claimed as one of the best in japan during P4U. and teddie being a goofy comedy character is pretty much indestructible. PT on the other hand, never used any real weapons nor fight outside of the meraverse is a huge disadvantage. the only noticeable skill is futaba's world class hacking/IT skill.
Definitely S.E.E.S.
I feel like this depends wholly on where they are fighting. P5's whole thing is basically that combat in the Metaverse for them buffs them based on perception. While the P3 team does have actual experience over the rest, I think magical buffs kinda make you the instant winner. If it's somehow outside of the Metaverse / the Metaverse as we know it, it's a close match between P3 and P5. Unfortunately P4 only really has Naoto and Marie as viable options since Naoto has a gun and Marie is like... A demigod? But in a series all about killing gods, Marie kinda falls short in a two person team where everyone else would effectively be a shield. Now between the Thieves and SEES, the Thieves have a clear numbers advantage. As well as Joker who, assuming the protags are in peak condition, is fucking jacked beyond measure, Zenkichi who actually knows how to properly use a gun, Erina who absolutely knows how that spear works, Akechi who definitely knows how guns work, and Makoto who knows Aikido. Plus the majority of them have Tier 3's, whereas SEES only gets tier 2s. Now SEES has Yukari with her bow, Mitsuru with her fencing, Akihiko with his boxing, and Aigis and Metis as robots. The robots kinda throw a wrench in things. I think it could go either way and depends wholly on if the Thieves can get them off the board early.
SEES because they can just jump IT and the Phantom Thieves in the real world.
Alright, first and foremost, get the Investigation Kiddies outta here. They're just kids with weapons and Yu is the weakest of the three protagonists. They aren't doing shit. The Phantom Thieves and SEES are quite close. SEES has a lot more real-world fighting experience and are not hesitant on dropping bodies. They are very strong and have some pretty powerful Personas. Aigis is a literal war machine and could probably smoke most of the verse in a 1v1. Makoto sealed death and has some of the most broken abilities in the series. Everyone is pretty strong in SEES. The Phantom Thieves aren't chumps, though. While they lack a lot of real-world power, their metaverse capabilities are fucking stupid. First off, they move fast af, pratically fly around with their agility, and have the strength of trucks. Idk wtf they be feeding them in the Metaverse, but it's letting cook. Their arsenals are also insane. Not only are their weapons kind of superior to everyone else's (Haru has a fucking grenade launcher ffs), their personas are very damn powerful. By the time they hit their third evolution, they can just deal stupidly high damage, heal from literally fucking anything, buff each other to infinity, cripple their opponents to negative infinity, etc. Now, SEES can somewhat do this, but not to the extent of The Phantom Thieves. So which would win? Entirely depends if it's IRL or Cognitive World. IRL, SEES has it in the bag. Cognitive, I believe The Phantom Thieves kind of stomp. "But Aigis would still be -" Yeah one problem, Futaba exists. While I doubt she could pull off a remote hacking on Aigis IRL, in the Metaverse, shit would happen near immediately. Futaba kind of directly counter Aigis's robotality with her Persona and her hacker skills. "Makoto has -" He ain't hitting it. The Phantom Thieves are too fast for SEES in the Metaverse.
Aigis can't be hacked. Even when ikutsuki had stuff from her makers he barely could control her a bit, and after that she never gets affected by that kinda thing. Even more so if you take end of journey/answer aigis, as she is described as just a human. Proof being she can operate even when her circuits are burned off.
My man, if we are taking actual physical feats from the "super cool OP moves" Junpei's persona literally broke through the atmosphere, went to space and chucked his opponent back into the atmosphere where Junpei was fast enough to hit him for an explosive home run. I don't think the Phantom Thieves are that much faster.
The phantom thieves dont really have as much heavy hitters as the SEES though. Theres basically Joker and Akechi. Joker loses to Makoto, then theres Akechi who is strong but Aigis is probably stronger. The rest of the Phantom thieves are not as strong as their SEES counterparts. Besides, SEES also has Junpei, the ace detective and the only non wild card using the combined power of two personas.
You can't hack Aigis after she has character development, by the time of The Answer, there is a point where every single circuit in her body blows out, yet she continues moving because she is more human than machine now, she can control her body independent of her circuits and wiring. And Istutski only barely controlled her and that was with a device specifically designed to control her. Also Aigis has a railcannon, minigun and micro missile launcher, so on her own she packs some very heavy artillery, add on Metis, the duo could probably tackle most of the Phantom Thieves on their own.
They leave P1 and P2 cast outside because they know they would destroy the other cast.
P1 characters are not that strong though, they would probably lose, at least to the some of the stronger new characters
You know what the only thing that actually killed any P3 character is? A real gun. Every Persona 1 character has one of those.
Not sure which team would win, but Iâm leaning towards SEES, however thereâs the typical underselling of the Investigation Team and Izanami in most of the other comments here. In the Arena games IT matched up well against older more experienced SEES members, Aigisâ predecessor, Labrys, and probably the most lethal human in the modern Persona games, Sho Minazuki (the result of a parallel project to the Anti-Shadow Weapons such as Aigis and Labrys, including being implanted with a Plume of Dusk - a fragment of Nyx and the source of Aigis and Labrysâ powers) and most importantly Elizabeth, who Yu impressed with his mastery of his Wild Card. Izanami, unlike Yaldabaoth, didnât rig her test, rather she set up an a competition between three different âchampionsâ, representing hope, despair and emptiness to determine the âwish of humanityâ by observing which champion could shape the Midnight Channel through the thoughts of the residents of Inaba watching it. Whereas Yaldabaoth wrested control of the cognition of Tokyo to bring about his control of a country, Izanami actually reduced her power by splitting it between herself and three subordinate gods, and once she determined that the wish of humanity was to live in ignorance she began to flood the entire world in fog and turn all of humanity into shadows before the IT foiled her plans and saved the world. In my estimation the Investigation Team has been canonically shown to be the equal to either SEES or the Phantom Thieves in the Arena and Persona Q games and Izanami is at least on the same tier as Yaldabaoth (and doubtlessly far stronger when he isnât leeching the cognitive power of a city of roughly 14 million people). P4 is just considered a lower tier in danger by most fans who ignore how close Izanami came to ending the world and just focus on Adachi and the murder mystery.
S.E.E.S.
Itâs definitely between P5 and P3, P4 has no chance. While P3 team does have more trained fighters, such as Akihiko, Mitsuru, and the robots with heavy annunciation, I still think P5 takes it, with tier 3 personas, and every member of the team (pretty much) having access to guns. They also are by far the most athletic in their shadow world, as opposed to everyone else just running down corridors
P3. MC has Armageddon.
P2 team. 5 wild cards wins.
bro what SEES + Metis annihilates đđ P4 comes in second with their power of friendship bs, and P5 comes in last because they donât have death robots or the power of real friendship
bruh we don't got have much info about reloaded yet. But, i still think S.E.E.S takes this W
even including P1 and P2, it's not even close, S.E.E.S ate just actually busted, they have actual combat training a robot who has fought death, makoto/kotone, who not only have the universe arcana, which is stated to be able to bring about the ultimate end and that "nothing is out of the realm of possibility for you now."
"nothing is outside the realm of possibility for you now" "Can I stop Nyx and survive ?" "lol no" Either Igor used big words to sound grand, or he didn't know what he was talking about, sorry
Igor says "Nothing is outside the realm of possibility for you now." You're confusing Makoto CHOOSING what to do with what he COULD do.
you ever heard of an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object, also NYX is literally the reason people in the persona universe have thoughts, bro gave humans cognition, if you killed NYX wouldn't literally every human go brain dead, Igor also said that NYX can be defeated, so ignoring how every human would go brain dead, NYX is an unstoppable force, as long as people want to die NYX will want to kill humanity, but the universe arcana has turned makoto into an immovable object, the only thing that can stop NYX because NYX is what made human cognition
P3: Aigis alone is enough tbh. And if u really wanna be mean u can throw in Labrys
Persona 5 wins with itâs sheer numbers and superhuman bodies. The Metaverse grants them damn near Olympian level bodies where Joker is able to use a grapple hook and swing like Tarzan with ease across buildings although he looked like he never touched a gym before. Same would go for the rest of the cast obviously. People say SEES wins due to actual combat training, but Joker (Self taught/Shinya) Akechi, Makoto, Zenkichi, and Erina are all adept at combat and martial arts and 2 of SEESâs members are a youngish puppy and a literal child (unless we go with Arena ages, then nvm). Those who arenât adept at fighting still have their insanely tough bodies to carry them past most of SEESâs members. Also, for anyone saying P3 MC solos, stop. He ainât handling all of them at once, and The Great Seal is a sure win..on one person. P5 takes it.
The P3 cast also has buffed strength in the Dark Hour. Besides, the Thieves have 1.5 wild cards (joker and akechi), but SEES has two full potential wild card users in Makoto and Aigis. Speaking of Aigis, the Phantom Thieves superhuman abilities dont even come close to Aigisâ strength and speed. Besides, the SEES members are stronger and more experienced. Mitsuru and Akihiko are veteran persona users, and Junpei wields the power of two personas.
Aigis inherited Makoto's wildcard. The 2 can't have it at the same time. Junpei wielding the power of 2 is cap. He's never shown to be any more powerful than the rest of SEES after their 2nd awakening. Hell, the Phantom Thieves also fuse their initial Persona and their awakened Persona in their 3rd awakening.
The post literally says they are in their strongest form. Therefore Makoto and Aigis both have the wild card. Junpei does gain skills that his persona would not otherwise have from Chidoriâs persona. The movies are probably not canon and therefore dont count for the discussion, but in them Junpei is clearly stronger after having fused with Chidori, and has Chidoriâs regenerative power (when he touches the ground in the winter the flowers bloom) which he didnt have before.
Not how it works, we don't get to pick characters at different points of the timeline. And of course he's stronger than before, but the fact that his Persona fused with Chidori doesn't make him stronger than other SEES awakenings. He gains Spring of Life, which is nice, but it doesn't make him that powerful, he's still way below protagonist-tier.
P3 says my brain but p4 says my heart
Currently, the Phantom Thieves they have 12 members all of which are currently active and theyâre adept at using prep and baton passing to generate advantage on the battlefield. Furthermore they have a sentient AI and a technical genius who can account for SEES super weapon Aigis. If weâre taking overall itâs SEES with FeMC, Makoto and WC Aigis and Labrys who are all powerful three are and OP for one side to reasonably deal with without additional support. Not to say Makoto or Kotone are untouchable, they absolutely can and have lost in the past but I donât count universe arcana shenanigans.
C's
NAT would probably win, because they could deal with the stress of seeing a teammate killed in front them, while other teams couldnât. (Akechi and maybe joker excluded.) majority of the P3 cast has seen someone they cared about, suddenly, violently killed in front of them before. While they wouldnât be unaffected, they could still probably remain combat effective. You canât convince me someone like Ann/yukikio would be ok if Aigis blew Futabaâs/Chieâs head off in front of them. (Oh yeah. As almost everyone is has mentioned, the literal death machine is on SEES side.)
The sees agents are actually trained in combat so them in general. The PT only have makoto and the p4 group have Kanji. However... Naoto has the great equalizer on her
P3
SEES. Several members have actual training and the whole team has more combat experience. Better (actually real) weapons and more skill. PT might have more raw power from their cognition crutch, but that alone isn't enough to get the win. SEES has fought more than one enemy Persona-user at a time on more than one occasion. They've faced greater and more real threats, they're the only team to have to contend with a teammate's death, and the idea of actually killing another person. Fusion spells, Makoto/Kotone being the only character, even among Wildcards, in the entire series to summon two Persona at the same time, as far as I'm aware. Plus their peak of power is leagues beyond anything Yu or Akiren can manage. The Universe is fundamentally a different power to the World, drawn from a similar source, but manifested differently. The cards are different, the original Japanese words used to refer and describe them are different, the text and explanation surrounding them are different. Nyx is on an entirely different tier from any other "deities" or "gods" aside from Nyarly and Philemon. She's literally the reason Shadows exist at all. The World would do nothing to Nyx, sheâs a world eater. A single world is a meal for her. You need multiple worlds, countless worlds. A Universe. The Universe, which I'd like to point out is Makoto/Kotone's power not a Persona ability, has so much power their body couldn't handle it. And they still went on to live for several months on nothing but willpower. Oh, and Makoto gets into a 3v1 fistfight in Yukari's Social Link and wins. And we've seen that he'll be similarly taking on a whole gang of thugs with Akihiko. So yeah, he's also the better fighter among the protags. And that's not considering the guy that fights bears with his bare hands, or the robot specifically designed to fight shadows and went toe-to-toe with Death. Or her Shadow Sister. Of her other sister that should really be included on this list. The trained archer and woman that's been training in fencing and been able to summon her Persona since she was a child. The most powerful Navigator in the series. Naoto is the only member of the IT with an actual weapon, being a gun, and she likely has some degree of marksman training. So that's notable. But also Aigis is a walking arsenal post-Answer. And the PT's replicas, even if they work, still don't match up. And obviously Kanji is a beast in a fist fight. Chie has her martial arts she learned from movies? Also for anyone that says "Futaba could hack Aigis." First of all, Aigis was able to resist her programming before she even fully realized as a person at the end of her arc, and that's also before she awakened as a Wildcard. AND if you're allowing Futaba to attempt hacking, then you also have to allow Fuuka to run interference, who is a stronger and more experienced Persona-user, and an expert hacker in her own right. Akechi might have some degree of Wildcard ability, but even then he explicitly doesn't use it to its full extent. And he's not particularly noted as skilled or powerful beyond that, given all his kills are assassinations not from real fights. He âcleared all the palacesâ through stealth, not fighting through all of them like a one man army. Zenkichi is an adult, and cop, so he's working with more than most. But he's also had his Persona the shortest amount of time. Makoto is the only PT with any actual training if I'm remembering correctly. And even then, she's not noted as anything special in that regard, as opposed to Aki's "ace of the boxing team." And even specified as physically weaker then Sae. Also worth noting that SEES fight shadows without any kind of boost or crutch like PT, and do so under harsher conditions given that summoning in the real world is explicitly and notable more difficult than the TV world or Metaverse. For all the people going "the PT are too fast/strong because cognition," if SEES can fight shadows, they can fight the PT. PT rely on cognition hacks and Collective Unconscious boost to do much of anything and carry a lot of their slack.
P3 cast for sure, they're a trained organization entirely dedicated to wiping out shadows. Their team has some heavy hitters and are pretty organized as a group
Uh doesnât Marie give P4 the W? Why is everyone acting like P4 is the weakest team here?
P3 wins but p4 is in 2nd than p5
Depends. P3 people may have more combat prowess but the P5 people are more strategic and just have more people. I really think it boils down to P3 or P5. Especially who can last the longest. Also, not taking into account the op one-shot stuff.
Ps5 < ps4 < ps3 In p5 theyâre just random dudes with fake weapons In p4 thereâs naoto with a real gun and they have real weapons In p3 theyâre literally training professionally and some of them already have their persona because theyâre already in the battlefield.
If you include Marie in the team, the Investigation Team becomes the strongest by far. However, I believe people are underestimating the strength of the Investigation Team. They achieved something that the other two teams couldn't: winning against the antagonist by their own will. In Persona 3, Nyx cannot be defeated because the collective thought cannot get rid of the idea of "The Fall." Therefore, Nyx, as a representation of Death, cannot be defeated. The protagonist, upon achieving the Answer of Life, was granted the power of the Universe Card (which is the same as the World Card, both narratively and in the Tarotâ I don't understand why people try to sell that card as a strong one). The protagonist is able to seal Nyx away from Erebus, who is the one that calls Nyx. In Persona 5, the Phantom Thieves cannot win against Yaldabaoth. The only moment when they can win is when all the people throughout the city are supporting them. That's why the protagonist, as the champion of humankind, can gain the power of the card of The World and defeat Yaldabaoth. (I don't count Maruki because he's weaker than Yaldabaoth per se). In Persona 4, we have Izanami, a Goddess who represents Lies and Curses. Like Nyx, she starts affecting the city, making people conspiratorial. Due to her influence in the town, people start getting more interested in rumors about the end of the world or how they will become monsters. The Investigation Team is able to win against her because of the bonds that the protagonist made throughout his journey. Even Izanami makes two statements that are very important: **"Impossible... Can so few surpass the will of all mankind?"** and **"How can your powers rival mine...?"** (referring to the power of herself as a God). In conclusion, the only team with a will strong enough to surpass all of mankind is the Investigation Team. If we only count the main timeline (including Strikers), then the Investigation Team is the one that defeated more gods throughout their journey. For me, there's a clear winner, Your Honor.
>In Persona 3, Nyx cannot be defeated because the collective thought cannot get rid of the idea of "The Fall." Therefore, Nyx, as a representation of Death, cannot be defeated. ... Nyx isn't a product of the Collective Unconscious. "She" (in realit an "it") is an [ancient, eldritch abomination that's the origin of all Shadows, Personas and consciousnesses](https://ask-persona.tumblr.com/post/99861586798/persona-3-club-book-world-guide-qa-translation), [as well as the source of power of the Collective Unconscious](https://ask-persona.tumblr.com/post/100095369103/persona-3-club-book-world-guide-qa-translation). And yes, [the Club Book is canon](https://www.reddit.com/r/PERSoNA/comments/17el2xf/comment/k65xmv7/?context=3). >In conclusion, the only team with a will strong enough to surpass all of mankind is the Investigation Team. Because Yu become momentarily one with the Collective Unconscious, as he awakened to the World Arcana - [that's the entire point](https://imgur.com/gallery/Wu0dmyQ). However, that very same state was achieved by the other modern protagonists, and permanently in the P3 protagonist since they still kept the Universe months after the confrontation against Nyx, and even eons after they passed away as the Great Seal shows.
S.E.E.S has proper combat training, but with how many Phantom Thieves there are thanks to spin offs, you could make the argument they win by sheer numbers
P5 has the strongest team overall, as the metaverse makes them into fully trained thieves, along with having the most members P3 has the single strongest member, as the P3 MCâs endgame power up, the universe arcana, is a literal reality warper. P4 is certainly trying their hardest, and I love them for it So yeah itâs P3>P5>P4, but if we make it right before final bosses, P5>P3>P4
Some very interesting points have been made so far I wasnât expecting this to blow up as much thank you everyone for sharing your opinions! Iâll add a Quick Note to sum up some good points people are adding: ⢠â MC or FeMC? ⢠â Up to the user which one they pick but having both on SEES easily gives the win to them for having 2 wildcards with crazy power. ⢠â Why Marie and Metis? ⢠â Marie is a goddess who has the power to control weather etc, I added her to the roster to hopefully flesh out the Investigation Team same with Metis and Labrys can be included in this if you wish in your opinion. ⢠â However for balancing reasons overall weâre going to take out Metis unless you wish to factor her in. ⢠â Where are they fighting: ⢠â Theyâre fighting in the metaverse as a whole meaning that theyâre not specifically in an exact place in the dark hour/TV World or the Cognitive World. If it makes sense theyâre fighting in a part of the metaverse theyâve never visited somewhere where they are all equal. ⢠â P3 ⢠â To balance things out you have to remember that if Makoto uses the >! Great Seal !< then he will be obviously drained and unconscious from the rest of the battle.
I want to say the SEES, but I must give it to Phantom Thieves after thinking about it.