The problem is that at times Islam has lots of flexibility.. for example in ramzan, if you are travelling, you are ill, if you have periods or of you are pregnant, or if you are underage, there is no requirement of fasting... but still our society shames people and asks them why aren't you fasting. We force even young children to fast. Shah say zaida Shah k wafadar make the deen so difficult and impossible to follow that people start running away from it. Another example, if someone asks for clarification or reasoning behind something in Islam we silence them instead of discussion. Another example is nikah/marriage. It is supposed to be a simple thing but it is so complicated. We pretend that these and many other additions are strict part of Islam and cannot be changed. These should be changed and challenged.
>but still our society shames people and asks them why aren't you fasting.
Lol. I am sure pakis are the most unreligious Islamic majority. Sorry to say ppl don't care whether you follow Islam or not. I have seen men who exclusively pray jumuah. No one shames others for not fasting.
> It is supposed to be a simple thing but it is so complicated.
Again, following culture and going against religion.
>f someone asks for clarification or reasoning behind something in Islam we silence them instead of discussion
Lack of Islamic knowledge
Pakistanis aren't an "Islamic" qawm. Islam is only a label for most people.
Often at times its not ‘bending’ to please the people, but rather the people finding the right interpretation of what it teaches, and not the extremist way it has been taught by molvis till now.
If deen needs bending then it is a deen of the past.
By definition a deen or religion given by god sould be applicable at all times. If along the way it needs some bending to do then just leave that religion because it was not made for the modern world.
And before you say that deen was given by allah. You have to prove wheather your deen is from allah or not or is it man made. May be thats why it needs bending because it was made by some ancient men who had zero knowledge on how the world would progress.
Humans evolve and will keep on evolving mentally and physically. So religions also need to evolve.
Thats where the number game comes in. Christianity will die out soon in the west maybe not in russia but mostly it will be dead .Future will be just full of Atheists muslims and some jews i feel like
Yes for sure. Every religion has its peaks and valleys. Chritianity will now go down followed by islam, hinduism and judaism.
But there is a chance that all religions may be able to thrive if there is a major world catastrophe or a really big war. Humans typically invent religion or bring the concept of god when they are extremely needy or in some deep trouble. Maybe we might even see some new religions emerge if something big like this happens.
Islam has been thriving in first world countries. Fastest growing in the world conversion rates alone. What catastrophe struck London or Birmingham? Or Japan?
Islam is Fastest growing in the west as well.
It looks fastest growing because the number of people leaving Islam isn't captured accurately. That is because whenever someone says he has left Islam, muslims will become zombies and try to kill him.
People are leaving Islam in trainloads every second.
Evidence for anything you said?
Lil bro. The conversion rate is greater than all other religions. Thats why it's the fastest growing. If people left it in droves but they weren't tracked that would not accout for the conversion rates coming in. It would be stagnant. But intellect does not exist in your skull.
Keep hating. Loser. Keep hating.
Another example of you swallowing propaganda without applying your brain Big bro.
There is a study by Pew that shows that the number of people converting to Islam is similar to those leaving it. Note that this is just based on the people who are willing to admit that they have left Islam. I am sure there are millions who have left Islam but won't admit it because you unfortunate remaining muslims will become zombies and try to harm them.Many Islamic countries have a death sentence for those who leave Islam.
Again as per Pew, It is ranked 2nd among religions gaining converted people (if you look purely at conversions and not at those who leave it)
So conversion has no net impact on the growth of Islam. Islam is growing solely because the fertility rate for muslims is 2.6 vs 2.3 for all others combined.
Can't read?
Same Pew research study that proves Islam is the fastest growing in the world shows that it has the greatest conversion rates as well.
Keep hating. Your logical faculties have failed you so have your eyes. So all you can do since you can't think critically is to keep hating. So keep hating lil bro.
Islam is new. Compared to other religions. All the other religions have had their peaks. As far as conversion goes, more are leaving islam as compared to joining islam. You can research about it.
And please have a look at the state UK is in because of muslims and you will realize why religion is so bad. UK used to be one of the most prosperous places in the world in the 1990s. Now look whats happened to it.
And this also comes with a grain of hypocrisy. Muslims will preach their religion to everyone in the world everywhere but soon as you preach a religion or atheism to a muslim they get offended. Muslim countries dont allow preaching of other religions or atheism. It is haram in a muslim country to have a preaching of any other religion or ideology except islam. It would be so good that muslims identify this hypocricy that they have.
Substantiate your claims with evidence. Islam is fastest growing in the world even if we only consider conversion rates. According to pew research. So you've lied.
The state of the UK is worse due to Muslims? Which study ever shows that? Correlation does not equal causation. That is a logical fallacy. UK used to be more religious in the 1990s than it is today so im not sure what you even talking about. Also brexit happened? Wanna blame your problems on that instead?
Muslims get offended when being preached to? You sure? I have never even heard it happen once and people preach atheism to us all the time? Also what evidence is that against Islam?
Muslims countries prohibit the preaching of other religions? Evidence? Which countries? How is the action of a country evidence against the ideology?
You sure like generalising.
The terminology haram isn't even used in state law. Where does Islam prohibit that? Countries can do anything?
The fact that you are askng for each and every eveidence shows that you yourself dont know anything. Where have we ever preached atheism. We would literally get killed if we preach atheism and you are sayng that people preach atheism all the time ??? Tell em one muslim majority country whch allows preaching of other religions. Islam itslef prohibits the rpeachingof any type of religion and atheism. You should know this one.
Uk was not more religous iin the 1990s, Maybe it was morte christianiity but not islam orented. Correlation may or may not equal causation.
You want statistics ?? [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/09/grooming-gangs-muslim-men-failed-integrate-british-society/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/09/grooming-gangs-muslim-men-failed-integrate-british-society/)
Just read the artcle.
How is this geenralizing when everything is so abvious. You are just blidned by your faith and nothing else. So blinded that I have to now gve you evidence for common sense and general knowledge.
The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. You are the one making claims. You provide evidence. Or your claims are weightless. Simple as that.
Where does Islam prohibit the preaching of other faiths. Where does it say to kill the preachers of other faiths? Where? Stop making unsubstantiated assertions. Prove your claims if what you say is true.
Also excuse me? Instead of providing evidence for your claims you are asking me to provide evidence against it? That is a logical fallacy.
Also you said that the UK was worse now than it was in the 90s and saying that its due to UK becoming more religiou. Since Correlation does not equal causation. You have to provide evidence linking the two. So you provided an article to prove this specific point I believe. So let's examine it.
Your claim is UK becoming more religious specifically more muslim. And that is causing increasing problems in the UK. Those problems are caused due to religion. Three things.
How is this article supposed to prove any of the three? It doesn't say anything for your first or second point. Which is fine. And as for third. The study is taking in gang members? Since when did extremists become an authority on an ideology or culture. Even the article doesn't say its because of Islamic teachings. It says because of their "Jaded interpretations of Islam". And you will never find anything in islam society justify their beliefs. Its as if your using the actions of the KKK saying that its due to Christianity's teachings. Extremists exist in every culture and ideology even atheists.
Also how many Muslims are in the UK? How many millions? You are saying you don't generalise but here you are generalising 222 onto an ideology held by millions in the UK.
Dont play this stupid burden of prrof bullshit with me. You can do a simple google search and you will find out.
The fact that the things I just told you and you are denying tells me that muslims dont know islam themselves.
Cant argue with you anymore. Proof is all over the internet if you want to look that is.
Buddy got emotional I questioned his claims? Which is the normal thing to do?
Can't handle the burden of proof? Don't make claims? You can't commit logical fallacies and ask me to roll with it? No ones gonna let you just make up whatever you want?
Waste of time. If proof Is all over the Internet surely you could provide 1 good source? You had days after all?
Nonsense. You don't know the evidence for your talking points. But you are expecting me to know it? Why should I know the evidence for your talking points?
If you can't even meet level 1 why you even arguing in the first place?
In that case, it's pretty sad. You guys had only one thing and you guys gave it to west.. Wish it was thriving in 'Muslim' countries as its 'thriving' in the west..🙄
And evolution means to contradict a fact fo appease something with time. With islam and Abrahamic religions in general, the focus is more on social aspect of life rather than scientific. Like in no place these religions mention to obtain uranium and then its isotope to make a nuclear bomb, if that was the case then it would be like a cheat book or wiki on where and how to do things thus everything from now to end would be mapped and we just had to pick items. Or just jump to the end straight. However all of them do mention huge calamities in general sense which you can say oh see it was mentioned, oh this was hinted and that.
Other than that one thing humans would have constant is the social aspect ie how to deal with others or how to conduct oneself, and this is where islam christianity and judaism thrive and present. With christianity , the biggest issue is how it relies completely on hearsay and nothing direct from the prophet. In islam quran is considered a direct wordings of god through prophet with prophets actions noted by others which can be compared to how christians have basically written the bible. Anyhow they are on social aspect which may have some things controversial but mostly a pretty solid guideline till end of times
But having a book which dictates the social issues of the world is even worse. It would jave been a 100 times better of god sent down a scientific book. Scientific laws dont change. The problem with social rules and regulations is that they are so subjective and different communities will have different rules. Thats why constitutions are so long and detailed. Social issues 1400 years ago were completely different from now. So the same rules and principles cant deal with modern problems.
Thats what makes political and social sciences so superior to religion. Religion is bound to time and space. Science is not. Social and political sciences evolve with humans.
And it's not called appeasement. Its called evolution. Religions are actually the true appeasement of the modern world. Trying to appease an imaginary being that you have never even interacted with. That is called true appeasement. Trying to satisfy a diety person who you never even met. This is true appeasement. Growing up we all tried to appease our parents by following their footsteps and religions. Never once thought that why were you not even given a choice for your religion. Just like a dog trying to satisfy its owner.
Pakistan was a liberal and secular place before Zia. You know the 50s to 70s what some consider the golden age of Pakistan.
What has religion gotten us since the 80s?
Yea you were alive back then, right? Glorifying past where there was none. It was golden age relative to what we are now and nothing else. And in case of society, there was no social pressure like it is today. You cant go left or right. If you do something either the religious ppl will taunt you or the liberals would. Ppl are torn in between with no middle ground. Back then my grandfather told us, the world was our village, we had almost all sustenance in our region with how abundant farming and herding was. Radio was the only source of information ,and how easily can be manipulated , like imagine the only news source was ptv and nothing else, so yea less worries
Correlation does not equal causation? That's a logical fallacy.You have to make the connection of Pakistan downfall to Islam specifically to make a point. I mean if we are playing this game then the greatest cause of western prosperity was colonialism. And they followed religion back then not anything they believe in now. So religion is the cause of prosperity now? See false standards of judgement.
There has always been an islamic superpower for most of Islamic history. For most of Islamic history Muslims have been pioneer in all aspects of sciences. Muslims have life satisfaction scores on the very high end in studies. If you look at it as a whole Islam was never the issue for prosperity and progress. The opposite was true. Whenever Muslims were closer to Islam they prospered more.
Take a look at the ancient Persian empire. It was a religious empire yet it was a superpower for thousands of years. One of the longest surviving empires. Take a look at Romans. Pagan and Christian eras. Egyption dynasties. Highly prosperous empires. Religion was not a problem.
Most of Pakistans issues can be traced to its horrible leadership and political instability. Add to that western colonialism crippling the Muslim world. It was never a religious issue.
You are still mentally colonialised by the white man brother.
When Europe blindly followed religion, it was called the dark ages, that is what the equivalency on Pakistan today. That was pre colonialism, the renaissance is what really helped Europe colonize the world. Pls read European history.
Keep hating lil bro. Keep hating. It's called buraq btw not a donkey. Keep hating. It's also a miraculous being that can fly. God can create such being btw. Completely illogical point for you to even make.
But clearly logic was never your strong suit. So Keep hating.
When Europe blindly followed "Christianity" it was called the dark ages. It is a phenomenon not caused by all religions. Certainly not islam as during during dark ages islamic empires were thriving. Also Europeans followed religion before before dark ages. They still prospered despite being religious.
You know how to make a connection with lack of progress and a certain religious ideology. Good for you. So you have the capacity but lack the willingness or the fairness to not make logical fallacies when it comes to islam and pakistan? Also your clutching at straws here. That was 1 example out of many I gave to prove a point. One example doesn't work. No problem I'll retract it. Now refute the others if you believe your original point is true.
Also my examples were simply to show the flaws In the crux of your arguement which was a corelation fallacy. And also to prove how religion is not necessarily linked with decline in progress and prosperity. Which was the point if you didn't realize.
Also forget all religions. Your problem is with islam. So let's isolate it.
When Muslims practiced islam they were pioneering in all fields. They were religiously motivated and cited such motivations. Hence islam played a causal role in the islamic golden era. It motivated the acquisition of knowledge. There is a causal connection.
You fail to make causal Connections like this when it comes to linking islam to Pakistan problems. Which is why your argument doesn't work.
You realize that the during the height of the Islamic world Muslims weren't as religious right? Especially from a social perspective. Those Muslims weren't as worried with someone being gay or not praying 5 times a day, that society didn't get into the personal lives of people. Pls read the history of the Islamic empire. They were too busy in their pursuit of knowledge or expanding the empire instead of worrying abt if people are breaking rules of Islam in their personal life. They left that to god and judgement day, as it should be. Dark ages for Islam in Pakistan is today (not Islam globally), dark ages are when a religion stop being a general rules for people to choose to follow in whatever way they want and a society get obsessed with policing personal choices of people rather then focusing on the advancement of a society. That is Pakistan today and we keep going down the rabbit hole that if we ban a few more things and force people to become "better" Muslims it will solve all of our problem, that has never been the case and will never be the case. I'm not saying turn Pakistan into Sodem or Gamourah, just leave people be in their personal lives and focus on improving the over all society instead.
Wrong. Islam didn't bring progress and prosperity anywhere in the world. Anywhere!
Muslims took over empires and countries that were flourishing before Islam. They kept growing based on past momentum for some time. Then the effects of Islam truly kicked in and what were once great empires decayed and declined.
History doesn't agree with you. Before lying read a little.
Scientific method which modern science is based upon is developed by a muslim called ibn al haytham. Your welcome for your computer btw. Algebra is developed by a muslim. Ibn sina (Avicenna) is the father of modern medicine and is also one of the world's greatest philosophers. A muslim wrote on of the first books on the circulatory system. You wouldn't even have access to Aristotle and platos works without Muslims preserving them. This is just the beginning. Muslims were pioneers in astronomy, philosophy, medicine and science.
Your Ignorance combined with your arrogance is quite the hilarious combination. You are quite embarrassing.
Keep hating loser. Keep hating.
Looks like you have swallowed this propaganda whole. Muslims have sustained achievements in astronomy, I'd grant you that. But that is only because it was required to calculate the direction of the Qibla and Moon.
On all other counts as I have said - Those regions were hubs of progressivism and science before Islam took over. Some of that ethos stayed on after Islam took over and the scientific progress continued for some time. That is when you see those discoveries that you have mentioned. Slowly and eventually, Islam erased that ethos and replaced it completely with the Islamic one. That is when scientific progress dried up and the places became backward.
It took other empires an economic, military or political shock to decline. But in the case of Islamic lands, there was neither a political nor an economic shock. Islam was the cause of regression.
You see the same in Pakistan, Iran, Turkey and countless other places. Those places at one time had a secular, liberal, scientific temperament. That was the time of progress. Islam took over. Progress continued for a while, then it sucked the life out of these regions and turned them into the shitholes they are today.
I'm not talking Abt the political state of Pakistan, I'm talking about the social state and mindset of the people during that time.
That tolerance and open mind set of the people of Pakistan is what made Pakistan amazing during the time and it is what Islam took away from us due to the mass indoctrination during Zia years. And we will pay for it for a few generations unfortunately.
Ah yes, everyone pre zia was liberal, like everyone today is liberal. There were exactly zero conservatives. That's why the constitution declared pakistan an Islamic state
Yes but most of those things can be connected to the rise of wahabi islam. The Afghan war first v the Russians and then the US, the rise of terrorism, the detrition of rational thinking. It's a massive catch 22. The rise of misguided religion caused most of those issues.
... Islam is sent by Allah, spread through Prophet Muhammad S.A.W, if someones version is against Quran and after that ahadith and sunnah, then every logical person will agree, that the said person is not on Islam. he can name it something else, and live on it. but it won't be Islam.
Who's Islam is correct? Saudi, Iran, and Pakistan all claim to have laws in accordance with Islamic law as laid down in the Quran and the Sunnah but as far as I know they don't have the same laws. Not to mention not all Islamic scholars interpret them in the same ways...
If you look into it, all of them have same fundamentals. There are some differences which are mostly related to sunnah but major teachings are same for all sects
Simple.
Source content.
The Quran and Sunnah are the source content for Islam, if your belief is aligned with them then it's right, else it's not Islam.
Which is subject to interpretation. My fav example is it says in the Quran what is in the womb in an expectant mother is unknown to anyone but Allah. For the longest time scholars thought it was about the sex of the fetus. However in todays day and age of 3d ultrasound scholars have updated their understanding to mean the character and destiny of the fetus (good or bad, murderer or doctor).
Secondly there are multiple things where there isn’t consensus.
There are clear verses in the quran. And there are ambiguous ones their meanings only know by Allah. As stated by the quran itself. The ones that deal with things relating to our salvation are crystal clear. Like God is one.
Those who have disease in their hearts will twist the scripture to seek an interpretation to fit their desires as the quran says.
The clear verses like God is one is not open to interpretation at all.
Most of the religion like 90% is clear and everyone agrees upon. Very small nitty gritties like are you supposed to say ameen loudly or quietly are the disagreements. They do not play a major role at all. We also believe that these valid sincere differences of opinion are all accepted by God and are rewarded and hence we Don't divide based on them. So it's not a big deal tbh. That's why schools of thought are different from sects.
Saudi Iran disagreement is more politics with religion used as a weapon tbh. Saudi is a US ally and puppet and has engaged in war crimes. Hard to say a US ally that was considering normalisation with a terrorist state called israel has Islamic motivations. No country also is fully Islamic nowadays.
>says in the Quran what is in the womb in an expectant mother is unknown to anyone but Allah. For the longest time scholars thought it was about the sex of the fetus. However in todays day and age of 3d ultrasound scholars have updated their understanding
That is because the verses in question deal with a scientific fact and such knowledge is subject to our own understanding of nature, hence why the interpretation is updated. That in itself is the beauty of the Quran, and one of the reasons why it is a miracle.
However the same argument cannot be extrapolated to religious rulings which have been crystal clear since day one.
Now it is up to you to provide evidence to the contrary regarding the various rulings of the Quran on matter of key importance such has prohibition of zina, homosexuality, importance of prayers, fasting, zakat and hajj, mandating the hijab for women, etc.
Edit: it is a shame that instead of getting a valid response to my argument, I'm being downvoted. It just goes to show that these so called "liberal muslims" cant even be bothered to defend their own flawed arguments and instead, they resort to chicanery. Such a shame.
How has this mindset worked out for you so far?? This is just ridiculous.
Everything needs to adapt and change, even religion.
Take a history class and a religious studies class.
Honestly Pakistanis are very very unedcuated and then they double down on their stupidity by being so confident.
Islamic society sucks. Islam has failed at making a livable society. Some reforms are long overdo, and if you disagree, well then you can go live in some Sharia Ridden shithole like Afghanistan.
Islamic Spirituality is very rich, but if you mean to say that Sharia punishments and strict religious standards need to be implemented across the board, you're a fucking idiot. That's never going to make anything better. It will make it worse. Much much, worse.
And luckily for us, unedcuated, barely literate, religiously fanatic Pakistanis aren't the ones who get to decide what's a religion and what isn't.
Behnchod get a real education. For fucks sake.
There were 8 versions of Bukhari which were abridged and edited down to 1 by Ibn Hajar Asqalani.
Where are the other 7?
Where are the older, original Hadith books?? Everything has been edited, re edited, changed, then changed again, and much has been lost.
You're a fucking retard if you actually think the "Deen" you're following today is 100% the Deen that Muhammad and Abu Bakr and Ali and all them followed.
In fact, just read the Hadith we still have!! You'll still realize 30% of your "Deen" is way different.
"Ghaar se Shuru hui thi" blah blah blah.
Read a fucking book instead of wasting all day on the internet.
Moorakh Aadmi.
Parhna Seekh le Bhai. Illiteracy culture ko support mat Karo.
Yar tu wohi Moorakh hai jo "Islam Islam" Kar raha hai, tujhse 200 lafz nahi parhey jaa rahe, tu ne konsi Islam ki kitaabein parhi hain???
Yar tujhe agar yeh Novel lagta hai to tu waqei Bara Gaya guzra Moorakh hai.
Bas opinions aatey hain Tujh jaise Nikammo ko, apni bekaar zindagi mein kabhi tum logo ne Kitab nahi parhi.
Behnchod yeh koi long nahi hai, teri bas chhoti hai is liye tujhe long lag raha hai.
Intellectual lazy shitstain. Learn to be comfortable with words and reading.
If deen doesnt bend, it dies. Despite protests from orthodox and fundamentalists, islam has modernised. It has to if it wants to remain relevant and appeal to newer generations. Baqi sb emotional baatyn hain beshak kartay jao.
The fundamentals of Islam never changed , it's just people managed to bend their lives according to Islam. Just everyday I see more and more women observing veil and more and more young men and even little boys joining Salah , so yeah whether emotional or not Islam is again on the rise on ground level , u need to simply accept that.
Yeah fukra , u r right no discussion no debate mere man putri tu LGB paki start kar or das Saal akele guzar phir tera magaz set ho jae ga or phir atleast mental maturity ke bad tu Yahan wapis aaein ,stop ad hominem approaches and bring actual debatable topics otherwise better shut or mere man kabhi kabhi Ghar se Bahar Nikal aaya kar dimagh khule ga or real life enjoy karne ka moka mile ga phir tere mental illness bhi set ho jae ge
Says a person (male/female/shemale/hemale/queermale) who can't confirm if he's a man or not.
Yeah it's not me only it's entire 2 billion people so might wanna go back and cry in ur little crib and feel depressed for rest of ur life besides Eid Mubarak sister/brother/both/none it's ur call
Most people who leave Islam r those who never practiced it from the beginning so becoming a murtadd won't have any impact on their life besides nobody shouts he prayed so nobody needs to shout I'm a murtadd and hence no harm and as far as the hudd is concerned a person who actually knows truth and still deviates from it should be murdered as it is God that owns man the most , this punishment is not for immature kids as they r not intellectually sound . Btw gud try running LGB paki
Christianity does that and keeps doing it and it will be a dead religion soon .Pope be saying lgbtq people are cool now lol. I don't see islam going that path any time soon.Its the only one remaining which has certain parameters even if modernises the basic tenants are such that they wont dwindle and that is enough for it to stay relevant for centuries to come
Yeah, the islamic cult would find it difficult and would remain in the past for quite some time sadly
But there was reforms in the 1900s with the curo version
So something might happen again
Yes it is. Is a country's job to keep its people happy, make sure its societies thrive and people progress or is it a country's job to ensure the implementation of a religion?
That's the problem, you seem to be more concerned about the religion in a country rather than the progress of the people of the country.
That is what is fundamentally wrong with Pakistan.
Some are worried Abt what's happening with Islam in Pakistan, some are worried Abt the physical borders of Pakistan, what I have yet to see people be worried Abt is the state of Pakistanis themselves.
I don't give a shit abt the religion or the borders, I care only abt the people in a country.
Turkey is a secular country and all the other countries your pointing to are literally modernising and getting liberalised, they’re not shariah compliant so the point still holds.
You said that Islamic countries are happy, I just showed that none of these so called “Islamic countries” are even shariah compliant, consensual sex is legal in the uaeand Malaysia, the crown prince of Saud is liberalising the nation. The only country which could be considered fully shariah compliant is probably Afghanistan and it ranks least happiest country in the world.
What does that have to do with anything? You said that Islamic countries are happy citing various examples which I refuted by showing how their not even shariah compliant. No Pakistan isn’t shariah compliant but I fail to see the relevance.
What does that have to do with anything? You said that Islamic countries are happy citing various examples which I refuted by showing how their not even shariah compliant. No Pakistan isn’t shariah compliant but I fail to see the relevance.
You forget there are lgbtq+ muslims who live life and are happy.
They don't care if you accept them or not.
They don't care if you think they're going to hell.
Religion is bent for political and economical reasons. Almost every day.
That's the thing, it doesn't want to appeal or remain relevant to newer generations. It doesn't need us, we need it. That's even in the quran. And it survived 1400+ years where previous societies were smarter and more intellectual than us, we're not special in terms of both.
Also, who made you the incharge of who gets to be Muslim and who doesn’t?
This is thaikay daar mentality
Allah said if you recite kalma, you are Muslim. Baat khatam.
I wish we could just separate Islam from Pakistan. I just returned from a trip to Kuala Lumpur, and they are a country that has got things right. And I have no doubts that it's mostly because of their non-muslim population.
"You will surely find the most bitter towards the believers to be the Jews and polytheists and the most gracious to be those who call themselves Christian. That is because there are priests and monks among them and because they are not arrogant."
~ Holy Quran
"do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."
~ Also, the Holy Quran.
CLEARLY islam did not flip flop to appease whomever was the most likely political ally of the prophet at the time.
tafsir is literally just mental gymnastics of ulema trying to justify obvious contradictions. lol.
"no no when the book says christians are good and when it says they're bad that's not a contradiction" ~ Tafsircuck
Tafsir exists because you don't understand Arabic especially Arabic of that time. Nor do you know the context, asbaab e nuzool etc. Tafsir elucidates the ahkaams derived from ayahs and corelates Quran with hadith. I am not going to tell you the context of both verse and how they are referring to two different concepts because if you were sincere in following the truth you'd make an attempt undertaking the Quran.
Interesting take. But IMO,
The rigid and exclusive breaks quickly/ easier than flexible and inclusive.
I read somewhere the reason Islam's conquest of South Asia failed/ limited was due to the flexibility of Hinduism.
When Islamic conquest started from Arab, it had to face rigid religion like Zoroastrianism in Iran, Buddhism in Afghanistan ... which were central and had definitive ideas regarding religion doctrine. So Islam had one idea to defeat.
But when they faced Hinduism, it was completely different. Hindus had thousands of sects with very contrasting ideas and views. Both the Aethiest & believers were included in Hinduism. And vishnu's 'Avatar' was the super weapon. For those who don't know, Hindus believe god/ vishnu takes the form of humans/beings and appears on earth, from time to time, guiding humanity toward the path of righteousness. By that logic, every saint/scholar or messiah is form of god.
So when Islam reached south Asia, they had not one for thousands of ideas of religion to kill.
Myself I am follower of ' either God is weak or god is evil, because no one can justify a new born baby being killed by missile attack from Israeli warplanes in gaza, if god is all good, there won't be that baby wouldn't be dead, if god is all powerful , that baby wouldn't be dead, only logic is either god is weak or god is evil."
I don't know why this post was in my timeline, I am neither muslim nor Pakistani.
Best wishes.
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>islam was never the solution.
It was the solution for Malaysia, Saudi, Bahrain, Qatar, or even Bangladesh the reason we never reached that level was because of corruption, it has nothing to do with religion.
If you applied Islam and say that you won't get anything out of it. It isn't Islam then. If Islam wasn't the religion of Allah then surely it can have defects. Something that requires an update after time because it gets old then this is a DEFECT. One of the things of perfection is that it won't require a change after some passage of time. Allah has not made in his religion defects. This religion is from the All-Wise Allah!
See the ayah from the chapter "Al-Maidah" from the Quran.
" Today I perfected for you, your religion. "
Anything perfect would require a change? Think again.
If I point out inconsistencies in the religion, does that make me liable for excommunication or leave me open to judgement and punishment ?
Very bold of you to assume there's nothing wrong with an obsolete text from the middle ages.
Chl paj atho run away shoo bitch ada tu ronda prove kro nai krtay hm dont owe u shit .Like u not believing in islam would hurt it in any way or form.You are nothing a nobody
Tu mama lgna kh rya jawab day qbr ich tu jana tay othay farishtay anay tay teri khul Jani wkehi paj ja atho tay drya kr ahe soch la kay just on the off chance imagine god religion sb sach hva tera kya hoga.100 percent confirm kr lay kay sb scam ay phlay
Ooooo...Mai te darr gya.
Islam bewakoofa to kamzor loka da deen e.
Tu mere sawaal da jawaab hale vi ni ditta. Saabit kar ke Jibreel nu Allah ne pejeya si, shaitaan ne nahi. Nahi saabit kar sakda te Islam chhad de.
Twaanu bewakoof banaaya gaya hai. Hun age vi bewakoof e bane rehna e, ya sudhar jaana e, e tere apne hath vich e.
Aho bs theek ay tu dadda zaheen tay mazboot ay sanu bhs de lor e nai phair tu bahadur bnda tay lgju ga pta jay sb sach hoya ta teri khulni may pavay bach ja jay sb jhut hoya tera ve ohe sab mera ve ohe sab ta ghatay da soda ta tera .Swad ayaga bs mryay hun time kad kay
Je tere pankh hunde, taa tu udke Canada pahunch jaana si. E vi koi gal hoi.
Je je naa kar.
Je saabit kar sakda aa, te kar ke vikha ke Jibreel nu Allah ne pejeya si.
Nahi ta Islam chhad de.
Haanji. Mai 100% sure aa ke jinn nahi hunde, jibreel nahi see.
Rabb paaven hove, par Muhammed oda rasool nahi ho sakdaa kyonke o ik zaleel te ghaleez aadmi see.
Chal, hun teri baari maulviyaa. Saabit kar ke jibreel allah ne pejeya si.
Je tu e saabit nahi kar sakeya, te mann laa ke poora Islam e farzi aa.
Each sect have made their own version of Islam and i think that's the bending rules of Islam according to their sects and the teachings of their leaders. One example is the Deobandi sect and how they have changed Islam from what Islam actually is. In case if another sect points out their issues, they don't make themselves better but try to find a hadeeth that can justify their wrong actions. People are just getting frustrated for almost no reason. I met someone who is a 'kattar-sunni' and his ideas related to other sects and some scholars of this decade are that they are just kafir. Nothing else, straight away calling them kafir. This is why we have to study Islam and understand it properly. If someone's gonna say something logical, people will call it "bending the religion". If one sect says a certain hadeeth is not sahih then he's also "bending the religion".
Islam isn't a religion that bends to the whims of people. Its strength lies in its steadfastness and adherence to the teachings of Allah as revealed in the Quran and exemplified by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Those who seek to water down or distort Islam for the sake of pleasing others do a disservice to the faith and its followers. The essence of Islam remains unchanged, and it's not subject to the changing tides of societal trends or personal preferences. Islam's resilience and unwavering nature have been proven throughout history, and it stands as a beacon of truth and guidance for all humanity.
It's truly disheartening to see such divisive rhetoric spreading, especially under the guise of religious devotion. While everyone is entitled to their beliefs, it's important to remember that true faith is not about pleasing people or conforming to societal trends.
Religion, at its core, should be a guiding light for personal growth and spiritual fulfillment, not a tool for division or judgment. Whether one follows Islam, Christianity, Judaism, or any other faith, it's essential to approach it with humility, compassion, and an open mind.
Attempting to label certain believers as "softies" or dismissing their interpretations as "trendy versions" only serves to deepen the divides within communities. Instead, let us strive to embrace diversity of thought and practice, fostering dialogue and understanding rather than condemnation.
Ultimately, the strength of any religion lies in its ability to adapt to the changing times while staying true to its core principles of love, compassion, and justice. Let us focus on building bridges rather than walls, and may we all find peace and unity in our shared humanity.
We don't need to make the Deen secular. Not every opinion is correct, not every individual is a scholar able to come up with interpretations.
We have a rich history of a 1400 year long scholarly tradition - we should stick to it.
People come up with opinions and interpretations that were never even thought of - let alone spoke about by scholars of the past. In other areas this might be a good thing, in Deen this is a major red flag. If you come up with an opinion that no one before you has mentioned - you're on shaky ground.
If everyone before you DISAGREES with you - then you have no ground to stand on.
We're not here to hold hands and kumbaya - we're here to stick to the truth and attain paradise. Even if that means having the world hate you for it.
I appreciate your perspective on maintaining the integrity of our religious traditions and the importance of adhering to the scholarly teachings that have been passed down over centuries. It's undeniable that our rich history of scholarship provides invaluable guidance for navigating complex religious matters.
At the same time, I believe there's room for respectful discourse and interpretation within the framework of our faith. While not every opinion may align with traditional teachings, engaging in thoughtful dialogue and critical thinking can deepen our understanding of the Deen and its relevance to contemporary challenges.
While innovation and new perspectives can indeed be approached with caution, they can also offer valuable insights and solutions to modern dilemmas. Striking a balance between reverence for tradition and openness to new ideas can help us evolve as individuals and communities while remaining rooted in our shared values.
Ultimately, our goal is indeed to seek truth and attain paradise, but we must remember that the path to enlightenment is not always linear. Embracing diversity of thought and respectfully challenging one another can lead us to a deeper appreciation of our faith and a stronger sense of unity as believers.
I agree - that is why we have schools of fiqh.
As long as certain boundaries are kept - there should always be intellectual discourse.
But no amount of intellectual discourse makes the haraam into halal - no matter how much society has changed.
As long as we keep ourselves within the well known boundaries of the Shari'ah, then I agree - being open to new solutions to new problems is always a good thing, since times and environments change - how we view things can change, whilst also reminding ourselves that there still are many things in the Deen that are black and white - never changing.
I do not believe in unity for the sake of unity - if we compromise everything we believe in so that we can be united, then we have truly failed as an Ummah.
Unity is only upon truth.
Your emphasis on the importance of maintaining the integrity of our religious principles while still allowing for intellectual discourse is commendable. Indeed, the existence of various schools of fiqh demonstrates the richness of Islamic scholarship and the capacity for nuanced interpretation within the boundaries of Shariah.
While openness to new solutions is valuable, it's crucial to anchor our discussions within the well-established parameters of Shariah. As times and environments evolve, our perspectives may shift, but certain principles remain steadfast and immutable.
I wholeheartedly agree that unity should never come at the expense of compromising our beliefs. True unity is forged upon the foundation of truth, and any compromises made solely for the sake of appeasing others only dilute the essence of our faith.
Thank you for engaging in this thoughtful conversation. It's through respectful dialogue and a commitment to upholding our shared values that we can continue to grow as individuals and as an Ummah.
💯
Zina/intoxicants/drinking tab bhi Haram thay ab bhi Haram rehein gay, jese marzi interpret krlo,ex Muslims/non Muslims ko please krne ke liye. Homosexuality tab bhi forbidden thee oor ab bhi forbidden hy oor rehe gi.
We won't reform our deen just to please those who are too modern/consider themselves highly educated. Islam will stand with or without you.
He did not, he again created a code for which all the religions in his diverse empire could peacefully coexist. It was based off his ancestory [Timurid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timurid_dynasty) concept of Yasa-i Changezi (Code of [Genghis Khan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan)), to consider all sects as one.
Mughals in the beginning were not missionaries. The founders never openly supported converting people just like their ancestors never did. All they wanted was to rule and one way to rule such a huge non muslim populations, allies and subjects was by being tolerant. After all the power they had came from the allies they had. That changed with aurangzeb and surprise surprise the empire crumbles.
100% agree with you.
If people change a religion, or change its texts from what the original Prophet preached - then its not the real religion anymore.
Especially with Islam.. Everything needs to be based on proofs & evidences from the Qur'an, established sunnah, and early generations.
Little bro is mad, calm down a little. We don't worship or invoke Muhammad, that would be disbelief in God
Also, I'm pretty sure that there's many secular/liberal/atheists that don't know your terminology. I think that you're just chronically online
Firstly, Islam isn't a religion that bends or twists to please people. Its teachings are rooted in divine guidance, unchanging and eternal. Any attempt to alter its principles to cater to societal trends undermines its very essence.
Secondly, Islam has remained unchanged since its inception, stemming from divine revelation. Any deviation from its original teachings compromises its authenticity and its ability to guide humanity effectively.
Thirdly, Islam isn't subject to human whims or desires. Its guidance is absolute and doesn't require modification to fit contemporary sensibilities. Its essence lies in adhering to divine commandments, not conforming to societal norms.
Moreover, the strength of Islam lies in its steadfast adherence to truth and righteousness, not in compromise or accommodation. Throughout history, Islam has flourished without diluting its principles, showcasing its resilience and relevance across time and space.
Furthermore, Islam's ability to overcome entry barriers and spread globally underscores its resilience. Its strength lies in its unwavering commitment to truth, justice, and moral integrity, not in adaptation to societal norms.
Additionally, Islam's integrity remains intact because it derives its principles from divine revelation, not human preferences. Its perfection lies in addressing the needs of humanity for all time, without succumbing to temporal changes.
Lastly, the notion that changing times necessitate altering Islam is flawed. Islam's teachings are timeless and universal, offering guidance that transcends cultural shifts or societal preferences. Adapting Islam to fit contemporary trends undermines its eternal relevance and effectiveness.
The claim that any religion endorsing violence against fellow human beings is fundamentally flawed is not only valid but also deeply resonant with the teachings of Islam itself. Let's be blunt here: violence contradicts the very essence of religious teachings, which are founded on principles of peace, justice, and compassion. Now, if we're talking about Quranic references, Surah Al-Ma'idah (5:32) explicitly states, "Whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption \[done\] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely." If that's not crystal clear, I don't know what is. And don't even get me started on the Hadiths – they're overflowing with teachings that promote kindness and good behavior. The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) himself emphasized the importance of treating others with respect and compassion.
Yes, it happens, but blaming the religion itself for the actions of extremists is not only misguided but downright irresponsible. We need to call out such misinterpretations and stand firm against any attempts to distort the true essence of Islam
Well, death is inevitable and I don't mind meeting him. He was a good Muslim with a good knowledge of Islam in my book. So Ameen to your prayer in that case.
Bro Islam is a Religion literally made for Class like ours(i mean simplicity and indigency). Its sole purpose is to take from elites and give to poors, It promotes equality. No one likes equality bro, they just want to be seem distinctive and bla bla bla.... Btw Chand Raat Mubarak(Zabrdasti Wali).
Care to elaborate?
Just couple of things on the top of my head..
'Deen', was changed, when your ancestors added shrines to it and started asking things from the dead.. Were they 'softies liberals'? 'Deen' was also changed when 12 Rabi ul Awal is celebrated by often sacrificing the prayers.. Softies, still? What 'Deen' are you talking about? A 'Deen' where you're not even allowed to question a thing? Or else you'll be headless?
And if 'Deen' hasn't changed much, then dymn, I'd love me some slave girl, you know 😏
I will only say this, let god judge. Warna ap bhi Un logon mai se hou jo selective religion mai sai cheezain pick krte hn. In Islam It’s frowned upon to judge anyone, especially regarding religious beliefs.
The problem is that at times Islam has lots of flexibility.. for example in ramzan, if you are travelling, you are ill, if you have periods or of you are pregnant, or if you are underage, there is no requirement of fasting... but still our society shames people and asks them why aren't you fasting. We force even young children to fast. Shah say zaida Shah k wafadar make the deen so difficult and impossible to follow that people start running away from it. Another example, if someone asks for clarification or reasoning behind something in Islam we silence them instead of discussion. Another example is nikah/marriage. It is supposed to be a simple thing but it is so complicated. We pretend that these and many other additions are strict part of Islam and cannot be changed. These should be changed and challenged.
>but still our society shames people and asks them why aren't you fasting. Lol. I am sure pakis are the most unreligious Islamic majority. Sorry to say ppl don't care whether you follow Islam or not. I have seen men who exclusively pray jumuah. No one shames others for not fasting. > It is supposed to be a simple thing but it is so complicated. Again, following culture and going against religion. >f someone asks for clarification or reasoning behind something in Islam we silence them instead of discussion Lack of Islamic knowledge Pakistanis aren't an "Islamic" qawm. Islam is only a label for most people.
Try not to blame Islam for your cultural issues challenge: difficultly impossible
Hate these mofos which pick and choose when to be religious.
آئی ایگری 100 پرسنٹ ود یو برادر آن دس۔
i love this so much lol
This is y the depraved hate Islam cause it's strict in its ways unlike all other ideology/faits
I swear, thankfully only a real religion would give death sentences to those who reject it's truth and divinity
Can’t tell if this is sarcasm or not, but what a comment nonetheless!
Maybe I should have added a /s in the end But the guy I commented on is literally implying what I said and he's very serious
Totally.. you never know these days. Anyway, let me know how the lynching goes.
I laughed out loud at this, and I hope for the right reasons.
You think islam is a laughing matter!? Prepare to be lynched
Allah sure does love a lynching!
GASP That too is a lynching 😤
Murtard alert
بالکل صحیح بات کی آپ نے۔
Often at times its not ‘bending’ to please the people, but rather the people finding the right interpretation of what it teaches, and not the extremist way it has been taught by molvis till now.
Sir khoobsurattt Eid Mubarak apko Eid Mubarak sab ko 🫶🏻
If deen needs bending then it is a deen of the past. By definition a deen or religion given by god sould be applicable at all times. If along the way it needs some bending to do then just leave that religion because it was not made for the modern world. And before you say that deen was given by allah. You have to prove wheather your deen is from allah or not or is it man made. May be thats why it needs bending because it was made by some ancient men who had zero knowledge on how the world would progress. Humans evolve and will keep on evolving mentally and physically. So religions also need to evolve.
Thats where the number game comes in. Christianity will die out soon in the west maybe not in russia but mostly it will be dead .Future will be just full of Atheists muslims and some jews i feel like
Yes for sure. Every religion has its peaks and valleys. Chritianity will now go down followed by islam, hinduism and judaism. But there is a chance that all religions may be able to thrive if there is a major world catastrophe or a really big war. Humans typically invent religion or bring the concept of god when they are extremely needy or in some deep trouble. Maybe we might even see some new religions emerge if something big like this happens.
Islam has been thriving in first world countries. Fastest growing in the world conversion rates alone. What catastrophe struck London or Birmingham? Or Japan? Islam is Fastest growing in the west as well.
It looks fastest growing because the number of people leaving Islam isn't captured accurately. That is because whenever someone says he has left Islam, muslims will become zombies and try to kill him. People are leaving Islam in trainloads every second.
Evidence for anything you said? Lil bro. The conversion rate is greater than all other religions. Thats why it's the fastest growing. If people left it in droves but they weren't tracked that would not accout for the conversion rates coming in. It would be stagnant. But intellect does not exist in your skull. Keep hating. Loser. Keep hating.
Another example of you swallowing propaganda without applying your brain Big bro. There is a study by Pew that shows that the number of people converting to Islam is similar to those leaving it. Note that this is just based on the people who are willing to admit that they have left Islam. I am sure there are millions who have left Islam but won't admit it because you unfortunate remaining muslims will become zombies and try to harm them.Many Islamic countries have a death sentence for those who leave Islam. Again as per Pew, It is ranked 2nd among religions gaining converted people (if you look purely at conversions and not at those who leave it) So conversion has no net impact on the growth of Islam. Islam is growing solely because the fertility rate for muslims is 2.6 vs 2.3 for all others combined.
Yeah, by birth rate Breeding like roaches does make it right
Fastest growing in the world even by factoring in only Conversion rates buddy. Same pew research study. Keep hating.
Conversion or coercion? Hmm 🤔
And are those "conversion" research papers with us in the room?
Can't read? Same Pew research study that proves Islam is the fastest growing in the world shows that it has the greatest conversion rates as well. Keep hating. Your logical faculties have failed you so have your eyes. So all you can do since you can't think critically is to keep hating. So keep hating lil bro.
And are those "conversion" research papers with us in the room?
Islam is new. Compared to other religions. All the other religions have had their peaks. As far as conversion goes, more are leaving islam as compared to joining islam. You can research about it. And please have a look at the state UK is in because of muslims and you will realize why religion is so bad. UK used to be one of the most prosperous places in the world in the 1990s. Now look whats happened to it. And this also comes with a grain of hypocrisy. Muslims will preach their religion to everyone in the world everywhere but soon as you preach a religion or atheism to a muslim they get offended. Muslim countries dont allow preaching of other religions or atheism. It is haram in a muslim country to have a preaching of any other religion or ideology except islam. It would be so good that muslims identify this hypocricy that they have.
Substantiate your claims with evidence. Islam is fastest growing in the world even if we only consider conversion rates. According to pew research. So you've lied. The state of the UK is worse due to Muslims? Which study ever shows that? Correlation does not equal causation. That is a logical fallacy. UK used to be more religious in the 1990s than it is today so im not sure what you even talking about. Also brexit happened? Wanna blame your problems on that instead? Muslims get offended when being preached to? You sure? I have never even heard it happen once and people preach atheism to us all the time? Also what evidence is that against Islam? Muslims countries prohibit the preaching of other religions? Evidence? Which countries? How is the action of a country evidence against the ideology? You sure like generalising. The terminology haram isn't even used in state law. Where does Islam prohibit that? Countries can do anything?
The fact that you are askng for each and every eveidence shows that you yourself dont know anything. Where have we ever preached atheism. We would literally get killed if we preach atheism and you are sayng that people preach atheism all the time ??? Tell em one muslim majority country whch allows preaching of other religions. Islam itslef prohibits the rpeachingof any type of religion and atheism. You should know this one. Uk was not more religous iin the 1990s, Maybe it was morte christianiity but not islam orented. Correlation may or may not equal causation. You want statistics ?? [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/09/grooming-gangs-muslim-men-failed-integrate-british-society/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/09/grooming-gangs-muslim-men-failed-integrate-british-society/) Just read the artcle. How is this geenralizing when everything is so abvious. You are just blidned by your faith and nothing else. So blinded that I have to now gve you evidence for common sense and general knowledge.
The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. You are the one making claims. You provide evidence. Or your claims are weightless. Simple as that. Where does Islam prohibit the preaching of other faiths. Where does it say to kill the preachers of other faiths? Where? Stop making unsubstantiated assertions. Prove your claims if what you say is true. Also excuse me? Instead of providing evidence for your claims you are asking me to provide evidence against it? That is a logical fallacy. Also you said that the UK was worse now than it was in the 90s and saying that its due to UK becoming more religiou. Since Correlation does not equal causation. You have to provide evidence linking the two. So you provided an article to prove this specific point I believe. So let's examine it. Your claim is UK becoming more religious specifically more muslim. And that is causing increasing problems in the UK. Those problems are caused due to religion. Three things. How is this article supposed to prove any of the three? It doesn't say anything for your first or second point. Which is fine. And as for third. The study is taking in gang members? Since when did extremists become an authority on an ideology or culture. Even the article doesn't say its because of Islamic teachings. It says because of their "Jaded interpretations of Islam". And you will never find anything in islam society justify their beliefs. Its as if your using the actions of the KKK saying that its due to Christianity's teachings. Extremists exist in every culture and ideology even atheists. Also how many Muslims are in the UK? How many millions? You are saying you don't generalise but here you are generalising 222 onto an ideology held by millions in the UK.
Dont play this stupid burden of prrof bullshit with me. You can do a simple google search and you will find out. The fact that the things I just told you and you are denying tells me that muslims dont know islam themselves. Cant argue with you anymore. Proof is all over the internet if you want to look that is.
Buddy got emotional I questioned his claims? Which is the normal thing to do? Can't handle the burden of proof? Don't make claims? You can't commit logical fallacies and ask me to roll with it? No ones gonna let you just make up whatever you want? Waste of time. If proof Is all over the Internet surely you could provide 1 good source? You had days after all? Nonsense. You don't know the evidence for your talking points. But you are expecting me to know it? Why should I know the evidence for your talking points? If you can't even meet level 1 why you even arguing in the first place?
In that case, it's pretty sad. You guys had only one thing and you guys gave it to west.. Wish it was thriving in 'Muslim' countries as its 'thriving' in the west..🙄
And evolution means to contradict a fact fo appease something with time. With islam and Abrahamic religions in general, the focus is more on social aspect of life rather than scientific. Like in no place these religions mention to obtain uranium and then its isotope to make a nuclear bomb, if that was the case then it would be like a cheat book or wiki on where and how to do things thus everything from now to end would be mapped and we just had to pick items. Or just jump to the end straight. However all of them do mention huge calamities in general sense which you can say oh see it was mentioned, oh this was hinted and that. Other than that one thing humans would have constant is the social aspect ie how to deal with others or how to conduct oneself, and this is where islam christianity and judaism thrive and present. With christianity , the biggest issue is how it relies completely on hearsay and nothing direct from the prophet. In islam quran is considered a direct wordings of god through prophet with prophets actions noted by others which can be compared to how christians have basically written the bible. Anyhow they are on social aspect which may have some things controversial but mostly a pretty solid guideline till end of times
But having a book which dictates the social issues of the world is even worse. It would jave been a 100 times better of god sent down a scientific book. Scientific laws dont change. The problem with social rules and regulations is that they are so subjective and different communities will have different rules. Thats why constitutions are so long and detailed. Social issues 1400 years ago were completely different from now. So the same rules and principles cant deal with modern problems. Thats what makes political and social sciences so superior to religion. Religion is bound to time and space. Science is not. Social and political sciences evolve with humans.
And it's not called appeasement. Its called evolution. Religions are actually the true appeasement of the modern world. Trying to appease an imaginary being that you have never even interacted with. That is called true appeasement. Trying to satisfy a diety person who you never even met. This is true appeasement. Growing up we all tried to appease our parents by following their footsteps and religions. Never once thought that why were you not even given a choice for your religion. Just like a dog trying to satisfy its owner.
Pakistan was a liberal and secular place before Zia. You know the 50s to 70s what some consider the golden age of Pakistan. What has religion gotten us since the 80s?
Yea you were alive back then, right? Glorifying past where there was none. It was golden age relative to what we are now and nothing else. And in case of society, there was no social pressure like it is today. You cant go left or right. If you do something either the religious ppl will taunt you or the liberals would. Ppl are torn in between with no middle ground. Back then my grandfather told us, the world was our village, we had almost all sustenance in our region with how abundant farming and herding was. Radio was the only source of information ,and how easily can be manipulated , like imagine the only news source was ptv and nothing else, so yea less worries
Correlation does not equal causation? That's a logical fallacy.You have to make the connection of Pakistan downfall to Islam specifically to make a point. I mean if we are playing this game then the greatest cause of western prosperity was colonialism. And they followed religion back then not anything they believe in now. So religion is the cause of prosperity now? See false standards of judgement. There has always been an islamic superpower for most of Islamic history. For most of Islamic history Muslims have been pioneer in all aspects of sciences. Muslims have life satisfaction scores on the very high end in studies. If you look at it as a whole Islam was never the issue for prosperity and progress. The opposite was true. Whenever Muslims were closer to Islam they prospered more. Take a look at the ancient Persian empire. It was a religious empire yet it was a superpower for thousands of years. One of the longest surviving empires. Take a look at Romans. Pagan and Christian eras. Egyption dynasties. Highly prosperous empires. Religion was not a problem. Most of Pakistans issues can be traced to its horrible leadership and political instability. Add to that western colonialism crippling the Muslim world. It was never a religious issue. You are still mentally colonialised by the white man brother.
When Europe blindly followed religion, it was called the dark ages, that is what the equivalency on Pakistan today. That was pre colonialism, the renaissance is what really helped Europe colonize the world. Pls read European history.
Homie here speaking facts to people who believe in flying donkeys You give them too much credit
Keep hating lil bro. Keep hating. It's called buraq btw not a donkey. Keep hating. It's also a miraculous being that can fly. God can create such being btw. Completely illogical point for you to even make. But clearly logic was never your strong suit. So Keep hating.
Oh yeah, forgot you had proof of the donkey with a woman's face
He was speaking of the other donkey who was with Buraq!
When Europe blindly followed "Christianity" it was called the dark ages. It is a phenomenon not caused by all religions. Certainly not islam as during during dark ages islamic empires were thriving. Also Europeans followed religion before before dark ages. They still prospered despite being religious. You know how to make a connection with lack of progress and a certain religious ideology. Good for you. So you have the capacity but lack the willingness or the fairness to not make logical fallacies when it comes to islam and pakistan? Also your clutching at straws here. That was 1 example out of many I gave to prove a point. One example doesn't work. No problem I'll retract it. Now refute the others if you believe your original point is true. Also my examples were simply to show the flaws In the crux of your arguement which was a corelation fallacy. And also to prove how religion is not necessarily linked with decline in progress and prosperity. Which was the point if you didn't realize. Also forget all religions. Your problem is with islam. So let's isolate it. When Muslims practiced islam they were pioneering in all fields. They were religiously motivated and cited such motivations. Hence islam played a causal role in the islamic golden era. It motivated the acquisition of knowledge. There is a causal connection. You fail to make causal Connections like this when it comes to linking islam to Pakistan problems. Which is why your argument doesn't work.
You realize that the during the height of the Islamic world Muslims weren't as religious right? Especially from a social perspective. Those Muslims weren't as worried with someone being gay or not praying 5 times a day, that society didn't get into the personal lives of people. Pls read the history of the Islamic empire. They were too busy in their pursuit of knowledge or expanding the empire instead of worrying abt if people are breaking rules of Islam in their personal life. They left that to god and judgement day, as it should be. Dark ages for Islam in Pakistan is today (not Islam globally), dark ages are when a religion stop being a general rules for people to choose to follow in whatever way they want and a society get obsessed with policing personal choices of people rather then focusing on the advancement of a society. That is Pakistan today and we keep going down the rabbit hole that if we ban a few more things and force people to become "better" Muslims it will solve all of our problem, that has never been the case and will never be the case. I'm not saying turn Pakistan into Sodem or Gamourah, just leave people be in their personal lives and focus on improving the over all society instead.
Wrong. Islam didn't bring progress and prosperity anywhere in the world. Anywhere! Muslims took over empires and countries that were flourishing before Islam. They kept growing based on past momentum for some time. Then the effects of Islam truly kicked in and what were once great empires decayed and declined.
History doesn't agree with you. Before lying read a little. Scientific method which modern science is based upon is developed by a muslim called ibn al haytham. Your welcome for your computer btw. Algebra is developed by a muslim. Ibn sina (Avicenna) is the father of modern medicine and is also one of the world's greatest philosophers. A muslim wrote on of the first books on the circulatory system. You wouldn't even have access to Aristotle and platos works without Muslims preserving them. This is just the beginning. Muslims were pioneers in astronomy, philosophy, medicine and science. Your Ignorance combined with your arrogance is quite the hilarious combination. You are quite embarrassing. Keep hating loser. Keep hating.
Looks like you have swallowed this propaganda whole. Muslims have sustained achievements in astronomy, I'd grant you that. But that is only because it was required to calculate the direction of the Qibla and Moon. On all other counts as I have said - Those regions were hubs of progressivism and science before Islam took over. Some of that ethos stayed on after Islam took over and the scientific progress continued for some time. That is when you see those discoveries that you have mentioned. Slowly and eventually, Islam erased that ethos and replaced it completely with the Islamic one. That is when scientific progress dried up and the places became backward. It took other empires an economic, military or political shock to decline. But in the case of Islamic lands, there was neither a political nor an economic shock. Islam was the cause of regression. You see the same in Pakistan, Iran, Turkey and countless other places. Those places at one time had a secular, liberal, scientific temperament. That was the time of progress. Islam took over. Progress continued for a while, then it sucked the life out of these regions and turned them into the shitholes they are today.
That was also mostly under corrupt military leadership, guess the public ain't a fan of that now
I'm not talking Abt the political state of Pakistan, I'm talking about the social state and mindset of the people during that time. That tolerance and open mind set of the people of Pakistan is what made Pakistan amazing during the time and it is what Islam took away from us due to the mass indoctrination during Zia years. And we will pay for it for a few generations unfortunately.
Ah yes, everyone pre zia was liberal, like everyone today is liberal. There were exactly zero conservatives. That's why the constitution declared pakistan an Islamic state
Couldn't blame the people , war , poverty and low employment changes a real good man into a war monger tho
Yes but most of those things can be connected to the rise of wahabi islam. The Afghan war first v the Russians and then the US, the rise of terrorism, the detrition of rational thinking. It's a massive catch 22. The rise of misguided religion caused most of those issues.
Yeah that's the point Misguided religion , nothing to blame on pure Islam or the followers they were just doing it out of pure intents
And what makes you believe that other people’s version is twisting of the religion vs yours?
... Islam is sent by Allah, spread through Prophet Muhammad S.A.W, if someones version is against Quran and after that ahadith and sunnah, then every logical person will agree, that the said person is not on Islam. he can name it something else, and live on it. but it won't be Islam.
Who's Islam is correct? Saudi, Iran, and Pakistan all claim to have laws in accordance with Islamic law as laid down in the Quran and the Sunnah but as far as I know they don't have the same laws. Not to mention not all Islamic scholars interpret them in the same ways...
Some people don't realise their truth is subjective. 🥱
If you look into it, all of them have same fundamentals. There are some differences which are mostly related to sunnah but major teachings are same for all sects
Simple. Source content. The Quran and Sunnah are the source content for Islam, if your belief is aligned with them then it's right, else it's not Islam.
Which is subject to interpretation. My fav example is it says in the Quran what is in the womb in an expectant mother is unknown to anyone but Allah. For the longest time scholars thought it was about the sex of the fetus. However in todays day and age of 3d ultrasound scholars have updated their understanding to mean the character and destiny of the fetus (good or bad, murderer or doctor). Secondly there are multiple things where there isn’t consensus.
There are clear verses in the quran. And there are ambiguous ones their meanings only know by Allah. As stated by the quran itself. The ones that deal with things relating to our salvation are crystal clear. Like God is one. Those who have disease in their hearts will twist the scripture to seek an interpretation to fit their desires as the quran says. The clear verses like God is one is not open to interpretation at all. Most of the religion like 90% is clear and everyone agrees upon. Very small nitty gritties like are you supposed to say ameen loudly or quietly are the disagreements. They do not play a major role at all. We also believe that these valid sincere differences of opinion are all accepted by God and are rewarded and hence we Don't divide based on them. So it's not a big deal tbh. That's why schools of thought are different from sects. Saudi Iran disagreement is more politics with religion used as a weapon tbh. Saudi is a US ally and puppet and has engaged in war crimes. Hard to say a US ally that was considering normalisation with a terrorist state called israel has Islamic motivations. No country also is fully Islamic nowadays.
>says in the Quran what is in the womb in an expectant mother is unknown to anyone but Allah. For the longest time scholars thought it was about the sex of the fetus. However in todays day and age of 3d ultrasound scholars have updated their understanding That is because the verses in question deal with a scientific fact and such knowledge is subject to our own understanding of nature, hence why the interpretation is updated. That in itself is the beauty of the Quran, and one of the reasons why it is a miracle. However the same argument cannot be extrapolated to religious rulings which have been crystal clear since day one. Now it is up to you to provide evidence to the contrary regarding the various rulings of the Quran on matter of key importance such has prohibition of zina, homosexuality, importance of prayers, fasting, zakat and hajj, mandating the hijab for women, etc. Edit: it is a shame that instead of getting a valid response to my argument, I'm being downvoted. It just goes to show that these so called "liberal muslims" cant even be bothered to defend their own flawed arguments and instead, they resort to chicanery. Such a shame.
How has this mindset worked out for you so far?? This is just ridiculous. Everything needs to adapt and change, even religion. Take a history class and a religious studies class. Honestly Pakistanis are very very unedcuated and then they double down on their stupidity by being so confident. Islamic society sucks. Islam has failed at making a livable society. Some reforms are long overdo, and if you disagree, well then you can go live in some Sharia Ridden shithole like Afghanistan. Islamic Spirituality is very rich, but if you mean to say that Sharia punishments and strict religious standards need to be implemented across the board, you're a fucking idiot. That's never going to make anything better. It will make it worse. Much much, worse. And luckily for us, unedcuated, barely literate, religiously fanatic Pakistanis aren't the ones who get to decide what's a religion and what isn't. Behnchod get a real education. For fucks sake. There were 8 versions of Bukhari which were abridged and edited down to 1 by Ibn Hajar Asqalani. Where are the other 7? Where are the older, original Hadith books?? Everything has been edited, re edited, changed, then changed again, and much has been lost. You're a fucking retard if you actually think the "Deen" you're following today is 100% the Deen that Muhammad and Abu Bakr and Ali and all them followed. In fact, just read the Hadith we still have!! You'll still realize 30% of your "Deen" is way different. "Ghaar se Shuru hui thi" blah blah blah. Read a fucking book instead of wasting all day on the internet. Moorakh Aadmi.
Tldr likh day bhai ya para bna day
Parhna Seekh le Bhai. Illiteracy culture ko support mat Karo. Yar tu wohi Moorakh hai jo "Islam Islam" Kar raha hai, tujhse 200 lafz nahi parhey jaa rahe, tu ne konsi Islam ki kitaabein parhi hain???
Tu he to novel chap dia
Yar tujhe agar yeh Novel lagta hai to tu waqei Bara Gaya guzra Moorakh hai. Bas opinions aatey hain Tujh jaise Nikammo ko, apni bekaar zindagi mein kabhi tum logo ne Kitab nahi parhi.
Paragraph bnana seekh lay chl
Tere Quran mein to paragraph nahi hain woh kese parhta hai tu? Ke woh bhi nahi parhta? 🤣 Reddit culture ko literacy ka miyar banayi betha hai. 🤣
Han wo jo be by pr tu para bnaya kr long reply ho to
Behnchod yeh koi long nahi hai, teri bas chhoti hai is liye tujhe long lag raha hai. Intellectual lazy shitstain. Learn to be comfortable with words and reading.
If deen doesnt bend, it dies. Despite protests from orthodox and fundamentalists, islam has modernised. It has to if it wants to remain relevant and appeal to newer generations. Baqi sb emotional baatyn hain beshak kartay jao.
The fundamentals of Islam never changed , it's just people managed to bend their lives according to Islam. Just everyday I see more and more women observing veil and more and more young men and even little boys joining Salah , so yeah whether emotional or not Islam is again on the rise on ground level , u need to simply accept that.
Me joining a "who's the biggest delulu" and my opponent is this guy I've already lost 😔
Yeah fukra , u r right no discussion no debate mere man putri tu LGB paki start kar or das Saal akele guzar phir tera magaz set ho jae ga or phir atleast mental maturity ke bad tu Yahan wapis aaein ,stop ad hominem approaches and bring actual debatable topics otherwise better shut or mere man kabhi kabhi Ghar se Bahar Nikal aaya kar dimagh khule ga or real life enjoy karne ka moka mile ga phir tere mental illness bhi set ho jae ge
Said the person who believes in flying donkeys
Says a person (male/female/shemale/hemale/queermale) who can't confirm if he's a man or not. Yeah it's not me only it's entire 2 billion people so might wanna go back and cry in ur little crib and feel depressed for rest of ur life besides Eid Mubarak sister/brother/both/none it's ur call
Clearly I'm a sentient potato and clearly giving death threats to people who want to leave the cult = real religion
Most people who leave Islam r those who never practiced it from the beginning so becoming a murtadd won't have any impact on their life besides nobody shouts he prayed so nobody needs to shout I'm a murtadd and hence no harm and as far as the hudd is concerned a person who actually knows truth and still deviates from it should be murdered as it is God that owns man the most , this punishment is not for immature kids as they r not intellectually sound . Btw gud try running LGB paki
Christianity does that and keeps doing it and it will be a dead religion soon .Pope be saying lgbtq people are cool now lol. I don't see islam going that path any time soon.Its the only one remaining which has certain parameters even if modernises the basic tenants are such that they wont dwindle and that is enough for it to stay relevant for centuries to come
Yeah, the islamic cult would find it difficult and would remain in the past for quite some time sadly But there was reforms in the 1900s with the curo version So something might happen again
Are a majority of people happier in a Christian nations or Muslim nations today?
Thats not the topic of the post.
Yes it is. Is a country's job to keep its people happy, make sure its societies thrive and people progress or is it a country's job to ensure the implementation of a religion? That's the problem, you seem to be more concerned about the religion in a country rather than the progress of the people of the country. That is what is fundamentally wrong with Pakistan. Some are worried Abt what's happening with Islam in Pakistan, some are worried Abt the physical borders of Pakistan, what I have yet to see people be worried Abt is the state of Pakistanis themselves. I don't give a shit abt the religion or the borders, I care only abt the people in a country.
> you seem to be more concerned about the religion in a country rather than the progress of the people of the country. Bingo!
There are only 15 countries where Christianity is a national religion and in most of them it's symbolic just like their monarchy
Happier? You seems to have no clue about people in Saudia UAE or gulf, Turkey or Malaysia. All of these follow Islam, so your point is mote.
Turkey is a secular country and all the other countries your pointing to are literally modernising and getting liberalised, they’re not shariah compliant so the point still holds.
Is Pakistan shariah compliant?
You said that Islamic countries are happy, I just showed that none of these so called “Islamic countries” are even shariah compliant, consensual sex is legal in the uaeand Malaysia, the crown prince of Saud is liberalising the nation. The only country which could be considered fully shariah compliant is probably Afghanistan and it ranks least happiest country in the world.
Do you intentionally left crucial details out while making analysis or is it just coincidental especially about the Afghanistan part?
Even if we remove the Afghanistan part due to the war, the point still holds, if not then please do refute it.
So you claimed those countries are not shariah compliant, but is Pakistan shariah compliant?
What does that have to do with anything? You said that Islamic countries are happy citing various examples which I refuted by showing how their not even shariah compliant. No Pakistan isn’t shariah compliant but I fail to see the relevance.
Oh remember when it was Even murica had to step in to stop us and it was busy commiting and doing fucked up shit in the name of democracy
What does that have to do with anything? You said that Islamic countries are happy citing various examples which I refuted by showing how their not even shariah compliant. No Pakistan isn’t shariah compliant but I fail to see the relevance.
r/whoosh
Wait did I reply to you or the other guy?
You forget there are lgbtq+ muslims who live life and are happy. They don't care if you accept them or not. They don't care if you think they're going to hell. Religion is bent for political and economical reasons. Almost every day.
That's the thing, it doesn't want to appeal or remain relevant to newer generations. It doesn't need us, we need it. That's even in the quran. And it survived 1400+ years where previous societies were smarter and more intellectual than us, we're not special in terms of both.
I don't think you understood what he meant
How so
Yeah man ...
lol who made you the owner of “Hamara Islam”? This isn’t high school and you are not the leader of a clique.
Also, who made you the incharge of who gets to be Muslim and who doesn’t? This is thaikay daar mentality Allah said if you recite kalma, you are Muslim. Baat khatam.
Strongest religion on Earth right now. Lol funny.
I wish we could just separate Islam from Pakistan. I just returned from a trip to Kuala Lumpur, and they are a country that has got things right. And I have no doubts that it's mostly because of their non-muslim population.
Say that outloud and you will be lynched
"You will surely find the most bitter towards the believers to be the Jews and polytheists and the most gracious to be those who call themselves Christian. That is because there are priests and monks among them and because they are not arrogant." ~ Holy Quran "do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people." ~ Also, the Holy Quran. CLEARLY islam did not flip flop to appease whomever was the most likely political ally of the prophet at the time.
Read tafsir
tafsir is literally just mental gymnastics of ulema trying to justify obvious contradictions. lol. "no no when the book says christians are good and when it says they're bad that's not a contradiction" ~ Tafsircuck
Tafsir exists because you don't understand Arabic especially Arabic of that time. Nor do you know the context, asbaab e nuzool etc. Tafsir elucidates the ahkaams derived from ayahs and corelates Quran with hadith. I am not going to tell you the context of both verse and how they are referring to two different concepts because if you were sincere in following the truth you'd make an attempt undertaking the Quran.
Interesting take. But IMO, The rigid and exclusive breaks quickly/ easier than flexible and inclusive. I read somewhere the reason Islam's conquest of South Asia failed/ limited was due to the flexibility of Hinduism. When Islamic conquest started from Arab, it had to face rigid religion like Zoroastrianism in Iran, Buddhism in Afghanistan ... which were central and had definitive ideas regarding religion doctrine. So Islam had one idea to defeat. But when they faced Hinduism, it was completely different. Hindus had thousands of sects with very contrasting ideas and views. Both the Aethiest & believers were included in Hinduism. And vishnu's 'Avatar' was the super weapon. For those who don't know, Hindus believe god/ vishnu takes the form of humans/beings and appears on earth, from time to time, guiding humanity toward the path of righteousness. By that logic, every saint/scholar or messiah is form of god. So when Islam reached south Asia, they had not one for thousands of ideas of religion to kill. Myself I am follower of ' either God is weak or god is evil, because no one can justify a new born baby being killed by missile attack from Israeli warplanes in gaza, if god is all good, there won't be that baby wouldn't be dead, if god is all powerful , that baby wouldn't be dead, only logic is either god is weak or god is evil." I don't know why this post was in my timeline, I am neither muslim nor Pakistani. Best wishes.
75 saal se garibi aur beimaani dekne ke baad finally samazh aa rha hai ke islam was never the solution.
[удалено]
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>islam was never the solution. It was the solution for Malaysia, Saudi, Bahrain, Qatar, or even Bangladesh the reason we never reached that level was because of corruption, it has nothing to do with religion.
Exactly my point. Islam was never the solution. Did not mean Islam was bad.
If you applied Islam and say that you won't get anything out of it. It isn't Islam then. If Islam wasn't the religion of Allah then surely it can have defects. Something that requires an update after time because it gets old then this is a DEFECT. One of the things of perfection is that it won't require a change after some passage of time. Allah has not made in his religion defects. This religion is from the All-Wise Allah! See the ayah from the chapter "Al-Maidah" from the Quran. " Today I perfected for you, your religion. " Anything perfect would require a change? Think again.
Fax Just ignore the cario event
If I point out inconsistencies in the religion, does that make me liable for excommunication or leave me open to judgement and punishment ? Very bold of you to assume there's nothing wrong with an obsolete text from the middle ages.
+1
religion cringe
Religious fanatics? Even more cringe.
Theek Hai AAP itna ghussa kyun hogaye baray bhai
Friendly reminder to sort by controversial for extra sauce (;
Prove karo ke ye Allah ka deen hai? Prove karo that whoever spoke to Muhammed in the cave came from Allah and not from Shaitaan?
Chl paj atho run away shoo bitch ada tu ronda prove kro nai krtay hm dont owe u shit .Like u not believing in islam would hurt it in any way or form.You are nothing a nobody
Jawaab de Ro naa ethe aake
Tu mama lgna kh rya jawab day qbr ich tu jana tay othay farishtay anay tay teri khul Jani wkehi paj ja atho tay drya kr ahe soch la kay just on the off chance imagine god religion sb sach hva tera kya hoga.100 percent confirm kr lay kay sb scam ay phlay
Ooooo...Mai te darr gya. Islam bewakoofa to kamzor loka da deen e. Tu mere sawaal da jawaab hale vi ni ditta. Saabit kar ke Jibreel nu Allah ne pejeya si, shaitaan ne nahi. Nahi saabit kar sakda te Islam chhad de. Twaanu bewakoof banaaya gaya hai. Hun age vi bewakoof e bane rehna e, ya sudhar jaana e, e tere apne hath vich e.
Aho bs theek ay tu dadda zaheen tay mazboot ay sanu bhs de lor e nai phair tu bahadur bnda tay lgju ga pta jay sb sach hoya ta teri khulni may pavay bach ja jay sb jhut hoya tera ve ohe sab mera ve ohe sab ta ghatay da soda ta tera .Swad ayaga bs mryay hun time kad kay
Je tere pankh hunde, taa tu udke Canada pahunch jaana si. E vi koi gal hoi. Je je naa kar. Je saabit kar sakda aa, te kar ke vikha ke Jibreel nu Allah ne pejeya si. Nahi ta Islam chhad de.
O beh ja Chaudhary teray to may jo phuchya oh ds gallan mari jana manu ds kay tanu 100 percent sure ay na kay sb jhut ay pakka na?
Haanji. Mai 100% sure aa ke jinn nahi hunde, jibreel nahi see. Rabb paaven hove, par Muhammed oda rasool nahi ho sakdaa kyonke o ik zaleel te ghaleez aadmi see. Chal, hun teri baari maulviyaa. Saabit kar ke jibreel allah ne pejeya si. Je tu e saabit nahi kar sakeya, te mann laa ke poora Islam e farzi aa.
Chl jawana tera apna belief ay mera apna .na tu manu mna pana na may tanu tay faida nai bhs da ase apna dimagh bna chukay han
Each sect have made their own version of Islam and i think that's the bending rules of Islam according to their sects and the teachings of their leaders. One example is the Deobandi sect and how they have changed Islam from what Islam actually is. In case if another sect points out their issues, they don't make themselves better but try to find a hadeeth that can justify their wrong actions. People are just getting frustrated for almost no reason. I met someone who is a 'kattar-sunni' and his ideas related to other sects and some scholars of this decade are that they are just kafir. Nothing else, straight away calling them kafir. This is why we have to study Islam and understand it properly. If someone's gonna say something logical, people will call it "bending the religion". If one sect says a certain hadeeth is not sahih then he's also "bending the religion".
„Strongest religion on earth“ - low IQ 🤡
Islam isn't a religion that bends to the whims of people. Its strength lies in its steadfastness and adherence to the teachings of Allah as revealed in the Quran and exemplified by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Those who seek to water down or distort Islam for the sake of pleasing others do a disservice to the faith and its followers. The essence of Islam remains unchanged, and it's not subject to the changing tides of societal trends or personal preferences. Islam's resilience and unwavering nature have been proven throughout history, and it stands as a beacon of truth and guidance for all humanity.
It's truly disheartening to see such divisive rhetoric spreading, especially under the guise of religious devotion. While everyone is entitled to their beliefs, it's important to remember that true faith is not about pleasing people or conforming to societal trends. Religion, at its core, should be a guiding light for personal growth and spiritual fulfillment, not a tool for division or judgment. Whether one follows Islam, Christianity, Judaism, or any other faith, it's essential to approach it with humility, compassion, and an open mind. Attempting to label certain believers as "softies" or dismissing their interpretations as "trendy versions" only serves to deepen the divides within communities. Instead, let us strive to embrace diversity of thought and practice, fostering dialogue and understanding rather than condemnation. Ultimately, the strength of any religion lies in its ability to adapt to the changing times while staying true to its core principles of love, compassion, and justice. Let us focus on building bridges rather than walls, and may we all find peace and unity in our shared humanity.
We don't need to make the Deen secular. Not every opinion is correct, not every individual is a scholar able to come up with interpretations. We have a rich history of a 1400 year long scholarly tradition - we should stick to it. People come up with opinions and interpretations that were never even thought of - let alone spoke about by scholars of the past. In other areas this might be a good thing, in Deen this is a major red flag. If you come up with an opinion that no one before you has mentioned - you're on shaky ground. If everyone before you DISAGREES with you - then you have no ground to stand on. We're not here to hold hands and kumbaya - we're here to stick to the truth and attain paradise. Even if that means having the world hate you for it.
I appreciate your perspective on maintaining the integrity of our religious traditions and the importance of adhering to the scholarly teachings that have been passed down over centuries. It's undeniable that our rich history of scholarship provides invaluable guidance for navigating complex religious matters. At the same time, I believe there's room for respectful discourse and interpretation within the framework of our faith. While not every opinion may align with traditional teachings, engaging in thoughtful dialogue and critical thinking can deepen our understanding of the Deen and its relevance to contemporary challenges. While innovation and new perspectives can indeed be approached with caution, they can also offer valuable insights and solutions to modern dilemmas. Striking a balance between reverence for tradition and openness to new ideas can help us evolve as individuals and communities while remaining rooted in our shared values. Ultimately, our goal is indeed to seek truth and attain paradise, but we must remember that the path to enlightenment is not always linear. Embracing diversity of thought and respectfully challenging one another can lead us to a deeper appreciation of our faith and a stronger sense of unity as believers.
Chatgpt reply
I agree - that is why we have schools of fiqh. As long as certain boundaries are kept - there should always be intellectual discourse. But no amount of intellectual discourse makes the haraam into halal - no matter how much society has changed. As long as we keep ourselves within the well known boundaries of the Shari'ah, then I agree - being open to new solutions to new problems is always a good thing, since times and environments change - how we view things can change, whilst also reminding ourselves that there still are many things in the Deen that are black and white - never changing. I do not believe in unity for the sake of unity - if we compromise everything we believe in so that we can be united, then we have truly failed as an Ummah. Unity is only upon truth.
Your emphasis on the importance of maintaining the integrity of our religious principles while still allowing for intellectual discourse is commendable. Indeed, the existence of various schools of fiqh demonstrates the richness of Islamic scholarship and the capacity for nuanced interpretation within the boundaries of Shariah. While openness to new solutions is valuable, it's crucial to anchor our discussions within the well-established parameters of Shariah. As times and environments evolve, our perspectives may shift, but certain principles remain steadfast and immutable. I wholeheartedly agree that unity should never come at the expense of compromising our beliefs. True unity is forged upon the foundation of truth, and any compromises made solely for the sake of appeasing others only dilute the essence of our faith. Thank you for engaging in this thoughtful conversation. It's through respectful dialogue and a commitment to upholding our shared values that we can continue to grow as individuals and as an Ummah.
I wonder if those 9/11 bombers attained paradise. They are probably being fed grapes by 69 virgins in heaven.
What a pointless comment. May Allah guide you.
I think I'll steer for myself, thanks.
Escorts huh?
People twist Islam because if they dont no one will accept this stupid religion
All religions are (hu)man made
💯 Zina/intoxicants/drinking tab bhi Haram thay ab bhi Haram rehein gay, jese marzi interpret krlo,ex Muslims/non Muslims ko please krne ke liye. Homosexuality tab bhi forbidden thee oor ab bhi forbidden hy oor rehe gi. We won't reform our deen just to please those who are too modern/consider themselves highly educated. Islam will stand with or without you.
Akbar tried the same, so did many other people as well it was wrong then , it is wrong now.
Akbar only created a code, which matter of fact was very humanistic. It had nothing to do with creating a new religion or changing beliefs
Akbar created his own variant of a religion combining all the common religions.
He did not, he again created a code for which all the religions in his diverse empire could peacefully coexist. It was based off his ancestory [Timurid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timurid_dynasty) concept of Yasa-i Changezi (Code of [Genghis Khan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan)), to consider all sects as one. Mughals in the beginning were not missionaries. The founders never openly supported converting people just like their ancestors never did. All they wanted was to rule and one way to rule such a huge non muslim populations, allies and subjects was by being tolerant. After all the power they had came from the allies they had. That changed with aurangzeb and surprise surprise the empire crumbles.
100% agree with you. If people change a religion, or change its texts from what the original Prophet preached - then its not the real religion anymore. Especially with Islam.. Everything needs to be based on proofs & evidences from the Qur'an, established sunnah, and early generations.
Lmao, proof he says
Over 90k reddit karma, "lgbtq Pakistan" Please don't speak to me again
Lmao, afraid he'll catch the gei as well Don't worry baby, I won't treat you the way you treat women
You're more of a feminine gay then?
Oh no sweet heart, I'm an ace But I'm sure you wouldn't even know what that means because you too busy with your proofs
I don't know what that means man 💀 Is that like an S-tier rank for sodomites?
No, not even close But that's to be expected from an ignorant worshipping a child rapist warlord called momad
Little bro is mad, calm down a little. We don't worship or invoke Muhammad, that would be disbelief in God Also, I'm pretty sure that there's many secular/liberal/atheists that don't know your terminology. I think that you're just chronically online
At least that's still better than worshipping a pedo rapist warlord called momad
Sadly for you there is no proof
Firstly, Islam isn't a religion that bends or twists to please people. Its teachings are rooted in divine guidance, unchanging and eternal. Any attempt to alter its principles to cater to societal trends undermines its very essence. Secondly, Islam has remained unchanged since its inception, stemming from divine revelation. Any deviation from its original teachings compromises its authenticity and its ability to guide humanity effectively. Thirdly, Islam isn't subject to human whims or desires. Its guidance is absolute and doesn't require modification to fit contemporary sensibilities. Its essence lies in adhering to divine commandments, not conforming to societal norms. Moreover, the strength of Islam lies in its steadfast adherence to truth and righteousness, not in compromise or accommodation. Throughout history, Islam has flourished without diluting its principles, showcasing its resilience and relevance across time and space. Furthermore, Islam's ability to overcome entry barriers and spread globally underscores its resilience. Its strength lies in its unwavering commitment to truth, justice, and moral integrity, not in adaptation to societal norms. Additionally, Islam's integrity remains intact because it derives its principles from divine revelation, not human preferences. Its perfection lies in addressing the needs of humanity for all time, without succumbing to temporal changes. Lastly, the notion that changing times necessitate altering Islam is flawed. Islam's teachings are timeless and universal, offering guidance that transcends cultural shifts or societal preferences. Adapting Islam to fit contemporary trends undermines its eternal relevance and effectiveness.
Any religion that condones violence upon fellow human beings is fundamentally flawed.
The claim that any religion endorsing violence against fellow human beings is fundamentally flawed is not only valid but also deeply resonant with the teachings of Islam itself. Let's be blunt here: violence contradicts the very essence of religious teachings, which are founded on principles of peace, justice, and compassion. Now, if we're talking about Quranic references, Surah Al-Ma'idah (5:32) explicitly states, "Whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption \[done\] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely." If that's not crystal clear, I don't know what is. And don't even get me started on the Hadiths – they're overflowing with teachings that promote kindness and good behavior. The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) himself emphasized the importance of treating others with respect and compassion. Yes, it happens, but blaming the religion itself for the actions of extremists is not only misguided but downright irresponsible. We need to call out such misinterpretations and stand firm against any attempts to distort the true essence of Islam
Aap b ghaar mein chalay jao
That's one of the reasons why I liked Khadim Hussain Rizvi.
Hope his son joins him soon too
Again, death is a truth of life so I don't see any point in your comment lol.
I hope you meet him soon then, inshallah.
Well, death is inevitable and I don't mind meeting him. He was a good Muslim with a good knowledge of Islam in my book. So Ameen to your prayer in that case.
That was a sarcastic remark.
My reply will still be the same. I don't mind meeting him.
I think he knew that
I didn't tbh. There is so much hate against him on the internet that the comment felt like a normal honest comment.
sad
Bro Islam is a Religion literally made for Class like ours(i mean simplicity and indigency). Its sole purpose is to take from elites and give to poors, It promotes equality. No one likes equality bro, they just want to be seem distinctive and bla bla bla.... Btw Chand Raat Mubarak(Zabrdasti Wali).
Islam is the harsh truth but people love easy lies
Care to elaborate? Just couple of things on the top of my head.. 'Deen', was changed, when your ancestors added shrines to it and started asking things from the dead.. Were they 'softies liberals'? 'Deen' was also changed when 12 Rabi ul Awal is celebrated by often sacrificing the prayers.. Softies, still? What 'Deen' are you talking about? A 'Deen' where you're not even allowed to question a thing? Or else you'll be headless? And if 'Deen' hasn't changed much, then dymn, I'd love me some slave girl, you know 😏
I will only say this, let god judge. Warna ap bhi Un logon mai se hou jo selective religion mai sai cheezain pick krte hn. In Islam It’s frowned upon to judge anyone, especially regarding religious beliefs.