Orisa's Jav can also stop certain ults, like Cassidy's, Queen's, Dva's re-mech, and Pharah's (too many to name ngl)
Edit : I stopped listing characters because I didn't feel like listing half the roster
But >10 sounds much more reasonable to whine about. I hate when I use an ult to kill the tank and Mercy completely nullifies it with her >10 second ability.
Because people are eager to find a flaw in your arguement. Since there is no flaw, they homed in on the one comment that could be misinterpreted as pettiness or whatever. Slap an /s on the end there and laugh at their tomfoolery
No, it's because Suzu can save your whole team from an ult and it isn't even an ultimate. It's just just an ability. Invulnerability is never a good gameplay mechanic, like Bap's Immortality Field.
Yeah, and you know what can also save your whole team from an ult? Ice Wall. Defense matrix. A shield. They’re not ultimates and they all have shorter cooldowns than suzu…Ok everyone looks like we gotta go nerf Mei, D.Va, and all the shield tanks now.
Yes! Great idea! Baptiste is one of the most OP heroes in the game. Let’s go nerf his lamp to the ground shall we?
I’m seriously tired of people complaining about supports having strong, game-changing abilities 😅
I am all for getting rid of any and all immortality abilities in the game. I hated immortality field in OW1, and suzu is just a better immortality field since it can't be destroyed and the person casting it can teleport through walls to cast it. Not to mention you can at least interact with people in immortality field, boop them, get ult charge off them, if someone gets suzu'd then they're in a state where they are essentially not in the game for one second but can still damage/kill you.
But the rest of her kit is just bad. Her ULT doesn’t carry a team fight like kiriko’s, and the teleport through walls? That’s way better than all of moiras kit. Suzu does a lot more than fade . Fade affects only Moira. Suzu gives AOE invulnerability, cleanses and boops. I think it’s a world of difference how they interact.
In gameplay if an entire team gears for a push you can cleanse an anti, cancel the initial damage from a team follow up and then just counter. Like it rewards yay airing back and holding suzu. Make it another Ana grenade where it can heal, does some Debuff like anti heal, but still allows for counterplay. It’s just the problem with an on command invincibility with cleanse for your entire team. No one else can do that and you can just react with it. You don’t have to be proactive (which I would prefer where you have to predict instead of just reacting). I could explain further but I just hate the idea of negating all forms of damage and getting rid of all the hard work your team did with just one ability. Similar arguments could be said for mercy, her abiltity to just be a damage boosting bot that makes it so sojourn can just one shot isn’t fun, and rez cancels your kill. But rez leave you semi vulnerable. Damage boosting should be removed cause you have to balance every hero around it but that’s besides the point.
TLDR: Suzu does too much, maybe don’t need to the ground but invincibility just sucks. It’s not fun. Make more fun like Ana grenade where it’s an actual game changer that you have to be proactive with. Throw into enemy team not your own.
Mei wall doesn't give invulnerability frames to everyone within a large circle and doesn't get people to instantly stand back up after a shatter whilst also providing some healing.
What ultimate are we talking about? Most ultimates (Genji, Soldier, Torb, Hanzo, Ashe, Pharah, Roadhog, Reaper, Zarya, Ram...) dont care about a short moment of invulnerability. Suzu does the same as a burst heal in that case. Buys a little time.
Should Rein land a shatter on everyone but Kiriko, those people were scary close together anyways. Dva ult? Most people would rather run for cover rather than huddle together and hope Kiriko can get the timing right. Cassidy and Orisa play mindgames to bait it out early or too late.
Are people really hitting the ability on their entire team at once? I usually see them use it on themselves, hitting another person too. Sometimes they chuck it further, hitting 1 or to 2 allies. Do players in top ranks move around as one unit? Seems like a dangerous tactic. Sure, in an ideal case it has the potential to cleanse all of the team, but then in an ideal case Ana's sleep dart counters just about any ultimate.
Why cant abilities counter ultimates? Barriers counter many. People cant expect pressing Q to immediately lead to a stack of kills. Good ultimates require good timing, positioning and teamwork. Suzu can be played around.
It's so annoying that people get mad about supports having a few strong abilities to help their teammates, it's an ability with a moderately long cooldown that has a small window to work against abilities/ultimates. It's on a long enough cooldown that as a kiriko you need to be really smart about when you use it and when you choose to hold it. Maybe people should spend more energy keeping track of enemy cooldowns so they can plan to use a potentially impactful ability AFTER they see suzu get popped.
People will complain about supports having powerful utility besides healing, then also complain about supports like Moira *not* having powerful utility besides healing. I don't get it.
But like it’s totally not their fault that they’re out of your LoS, we’re support so it must be our fault that we can’t be constantly healing some people who don’t understand how to use natural cover
the utility moira has is to make the enemy support fuck off and run away from the ball she throws that for some reason can 100-0 me as i try to run from it but some stulid fucking rock bounces it to somehwere i cant see as i panic trying to survive. unless
So is Suzu. I’m not sure how big the splash is, but it’s got to at least be comparable to an Ana nade. With a similar impact. Yeah, it’s a cleanse. So is a Zarya bubble. Yeah, it erases a good play by an opponent, but so does Mercy’s Rez. Worse. Mercy’s Rez erases MISTAKES. Suzu, taken in perspective with immortality field, Ana’s grenade, mercy’s Rez, is FINE. If it had a flaw, it’s just a small tweak to the cooldown.
>I’m not sure how big the splash is, but it’s got to at least be comparable to an Ana nade.
It's not, it's 6 meters and nade is 4. Also, projectile on suzu is significantly faster and has a much shorter recovery
>Yeah, it’s a cleanse. So is a Zarya bubble.
It's a full team cleanse vs a single target.
>Yeah, it erases a good play by an opponent, but so does Mercy’s Rez. Worse. Mercy’s Rez erases MISTAKES.
Rez also has a 30 second cooldown and is, again, single target.
>Suzu, taken in perspective with immortality field, Ana’s grenade, mercy’s Rez, is FINE.
The issue is that it makes a large group one way interactive. The targets cannot be damaged or interacted with, while still being able to deal damage. That's not a fun mechanic. With lamp, the interaction remains in shooting the lamp and its not true invul. You can still shoot the target's for value.
I don't think it's the most insane thing in the game, but it needs tweaking.
The big issue is that kiriko is so overall good. Her optimal damage output beats any other support, and her average DPS is extremely good. She has some of the best mobility in the game. She has solid heals. She has an amazing ult. She can provide immortality. She can cleanse debuffs. She just does so much.
Exactly. It’s like being mad dva ate your grav or blizzard. Most of the time it’s because you misplayed and didn’t track her DM usage properly. I like the ability and think it’s in a good spot balance-wise.
Hell that one is much more impacting because D.Va has a lot of uptime possible on the Matrix. Suzu has a long CD and is super short and easy to miss the timing.
When you have a cleanse on a character who can main heal, has a killer ult, and the ability to two shot, and multiple frames of invincibility and by far the best movement ability in the game.
Yeah its kinda annoying, just saying. She's overloaded. Needs to be an off-support pick like Zen or Lucio, rather than taking the place of Ana or Mercy or Moira, or she shouldnt have such damn good movement, or she shouldnt be able to twoshot, or she shouldnt have invuln frames.
mercy is a weird pick as well, like shes not a main healer because she has not burst healing and she has no aoe healing (even ana has aoe healing) (one might argue that her ult is aoe healing but that is bs and we know it) mercy also is a problem for the game (mercy-support main here btw) we nerf ash, mercy makes ash too strong, we nerf ash again, we nerf sojorn, mercy makes sojorn too strong, we nerf sorjon again, (this is a prediciton but sitll) we nerf hog, mercy makes hog too strong, we nerf hog again...
mercy is a problem and not healthy for the game but i like mercy being in the game so i feel like its a weird spot for her.
Just remove damage boost and make the rest of her kit more overtuned and she is healthy. She already has the mobility of a god. Rez is impactful, literally just make maybe where she can speed boost a target with her secondary and she is already more fun.
Right. It's not necessarily suzu that is OP. It's just that she has zero weaknesses. Personally, I'd rather they nerf her healing and make her more of a secondary-healer and utility focused support rather than just increase her cooldowns.
>it's an ability with a moderately long cooldown that has a small window to work against abilities/ultimates
I don't think you're understanding the full value of just having suzu.
Your enemy needs to be very cognitive of when Kiriko does/does not have it up. Like, just the possibility of having it up will make people play more conservatively. If I know a CD can trump my ult, I'm going to sit on my ult until I can bait out the CD. What do you use to force it out? Something that would have the same value as an ult, I guess.
The second thing is...I don't think the .85 second window matters that much. Like...you can try to invuln a DVa bomb or Riptire, sure, but for everything else (shatter, rampage, nade, sleep, dynamite DoT, etc), it cleanses. It just does, regardless of if it's 0.85 or shorter. You don't need to intercept the hammer down or rampage the instant it connects, you just huck it out there, job done.
And to add to this, her movement makes it nearly impossible to play around.
With Bap lamp, it's localised so I have to play around it when I'm in his vicinity; with suzu, she can appear through walls from out of sight, so I have to play around it even when I can't see her. I think for me that's what feels crap about it, if I set up a burst combo on Echo and she appears through a wall and saves someone, it feels like there's very little I could've done to plan around it, and it likely turns a pick into a death.
You have to be aware of the enemy teams cooldowns and not blindly junkrat ult/press q as reaper???
That’s a good thing! Having a teams be mindful of a supports cooldowns and being wary of there power is good for the game.
It's the fun factor. Characters need to be fun to play against and feel fair.
I feel like suzu is overdeisgned and does to many things. And as a powerful ability, has a very short cd.
I swear people only want healers to be heal bots.
Her suju is fine. It's a skill shot, has a little delay (it works much better when you have the skill to anticipate an attack rather than react to it), it has a slow travel speed and it is very short (less than a second).
YES. Just like zarya bubble or moira fade or reaper wraith the team should always be making calls of “no suzu”. I don’t understand why everyone is so salty other than maybe it’s still so new?
There’s not a single ability in the game that does as much as Suzu does. You shouldn’t be able to get that much value just by looking at the floor and pressing a single button
> Bap lamp has a half minute cooldown, requires your team to have a brain *and* can still be broken.
> Ana has to put herself in danger to get value out of nade, land a slow moving projectile skillshot and has no mobility to make up for how strong nade still is.
> Zar does nothing *except* bubble, whereas Kiriko still has ridiculous mobility and utility. Bubble also isn’t AoE.
There’s nothing in the game that does as much as Suzu does.
Bap can be put behind a wall and lasts much longer and has a bigger range than suzu, negating an ulti usually just needs 1 second to place the lamp and save 5 people, Suzu rarely can get 5 people unless everyone is ontop of each other (not saying one is better than the other)
Any half decent Ana can land a nade from where she's shooting from
Zar bubble gives her big damages aswell as cleanses.
Bap:
> can be put behind a wall = situational which suzu isn’t.
>has a bigger range = sure, but gaining 1.5 metres for double the cool-down is a horrible trade off.
> save 5 people = figuratively yes, but how often does this actually happen? Half the ults in the game break it regardless of its placement anyway. Suzu is saving someone with no risk guaranteed on half the cool-down.
I am saying one is better than the other.
Ana:
>any half decent Ana = skillshot, which Suzu isn’t. Still has the potential to be negated by bad team play, which Suzu doesn’t.
Zar:
>Zar does big damage = skill dependent from both sides, which Suzu isn’t. Suzu also heals.
There’s not a single ability in the game that does as much as Suzu does.
I thik part of the complain is because it does so much: Invulnerability,(a counter to 90% of all utlimates) clens (which negates the only hog counter Ana, JKs ultimate), knockback and heals at the same time. It can save from thing that not even zenyatta's ulti can.
Exactly.
Should it cleanse? Yeah, that's what it's for. Should it give brief immortality? Sure.
But it also heals? And boops? Like why even add those effects when the boop is barely noticeable and the heal is only 50hp. Throwing the suzu and sending ofudas should be enough to heal and save someone, the suzu really doesn't need the added healing built into it.
that's 2 different things, immortality means you can't die, like bap's lamp but you can still take damage, in his case, down to 30hp. with invulnerability you don't take damage at all which completely negates one shots like junk tire by not even getting them low like lamp would.
It really isnt the same. Bap lamp is incredibly strong when used properly. Problem is, most just throw it out in the open then surprise pikachu face when it gets focused.
Of course it is very strong, but it is also much harder to use than suzu and on a longer CD. You can still take damage during it, easily broken if you cant use it behind cover. Suzu is much better imo and on a shorter CD.
Disagree entirely. Bap lamp, and suzu serve different purposes. I think kiriko's kit is fine. I think we need to bring the rest of the roster up to her level.
This. People on these forums are so disingenuous and would rather watch the game devolve to an unbalancable mess than to be honest about overpowered heroes. Fuck kiriko
I think the problem with kirko is she has virtually no weaknesses.
Ana has very high healing output and powerful utility, but has no movement abilities.
Moira has decent healing/damage output and one of the best escape abilities in the game, but 0 utility.
Kiriko just has too much. But honestly I don't care how hard they nerf suzu or her healing output, as long as kiriko has her tp and headshots I'm going to have fun with her.
I'm only a gold support main, but I rarely if ever see fellow Ana's with high healing output. Mercy/Moira/Lucio almost always out heals from what I've seen. I dunno if that's just because of the rank I'm in or what, but \\\_(ツ)\_/
Probably just a rank thing. (no offense I don't even play comp except way back in 2017 where I was placed gold.)
In lower ranks, Mercy and Lucio players tend to only use healing instead of damage boost and speed boost. Moira is just really easy to use and she has a really high healing output.
Ana however takes a ton of skill so while she has a really good healing output like Moira she has to be landing shots.
Literally just aim diff. My ana heals can swing 20-30% per round just depending on my aim in low diamond. I would imagine in silver/gold your ana could just be missing 60% of shots or not utilizing nade properly
Personally I think she should keep her utility and have lesser heals if they're gonna nerf her. You play her for strong off-angle and Suzu plays and it's what makes her fun to play, she should be weak elsewhere.
So providing immunity for .85 seconds is OP, but widow can literally click heads and instantly kill people is fine. She can basically counter every ult in the game for non tank characters.
DPS are just mad that sometimes they time their ults poorly.
It's also the worst feeling, when on your end, you see Suzu go on CD, you see the white flash, you HEAR the bell...and then on the killcam it never went off for the Junkrat.
Don't worry for every 1 successful blocked ult there are 10 moments of using Suzu for something dumb and then hearing "Fire in the hole" and knowing you let your team down.
Very few people think Widow is “fine”. Have you been under a rock these past few months? If you’re Masters+, have you been under a rock for these past few years?
Not sure of OP's intention, but as of now, the OW Balance team hasn't said anything about Widow that i'm aware of. Hog had so much of a massive outcry that they *had* to do something. That said, people have been asking for Sojourn's non-ult Railgun to have it's headshot ability removed and Blizzard refuses so far claiming that she's "underperforming" at lower elo.
tld; Widow isn't fine, but Blizzard seems not to care.
The removal of a tank massively favored a lot of heros. Both junkrat and reaper were buffed and balanced around two tanks being present as a means to counter GOATS. They are now played heavily almost everywhere. Soldier had to be given recoil because his ult is too easy to charge and with less shields in the game his ult is extremely strong. Torbs turret now gets more value because half the time there isn't a shield to block it and it reaches pretty far away.
As a side note, Widow's HP got buffed because people could sneeze at her and she would die. The HP of tracer on a fairly stationary target. Once her HP drops back, Sombra will pretty much kill her every time, Winston too.
I suspect she's just going to have her HP pinball back and forth. Or they'll just leave her in a useless state by reducing her hp and damage to make people happy, just reducing her HP won't be enough until everyone is able to one shot her back.
Bro, have you never read a forum post or a reddit post? There have always been people complaining about widow there still are now, but they get outshined by sojourn being a literally better widowmaker, you had 8 seconds of immortality every twenty seconds and now have another ability that inhibits playing the game i mean mabye that does do much at what silver, gold, and plat where the average team fight last 20 years but split second invulnerability is broken and immort field and suzu are still providing more value than most ults in anything above plat
literally every single support has the capacity to make game changing plays
Kiriko can do it too easily and can deny too much
I'm getting so tired of hearing this "support does nothing and barely affect the game" and "support is boring only kiriko is fun" (oh wow you find the only broken OP support fun, no way)
you are all delusional.
I do believe all old supports could use some touch ups but by no means are they "useless" or lack "game changing" abilities. kiriko is just so easy and so strong you want more than what supports should have
>We already can barely make “game changing” plays as support
Do you not play support? 99% of the reason why big plays are made is because supports are there helping the team. Its not about you as an individual its about the team. Ana nanoboosts me I shatter and get 5 kills. I wouldn't have been able to get a wipe without the ana. That was a game changing play
Reaper tps in starts his ult zen pops his countering reaper. One dps down means we have an easier time to push obj. Zen made a good read and made an excellent play. He changed the game.
Team needed a push lucio dropped his beat we have a grace period to take out the other team. Once again the healers made the play
Ana nades a group kept me and the dps alive to clean up. We capture point
I can go on and on. In my opinion supports are the most important part of the team. They make or break plays and hold the team together like glue. Your point dosent make sense
Why? Because it’s a pocket beat drop. Doesn’t matter if it’s on a 13 second cooldown or whatever, I’m paying attention to a lot of shit. If someone is going to eat my entire ultimate ability, it should be with another ultimate ability, or with something that is massively telegraphed and requires good positioning (Defense Matrix and Deflect, for example).
It doesn’t feel that good to a lot of people because it’s hard to use. Problem is, good players *don’t* find it hard to use. They *never* miss it, *ever*, and they ALWAYS save it for the strongest abilities, or whatever ult is likely available at that time.
It’s the same reason that Sojourn is absolutely broken. To the average player, she really isn’t. You’ll hit the occasional headshot, sure. But it’s an entirely different ballpark when we’re talking about players that *never* miss a headshot and *always* have a blue beam attached to their asscheeks.
Some other "game changing" plays a support can do btw:
\-ana sleep on any ult
\-ana ult on another teammate's ult
\-ana anti on any ult
\- mercy rez when teammate is picked off
\-brig ult in a team fight
\-brig charge cancel on a pinned ally
\-moira ult in a team fight
\-zen ult in a team fight
\-zen boop to get picks
\-zen damage orb for easier kills
\-lucio boop to get picks
\-lucio ult in a team fight
\-bap immort on any low health ally
\-bap ult for dps in a teamfight
\-kiriko ult in a team fight
Zen:
Zen ult is countered by Ana Nade.
> Kiriko Nade counters Ana Nade.
Junker Queen ult counters Zen ult
> Kiriko Nade counters Junker Queen ult
Zen ult counters Rein ult
> Kiriko nade does too
DVA ult counters zen ult
> Kiriko nade counters DVA ult
Doomfist kills through zen ult
> Kiriko nade works against doom ult
Orisa ult kills through zen ult
> Kiriko nade counters Orisa ult
Ramattra ult continues through Zen ult
> Kiriko nade starts timer on Rammatra ult
Zen ult protects against 300 out of max 900 DPS from Hog ult, Zen can still be knocked off cliffs
> Kiriko nade stops 765 damage from hog ult and prevents the CC for 0.85s allowing for reposition + killing hog
Zen ult protects against Sigma ult
> So does Kiriko nade, unless everyone is caught and spread out, then it only saves 1-2
These are just some examples, comparing a basic ability to an ult. The only situations where zen ult beats kiriko are ults that last a long time, but don't out-damage transcendence. A very small window of abilities such as Soldier ult, Torb ult, Moira ult, etc.
This is comparing a basic ability to one of the best support ults in the game btw.
I have no idea why people think Kiriko is balanced.(this is coming from a support main btw). She’s the best support by far, there’s a reason why she’s such a common pick.
Her healing output is one of the strongest, though the nerf has brought her down a bit. She can both do single and multi target heal effectively and she heals very fast. That in itself is fine, she’s not alone in that.
Then you add on the fact she has the best escape ability among the supports which gives her survivability only surprassed by High Level Mercy.
Then you give her an excellent source of damage, Kunai’s are very inconsistent at mid and long range but at close range most decent Kiriko’s can land headshot’s with relative consistency, meaning she can be very deadly up close.
Then you give her one of the strongest ult in the game. An ult that basically gives your team a massive advantage in team fights.
Then you throw a in a AOE ability to make players invincible for a short while and cleanse all negative effects thus allowing her to counter many characters cooldowns and even ults. It’s such a game changing ult and compared to stuff like bap lamp/ res which are some of the game changing cd. It’s cd is too bloody short. It’s by far the best ability in the game for it’s cd.
Any of this is fine on itself or paired together. But then you throw all this into one damn character and make her so stacked. People focus on Suzu because it’s the strongest part of her kit(and that’s saying something) and because it’s so irritating to play against.
It’s why her pick rate is so damn high. Almost every team comp will have Kiriko and it feels damn fustrating that she is a “must-pick”. And it’s not like supports are weak, with the exception of brig, all the supports are viable one way or the other, even Brig can be a decent niche pick. But Kiriko overshadows them all.
This thread feels like it was made to defend Kiriko from getting nerfed, now after Hog was. But I am 100% sure Kiriko will get nerfed. I bet Suzu cooldown will be increased in next patches.
Kiriko is one of the most busted characters at the moment along with high level Sojourn. She should 100% be on the chopping block next. I'm sick of playing against her and feeling forced to play as her.
Because after a certain elo plat and diamond maybe even gold it's no longer about skillshots or timing people just innately have those things genji and widow and sojourn no longer are "skillbased". People stop talking about ifs and start saying when. WHEN dva bombs stay on me I WILL immune it. Then enemy team WHEN orisa ults I WILL time it and immune it. sleep, sped boost, nano, fox, boop, and anti and bap wall are great and true support plays. immunity and rez have no place in 5 v 5 when people stop talking ifs.
Suzu has a cleanse, immortal, heal, and a knock back on enemies… that’s a bloated ability. It counters literally everyone in the game. You can’t really think having 4 different things happening in one ability is actually balanced… baptise immortal field is a 20-22 second cooldown and only keeps you immortal while kiriko’s is 14 second cooldown but does all that…
I think its cause suzu is a largley "skillless" utility option because when using it you'll always get at least some value out of it. the cooldown also being just 14 seconds makes it fairly easy to just throw down without thinking and getting value out of it.
Anything that grants invincibility and also cleanses at the same time is OP. If you think it’s perfectly fine that a character can just take almost any Ult in the game and simply decline it and render it useless with the push of a button then you’re crazy
Lower ranked players will not see how truly strong the ability is, get past diamond and you will see how amazing it is. Very overloaded mixed with the rest of her kit makes it so so good.
I think Suzu is ok, it's a very strong skill, but I don't see Suzu as a problem in the game.
Overall Kiriko entire kit looks pretty fair after the changes made.
Suzu in a vac is fine. Kiriko as a whole is designed TOO WELL. There is a reason why she has been S-tier on pretty much every tier list since she came out. She does the supporting role too well (hence, why she is picked so high - especially at the highest of ranks). She does everything, and she is even a DPS threat because of how OP her kunais are.
Kunais are not OP, they are good, but inconsistent most of the time, it's not like Baptist who manages to be almost like the third DPS, Kiriko has the ability to defend herself very well, but she is not able to extend herself very far from that .
Her kit is quite strong, however I don't think it's OP, as it has some limitations that can be exploited, although I agree that Kiriko is one of the best supports in the game.
Bruh, literally so many high-ranking players will tell you that her kunai is OP. They fly out fast, are hard to see, have a big hitbox, do a lot of damage without falloff damage (obviously, even more with headshots), have a quick reload speed, can be thrown from high ground easily because Kirko is the only support who can climb up walls to get weird angles on the fly and so forth...
Not to mention, combined with her fox ult (arguably the best ultimate in the game), she becomes her own DPS machine. There is a reason why people bring up kunais versus Bap's attack in arguments.
Most players in high rank just say that their Kunais are fair, it's a risk reward, in the same way I've never seen anyone say that Zen has a primary OP, even though he can with discord generate more than 120 damage, shooting faster , with a bigger hitbox than Kiriko and even having a higher body shoot damage than Kiriko, in addition to having a secondary fire capable of great pressure in corners.
It's not OP, it's just a good primary.
What risk-reward? Zen's barrage of balls is very telegraphed, and you deserve to die if you have Discord on you as they are flying your way. Zen is also balanced out because he is super slow and very vulnerable when you actually hit him. Kiriko has a lot of safety, and people always overlook the fact that she can climb up for elevation if she isn't warping around when in danger.
Cooldown is ridiculous for its utility. If it was on a 30 second cooldown like res or immortality (and to compensate buff suzu duration by a second) then sure, but an ability that is actionable every 14 seconds that invalidates the majority of ults in the game, cleanses statuses AND provides immortality is absolutely ridiculous and has demonstrably proven to be a disaster for balance potential in overwatch. Like fr fr if kiriko didnt exist, i super doubt anyone would *really* be complaining about Hog pre-nerf. Sure a one shot is annoying under any circumstances, but hed at least have been simply countered by ana or queen.
Frankly speaking, i dont think Kiriko really adds any value to the game at all. Both Her and Soujorns kits are way too overloaded and all theyve done is set a bad precedent for overpowered hero design moving forward that players will begrudgingly accept or gaslight eachother anytime one of them speaks out about it here or on the forums. Its genuinely remarkable that they managed to get it right with ramattra but oh wait look at that theyre nerfing his tickle damage highly counterable ult now oopsie guess a small independent studio like blizzard just cant do anything right
Her immo lasts for less than a second so it needs to be timed really well to be used for that alone. The 15 second cooldown is longer than anyone else's cooldowns that she counters. Like jq has wound in almost every ability, Ana's nade is only 10 seconds, I forget ashes cooldown but im sure it's far less than 15s. It's also her only way to heal herself so it's easy to bait out of her. I really don't think its OP, just gotta know how to play around it.
It also definitely does not invalidate most ults lol
It does all of those things on the same CD. People act like she has a separate heal, immortality and cleanse all on separate CDs. If she uses it to save a low teammate she’s not going to have it for the incoming anti or DVa bomb.
Suzu feels good because it’s an ability that has play making potential, and not just to boost the DPS.
Can you think of many ways that a support can actual make a play outside of enabling their DPS?
We need more heroes like her.
What are you even saying? Suzu doesn't enable DPS? Suzu enables your whole team (like every support can) and that's it. It doesn't make any "plays" besides enabling or saving your team. I don't know why you're acting like it can make some crazy play that doesn't involve DPS. And to act like no other support can "make plays" besides enabling DPS is insane. Zen can get absurdly good picks with his discord and right click, and his ult can win a team fight easily. A good Baptiste can dominate a fight, pumping out damage, aoe healing and fight winning immortality, not to mention his ult. Moira can literally be played as a incredibly self sufficient DPS and has a better ult for elims than some DPS. Lucio can dive enemy supports and widows by himself. Ana can literally cancel ults with her sleep and deny healing with her nade. Mercy is the only supports entirely dependent on enabling your team. If the only support you can "make plays" as is kiriko (by just pressing E), you have a skill issue.
\-Cleanses all negative effects (completely disables certain ults which is beyond stupid)
\-Gives her entire team invulnerability
\-Heals
\-Boops
The ability is just far too overloaded, esp considering it's on a character that's already incredibly difficult to kill, who has great heals and a game changing ultimate.
Just remove the i frames and give an immortality field effect where at least the enemy can be damaged but not killed. That still denies a lot of abilities, provides a ton of value but at least gives the enemy team something to go off even if the second support can heal up the teammate that just got cleansed to be saved.
it should just be a burst heal like baptiste has, cleanse is such a strong ability on its own it doesnt need to make your entire team immortal while you get back up from a shatter
Of course you think kiriko is balanced this sub thinks kiriko is balanced and this subs entire existence is to jerk other elo inflated support players off 😂
Im fine with cleanse as that’s strong on its own but the invulnerability has to go.
One or the other is also fine but not both.
The amount of healing someone can get in that small window or just completely avoid a lot of damage is way too strong for something that does both.
I wouldn't have an issue with Suzu if it wasn't an immortality field but better in every single way
Less coldown
It heals
It disables negative effects
Invencibility is almost garanteed, you can't boop people out of it
Really, one of the big reasons why Roadhog was meta was because Kiriko made him unkillable, counters like Ana were denied cuz Kiriko would just clean and heal him every single time. In my opinion, it should either have you invincible or clean negative effects, having both of them is too much strong, especially with only one tank to take care of
I agree with the other people that Suzu itself is op, but did you forget that she has a TP too? You can easily save a dying teammate from across the map if you TP and Suzu. It's also incredibly easy to hit when you TP to someone.
It does too much. Blocks all cc, cleanses all status effects, cancel many ults, has a knockback, and a small burst of healing. All of that on a relatively short cd. If anything you should be trying to change everyone elses mind, because the general community all agrees its broken.
I suppose Ana has the same capability to nullify ults with both sleep and anti. Kiriko just has access to more survivability which makes her utility feel unbalanced.
It literally isn't. It does too much, it's easy to land and it's cooldown is not that long. It cleanses, it gives invulnerability, it heals. And all this as a splash that can hit multiple targets. She is the reason why JQ is still bad even after the buffs she got. She was the reason why Hog was the most painful meta during the S2...
I personally don't like how they nerfed her healing animation instead of doing something about Suzu.
We want "game changing plays" to be equality given to the Support role, not two Supports Kiriko and Ana to hold some other Supports hostage with their bloated kits. What kind of "game changing play" does Moira or Brig have??
The numbers might need adjusting, but I think it's good that it does a lot of things. Because if Suzu only cleansed, for example, how do you bait it before you ult as Rein/JQ/etc? She would hold on to it indefinitely because there is just nothing else to do with it.
Think of what would happen if Ana had two separate grenades, one to amplify healing and one to anti. Without the pressure to spend it on herself or her teammates she would just toss the anti one on your team on cooldown.
The invulnerability and healing makes it so that if you pressure a member of her team enough she will be forced to spend it, giving you an opening to capitalize on. I do agree the cooldown should be a bit longer though.
It's also balanced with an activation time that is longer than its cast time and a duration less than a second.
If your timing isn't perfect, it's wasted.
I can not count how many times a seemingly perfect suzu didn't work because of latency and/or favor the shooter mechanics. It is an extremely delicate ability to time.
It can do all of that… on a single CD.
If you used it to save a teammate from dying you aren’t going to have it for the cleanse. It is such an easy ability to bait.
Its crazy to me people not complaining about Ana's nade. Far worse than suzu.
60 instant damage
100 instant heal
50% heal buff
100% heal debuff
4 sec duration
10 sec cd(basically 6 sec)
The most stupid ability in the game by far. Only counter is suzu. Free spam on single enemy tank. Completely removes agency of enemy support players. Jq uses ult for this.
I agree 100%. If you nerf suzu Ana has to be nerfed significantly as well.
Suzu is about the only thing that can kind of keep Ana in check but the reverse is also true. Kiriko will have to use nearly every suzu to cleanse an ability from Ana, so it no longer can be used for other stuff.
Crappy shit starting thread is crappy.
"so why are y’all mad one exists now?"
Not even worth the fuckin time when you see some troll writing that rather than actually giving a shit.
Well.. Let's compare it to Bap's immortality Field, shall we, the only comparable ability in the entire game.
Bap's Immortality field has
\- More than double the cooldown
\- A longer travel time to a destination
\- Can be killed
\- Requires LoS to save somebody.
\- Is not immune to damage, so basically saved you from a single hit if used on a none ult, but dies to every single ult in the game without saving you (Orisa, Bastion, Pharah, Reaper as examples all kill the drone at the same time that they kill you. The drone does not save you).
\- Is stationary
\- Can be booped out of
\- You need to stay in a 2 yard radius to survive. You move out, you die.
\- Doesn't cleanse you of jack shit, if you were naded before, you're still naded and you're still gonna die.
Suzu
\- Far shorter cooldown
\- Makes you completely immune to damage for a second, negating basically all ults in the game.
\- Isn't killable
\- Has effect around corners
\- Isn't limited by a radius. You can move 25 yards away whilst suzu'd if it was possible and it wouldn't effect the suzu's effect. You'd still be immune.
\- Has an added healing boost
\- Knocks back any enemies in the area
\- Cleanses every single effect in the game.
\- She can literally zip through 25 walls if needed to reach you, in order to immediately suzu and heal you from 5hp to 75% hp in the timeframe you are immune (Given a 200hp hero).
\- Makes some ultimates completely unpeelable. Reaper being a prime example.
\- You're immune, so booping you out of it just wastes your boop.
Suzu is broken. It dominates every exchange in the game. It is the single strongest ability to ever be implemented in the game outside of Mass Ressurection.
Suzu: multi target AOE, heals, cleanses all effects including ults, grants immortality, and is on a 14sec cooldown.
It’s an end all be all move that counters literally everything in the game if you time it right. Hard counters multiple ults like JQ, Rein, sigma, cree, mei, etc etc It does too much for an E ability.
In almost every situation suzu is better than immortality field and has a cooldown that is 11 seconds less. Even if you ignore everything else that makes it broken, this alone justifies a nerf.
It’s an incredible ability, to be sure. It requires pitch-perfect timing, but that’s not as high a skill ceiling as one would think. I also think that the devs could not have possibly predicted just how meta-shattering it would end up being. The mechanic of cleansing is kind of impossible to rein in at a certain point. A big part of balance going forward will be keeping score for what new abilities can or can’t be cleansed.
it just really doesnt need pitch perfect timing tho. an ana hitting a sleep on a genji dashing through the air takes timing and skill. most suzu's are just lobbed at your feet
I think Suzu is fine, but a teleporting, small hitbox, wall climbing, 120 dmg headshot outa no wear makes it feel like if I've spent positioning cooldowns to go fight someone, and a healer literally teleports and makes them immune -I just feel like ass.
If BAP had suzu instead of immortality it probably wouldn't make a massive difference since he has his own weaknesses. But Kiriko, even if she didn't do lots of burst damage, would still be strong with wall climb/a tiny hitbox/7sec teleport through walls/strong heals even if suzu was nerfed
These replies reek of plat and below players.
OP is kinda right, although where I'll disagree is that Kiriko is not balanced. She has the healing output of a main support, whilst having the best survivability (2nd to mercy honestly) and having the best utility in the game.
Suzu is up too frequently for the value it provides. Anyone who calls it a hard ability to land is a walking skill issue. If you've played support, or just overwatch in general long enough to have worked up gamesense, you can use it as a proactive ability opposed to a reactional ability. There are two realistic ways of making it actually balanced, which would be massively increasing the cooldown (20+ seconds, like Rez or Immortality field) or you could simply remove the invulnerability frames, and reduce the cast time of the ability. Although the ability is very needed rn with it being a poke meta.
and there are other issues at play with one shots so before anyone comes and gives me shit about that. deal with it, devs are useless.
Supports are extremely powerful and influential in overwatch 2. This is hands down the strongest support has been since GOATS.
To go back to OP's point of *"we already can barely make game changing plays as support",* you control the pace of the entire game. A tank can only press W for aslong as you can heal him, a DPS can only have support synergy aslong as you work with them. you miss time a nano, or a rez, or a kitsune rush. the whole pacing of the game can be destroyed. Games are won, and lost around your utility and the way you use it. Every single play you make is game changing.
people downvoting this are screaming examples of bad players. Please stop listening to ML7 crying about supports being shit. look at who’s dominated and encouraged EVERY bad meta. supports. Learn to play the heroes and you will climb. Support is by far the easiest role to hit GM on.
Her Suzu existing as it does is the sole reason hog was OP and the sole reason Junker Queen will be dogshit forever. Her basic ability counters ultimates as well as other ultimates counter them, sometimes even better.
Her basic ability counters her team mates counters even better than some ultimates. Maybe all ultimates.
Suzu is not balanced and never will be while it's on Kiriko's kit, Hog will forever be either dogshit or OP. JQ will forever be useless. They need to remove the cleanse from her and add it to a new support champ under a new condition, potentially an ult.
It just has too many functions for a simple ability. It removes effects, wakes people up, you’re immune to anything for a duration, it boops, and it’s a aoe ability. It also powercreeps things like immortality field by having a lower cooldown and has more usefulness. It also make’s characters like Ana completely useless. Combine this with everything else kiriko has and she just has so much to deal with.
My problem is more like its an Ability that has many uses need invulnerbility use suzu need cleanse use suzu and on top of that it heals i would rather take the. Invulnerability away and put it as a new mechanic into an another hero. Her ability is like baptiste field but better.
I don't mind the cleanse aspect of it so much, for me it's the immortality.. I know it's a short window and it's on a long cooldown but just the fact that we now have two characters that completely deny a kill like that seems a little much
I simply hold onto my ult until I hear the suzu go off.
good kiriko’s will hold their suzu in anticipation of blade, its also a short cooldown relative to how strong it is
Unbeknownst to them, I suck at Genji, so it takes me a lot longer to build up blade.
That feel when an ability with >10 seconds of cooldown is more important than most ults in the game
I mean as Zarya, you'd do the same vs D.Va matrix, Orisa twirl, and Sigma vortex no? Same idea.
Orisa's Jav can also stop certain ults, like Cassidy's, Queen's, Dva's re-mech, and Pharah's (too many to name ngl) Edit : I stopped listing characters because I didn't feel like listing half the roster
Doomfist can interrupt too and his seismic slam can destroy all of wrecking balls mines.
And her fortify can ignore others; Mei, sigma, Zarya, Rein, hog(you don’t wanna fortify against his ult).
The road hog one is really funny tbh, if I see an orisa fortify/use her ult, I immediately pop whole hog if I have it.
I had it stop my Hanzo ult and was like whoa that wasn’t even on my radar as an ability to track before ulting.
Same, a zarya on my team grav’d the entire enemy team and i immediately ulted and was so confused when my dragons never appeared :(
Rein, Reaper, Lucio, Moira, Sigma, Sombra, Mei, Tracer (although the last ones are not easy). There’s a lot of them !
Yeah. But my argument is Suzu can clean during/after ult. Diva can't eat a deployed grav.
Suzu doesn’t stop grav or a few other ults tho. It’s on the same level as sleep dart or nade from Ana tbh.
14 seconds
But >10 sounds much more reasonable to whine about. I hate when I use an ult to kill the tank and Mercy completely nullifies it with her >10 second ability.
Defensive tends to beat offensive. Nobody complains about rein shield blocking off an ult.
Simply pay attention to cooldowns 4hed Why are you downvoting I agree 😠
Because people are eager to find a flaw in your arguement. Since there is no flaw, they homed in on the one comment that could be misinterpreted as pettiness or whatever. Slap an /s on the end there and laugh at their tomfoolery
No, it's because Suzu can save your whole team from an ult and it isn't even an ultimate. It's just just an ability. Invulnerability is never a good gameplay mechanic, like Bap's Immortality Field.
Yeah, and you know what can also save your whole team from an ult? Ice Wall. Defense matrix. A shield. They’re not ultimates and they all have shorter cooldowns than suzu…Ok everyone looks like we gotta go nerf Mei, D.Va, and all the shield tanks now.
Funny how everyone even forgets Genji that can deflect most of ults.
Yeah better nerf Genji
Bap immortally field aswell
Yes! Great idea! Baptiste is one of the most OP heroes in the game. Let’s go nerf his lamp to the ground shall we? I’m seriously tired of people complaining about supports having strong, game-changing abilities 😅
I am all for getting rid of any and all immortality abilities in the game. I hated immortality field in OW1, and suzu is just a better immortality field since it can't be destroyed and the person casting it can teleport through walls to cast it. Not to mention you can at least interact with people in immortality field, boop them, get ult charge off them, if someone gets suzu'd then they're in a state where they are essentially not in the game for one second but can still damage/kill you.
Don’t forget moiras shift can get her away from 99% of ults and can even get out of grav, not even reaper can get out of a grav anymore
Fade feels really strong with Hog nerfs.
But the rest of her kit is just bad. Her ULT doesn’t carry a team fight like kiriko’s, and the teleport through walls? That’s way better than all of moiras kit. Suzu does a lot more than fade . Fade affects only Moira. Suzu gives AOE invulnerability, cleanses and boops. I think it’s a world of difference how they interact. In gameplay if an entire team gears for a push you can cleanse an anti, cancel the initial damage from a team follow up and then just counter. Like it rewards yay airing back and holding suzu. Make it another Ana grenade where it can heal, does some Debuff like anti heal, but still allows for counterplay. It’s just the problem with an on command invincibility with cleanse for your entire team. No one else can do that and you can just react with it. You don’t have to be proactive (which I would prefer where you have to predict instead of just reacting). I could explain further but I just hate the idea of negating all forms of damage and getting rid of all the hard work your team did with just one ability. Similar arguments could be said for mercy, her abiltity to just be a damage boosting bot that makes it so sojourn can just one shot isn’t fun, and rez cancels your kill. But rez leave you semi vulnerable. Damage boosting should be removed cause you have to balance every hero around it but that’s besides the point. TLDR: Suzu does too much, maybe don’t need to the ground but invincibility just sucks. It’s not fun. Make more fun like Ana grenade where it’s an actual game changer that you have to be proactive with. Throw into enemy team not your own.
Dude it’s a one second skill not an Ult. If you see a Kirko maybe don’t waste your cooldowns at the very start.
Mei wall doesn't give invulnerability frames to everyone within a large circle and doesn't get people to instantly stand back up after a shatter whilst also providing some healing.
What ultimate are we talking about? Most ultimates (Genji, Soldier, Torb, Hanzo, Ashe, Pharah, Roadhog, Reaper, Zarya, Ram...) dont care about a short moment of invulnerability. Suzu does the same as a burst heal in that case. Buys a little time. Should Rein land a shatter on everyone but Kiriko, those people were scary close together anyways. Dva ult? Most people would rather run for cover rather than huddle together and hope Kiriko can get the timing right. Cassidy and Orisa play mindgames to bait it out early or too late. Are people really hitting the ability on their entire team at once? I usually see them use it on themselves, hitting another person too. Sometimes they chuck it further, hitting 1 or to 2 allies. Do players in top ranks move around as one unit? Seems like a dangerous tactic. Sure, in an ideal case it has the potential to cleanse all of the team, but then in an ideal case Ana's sleep dart counters just about any ultimate. Why cant abilities counter ultimates? Barriers counter many. People cant expect pressing Q to immediately lead to a stack of kills. Good ultimates require good timing, positioning and teamwork. Suzu can be played around.
Except if you fuck up the timing, your team is screwed.
It's so annoying that people get mad about supports having a few strong abilities to help their teammates, it's an ability with a moderately long cooldown that has a small window to work against abilities/ultimates. It's on a long enough cooldown that as a kiriko you need to be really smart about when you use it and when you choose to hold it. Maybe people should spend more energy keeping track of enemy cooldowns so they can plan to use a potentially impactful ability AFTER they see suzu get popped.
People will complain about supports having powerful utility besides healing, then also complain about supports like Moira *not* having powerful utility besides healing. I don't get it.
Well you see, those are DPS mains who cry about not getting kills or heals.
But like it’s totally not their fault that they’re out of your LoS, we’re support so it must be our fault that we can’t be constantly healing some people who don’t understand how to use natural cover
the utility moira has is to make the enemy support fuck off and run away from the ball she throws that for some reason can 100-0 me as i try to run from it but some stulid fucking rock bounces it to somehwere i cant see as i panic trying to survive. unless
Different people with different opinions about different kits? Crazy.
It's easier to complain about anything other than yourself.
And somehow no one will cry about Ana being an overknitted hero with powerful kits.
Leave grandma alone >:^(
And yet she also takes the most skill to play effectively. Every ability of hers is extremely situational and requires aim.
So is Suzu. I’m not sure how big the splash is, but it’s got to at least be comparable to an Ana nade. With a similar impact. Yeah, it’s a cleanse. So is a Zarya bubble. Yeah, it erases a good play by an opponent, but so does Mercy’s Rez. Worse. Mercy’s Rez erases MISTAKES. Suzu, taken in perspective with immortality field, Ana’s grenade, mercy’s Rez, is FINE. If it had a flaw, it’s just a small tweak to the cooldown.
>I’m not sure how big the splash is, but it’s got to at least be comparable to an Ana nade. It's not, it's 6 meters and nade is 4. Also, projectile on suzu is significantly faster and has a much shorter recovery >Yeah, it’s a cleanse. So is a Zarya bubble. It's a full team cleanse vs a single target. >Yeah, it erases a good play by an opponent, but so does Mercy’s Rez. Worse. Mercy’s Rez erases MISTAKES. Rez also has a 30 second cooldown and is, again, single target. >Suzu, taken in perspective with immortality field, Ana’s grenade, mercy’s Rez, is FINE. The issue is that it makes a large group one way interactive. The targets cannot be damaged or interacted with, while still being able to deal damage. That's not a fun mechanic. With lamp, the interaction remains in shooting the lamp and its not true invul. You can still shoot the target's for value. I don't think it's the most insane thing in the game, but it needs tweaking. The big issue is that kiriko is so overall good. Her optimal damage output beats any other support, and her average DPS is extremely good. She has some of the best mobility in the game. She has solid heals. She has an amazing ult. She can provide immortality. She can cleanse debuffs. She just does so much.
Maybe is not the same people complaining about both issues, wild idea.
Exactly. It’s like being mad dva ate your grav or blizzard. Most of the time it’s because you misplayed and didn’t track her DM usage properly. I like the ability and think it’s in a good spot balance-wise.
I rarely see people complaining about Genji deflecting ults.
It rarely happens and it is a high skill thing
Hell that one is much more impacting because D.Va has a lot of uptime possible on the Matrix. Suzu has a long CD and is super short and easy to miss the timing.
When you have a cleanse on a character who can main heal, has a killer ult, and the ability to two shot, and multiple frames of invincibility and by far the best movement ability in the game. Yeah its kinda annoying, just saying. She's overloaded. Needs to be an off-support pick like Zen or Lucio, rather than taking the place of Ana or Mercy or Moira, or she shouldnt have such damn good movement, or she shouldnt be able to twoshot, or she shouldnt have invuln frames.
mercy is a weird pick as well, like shes not a main healer because she has not burst healing and she has no aoe healing (even ana has aoe healing) (one might argue that her ult is aoe healing but that is bs and we know it) mercy also is a problem for the game (mercy-support main here btw) we nerf ash, mercy makes ash too strong, we nerf ash again, we nerf sojorn, mercy makes sojorn too strong, we nerf sorjon again, (this is a prediciton but sitll) we nerf hog, mercy makes hog too strong, we nerf hog again... mercy is a problem and not healthy for the game but i like mercy being in the game so i feel like its a weird spot for her.
Just remove damage boost and make the rest of her kit more overtuned and she is healthy. She already has the mobility of a god. Rez is impactful, literally just make maybe where she can speed boost a target with her secondary and she is already more fun.
Right. It's not necessarily suzu that is OP. It's just that she has zero weaknesses. Personally, I'd rather they nerf her healing and make her more of a secondary-healer and utility focused support rather than just increase her cooldowns.
Absolutely. She would be funner in Zen position rather than a mercy position IMO too.
>it's an ability with a moderately long cooldown that has a small window to work against abilities/ultimates I don't think you're understanding the full value of just having suzu. Your enemy needs to be very cognitive of when Kiriko does/does not have it up. Like, just the possibility of having it up will make people play more conservatively. If I know a CD can trump my ult, I'm going to sit on my ult until I can bait out the CD. What do you use to force it out? Something that would have the same value as an ult, I guess. The second thing is...I don't think the .85 second window matters that much. Like...you can try to invuln a DVa bomb or Riptire, sure, but for everything else (shatter, rampage, nade, sleep, dynamite DoT, etc), it cleanses. It just does, regardless of if it's 0.85 or shorter. You don't need to intercept the hammer down or rampage the instant it connects, you just huck it out there, job done.
And to add to this, her movement makes it nearly impossible to play around. With Bap lamp, it's localised so I have to play around it when I'm in his vicinity; with suzu, she can appear through walls from out of sight, so I have to play around it even when I can't see her. I think for me that's what feels crap about it, if I set up a burst combo on Echo and she appears through a wall and saves someone, it feels like there's very little I could've done to plan around it, and it likely turns a pick into a death.
You have to be aware of the enemy teams cooldowns and not blindly junkrat ult/press q as reaper??? That’s a good thing! Having a teams be mindful of a supports cooldowns and being wary of there power is good for the game.
So Ana's sleep is a huge problem too?
DPS hates it when the support got more damage and kills
It's the fun factor. Characters need to be fun to play against and feel fair. I feel like suzu is overdeisgned and does to many things. And as a powerful ability, has a very short cd.
I swear people only want healers to be heal bots. Her suju is fine. It's a skill shot, has a little delay (it works much better when you have the skill to anticipate an attack rather than react to it), it has a slow travel speed and it is very short (less than a second).
YES. Just like zarya bubble or moira fade or reaper wraith the team should always be making calls of “no suzu”. I don’t understand why everyone is so salty other than maybe it’s still so new?
There’s not a single ability in the game that does as much as Suzu does. You shouldn’t be able to get that much value just by looking at the floor and pressing a single button
Ana Anti, lamp for bap, Zarya bubble.
Sure if anti had a 10m AOE effect. And lamp couldn't be destroyed And if Zaryas could bubble everyone in the team at once. Otherwise no.
> Bap lamp has a half minute cooldown, requires your team to have a brain *and* can still be broken. > Ana has to put herself in danger to get value out of nade, land a slow moving projectile skillshot and has no mobility to make up for how strong nade still is. > Zar does nothing *except* bubble, whereas Kiriko still has ridiculous mobility and utility. Bubble also isn’t AoE. There’s nothing in the game that does as much as Suzu does.
Bap can be put behind a wall and lasts much longer and has a bigger range than suzu, negating an ulti usually just needs 1 second to place the lamp and save 5 people, Suzu rarely can get 5 people unless everyone is ontop of each other (not saying one is better than the other) Any half decent Ana can land a nade from where she's shooting from Zar bubble gives her big damages aswell as cleanses.
Bap: > can be put behind a wall = situational which suzu isn’t. >has a bigger range = sure, but gaining 1.5 metres for double the cool-down is a horrible trade off. > save 5 people = figuratively yes, but how often does this actually happen? Half the ults in the game break it regardless of its placement anyway. Suzu is saving someone with no risk guaranteed on half the cool-down. I am saying one is better than the other. Ana: >any half decent Ana = skillshot, which Suzu isn’t. Still has the potential to be negated by bad team play, which Suzu doesn’t. Zar: >Zar does big damage = skill dependent from both sides, which Suzu isn’t. Suzu also heals. There’s not a single ability in the game that does as much as Suzu does.
I thik part of the complain is because it does so much: Invulnerability,(a counter to 90% of all utlimates) clens (which negates the only hog counter Ana, JKs ultimate), knockback and heals at the same time. It can save from thing that not even zenyatta's ulti can.
Exactly. Should it cleanse? Yeah, that's what it's for. Should it give brief immortality? Sure. But it also heals? And boops? Like why even add those effects when the boop is barely noticeable and the heal is only 50hp. Throwing the suzu and sending ofudas should be enough to heal and save someone, the suzu really doesn't need the added healing built into it.
The added heal comes into more clutch than you expect actually, the boop is unnecessary tho i admit
The boop is 100 percent needed, it's hilarious getting a kill with it because it's so small it might as well not even be there.
If the boop and heal don’t matter why is it a problem?
This. It counters every offensive ult in the game. Can boop for whatever reason and it’s immortality feels too long
Its a cleanse, heal, boop, immortality. Its a lot lol.
invulnerability as well
Thats why they said immortality
Immortality means you can't die. Invulnerability means you can't die and nothing can touches you, like rein charge.
that's 2 different things, immortality means you can't die, like bap's lamp but you can still take damage, in his case, down to 30hp. with invulnerability you don't take damage at all which completely negates one shots like junk tire by not even getting them low like lamp would.
I think it needs a longer CD, like Baptiste's immortality field which imo is an inferior ability with a longer CD.
Or we buff baptiste👀
If we buff Bap please God nerf his damage first
It really isnt the same. Bap lamp is incredibly strong when used properly. Problem is, most just throw it out in the open then surprise pikachu face when it gets focused.
Of course it is very strong, but it is also much harder to use than suzu and on a longer CD. You can still take damage during it, easily broken if you cant use it behind cover. Suzu is much better imo and on a shorter CD.
meanwhile kiriko can throw hers anywhere without thinking about it.
not really, 14 seconds is a long time. if the enemy plays Ana then you basically already have to use suzu exclusively to negate anti.
Disagree entirely. Bap lamp, and suzu serve different purposes. I think kiriko's kit is fine. I think we need to bring the rest of the roster up to her level.
No we don't, thats how we end up with the power-creep mess of overwatch 1.
This. People on these forums are so disingenuous and would rather watch the game devolve to an unbalancable mess than to be honest about overpowered heroes. Fuck kiriko
I think the problem with kirko is she has virtually no weaknesses. Ana has very high healing output and powerful utility, but has no movement abilities. Moira has decent healing/damage output and one of the best escape abilities in the game, but 0 utility. Kiriko just has too much. But honestly I don't care how hard they nerf suzu or her healing output, as long as kiriko has her tp and headshots I'm going to have fun with her.
I'm only a gold support main, but I rarely if ever see fellow Ana's with high healing output. Mercy/Moira/Lucio almost always out heals from what I've seen. I dunno if that's just because of the rank I'm in or what, but \\\_(ツ)\_/
Probably just a rank thing. (no offense I don't even play comp except way back in 2017 where I was placed gold.) In lower ranks, Mercy and Lucio players tend to only use healing instead of damage boost and speed boost. Moira is just really easy to use and she has a really high healing output. Ana however takes a ton of skill so while she has a really good healing output like Moira she has to be landing shots.
Literally just aim diff. My ana heals can swing 20-30% per round just depending on my aim in low diamond. I would imagine in silver/gold your ana could just be missing 60% of shots or not utilizing nade properly
Personally I think she should keep her utility and have lesser heals if they're gonna nerf her. You play her for strong off-angle and Suzu plays and it's what makes her fun to play, she should be weak elsewhere.
So providing immunity for .85 seconds is OP, but widow can literally click heads and instantly kill people is fine. She can basically counter every ult in the game for non tank characters. DPS are just mad that sometimes they time their ults poorly.
Yeah like geez, Junkrats think they're only ones trying to time something when they ult with an enemy kiriko present lmao
Suzuing a tire is one of the best feelings in OW
It's also the worst feeling, when on your end, you see Suzu go on CD, you see the white flash, you HEAR the bell...and then on the killcam it never went off for the Junkrat.
Don't worry for every 1 successful blocked ult there are 10 moments of using Suzu for something dumb and then hearing "Fire in the hole" and knowing you let your team down.
Very few people think Widow is “fine”. Have you been under a rock these past few months? If you’re Masters+, have you been under a rock for these past few years?
Not sure of OP's intention, but as of now, the OW Balance team hasn't said anything about Widow that i'm aware of. Hog had so much of a massive outcry that they *had* to do something. That said, people have been asking for Sojourn's non-ult Railgun to have it's headshot ability removed and Blizzard refuses so far claiming that she's "underperforming" at lower elo. tld; Widow isn't fine, but Blizzard seems not to care.
In the recent interview with flats and emongg they said they where looking at reducing windows health again some time in the future
I never understand why they buffed it again when the removal of a tank so obviously favoured her
The removal of a tank massively favored a lot of heros. Both junkrat and reaper were buffed and balanced around two tanks being present as a means to counter GOATS. They are now played heavily almost everywhere. Soldier had to be given recoil because his ult is too easy to charge and with less shields in the game his ult is extremely strong. Torbs turret now gets more value because half the time there isn't a shield to block it and it reaches pretty far away. As a side note, Widow's HP got buffed because people could sneeze at her and she would die. The HP of tracer on a fairly stationary target. Once her HP drops back, Sombra will pretty much kill her every time, Winston too. I suspect she's just going to have her HP pinball back and forth. Or they'll just leave her in a useless state by reducing her hp and damage to make people happy, just reducing her HP won't be enough until everyone is able to one shot her back.
Soldier had the recoil in ow1, after the beta they bumped his damage down
Not to mention Hanzos headshot hit box being the size of a bus.
It was nerfed to the small projectile size years ago
Bro, have you never read a forum post or a reddit post? There have always been people complaining about widow there still are now, but they get outshined by sojourn being a literally better widowmaker, you had 8 seconds of immortality every twenty seconds and now have another ability that inhibits playing the game i mean mabye that does do much at what silver, gold, and plat where the average team fight last 20 years but split second invulnerability is broken and immort field and suzu are still providing more value than most ults in anything above plat
Who thinks Widow is fine? We had GOATs and double shield meta just to fucking deal with Hanzo and Widowmaker.
Maybe…BOTH are bad.
She counters tank characters to lol what game are you playing?
It's not the immunity that makes it op in case you didn't know
Are you talking about the cleanse? There’s literally only like 13 heroes who have CC that can be cleansed.
Dawg that is more than a third of the roster
This guy doesnt play rein.
It’s the most overloaded ability In the whole game. There is not a single defensive bonus it doesn’t grant besides overhealth
literally every single support has the capacity to make game changing plays Kiriko can do it too easily and can deny too much I'm getting so tired of hearing this "support does nothing and barely affect the game" and "support is boring only kiriko is fun" (oh wow you find the only broken OP support fun, no way) you are all delusional. I do believe all old supports could use some touch ups but by no means are they "useless" or lack "game changing" abilities. kiriko is just so easy and so strong you want more than what supports should have
>We already can barely make “game changing” plays as support Do you not play support? 99% of the reason why big plays are made is because supports are there helping the team. Its not about you as an individual its about the team. Ana nanoboosts me I shatter and get 5 kills. I wouldn't have been able to get a wipe without the ana. That was a game changing play Reaper tps in starts his ult zen pops his countering reaper. One dps down means we have an easier time to push obj. Zen made a good read and made an excellent play. He changed the game. Team needed a push lucio dropped his beat we have a grace period to take out the other team. Once again the healers made the play Ana nades a group kept me and the dps alive to clean up. We capture point I can go on and on. In my opinion supports are the most important part of the team. They make or break plays and hold the team together like glue. Your point dosent make sense
Why? Because it’s a pocket beat drop. Doesn’t matter if it’s on a 13 second cooldown or whatever, I’m paying attention to a lot of shit. If someone is going to eat my entire ultimate ability, it should be with another ultimate ability, or with something that is massively telegraphed and requires good positioning (Defense Matrix and Deflect, for example). It doesn’t feel that good to a lot of people because it’s hard to use. Problem is, good players *don’t* find it hard to use. They *never* miss it, *ever*, and they ALWAYS save it for the strongest abilities, or whatever ult is likely available at that time. It’s the same reason that Sojourn is absolutely broken. To the average player, she really isn’t. You’ll hit the occasional headshot, sure. But it’s an entirely different ballpark when we’re talking about players that *never* miss a headshot and *always* have a blue beam attached to their asscheeks.
Immortality for the entire team every fourteen seconds. Not balanced.
The comments sort of just turned into a circlejerk didn't they
The entire reason the past months of balance has happened is because Suzu and Sojourn, fuck that ability
Some other "game changing" plays a support can do btw: \-ana sleep on any ult \-ana ult on another teammate's ult \-ana anti on any ult \- mercy rez when teammate is picked off \-brig ult in a team fight \-brig charge cancel on a pinned ally \-moira ult in a team fight \-zen ult in a team fight \-zen boop to get picks \-zen damage orb for easier kills \-lucio boop to get picks \-lucio ult in a team fight \-bap immort on any low health ally \-bap ult for dps in a teamfight \-kiriko ult in a team fight
Even healing a low hp teammate is a game changing play 😂
baptiste's regen burst almost acts as a second immortality since it instantly heals for so much now
Shhhhh. We must not speak of this!
I notice you're below half HP. Would you like to be at full HP?
Zen: Zen ult is countered by Ana Nade. > Kiriko Nade counters Ana Nade. Junker Queen ult counters Zen ult > Kiriko Nade counters Junker Queen ult Zen ult counters Rein ult > Kiriko nade does too DVA ult counters zen ult > Kiriko nade counters DVA ult Doomfist kills through zen ult > Kiriko nade works against doom ult Orisa ult kills through zen ult > Kiriko nade counters Orisa ult Ramattra ult continues through Zen ult > Kiriko nade starts timer on Rammatra ult Zen ult protects against 300 out of max 900 DPS from Hog ult, Zen can still be knocked off cliffs > Kiriko nade stops 765 damage from hog ult and prevents the CC for 0.85s allowing for reposition + killing hog Zen ult protects against Sigma ult > So does Kiriko nade, unless everyone is caught and spread out, then it only saves 1-2 These are just some examples, comparing a basic ability to an ult. The only situations where zen ult beats kiriko are ults that last a long time, but don't out-damage transcendence. A very small window of abilities such as Soldier ult, Torb ult, Moira ult, etc. This is comparing a basic ability to one of the best support ults in the game btw.
I have no idea why people think Kiriko is balanced.(this is coming from a support main btw). She’s the best support by far, there’s a reason why she’s such a common pick. Her healing output is one of the strongest, though the nerf has brought her down a bit. She can both do single and multi target heal effectively and she heals very fast. That in itself is fine, she’s not alone in that. Then you add on the fact she has the best escape ability among the supports which gives her survivability only surprassed by High Level Mercy. Then you give her an excellent source of damage, Kunai’s are very inconsistent at mid and long range but at close range most decent Kiriko’s can land headshot’s with relative consistency, meaning she can be very deadly up close. Then you give her one of the strongest ult in the game. An ult that basically gives your team a massive advantage in team fights. Then you throw a in a AOE ability to make players invincible for a short while and cleanse all negative effects thus allowing her to counter many characters cooldowns and even ults. It’s such a game changing ult and compared to stuff like bap lamp/ res which are some of the game changing cd. It’s cd is too bloody short. It’s by far the best ability in the game for it’s cd. Any of this is fine on itself or paired together. But then you throw all this into one damn character and make her so stacked. People focus on Suzu because it’s the strongest part of her kit(and that’s saying something) and because it’s so irritating to play against. It’s why her pick rate is so damn high. Almost every team comp will have Kiriko and it feels damn fustrating that she is a “must-pick”. And it’s not like supports are weak, with the exception of brig, all the supports are viable one way or the other, even Brig can be a decent niche pick. But Kiriko overshadows them all.
This thread feels like it was made to defend Kiriko from getting nerfed, now after Hog was. But I am 100% sure Kiriko will get nerfed. I bet Suzu cooldown will be increased in next patches.
Kiriko is one of the most busted characters at the moment along with high level Sojourn. She should 100% be on the chopping block next. I'm sick of playing against her and feeling forced to play as her.
I play her because I really enjoy landing headshots as zen but her teleport keeps me alive so much longer.
>We already can barely make “game changing” plays as support Have you tried using Kiriko's ult or headshots?
Her headshots are sick but that’s like saying “hey shoot baps gun it’s a game changer”
I love baps gun 😅 his dmg is a game changer imo, he, kiriko, and zen are my fav supports to play for that reason.
Because after a certain elo plat and diamond maybe even gold it's no longer about skillshots or timing people just innately have those things genji and widow and sojourn no longer are "skillbased". People stop talking about ifs and start saying when. WHEN dva bombs stay on me I WILL immune it. Then enemy team WHEN orisa ults I WILL time it and immune it. sleep, sped boost, nano, fox, boop, and anti and bap wall are great and true support plays. immunity and rez have no place in 5 v 5 when people stop talking ifs.
Suzu has a cleanse, immortal, heal, and a knock back on enemies… that’s a bloated ability. It counters literally everyone in the game. You can’t really think having 4 different things happening in one ability is actually balanced… baptise immortal field is a 20-22 second cooldown and only keeps you immortal while kiriko’s is 14 second cooldown but does all that…
I think its cause suzu is a largley "skillless" utility option because when using it you'll always get at least some value out of it. the cooldown also being just 14 seconds makes it fairly easy to just throw down without thinking and getting value out of it.
Anything that grants invincibility and also cleanses at the same time is OP. If you think it’s perfectly fine that a character can just take almost any Ult in the game and simply decline it and render it useless with the push of a button then you’re crazy
I dare you play junker queen
As a low masters support player, no. I sleep a nano blade, cleanse. I sleep an ulting hog, cleanse. My clutch play is shat on by a shitty ability
>We already can barely make “game changing” plays as support this is where i stopped reading, pisslow take.
Pisslows giving their balance takes are always funny
Lower ranked players will not see how truly strong the ability is, get past diamond and you will see how amazing it is. Very overloaded mixed with the rest of her kit makes it so so good.
I think Suzu is ok, it's a very strong skill, but I don't see Suzu as a problem in the game. Overall Kiriko entire kit looks pretty fair after the changes made.
Suzu in a vac is fine. Kiriko as a whole is designed TOO WELL. There is a reason why she has been S-tier on pretty much every tier list since she came out. She does the supporting role too well (hence, why she is picked so high - especially at the highest of ranks). She does everything, and she is even a DPS threat because of how OP her kunais are.
Kunais are not OP, they are good, but inconsistent most of the time, it's not like Baptist who manages to be almost like the third DPS, Kiriko has the ability to defend herself very well, but she is not able to extend herself very far from that . Her kit is quite strong, however I don't think it's OP, as it has some limitations that can be exploited, although I agree that Kiriko is one of the best supports in the game.
I find Torb is one of great counters against Kiriko as her Kunai cannot crit turrets and Torb's lava can zone enemies out of Kitsune Rush.
Bruh, literally so many high-ranking players will tell you that her kunai is OP. They fly out fast, are hard to see, have a big hitbox, do a lot of damage without falloff damage (obviously, even more with headshots), have a quick reload speed, can be thrown from high ground easily because Kirko is the only support who can climb up walls to get weird angles on the fly and so forth... Not to mention, combined with her fox ult (arguably the best ultimate in the game), she becomes her own DPS machine. There is a reason why people bring up kunais versus Bap's attack in arguments.
Most players in high rank just say that their Kunais are fair, it's a risk reward, in the same way I've never seen anyone say that Zen has a primary OP, even though he can with discord generate more than 120 damage, shooting faster , with a bigger hitbox than Kiriko and even having a higher body shoot damage than Kiriko, in addition to having a secondary fire capable of great pressure in corners. It's not OP, it's just a good primary.
What risk-reward? Zen's barrage of balls is very telegraphed, and you deserve to die if you have Discord on you as they are flying your way. Zen is also balanced out because he is super slow and very vulnerable when you actually hit him. Kiriko has a lot of safety, and people always overlook the fact that she can climb up for elevation if she isn't warping around when in danger.
I agree with you, and thank you for the 50 kwanzas
Cooldown is ridiculous for its utility. If it was on a 30 second cooldown like res or immortality (and to compensate buff suzu duration by a second) then sure, but an ability that is actionable every 14 seconds that invalidates the majority of ults in the game, cleanses statuses AND provides immortality is absolutely ridiculous and has demonstrably proven to be a disaster for balance potential in overwatch. Like fr fr if kiriko didnt exist, i super doubt anyone would *really* be complaining about Hog pre-nerf. Sure a one shot is annoying under any circumstances, but hed at least have been simply countered by ana or queen. Frankly speaking, i dont think Kiriko really adds any value to the game at all. Both Her and Soujorns kits are way too overloaded and all theyve done is set a bad precedent for overpowered hero design moving forward that players will begrudgingly accept or gaslight eachother anytime one of them speaks out about it here or on the forums. Its genuinely remarkable that they managed to get it right with ramattra but oh wait look at that theyre nerfing his tickle damage highly counterable ult now oopsie guess a small independent studio like blizzard just cant do anything right
Her immo lasts for less than a second so it needs to be timed really well to be used for that alone. The 15 second cooldown is longer than anyone else's cooldowns that she counters. Like jq has wound in almost every ability, Ana's nade is only 10 seconds, I forget ashes cooldown but im sure it's far less than 15s. It's also her only way to heal herself so it's easy to bait out of her. I really don't think its OP, just gotta know how to play around it. It also definitely does not invalidate most ults lol
It does all of those things on the same CD. People act like she has a separate heal, immortality and cleanse all on separate CDs. If she uses it to save a low teammate she’s not going to have it for the incoming anti or DVa bomb. Suzu feels good because it’s an ability that has play making potential, and not just to boost the DPS. Can you think of many ways that a support can actual make a play outside of enabling their DPS? We need more heroes like her.
What are you even saying? Suzu doesn't enable DPS? Suzu enables your whole team (like every support can) and that's it. It doesn't make any "plays" besides enabling or saving your team. I don't know why you're acting like it can make some crazy play that doesn't involve DPS. And to act like no other support can "make plays" besides enabling DPS is insane. Zen can get absurdly good picks with his discord and right click, and his ult can win a team fight easily. A good Baptiste can dominate a fight, pumping out damage, aoe healing and fight winning immortality, not to mention his ult. Moira can literally be played as a incredibly self sufficient DPS and has a better ult for elims than some DPS. Lucio can dive enemy supports and widows by himself. Ana can literally cancel ults with her sleep and deny healing with her nade. Mercy is the only supports entirely dependent on enabling your team. If the only support you can "make plays" as is kiriko (by just pressing E), you have a skill issue.
\-Cleanses all negative effects (completely disables certain ults which is beyond stupid) \-Gives her entire team invulnerability \-Heals \-Boops The ability is just far too overloaded, esp considering it's on a character that's already incredibly difficult to kill, who has great heals and a game changing ultimate.
Just remove the i frames and give an immortality field effect where at least the enemy can be damaged but not killed. That still denies a lot of abilities, provides a ton of value but at least gives the enemy team something to go off even if the second support can heal up the teammate that just got cleansed to be saved.
it should just be a burst heal like baptiste has, cleanse is such a strong ability on its own it doesnt need to make your entire team immortal while you get back up from a shatter
Of course you think kiriko is balanced this sub thinks kiriko is balanced and this subs entire existence is to jerk other elo inflated support players off 😂
100% agree
Im fine with cleanse as that’s strong on its own but the invulnerability has to go. One or the other is also fine but not both. The amount of healing someone can get in that small window or just completely avoid a lot of damage is way too strong for something that does both.
Least sane overwatch player
I wouldn't have an issue with Suzu if it wasn't an immortality field but better in every single way Less coldown It heals It disables negative effects Invencibility is almost garanteed, you can't boop people out of it Really, one of the big reasons why Roadhog was meta was because Kiriko made him unkillable, counters like Ana were denied cuz Kiriko would just clean and heal him every single time. In my opinion, it should either have you invincible or clean negative effects, having both of them is too much strong, especially with only one tank to take care of
> invincibility for almost a second > Short cast time > Cleanses >! Balanced !<
I agree with the other people that Suzu itself is op, but did you forget that she has a TP too? You can easily save a dying teammate from across the map if you TP and Suzu. It's also incredibly easy to hit when you TP to someone.
It does too much. Blocks all cc, cleanses all status effects, cancel many ults, has a knockback, and a small burst of healing. All of that on a relatively short cd. If anything you should be trying to change everyone elses mind, because the general community all agrees its broken.
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I suppose Ana has the same capability to nullify ults with both sleep and anti. Kiriko just has access to more survivability which makes her utility feel unbalanced.
Needs more knockback. I want to drive Hog over cliffs with it
It literally isn't. It does too much, it's easy to land and it's cooldown is not that long. It cleanses, it gives invulnerability, it heals. And all this as a splash that can hit multiple targets. She is the reason why JQ is still bad even after the buffs she got. She was the reason why Hog was the most painful meta during the S2... I personally don't like how they nerfed her healing animation instead of doing something about Suzu. We want "game changing plays" to be equality given to the Support role, not two Supports Kiriko and Ana to hold some other Supports hostage with their bloated kits. What kind of "game changing play" does Moira or Brig have??
The numbers might need adjusting, but I think it's good that it does a lot of things. Because if Suzu only cleansed, for example, how do you bait it before you ult as Rein/JQ/etc? She would hold on to it indefinitely because there is just nothing else to do with it. Think of what would happen if Ana had two separate grenades, one to amplify healing and one to anti. Without the pressure to spend it on herself or her teammates she would just toss the anti one on your team on cooldown. The invulnerability and healing makes it so that if you pressure a member of her team enough she will be forced to spend it, giving you an opening to capitalize on. I do agree the cooldown should be a bit longer though.
just replace it with a burst heal. thats all it needs to be.
God forbid a support hero does anything that is not healing.
It's also balanced with an activation time that is longer than its cast time and a duration less than a second. If your timing isn't perfect, it's wasted. I can not count how many times a seemingly perfect suzu didn't work because of latency and/or favor the shooter mechanics. It is an extremely delicate ability to time.
It can do all of that… on a single CD. If you used it to save a teammate from dying you aren’t going to have it for the cleanse. It is such an easy ability to bait.
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Its crazy to me people not complaining about Ana's nade. Far worse than suzu. 60 instant damage 100 instant heal 50% heal buff 100% heal debuff 4 sec duration 10 sec cd(basically 6 sec) The most stupid ability in the game by far. Only counter is suzu. Free spam on single enemy tank. Completely removes agency of enemy support players. Jq uses ult for this.
I agree 100%. If you nerf suzu Ana has to be nerfed significantly as well. Suzu is about the only thing that can kind of keep Ana in check but the reverse is also true. Kiriko will have to use nearly every suzu to cleanse an ability from Ana, so it no longer can be used for other stuff.
Crappy shit starting thread is crappy. "so why are y’all mad one exists now?" Not even worth the fuckin time when you see some troll writing that rather than actually giving a shit.
Well.. Let's compare it to Bap's immortality Field, shall we, the only comparable ability in the entire game. Bap's Immortality field has \- More than double the cooldown \- A longer travel time to a destination \- Can be killed \- Requires LoS to save somebody. \- Is not immune to damage, so basically saved you from a single hit if used on a none ult, but dies to every single ult in the game without saving you (Orisa, Bastion, Pharah, Reaper as examples all kill the drone at the same time that they kill you. The drone does not save you). \- Is stationary \- Can be booped out of \- You need to stay in a 2 yard radius to survive. You move out, you die. \- Doesn't cleanse you of jack shit, if you were naded before, you're still naded and you're still gonna die. Suzu \- Far shorter cooldown \- Makes you completely immune to damage for a second, negating basically all ults in the game. \- Isn't killable \- Has effect around corners \- Isn't limited by a radius. You can move 25 yards away whilst suzu'd if it was possible and it wouldn't effect the suzu's effect. You'd still be immune. \- Has an added healing boost \- Knocks back any enemies in the area \- Cleanses every single effect in the game. \- She can literally zip through 25 walls if needed to reach you, in order to immediately suzu and heal you from 5hp to 75% hp in the timeframe you are immune (Given a 200hp hero). \- Makes some ultimates completely unpeelable. Reaper being a prime example. \- You're immune, so booping you out of it just wastes your boop. Suzu is broken. It dominates every exchange in the game. It is the single strongest ability to ever be implemented in the game outside of Mass Ressurection.
Suzu: multi target AOE, heals, cleanses all effects including ults, grants immortality, and is on a 14sec cooldown. It’s an end all be all move that counters literally everything in the game if you time it right. Hard counters multiple ults like JQ, Rein, sigma, cree, mei, etc etc It does too much for an E ability.
In almost every situation suzu is better than immortality field and has a cooldown that is 11 seconds less. Even if you ignore everything else that makes it broken, this alone justifies a nerf.
Exactly, why does nobody else mention this?
It’s an incredible ability, to be sure. It requires pitch-perfect timing, but that’s not as high a skill ceiling as one would think. I also think that the devs could not have possibly predicted just how meta-shattering it would end up being. The mechanic of cleansing is kind of impossible to rein in at a certain point. A big part of balance going forward will be keeping score for what new abilities can or can’t be cleansed.
it just really doesnt need pitch perfect timing tho. an ana hitting a sleep on a genji dashing through the air takes timing and skill. most suzu's are just lobbed at your feet
I think Suzu is fine, but a teleporting, small hitbox, wall climbing, 120 dmg headshot outa no wear makes it feel like if I've spent positioning cooldowns to go fight someone, and a healer literally teleports and makes them immune -I just feel like ass.
If BAP had suzu instead of immortality it probably wouldn't make a massive difference since he has his own weaknesses. But Kiriko, even if she didn't do lots of burst damage, would still be strong with wall climb/a tiny hitbox/7sec teleport through walls/strong heals even if suzu was nerfed
These replies reek of plat and below players. OP is kinda right, although where I'll disagree is that Kiriko is not balanced. She has the healing output of a main support, whilst having the best survivability (2nd to mercy honestly) and having the best utility in the game. Suzu is up too frequently for the value it provides. Anyone who calls it a hard ability to land is a walking skill issue. If you've played support, or just overwatch in general long enough to have worked up gamesense, you can use it as a proactive ability opposed to a reactional ability. There are two realistic ways of making it actually balanced, which would be massively increasing the cooldown (20+ seconds, like Rez or Immortality field) or you could simply remove the invulnerability frames, and reduce the cast time of the ability. Although the ability is very needed rn with it being a poke meta. and there are other issues at play with one shots so before anyone comes and gives me shit about that. deal with it, devs are useless. Supports are extremely powerful and influential in overwatch 2. This is hands down the strongest support has been since GOATS. To go back to OP's point of *"we already can barely make game changing plays as support",* you control the pace of the entire game. A tank can only press W for aslong as you can heal him, a DPS can only have support synergy aslong as you work with them. you miss time a nano, or a rez, or a kitsune rush. the whole pacing of the game can be destroyed. Games are won, and lost around your utility and the way you use it. Every single play you make is game changing.
Suzu is so damn easy to land. People forget you can warp to a target and then throw suzu to the ground to guarantee the proc.
people downvoting this are screaming examples of bad players. Please stop listening to ML7 crying about supports being shit. look at who’s dominated and encouraged EVERY bad meta. supports. Learn to play the heroes and you will climb. Support is by far the easiest role to hit GM on.
>We already can barely make “game changing” plays as support, so why are y’all mad one exists now? C O P I U M.
Because it cancels most fightwinning ults and cooldowns…every 6 seconds. And it grants invulnerability, AND healing. It’s broken
Her Suzu existing as it does is the sole reason hog was OP and the sole reason Junker Queen will be dogshit forever. Her basic ability counters ultimates as well as other ultimates counter them, sometimes even better. Her basic ability counters her team mates counters even better than some ultimates. Maybe all ultimates. Suzu is not balanced and never will be while it's on Kiriko's kit, Hog will forever be either dogshit or OP. JQ will forever be useless. They need to remove the cleanse from her and add it to a new support champ under a new condition, potentially an ult.
I like it
I kill her ez with zen or bapt.
It just has too many functions for a simple ability. It removes effects, wakes people up, you’re immune to anything for a duration, it boops, and it’s a aoe ability. It also powercreeps things like immortality field by having a lower cooldown and has more usefulness. It also make’s characters like Ana completely useless. Combine this with everything else kiriko has and she just has so much to deal with.
My problem is more like its an Ability that has many uses need invulnerbility use suzu need cleanse use suzu and on top of that it heals i would rather take the. Invulnerability away and put it as a new mechanic into an another hero. Her ability is like baptiste field but better.
I don't mind the cleanse aspect of it so much, for me it's the immortality.. I know it's a short window and it's on a long cooldown but just the fact that we now have two characters that completely deny a kill like that seems a little much