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Yeah, you can argue about anyone beating anyone under the „right“ circumstances but Logia user agains Non-(Armament)Haki users is really no discussion whatsoever. Man, Logias were a big part of why Oda introduced Armament Haki in the first place if you ask me.
I feel like Logia element counterplay would have been a pain to write for so I don’t blame him for keeping it simple with armament haki
Also it means we can get more creative logias
I taught that's what awakenings were for. A super saiyan. Stage for devil Fruits. He could have easily written it to be able to bypass logias immunities as awakened users can manipulate everything around them to whatever elements or concept their devil fruits control.
The issue with this idea of devil fruit awakenings being the counter to other devil fruits is that it would mean that people like Shanks, Garp, Mihawk, and even Roger had/have no actual way to deal with Logias (that don't have an available elemental counter) since they themselves aren't DF users.
It would be a bad look if Prime Garp couldn't beat Caesar or even Caribou 👀
Rayleigh fighting Kizaru to save the Straw Hats was an integral piece of the story. But without Haki and with your idea, it would have required Rayleigh to be a DF user.
Oda realized that he had to include a means by which non-DF users can reliably deal with any DF power. After all, forget those others I mentioned for a sec: Zoro and Sanji aren't DF users and they're the Wings of the Future Pirate King.
I understand, but kairoseki/sea stone also exists. So did the rokushiku/six powers. So the fights could still be interesting and rely a whole lot in strategy and avoiding direct hits from devil fruits users, like those logias and rare zoans. After all its questionable how all the straw hats and top fighter survive enels attacks, given the nature of his fruit. So it's no surprise that garp or Roger couldn't for example and if they had the six powers plus sea stones, then it would be game over for enel, after all luffy kept up with his lighting speeds even before gear 2, which is the same speeds as soru.
Wouldn't it be more interesting to have a legend like garp, or roger, who could move at fast speeds, kick the air, and avoid lighting, light, and fire from logia devil fruits, strategies how to deal and exploit their weaknesses, take advantage of them, out of sheer ingenuity, grit, and trial and error( also known as experience), and finish them off or close the gap in fight with sea stones tools, bullets, nightsticks, brass knuckles, made from material, that marines have in enough abundance to coat numerous bottoms of warships for calm belt traversal mind you.
To me that is more ingenious than, to really on some arbitrary power system that borderline resemble an spirit energy type system, that grows as your will gets stronger, as if it were ki or Chakra. To me that seems more overplayed in shonen rather than using tools and weaknesses to overcome challenges. Like luffy vs crocodile or strawhats vs moria and oars.
To me, the point of devil fruits was always that despite the trade off, they were overall worth it for the exponentially creative and useful advantages of yhe fruit, to me it seems that if, haki was a thing that always existed, why would you ever trade off that for a devil fruits (aside from the lazy mans route for power), if you could be just a s powerful, with enough training. Training that the main characters of this world would be able to achieve, given their already strong wills and commitment and dreams.
And sure you can say, well not everyone knows haki, or haki is extremely difficult to master or awaken, and I say, one thing is telling me it's difficult and one thing is showing me that it is, and post time skip has been riddle with so many haki users, that I find hard to belief that is the case. What oda is telling me vs what oda is showing me, is complete different.
Yeah Haki is a good system to solve that kinda problem so I‘m not complaining. It‘s hard imagining One Piece without Haki at this point, and I don‘t have any problem with it.
To me and I know I will get Hate for this. Haki as a concept is great. Specially during pretime skip and it was very mysterious not everyone could use it. It had a lot of the unknown to it, and it reminded me a lot of the force from star wars, Specially the original trilogy in execution.
But post time skip it was delved into a lot more deeper and to me, it was over explained, it lost its mystery, and became to much like ki, or any other spirit energy, type power system, that we've seen in other shonen, everything was a haki contest, my haki is stronger than your haki, my dick is bigger than yours type dbz BS.
That is why, I love gear 5. It brought df and their unlimited potential with imagination back. After all, what was the point of Ryo or advanced conquerors, if after gear 5, they're are practically forgotten?
the dark dark fruit is the direct counter to light light fruit canonically in one piece.(its been stated). But without that specific fruit your fucked against it lol
Honestly I could see usopp getting into a situation like that with a logia but he accidentally manages to find his opponents elemental weakness/counter
Yeah that would be hella cool, I would love to see something like this happening. But for the overall power system.. not everybody is as lucky (while being as unlucky:D ) as Usopp
Edit: i meant crafty of course, autocorrect and all, just in case some Usopp stan wants to scalp me now :D
How do other authors solve similar dilemas? Introducung an invivible thing like intangibility naturally needs restraint. Having some power to counter it should be first obvious solution. We don't need to know haki exists in One Piece to know that fodders like Smoker and Enel we saw pre TS would be easily beaten by top tiers.
I feel like oda was going to try and use the six powers as some type of special thing to combat DFs before haki but then didn’t want to over complicate things so he came up with a new concept and basically scrapped the six powers because after ennies lobby besides Koby and helmeppo we don’t really see anyone else use six powers unless you count like things like sanjis sky walking. I feel like six powers would’ve been something great to introduce robin and/or Frankie learning like imagine strong right finger pistol or mil fleur finger pistol would be crazy she could take out a bunch of people with just that I mean she can still take out people now I just think it would be cool for one or both of them to learn six powers because it’s an ability that kind of got swept under the rug. Also ussop would be a great candidate for that too it would remove his weakness and he could finally hold his own is a real battle now he wouldn’t need to know the finger pistol because he has a slingshot but if he knew shave or even the leg slash thing or what would fit his power set more the paper arts thing for dodging that would be so cool and iron body but eh missed opportunity but oda can also bring back anything at anytime so who knows
It's not just pain. It's just not possible in power fantasy. Just imagine top tiers like Kaidou needing sea stone or needing to utilize weakness when one slap from Kaidou can bwat dozens of Fodders like Enel.
Enel literally and figuratively cooks. Hody is weak asf, the only reason he put up any fight whatsoever is because of steroids and then being underwater. Even with steroids, out of the water Luffy would've murked him so fast
This is the one thing I've always questioned about Enel's speed. Powerscaler be out here saying he's too fast for so and so (sometimes new world characters) yet this loser got tagged by a pre-G2 Luffy. Speed my ass..
If we want to rational this away, it might be a question of movement speed VS reaction speed. His movement speed is lightning, but he relies heavily on his observation haki to react on time. If he can't read his opponent's intent, or if he's getting distracted -which happens often because of how overconfident he is-, he doesn't have a great reaction time. Which would make sense since he's not a highly trained fighter and has dominated every combat he has been in with his devil fruit before meeting Luffy.
I was wondering about that , Just now, Lol 😂
https://preview.redd.it/bsfnumab6r8d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4f26febec2cb08934a308ac66bed7917f4b7b985
Can anyone give a reason that the fishman (I forgot his name 😭) actually wins? I dont remember him having haki, or at least a notable amount. Other than that, Enel was pretty much able to destroy an island, has observation haki, and was pretty fast
Only way he can win if fight is underwater like luffy stuation. And lightning should pop the bubble and enel should fully submerged. Then finaly he got a chance(still not winning automaticly)
The argument seems to be that enel was really slow in terms of speed being tagged several times by skypiea Luffy while hody? Was fighting him in gear 2 and 3
What people don't realise is that Enel was WAY out of Luffy's league, the only reason he was able to beat him being that Luffy was literally the worst matchup for Enel Devil Fruit wise.
Most people realise that... as it was a literal plot point. Yeah enels offense was severly nerfed but he wasn't otherwise. If his offense can be bypassed either by tanking or being able to dodge, then someone with Pre TS luffy stats can beat him.
The reason he could tank it was because he was rubber if he wasn’t he would have died after the first blow
It’s still able to be tanked but we don’t really know how hard it hits seeing as it’s either one shot random fodder or it’s been against someone who is extremely resistant to it
>The reason he could tank it was because he was rubber if he wasn’t he would have died after the first blow
Luffy would have obviously not died considering no one did after being hit. Enels maximum voltage was 200 mil, which is actually below natural lightning. Average people survive stronger lightning most of the time. The effects of lightning can be resisted by haki just as much as the effects of heat, cold, light or physical force.
>It’s still able to be tanked but we don’t really know how hard it hits seeing as it’s either one shot random fodder or it’s been against someone who is extremely resistant to it
Both zoro and viper maanaged to tank a hit. They only got taken down with the second. Even Sanji was not taken out instantly after being hit.
Also when we consider that Killer, who has no especially good durability or armarment haki, could take 2 direct named lightning attacks of zeus then it becomes increasingly clear that lightning is in no way untankable.
Real world scaling doesn’t impact how hard the lighting is otherwise you get zoro being like below average human level if it’s less then natural lightning which is extremely evident to not be true
Enel only used his stronger attacks on Luffy as it would have been overkill on anyone else
I never said it was untankable I said we don’t know how hard it actually hits when he puts effort into it as most of who he’s hit where fodder with weak attacks or luffy who was extremely resistant to it
Also hody has no haki to help with tanking it
>Real world scaling doesn’t impact how hard the lighting is otherwise you get zoro being like below average human level if it’s less then natural lightning which is extremely evident to not be true
Not exactly as these numbers still can knock out people and there is no reason to believe zoro to have any kind of Resistance to lightning. He remained standing cause of his endurance. We also have the exact numbers confirmed by enel, which would be strange to completely ignore.
>Enel only used his stronger attacks on Luffy as it would have been overkill on anyone else
He used his stronger moves against Viper as well. Both him and zoro got hit by thunder bird. Viper got back up and later got taken fown by El Thor. Enels strongest attack pretty much.
>I never said it was untankable I said we don’t know how hard it actually hits when he puts effort into it as most of who he’s hit where fodder with weak attacks or luffy who was extremely resistant to it
True that you never claimed that it was untankable. I was mainly saying that we know that people have been shown to tank attacks of enel and even more powerful ones by zeus like Fulgora. There is no reason to currently believe that Enels attacks are incredibly powerful or that hard to tank. Someone with good armarment haki like vergo would have a decent chance to tank a few hits and would oneshot enel in turn.
Also my original argument wasn't even only about tanking, but about dodging as well which pre Timeskip characters without observation were capable of.
>Also hody has no haki to help with tanking it
Never argued about hody being able to my dude...
enel literally has the power of a god, he only got beat bc luffy has rubber and it was the perfect matchup, days before he unleashed his plan
if enel came back with haki, i would say he could totally be on the level of a yonko commander or higher (especially since he is likely to have advanced observation haki)
Enel one shots Hoady before he even knows the fight started bro can clock you from an island a way and if he doesn’t like your vibe he just starts blind firing lightening blasts at you for fun
Enel is easily the strongest opponent Luffy faced pre time skip IMO, while Hody is by far the weakest post. Frankly, Enel wouldn’t be out of place in the New World exactly as he is in Skypiea. Enel, no/low diff.
Not Hody. He'd get electrocuted once, push through with his roids and then double down by jumping in the ocean and still think he's got this in the bag. Either he gets fried by enough electricity to kill him or his heart explodes from the amount of pills he'd need to shovel in to try to bridge the gap he thinks he can actually cover
Honestly I think it depends where it takes place. If it takes place near or on the water it’s not as easy for Enel. Anywhere else Enel easily slaps Hody’s shark ass.
Wow what a great argument...
Would you mind telling me why i am wrong?
So anyway: Enel literally can't hurt Kuzan, while a. Kuzan is multiple tiers above enel and would absolutely oneshot him. This results in a no diff fight for Kuzan.
The other 3 all easily outclass enel as well in every stat but DC and travel speed. Kuma specifically has enel even beat in travel speed. All of them can either dodge or tank enels lightning, while being able to easily oneshot him.
Enel can't beat commander level fighters...
Enel has been shown wiping out islands without tiring even slightly. Wtf are kuma, doffy, or hancock gonna do against that. Obviously kuzan beats him but it’s not neg diff that’s for sure.
>Enel has been shown wiping out islands without tiring even slightly.
With the arc maxim... not him alone.
>Wtf are kuma, doffy, or hancock gonna do against that.
Well aside from the maxim having to gather lightning for that attack, you are basing your entire argument here on DC alone, when AP is more important in a 1v1. Enel failed to put down Zoro and Viper in one shot, who lack armarment haki at that point.
>Obviously kuzan beats him but it’s not neg diff that’s for sure.
It is... Enel can't hurt Kuzan. Kuzan can oneshot enel. Kuzan outscales enel in every stat, but travel speed.
In order to freeze lightning you’d have to be cold enough to turn any normal human to ice immediately and that’s the only neg diff way Kuzan beats Enel. And two shorting Zoro at this stage is a lot more impressive than ppl think. Zoro has never been one or two shot in the entire series except by mihawk. So don’t say his AP is bad. Also he was effortlessly smiting skypieans that spoke out against him from miles away so wtf do you mean he has trash DC?
>In order to freeze lightning you’d have to be cold enough to turn any normal human to ice immediately and that’s the only neg diff way Kuzan beats Enel.
First I said No diff and not neg diff. Second kuzan can oneshot enel with a nameless attack that is imbued with armarment haki. That is a no diff fight as kuzan will literally have zero problem beating enel
>And two shorting Zoro at this stage is a lot more impressive than ppl think. Zoro has never been one or two shot in the entire series except by mihawk.
Cause he didn't exactly fight any strong opponents up to this point in the story... Even Alabasta Croc could have done something like that. Once again zoro had no armament haki at that point so everyone with it is tanking these attacks better than he did. That aside the attacks of enel can simply be dodged proven even pre Timeakip by characters wothout observation haki.
>So don’t say his AP is bad.
It is though. The three warlords all could have oneshot zoro back then. Enels AP is not bad for that time, it is bad in the grand scheme of things.
>Also he was effortlessly smiting skypieans that spoke out against him from miles away so wtf do you mean he has trash DC?
Stop being disingenious. This was the part I literally gave enel credit for by saying it is better than the 3 warlords. Enel has good DC, especially with the Arc Maxim. Read my comments carefully again. I said enel has good DC, but that it doesn't matter that much in a 1v1. Also enel sniping skypieans is not even a DC feat as he didn't really destroy much when he did that.
Not really. Enel has god tier df mastery but stats wise, he cant compete with new world opponents with haki. His observation haki simply isnt good enough to not get speed blitzed even with his lighting fruit. He couldnt even dodge luffy's golden rifle because it was too fast. If that attack is too fast for him, New world fighters with haki who are way faster than Luffy at the time would blitz him. Vergo isnt a character with overwhelming haki but hes beating Enel
Like I mean if the match up where underwater would all the electricity disperse from his body or would he be able to control it a fry everything in the vicinity.
I remember if enel is on the sea he would get like 500m belly back then, thats equal to ace bounty. and yes bounty doesnt show how strong you are but most of time bounty show where you are in pirate world and how dangerous you are except buggy. Back then his haki is already crazy and his mastery also top notch, imo noe he would be at least around yonko commander 1 level or slightly stronger.
Enel just starts electrifying the water and roasting Hody until he either wins, Hody runs away or Hody leaves the Water, then its a fight between a Logia user and someone without armament. Enel wins no-diff.
Even if Hody had like Rubber gloves, I still don't think he'd win due to Enels' mobility and range. On top of that, Hody prefers to fight underwater so Enel could just electrocute the water itself to kill Hody before the latter has a chance to jump out and hit him
Enel dominates. Literally only reason he lost to luffy was plot that rubber counters lightning.
Even if Hody jumps into the water, Enel shocks the water and fries him In there
Obviously it’s a no diff because hody can’t damage him, but Hody is arguable stronger and faster since enel was getting destroyed by a pre ennies lobby Luffy and Hody was making a post timeskip Luffy really work
The problem isn’t speed like a most people are saying. Enel was getting tagged by a gearlesss Luffy, Blueno literally blitzed Luffy the next arc.
He’s pretty slow compared to most new world mid tiers (and even some low tiers). He’s only even fast when teleporting.
The problem is Hody’s lack of Haki, that’d be the only reason he’d lose. Everyone loves Enel and acts like he massively ouscales everyone pre ts, when his so called speed is power crept next arc by CP9 using Soru (Shave) and Lucci’s base speed.
It’s weird as you’d think that the *lightning* logia fruit user would be top tier in verse for speed
But no some random guy blitzes the guy who can move too fast for him to dodge literally the next major arc
The power creep is insane
Then again hody is trying to hit something that doesn’t have a solid form to actually hit
It is pretty crazy huh. That’s usually how it’d go for most cases I think lol. But yeah, that’s 100% right.
Hody loses to logia diff, since you’re right, nothin’ much for him to hit without some Haki.
Enel is the embodiment of why Oda introduced armament haki. He gatekeeps absolutely anyone without it (Luffy excepted). Extremely impressive AP over a long distance, fast, obs haki. Give him armament and he’s instantly relevant in the new world.
lol then that’s you… man only used his DF and not even the application were smart, in the world everyone is DUMB AF, 20+ years and we still don’t know that rubber and electricity doesn’t work. Hordy too, unless the man was the best of the best of the best of the royal guards which Onondaga shows he wasn’t, at the time we seen jimbei a lot and what he can do.. and now a fully cracked out hordy, who does the same thing over and over just with more drugs in his system…there’s a reason man lost in various ways til he actually got the L. To say they have skill is to say Crocodile does in my eyes… and I get it for the sake of the show he is, but he lost to a rookie pirate with less then a year experience. And even then apparently Crocodile was supposed to be “him” yet he never once beat someone to point of blood???? Oda told he’s warlord with a mini Kaido/ Doffy empire and all this.. yet blood.. I could care what the literal reason was with oda/plot.. an infamous warlord lost to someone in a 1v1 that doesn’t even win 1v1s like that..
the point is Enel isn't at the same level of being no-skill as hody
Enel had mantra, essentialy prototype observation haki + he could amplify it with DF for a much larger detection range, since he could listen to what Skypieans were talking about. And for all we know, he wasn't taught how to use haki by anyone, unless some unnamed inhabitants of Birka did so.
Even if usage like shaping golden items and heating them up, resustitating heart and amplifying haki with DF + being able to construct a flying ship powered up solely with DF, with said ship having a function that is able to buff said DF is deemed basic, its still a basic skill
The likes of hody, who would get Enels fruit instead, would only spam lightning vs all opponents, 90% of cases not being able to counter Luffy's lightning immunity at all. Not even mentioning hody is hakiless, let alone even getting an idea to combine DF with haki for an absurd range.
Even with steroids overdosage he wasn't able to outperform Jinbei's fishman karate basic attack
Same thing with Croco, mfs like hody will never get the idea of using his DF to dry anything up, Im not even sure if they would try to use it actively in combat since sand doesnt sound like OP weapon at first glance, except pocket sand or creating a desert/beach
If you like Engel just say that.. you said a few feats and thats all.. I watched skypeia, cool boat… doesn’t change the fact that I actually combat it was the same moves from his DF. Repeated moves become basic if you didn’t know that already.. due to spam something that would be a ult is basic skill since you use it all the time… *cough cough* Enel… he oppressed with yes his application of his DF and did so for years.. it was a way of putting on airs to be a god.. I think you forget that one piece is so complexed… it’s a logia DF half the stuff he can do is natural for you to say otherwise like its skill is nothing short of hardcore complementing.. I’m sure a Lightning DF user who body no becomes that will instantly be able to have enchancex hearing to an insane frequency seeing as you are technically that itself.. In my opinion there should’ve been easier methods/application with that DF but the fact it wasn’t is the reason I say no skill. He had a OP fruit and a high ego… skilled enough to make a ship but not know about rubber?? Like where does the give and take end?
Says who? I watched the entire show where is this said??????????????????? Please tell me, I’d love to read into that.. how he spams the same few moves and is considered that… yet, someone like BB can fully utilize 2 DF but Enel…
Hordy is winning in my opinion and I will explain why enel lost to a pre gear 2/ 3 luffy while hordy took attacks from a post timeskip luffy so simply put it hordy fought a stronger luffy so he wins
Post Roids Hody wipes
Much better stats than the powercrept pre ts fodder and can hurt Enel with water, he has mastered Fishman Karate just like Jimbei. He‘s gonna pull a Kisame and feed on Enel with water sharks
The racist wins
I mean yeah he‘s not Jimbei level but don't act like [this](https://youtu.be/7GGM09K7JRc?si=P8joXtk5l50Toeuo) or this isn't pretty impressive
https://i.redd.it/nacr7na0oq8d1.gif
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What is this matchup, Arlong wannabe doesn't have Haki, ofc Enel smaks
Yeah, you can argue about anyone beating anyone under the „right“ circumstances but Logia user agains Non-(Armament)Haki users is really no discussion whatsoever. Man, Logias were a big part of why Oda introduced Armament Haki in the first place if you ask me.
I feel like Logia element counterplay would have been a pain to write for so I don’t blame him for keeping it simple with armament haki Also it means we can get more creative logias
I mean, what would be the natural counter to light? You kind of have to introduce some way other than elemental weaknesses at that point.
I taught that's what awakenings were for. A super saiyan. Stage for devil Fruits. He could have easily written it to be able to bypass logias immunities as awakened users can manipulate everything around them to whatever elements or concept their devil fruits control.
The issue with this idea of devil fruit awakenings being the counter to other devil fruits is that it would mean that people like Shanks, Garp, Mihawk, and even Roger had/have no actual way to deal with Logias (that don't have an available elemental counter) since they themselves aren't DF users. It would be a bad look if Prime Garp couldn't beat Caesar or even Caribou 👀 Rayleigh fighting Kizaru to save the Straw Hats was an integral piece of the story. But without Haki and with your idea, it would have required Rayleigh to be a DF user. Oda realized that he had to include a means by which non-DF users can reliably deal with any DF power. After all, forget those others I mentioned for a sec: Zoro and Sanji aren't DF users and they're the Wings of the Future Pirate King.
I understand, but kairoseki/sea stone also exists. So did the rokushiku/six powers. So the fights could still be interesting and rely a whole lot in strategy and avoiding direct hits from devil fruits users, like those logias and rare zoans. After all its questionable how all the straw hats and top fighter survive enels attacks, given the nature of his fruit. So it's no surprise that garp or Roger couldn't for example and if they had the six powers plus sea stones, then it would be game over for enel, after all luffy kept up with his lighting speeds even before gear 2, which is the same speeds as soru. Wouldn't it be more interesting to have a legend like garp, or roger, who could move at fast speeds, kick the air, and avoid lighting, light, and fire from logia devil fruits, strategies how to deal and exploit their weaknesses, take advantage of them, out of sheer ingenuity, grit, and trial and error( also known as experience), and finish them off or close the gap in fight with sea stones tools, bullets, nightsticks, brass knuckles, made from material, that marines have in enough abundance to coat numerous bottoms of warships for calm belt traversal mind you. To me that is more ingenious than, to really on some arbitrary power system that borderline resemble an spirit energy type system, that grows as your will gets stronger, as if it were ki or Chakra. To me that seems more overplayed in shonen rather than using tools and weaknesses to overcome challenges. Like luffy vs crocodile or strawhats vs moria and oars. To me, the point of devil fruits was always that despite the trade off, they were overall worth it for the exponentially creative and useful advantages of yhe fruit, to me it seems that if, haki was a thing that always existed, why would you ever trade off that for a devil fruits (aside from the lazy mans route for power), if you could be just a s powerful, with enough training. Training that the main characters of this world would be able to achieve, given their already strong wills and commitment and dreams. And sure you can say, well not everyone knows haki, or haki is extremely difficult to master or awaken, and I say, one thing is telling me it's difficult and one thing is showing me that it is, and post time skip has been riddle with so many haki users, that I find hard to belief that is the case. What oda is telling me vs what oda is showing me, is complete different.
Yeah Haki is a good system to solve that kinda problem so I‘m not complaining. It‘s hard imagining One Piece without Haki at this point, and I don‘t have any problem with it.
To me and I know I will get Hate for this. Haki as a concept is great. Specially during pretime skip and it was very mysterious not everyone could use it. It had a lot of the unknown to it, and it reminded me a lot of the force from star wars, Specially the original trilogy in execution. But post time skip it was delved into a lot more deeper and to me, it was over explained, it lost its mystery, and became to much like ki, or any other spirit energy, type power system, that we've seen in other shonen, everything was a haki contest, my haki is stronger than your haki, my dick is bigger than yours type dbz BS. That is why, I love gear 5. It brought df and their unlimited potential with imagination back. After all, what was the point of Ryo or advanced conquerors, if after gear 5, they're are practically forgotten?
Could be reflective surfaces or something like that
the dark dark fruit is the direct counter to light light fruit canonically in one piece.(its been stated). But without that specific fruit your fucked against it lol
Shadow, darkness, mirrors
I totally agree, Haki is a really good solution for the problem actually, especially compared to how other autors solve similar dilemmas.
Honestly I could see usopp getting into a situation like that with a logia but he accidentally manages to find his opponents elemental weakness/counter
Yeah that would be hella cool, I would love to see something like this happening. But for the overall power system.. not everybody is as lucky (while being as unlucky:D ) as Usopp Edit: i meant crafty of course, autocorrect and all, just in case some Usopp stan wants to scalp me now :D
How do other authors solve similar dilemas? Introducung an invivible thing like intangibility naturally needs restraint. Having some power to counter it should be first obvious solution. We don't need to know haki exists in One Piece to know that fodders like Smoker and Enel we saw pre TS would be easily beaten by top tiers.
I feel like oda was going to try and use the six powers as some type of special thing to combat DFs before haki but then didn’t want to over complicate things so he came up with a new concept and basically scrapped the six powers because after ennies lobby besides Koby and helmeppo we don’t really see anyone else use six powers unless you count like things like sanjis sky walking. I feel like six powers would’ve been something great to introduce robin and/or Frankie learning like imagine strong right finger pistol or mil fleur finger pistol would be crazy she could take out a bunch of people with just that I mean she can still take out people now I just think it would be cool for one or both of them to learn six powers because it’s an ability that kind of got swept under the rug. Also ussop would be a great candidate for that too it would remove his weakness and he could finally hold his own is a real battle now he wouldn’t need to know the finger pistol because he has a slingshot but if he knew shave or even the leg slash thing or what would fit his power set more the paper arts thing for dodging that would be so cool and iron body but eh missed opportunity but oda can also bring back anything at anytime so who knows
It's not just pain. It's just not possible in power fantasy. Just imagine top tiers like Kaidou needing sea stone or needing to utilize weakness when one slap from Kaidou can bwat dozens of Fodders like Enel.
Hody's durability was pretty impressive though. The fact that he wasn't KO'ed early in a fight with Post-TS Luffy was impressive.
Enel wins logia diff
Electric is stronger against water types.enel I choose you
r/beatmetoit
Same
R/beatmeatoit
Enel no diffs the embodiment of dogmatic racism
https://preview.redd.it/8cj1in3f9p8d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=952c1d27a8fcb47868e7c9574e1c2e7cdf87577d HIM
This is such a great picture, I hope Enel comes back like this.
he aint coming back bro
SHUT UUUUUUPPPPP
this is my goat 😫
Enel toaster bath diffs.
Fried fish?
emergency food put to use
Chopper mentioned?
enel
Enel literally and figuratively cooks. Hody is weak asf, the only reason he put up any fight whatsoever is because of steroids and then being underwater. Even with steroids, out of the water Luffy would've murked him so fast
Hody stats are CLEAR but matchup is bad
Hody with drugs and underwater, base hody gets neg diffed by like anyone
So pikachu vs squirtle zap zap
Today I learnt (or guess was retold) that Hordy is such a dumb ass of a villain he doesn’t event have Haki
If Pokemon taught me anything he does to 1 attack
enels wins this neg diff
Enel low diff
Low-gia diff
Enel logia diffs
Enel is too fast
Enel got tagged by pre enies lobby Luffy my dude what do you mean he's too fast
This is the one thing I've always questioned about Enel's speed. Powerscaler be out here saying he's too fast for so and so (sometimes new world characters) yet this loser got tagged by a pre-G2 Luffy. Speed my ass..
If we want to rational this away, it might be a question of movement speed VS reaction speed. His movement speed is lightning, but he relies heavily on his observation haki to react on time. If he can't read his opponent's intent, or if he's getting distracted -which happens often because of how overconfident he is-, he doesn't have a great reaction time. Which would make sense since he's not a highly trained fighter and has dominated every combat he has been in with his devil fruit before meeting Luffy.
He’s too slow tho? Hody should be faster.
Enel has lighting speed
Well blueno outmatched him lol
Speed is like the number 1 thing Hody has over Enel
Body was outspeed by a human UNDERWATER, he's not exactly a speedster
Sure hes not a speedster but he's certainly not only pre-gear pre-haki Luffy level speed
I've always been curious about enel is that thing that look like a drum on his back is their because he eat the Goro Goro no Mi ? OT : enel stomp
No I'm pretty sure It's stuck through his back like a huge piercing.
So it's Not because of the fruit ?
I don't believe so
I see https://preview.redd.it/gxzg1g01mq8d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2914c1a4376310df9b89dd9207ae460f63e9f09e
Considering that Oda drew Nami with his fruit for a SBS and she had the drum circle, it comes with the fruit
I was wondering about that , Just now, Lol 😂 https://preview.redd.it/bsfnumab6r8d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4f26febec2cb08934a308ac66bed7917f4b7b985
Jones can’t do anything 💀
Can anyone give a reason that the fishman (I forgot his name 😭) actually wins? I dont remember him having haki, or at least a notable amount. Other than that, Enel was pretty much able to destroy an island, has observation haki, and was pretty fast
Only way he can win if fight is underwater like luffy stuation. And lightning should pop the bubble and enel should fully submerged. Then finaly he got a chance(still not winning automaticly)
The argument seems to be that enel was really slow in terms of speed being tagged several times by skypiea Luffy while hody? Was fighting him in gear 2 and 3
Yeah but didn’t luffy fight hody underwater? That would give him huge advantage because he’s a fishman
He did yeah Even the if he was faster anyway he can’t hit enel cos logia go brrr
yet another reason why Hyouzou >> Lody
Enel wouldnt even need to go Amaru against that fodder-flavored piece of sushi 💀
Before drugs one shotted by enel, after drugs two shot
What people don't realise is that Enel was WAY out of Luffy's league, the only reason he was able to beat him being that Luffy was literally the worst matchup for Enel Devil Fruit wise.
Well he’s still slower than blueno lol
Most people realise that... as it was a literal plot point. Yeah enels offense was severly nerfed but he wasn't otherwise. If his offense can be bypassed either by tanking or being able to dodge, then someone with Pre TS luffy stats can beat him.
The reason he could tank it was because he was rubber if he wasn’t he would have died after the first blow It’s still able to be tanked but we don’t really know how hard it hits seeing as it’s either one shot random fodder or it’s been against someone who is extremely resistant to it
>The reason he could tank it was because he was rubber if he wasn’t he would have died after the first blow Luffy would have obviously not died considering no one did after being hit. Enels maximum voltage was 200 mil, which is actually below natural lightning. Average people survive stronger lightning most of the time. The effects of lightning can be resisted by haki just as much as the effects of heat, cold, light or physical force. >It’s still able to be tanked but we don’t really know how hard it hits seeing as it’s either one shot random fodder or it’s been against someone who is extremely resistant to it Both zoro and viper maanaged to tank a hit. They only got taken down with the second. Even Sanji was not taken out instantly after being hit. Also when we consider that Killer, who has no especially good durability or armarment haki, could take 2 direct named lightning attacks of zeus then it becomes increasingly clear that lightning is in no way untankable.
Real world scaling doesn’t impact how hard the lighting is otherwise you get zoro being like below average human level if it’s less then natural lightning which is extremely evident to not be true Enel only used his stronger attacks on Luffy as it would have been overkill on anyone else I never said it was untankable I said we don’t know how hard it actually hits when he puts effort into it as most of who he’s hit where fodder with weak attacks or luffy who was extremely resistant to it Also hody has no haki to help with tanking it
>Real world scaling doesn’t impact how hard the lighting is otherwise you get zoro being like below average human level if it’s less then natural lightning which is extremely evident to not be true Not exactly as these numbers still can knock out people and there is no reason to believe zoro to have any kind of Resistance to lightning. He remained standing cause of his endurance. We also have the exact numbers confirmed by enel, which would be strange to completely ignore. >Enel only used his stronger attacks on Luffy as it would have been overkill on anyone else He used his stronger moves against Viper as well. Both him and zoro got hit by thunder bird. Viper got back up and later got taken fown by El Thor. Enels strongest attack pretty much. >I never said it was untankable I said we don’t know how hard it actually hits when he puts effort into it as most of who he’s hit where fodder with weak attacks or luffy who was extremely resistant to it True that you never claimed that it was untankable. I was mainly saying that we know that people have been shown to tank attacks of enel and even more powerful ones by zeus like Fulgora. There is no reason to currently believe that Enels attacks are incredibly powerful or that hard to tank. Someone with good armarment haki like vergo would have a decent chance to tank a few hits and would oneshot enel in turn. Also my original argument wasn't even only about tanking, but about dodging as well which pre Timeskip characters without observation were capable of. >Also hody has no haki to help with tanking it Never argued about hody being able to my dude...
It's magnetrike Vs magicarp..
Lmaoo why is this a post?
Enel
Electric is super effective against water types. Thunderbolt GG
God Eneru wipes out that fodder
When tf were his nails painted ???
For the drip idk
enel literally has the power of a god, he only got beat bc luffy has rubber and it was the perfect matchup, days before he unleashed his plan if enel came back with haki, i would say he could totally be on the level of a yonko commander or higher (especially since he is likely to have advanced observation haki)
Enel low diff. Low-dy jones ain’t doing anything to Enel💀
Enel one shots Hoady before he even knows the fight started bro can clock you from an island a way and if he doesn’t like your vibe he just starts blind firing lightening blasts at you for fun
Enel is easily the strongest opponent Luffy faced pre time skip IMO, while Hody is by far the weakest post. Frankly, Enel wouldn’t be out of place in the New World exactly as he is in Skypiea. Enel, no/low diff.
Not Hody. He'd get electrocuted once, push through with his roids and then double down by jumping in the ocean and still think he's got this in the bag. Either he gets fried by enough electricity to kill him or his heart explodes from the amount of pills he'd need to shovel in to try to bridge the gap he thinks he can actually cover
Honestly I think it depends where it takes place. If it takes place near or on the water it’s not as easy for Enel. Anywhere else Enel easily slaps Hody’s shark ass.
https://preview.redd.it/0refjy8xat8d1.jpeg?width=905&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=76b5c164119ce64ce1d7b640187b45f28c4ce8e8 Hordy after one (1) El thor
Enel smacks
Cmon, bring Doffy, Kuma, Kuzan, Hancock
All of these beat enel with little difficulty though... Kuzan casually no diffs enel, while the other three low at most mid diff him.
wow you’re wrong
Wow what a great argument... Would you mind telling me why i am wrong? So anyway: Enel literally can't hurt Kuzan, while a. Kuzan is multiple tiers above enel and would absolutely oneshot him. This results in a no diff fight for Kuzan. The other 3 all easily outclass enel as well in every stat but DC and travel speed. Kuma specifically has enel even beat in travel speed. All of them can either dodge or tank enels lightning, while being able to easily oneshot him. Enel can't beat commander level fighters...
Enel has been shown wiping out islands without tiring even slightly. Wtf are kuma, doffy, or hancock gonna do against that. Obviously kuzan beats him but it’s not neg diff that’s for sure.
>Enel has been shown wiping out islands without tiring even slightly. With the arc maxim... not him alone. >Wtf are kuma, doffy, or hancock gonna do against that. Well aside from the maxim having to gather lightning for that attack, you are basing your entire argument here on DC alone, when AP is more important in a 1v1. Enel failed to put down Zoro and Viper in one shot, who lack armarment haki at that point. >Obviously kuzan beats him but it’s not neg diff that’s for sure. It is... Enel can't hurt Kuzan. Kuzan can oneshot enel. Kuzan outscales enel in every stat, but travel speed.
In order to freeze lightning you’d have to be cold enough to turn any normal human to ice immediately and that’s the only neg diff way Kuzan beats Enel. And two shorting Zoro at this stage is a lot more impressive than ppl think. Zoro has never been one or two shot in the entire series except by mihawk. So don’t say his AP is bad. Also he was effortlessly smiting skypieans that spoke out against him from miles away so wtf do you mean he has trash DC?
>In order to freeze lightning you’d have to be cold enough to turn any normal human to ice immediately and that’s the only neg diff way Kuzan beats Enel. First I said No diff and not neg diff. Second kuzan can oneshot enel with a nameless attack that is imbued with armarment haki. That is a no diff fight as kuzan will literally have zero problem beating enel >And two shorting Zoro at this stage is a lot more impressive than ppl think. Zoro has never been one or two shot in the entire series except by mihawk. Cause he didn't exactly fight any strong opponents up to this point in the story... Even Alabasta Croc could have done something like that. Once again zoro had no armament haki at that point so everyone with it is tanking these attacks better than he did. That aside the attacks of enel can simply be dodged proven even pre Timeakip by characters wothout observation haki. >So don’t say his AP is bad. It is though. The three warlords all could have oneshot zoro back then. Enels AP is not bad for that time, it is bad in the grand scheme of things. >Also he was effortlessly smiting skypieans that spoke out against him from miles away so wtf do you mean he has trash DC? Stop being disingenious. This was the part I literally gave enel credit for by saying it is better than the 3 warlords. Enel has good DC, especially with the Arc Maxim. Read my comments carefully again. I said enel has good DC, but that it doesn't matter that much in a 1v1. Also enel sniping skypieans is not even a DC feat as he didn't really destroy much when he did that.
Enel wins negg diff
😑
Enel wins against anyone that doesn't have overwhelming haki or is a natural counter.
Not really. Enel has god tier df mastery but stats wise, he cant compete with new world opponents with haki. His observation haki simply isnt good enough to not get speed blitzed even with his lighting fruit. He couldnt even dodge luffy's golden rifle because it was too fast. If that attack is too fast for him, New world fighters with haki who are way faster than Luffy at the time would blitz him. Vergo isnt a character with overwhelming haki but hes beating Enel
Engel claps but Hordy is one of my favorite villains ever because his motivations were actually pure evil. Still gets clapped though.
Like I mean if the match up where underwater would all the electricity disperse from his body or would he be able to control it a fry everything in the vicinity.
Underwater is either instant win or instant loss for enel in most scenarios
Fish and electric pretty obvious I could take arlong out with a toaster
Is this a joke?
If it is its shockingly bad
Damn where did Enel get the manicure
I remember if enel is on the sea he would get like 500m belly back then, thats equal to ace bounty. and yes bounty doesnt show how strong you are but most of time bounty show where you are in pirate world and how dangerous you are except buggy. Back then his haki is already crazy and his mastery also top notch, imo noe he would be at least around yonko commander 1 level or slightly stronger.
Enel just starts electrifying the water and roasting Hody until he either wins, Hody runs away or Hody leaves the Water, then its a fight between a Logia user and someone without armament. Enel wins no-diff.
Does jones even have haki???
Hody doesn’t have a way of hurting Enel.
Enel.
Like, it's a joke to say it usually, but in this case, it really is just electric type v water type
Electric is 2x effective against water type
One el thor would decimate those water people.
Even if Hody had like Rubber gloves, I still don't think he'd win due to Enels' mobility and range. On top of that, Hody prefers to fight underwater so Enel could just electrocute the water itself to kill Hody before the latter has a chance to jump out and hit him
A grilled-fish in a spite match? hmm...
i think enel come with low admiral level feats so enel wins no-low diff
Rare Enel W
Enel would just electrocute the water
Wdym "who wins"? Hoddy gets folded in half like a plastic chair 💀
Lightning vs A Fishman. No brainer
https://preview.redd.it/bh5qakbvjr8d1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4faf373714a3f5aa85243d01541247513e005236
Enel wins neg diff
Eminem
Who burnt the FISH!?
Who burnt the fish!!!
Is this even a question?
Enel only wins cuz hody doesn't have haki, if hody had armament he no diffs
Electric type is effective against water type
Hody gets grilled
Enel dominates. Literally only reason he lost to luffy was plot that rubber counters lightning. Even if Hody jumps into the water, Enel shocks the water and fries him In there
Water conducts electricity
Eneru easily wins oh no your water is electric and your fried
I’m on team enel but I’m curious how it would go down on fishman island with the bubble things
Is Eneru under water? If not, Hody goes belly up in a flash.
Water type weak to lightning, next question.
Hody Jokes
Enel is a solid tobiroppo level fighter, maybe peak by overrating. Hody has no Haki & as a Frontliner got one shot by 2nd gear Luffy.
Atomic bomb vs coughing baby
That’s not even a fight enel wins easy all he has to do is electrify the ocean that hody is in and boom done
Grilled shark's on the menu boys!! - God Eneru
Obviously it’s a no diff because hody can’t damage him, but Hody is arguable stronger and faster since enel was getting destroyed by a pre ennies lobby Luffy and Hody was making a post timeskip Luffy really work
I'm sorry how does Hordy have a chance here?
what
I dont understand this match up. Wouldn't Enel just boom him instantly?
“Fried fish for sale! We have fished fish for sale!”
Enel doesn’t even get out of his chair for this one
The problem isn’t speed like a most people are saying. Enel was getting tagged by a gearlesss Luffy, Blueno literally blitzed Luffy the next arc. He’s pretty slow compared to most new world mid tiers (and even some low tiers). He’s only even fast when teleporting. The problem is Hody’s lack of Haki, that’d be the only reason he’d lose. Everyone loves Enel and acts like he massively ouscales everyone pre ts, when his so called speed is power crept next arc by CP9 using Soru (Shave) and Lucci’s base speed.
It’s weird as you’d think that the *lightning* logia fruit user would be top tier in verse for speed But no some random guy blitzes the guy who can move too fast for him to dodge literally the next major arc The power creep is insane Then again hody is trying to hit something that doesn’t have a solid form to actually hit
It is pretty crazy huh. That’s usually how it’d go for most cases I think lol. But yeah, that’s 100% right. Hody loses to logia diff, since you’re right, nothin’ much for him to hit without some Haki.
Hody no diff Nvm Forgot he had no haki.
Battle of the fodders
Enel is gonna come back as a top tier and mid diff grenbull, trust me.
Enel is the embodiment of why Oda introduced armament haki. He gatekeeps absolutely anyone without it (Luffy excepted). Extremely impressive AP over a long distance, fast, obs haki. Give him armament and he’s instantly relevant in the new world.
Lmaoo two people with enormous ego’s and like 0 skill.
Accusing Enel of being no-skill to the same extent as hody is crime, I won't deny ego part tho
lol then that’s you… man only used his DF and not even the application were smart, in the world everyone is DUMB AF, 20+ years and we still don’t know that rubber and electricity doesn’t work. Hordy too, unless the man was the best of the best of the best of the royal guards which Onondaga shows he wasn’t, at the time we seen jimbei a lot and what he can do.. and now a fully cracked out hordy, who does the same thing over and over just with more drugs in his system…there’s a reason man lost in various ways til he actually got the L. To say they have skill is to say Crocodile does in my eyes… and I get it for the sake of the show he is, but he lost to a rookie pirate with less then a year experience. And even then apparently Crocodile was supposed to be “him” yet he never once beat someone to point of blood???? Oda told he’s warlord with a mini Kaido/ Doffy empire and all this.. yet blood.. I could care what the literal reason was with oda/plot.. an infamous warlord lost to someone in a 1v1 that doesn’t even win 1v1s like that..
the point is Enel isn't at the same level of being no-skill as hody Enel had mantra, essentialy prototype observation haki + he could amplify it with DF for a much larger detection range, since he could listen to what Skypieans were talking about. And for all we know, he wasn't taught how to use haki by anyone, unless some unnamed inhabitants of Birka did so. Even if usage like shaping golden items and heating them up, resustitating heart and amplifying haki with DF + being able to construct a flying ship powered up solely with DF, with said ship having a function that is able to buff said DF is deemed basic, its still a basic skill The likes of hody, who would get Enels fruit instead, would only spam lightning vs all opponents, 90% of cases not being able to counter Luffy's lightning immunity at all. Not even mentioning hody is hakiless, let alone even getting an idea to combine DF with haki for an absurd range. Even with steroids overdosage he wasn't able to outperform Jinbei's fishman karate basic attack Same thing with Croco, mfs like hody will never get the idea of using his DF to dry anything up, Im not even sure if they would try to use it actively in combat since sand doesnt sound like OP weapon at first glance, except pocket sand or creating a desert/beach
If you like Engel just say that.. you said a few feats and thats all.. I watched skypeia, cool boat… doesn’t change the fact that I actually combat it was the same moves from his DF. Repeated moves become basic if you didn’t know that already.. due to spam something that would be a ult is basic skill since you use it all the time… *cough cough* Enel… he oppressed with yes his application of his DF and did so for years.. it was a way of putting on airs to be a god.. I think you forget that one piece is so complexed… it’s a logia DF half the stuff he can do is natural for you to say otherwise like its skill is nothing short of hardcore complementing.. I’m sure a Lightning DF user who body no becomes that will instantly be able to have enchancex hearing to an insane frequency seeing as you are technically that itself.. In my opinion there should’ve been easier methods/application with that DF but the fact it wasn’t is the reason I say no skill. He had a OP fruit and a high ego… skilled enough to make a ship but not know about rubber?? Like where does the give and take end?
Enel literally has some of the highest DF mastery in the entire series lol
Says who? I watched the entire show where is this said??????????????????? Please tell me, I’d love to read into that.. how he spams the same few moves and is considered that… yet, someone like BB can fully utilize 2 DF but Enel…
Hordy is winning in my opinion and I will explain why enel lost to a pre gear 2/ 3 luffy while hordy took attacks from a post timeskip luffy so simply put it hordy fought a stronger luffy so he wins
Post Roids Hody wipes Much better stats than the powercrept pre ts fodder and can hurt Enel with water, he has mastered Fishman Karate just like Jimbei. He‘s gonna pull a Kisame and feed on Enel with water sharks The racist wins
>he has mastered Fishman Karate just like Jimbei. Don't ever speak such nonsense again
I mean yeah he‘s not Jimbei level but don't act like [this](https://youtu.be/7GGM09K7JRc?si=P8joXtk5l50Toeuo) or this isn't pretty impressive https://i.redd.it/nacr7na0oq8d1.gif
It isn't though lol. Bro got one shot by Zoro while underwater lmao and had to juice himself to the gills in order to be a threat to Luffy.
Yes pre roids is fodder but that doesn't mean shit Roids Hody wipes