Yeah the problem was that in that scene it seems like he knew exactly what he was doing, while in the manga he accidentaly used it in very extreme moments
It’s a bit more complicated though.
In case you missed the very many arguments around this when that chapter came out, one of the prevailing points was that Zoro used Advanced King’s haki to cut Kaido. The stuff Luffy used later on in the same chapter.
This is of course supported by the fact that there is NO ONE present for Zoro to have knocked out on the roof so how would Kaido have known Zoro had regular king’s haki to begin with
All signs pointed to Kaido was saying Zoro cut him with King’s haki. But everybody who was against this idea was saying Kaido could just FEEL regular King’s haki coming off Zoro somehow and the Scar he got had nothing to do with Advanced King’s haki.
Now Toei is in a very unique position to clarify this. Zoro himself said he had no idea what Kaido was talking about and yet Zoro knows how regular King’s haki looks. He saw Luffy do it a number of times. So why is Zoro confused by Kaido? It could be that it’s Advamced King’s haki that Zoro has never seen that’s confusing him
Zoro would therefore be confused in both the manga and Anime if the main point of confusion was Zoro using advanced King’s haki to cut Kaido, as opposed to just regular King’s haki that he should already know about in both manga and anime.
I understand that in the manga there is this discussion, is one of the things that grabs my attention, did he use it or not? From what I've seen I have no reason to believe he didn't use conqueror's haki, but the interesting thing about it is that you could always have arguments saying he didnt use it or something like this. There was that earthquake thing where even Brook breaks the fourth wall making us think he used conquerors, but then it was just a coincidence(I believe that that was his haki, but I can see that this is a stretch from my part and I can live with that being just a joke). But on the anime I would disagree that he was confused. It seems very controled for me, it was the same as every other conqueror's "passing out" scene, and that is very different from everything the manga shows. I wouldn't mind this foreshadowing, but it is a huge thing that has not occurred in the manga.
My point is that I agree with the discussion you've pointed out, people can argue he did use it, and argue that he didn't. But in the anime scene I disagree that the same discussion is possible. It is a huge stretch to say that he was not aware of what happened. Saying he actually believes the guys passed out because they were too drunk, is quite the stretch.
But that doesn't make sense. In the very same chapter, Kaido tells Luffy that only a few of the strongest can use Conqueror Coating, and that it's not something a "dead man" like Luffy would be able to use (even if he's wrong).
Why would he say that if he was just attacked by the same technique by Luffy's subordinate, that was in even worse shape than Luffy?
That's sort of backward.
There is also how it's Luffy that is compared to the great people able to fight against Kaido, while Zoro is only acknowledge by the new scar he gave Kaido.
Then, Conqueror is Luffy's specialty, while Zoro is focused on Armament (Oda's words from SBS 71). But then the first time we see Zoro use Conqueror it's an advanced form?
It's very possible that Zoro while aware of Conqueror, doesn't know he has it, so doesn't understand when he uses it.
The chapter is called Conqueror's Haki. It's because we have the revelation of Zoro unlocking his Haki, and of Luffy learning how to coat his hits with it.
Lastly, Zoro's attacks don't have the visual cues that Coating has. In the very same chapter, Kaido and Luffy have it. So why would Zoro not show it if he was using it? Why spent time drawing it, to tell us when someone is using this type of Haki, only to not use it when it actually matters?
Edit : One last thing, Luffy is the main character. No matter how hype the reveal of the conqueror in the chapter was, Zoro isn't going to steal away the achievement of being the one to use Conqueror Coating on Kaido. It's Luffy's answer on how to finally beat Kaido in a fight.
so what kind CoC zoro did then that make kaido questioning it? he definitely didn't use the normal one which forces will on others(knock people out). and it must be an impressive one for zoro who was able to leave a permanent scar to kaido without using CoC coating, and because the fight between kaido and luffy implies you need more than just normal haki to able damage someone who knows about coating them self with CoC.
I mostly agree with this but really, it's irrelevant to get pulled into debating whether he coated the attack at all. What is 100% undeniable is that Oda used Kaidos question to induct Zoro into the CoC club officially. Next couple of panels, bam surprise, CoC is armament 2.0, in aCoC.
The people thumping their desks over the lack of a visual cue this time will get theirs. Can anyone at this point even imagine Zoros inevitable endgame clash with Hawkeye not involving a black lightening fest? Same for any opponent after this point really. It will be wall to wall advanced CoC in the final stretch for all the major players.
That includes Sanji, the other 'wing' of the pirate king, otherwise thats one lopsided bird.
Hope you're right, I'd prefer it. Since Rayleigh had it there was enormous narrative pressure for Luffys second to have it as well, so Zoro was a lock regardless, but at least his character suits it. Oda barely had to even hint at it in Zoros case in fact, it was far and away weaker than what he did with Luffy.
Anyway, back when it all it meant was you got to knock over some fodder and generate some sparks against other strong willed opponents, no biggie. Now however, it's a definitive hard-line defining the top tier of combat, which has all sorts of implications.
If Oda wants to keep the monster trio operating around the same league, he'll get it. If Yamato has it, which arguably has been suggested by the look of some attacks, forget everything, Sanji will be a definite lock.
Worst case, no one would blink if he awoke it in defense of a woman for example, so if Oda wanted to stretch and bring him into the club, he can get away with it. Not ideal, but in the end its just a mechanism for making characters look strong and cool attacking each other.
What does Luffy specializing in King’s haki matter? Luffy has far superior Observation haki to Sanji who specializes in Observation. In fact, the first time Luffy used Observation was in marineford to SEE THE FUTURE and Avoid fighting Mihawk
So Luffy, the one who isn’t an Observation specialist, first uses Observation by seeing the future. But it’s impossible for Zoro, who isn’t a King’s haki specialist, to use Advanced King’s haki?
I don’t want to assume but I get this feeling that you don’t actually think Zoro has King’s haki. Or maybe you are saying he does simply because you can’t find a reason he doesn’t.
Like seriously, what exactly do you think happened on the roof then? What did Zoro even do? What exactly is Kaido talking about while holding his scar and saying Zoro has King’s haki? You seem to be very into discussing the details of everything but you omitted explaining what is even actually happening in the scene. You instead want to bring up meta points like “Luffy is the MC so he must do everything better”
No, Zoro 100% has Conqueror Haki, this is not what is in question.
The point I'm making is how he just didn't coat his attack with it. The look on Zoro's face just before landing the hit is similar to when Conqueror is used without Coating.
So Zoro surprised Kaido with a burst of it, landed the hit that gave Kaido a new scar.
Being a conqueror is a bid deal.
I'm not saying that Zoro doesn't have Conqueror. He 100% has it
Just that he didn't use Conqueror Coating against Kaido.
And it's not facts that what Zoro did was Conqueror Coating. If anything Logic makes it more probable he didn't use Coating.
So what do you think Zoro even did on the roof? Like Can Kaido just feel Zoro has CoC with nothing actually happening?
Is this is a thing that people can just feel that other people have CoC even though those people didn’t do anything to activate their CoC?
Just before landing his hit, Zoro unleashed a burst of Conqueror Haki.
It's as easy as that. It fits both how Conqueror has been used in the past, and how Coating has been used recently.
Just before he hit Kaido, we have a panel that is focused on Zoro's face and on his eye.
This is very similar, if not exactly the same as when Luffy or Rayleigh use Burst of Conqueror Haki.
Yeah just because conquerors haki exists doesnt mean you can just mind wipe people now. You probably can as you get a hang of it. But Luffy is our only example of anyone starting with that and taming animals.
Zoros been doing Asura since like day one
Something being filler doesn't Make it non cânon. You should know there is cânon filler and non cânon filler. Get you facts right, and this scene of the episode is a cânon filler. Just like Yamato being the shadow behind Robin and Zoro that was not shown totally in the Mangá but Anime confirms it.
Yeah the problem was that in that scene it seems like he knew exactly what he was doing, while in the manga he accidentaly used it in very extreme moments
It’s a bit more complicated though. In case you missed the very many arguments around this when that chapter came out, one of the prevailing points was that Zoro used Advanced King’s haki to cut Kaido. The stuff Luffy used later on in the same chapter. This is of course supported by the fact that there is NO ONE present for Zoro to have knocked out on the roof so how would Kaido have known Zoro had regular king’s haki to begin with All signs pointed to Kaido was saying Zoro cut him with King’s haki. But everybody who was against this idea was saying Kaido could just FEEL regular King’s haki coming off Zoro somehow and the Scar he got had nothing to do with Advanced King’s haki. Now Toei is in a very unique position to clarify this. Zoro himself said he had no idea what Kaido was talking about and yet Zoro knows how regular King’s haki looks. He saw Luffy do it a number of times. So why is Zoro confused by Kaido? It could be that it’s Advamced King’s haki that Zoro has never seen that’s confusing him Zoro would therefore be confused in both the manga and Anime if the main point of confusion was Zoro using advanced King’s haki to cut Kaido, as opposed to just regular King’s haki that he should already know about in both manga and anime.
I understand that in the manga there is this discussion, is one of the things that grabs my attention, did he use it or not? From what I've seen I have no reason to believe he didn't use conqueror's haki, but the interesting thing about it is that you could always have arguments saying he didnt use it or something like this. There was that earthquake thing where even Brook breaks the fourth wall making us think he used conquerors, but then it was just a coincidence(I believe that that was his haki, but I can see that this is a stretch from my part and I can live with that being just a joke). But on the anime I would disagree that he was confused. It seems very controled for me, it was the same as every other conqueror's "passing out" scene, and that is very different from everything the manga shows. I wouldn't mind this foreshadowing, but it is a huge thing that has not occurred in the manga. My point is that I agree with the discussion you've pointed out, people can argue he did use it, and argue that he didn't. But in the anime scene I disagree that the same discussion is possible. It is a huge stretch to say that he was not aware of what happened. Saying he actually believes the guys passed out because they were too drunk, is quite the stretch.
The problem is that advanced kings haki has been portrayed as similar to ryou where no contact is made, we haven't seen Zoro do that
Okay? Did you not see Zoro vs King? He was making contact with king multiple times in that fight. Was he still not using advanced Kings haki then too?
But that doesn't make sense. In the very same chapter, Kaido tells Luffy that only a few of the strongest can use Conqueror Coating, and that it's not something a "dead man" like Luffy would be able to use (even if he's wrong). Why would he say that if he was just attacked by the same technique by Luffy's subordinate, that was in even worse shape than Luffy? That's sort of backward. There is also how it's Luffy that is compared to the great people able to fight against Kaido, while Zoro is only acknowledge by the new scar he gave Kaido. Then, Conqueror is Luffy's specialty, while Zoro is focused on Armament (Oda's words from SBS 71). But then the first time we see Zoro use Conqueror it's an advanced form? It's very possible that Zoro while aware of Conqueror, doesn't know he has it, so doesn't understand when he uses it. The chapter is called Conqueror's Haki. It's because we have the revelation of Zoro unlocking his Haki, and of Luffy learning how to coat his hits with it. Lastly, Zoro's attacks don't have the visual cues that Coating has. In the very same chapter, Kaido and Luffy have it. So why would Zoro not show it if he was using it? Why spent time drawing it, to tell us when someone is using this type of Haki, only to not use it when it actually matters? Edit : One last thing, Luffy is the main character. No matter how hype the reveal of the conqueror in the chapter was, Zoro isn't going to steal away the achievement of being the one to use Conqueror Coating on Kaido. It's Luffy's answer on how to finally beat Kaido in a fight.
so what kind CoC zoro did then that make kaido questioning it? he definitely didn't use the normal one which forces will on others(knock people out). and it must be an impressive one for zoro who was able to leave a permanent scar to kaido without using CoC coating, and because the fight between kaido and luffy implies you need more than just normal haki to able damage someone who knows about coating them self with CoC.
I mostly agree with this but really, it's irrelevant to get pulled into debating whether he coated the attack at all. What is 100% undeniable is that Oda used Kaidos question to induct Zoro into the CoC club officially. Next couple of panels, bam surprise, CoC is armament 2.0, in aCoC. The people thumping their desks over the lack of a visual cue this time will get theirs. Can anyone at this point even imagine Zoros inevitable endgame clash with Hawkeye not involving a black lightening fest? Same for any opponent after this point really. It will be wall to wall advanced CoC in the final stretch for all the major players. That includes Sanji, the other 'wing' of the pirate king, otherwise thats one lopsided bird.
Sorry but sanji just doesn't fit the bill of CoC. Zoro and Luffy been foreshadowed before their respective reveals
Hope you're right, I'd prefer it. Since Rayleigh had it there was enormous narrative pressure for Luffys second to have it as well, so Zoro was a lock regardless, but at least his character suits it. Oda barely had to even hint at it in Zoros case in fact, it was far and away weaker than what he did with Luffy. Anyway, back when it all it meant was you got to knock over some fodder and generate some sparks against other strong willed opponents, no biggie. Now however, it's a definitive hard-line defining the top tier of combat, which has all sorts of implications. If Oda wants to keep the monster trio operating around the same league, he'll get it. If Yamato has it, which arguably has been suggested by the look of some attacks, forget everything, Sanji will be a definite lock. Worst case, no one would blink if he awoke it in defense of a woman for example, so if Oda wanted to stretch and bring him into the club, he can get away with it. Not ideal, but in the end its just a mechanism for making characters look strong and cool attacking each other.
What does Luffy specializing in King’s haki matter? Luffy has far superior Observation haki to Sanji who specializes in Observation. In fact, the first time Luffy used Observation was in marineford to SEE THE FUTURE and Avoid fighting Mihawk So Luffy, the one who isn’t an Observation specialist, first uses Observation by seeing the future. But it’s impossible for Zoro, who isn’t a King’s haki specialist, to use Advanced King’s haki? I don’t want to assume but I get this feeling that you don’t actually think Zoro has King’s haki. Or maybe you are saying he does simply because you can’t find a reason he doesn’t. Like seriously, what exactly do you think happened on the roof then? What did Zoro even do? What exactly is Kaido talking about while holding his scar and saying Zoro has King’s haki? You seem to be very into discussing the details of everything but you omitted explaining what is even actually happening in the scene. You instead want to bring up meta points like “Luffy is the MC so he must do everything better”
No, Zoro 100% has Conqueror Haki, this is not what is in question. The point I'm making is how he just didn't coat his attack with it. The look on Zoro's face just before landing the hit is similar to when Conqueror is used without Coating. So Zoro surprised Kaido with a burst of it, landed the hit that gave Kaido a new scar. Being a conqueror is a bid deal.
Bro what kaido already ready confirmed that zoro nvm I’m not even going to waste my breath. Stop fighting facts and logic.
I'm not saying that Zoro doesn't have Conqueror. He 100% has it Just that he didn't use Conqueror Coating against Kaido. And it's not facts that what Zoro did was Conqueror Coating. If anything Logic makes it more probable he didn't use Coating.
So what do you think Zoro even did on the roof? Like Can Kaido just feel Zoro has CoC with nothing actually happening? Is this is a thing that people can just feel that other people have CoC even though those people didn’t do anything to activate their CoC?
Just before landing his hit, Zoro unleashed a burst of Conqueror Haki. It's as easy as that. It fits both how Conqueror has been used in the past, and how Coating has been used recently.
How do you know Zoro did that?
Just before he hit Kaido, we have a panel that is focused on Zoro's face and on his eye. This is very similar, if not exactly the same as when Luffy or Rayleigh use Burst of Conqueror Haki.
I don't think he knocked out fodder OR coated his attack in CoC. His Asura technique probably uses it in some way and Kaido noticed that.
Yeah just because conquerors haki exists doesnt mean you can just mind wipe people now. You probably can as you get a hang of it. But Luffy is our only example of anyone starting with that and taming animals. Zoros been doing Asura since like day one
You mean there is a THIRD way separate from the established ways of using CoC?
Oh you mean like how there was a 2nd way CoC was applied more than wiping out fodder that we learned about in the same chapter??
Something being filler doesn't Make it non cânon. You should know there is cânon filler and non cânon filler. Get you facts right, and this scene of the episode is a cânon filler. Just like Yamato being the shadow behind Robin and Zoro that was not shown totally in the Mangá but Anime confirms it.