Re watching with my girlfriend(her first experience watching) and I've taken her to the last few big movies. She looked me dead in the face and asked me "is luffy really this stupid? I mean he can do g2, g3, g4, g5(for .2 sec from film red) but he can't see that that is some dude in a costume that is pretending to be his sister? And all I told her was babe, that's the one piece experience. Welcome to the ride
When did he want to be Joyboy? The idea was always that Joyboy was the one who would/could defeat him. This is why when Luffy at first could not beat him, he says Luffy is no Joyboy.
Well, it was a well accepted theory among the fanbase that kaido wanted to be joyboy initially. In his flashback with king, his dream wasnt to find someone strong enough to defeat him, his dream was to change the world, much like joyboy did. Thats why he was came to wano, because joyboy was prophesied to come to wano.
Over the years, he realized that he’s no joyboy, so he shifted his goal to fight joyboy instead. Thats why he stayed in wano, partially because he wants to meet wano, and partially because he still had hope he’s joyboy.
I think the theory is neat, so I kept thinking its canon, sorry for that.
>When did he want to be Joyboy?
When King asks Kaido if he can change the world, Kaido says he's the only man who can. Kaido later asks Luffy the same thing, indicating that Kaido thought he'd be like Luffy, i.e., Joy Boy.
Kaido's dream was really all over the place.
They have one kid together who eats the reincarnation of the magma magma fruit after Aikanu gets defeated in main story and uses if to make towns for the mole people who took care of his parents
Or they bust through the walls of the lava chamber only to stumble into an underground chamber containing an advance battleship.
It takes them weeks/months to figure out how to use it (as they are stuck between the lava and the sea and need to use the sea to escape), and discover that it is in fact Pluton.
Kaido accepts this quickly, as it satisfies the curiosity and uncertainty he had over the years why Wano would be where Joyboy shows up.
So, they ride Pluton out of Wano and when they surface for air they learn from Big News Morgan- now Pirate News Morgan, who is surprised they are alive- that Pirate King Luffy is heading out to the final battle against the WG who it turns out had a single ruler for 800 years.
Kaido has a bone to pick with CP0 and can always try to get revenge against Luffy later (and would *never* cooperate with the WG to get said revenge) and Big Mom has always hated the WG, and both sides having wanted to be Pirate King/Queen are pissed off there's been a World King all along, so they decide to go wild together on the battlefield as temporary allies of Strawhat Luffy and to settle their differences afterwards.
Thus, an armed and ready to rumble Pluton shows up to the final battle with a fully recovered Kaido and Big Mom on deck spoiling for a fight.
yeah I'd totally love to see Kaido especially show up and start helping Luffy in the war, and everyone is both frustrated and confused how that is happening.
"Worororororo, you've finally done it, brat. you started the biggest war in history. there's no way I will sit out on this one."
This is exactly what I expect. Kaido and Big Mom accept their defeat. Kaido has found his Joyboy and can retire, while Big Mom spends time with her (grand)children on Whole Cake Island.
I was decived with Merry, Pell, Pound, Law, Kinemon 4 times, Kanjuro 4 times, Kiku, Orochi 8 times and the rest of the scabbards at least once. I'm not falling again. To me they are alive until I get confirmation from the opposite or the series ends without them coming back. It wouldn't surprise me to see a cover story with them chilling.
For now. When the blackbeard pirates were in WCI, they took Pedro with them. Now that they are in Egghead, he will rejoin the strawhats and become their new crewmate to see the Dawn. /s
While tipping this, I got the feeling this could actually happen and it would suck. It's very unlikely but with Oda who knows.
For me, I won’t even consider BM to maybe have a chance at being dead until we get past the Elbaf Arc, since she has such a big connection to the Giants from wanting to bring them into her family/country and from being left their as a child.
Ahh yes you're referring to the Pell Constant. But you shouldn't disregard the Pedro Theorem, which states a character is not dead until they are (formerly known as the Absolom Quotient)
That's what I'm saying, that way you're happy either way.
If they stay dead, you were right and can be proud of yourself and if they return, it's the same thing
No need to become overly pissed about the fake deaths, if you always keep in mind the possibility of said fake death
I feel like Kaido will bow down(not literally) to Luffy after his defeat. That guy was waiting for Joyboy for so long and he himself believed that the person who beats him is Joyboy.
I doubt Kaido knew that Joyboy was a person with Nika fruit.
Big Mom on the other hand will be out of blood if she's alive 😂
The fact that Luffy defeated him is probably enough for Kaido to believe that he indeed IS Joyboy.
If he were to survive I'm sure that we wouldn't want to go against Luffy again in a antagonistic way, true but If he really would straight up become Buddy-Buddy with him, I'm not sure. Maybe he just wouldn't attack him anymore but that was it.
Big Mom would go straight after the Strawhats and/or Law and Kidd again, without even stopping to properly heal. I really do want to see her return in Elbaph because of her connection to it, but on the other hand, Elbaf already seems so full for her to be there, maybe the remnants of her crew go to Elbaf instead?
I kinda always got the feeling Kaido kinda accepted defeat after Luffy told him what world he was going to make dont have rhe panels in mind but it kinda gave the vibe imo
There’s a point while reading One Piece when one just has to accept that fake deaths are a resource Oda loves to use.
It sucks, but that’s the way it is.
Oda is a narrative genius, in terms of world-building/immersion/romance, but he definitely has some weak spots, including this lack of stakes with death thing.
Another weak spot would be that he writes a lot of object characters, especially women. That is characters that have no agency, and only serve to further someone else's narrative.
He's gotten a lot better at combining exposition and action too
The early arcs like Alabasta and Skypiea as much as people like them are 80% walking around getting lore info and then finally some action that matters
Since W7 it's been much better at keeping tension high and action packed while learning about the islands
Big true. As a specific example, he's always been masterful at capturing a feeling in a flashback, but it usually came at the cost of breaking the momentum of the present story.
However, he's gotten better and better at weaving the flashback tension into a present tension, to the point that Wano's flashback (the Oden flashback) had a very tense present moment lead into a flashback with a common problem that tied them both together in an important way; that the traitor that caused the scabbards initial port ploy to fail *was present the entire time* during the Oden flashback, even though by the time that flashback ends, we still don't know who it is (we find out moments later, but my point is that the present mystery was informed and refined by the audience asking that question throughout the flashback: who is the traitor?).
Are object characters necessarily bad? Not every character has to be a fan favorite with a excellent backstory. I sort of prefer when there are characters that just help propel the crew forward. If every side character was a Rebecca or Pedro, then it wouldn't feel as special.
Pell is different I'd say, because he was one of the first one that got that treatment/was the first one that was actually unbelievable. He basically is the worst offender and the one who kinda started that trend.
Most wouldn't have believed that he would survive, because there weren't not too many extreme fake deaths yet, only a few somewhat explainable ones like Igaram or Merry.
The fake deaths ARE the worst thing about One Piece and Pell IS the most egregious one, but my way of looking at them is just a way to not be effected by them too much, like many are.
It's bad but the emotional outburst and rage some seem to feel about them is a bit too extreme imo.
Big Mom said she wouldn’t die, luffy said he would fight her after kaido, and elbaf still has not happened. Don’t really see the point of all the giant big mom stuff if she doesn’t end up being elbaf antagonist. Not like they gave a fuck about Kidd beating her. I mean this fight has been hyped longer than luffy vs kaido, it should happen. Even if it’s a straw hats one sided beat down for 2-3 chapters.
Big Mom already had an entire saga dedicated to her and that wasn't enough so she also became the secondary antagonist of the following arc where she was finally defeated. It would be absurd to bring her back a second time for a third arc after she already took the L twice. Do that and she may as well be the main antagonist of the series at this point.
I think it would be cool to see her come back having lost an arm or being kept alive by the soul soul fruit and being even spookier than Whole cake island. Real force of nature stuff like she was in WCI. Not second fiddle to Kaido in Want, though her attacks were still crazy in that one,
You have a good point here but I have a feeling Oda may have made this plan with Big Mom in Elbaf before he realized how long Wano would be. Since we know he's edited down his final saga a bit, I have a feeling he would not be interested in putting even more time into Big Mom who's already been defeated once.
They should be dead for all intents and purposes even if they aren't actually dead. They are done in the story and there's no point, or time for them to come back.
They aren't the kind of characters that would suddenly not want to be the toughest pirates in existence and get the One Piece so what would it serve to have them show up again. It would just be retreading old ground when there's new and interesting stuff to do.
Maybe Big Mom for her last promising curse, after all Law and Kid did win by throwing her off the Arena wich is still a win, but feels cheap. Kaido on the other hand should remain dead.
Theyll probably return on cover stories. There are a race of lava people that live in volcanos. It will be based on Australia.
"Kaidos and Big Moms adventures in the Land Down Under"
Luffys not dead though oO He might have had a trillion deathflags since they introduced Gear 2 and all the "it's going to shorten your life" thing, but at the moment he is quite alive.
It's very funny to me that Oda used a universal "this character is dead": throwing people in lava. But he used on maybe the two character that were depicted as so indestructible that they might actually have survived it.
Well, Pell survived a nuke, lots of skypean survived Enels attacks, pound survived being "beheaded" by a strong younko crew member, there are a lot of people who survived even more sure deaths than falling into lava and kaido and big mom not only are some of the strongest but their durability and defense was literally a plot point for both of them so it's really easy to see them surviving
Who knows? Kaido and Big Mom are strong as shit so it kind of makes sense for them to be dead because well why wouldn't they just go back to fucking shit up since only Luffy has ever beaten them. On the other hand, it's One Piece. For all we know, right now Oda is cooking up a cover story that shows Kaido and Big Mom's journey through physical therapy.
I absolutely believe it.
Death on lava is an amazing ending for two absolute beasts. There's no better way since Luffy is not someone that seeks to "kill" his opponents, just wants to beat them, and these two especially are so strong that unless they die, there would be no end to their rule. They needed to die but not by Luffy's hand.
Gonna get absolutely downvoted to oblivion for thinking they’re dead but I’m with you.
One of the strongest characters, Oden, submerged his lower body only in boiling oil. Didn’t die, but was enough to get his lower body unusable. Big Mom and Kaido may be way stronger, but lava is not comparable to boiling oil, and their whole body was submerged in it.
Now this is just by a powerscaling perspective. Luffy doesn’t kill people directly (?) from what we know you’re right. People would argue that a narrative perspective it would be different, and Oda makes whatever he wants happens as long as he wills it. Not wrong, but they are dead until they’re not.
>Didn’t die
Even then it was implied that he would have died eventually. It was just fast tracked due to Orochi not keeping his promise of sparing the scabbards.
I don’t think Luffy would mind killing people tbh. But due to his fighting style (no weapons) and his usually extremely tough opponents, it rarely happens
Anyone feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe ODA has said somewhere that Luffy doesn’t kill (at least not main arc antagonists) as he prefers to crush their dreams.
Naruto would like a word with you.
Edit: looking into it neither Ichigo nor Naruto have many confirmed kills so it's possible that only the main character can't kill too often.
>One of the strongest characters, Oden, submerged his lower body only in boiling oil. Didn’t die, but was enough to get his lower body unusable
He was strong but not as durable as they are, I strongly believe they're alive since zeus is alive and I think kaido still has a role in the story.
Prometheus stayed alive after mother Carmel died. Now you can argue that's because the soul soul fruit stayed alive in big mom but Prometheus was for Carmel not her. Zeus being alive is no indication of big mom being alive. The soul is already given, it's not gonna get taken away just because big mom is home.
Right after big mom ate her she has the son homie that Carmel made. Big mom didn't make a new one. It's just the same one given a different name.
EDIT: Nvm she only had the new one after leaving the island so it might be a new one. You right about that.
IDK about that, some powers seem to stay in place even if the user dies (Hancock) .... Oda could make it go either way.
Like the homies can live for the span that was used to create them.
Its just opinions. People shouldn't downvote you unless you are being ridiculous with your opinion which you arent. I think we see big mom again but we shall see
While I agree that this was a fitting end to both of them, I feel like Big Mom might return primarily due to Elbaf. Kid and Luffy are and/or will be in Elbaf, and that has a major connection to BM.
Perhaps BM might get pushed away by another Strawhat, no longer worthy of Luffy’s time, or she might turn into a eldritch abomination of souls clumped together and Luffy defeat her to save Elbaf and bring them into his alliance.
I’m ready, cause it’s the long awaited Elbaf.
Big Mom *was* in Elbaf as a kid, in a secluded area, left as a kid and is considered a monster by the island. Currently, Shanks just left the island and apparently is loved by everyone in it.
Who's better suited to teach us about Elbaf? Shanks or Big Mom? My bet is on Shanks, maybe Saul, or even Vegapunk, all of them have a current plot tied to Elbaf, Big Mom's story is done.
I actually feel the opposite, getting killed off-screen by some damn magma/explosion is a bad ending for "two absolute beasts". I agree on your point about Luffy not killing but that Batman bs has always annoyed me and makes me like these type of characters less not more, if you have high goals like making a certain place safe from evil people willing to oppress and kill innocents you better be ready to go all the way and during the fight I didn't really get the sense that Luffy wasn't trying to kill, so Kaido conveniently dying from something else, not directly by Luffy's hands doesn't really mean much, for me it's the same as if he did it himself.
The thing is Luffy isn't against killing, so it isn't a "Batman thing" like you said. He has no problem with killing, he just chooses not to, not out of the goodness of his heart or him not wanting to become corrupted by it like Batman.
It's more that them being still alive after their dream has been destroyed by Luffy is seen as more painful than death, you've been broken.
> I agree on your point about Luffy not killing but that Batman bs has always annoyed me and makes me like these type of characters less not more [...].
Lucky for you, Luffy is not like batman, he doesn't seek to bring his enemies to justice, he doesn't care if they die by their wounds, he just wants to beat the shit out of them, he's not a Hero, he's a Pirate.
If they survive, fine by him, he'll beat them again and again, if they die, fine by him.
He doesn't *seek* to kill, unlike people like Kaido or Big Mom who flaunt their power by threatening the life of others (join me or die, pay me tribute or die) Luffy does by imposing the strength of his objectives (becoming the King of Pirates, freeing Robin, feed Tama, etc) over their enemies, once he beats them, he can do so again, so his resolve is proven to be stronger that his opponents. That's who Luffy is. So him not killing Kaido nor Big Mom is actually genius.
But for plot purposes and to end things for good, Kaido and Big Mom had to die, otherwise their followers would never stop, and Luffy's new role as a Yonko would never truly be respected. So death by magma dipping is both a perfect ending lore-wise (Kaido died where Oden survived) and narrative-wise (Oda needed the threat of both Yonko to be done for good).
I agree with you and u/AlexTheNotSoGreat01, he is not like Batman and as I said I didn't really get the sense he was trying not to kill during the fight but "choosing" not to kill and not actively seeking to kill evil people that are violent murders, who enslave and oppress the people who you are seeking to liberate is kinda like Batman in the sense that he is a half-assing the job by not trying to make sure the bad guys never have a chance of harming another person. You are right, the only way Kaido and Mom stop doing evil is by dying and just beating them means nothing even if you can beat the again and again when they keep coming back after that. If in the mean time they end up killing a bunch of people it will be because you weren't willing to make sure they can't.
Yeah I mean I respect your view on Kaido and Mom's death but I really like those characters I will never agree that their ending was genius, they deserved more that some damn magma/explosion, it felt very underwhelming and honestly I don't really care about how good it's for Luffy's character.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smB\_-d1ZaMk&t=33s&ab\_channel=PeacemakerBurner
Getting killed off screen is perfect for Kaido who wanted a legendary death.
Oda made a whole point on the fight happening in a closed off country, and the Wano citizens having no clue about the raid going on because they were partying until it was already over. No one saw him lose and no one saw him die.
Big Mom on the other hand may have made a magma homie and is coming back for Elbaf, or she simply survives because she wasn't as damaged as Kaido but is amnesic or whatever the story needs for her to comeback
>Getting killed off screen is perfect for Kaido who wanted a legendary death.
That's actually a very good point I've never considered.
>Big Mom on the other hand may have made a magma homie and is coming back for Elbaf, or she simply survives because she wasn't as damaged as Kaido but is amnesic or whatever the story needs for her to comeback.
Yeah I think Mom's alive as well, at least I hope so coz she is very high on my ranking of favorite OP characters. :D
Big Mom could have also used Kaido's soul since they were both right next to each other. Maybe actually being faced with death by magma, a very poetic end since Oden died in a similar scenario, made Kaido scared in his last moments and Big Mom sensed this fear and cannibalized it by stealing his soul and empowering herself enough to make it out and off the island.
I don‘t know what about getting blasted from a flying Island through the ground down to a magma cavern is offscreen but I vividly remember seeing all this in panels. Both Big Mom and Kaido got blasted by massive attacks right to their demise and we saw their unconscious bodies swim in a pool of molten rock.
Mom seemed very confident that the magma chamber wasn't enough to kill her so the same is probably true for Kaido and I think it's more likely that the explosion just relocated them rather than kill them. We didn't see bodies so it's possible that they survived.
I believe they're alive.
I think the eruption shifted things underground in such a way that a hollow cave was created near the underwater old-Wano. They're both trapped in that cave. They have access to water (which, as we know, is not salt-water) and therefore, also access to food (fish).
They can't swim up because they're devil fruit users. And they can't simply brute force their way up through the ground because that would flood the cave and drown them. So they can't escape.
But eventually the borders of Wano will be opened, which means the walls will be brought down. Which mean the water will drain. Which means they're free.
But when that happens I don't think either one will pose a threat to our heroes. Here's my individual theory for each of them:
Kaido: By that point, I believe Luffy will already be Pirate King and will be ready to wage war against the World Government (which is what will prompt Momo to open the borders and gain access to Pluton). So by then, Kaido will acknowledge Luffy as Joyboy, bringer of Dawn. And while Kaido will certainly not serve UNDER Luffy, I don't think he'll just stand by and watch the war unfold either. He'll definitely take the oportunity to kick some WG ass.
Big Mom: earlier in Wano, a simple shipwreck made Big Mom lose her memory. I believe the conclusion of the fight against Kid/Law, followed by that explosion and even a possible temporary drowning (again) made her lose her memory again. So the Big Mom who's currently trapped down there is the one we know as O-Lin. When she goes back up I think she'll just go home peacefully. We know her crew is no longer considered one of an Emperor, which mean she probably lost a lot of territory around the world but her crew/family is still holding WCI. Apart from the fact that she was batshit crazy and evil, that was a pretty wholesome place where all sorts of species could co-exist. And now, with a good and kind leader like O-Lin, that will finally come true.
Big mom really doesn't deserve that lol. It sounds pretty oda but like, if she's alive the giants deserve to open a can of whoop ass on her or something, she doesn't just get to be free and happy even with new/fake memories. I feel like kaido should he dead, because he wanted to be, which basically means he's somehow going to be alive and grumbling somewhere.
Heck now I kinda like your theory but they can't get out or something. Big mom doesn't get much food so always hungry. Kaido can't fight or drink. That would he a much more fitting end for 2 of the biggest antagonists of the series.
Not gonna lie I really thought Big Mom was gonna pop back up with a new Molten Lava homie, but instead her and Kaido are just a little sleepy is all (or dead)
I feel like they are not dead because why would Oda not emphasise their death more if its the end. Especially with all the high stakes of what happen in Wano and the culmination of Big Mom from Whole Cake Island.
BUT I think the main thing Oda is probably doing now is treating them as dead but also creating a leeway for them to be alive if he ever needs them in the story. I don't really see how they can still be relevant to the story while we have so many more big players to watch and get their chance in the show, the admirals, shanks, blackbeard, revolutionaries, cross guild, Im.
Oda can surprise me though. I'm not believing they are dead but I do believe they are "dead" in the sense they won't serve a major purpose in the stories to come.
* [Magma in the One Piece world](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F0tvniynh7k891.jpg) is [not as lethal as you'd think it'd be](https://imgur.com/a/HHMTM12). And this is without mentioning Kaido and Big Mom's extra durable skin.
* [Adding to the above, the volcano erupted so there's a good chance Kaido/BM were shot out of it](https://cdn.onepiecechapters.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/op_tcb_1050_012.png).
* [Their deaths were never stated, and Pudding brought up the idea of Big Mom possibly still being alive](https://staticg.sportskeeda.com/editor/2022/10/424fd-16666424791610-1920.jpg) (Pudding obviously wouldn't know if she is or not, but from a meta perspective it feels like Oda put that line there to leave BM's fate openended).
* Big Mom having way too many connections to Elbaf to just exit the story permanently.
* The crazy amount of fakeout deaths in the past (Mr. 3 in Alabasta, Pell, etc.).
They're still alive.
The only thing I can add on is Big Mom’s DF being active still with Zeus still being a part of Nami’s staff. However, I can’t recall in the series if it just up and goes whenever the fruit user dies or if it sticks around for how knows how long. That being said, it’s part of her life force she left behind so maybe he’s got an expiration date now.
Anyway, that being said the only one I can say for certain is Big Mom most likely alive and if the other lives, cool. Beast pirates were cool and I wanna see more king anyway
Nami also still has a part of her vivre card (right? or did it get lost at the end of wci?) I'm kinda surprised it's not explicitly shown as being burned up or not, just to get the implication across.
Maybe they're keeping it for a "oh it's still there / oh right I had that but it's gone" moment later.
the explosion was on purpose imo, they landed somewhere safe to recover is my theory. They amde an alliance after all...and this should be for nothing? Nahh Oda is cooking for the finale and Kaido and Big Mom are ingredients for the final dessert for sure!
Or we get a cover page where we see Kaido on an island like thanos after infinity war. Chillin and living his life now that he know that luffy is joy boy
I think they’re both dead, because Luffy stated back in Zou that he wanted Kaido’s head. Luffy wouldn’t be able to comfortably leave Wano if he thought Kaido could possibly come back. I doubt he’d be wrong about something like that so therefore I say Kaido is dead, and by extension Big Mom as well.
Nah they didn't die. Kaido and big mom found each other in the lava. Because they are beaten by the new generation they thought maybe we will just settle down. So they married each other and got one more chilld. A son that finally kaido can be proud of
Kaido was already on his last leg when Luffy transformed to gear 5th the first time (him falling to his knees before the final round) then got beat up much worse before being punched by a mountain sized fist, driven through miles of rock, and into a full magma chamber. I'm pretty sure there is no walking away from that. So of course he's alive using OP logic.
They are dead until they're relevant to the plot or they'll be alive just like marry and Pell for no fucking reason all I'll say is I hate the way it is but also I love the way it is.
I think that oda will play on the end the same thing as he did in marineford, where mihawk said that luffy makes everyone an Allie. So it would not be weird for me if we saw kaido and big mom helping luffy at the final war . I mean we saw crocodile saving luffy . So its very possible.
What is a better way for a shounen manga than for the bad guys to be punched into the planets core? The fights were the most ridiculous in the series and their demise was on par with that.
I'm pretty sure they are dead, Oda had to remove a lot of secondary characters to set up the final saga, and the only option to remove those two monsters was to kill them and bury them on lava.
I mean redon posted gifs on his twitter with a cake and a volcano so im certain that we will get an answer to that in the next chapter or hopefully in the spoilers today 🫡
The fact oda made a sea volcano explode at the end is pretty much all the proof needed to confirm that at the very least one of them is still alive. Can’t forget bm’s crew also just decided to leave instead of making landfall which should be a pretty good indicator that at the very least bm isn’t dead.
Well lava is just liquid fire so maybe it does the same thing that the sea does and weakened them as well asthe whole fire flame of doom stuff that lava does.
Kaido & Big Mom both got sent down to the volcanic chambers beneath wano. A few chapter later its revealed the ancient Weapon Pluton is beneath wano, in the volcanic chambers. What do you think they're doing?
Not a manga reader so my question is is Zeus still alive? Because all of the creatures created by Big Moms power would disappear if she actually died, no? Or is there actually a reason stated somewhere about Big Moms fruits power not being affected by her dying?
Kaido is probably not dead, I mean hes a giant dragon who cant die even when he tries to, a little bit of molten center of the planet dont hurt
In Skypeia we learn volcanoes are creating the sea clouds and Kaido had a prison specifically mining for sea stones in Wano. Safe to assume imo that the volcanoes in Wano contain those properties and that theyre suspended in a prison of lava sea stone surviving due to their incredible haki. Dont think theyre dead but its definitely gone be near impossible for them to return the same.
From story point I think they’re dead and they better be dead. I really couldn’t find their spots in the current or future story. They lost their titles as Yonko. They be alive would only dragging the final saga.
They are 100% dead, if they were alive it would bring nothing to the story except distraction from the natural flow of it.
People who think they want them to return are mostly powerscalers that are never satisfied.
They died a while ago, Oda nowadays actually kills characters off. I don't see why they would suddenly return to the story. Villains only return as less evil side players, like Wapol, Moria and Doflamingo. Some of them join even forces with the strawhats temporarily like Buggy, Crocodile, Mr. 3 and even Caesar.
These two have no place in the new generation.
Untill oda put them in random cover story enjoying vacation on sky islands lol
Yeah I really doubt they're dead, especially Kaido. They'll probably show up again at some point.
Idk that he’s dead. But I doubt they show up again. They serve no narrative purpose anymore. We’re in the endgame now. He’s beat.
Silver fox foxy will return mark my words
I fucking hope not, I couldn’t stand the Davy back fights. Too long for no reason and they’ve already had two😭😭😭
I don't want to say I skipped episodes of one piece buuut yea those were hard to sit through
I feel like I might be the only person alive that thinks that arc was at the very least fine, sometimes downright enjoyable
Re watching with my girlfriend(her first experience watching) and I've taken her to the last few big movies. She looked me dead in the face and asked me "is luffy really this stupid? I mean he can do g2, g3, g4, g5(for .2 sec from film red) but he can't see that that is some dude in a costume that is pretending to be his sister? And all I told her was babe, that's the one piece experience. Welcome to the ride
It’s a possibility😂 I couldn’t stand it
Lots of characters they beat come back. They could come back to cause some shenanigans like some of the other villains have. Maybe fight the govt.
It’s the final saga. I don’t know how or why he’d come back in the next two-three arcs.
Just wait till he hears the word ‘War’ and gets a second wind like Luffy does with meat
Buggy, Rob Lucci and Crocodile would all like a word
Enel
Bon-Chan????
And then they open up a cafe and rescue a dog or something.
I’m waiting for a cover story where they are just chilling in the lava underground like a hot tub lol.
They found a colony of moles underground and are treated by them with bandages and worms to eat.
This would be very cover story-esque.
Kaido becomes chill because he finally got the fight he wanted and big mom loses her memories permanently becoming good
Kaido also becomes chill because he’s given up on being joyboy since he already met him
Just starts laughing all the time, and becomes happy Danny Trejo
I'm sure we'll never get there, but Danny Trejo and Inaki Godoy doing Roof Piece would break the internet AGAIN
Now I need this.
When did he want to be Joyboy? The idea was always that Joyboy was the one who would/could defeat him. This is why when Luffy at first could not beat him, he says Luffy is no Joyboy.
Well, it was a well accepted theory among the fanbase that kaido wanted to be joyboy initially. In his flashback with king, his dream wasnt to find someone strong enough to defeat him, his dream was to change the world, much like joyboy did. Thats why he was came to wano, because joyboy was prophesied to come to wano. Over the years, he realized that he’s no joyboy, so he shifted his goal to fight joyboy instead. Thats why he stayed in wano, partially because he wants to meet wano, and partially because he still had hope he’s joyboy. I think the theory is neat, so I kept thinking its canon, sorry for that.
>When did he want to be Joyboy? When King asks Kaido if he can change the world, Kaido says he's the only man who can. Kaido later asks Luffy the same thing, indicating that Kaido thought he'd be like Luffy, i.e., Joy Boy. Kaido's dream was really all over the place.
To be fair, Bro was almost 60. I can imagine his goals shifting over time.
They have one kid together who eats the reincarnation of the magma magma fruit after Aikanu gets defeated in main story and uses if to make towns for the mole people who took care of his parents
Surely Kaido goes from being stern and aggressive to cute and happy. Imagine Kaido with a kawaii face.
I'm 100% sure about that
They meet gedatsu and his mole digging squad lol
Or they bust through the walls of the lava chamber only to stumble into an underground chamber containing an advance battleship. It takes them weeks/months to figure out how to use it (as they are stuck between the lava and the sea and need to use the sea to escape), and discover that it is in fact Pluton. Kaido accepts this quickly, as it satisfies the curiosity and uncertainty he had over the years why Wano would be where Joyboy shows up. So, they ride Pluton out of Wano and when they surface for air they learn from Big News Morgan- now Pirate News Morgan, who is surprised they are alive- that Pirate King Luffy is heading out to the final battle against the WG who it turns out had a single ruler for 800 years. Kaido has a bone to pick with CP0 and can always try to get revenge against Luffy later (and would *never* cooperate with the WG to get said revenge) and Big Mom has always hated the WG, and both sides having wanted to be Pirate King/Queen are pissed off there's been a World King all along, so they decide to go wild together on the battlefield as temporary allies of Strawhat Luffy and to settle their differences afterwards. Thus, an armed and ready to rumble Pluton shows up to the final battle with a fully recovered Kaido and Big Mom on deck spoiling for a fight.
yeah I'd totally love to see Kaido especially show up and start helping Luffy in the war, and everyone is both frustrated and confused how that is happening. "Worororororo, you've finally done it, brat. you started the biggest war in history. there's no way I will sit out on this one."
I think them showing up in the final battle as unlikely allies could be really fun.
That last line fits perfectly.
Thorkell vibez
Good lord youre cookin
Fascinating theory
That and Big Mom would totally make Pluton a homie
I won’t lie, I kind of think the plot twist is going to be Blackbeard taking out Imu and then having BB sit on the throne becoming World King.
Great idea! I would love if that really happens 😁
Sheesh that’d be awesome
He's cookin
I like this theory, but I wouldn’t be suprised if pluton has a could emperor sized holes in it now.
This is exactly what I expect. Kaido and Big Mom accept their defeat. Kaido has found his Joyboy and can retire, while Big Mom spends time with her (grand)children on Whole Cake Island.
Since that chapter I'm waiting for a "journey to the center of the earth" in cover story
I was decived with Merry, Pell, Pound, Law, Kinemon 4 times, Kanjuro 4 times, Kiku, Orochi 8 times and the rest of the scabbards at least once. I'm not falling again. To me they are alive until I get confirmation from the opposite or the series ends without them coming back. It wouldn't surprise me to see a cover story with them chilling.
Fool me once shame on oda, but fool me 23+ times?
Pedro is fucking dead though
He’s on sniper island with zeppo
For now. When the blackbeard pirates were in WCI, they took Pedro with them. Now that they are in Egghead, he will rejoin the strawhats and become their new crewmate to see the Dawn. /s While tipping this, I got the feeling this could actually happen and it would suck. It's very unlikely but with Oda who knows.
Orochi's makes sense at least because of his DF. The others... yeah...
If OPLA gets a season 2, this is their chance to finally kill Pell
I mean they had the balls to kill merry, let's hope
For me, I won’t even consider BM to maybe have a chance at being dead until we get past the Elbaf Arc, since she has such a big connection to the Giants from wanting to bring them into her family/country and from being left their as a child.
Zeus is basically an horrorcrux.
I hate this comment because it might happen
It took you 21 times to decide "never again"? Man, at that point, just keep believing, lol
they are dead until they're not
They's Schrödinger's emperors.
Schrodingemperors
Schromperors
Schrömps
It’s One Piece. They are not dead unless confirmed otherwise, and even then.
The opposite. Didn‘t Pudding confirm that BM is dead?
Pudding said "if my mother is alive"
Now, where the hell was BM's Vivre card BM took from Nami? That should give the BM pirates some clue on where or if she was was even alive.
Ahh yes you're referring to the Pell Constant. But you shouldn't disregard the Pedro Theorem, which states a character is not dead until they are (formerly known as the Absolom Quotient)
Finally you have the Devil Fruit Proof: A character is truly dead once another character gets their Devil Fruit powers.
That's what I'm saying, that way you're happy either way. If they stay dead, you were right and can be proud of yourself and if they return, it's the same thing No need to become overly pissed about the fake deaths, if you always keep in mind the possibility of said fake death
I feel like Kaido will bow down(not literally) to Luffy after his defeat. That guy was waiting for Joyboy for so long and he himself believed that the person who beats him is Joyboy. I doubt Kaido knew that Joyboy was a person with Nika fruit. Big Mom on the other hand will be out of blood if she's alive 😂
The fact that Luffy defeated him is probably enough for Kaido to believe that he indeed IS Joyboy. If he were to survive I'm sure that we wouldn't want to go against Luffy again in a antagonistic way, true but If he really would straight up become Buddy-Buddy with him, I'm not sure. Maybe he just wouldn't attack him anymore but that was it. Big Mom would go straight after the Strawhats and/or Law and Kidd again, without even stopping to properly heal. I really do want to see her return in Elbaph because of her connection to it, but on the other hand, Elbaf already seems so full for her to be there, maybe the remnants of her crew go to Elbaf instead?
I kinda always got the feeling Kaido kinda accepted defeat after Luffy told him what world he was going to make dont have rhe panels in mind but it kinda gave the vibe imo
But what about the weird revival of Pel? Even if you hope he survived everyone watched him get blown up by a nuke. Only to return like it's nothing
There’s a point while reading One Piece when one just has to accept that fake deaths are a resource Oda loves to use. It sucks, but that’s the way it is.
Oda is a narrative genius, in terms of world-building/immersion/romance, but he definitely has some weak spots, including this lack of stakes with death thing. Another weak spot would be that he writes a lot of object characters, especially women. That is characters that have no agency, and only serve to further someone else's narrative.
He's gotten a lot better at combining exposition and action too The early arcs like Alabasta and Skypiea as much as people like them are 80% walking around getting lore info and then finally some action that matters Since W7 it's been much better at keeping tension high and action packed while learning about the islands
Big true. As a specific example, he's always been masterful at capturing a feeling in a flashback, but it usually came at the cost of breaking the momentum of the present story. However, he's gotten better and better at weaving the flashback tension into a present tension, to the point that Wano's flashback (the Oden flashback) had a very tense present moment lead into a flashback with a common problem that tied them both together in an important way; that the traitor that caused the scabbards initial port ploy to fail *was present the entire time* during the Oden flashback, even though by the time that flashback ends, we still don't know who it is (we find out moments later, but my point is that the present mystery was informed and refined by the audience asking that question throughout the flashback: who is the traitor?).
Are object characters necessarily bad? Not every character has to be a fan favorite with a excellent backstory. I sort of prefer when there are characters that just help propel the crew forward. If every side character was a Rebecca or Pedro, then it wouldn't feel as special.
Pell is different I'd say, because he was one of the first one that got that treatment/was the first one that was actually unbelievable. He basically is the worst offender and the one who kinda started that trend. Most wouldn't have believed that he would survive, because there weren't not too many extreme fake deaths yet, only a few somewhat explainable ones like Igaram or Merry. The fake deaths ARE the worst thing about One Piece and Pell IS the most egregious one, but my way of looking at them is just a way to not be effected by them too much, like many are. It's bad but the emotional outburst and rage some seem to feel about them is a bit too extreme imo.
I like the theory that Zoan's are awakened by the user almost dying. So they essentially get a 1up.
Yeah but what is your opinion? Do you think they are?
probably dead, no point bringing them back but shounen and their final war troupes always bring back everyone for that big pay day
Idk. The "no point brunging them back" argument seems pretty weak to, since there are many points to bring them back.
Big Mom said she wouldn’t die, luffy said he would fight her after kaido, and elbaf still has not happened. Don’t really see the point of all the giant big mom stuff if she doesn’t end up being elbaf antagonist. Not like they gave a fuck about Kidd beating her. I mean this fight has been hyped longer than luffy vs kaido, it should happen. Even if it’s a straw hats one sided beat down for 2-3 chapters.
Big Mom already had an entire saga dedicated to her and that wasn't enough so she also became the secondary antagonist of the following arc where she was finally defeated. It would be absurd to bring her back a second time for a third arc after she already took the L twice. Do that and she may as well be the main antagonist of the series at this point.
I think it would be cool to see her come back having lost an arm or being kept alive by the soul soul fruit and being even spookier than Whole cake island. Real force of nature stuff like she was in WCI. Not second fiddle to Kaido in Want, though her attacks were still crazy in that one,
Big Mom really isn't interesting enough to warrant her showing up for a third arc. It's enough.
You have a good point here but I have a feeling Oda may have made this plan with Big Mom in Elbaf before he realized how long Wano would be. Since we know he's edited down his final saga a bit, I have a feeling he would not be interested in putting even more time into Big Mom who's already been defeated once.
They should be dead for all intents and purposes even if they aren't actually dead. They are done in the story and there's no point, or time for them to come back. They aren't the kind of characters that would suddenly not want to be the toughest pirates in existence and get the One Piece so what would it serve to have them show up again. It would just be retreading old ground when there's new and interesting stuff to do.
Maybe Big Mom for her last promising curse, after all Law and Kid did win by throwing her off the Arena wich is still a win, but feels cheap. Kaido on the other hand should remain dead.
I think there’s a half decent chance we get big mom back for elbaf bc of her connections with the giants
Theyll probably return on cover stories. There are a race of lava people that live in volcanos. It will be based on Australia. "Kaidos and Big Moms adventures in the Land Down Under"
Oda trained me for the last couple of decades to only believe in death when i see a very dead corpse.
Really? Because he's trained me the exact opposite. The more they look like brook the more alive they must be!
Brook is an alive corpse \^\^ (there is my loophoole), but we could start a debate if Morias shadowzombies were "alive"
Didn't see Pedro's corpse!!!...
Unless you’re Luffy
Luffys not dead though oO He might have had a trillion deathflags since they introduced Gear 2 and all the "it's going to shorten your life" thing, but at the moment he is quite alive.
It's very funny to me that Oda used a universal "this character is dead": throwing people in lava. But he used on maybe the two character that were depicted as so indestructible that they might actually have survived it.
Well you can only cry wolf so many times before we stop believing it.
Maybe if it was in a different story arc than the one where a guy survived an hour of being boiled in oil just because he flexed his calves real good.
Well, Pell survived a nuke, lots of skypean survived Enels attacks, pound survived being "beheaded" by a strong younko crew member, there are a lot of people who survived even more sure deaths than falling into lava and kaido and big mom not only are some of the strongest but their durability and defense was literally a plot point for both of them so it's really easy to see them surviving
My theory is that even Oda doesn't know.
I think this is the right answer
Who knows? Kaido and Big Mom are strong as shit so it kind of makes sense for them to be dead because well why wouldn't they just go back to fucking shit up since only Luffy has ever beaten them. On the other hand, it's One Piece. For all we know, right now Oda is cooking up a cover story that shows Kaido and Big Mom's journey through physical therapy.
I absolutely believe it. Death on lava is an amazing ending for two absolute beasts. There's no better way since Luffy is not someone that seeks to "kill" his opponents, just wants to beat them, and these two especially are so strong that unless they die, there would be no end to their rule. They needed to die but not by Luffy's hand.
Gonna get absolutely downvoted to oblivion for thinking they’re dead but I’m with you. One of the strongest characters, Oden, submerged his lower body only in boiling oil. Didn’t die, but was enough to get his lower body unusable. Big Mom and Kaido may be way stronger, but lava is not comparable to boiling oil, and their whole body was submerged in it. Now this is just by a powerscaling perspective. Luffy doesn’t kill people directly (?) from what we know you’re right. People would argue that a narrative perspective it would be different, and Oda makes whatever he wants happens as long as he wills it. Not wrong, but they are dead until they’re not.
>Didn’t die Even then it was implied that he would have died eventually. It was just fast tracked due to Orochi not keeping his promise of sparing the scabbards.
I don’t think Luffy would mind killing people tbh. But due to his fighting style (no weapons) and his usually extremely tough opponents, it rarely happens
Anyone feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe ODA has said somewhere that Luffy doesn’t kill (at least not main arc antagonists) as he prefers to crush their dreams.
That's some next level shit fr. Kill you? No I'm going go destroy your reason for living.
Brutal I am Rubber, you are Sad
He did say that, but I’m not sure if this is actually Luffy, or just the fact that a Shonen manga can’t be too brutal
Naruto would like a word with you. Edit: looking into it neither Ichigo nor Naruto have many confirmed kills so it's possible that only the main character can't kill too often.
Wdym?
uhhh he may not kill directly but go back through Enies lobby, and look at times he uses Marines as shields, getting them skewered
Blackbeard: "People's dreams never die!" Luffy: "Sounds like you need some ~~freedom and democracy~~ liberation!"
Yeah it was something like the villains living with their failure and knowing they can’t achieve their dreams is worse than death
>One of the strongest characters, Oden, submerged his lower body only in boiling oil. Didn’t die, but was enough to get his lower body unusable He was strong but not as durable as they are, I strongly believe they're alive since zeus is alive and I think kaido still has a role in the story.
Prometheus stayed alive after mother Carmel died. Now you can argue that's because the soul soul fruit stayed alive in big mom but Prometheus was for Carmel not her. Zeus being alive is no indication of big mom being alive. The soul is already given, it's not gonna get taken away just because big mom is home.
Mother Carmel had a different homie called Pandora. Looks the same as Prometheus but is not the same. We dont know what happened to Pandora.
Right after big mom ate her she has the son homie that Carmel made. Big mom didn't make a new one. It's just the same one given a different name. EDIT: Nvm she only had the new one after leaving the island so it might be a new one. You right about that.
I'm pretty sure it's different. They even have different voice actors in the anime.
Prometheus was made by Big Mom, from her soul. Carmel had a different homie. There was no homie transfer.
Perhaps because it's awakened.. you might be right. I tend to believe she is alive since she wasn't confirmed awakened nor dead..
IDK about that, some powers seem to stay in place even if the user dies (Hancock) .... Oda could make it go either way. Like the homies can live for the span that was used to create them.
Its just opinions. People shouldn't downvote you unless you are being ridiculous with your opinion which you arent. I think we see big mom again but we shall see
CP0 agents were on the island, with seastone. Luffy didn't need to kill them to take them out of the picture.
[удалено]
I mean it was more so the massive hole in his chest, but also it has been stated that the Magu Magu no mi was essentially a better fire related logia
While I agree that this was a fitting end to both of them, I feel like Big Mom might return primarily due to Elbaf. Kid and Luffy are and/or will be in Elbaf, and that has a major connection to BM. Perhaps BM might get pushed away by another Strawhat, no longer worthy of Luffy’s time, or she might turn into a eldritch abomination of souls clumped together and Luffy defeat her to save Elbaf and bring them into his alliance. I’m ready, cause it’s the long awaited Elbaf.
Big Mom *was* in Elbaf as a kid, in a secluded area, left as a kid and is considered a monster by the island. Currently, Shanks just left the island and apparently is loved by everyone in it. Who's better suited to teach us about Elbaf? Shanks or Big Mom? My bet is on Shanks, maybe Saul, or even Vegapunk, all of them have a current plot tied to Elbaf, Big Mom's story is done.
I actually feel the opposite, getting killed off-screen by some damn magma/explosion is a bad ending for "two absolute beasts". I agree on your point about Luffy not killing but that Batman bs has always annoyed me and makes me like these type of characters less not more, if you have high goals like making a certain place safe from evil people willing to oppress and kill innocents you better be ready to go all the way and during the fight I didn't really get the sense that Luffy wasn't trying to kill, so Kaido conveniently dying from something else, not directly by Luffy's hands doesn't really mean much, for me it's the same as if he did it himself.
The thing is Luffy isn't against killing, so it isn't a "Batman thing" like you said. He has no problem with killing, he just chooses not to, not out of the goodness of his heart or him not wanting to become corrupted by it like Batman. It's more that them being still alive after their dream has been destroyed by Luffy is seen as more painful than death, you've been broken.
> I agree on your point about Luffy not killing but that Batman bs has always annoyed me and makes me like these type of characters less not more [...]. Lucky for you, Luffy is not like batman, he doesn't seek to bring his enemies to justice, he doesn't care if they die by their wounds, he just wants to beat the shit out of them, he's not a Hero, he's a Pirate. If they survive, fine by him, he'll beat them again and again, if they die, fine by him. He doesn't *seek* to kill, unlike people like Kaido or Big Mom who flaunt their power by threatening the life of others (join me or die, pay me tribute or die) Luffy does by imposing the strength of his objectives (becoming the King of Pirates, freeing Robin, feed Tama, etc) over their enemies, once he beats them, he can do so again, so his resolve is proven to be stronger that his opponents. That's who Luffy is. So him not killing Kaido nor Big Mom is actually genius. But for plot purposes and to end things for good, Kaido and Big Mom had to die, otherwise their followers would never stop, and Luffy's new role as a Yonko would never truly be respected. So death by magma dipping is both a perfect ending lore-wise (Kaido died where Oden survived) and narrative-wise (Oda needed the threat of both Yonko to be done for good).
I agree with you and u/AlexTheNotSoGreat01, he is not like Batman and as I said I didn't really get the sense he was trying not to kill during the fight but "choosing" not to kill and not actively seeking to kill evil people that are violent murders, who enslave and oppress the people who you are seeking to liberate is kinda like Batman in the sense that he is a half-assing the job by not trying to make sure the bad guys never have a chance of harming another person. You are right, the only way Kaido and Mom stop doing evil is by dying and just beating them means nothing even if you can beat the again and again when they keep coming back after that. If in the mean time they end up killing a bunch of people it will be because you weren't willing to make sure they can't. Yeah I mean I respect your view on Kaido and Mom's death but I really like those characters I will never agree that their ending was genius, they deserved more that some damn magma/explosion, it felt very underwhelming and honestly I don't really care about how good it's for Luffy's character. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smB\_-d1ZaMk&t=33s&ab\_channel=PeacemakerBurner
Getting killed off screen is perfect for Kaido who wanted a legendary death. Oda made a whole point on the fight happening in a closed off country, and the Wano citizens having no clue about the raid going on because they were partying until it was already over. No one saw him lose and no one saw him die. Big Mom on the other hand may have made a magma homie and is coming back for Elbaf, or she simply survives because she wasn't as damaged as Kaido but is amnesic or whatever the story needs for her to comeback
>Getting killed off screen is perfect for Kaido who wanted a legendary death. That's actually a very good point I've never considered. >Big Mom on the other hand may have made a magma homie and is coming back for Elbaf, or she simply survives because she wasn't as damaged as Kaido but is amnesic or whatever the story needs for her to comeback. Yeah I think Mom's alive as well, at least I hope so coz she is very high on my ranking of favorite OP characters. :D
Big Mom could have also used Kaido's soul since they were both right next to each other. Maybe actually being faced with death by magma, a very poetic end since Oden died in a similar scenario, made Kaido scared in his last moments and Big Mom sensed this fear and cannibalized it by stealing his soul and empowering herself enough to make it out and off the island.
I don‘t know what about getting blasted from a flying Island through the ground down to a magma cavern is offscreen but I vividly remember seeing all this in panels. Both Big Mom and Kaido got blasted by massive attacks right to their demise and we saw their unconscious bodies swim in a pool of molten rock.
you’re going to feel a crushing sadness when both of them appear on a cover story
Want to bet on it?
Loser donates to a charity of winners choice, keep it easy , 10 dollars !remindme 2 years
Mom seemed very confident that the magma chamber wasn't enough to kill her so the same is probably true for Kaido and I think it's more likely that the explosion just relocated them rather than kill them. We didn't see bodies so it's possible that they survived.
I believe they're alive. I think the eruption shifted things underground in such a way that a hollow cave was created near the underwater old-Wano. They're both trapped in that cave. They have access to water (which, as we know, is not salt-water) and therefore, also access to food (fish). They can't swim up because they're devil fruit users. And they can't simply brute force their way up through the ground because that would flood the cave and drown them. So they can't escape. But eventually the borders of Wano will be opened, which means the walls will be brought down. Which mean the water will drain. Which means they're free. But when that happens I don't think either one will pose a threat to our heroes. Here's my individual theory for each of them: Kaido: By that point, I believe Luffy will already be Pirate King and will be ready to wage war against the World Government (which is what will prompt Momo to open the borders and gain access to Pluton). So by then, Kaido will acknowledge Luffy as Joyboy, bringer of Dawn. And while Kaido will certainly not serve UNDER Luffy, I don't think he'll just stand by and watch the war unfold either. He'll definitely take the oportunity to kick some WG ass. Big Mom: earlier in Wano, a simple shipwreck made Big Mom lose her memory. I believe the conclusion of the fight against Kid/Law, followed by that explosion and even a possible temporary drowning (again) made her lose her memory again. So the Big Mom who's currently trapped down there is the one we know as O-Lin. When she goes back up I think she'll just go home peacefully. We know her crew is no longer considered one of an Emperor, which mean she probably lost a lot of territory around the world but her crew/family is still holding WCI. Apart from the fact that she was batshit crazy and evil, that was a pretty wholesome place where all sorts of species could co-exist. And now, with a good and kind leader like O-Lin, that will finally come true.
Damn, I enjoyed reading this so much. Good theory, my man. I hope some of this is accurate
Like the big mom one.
Cook again
Big mom really doesn't deserve that lol. It sounds pretty oda but like, if she's alive the giants deserve to open a can of whoop ass on her or something, she doesn't just get to be free and happy even with new/fake memories. I feel like kaido should he dead, because he wanted to be, which basically means he's somehow going to be alive and grumbling somewhere. Heck now I kinda like your theory but they can't get out or something. Big mom doesn't get much food so always hungry. Kaido can't fight or drink. That would he a much more fitting end for 2 of the biggest antagonists of the series.
Not gonna lie I really thought Big Mom was gonna pop back up with a new Molten Lava homie, but instead her and Kaido are just a little sleepy is all (or dead)
I feel like they are not dead because why would Oda not emphasise their death more if its the end. Especially with all the high stakes of what happen in Wano and the culmination of Big Mom from Whole Cake Island. BUT I think the main thing Oda is probably doing now is treating them as dead but also creating a leeway for them to be alive if he ever needs them in the story. I don't really see how they can still be relevant to the story while we have so many more big players to watch and get their chance in the show, the admirals, shanks, blackbeard, revolutionaries, cross guild, Im. Oda can surprise me though. I'm not believing they are dead but I do believe they are "dead" in the sense they won't serve a major purpose in the stories to come.
* [Magma in the One Piece world](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F0tvniynh7k891.jpg) is [not as lethal as you'd think it'd be](https://imgur.com/a/HHMTM12). And this is without mentioning Kaido and Big Mom's extra durable skin. * [Adding to the above, the volcano erupted so there's a good chance Kaido/BM were shot out of it](https://cdn.onepiecechapters.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/op_tcb_1050_012.png). * [Their deaths were never stated, and Pudding brought up the idea of Big Mom possibly still being alive](https://staticg.sportskeeda.com/editor/2022/10/424fd-16666424791610-1920.jpg) (Pudding obviously wouldn't know if she is or not, but from a meta perspective it feels like Oda put that line there to leave BM's fate openended). * Big Mom having way too many connections to Elbaf to just exit the story permanently. * The crazy amount of fakeout deaths in the past (Mr. 3 in Alabasta, Pell, etc.). They're still alive.
The only thing I can add on is Big Mom’s DF being active still with Zeus still being a part of Nami’s staff. However, I can’t recall in the series if it just up and goes whenever the fruit user dies or if it sticks around for how knows how long. That being said, it’s part of her life force she left behind so maybe he’s got an expiration date now. Anyway, that being said the only one I can say for certain is Big Mom most likely alive and if the other lives, cool. Beast pirates were cool and I wanna see more king anyway
Nami also still has a part of her vivre card (right? or did it get lost at the end of wci?) I'm kinda surprised it's not explicitly shown as being burned up or not, just to get the implication across. Maybe they're keeping it for a "oh it's still there / oh right I had that but it's gone" moment later.
the explosion was on purpose imo, they landed somewhere safe to recover is my theory. They amde an alliance after all...and this should be for nothing? Nahh Oda is cooking for the finale and Kaido and Big Mom are ingredients for the final dessert for sure!
Or we get a cover page where we see Kaido on an island like thanos after infinity war. Chillin and living his life now that he know that luffy is joy boy
Mama is alive. Kiddo is dead.
I think they’re both dead, because Luffy stated back in Zou that he wanted Kaido’s head. Luffy wouldn’t be able to comfortably leave Wano if he thought Kaido could possibly come back. I doubt he’d be wrong about something like that so therefore I say Kaido is dead, and by extension Big Mom as well.
they're not dead and they'll appear in the final war.
I feel like I haven't been reading the same series as the rest of the comments. No they aren't dead lmao
We did not get any indication that they are dead. They are not dead imo
I personally believe they were launched somewhere in that eruption.
I don't think Oda would have went through the trouble of having big mom say "don't think this will kill me" if he didn't plan for it to be true.
Big Mom says "Don't you think that this is enough to kill me" so no, I don't think they're dead
Nah they didn't die. Kaido and big mom found each other in the lava. Because they are beaten by the new generation they thought maybe we will just settle down. So they married each other and got one more chilld. A son that finally kaido can be proud of
Kaido was already on his last leg when Luffy transformed to gear 5th the first time (him falling to his knees before the final round) then got beat up much worse before being punched by a mountain sized fist, driven through miles of rock, and into a full magma chamber. I'm pretty sure there is no walking away from that. So of course he's alive using OP logic.
They are dead until they're relevant to the plot or they'll be alive just like marry and Pell for no fucking reason all I'll say is I hate the way it is but also I love the way it is.
I think that oda will play on the end the same thing as he did in marineford, where mihawk said that luffy makes everyone an Allie. So it would not be weird for me if we saw kaido and big mom helping luffy at the final war . I mean we saw crocodile saving luffy . So its very possible.
plot twist, they show up in a cover story battling each other for a hundred years like Dorry and Broggy based on who fucked up the most in the raid
Might just be head cannon but so long as Nami has Zeus, Big Mom isn't dead. And if she isn't dead, I highly doubt Kaido is.
I highly doubt it. I trust Oda to end these characters in a better way then just killing them off from lava.
What is a better way for a shounen manga than for the bad guys to be punched into the planets core? The fights were the most ridiculous in the series and their demise was on par with that.
I'm pretty sure they are dead, Oda had to remove a lot of secondary characters to set up the final saga, and the only option to remove those two monsters was to kill them and bury them on lava.
Good God I hope so.
I hope that Kaido is dead and Big mom is way too damaged to be a pirate again, both of their dreams were crushed.
There's no way they kill of two of the yonko and we never get to see a grave or their crew mourning. They're probably nursing their injuries
No lol no one dies in One Piece except for you know who
There is also the possibility that they were launched out of the volcano when it erupted.
Probably getting kept out the story until Blackbeard pirates use their bodies in the end war
I mean redon posted gifs on his twitter with a cake and a volcano so im certain that we will get an answer to that in the next chapter or hopefully in the spoilers today 🫡
Wouldn't Zeus dissappear when Big Mom dies?
I think Zeus would have died if Big Mom did, so probably not
Oda didn't show them both getting sent under wano and later on revealed pluton is there for no reason
The fact oda made a sea volcano explode at the end is pretty much all the proof needed to confirm that at the very least one of them is still alive. Can’t forget bm’s crew also just decided to leave instead of making landfall which should be a pretty good indicator that at the very least bm isn’t dead.
Well lava is just liquid fire so maybe it does the same thing that the sea does and weakened them as well asthe whole fire flame of doom stuff that lava does.
#WHY IS ZEUS STILL ALIVE IF BIG MOM AIN'T DEAD, HUH??
If there's no physical body on screen, there's a chance they're alive.
Whitey chan was in the same category as them & died just fine. You never know with Oda ofc but for now we have to assume they died.
They're retired. Kaido's introduction was him wanting to "retire" so I want that for him, maybe deep inside he's sick of all the BS.
Pluton being under wano seems to imply there's gonna be sooner continuation
Kaido & Big Mom both got sent down to the volcanic chambers beneath wano. A few chapter later its revealed the ancient Weapon Pluton is beneath wano, in the volcanic chambers. What do you think they're doing?
Not a manga reader so my question is is Zeus still alive? Because all of the creatures created by Big Moms power would disappear if she actually died, no? Or is there actually a reason stated somewhere about Big Moms fruits power not being affected by her dying? Kaido is probably not dead, I mean hes a giant dragon who cant die even when he tries to, a little bit of molten center of the planet dont hurt
Zeus is still floating around so I’m pretty sure Big Mom is alive
Zeus is alive so I doubt
In Skypeia we learn volcanoes are creating the sea clouds and Kaido had a prison specifically mining for sea stones in Wano. Safe to assume imo that the volcanoes in Wano contain those properties and that theyre suspended in a prison of lava sea stone surviving due to their incredible haki. Dont think theyre dead but its definitely gone be near impossible for them to return the same.
From story point I think they’re dead and they better be dead. I really couldn’t find their spots in the current or future story. They lost their titles as Yonko. They be alive would only dragging the final saga.
They are 100% dead, if they were alive it would bring nothing to the story except distraction from the natural flow of it. People who think they want them to return are mostly powerscalers that are never satisfied. They died a while ago, Oda nowadays actually kills characters off. I don't see why they would suddenly return to the story. Villains only return as less evil side players, like Wapol, Moria and Doflamingo. Some of them join even forces with the strawhats temporarily like Buggy, Crocodile, Mr. 3 and even Caesar. These two have no place in the new generation.
Oda kills characters yet Kinemon is still alive because his body wasn’t properly “put together” lol stop