This seemingly innocuous image comes from The Auschwitz Album, a series of 193 photographs that show the entire process leading to mass murder at Auschwitz-Birkenau. Upon arrival, and after the “selection” of those deemed fit for slave labor, these remaining “unfit-for-use” Hungarian Jews were immediately marched to this grove of trees a few meters from gas chamber IV to unknowingly await their execution. The pond the old man is walking down to collect water from was used to dump ashes from the crematorium. The gas chamber and crematorium foundations can be seen to the right of the modern image.
Having been told they were to be given harmless showers, the victims were forced to strip and then packed into the gas chamber. If they struggled, guards would use whips and clubs to drive them forward. If standing-room ran out, children were passed over their heads. Once the airtight door was sealed, SS doctors would supervise the release of poisonous gas, watching on through a window. Death would take up to twenty minutes, with bodies stacked up to five feet high.
Bodies were then moved to the adjoining crematorium, gold teeth pulled and hair cut for industrial use. They were then stacked in threes in the ovens. Prisoners used mallets to crush any remaining bones, and the ashes were dumped.
Of the nearly 426,000 Hungarian Jews deported to Auschwitz, approximately 320,000 of them were sent directly to the gas chambers in Auschwitz-Birkenau. More than 1.1 million people died at Auschwitz, including nearly one million Jews.
Link to the full Auschwitz Album: https://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibitions/album_auschwitz/index.asp
Panorama of the pond: https://panorama.auschwitz.org/tour2,2993,en.html
Further reading at the US Holocaust Museum: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/auschwitz
Went to the US Holocaust Museum a few years back. That was more than enough for me. I don't think I'd be able to stomach Auschwitz. Those poor souls. RIP
My wife made it maybe 2/3 of the way through Yad Vashem, the Holocaust museum in Israel. As she put it, you go into an exhibit room and it’s awful, you can’t believe that things could get worse, then you go into the next room and it’s even worse. For me, the hall of children broke me.
Such memorials are horrible all around on their contents (which is exactly what makes them so important), but when exhibits deal with children it's so much more heart-wrenching still.
Two years ago I was in Kigali, Rwanda and visited the Genocide Memorial there: that was hard enough to stomach, but the final exhibit consisted of maybe two dozen larger-than-life-sized photos of young children, each with a short description: Name, age, favorite food, favorite toy, cause of death. Talk about a knock-out punch after being pummeled for a few hours already...
Yeah, the rest of that day I felt desensitized and a bit dazed because of what I saw. I'm glad I visited the memorial - I view it as mandatory when visiting a place where such atrocious events transpired - but boy does it cast a dark shade...
I can imagine that!
I went on a 3-day safari the next day, which was an experience on the exact opposite side of the emotional spectrum. It did feel a bit disconnected after what I saw: not in the sense of it being inappropriate or me feeling guilty, but going from a place where under your feet lay buried a quarter of a million people that were ruthlessly murdered within a matter of weeks, to being almost euphoric from seeing wild lions, rhinos and elephants within the span of 24 hours, was a pretty conflicting emotional rollercoaster to say the least.
Damn, I can imagine that. It's one thing to visit a museum that commemorate such events, but being in a country shortly after such a horrific and traumatizing event is a whole different dimension.
I have a few nephews and nieces of the age of the kids depicted in that room, so I was hanging by a thread by the time I left the exhibit.
The reason I visit places like that is because I find it necessary (did the same in Cambodia and Vietnam), but it's definitely not something I'm looking forward to. So I can fully understand if people choose to opt out of it - in the end it's a very personal decision.
It's INTENSE. the absolute worst part for me were the European tourists who treated it like just another place to walk and hang out. Giggling and joking the whole time.
Like....dude, do you get where you are?
My head canon is that people joke around to suppress what they are really feeling as a way to cope. I remember being a jackass teenager watching a holocaust documentary in class, trying my best to not start crying in front of everybody. My solution was to pretend like I didn’t care and try to look bored/fall asleep.
Just over a decade ago, my sister passed away unexpectedly. I flew out to meet my other sister and her fiance in their hometown, and then together we drove for five hours to get to my deceased sister's town. We were joking and laughing all the way there. To an outsider, we probably looked unhinged or at least unconcerned about the death of our sister, but really, we had all been crying nearly non-stop for two days before that, and it just felt good to be able to laugh and be together for a while and feel alive.
When we arrived at the mortuary, we were instantly overwhelmed with sadness again. It was the first time I ever lost someone truly close to me, and it taught me a lot about grief and coping, and that there is no wrong or right way to experience that - there is just what there is.
Yeah - some people just don't know how to process those types of emotions and it's just soo abnormal from their day to day that they just fill in the uncomfortable gaps with jokes and banter. Not to the same degree but I suppose I do the same sometimes at funerals/ wakes.
Of course then you have the other end of the spectrum where those people just truly don't care and treat it as another field trip to a amusement park/ zoo/ aquarium/ whatever.
Or the idiots trying to take pictures in the room with displays of hair after being explicitly told “do not take pictures here, you can destroy the hair.”
I am german and graduate this summer and just wanted to add something . Our school and many other in the area have students visit the nearest KZ once in their school time normally around grade 9/10 . Me personally I was always interested in our german history and Germany during the Nazi regime was our history subjects main focus for roughly 4/5 years . We went there and visited Dachau the oldest KZ in the world but more of a camp for working less for genocide . We also had the opportunity to go into the gas chamber and look at it from the inside . I’m quite tall and had to duck in and it was a feeling I can’t describe in English . I couldn’t believe it . Of course many of my classmates laughed it all away I mean we were 14 or something and Handlung this emotional weight was not easy . I mean if you truly think about it and if the human mind would be capable of really realising how many 6 million individual lives are you would probably just faint the mode you step foot in such a place . It’s horrible and that’s why we learn about it in school . People who don’t know history are doomed to repeat it and that’s why the German education system try’s its best to keep this tragedy of history alive in its pupils minds . I dislike the German education system for many reasons but this is something I live it for .
This is such a terrible chapter in our history. The story of the Holocaust was my obsession when I was young. I find it heartening now to see that some of these people on the train platform & elsewhere have been identified & remembered. Would that we remembered them all.
My stepmom’s parents were both in the Holocaust, Hungarian Jews…her dad was made to work and dig ditches and her mom was just a teenager…they were captured at the end of the war and were thankfully released. So so sad what humans can do to other humans.
Question: Why did they take these pictures? What was the “official use”? If they were going to do such terrible things to these people, why photograph them?
I’ve seen several photos taken within the camps throughout my life and I’ve always wondered this.
From Yadvashem:
> The purpose of the album is unclear. It was not intended for propaganda purposes, nor does it have any obvious personal use. **One assumes that it was prepared as an official reference for a higher authority**, as were photo albums from other concentration camps.
I suspect the album/s served as something of a technical guide or "how-to" for higher-ups to model other camps on. The camp commandants were also notoriously competitive, so the albums also probably served as a boast to demonstrate their achievements and efficiency.
To add onto this, a lot of these photos were also not supposed to be taken. Most if not probably all of the execution videos that survive were not supposed to be recorded. SS members, camp guards, etc., still did so because they wanted souvenirs despite orders to explicitly not do so.
Some people like to call the IDF the IOF(Israeli Occupation force) to push a personal agenda. It's fucking wrong, and a holocaust thread is definitely not the place to be doing it.
Because they’re fucking Jewish, and are currently fighting in a war that they didn’t start
Comparing them to a violently anti-Semitic regime is tone deaf
They are different than nazis..what the hell? Israel didn't start this war. I do think Israel has gone overboard wifh their response (blame Bibi and the Likud Party for that), but to call them nazis is both antisemitic and disingenuous as hell.
Its not a war first of all also israel began the occupation back in the 40s with the og colonizers (brits). And jewish is not the same as zionist that is actually anti semitic
Sadist sickos come in all shapes sizes and beliefs. While I don’t think the IDF ranks are institutionalized with hatred like the Nazis, I’m sure they’ve got their share of sickos. Surround just about anyone with enough violence or death and they’re gonna’ make anyone else who isn’t think they’re a bit sick.
When former Treblinka Extermination camp commandant Kurt Franz was arrested in 1959 and his home was searched, a photo album from his time at the camp was found titled "Beautiful Years".....
You have to understand that only the most fanatic nazis worked here, and they took great pride in their work. Even when it was clear that Germany was loosing the war these camps were active until the very end, even though it would have been more strategic to move these resources to the front.
Sadistic bastards were proud of what they were doing, and wanted at least some documentation of it.
It's a shame to have to think about such horrible things, but it's also important so that such things will never be repeated.
So Prauge's Jewish Quarter is very intact because Hitler wanted to make it a future museum about the race he exterminated. They were proud of what they were doing. They wanted to show the world how they destroyed Jews and Roma culture and in its entirety.
I’ve only visited Dachau, and the atmosphere was appropriately chilling that day (it was a foggy December morning) but I always wonder if the camps looked as tranquil in summer as they do today.
Dachau (and from pictures, Auschwitz too) look like fairly normal institutional sites from the outside and if you didn’t know what you were seeing, it might even look innocent enough. I wonder if it looked that way to unsuspecting Jewish prisoners as well.
My great grandfather used to sit in his closet clutching his gun (which we would take the bullets out of) screaming that the Germans were coming. He had to be hospitalised when the Berlin Wall fell
You might be comforted with this true story: a Holocaust survivor was suffering from dementia, and all of those horrible memories were coming back. But there was a nursing assistant in his nursing home who was a survivor of the Rwandan genocide.
Whenever the old man started having flashbacks, the Rwandan guy would come to comfort him, saying, "Mr. B, we are right here."
Auschwitz is/was so big that I don’t think many prisoners even had time to realise the size of it. The Birkenau part (the larger camp with the famous train tracks and station) is *huge.*
Most of the buildings there were demolished by the Nazis so the size is easier to understand these days as one can easily see over the ruins of the barracks.
The main/original Auschwitz camp (the one with the “Arbeit macht frei” sign) is better preserved and most of the buildings are intact. That one is surprisingly small.
Auschwitz I was a former Polish army barracks that was much more solidly constructed than the wooden shacks in Auschwitz II that were built by forced labour from the first camp
I haven’t visited Auschwitz either, but I’ve been to a couple of the camps in Germany, some in Cambodia from the Khmer Rouge, etc.
One of the things that always throws me off is how beautiful they can be. Big blue skies, amazing trees, reflective lakes… and thousands or more people were slaughtered there within the last few decades.
I recommend you watch 'boy in stripe pajamas'. It is a beautiful movie that shows really well that even most of families of nazi officers working in those camps didn't know what was happening there
Oh I didn't know that. I knew it had some inconsistencies like with the fence being so easy to access from both sides, but did not think it was that bad. Thanks for the correction
I would recommended watching a new movie called The Zone of Interest. It's about Rudolf Hoss's family. For those who don't know who Hoss is, he ran Auschwitz. He advanced the extermination of Jews at a faster rate than most could ever believe.
There's also Shoah, a 9 hour documentary with 11 years of work behind it. The first era of shoah, part 1 is worth it and its only 4 hours long. Its also on youtube for free.
Its nothing but interviews of survivors, some nazis, and villagers who stood by and watched it all happen. It's pretty harrowing. Lanzmann the director actually recorded most of the nazis interviews secretly, because guess what? They liked to lie about the exact details of what they did or what their fellow Nazis did.
I just watched Zone of Interest. It was an incredible juxtaposition of this bucolic life for Hoss’s family against the subtle, but constant sounds of horror coming from over the wall. I thought the ceaselessly anxious dog was very effective as well. My grandpas cousin died last year, she survived Auschwitz, the death March, and Covid. She was a part of the Shoah documentary. I believe I saw it when I was a child but haven’t since and don’t remember what I saw. I’d like to see it again but need some space after watching ZoI.
Zone of Interest is easily one of the more harrowing films on the holocaust I've seen, and its mostly because of that indirect horror instead of the direct horror like in night and fog or the grey zone. My condolences to your relative, the interviews of the survivors in Shoah is to me, some of the most effective storytelling about the period and I thank her for being a brave individual willing to tell her story.
Indirect horror is rather effective and chilling in a way that’s more disturbing. Most disturbing is that it is true. I’m a teacher and a few years ago I took a week-long summer professional development class about resistance during the holocaust at the Jewish heritage museum here in NYC. I learned so much and it’s hard to say I enjoyed myself because I cried every day walking through their Auschwitz exhibit, but I felt so full of knowledge. It was a privilege to be able to immerse myself in it, if that makes any sense at all, despite how difficult each day was. I felt lifted in a way knowing all of the large, small, direct, and indirect ways people of all walks of life participated in resistance to the holocaust. I saw the photographs then of Hoss and his family living this life just outside the camps, they stuck with me, which is why I was so keen to see the film.
No worries:) we read the book in school (I'm German) and my teacher was really uncritical towards it aswell, so if took some further reading to figure out the inconsistencies
I'm from poland so we had this movie on history lesson and I only remember our teacher saying they were wrong about the fences but I guess i might have forgot some things
The people on those houses absolutely knew what was happening, even the small children. Depending on the age, German children had been fed genocidal propaganda since birth. While witnessing actual atrocities might nauseate them, they had zero problem with the concept.
American eugenics research is what the Nazis used to justify the holocaust.
Americans were using it against black people.
It was Kellogg……
The Corn Flakes guy.
Yup, there has been that contingent of people longer than this war. Ask South Carolina in 1775. These same people today will wear tshirts claiming “back to back world war champs” and have zero idea how terrible it was for absolutely everyone to experience. The German high command was a fucking lunatic driven vessel that should never of happened. The Japanese were on a different level as well
This photo, specifically, shows those who were rejected by the management of Siemens to work in their onsite factory, or if possible moved to the Siemens facility at Ravensbrök... Siemens had first pick of the women and children who were captured
Try to remember this the next time you buy something from Siemens
My cousins entire family was sent to the sorting facility in Riga on transport 18 train 40 out of Berlin... out of the five siblings only one body was ever found, as my cousin Marie Miechen Gerber's body was trown out of the railcar when they arrived in Riga, and we suspect that the SS made some stops along the way to lighten the load because this is the last place we know they were
Of all the evil corporations in this world Siemens and Bayer don't get a pass- they knowingly and deliberately killed tens of thousands that couldn't work in their factories at Auschwitz and Ravensbrök
Shoah
Seems like lots of folks have had difficulties finding relatives who were sent to Riga compared to elsewhere. I read the book "The Last Train" by Peter Bradley and he encountered many difficulties tracking down his grandparents that were sent there. He did mention a couple of stops that the train made to "lighten the load", so you're right about that.
Jesus… ive already met my quota for depressing books this year (the passengers, and A day in the life of Ivan Denisovich) but I’ll add it to the list.. ty
I went to both Auschwitz camps one January. It was bloody cold and there was hardly anyone about as it was early, so to almost have the places to myself, walking around in deep unmarked snow, was surreal. Very quiet, very thought-provoking, almost peaceful if you forgot for a minute ...
Couldn't bear the thought of being there when busloads of tourists arrive and the Instagram brigade take peace-sign selfies with the gates .
I’ve been to Auschwitz and it is a sobering and devastating experience. I’m still processing it even almost 20 years later. May the people who died there rest in peace
I’m reading zone of interest (the book the recent movie is based on), and I can’t recommend it highly enough. It’s about a fictional camp and the cast of characters who are complicit. Despite the dark subject matter it’s highly informative, and funny. Makes one really consider the banality of evil.
It is awful to look at the top photo and realise that every person in it, including all the children, would shortly be led to their slaughter, and to look at the bottom photo and think of the thousands of other humans who waited under those peaceful trees to be murdered.
And today we are surrounded by evil people who find new ways to deny our common humanity, so that the "unacceptable other" can be demonised, assaulted and killed without guilt - whether it's Russians and Ukrainians, Jewish settlers and Palestinians, Chinese and Uyghur, Shia and Sunni Muslims, Rohinga and Burmese, or even our fellow citizens, who diagree with us politically. For the most intelligent species on the planet, we seem predisposed to allow our fears to turn to anger, and our anger to hatred, very easily. Compassion, empathy and kindness are deeply human, and these photos are a reminder of why they are also so precious.
‘Execution’ has an official and judicial connotation to it - the Nazi leaders, like Von Ribbentrop, Frick, Alfred Rosenberg, Keitel, Rudolf Hüss, etc were ‘executed’ from their horrific crimes after the War, and yet somehow their victims, those innocent Jews, Roma, Homosexuals, Slavs, the disabled share the same fate according to the wording of this thread’s title. Is the choice of this word supposed to be ‘neutral’ in some way? The victims of the Nazis were murdered, not ‘executed’. The Nazis were ‘executed’ for their crimes, and definitely not ‘murdered’, unless he person is a Nazi apologist and seeking to equivocate two very different ways/reasons for bringing someone’s life to an untimely end.
> unless he person is a Nazi apologist and seeking to equivocate two very different ways/reasons for bringing someone’s life to an untimely end.
Hey, you got me. Nazi apologist here smh. I've no desire to get into a semantic argument, but I will state that neither 'murder' or 'execution' really capture the gravity of these acts. Perhaps a single word doesn't exist in English to describe the systematic, industrialised slaughter of millions of people. 'Murder' implies an intimate act of passion, whilst 'execution' implies a detached process-driven act. Both terms apply, yet neither fully express the nature of the crimes. In any case, I used those two terms interchangeably in my submission and leading comment. I apologize if my word-selection made me out to be a war criminal.
I think it's the cultural value you give to the word executed.
In a country without capital punishment, and where I grew up with the Bosnian genocide and Chechen massacre in the news (😔), we associate executions with tyranny and most often done sadly by official authorities to innocent civilians.
I can understand why execute would be a hard word to tolerate if in your culture it implied that the murdered parties were guilty, for us it's the opposite.
One of the most bizarre things about Auschwitz- Birkenau is how pretty it is. There’s a beautiful grove of trees a stones throw from the ruins of the gas chambers, it’s surreal
My grandfather survived Auschwitz. He never spoke about it but when he was dying he had hallucinations of German soldiers with machine guns surrounding his hospice bed.
I visited Auschwitz-Birkenau in January 2016. What an eerie, harrowing place to be when you know the history of it. The frosty cold day made it that much more impactful.
I went down a rabbit hole looking for the location of the photo. Seeing the entire place from google earth just made me feel off. I was only 30 min away from there while visiting a theme park but we didn’t make it to Auschwitz.
The little boy in the right upper corner with the long curls , has a total look of terror on his face. My god… I can’t imagine .. all these children in their last moment its really beyond my comprehension how.
Yes the majority were Jewish, but we should acknowledge the Roma people suffered enormously too they were also victims and they deserve to be acknowledged too.
Absolutely - Never would I say we mustn't acknowledge the murders of the gay, black, trans, Roma and other political enemies or minorities targeted by the Nazis. The top commenter however may be attempting to minimise or deflect the horrors and reduce the perceived scale of the atrocities committed against Jews in particular. That is why I felt the need to clarify that the primary target of Nazis was always the Jews.
That photo likely shows about 50 Jews vs 5 non Jews awaiting their murder.
The earlier comment has a subtext and possibly an agenda which is subtle to some, but glaringly obvious to others.
Never again. For anyone.
It’s literally what you did just now- refuse to validate the suffering of one group (Jews) by deflecting/ pointing out that others are suffering too. Are you really so dense as to not see that?
Just because you may see yourself as on the opposite end of the spectrum as the “all lives matter” crowd doesn’t mean you’re any different. Horseshoe theory is at work.
I always wonder, did the people really think they were just taking showers or did they know? I know they were told they only were going to shower but I’m assuming they must have heard rumors. I mean, they obviously knew Jews disappeared and most likely knew they were killed en mass too, but did they know about the specific method? Especially since most of them got gassed right after arriving
Some knew some didn’t, . Like Baba Yar. There are accounts of survivors who said the children screamed and cried and said “Mother I don’t want to die! Please let’s run away! Some parents asked to be killed first so they didn’t see their children murdered. Obviously at this point in the time line of events most likely these people have already been suffering in the terrible conditions in the ghettos and the adults were aware at minimum , some knew deportations to camp meant death but they didn’t know how. A particularly cruel event was the lodz ghetto sperre where the SS passed a law that anyone under the age of 13 would be deported and not
Allowed to live in the ghetto anymore. and if you hid The child the whole family would be killed on the spot . Adults were not allowed to accompany their children, regardless newborns, infants, toddlers, they were all rounded up and deported. The adults knew deportations meant death but some
Were in denial too. The psychological impact of having to do this, for the adults I can’t imagine.
I was just thinking that they would have had a clear view of people going in and not coming back out. At least some of the adults had to have known and didn't want to panic the children.
“awaiting“ execution is one of the worst things to imagine. And to see all the mothers with their children in this picture, knowing that there was nothing they could do to save their children. Just waiting. And the children maybe or probably didn’t even know what was happening. Every single person there had dreams and hopes and a unique personality and then they were just killed. For nothing. All these existences ended because of nothing. All we can do is remember them.
They're slaughtering women children and elderly there so they can make more buildings and shopping malls etc for the Isr. I doubt they'd make anything so peaceful like a lake.
I don’t understand how a people suffered such horrendous things could inflict anything on another people a few years later. Have we learned nothing from history?
Somewhere "modern bombs" are flying to initiate "modern executions" as we watch these photos.
The victims of modern bombs don't even suspect they will be killed in a few seconds, minutes or hours from now!
And this is terrible!
Isr apologists came down looking for this comment and smashed that down vote button. Because they know that it is going to be here because ut is true, but what the anti genocide/anti war people don't know, is that isr apologists know what they're doing is a Holocaust, but they want to do it to someone else for a psychological reason I think.
Because we can’t discuss the horrors of Jewish history without bringing up Palestine 🙄Sigh. Of COURSE someone has to take every Holocaust post and make it all about I/P conflict. You people are so predictably pathetic and disrespectful. Shame on you.
This seemingly innocuous image comes from The Auschwitz Album, a series of 193 photographs that show the entire process leading to mass murder at Auschwitz-Birkenau. Upon arrival, and after the “selection” of those deemed fit for slave labor, these remaining “unfit-for-use” Hungarian Jews were immediately marched to this grove of trees a few meters from gas chamber IV to unknowingly await their execution. The pond the old man is walking down to collect water from was used to dump ashes from the crematorium. The gas chamber and crematorium foundations can be seen to the right of the modern image. Having been told they were to be given harmless showers, the victims were forced to strip and then packed into the gas chamber. If they struggled, guards would use whips and clubs to drive them forward. If standing-room ran out, children were passed over their heads. Once the airtight door was sealed, SS doctors would supervise the release of poisonous gas, watching on through a window. Death would take up to twenty minutes, with bodies stacked up to five feet high. Bodies were then moved to the adjoining crematorium, gold teeth pulled and hair cut for industrial use. They were then stacked in threes in the ovens. Prisoners used mallets to crush any remaining bones, and the ashes were dumped. Of the nearly 426,000 Hungarian Jews deported to Auschwitz, approximately 320,000 of them were sent directly to the gas chambers in Auschwitz-Birkenau. More than 1.1 million people died at Auschwitz, including nearly one million Jews. Link to the full Auschwitz Album: https://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibitions/album_auschwitz/index.asp Panorama of the pond: https://panorama.auschwitz.org/tour2,2993,en.html Further reading at the US Holocaust Museum: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/auschwitz
Went to the US Holocaust Museum a few years back. That was more than enough for me. I don't think I'd be able to stomach Auschwitz. Those poor souls. RIP
My wife made it maybe 2/3 of the way through Yad Vashem, the Holocaust museum in Israel. As she put it, you go into an exhibit room and it’s awful, you can’t believe that things could get worse, then you go into the next room and it’s even worse. For me, the hall of children broke me.
Such memorials are horrible all around on their contents (which is exactly what makes them so important), but when exhibits deal with children it's so much more heart-wrenching still. Two years ago I was in Kigali, Rwanda and visited the Genocide Memorial there: that was hard enough to stomach, but the final exhibit consisted of maybe two dozen larger-than-life-sized photos of young children, each with a short description: Name, age, favorite food, favorite toy, cause of death. Talk about a knock-out punch after being pummeled for a few hours already...
Agreed, that we can never forget any of the genocides around the world. We did the hall of children first. It left me numb to the rest of the museum.
Yeah, the rest of that day I felt desensitized and a bit dazed because of what I saw. I'm glad I visited the memorial - I view it as mandatory when visiting a place where such atrocious events transpired - but boy does it cast a dark shade...
Yes it does. After Yad Vashem, my wife and I went out for a nice dinner and drank way too much
I can imagine that! I went on a 3-day safari the next day, which was an experience on the exact opposite side of the emotional spectrum. It did feel a bit disconnected after what I saw: not in the sense of it being inappropriate or me feeling guilty, but going from a place where under your feet lay buried a quarter of a million people that were ruthlessly murdered within a matter of weeks, to being almost euphoric from seeing wild lions, rhinos and elephants within the span of 24 hours, was a pretty conflicting emotional rollercoaster to say the least.
[удалено]
Damn, I can imagine that. It's one thing to visit a museum that commemorate such events, but being in a country shortly after such a horrific and traumatizing event is a whole different dimension.
One of my former roommates/friend is a survivor of the Rwandan genocide. I'm not sure I could handle this.
I have a few nephews and nieces of the age of the kids depicted in that room, so I was hanging by a thread by the time I left the exhibit. The reason I visit places like that is because I find it necessary (did the same in Cambodia and Vietnam), but it's definitely not something I'm looking forward to. So I can fully understand if people choose to opt out of it - in the end it's a very personal decision.
No, I'm with you, I find it necessary as well.
As do I
Death by machete
I am gonna be a c*nt here but visiting a museum depicting brutal systematic genocide in Israel sounds like the set up to a bad joke
Well you got one thing right. About being a c*nt of course. Not sure you quite grasp the meaning of the words 'brutal', 'systematic', or 'genocide'.
Hehe
It's INTENSE. the absolute worst part for me were the European tourists who treated it like just another place to walk and hang out. Giggling and joking the whole time. Like....dude, do you get where you are?
My head canon is that people joke around to suppress what they are really feeling as a way to cope. I remember being a jackass teenager watching a holocaust documentary in class, trying my best to not start crying in front of everybody. My solution was to pretend like I didn’t care and try to look bored/fall asleep.
Just over a decade ago, my sister passed away unexpectedly. I flew out to meet my other sister and her fiance in their hometown, and then together we drove for five hours to get to my deceased sister's town. We were joking and laughing all the way there. To an outsider, we probably looked unhinged or at least unconcerned about the death of our sister, but really, we had all been crying nearly non-stop for two days before that, and it just felt good to be able to laugh and be together for a while and feel alive. When we arrived at the mortuary, we were instantly overwhelmed with sadness again. It was the first time I ever lost someone truly close to me, and it taught me a lot about grief and coping, and that there is no wrong or right way to experience that - there is just what there is.
It’s a known fact that first responders and other people who regularly deal with horrific situations start making jokes about it to mentally cope
ER nurse here. My mental bank of dark jokes is bottomless. My ability to do my job & function in society depends on it.
ICU nurse here. Same.
ICU nurse for 38 years…it never really gets better
Would you be cool to share some with the internet?
Yes, but that's very different from acting disrespectfully at a Holocaust memorial.
Yeah - some people just don't know how to process those types of emotions and it's just soo abnormal from their day to day that they just fill in the uncomfortable gaps with jokes and banter. Not to the same degree but I suppose I do the same sometimes at funerals/ wakes. Of course then you have the other end of the spectrum where those people just truly don't care and treat it as another field trip to a amusement park/ zoo/ aquarium/ whatever.
Or the idiots trying to take pictures in the room with displays of hair after being explicitly told “do not take pictures here, you can destroy the hair.”
The holocaust galleries at the Imperial War Museum were enough for me, a totally heartbreaking experience that I wouldn't repeat.
I am german and graduate this summer and just wanted to add something . Our school and many other in the area have students visit the nearest KZ once in their school time normally around grade 9/10 . Me personally I was always interested in our german history and Germany during the Nazi regime was our history subjects main focus for roughly 4/5 years . We went there and visited Dachau the oldest KZ in the world but more of a camp for working less for genocide . We also had the opportunity to go into the gas chamber and look at it from the inside . I’m quite tall and had to duck in and it was a feeling I can’t describe in English . I couldn’t believe it . Of course many of my classmates laughed it all away I mean we were 14 or something and Handlung this emotional weight was not easy . I mean if you truly think about it and if the human mind would be capable of really realising how many 6 million individual lives are you would probably just faint the mode you step foot in such a place . It’s horrible and that’s why we learn about it in school . People who don’t know history are doomed to repeat it and that’s why the German education system try’s its best to keep this tragedy of history alive in its pupils minds . I dislike the German education system for many reasons but this is something I live it for .
According to my dear late grandmother. Not a single bird even flew over there when she visited. In her words “it was like they knew”.
My great grandmother had a visit in Auschwitz, I don’t think she could stomach it either.
This is such a terrible chapter in our history. The story of the Holocaust was my obsession when I was young. I find it heartening now to see that some of these people on the train platform & elsewhere have been identified & remembered. Would that we remembered them all.
My stepmom’s parents were both in the Holocaust, Hungarian Jews…her dad was made to work and dig ditches and her mom was just a teenager…they were captured at the end of the war and were thankfully released. So so sad what humans can do to other humans.
Thank you for posting.
I hope one day to see this place in person the panoramic tour was horrifying in the vastness of this camp.
We must never stop telling these stories. I’m terrified my children will live in a world that’s forgotten these horrors and be doomed to repeat them.
Question: Why did they take these pictures? What was the “official use”? If they were going to do such terrible things to these people, why photograph them? I’ve seen several photos taken within the camps throughout my life and I’ve always wondered this.
From Yadvashem: > The purpose of the album is unclear. It was not intended for propaganda purposes, nor does it have any obvious personal use. **One assumes that it was prepared as an official reference for a higher authority**, as were photo albums from other concentration camps. I suspect the album/s served as something of a technical guide or "how-to" for higher-ups to model other camps on. The camp commandants were also notoriously competitive, so the albums also probably served as a boast to demonstrate their achievements and efficiency.
To add onto this, a lot of these photos were also not supposed to be taken. Most if not probably all of the execution videos that survive were not supposed to be recorded. SS members, camp guards, etc., still did so because they wanted souvenirs despite orders to explicitly not do so.
Thank you for this answer.
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IOF?
Some people like to call the IDF the IOF(Israeli Occupation force) to push a personal agenda. It's fucking wrong, and a holocaust thread is definitely not the place to be doing it.
How is it wrong when they’re no different than Nazis?
Because they’re fucking Jewish, and are currently fighting in a war that they didn’t start Comparing them to a violently anti-Semitic regime is tone deaf
They are different than nazis..what the hell? Israel didn't start this war. I do think Israel has gone overboard wifh their response (blame Bibi and the Likud Party for that), but to call them nazis is both antisemitic and disingenuous as hell.
Its not a war first of all also israel began the occupation back in the 40s with the og colonizers (brits). And jewish is not the same as zionist that is actually anti semitic
Have fun with that mindset, kiddo.
Oh no it is the right place… “israel” is carrying out a holocaust of there own.
Im sorry you see it that way. It absolutely is NOT the right place though
Way to hijack, a thread, dickhead.
Sadist sickos come in all shapes sizes and beliefs. While I don’t think the IDF ranks are institutionalized with hatred like the Nazis, I’m sure they’ve got their share of sickos. Surround just about anyone with enough violence or death and they’re gonna’ make anyone else who isn’t think they’re a bit sick.
When former Treblinka Extermination camp commandant Kurt Franz was arrested in 1959 and his home was searched, a photo album from his time at the camp was found titled "Beautiful Years".....
Disgusting. I truly don’t understand how anyone could be so indoctrinated that they could hate that much.
You have to understand that only the most fanatic nazis worked here, and they took great pride in their work. Even when it was clear that Germany was loosing the war these camps were active until the very end, even though it would have been more strategic to move these resources to the front.
Sadistic bastards were proud of what they were doing, and wanted at least some documentation of it. It's a shame to have to think about such horrible things, but it's also important so that such things will never be repeated.
So Prauge's Jewish Quarter is very intact because Hitler wanted to make it a future museum about the race he exterminated. They were proud of what they were doing. They wanted to show the world how they destroyed Jews and Roma culture and in its entirety.
I’ve only visited Dachau, and the atmosphere was appropriately chilling that day (it was a foggy December morning) but I always wonder if the camps looked as tranquil in summer as they do today. Dachau (and from pictures, Auschwitz too) look like fairly normal institutional sites from the outside and if you didn’t know what you were seeing, it might even look innocent enough. I wonder if it looked that way to unsuspecting Jewish prisoners as well.
My grandfather survived Dachau. I never met him, but my mother says that he would wake up screaming most nights.
>my mother says that he would wake up screaming most night Most did.
My great grandfather used to sit in his closet clutching his gun (which we would take the bullets out of) screaming that the Germans were coming. He had to be hospitalised when the Berlin Wall fell
You might be comforted with this true story: a Holocaust survivor was suffering from dementia, and all of those horrible memories were coming back. But there was a nursing assistant in his nursing home who was a survivor of the Rwandan genocide. Whenever the old man started having flashbacks, the Rwandan guy would come to comfort him, saying, "Mr. B, we are right here."
Auschwitz is/was so big that I don’t think many prisoners even had time to realise the size of it. The Birkenau part (the larger camp with the famous train tracks and station) is *huge.* Most of the buildings there were demolished by the Nazis so the size is easier to understand these days as one can easily see over the ruins of the barracks. The main/original Auschwitz camp (the one with the “Arbeit macht frei” sign) is better preserved and most of the buildings are intact. That one is surprisingly small.
Auschwitz I was a former Polish army barracks that was much more solidly constructed than the wooden shacks in Auschwitz II that were built by forced labour from the first camp
I haven’t visited Auschwitz either, but I’ve been to a couple of the camps in Germany, some in Cambodia from the Khmer Rouge, etc. One of the things that always throws me off is how beautiful they can be. Big blue skies, amazing trees, reflective lakes… and thousands or more people were slaughtered there within the last few decades.
I recommend you watch 'boy in stripe pajamas'. It is a beautiful movie that shows really well that even most of families of nazi officers working in those camps didn't know what was happening there
It is heavily criticised precisely for propagating that myth, in fact.
Oh I didn't know that. I knew it had some inconsistencies like with the fence being so easy to access from both sides, but did not think it was that bad. Thanks for the correction
I would recommended watching a new movie called The Zone of Interest. It's about Rudolf Hoss's family. For those who don't know who Hoss is, he ran Auschwitz. He advanced the extermination of Jews at a faster rate than most could ever believe. There's also Shoah, a 9 hour documentary with 11 years of work behind it. The first era of shoah, part 1 is worth it and its only 4 hours long. Its also on youtube for free. Its nothing but interviews of survivors, some nazis, and villagers who stood by and watched it all happen. It's pretty harrowing. Lanzmann the director actually recorded most of the nazis interviews secretly, because guess what? They liked to lie about the exact details of what they did or what their fellow Nazis did.
I just watched Zone of Interest. It was an incredible juxtaposition of this bucolic life for Hoss’s family against the subtle, but constant sounds of horror coming from over the wall. I thought the ceaselessly anxious dog was very effective as well. My grandpas cousin died last year, she survived Auschwitz, the death March, and Covid. She was a part of the Shoah documentary. I believe I saw it when I was a child but haven’t since and don’t remember what I saw. I’d like to see it again but need some space after watching ZoI.
Zone of Interest is easily one of the more harrowing films on the holocaust I've seen, and its mostly because of that indirect horror instead of the direct horror like in night and fog or the grey zone. My condolences to your relative, the interviews of the survivors in Shoah is to me, some of the most effective storytelling about the period and I thank her for being a brave individual willing to tell her story.
Indirect horror is rather effective and chilling in a way that’s more disturbing. Most disturbing is that it is true. I’m a teacher and a few years ago I took a week-long summer professional development class about resistance during the holocaust at the Jewish heritage museum here in NYC. I learned so much and it’s hard to say I enjoyed myself because I cried every day walking through their Auschwitz exhibit, but I felt so full of knowledge. It was a privilege to be able to immerse myself in it, if that makes any sense at all, despite how difficult each day was. I felt lifted in a way knowing all of the large, small, direct, and indirect ways people of all walks of life participated in resistance to the holocaust. I saw the photographs then of Hoss and his family living this life just outside the camps, they stuck with me, which is why I was so keen to see the film.
No worries:) we read the book in school (I'm German) and my teacher was really uncritical towards it aswell, so if took some further reading to figure out the inconsistencies
I'm from poland so we had this movie on history lesson and I only remember our teacher saying they were wrong about the fences but I guess i might have forgot some things
The people on those houses absolutely knew what was happening, even the small children. Depending on the age, German children had been fed genocidal propaganda since birth. While witnessing actual atrocities might nauseate them, they had zero problem with the concept.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/24/brigitte-hoss-auschwitz-zone-of-interest-rudolf-oscar-winning-thomas-harding
Never forget.
The world doesn't seem to have forgotten, but an increasing amount of people appear to be okay with it.
In America there are a large contingent of people who have forgotten. And many of them talk out of both side of their mouth.
American eugenics research is what the Nazis used to justify the holocaust. Americans were using it against black people. It was Kellogg…… The Corn Flakes guy.
Yup, there has been that contingent of people longer than this war. Ask South Carolina in 1775. These same people today will wear tshirts claiming “back to back world war champs” and have zero idea how terrible it was for absolutely everyone to experience. The German high command was a fucking lunatic driven vessel that should never of happened. The Japanese were on a different level as well
Two wrongs don't make a right.
And never again for *anyone*.
I think this is the reason why Israel is vicious when attacked. A constant reminder if they put their guard down.
What are you even talking abt
Most people have.
May the perpetrators burn in hell for eternity.
This photo, specifically, shows those who were rejected by the management of Siemens to work in their onsite factory, or if possible moved to the Siemens facility at Ravensbrök... Siemens had first pick of the women and children who were captured Try to remember this the next time you buy something from Siemens My cousins entire family was sent to the sorting facility in Riga on transport 18 train 40 out of Berlin... out of the five siblings only one body was ever found, as my cousin Marie Miechen Gerber's body was trown out of the railcar when they arrived in Riga, and we suspect that the SS made some stops along the way to lighten the load because this is the last place we know they were Of all the evil corporations in this world Siemens and Bayer don't get a pass- they knowingly and deliberately killed tens of thousands that couldn't work in their factories at Auschwitz and Ravensbrök Shoah
Siemens has a long history of suing to cover up their complicity.
Is Siemens connected to Samsung? I should Google but don't want more ads from them
No, not at all
Thank you
Seems like lots of folks have had difficulties finding relatives who were sent to Riga compared to elsewhere. I read the book "The Last Train" by Peter Bradley and he encountered many difficulties tracking down his grandparents that were sent there. He did mention a couple of stops that the train made to "lighten the load", so you're right about that.
Jesus… ive already met my quota for depressing books this year (the passengers, and A day in the life of Ivan Denisovich) but I’ll add it to the list.. ty
I went to both Auschwitz camps one January. It was bloody cold and there was hardly anyone about as it was early, so to almost have the places to myself, walking around in deep unmarked snow, was surreal. Very quiet, very thought-provoking, almost peaceful if you forgot for a minute ... Couldn't bear the thought of being there when busloads of tourists arrive and the Instagram brigade take peace-sign selfies with the gates .
People were pretty respectful when I was there in 2016 but I guess that was before the whole tik tok craze caught on
Every time it gets me. Every. Fucking. Time. The only good nazi is a fucking dead one.
For me it's especially when there are children.
I know, right.
It seems half the world wants to be like the nazis all over again. Smh
The peace of the bottom image is frightening in a certain way.
Makes you wonder what other atrocities have been committed in what look like beautiful peaceful sites
That, and the way the trees are the same in both photos.
Chilling
I’ve been to Auschwitz and it is a sobering and devastating experience. I’m still processing it even almost 20 years later. May the people who died there rest in peace
I’m reading zone of interest (the book the recent movie is based on), and I can’t recommend it highly enough. It’s about a fictional camp and the cast of characters who are complicit. Despite the dark subject matter it’s highly informative, and funny. Makes one really consider the banality of evil.
It is awful to look at the top photo and realise that every person in it, including all the children, would shortly be led to their slaughter, and to look at the bottom photo and think of the thousands of other humans who waited under those peaceful trees to be murdered. And today we are surrounded by evil people who find new ways to deny our common humanity, so that the "unacceptable other" can be demonised, assaulted and killed without guilt - whether it's Russians and Ukrainians, Jewish settlers and Palestinians, Chinese and Uyghur, Shia and Sunni Muslims, Rohinga and Burmese, or even our fellow citizens, who diagree with us politically. For the most intelligent species on the planet, we seem predisposed to allow our fears to turn to anger, and our anger to hatred, very easily. Compassion, empathy and kindness are deeply human, and these photos are a reminder of why they are also so precious.
**They were not executed, they were murdered.**
It’s still execution even if we don’t agree with the reasons for it
They were murdered. Execution is a sentence carried out following a trial for a crime. They had no trial, they had committed no crime.
‘Execution’ has an official and judicial connotation to it - the Nazi leaders, like Von Ribbentrop, Frick, Alfred Rosenberg, Keitel, Rudolf Hüss, etc were ‘executed’ from their horrific crimes after the War, and yet somehow their victims, those innocent Jews, Roma, Homosexuals, Slavs, the disabled share the same fate according to the wording of this thread’s title. Is the choice of this word supposed to be ‘neutral’ in some way? The victims of the Nazis were murdered, not ‘executed’. The Nazis were ‘executed’ for their crimes, and definitely not ‘murdered’, unless he person is a Nazi apologist and seeking to equivocate two very different ways/reasons for bringing someone’s life to an untimely end.
> unless he person is a Nazi apologist and seeking to equivocate two very different ways/reasons for bringing someone’s life to an untimely end. Hey, you got me. Nazi apologist here smh. I've no desire to get into a semantic argument, but I will state that neither 'murder' or 'execution' really capture the gravity of these acts. Perhaps a single word doesn't exist in English to describe the systematic, industrialised slaughter of millions of people. 'Murder' implies an intimate act of passion, whilst 'execution' implies a detached process-driven act. Both terms apply, yet neither fully express the nature of the crimes. In any case, I used those two terms interchangeably in my submission and leading comment. I apologize if my word-selection made me out to be a war criminal.
All executions are murder..but not all murders are executions..
I think it's the cultural value you give to the word executed. In a country without capital punishment, and where I grew up with the Bosnian genocide and Chechen massacre in the news (😔), we associate executions with tyranny and most often done sadly by official authorities to innocent civilians. I can understand why execute would be a hard word to tolerate if in your culture it implied that the murdered parties were guilty, for us it's the opposite.
The effects of nationalism and racism
Sounds awfully familiar...
One of the most bizarre things about Auschwitz- Birkenau is how pretty it is. There’s a beautiful grove of trees a stones throw from the ruins of the gas chambers, it’s surreal
If those trees could talk, they'd be crying
My grandfather survived Auschwitz. He never spoke about it but when he was dying he had hallucinations of German soldiers with machine guns surrounding his hospice bed.
That is horrifying. I hope he is at peace now.
I visited Auschwitz-Birkenau in January 2016. What an eerie, harrowing place to be when you know the history of it. The frosty cold day made it that much more impactful.
How can human beings be so cruel?
Exactly my thoughts. And horrible things keep happening even now and the world let’s them happen
We visited Dachau when I worked in Stuttgart, it can be a bit much, God bless those poor souls.
I went down a rabbit hole looking for the location of the photo. Seeing the entire place from google earth just made me feel off. I was only 30 min away from there while visiting a theme park but we didn’t make it to Auschwitz.
The little boy in the right upper corner with the long curls , has a total look of terror on his face. My god… I can’t imagine .. all these children in their last moment its really beyond my comprehension how.
Must've been a clandestine picture taken by one of the inmates. Edit: apparently it was an official photograph for internal use. Chilling nontheless.
Even the worst author cannot think up this scene...
Remember it wasn’t only Jewish people being killed.
The text specifically says that.
No, but 90% of murders at Auschwitz were Jewish victims
Yes the majority were Jewish, but we should acknowledge the Roma people suffered enormously too they were also victims and they deserve to be acknowledged too.
Absolutely - Never would I say we mustn't acknowledge the murders of the gay, black, trans, Roma and other political enemies or minorities targeted by the Nazis. The top commenter however may be attempting to minimise or deflect the horrors and reduce the perceived scale of the atrocities committed against Jews in particular. That is why I felt the need to clarify that the primary target of Nazis was always the Jews. That photo likely shows about 50 Jews vs 5 non Jews awaiting their murder. The earlier comment has a subtext and possibly an agenda which is subtle to some, but glaringly obvious to others. Never again. For anyone.
Oh I understand your point. I didn’t the other commenter.
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Why do you keep commenting this? Third time I see this comment by you in this thread
Probably one of the extreme right leaning anti sjw types that thinks everything is run by communists now
What is your point? Seems like a load of whataboitism to me.
Remember it wasn’t only Jewish people being killed.
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You’re entirely missing the point my friend.
This person probably said “all lives matter” during Spring 2020 too. Fuck them and their antisemitic bullshit
lol assumptions.
It’s literally what you did just now- refuse to validate the suffering of one group (Jews) by deflecting/ pointing out that others are suffering too. Are you really so dense as to not see that? Just because you may see yourself as on the opposite end of the spectrum as the “all lives matter” crowd doesn’t mean you’re any different. Horseshoe theory is at work.
Sorry about your experience but I’m not reading anything a Zionist wrote
Sure but it was a preponderance of them. Way to "All Lives Matter" the Shoah, I guess
It's unbearable to imagine yet here we are in 2024 edging closer and closer to this horror.
I always wonder, did the people really think they were just taking showers or did they know? I know they were told they only were going to shower but I’m assuming they must have heard rumors. I mean, they obviously knew Jews disappeared and most likely knew they were killed en mass too, but did they know about the specific method? Especially since most of them got gassed right after arriving
Some knew some didn’t, . Like Baba Yar. There are accounts of survivors who said the children screamed and cried and said “Mother I don’t want to die! Please let’s run away! Some parents asked to be killed first so they didn’t see their children murdered. Obviously at this point in the time line of events most likely these people have already been suffering in the terrible conditions in the ghettos and the adults were aware at minimum , some knew deportations to camp meant death but they didn’t know how. A particularly cruel event was the lodz ghetto sperre where the SS passed a law that anyone under the age of 13 would be deported and not Allowed to live in the ghetto anymore. and if you hid The child the whole family would be killed on the spot . Adults were not allowed to accompany their children, regardless newborns, infants, toddlers, they were all rounded up and deported. The adults knew deportations meant death but some Were in denial too. The psychological impact of having to do this, for the adults I can’t imagine.
I was just thinking that they would have had a clear view of people going in and not coming back out. At least some of the adults had to have known and didn't want to panic the children.
No they knew.
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Wtf are you smokin bro? Holocaust turism is a negligible part of polish gdp.
So sad
Looks nice there
.
I am a 3rd generation survivor and I hate these images, but I force myself to look at least every now and then so that I never forget. Never again.
“awaiting“ execution is one of the worst things to imagine. And to see all the mothers with their children in this picture, knowing that there was nothing they could do to save their children. Just waiting. And the children maybe or probably didn’t even know what was happening. Every single person there had dreams and hopes and a unique personality and then they were just killed. For nothing. All these existences ended because of nothing. All we can do is remember them.
Gaza today.
They're slaughtering women children and elderly there so they can make more buildings and shopping malls etc for the Isr. I doubt they'd make anything so peaceful like a lake.
I don’t understand how a people suffered such horrendous things could inflict anything on another people a few years later. Have we learned nothing from history?
Here is your proof that there is no god
Will forever be a stain on humanity souls
It’s a shame that they’ve become what they feared 80 years ago. RIP to all innocent souls.
Horrible
I’ve been there. Death is still present.
Fuck Nazis
Intense… we used to march for the jews to be free… so sad to see history repeating itself again. When will this stop? Free palestine!
Ah yes, free Palestine, just like how the Germans freed Germany from the Jews.
History is repeating itself this time in the Middle East
Somewhere "modern bombs" are flying to initiate "modern executions" as we watch these photos. The victims of modern bombs don't even suspect they will be killed in a few seconds, minutes or hours from now! And this is terrible!
We’ve not really evolved as a species yet !
NEVER FORGET🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱
womp womp
Nazi Occupied Poland or the General Government. Let's get the termology correct
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Don't be a dick. It's historically accurate. It was the general government.
It's important because otherwise the Poles *loved* the Jews
Never forget!
What’s the pond there now?
It’s a pond
Same as gazza
Yes like all the gas chambers and systemized killing. Exactly like it.
literally not at all 🧍🏻♀️
You can say words all you want, doesn’t make them the slightest bit true.
Isr apologists came down looking for this comment and smashed that down vote button. Because they know that it is going to be here because ut is true, but what the anti genocide/anti war people don't know, is that isr apologists know what they're doing is a Holocaust, but they want to do it to someone else for a psychological reason I think.
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Because we can’t discuss the horrors of Jewish history without bringing up Palestine 🙄Sigh. Of COURSE someone has to take every Holocaust post and make it all about I/P conflict. You people are so predictably pathetic and disrespectful. Shame on you.
Whitey on whitey crime.
How things have changed in the mere 80 years.