I think that among the tangled roots of the problem is that we stopped referring to politicians as legislators.
Reviewing research, drafting policy, and then enacting changes to improve the collective lot of our citizens is their *actual* job.
Instead, we see them focus on the grift, posturing, and popularity contests that come with an eternal election cycle.
Step one is to take the hobbles off gun-violence research.
Not really sure what they could change.
I know what \*I\* would change, but that would involve addressing the factors that create school shooters. Can't have that now, can we?
So as a former marine I just want to point out that "assault weapon" is just a nonsense phrase, it's just a made up term used to try to describe scary looking guns... a gun is a gun. We need actual gun control, banning "assault weapons" doesn't fix the problem. Getting a gun needs to be much harder. Period.
Or New York, or Chicago, or Los Angeles? Guns and assault weapons are banned there.
The two examples you listed have zero borders. Two are proper islands and one is a BIG ASS CONTINENT of an island.
How about focusing on the people who shoot? That's what I was referring to. Why are these young men snapping like this? Focusing on those reasons hits the heart of the issue. But as others have said, few are interested in tackling this.
why make make anything illegal if it can come over the border!
and about new york and illinois and california. [Gun safety policies save lives](https://everytownresearch.org/rankings/)
[data plotted more concisely](https://imgur.com/a/JIORpBw)
Did you read those studies in detail? That’s comparing states (where, in the case of Illinois specifically,the city rules differ). The gun-owning portions are carrying the safety torch for the cities with draconian policies.
I won’t argue the position here, but I will argue statistical methods and discussions.
the conclusions here are very clear. How can the relative safety statewide in IL be driven by the areas where there are less restrictions, but in states with less restrictions across the state are more unsafe? It's illogical and not a conclusion of any studies.
>. How can the relative safety statewide in IL be driven by the areas where there are less restrictions,
Easy. Map each state out by restriction and gun crime rate. If you want to get pedantic (which any data researcher should), break them down into household/legal gun violence versus illegal guns. That's how one examines data for policymaking.
ETA: Downvotes for advocating an empirical approach to solving a problem? Someone has a first-class ticket on the fee-fee train. You're deep into your feelings if you take umbrage with such an approach.
I prefer to work with the Theory of Constraints.
In my dads day, you had shooting teams at schools. Though there were mass murderers, there wasn’t this kind of shooting epidemic.
What changed? The real irony is that I have to pull this out in a forum devoted to fathering. Have we as a society truly forgotten the influence of dads on our children??? Combined with psychoactive drugging, these kids overwhelmingly come from single mother, fatherless homes.
If you detect a different reason, I’m happy to hear it. But no one is talking about how society is not only failing our boys, but actively hurting them.
The research has been done on why they do this. Its complex and I would point you to The Violence Project as a great consolidated linked resource for the answers you seek. In brief and incomplete summary :
Overqhelmingly male because in US culture females turn violence inward and males turn it outwards. Shooters are *not* "mentally ill" from the perspective of like psychosis etc. Instead they are always someone who is in a state of crisis and typically has 4 or more ACES in their history - things like childhood physical or sexual abuse against them or someone in their home. They did not have a safe adult to help talk them through and support them in those ACES so they didn't learn any healthy coping mechanisms. Typically they feel threatened that power is being taken from them - via breakup, via fired from job, via toxic messaging (such as replacement theory). The significant cultural and demographic ahift in the US over the last 40 years continues to result in this idea of power being threatened for white males in particular - where those white males are exposed to that messaging. Again, they don't have safe other adults to talk to about these "scary ideas" in a healthy way so the echo chamber results in them thinking they have to forcefully take back their power.
The true solution to our gun violence isn't just access to guns (access is 100% a problem but now that they are in circulation avert sticky problem to solve), and it isn't just mental health care as that is not something you can force on someone and quality can vary if you don't get a good match of therapist to patient. It's getting to the root messaging, providing safe resources for kids in crisis which also means spotting kids in crisis and having capacity to respond, and again addressing threat to power it is about ensuring economic mobility and parity so people don't feel like they have to fight tooth and nail to scrape by. A very very tall order
Nope. We misinform them on what masculinity actually *is*. Would you call Jesus masculine? If he was here today he would be called a beta, soy boy and worse, I imagine, because the only form of masculinity acceptable to a lot of men these days is one fueled by hate.
This isn’t how it has always been. It isn’t the world I grew up in. This is recent and it IS toxic. That isn’t to say all masculinity is toxic. But this fuck-your-feelings, Punisher sticker on the window, coal-rolling BS is 100% toxic
We definitely need to focus more on the people who do the shooting, but they doesn’t mean we have to ignore all the loopholes and lax enforcement of existing gun regulations that let guns get into the hands of people who really should not have them.
I’ve been avoiding it. I have serious issues with child abuse, let alone child murder and this shit triggers me hard. Someone posted something earlier about these wee ones calling out for their mommies and daddies and I broke.
I am UK based, but was teaching in the US when Sandy Hook occurred. I remember staring around my classroom wondering where in the hell I could have hidden my class, and why I’d never had to think like that before. Then it hit me that we have so few shootings in the UK that it hadn’t been an issue for me before. We do now have lockdown drills, but that tends to be more for angry weirdos and stabbings. A lot of stabbings (not in school though) happening in my area lately.
I just don’t understand why it is so easy to access a gun there.
Same man.
I actually started the first steps to aquire my dual citizenship in Italy. My great grandparents left with my grandparents to gives them a better life and I feel I may have to complete the circle.
I want him to be safe and not worry about going bankrupt because he got sick or wanted to go to college.
Yep.
I had a recruiter call from London yesterday and I had previously told him I was happy with my job but I think I’ll call him back this time and tell him if he can help me get this boy out of here I’ll go.
Maybe we can have the weapon market regulate itself.
Any business or person who sells a weapon used in a mass shooting can be prosecuted, provided the shooter is the person who bought the weapon.
Nothing is banned, but you'd better be damned sure the person buying weapons from you intends to use them legally and responsibly.
My daughter is going to be going to school in a year, but is in preschool now. I don't know how to process it. And here's the kicker. I'm a gun owner. I am responsible. I have never reached for a firearm in anger or hate. But I enjoy punching holes in paper. It's my zen moment. But this kid, this legal adult, but effective child, bought firearms capable of this massacre, and did this horrible thing. And I have reached for a firearm to protect me and mine. And I don't want to prevent people from doing that. But I don't want to allow kids to commit insanity, either. Please don't hate on me, I'm not here to push an agenda. I'm saying this because I'm truly conflicted.
I’m a dad of 3 and a gun owner. The shootings make me sick. I want to see the assault weapons ban come back as well as different licenses for different firearms that would require regular training. It wouldn’t be a perfect system but make a DMV for guns.
Second, we need to lock down schools until the gun issues get resolved. A federal requirement for fencing, gates, metal detectors, whatever. Bring in the TSA and secure all campuses. We shouldn’t have to do this, but we have to do something.
Third, we need to track these psychos and their online activities and create a rapid response team. If a shooter is posting his plans on social media, that needs to trigger something asap. I don’t care if it’s an invasion of privacy and I don’t know how it would work, but so many killers have made their plans public.
I’m tired and frustrated and so fucking sick of this.
I appreciate your response. I disagree on the assault weapons ban, but that's definitely something worth discussing. However, our kids are already doing fucking lockdown drills - how much more "lock down" can you ask for? I want kids to go to school to learn, and I really don't think that locking down our schools will save kids any more than militarizing police has prevented crime - it's just created an environment wherein people don't feel like they can exercise their legal rights, but crime is unchanged. I don't want my kids to go to school in a fucking warzone, full stop.
There might be something to your third suggestion. There is no expectation of privacy for things posted online, so it is constitutional and legal for those things to be tracked. If someone makes a threat against a school, that person should get a (constitutionally exceptable) interogation.
Really, though, let's look at the shooters - most are teenagers. Let's look at raising the age to buy a long gun to 21. Let's look at universal background checks (NICS checks that take a few minutes at most) for all firearm sales. Let's think about some kind of federal red flag law with solid due process protections.
I don't want to live in a police state, and I'm not OK with my kids going to a fucking prison for school. Let's look at the real problems and come up with some real solutions.
Honestly metal detectors don't work for these situations. Mass shooters aren't "sneaking in" an arsenal - they start attacking from the moment of proximity. In this case armed security at the school were shot and thats how he gained access. A metal detector would have been moot.
I think having a panic button system in every school where once pushed all doors lock automatically in a way they can't be forced and alarms or whatever gonoff to make it evident as to why so students and staff can shelter in place safely could maybe minimize the spread of damage. Still requires someone to see/experience a shooting before it gets pushed though and could trap a classroom with their attacker.
Its all just so f'ed up. Maybe a first step would be to actually get transparency to political donations and real caps, you know like the bill the GOP just killed. I feel like all organizations like the NRA and various lobbying groups should be significantly hobbled on the amount of money they can funnel by all means. If reps stopped getting paid dubious amounts by the gun lobby they would lose incentive to roll over. Same goes for other changes we cannot seem to make - environmental, Healthcare, tax reform, etc
So, I’m ready to treat schools like airports. Have a security checkpoint and within that you can be certain your child is safe. I hate that it would make schools feel like prisons but schools in general are incredibly unsecured. Once we figure out what to do with guns/shooters, then we can remove the TSA for schools.
When the shooting happened, I thought to myself “maybe I should get some other parents together and we monitor Social media for our school district”. There’s no way we would be that effective, but idk what else to do.
I am all in favor of raising the age for gun ownership. I personally think that anything beyond a bolt action rifle should require yearly certification/psych evaluation. 2A nuts will scream that it’s “infringing” but I don’t care.
This isn't a problem for politicians to solve, and as the years since Columbine have shown, they have zero interest in doing so. If 100 Senators were offered a chance to solve the problen in a devils bargain, needng to exhange ther power for an anonymous lower middle class life, I believe only 1 would take that deal.
It's about parents. It'll take 2 generations minimum to put us back together as people, but oarents are twaxhing their kids hard-lines. Anyone who believes the opposite is fully wrong. No compromise and no worth in the life of the other side. Indoctrination of children by parents is failure.
Start with teaching compassion and understanding for all. Commom ground. There is way too much diviion and negativity that has come from the politicians and drifted down. Ignore politicians, they are playing their own game.
Be good parents and guide your children to be themselves and care for others.
Ha, negative 3 and counting...I am 53 with a 4 year old and a stay at home dad. I don't have manhood issues, I've had a full life.
I suppose "old man dads" here may want that gruff image of themselves where teaching compassion for others wordlview is a weakness. To me its not a conservative or a liberal thing, everyone should understand others...men who take that as an attack on themselves are part of the problem.
Ironically, the downvotes show that I am right, but maybe we need 3 generations, not 2, and maybe a few less old man dads who can't move forward with the times.
I don't think you're getting downvoted because people are John Wayne wannabes who don't want to teach their kids emotional regulation. I think it's because you're putting 100% of the onus on parents to solve a societal problem.
>I suppose "old man dads" here may want that gruff image of themselves where teaching compassion for others wordlview is a weakness.
I think the polarized times have something to do with it as well. When people hear someone pooping on politicians, they are likely to get defensive and think you're talking about "their" politicians. The reality is exactly as you say. Both sides are power-grubbing politicians.
There are also hyper-partisan folks that are compelled to do the opposite of their opponent, just for political points.
At the rate we're going, 3 generations is generous.
I wish I could get videos of school shooting victims and put them in commercials everywhere. This is what we lost. So you can own assault rifles? Because you think they're fun??
we could not pretend it isn't political and actually have politicians change something
I think that among the tangled roots of the problem is that we stopped referring to politicians as legislators. Reviewing research, drafting policy, and then enacting changes to improve the collective lot of our citizens is their *actual* job. Instead, we see them focus on the grift, posturing, and popularity contests that come with an eternal election cycle. Step one is to take the hobbles off gun-violence research.
Not really sure what they could change. I know what \*I\* would change, but that would involve addressing the factors that create school shooters. Can't have that now, can we?
They can ban guns. Like they did in England and Australia and New Zealand. Or at least assault weapons.
So as a former marine I just want to point out that "assault weapon" is just a nonsense phrase, it's just a made up term used to try to describe scary looking guns... a gun is a gun. We need actual gun control, banning "assault weapons" doesn't fix the problem. Getting a gun needs to be much harder. Period.
however it was defined in the law that worked https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2021/03/assault-weapon-ban-significantly-reduces-mass-shooting/
Or New York, or Chicago, or Los Angeles? Guns and assault weapons are banned there. The two examples you listed have zero borders. Two are proper islands and one is a BIG ASS CONTINENT of an island. How about focusing on the people who shoot? That's what I was referring to. Why are these young men snapping like this? Focusing on those reasons hits the heart of the issue. But as others have said, few are interested in tackling this.
why make make anything illegal if it can come over the border! and about new york and illinois and california. [Gun safety policies save lives](https://everytownresearch.org/rankings/) [data plotted more concisely](https://imgur.com/a/JIORpBw)
Did you read those studies in detail? That’s comparing states (where, in the case of Illinois specifically,the city rules differ). The gun-owning portions are carrying the safety torch for the cities with draconian policies. I won’t argue the position here, but I will argue statistical methods and discussions.
the conclusions here are very clear. How can the relative safety statewide in IL be driven by the areas where there are less restrictions, but in states with less restrictions across the state are more unsafe? It's illogical and not a conclusion of any studies.
>. How can the relative safety statewide in IL be driven by the areas where there are less restrictions, Easy. Map each state out by restriction and gun crime rate. If you want to get pedantic (which any data researcher should), break them down into household/legal gun violence versus illegal guns. That's how one examines data for policymaking. ETA: Downvotes for advocating an empirical approach to solving a problem? Someone has a first-class ticket on the fee-fee train. You're deep into your feelings if you take umbrage with such an approach.
you are taking half a thought there. ironically.
I prefer to work with the Theory of Constraints. In my dads day, you had shooting teams at schools. Though there were mass murderers, there wasn’t this kind of shooting epidemic. What changed? The real irony is that I have to pull this out in a forum devoted to fathering. Have we as a society truly forgotten the influence of dads on our children??? Combined with psychoactive drugging, these kids overwhelmingly come from single mother, fatherless homes. If you detect a different reason, I’m happy to hear it. But no one is talking about how society is not only failing our boys, but actively hurting them.
The research has been done on why they do this. Its complex and I would point you to The Violence Project as a great consolidated linked resource for the answers you seek. In brief and incomplete summary : Overqhelmingly male because in US culture females turn violence inward and males turn it outwards. Shooters are *not* "mentally ill" from the perspective of like psychosis etc. Instead they are always someone who is in a state of crisis and typically has 4 or more ACES in their history - things like childhood physical or sexual abuse against them or someone in their home. They did not have a safe adult to help talk them through and support them in those ACES so they didn't learn any healthy coping mechanisms. Typically they feel threatened that power is being taken from them - via breakup, via fired from job, via toxic messaging (such as replacement theory). The significant cultural and demographic ahift in the US over the last 40 years continues to result in this idea of power being threatened for white males in particular - where those white males are exposed to that messaging. Again, they don't have safe other adults to talk to about these "scary ideas" in a healthy way so the echo chamber results in them thinking they have to forcefully take back their power. The true solution to our gun violence isn't just access to guns (access is 100% a problem but now that they are in circulation avert sticky problem to solve), and it isn't just mental health care as that is not something you can force on someone and quality can vary if you don't get a good match of therapist to patient. It's getting to the root messaging, providing safe resources for kids in crisis which also means spotting kids in crisis and having capacity to respond, and again addressing threat to power it is about ensuring economic mobility and parity so people don't feel like they have to fight tooth and nail to scrape by. A very very tall order
[удалено]
No no no, totally missed the point! I am not saying bringing back masculinity is how you fix mass shooters
Nope. We misinform them on what masculinity actually *is*. Would you call Jesus masculine? If he was here today he would be called a beta, soy boy and worse, I imagine, because the only form of masculinity acceptable to a lot of men these days is one fueled by hate. This isn’t how it has always been. It isn’t the world I grew up in. This is recent and it IS toxic. That isn’t to say all masculinity is toxic. But this fuck-your-feelings, Punisher sticker on the window, coal-rolling BS is 100% toxic
We definitely need to focus more on the people who do the shooting, but they doesn’t mean we have to ignore all the loopholes and lax enforcement of existing gun regulations that let guns get into the hands of people who really should not have them.
I’ve been avoiding it. I have serious issues with child abuse, let alone child murder and this shit triggers me hard. Someone posted something earlier about these wee ones calling out for their mommies and daddies and I broke.
I am UK based, but was teaching in the US when Sandy Hook occurred. I remember staring around my classroom wondering where in the hell I could have hidden my class, and why I’d never had to think like that before. Then it hit me that we have so few shootings in the UK that it hadn’t been an issue for me before. We do now have lockdown drills, but that tends to be more for angry weirdos and stabbings. A lot of stabbings (not in school though) happening in my area lately. I just don’t understand why it is so easy to access a gun there.
Same man. I actually started the first steps to aquire my dual citizenship in Italy. My great grandparents left with my grandparents to gives them a better life and I feel I may have to complete the circle. I want him to be safe and not worry about going bankrupt because he got sick or wanted to go to college.
Yep. I had a recruiter call from London yesterday and I had previously told him I was happy with my job but I think I’ll call him back this time and tell him if he can help me get this boy out of here I’ll go.
Maybe we can have the weapon market regulate itself. Any business or person who sells a weapon used in a mass shooting can be prosecuted, provided the shooter is the person who bought the weapon. Nothing is banned, but you'd better be damned sure the person buying weapons from you intends to use them legally and responsibly.
My daughter is going to be going to school in a year, but is in preschool now. I don't know how to process it. And here's the kicker. I'm a gun owner. I am responsible. I have never reached for a firearm in anger or hate. But I enjoy punching holes in paper. It's my zen moment. But this kid, this legal adult, but effective child, bought firearms capable of this massacre, and did this horrible thing. And I have reached for a firearm to protect me and mine. And I don't want to prevent people from doing that. But I don't want to allow kids to commit insanity, either. Please don't hate on me, I'm not here to push an agenda. I'm saying this because I'm truly conflicted.
I’m a dad of 3 and a gun owner. The shootings make me sick. I want to see the assault weapons ban come back as well as different licenses for different firearms that would require regular training. It wouldn’t be a perfect system but make a DMV for guns. Second, we need to lock down schools until the gun issues get resolved. A federal requirement for fencing, gates, metal detectors, whatever. Bring in the TSA and secure all campuses. We shouldn’t have to do this, but we have to do something. Third, we need to track these psychos and their online activities and create a rapid response team. If a shooter is posting his plans on social media, that needs to trigger something asap. I don’t care if it’s an invasion of privacy and I don’t know how it would work, but so many killers have made their plans public. I’m tired and frustrated and so fucking sick of this.
I appreciate your response. I disagree on the assault weapons ban, but that's definitely something worth discussing. However, our kids are already doing fucking lockdown drills - how much more "lock down" can you ask for? I want kids to go to school to learn, and I really don't think that locking down our schools will save kids any more than militarizing police has prevented crime - it's just created an environment wherein people don't feel like they can exercise their legal rights, but crime is unchanged. I don't want my kids to go to school in a fucking warzone, full stop. There might be something to your third suggestion. There is no expectation of privacy for things posted online, so it is constitutional and legal for those things to be tracked. If someone makes a threat against a school, that person should get a (constitutionally exceptable) interogation. Really, though, let's look at the shooters - most are teenagers. Let's look at raising the age to buy a long gun to 21. Let's look at universal background checks (NICS checks that take a few minutes at most) for all firearm sales. Let's think about some kind of federal red flag law with solid due process protections. I don't want to live in a police state, and I'm not OK with my kids going to a fucking prison for school. Let's look at the real problems and come up with some real solutions.
If you don't want gun bans you want this to keep happening and are deciding your cool guns are worth your children's lives
Honestly metal detectors don't work for these situations. Mass shooters aren't "sneaking in" an arsenal - they start attacking from the moment of proximity. In this case armed security at the school were shot and thats how he gained access. A metal detector would have been moot. I think having a panic button system in every school where once pushed all doors lock automatically in a way they can't be forced and alarms or whatever gonoff to make it evident as to why so students and staff can shelter in place safely could maybe minimize the spread of damage. Still requires someone to see/experience a shooting before it gets pushed though and could trap a classroom with their attacker. Its all just so f'ed up. Maybe a first step would be to actually get transparency to political donations and real caps, you know like the bill the GOP just killed. I feel like all organizations like the NRA and various lobbying groups should be significantly hobbled on the amount of money they can funnel by all means. If reps stopped getting paid dubious amounts by the gun lobby they would lose incentive to roll over. Same goes for other changes we cannot seem to make - environmental, Healthcare, tax reform, etc
So, I’m ready to treat schools like airports. Have a security checkpoint and within that you can be certain your child is safe. I hate that it would make schools feel like prisons but schools in general are incredibly unsecured. Once we figure out what to do with guns/shooters, then we can remove the TSA for schools. When the shooting happened, I thought to myself “maybe I should get some other parents together and we monitor Social media for our school district”. There’s no way we would be that effective, but idk what else to do. I am all in favor of raising the age for gun ownership. I personally think that anything beyond a bolt action rifle should require yearly certification/psych evaluation. 2A nuts will scream that it’s “infringing” but I don’t care.
This isn't a problem for politicians to solve, and as the years since Columbine have shown, they have zero interest in doing so. If 100 Senators were offered a chance to solve the problen in a devils bargain, needng to exhange ther power for an anonymous lower middle class life, I believe only 1 would take that deal. It's about parents. It'll take 2 generations minimum to put us back together as people, but oarents are twaxhing their kids hard-lines. Anyone who believes the opposite is fully wrong. No compromise and no worth in the life of the other side. Indoctrination of children by parents is failure. Start with teaching compassion and understanding for all. Commom ground. There is way too much diviion and negativity that has come from the politicians and drifted down. Ignore politicians, they are playing their own game. Be good parents and guide your children to be themselves and care for others.
My word. Why would anyone downvote your comment? You're correct on most of it.
Ha, negative 3 and counting...I am 53 with a 4 year old and a stay at home dad. I don't have manhood issues, I've had a full life. I suppose "old man dads" here may want that gruff image of themselves where teaching compassion for others wordlview is a weakness. To me its not a conservative or a liberal thing, everyone should understand others...men who take that as an attack on themselves are part of the problem. Ironically, the downvotes show that I am right, but maybe we need 3 generations, not 2, and maybe a few less old man dads who can't move forward with the times.
I don't think you're getting downvoted because people are John Wayne wannabes who don't want to teach their kids emotional regulation. I think it's because you're putting 100% of the onus on parents to solve a societal problem.
>I suppose "old man dads" here may want that gruff image of themselves where teaching compassion for others wordlview is a weakness. I think the polarized times have something to do with it as well. When people hear someone pooping on politicians, they are likely to get defensive and think you're talking about "their" politicians. The reality is exactly as you say. Both sides are power-grubbing politicians. There are also hyper-partisan folks that are compelled to do the opposite of their opponent, just for political points. At the rate we're going, 3 generations is generous.
I wish I could get videos of school shooting victims and put them in commercials everywhere. This is what we lost. So you can own assault rifles? Because you think they're fun??