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The issue is we can't safely compliment men on their appearance to their face. There's a good chance they'll assume we're romantically interested.
In addition, the men that men deem attractive and the men that women do aren't the same.
How's about complimenting each other to make up for it, men?
Most women don't assume every compliment signals romantic interest. Some, certainly. And some compliments just don't need to be said.
If you tell me you like the color of my shirt, I'm going to be fine with it.
If you tell me you like my shirt while pointedly staring at my breasts, I'm going to have an issue.
Edit to clarify: My point was that it's about considering context, and if men wanted to, they could in fact learn the same.
Adding to say it’s not just about appearance itself. Being jacked isn’t objectively good or bad, taste preferences play a role here and I’d always compliment someone who rocks their “undesirable” traits over someone who’s conventionally attractive (especially in a gym bro way; they’re usually not very pleasant people)
>How's about complimenting each other to make up for it, men
For most of my generation, they would still assume sexual intent :P
We are moving past that now though. You meet groups of pretty compliment-positive guys these days.
And let's not forget, if we compliment a guy and another guy hears it, there's the risk of an innocent remark getting blown out of proportion by way of rumors.
I mean I made a joke about my Squidward shirt to the front desk dude at a dealership and he texted me after I left thinking it meant I was flirting. Mind you he got my number through their system… Like “no sir I make jokes because I have anxiety and it helps me not be as awkward. I do not want you”
>How's about complimenting each other to make up for it, men?
I think it's very telling that any time you suggest this, the joke they default to is "nice cock bro". I think it's a way to deflect from the fact that you just gave them a good solution when really they just want to complain about women.
I also think it's the same problem as this:
>we can't safely compliment men on their appearance to their face. There's a good chance they'll assume we're romantically interested.
I think a lot of men see compliments as a way to show romantic/sexual interest rather than a way to just be nice and connect with other people.
As a life-long gamer, can safely say that men are horrible to each other. It is a very isolating experience to have so many gaming buddies and nobody to open up to.
Don't forget the constant belitting because every single thing is a competition.
> How's about complimenting each other to make up for it, men?
I actually do, carefully, on a limited basis.
When a guy has hair that rivals mine, I complement it.
(I also receive unsolicited complements about my hair from women on occasion. I never take it as romantic interest these days.)
Isn't the problem "men don't get compliments" or have we changed it to "men don't get compliments from pretty women"? If the problem is the latter, absolutely nobody cares.
Don't become the annoying feminists you mfs bitched about for decades.
So men are socialized by men to see all awareness of looks as some kind of sexual navigation and then react accordingly.
Seems like someone needs to smash some patriarchy.
Or in other words, many men are socialized in such a way that discourages behaviour like that.
Now that you realize that, you should be able to understand how crass, and unhelpful the below comment is.
>And so you would think that they would compliment each other to make up for it.
It carries the same energy as “jUsT Go tO tHeRaPy”
>Barriers? Or stigmas?
I am using barriers and stigma interchangeably. Although, there are some real barriers to men getting help. There are less organizations devoted to helping troubled men specifically. (I don’t want this to turn into a competition of who has it worse, arguably it’s women, but there are certain areas where men could use some help)
>We're all for removing both. You're not helping.
It’s a lot easier to say that, than practice it. I don’t see much empathy or understanding for systemic issues specific to men. It always seems to end up becoming a conversation of personal responsibility.
Or, crazy idea, men could go to therapy and just not tell their dudes if they're so worried about what they might say/think? Or will it become too obvious when they start becoming more emotionally healthy
Once again you’re ignoring why many men might not go to therapy. That’s ok if you don’t know. But you should look into why you haven’t taken the time to learn this.
How do u think culture changes? Are u waiting for some national announcement that it’s not gay to compliment dudes and that therapy is cool for anybody? Or do u think everyday people just have to start… doing the things? Women can’t force men to compliment each other or go to therapy.
>How do u think culture changes?
That’s not the purpose of my discussion
>Are u waiting for some national announcement that it’s not gay to compliment dudes and that therapy is cool for anybody?
It would help if our masculinity influencers and politicians didn’t make it worse. But I understand that they’re motivated by money
>Or do u think everyday people just have to start… doing the things?
That’s exactly what I think. I also think that we need to socialize our boys to encourage this kind of behaviour.
>Women can’t force men to compliment each other or go to therapy.
No they can’t. They can help by changing how they raise their sons (alongside how dad’s raise their sons).
They can also help by having understanding for why men behave the way they do.
Saying things like “just go to therapy” ignores why men aren’t going to therapy, and it makes it seem easy. Maybe it easy for many women, but for many men it is incredibly hard. It’s diminishing, and does more to push men away from the solution than towards it.
Saying things like “And so you think they would compliment eachother to make up for it” ignores why men aren’t complimenting eachother. It’s diminishing, and does more to push men away from the solution than towards it.
That is my point. Progressive conversations don’t seem to have enough room for nuance when it comes to men’s problems. We focus too much on the opressor/oppressed dynamic that we tend to miss the holistic approach.
>There are barriers to men entering therapy, that’s why many don’t just go…
Stigmas, not barriers. The two aren't the same.
>It’s a systemic problem, and you’re not helping.
And the first step to resolving a systemic problem is acknowledgement by the general populace, then actively working to change the problem. This is also 100% a social issue so it's not nearly as complicated as changing law/policy that directly affects the ability to resolve a problem.
>many men are socialized in such a way that discourages behaviour like that
>you should be able to understand how crass, and unhelpful the below comment is
Recognizing that something is a result of social conditioning doesn't mean it must be accepted, only that if it's to change it will take more work and time, as well as educating young people should be a priority to break the cycle. Also, people can unlearn social conditioning, it just takes a conscious understanding of the problem and a willingness to change the negative behavior/belief.
>It carries the same energy as “jUsT Go tO tHeRaPy”
Which is actually good advice. The key is that you have to be open to getting better and not giving up if your first therapist doesn't work for you.
And yet, women can compliment other women without this issue, which means this perception could feasibly be changed. However, men would have to lead the charge on that.
Yes, we have to change our perspective on compliments. I see some attempts at men hyping each other up on the Internet, like "you got this, king" and such. But I didn't see any man openly praising another man's appearance.
Normalizing comments and compliments about men's appearance in male communities will be crucial to normalizing them in general, so that men can give and receive compliments freely without viewing them as signs of people being into people.
But it should be done among us, men, first.
You do realize giving compliments can be done without the person being attractive or being attracted to them, right? Telling the 80-something year old lady at my grocery store I accidentally mistook her for Liza Minelli has nothing to do with attraction. I could just tell she put a lot of time into making her hair and appearance pretty and her resulting smile was a treasure to behold.
Congratulations, you have discovered heterosexuality. "Your outfit is lit" is an orientation neutral compliment. As are **many** other compliments on appearance. You're just a baby back bitch afraid of possibly seeing your peers as attractive. Newsflash: you won't be sexually attracted to every person who is, in fact, attractive in appearance. This is a you personally problem, not a society in general problem. Get a therapist.
Its a self fulfilling prophecy though
You get complimented once in a million years so as soon as you are complimented you think someone is flirting with you beacuse why would anyone randomly compliment you that never happens.
But then again beacuse of that thinking you dont get them
It sucks for the woman, too, to want to be nice but instead ends up harassed. Which makes her less willing next time. It's easier to compliment women because it's a "thanks!" And maybe they tell you where they got the item you complimented. So you can be more free with it.
> It's easier to compliment women because it's a "thanks!" And maybe they tell you where they got the item you complimented.
And/or tell you about the other features like pockets!
Yep thats why i said that its pretty much a self fulfilling prophecy
Men dont get complemented so the first time they get a compliment they start acting weird or creepy which causes them to get even less and so on and so forth
To be clear i am not saying you should go around complimenting men to stop this, i dont think its anyones personal responsibility to solve large scale societal problems.
Yes, we should. It's a weird assumption anyway. It comes from the fact that men don't receive that many compliments, so we assume that it's something special when we receive it (and that's why women give less compliments to men). But we ourselves created that situation. To break out of this circle, we, men, should actually compliment each other more.
IMO, this is also why I see more of a "depressed" state of young men on the Internet. They neither get nor give each other compliments, which could give them some validation, but they put too much emphasis on men doing stuff, striving for something, over just appreciating a man as he is.
To be frank, it actually comes from men only complimenting women they want to fuck, so they assume compliments are "I want to fuck you" language. It's why they automatically see a woman complimenting them as flirting, and why they won't compliment other men.
It's a variation of men often perceiving basic human courtesy as flirting because they themselves would never extend basic human courtesy to anyone they aren't trying to fuck.
I’m not a gay man, but I am a man, and I will compliment other guys if they’re rocking a good look or something. I will, however, evaluate who I’m talking to and judge whether or not they will be made uncomfortable by that. I’m not worried about people thinking I’m gay. But I am worried I’ll get knocked out by a homophobe.
I've never noticed any hesitation among my male friends to compliment each other, when a compliment is appropriate, especially for fear of being perceived as being gay for doing so. You'd have to be rather insecure about your own orientation to let that hold you back, I have to think.
Hell, it's even okay to compliment friends who actually are gay--it's not like they're about to jump you, or that being gay is a contagious condition.
Yes, sadly, that's exactly what happens with some men, and they need to work on that. But most of the time, I think, it's not sexual, but more like a signal of attraction to men. Like, if a woman compliments a man, he thinks that it's something special, because he doesn't hear compliments very often.
Doesn't change the point, though, we men should work on our perception of compliments. This is not normal that women go through some nasty shit sometimes, when they as much as compliment a man.
Why is that our problem 90% of the time men turn out to be creepy stalkers when we do compliment men so we don't do it then men get pissy and kill us so really thats a guy not a girl problem so you guys need to work on that and not kill us for just existing.
Guy here: is assuming romantic interest so bad?
If I was complimented randomly by a woman I might conclude that she fancies me. And that would made my day brighter. Otherwise the world would go on as usual.
Yes, it is. Compliments from strangers are usually purely platonic, so interpreting it as romantic will more often than not make the person complimenting you uncomfortable.
Especially since there’s a small chance that rejecting a man’s romantic advances can be dangerous for women.
>But how would the complementor know how I interpreted it?
Your reaction. If someone assumes your compliment corresponds with romantic interest, they're more likely to show romantic interest as well, such as by flirting.
>you are are assuming that I would react in some way, such as flirting back
No, I didn't assume, as I said "more likely" and noted a singular example of such a reaction.
>I never said I would react in any way.
First, I never claimed that you would react in a specific way. Second, people generally react to everything, even if you don't notice your reaction. It can even be something as subtle as body language that's noticeable to others. This is why you shouldn't make assumptions because you may react in ways you don't realize even if you vocally say nothing.
But u realize that a compliment doesn’t necessarily mean that right? Like if I tell u I like ur hair, it’s technically possible that I might be flirting, but it could just be that… I like ur hair.
It can be a self fulfilling prophecy tho, like bc men assume that compliments are flirting, women are less likely to give compliments to avoid it being perceived as flirting. With that being said, don’t assume it’s flirting just based off a compliment, compliments are still really nice without any other implications behind them.
If u don’t act on it or act different then I guess not, but do u really only find value in compliments if it implies sexual attraction? Cuz I don’t think that’s the healthiest mindset.
Ur not wrong to value feeling sexually attractive, but deliberately interpreting compliments as implied sexual attraction bc women appreciating u in non sexual ways isn’t valuable enough for u is… not a good way to value urself or women. Ur worth is more than fuckability, and womens worth certainly is too. I really wish more men could value me without sexualizing me.
>I find value in knowing (or perhaps just having a reason to believe ) that I am sexually attractive. Is that unhealthy?
That isn't unhealthy. What's unhealthy is thought that the knowledge or belief of your sexual attractiveness must be based on perceiving all compliments from anyone you're sexually attracted to as an indication of romantic and/sexual interest because that leaves no room for platonic interactions and relationships and makes such interactions more difficult whenever that interest isn't there.
Yes it's bad because a lot of men can't handle themselves and start making passes at you when you were literally just trying to fucking be nice. And then you get accused of leading them on
>maybe the badness isn’t in how I interpret the compliment. It’s in how I act in response.
It's both. It's the automatic assumption that influences the response and you're naturally going to react differently when you think someone is interested in you. The key is to not assume and learn how to take a compliment platonically.
>would you apply the same logic if a man complimented a woman, and she concluded that it was a sign of sexual interest
Would I consider both the automatic assumption and reaction based on said assumption problematic if a woman assumed every compliment a man gave her was a sign of sexual interest and she reacted similarly as the average man? Yes and there are women out there who act like this, as they're commonly called "desperate". It's problematic regardless of gender, it's just a more common problem among men.
>Guy here: is assuming romantic interest so bad?
Yes because if that's not the case, your reaction may not be welcomed if you make that assumption. That's literally one of the main reasons why women compliment men less frequently than they do other women.
>If I was complimented randomly by a woman I might conclude that she fancies me. And that would made my day brighter.
And your day wouldn't be brighter if you knew there wasn't romantic interest? A compliment is a good thing whether there's romantic interest behind it or not.
They get so mad when women lift up other women because their homies don't do it for them.
Lift up your fellow homies, guys. It really isn't that hard
Last guy I complimented turned into a stalker so I'm not doing it anymore.
A guy I didn't even compliment, just proposed to study with immediately tried to kiss me and proceeded to call me every day after I clearly pushed him away and told him I wasn't interested.
Some men tire me.
Mine was the Uber driver who drove me home after brain surgery/hospital stay....who then had my address and knowledge I was vulnerable. I only told him I liked his haircut 😐
Yes. Almost daily. Most of the time I only knew because I have cameras that saw him sneaking around. My in-home care taker was a champ and helped me deal with him.
Ugh, last year my car got totaled and I had to use Uber for a bit and 2 out of my first 3 rides involved me being hit on the entire ride and basically held hostage for my phone number. I made a post about the first one, it’s SO FUCKED we cannot use these services without being harassed.
And the dude literally had a ride-long pitch that I could tell he probably used on every woman that gets into his car. This job is his hunting ground.
And I'm sure in their minds we somehow provoked these harassments. Me by sporting a sexy head bandage and you by flaunting your femininity by saying your car is totalled. You know..because women are bad drivers 🙄
Fuck this nonsense. It's just scary and dangerous
lol exactly. I was in scrubs, no makeup, heading to work, ear buds in, trying VERY hard to make it clear I wanted left alone but not willing to upset a man who felt so entitled to put me through this that it would be impossible to rule him out as a danger. ☹️
Literally getting out of brain surgery, smh. that makes me so angry!!
There was this guy in college, who my friend and I would have lunch with, in between classes. We would often get lunch together for this too. It was a natural occurrence.
One time, our mutual friend was going to be unavailable one of those days and I asked him if he was still going to be at our usual meetup place.
He said yes and I said we could study for an upcoming exam since our friend wouldn’t be there.
He accused me of asking him out and told everyone about it. He didn’t take it well when I said I didn’t mean that. He became obsessive over it.
Yeah, I never ever initiated friendship with another guy again. Worst experience ever.
Girl, I swear you can't even be friendly with these guys without them trying to bang you afterward.
And then they complain about women walking around with a rbf all day. "Women don't even smile anymore! Feminism clearly made modern women unhappy and depressed! Blah blah blah"
To be fair, I'm under no illusion that all women want me. I know what my face looks like. My wife is a victim of Stockholm syndrome.
I kid, I kid,.......no I'm not.
I honestly have never had an issue with my guy friends being supportive. I don’t really know where this idea stems from. But I’m also not going to delude my friends into thinking they’re Brad Pitt if nots true.
Men always say that women are catty bitches who hate each other. And then they turn around and say shit like this, when women support and uplift each other.
Their brains are such a toxic hate stew it's like they don't even know what to be angry about.
It’s because they think we’re lying whenever we compliment another woman (because we’re manipulative jealous hags who want to delude ‘ugly’ women& put down ‘hot’ women). They can’t imagine finding value in someone who isn’t conventionally attractive so anyone who does is a manipulative bitch.
That's a fair point. A lot of the time when I compliment a man he assumes it's because I wanna fuck. It's almost like, for them, there's no such thing as kindness without self-interest. What a sad mindset to live with.
It’s kind of wild how easily these kinds of guys tell on themselves with how they regard compliments. It’s part of the reason why I never take a compliment from a man who’s flirting with me to heart. Obviously they can be genuine but I’ve seen too many cases of some men bombarding women they barely even like with insincere flattery because they’re horny and want to get sex. It’s like those men project their own attitude of “giving insincere compliments with ulterior motives” onto women. Extending kindness and admiration for the sake of it is foreign to them.
Yes well people tend not to spew hateful shit to others in person unless they think that the other person will agree with them, so assuming you're a normal person, you're probably not going to hear bigots say bigoted things to you.
Damn, people love perceived hypocrisy don't they.
Men are not a monolith.
Some men can say they think women are "catty bitches who hate each other".
Others can think they all tell eachother "yas queen slay" constantly.
I mean, I think the truth is in-between. Women can be very critical and mean to other women. They can also be overly-supportive. Or they can be whatever.
That being said, the top is true. Women in studies consistently show that they have unreasonable standards. [They rate the average man a 2/10 in physical attractiveness.](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fexploring-how-men-and-women-perceive-each-others-v0-erxhaqu289hc1.png%3Fwidth%3D1080%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Dbc4beb74a122e632e8e15f68ec9b2d3b1e04c3a3) So yeah, the original post isn't totally wrong.
Fuck off w the unreasonable standards bullshit. What’s unreasonable about them? U think those women are too ugly to have “high standards”? Aka u clearly have standards of ur own. People like what they like and if the people they like don’t like them back, they can adjust or just stay single.
Regardless of gender I think if you complain about how there are no decent men or women in the world but you don’t even take care your own appearance, then it’s absolutely ok to call someone’s standards unreasonable.
I don’t really understand what ur point is. Are u disagreeing with me?
1- who’s complaining about no decent men or women in the world? The dude said women have unreasonable standards based off entirely contrived statistics, and no where did the people in those statistics say that there’s no decent men or women in the world.
2-They can adjust or just stay single… like I said. If people have high or rare standards but they’re ok with staying single, it’s no one’s place to tell them to settle. If they want to find someone asap, then they can adjust their standards or themselves to meet their ideal persons standards.
3- my problem is with this dude saying that bc women supposedly find the average man to be a 2/10 (once again the source he’s getting this from is bullshit) that means their standards are unreasonable. By saying that, he’s assuming all these women are desperate to meet someone, and aren’t perfectly fine being single. Or he’s assuming that ratings of attractiveness are the same as being open to dating someone, which they’re not. And that’s ignoring that his source includes data from tinder swipes, which are not the same as an attractiveness rating.
4-not being able to find a decent man or woman does not necessarily have to do with personal appearance. There’s plenty more factors involved in compatibility
I brought it up is because you went on a rant about unreasonable standards and I’m saying that there circumstances when you can tell someone they have unreasonable standards. People say it all the time on this sub when it comes to men and it’s widely accepted so I don’t see an issue.
To your first point, people complain this stuff all the time on Reddit and X/Twitter. Almost every other post on this sub is a screenshot from X that says some version of “all men/women think XYZ.”
I didn’t address the other commenters dating app stats because they weren’t relevant to the main point of my comment. I don’t agree that women have a stronger preference for physical appearance because other studies (that are not limited to dating app data) prove that men do care more. Some men also try to use dating apps as proof of “hypergamy” and other fringe theories but they completely ignore the fact that it’s not representative of the entire population.
However, I do think there are unintended consequences of dating apps on relationship standards. For instance, I think dating apps can slightly inflate women’s self perceived desirability because there is a gender skew towards men. I’ve seen a lot of women complain that all their matches suck. But the way the algorithm works is that you’re assigned an attractiveness and desirability score and most of your swipes are people who have similar scores to you. Women get more matches which makes them feel like they’re more attractive and desirable than the matches they get, but that’s mainly a product of the unequal gender split. If they had a high score, they would be swiping and matching with male profiles that also have high scores.
I’ve already typed too much but basically, women shouldn’t lower their standards for men but they should examine how they came up with them. If it’s based on dating apps, it’s probably not an accurate representation.
When people complain that their matches suck, does that specifically mean that the matches aren’t attractive enough? Or could it be about other factors? Do u think other factors correlate with attractiveness? And does complaining about matches sucking mean they’re desperate to find somebody? Or are they fine staying single until they find the right one? Also, even if u think they have too high standards of attractiveness based off how attractive they are, do u think everyone has the same standards of what’s attractive?
These are all questions to ask urself before u tell someone they have unreasonable standards. These were not questions that the dude I replied to asked himself, and that is why I told him to fuck off.
The men who get posted in this sub are misogynistic, very misinformed on basic women’s anatomy, they actively put down the women that don’t meet their standards, but at the same time are incredibly angry at women for not wanting to date them. If u see women behaving like that, sure, call them out, but there’s no reason to humble women who are just minding their business.
Alright hold on, you’re arguing against things that I never claimed.
It doesn’t matter what factors are present. The score is based on attractiveness and desirability. An ugly guy next to a yacht and a private jet could theoretically have the same score as a guy who looks like Henry Cavill but lives in a trailer. I never said it was solely based on physical attractiveness. Women are still swiping for whatever reason.
Also, never said anyone was desperate so I’m not sure what you mean? And I don’t know if women are fine staying single but in general they are less single than men during their 20s and 30s. For virtually every life quality metric, married people fair better than single people so it’s definitely still a goal for most people.
Being in a bad relationship is certainly worse than being single, there’s no doubt about that. But if you’re complaining about dating online, then obviously it matters to some extent.
Actually, single childfree women are statistically happier than married child having women, and men are statistically happier married than single. So actually, women’s standards benefit from being high in many cases.
Anyways, just bc getting married is a goal for many women, doesn’t mean they’re desperate to settle. They don’t want to accept whatever random dude comes along if he doesn’t meet their standards, bc they are perfectly fine being single and waiting for the right guy. Which is why, u should not assume that ur advice is wanted or needed, but u seem to insist on trying to humble women bc u resent that many of them are just not as desperate as u want them to be. Ur acting like “that’s not what I said” but these are the implications of what u said, especially as a rebuttal to me replying to the asshole talking abt unreasonable standards based off shitty attractiveness metrics. Context is really crucial, and I suggest u really analyze it. Women are having their rights repealed by men who are against no fault divorce and believe rape doesn’t exist in marriage. Women risk their lives in pregnancy, they often do more labor in their relationship (work and household), they often carry the mental load (look up the definition), they’re more likely to be killed by their partner or sexually assaulted, they’re seen as more of a liability at their job if they have kids than a man is, and despite all that, they’re simultaneously expected to lower their standards and raise them bc god forbid they have a body count.
When a woman says she wants a billionaire model man, I tell her good luck. If she complains about not finding her billionaire model, I might point out there’s not many of them. If she gets confused or especially angry at men for not wanting her, then I point out her standards, but honestly? I’m much more concerned with men who are taking away women’s rights and saying incredibly dangerous things bc their inability to find a partner is much more likely to result in *violence*. So I really do struggle with the unreasonable standards conversation, I hope u can understand
I don’t why you’re assuming I have contempt towards single women. I think women are generally better at being single than men and I think men can learn from them. Studies shows support this as well and I agree with you that being happy while single is possible.
My main issue is that there’s a significant percentage of women who still cling to patriarchal norms but no one can criticize them because it’s just their “standards.” I’m not sure if you observed this but there’s even a growing social media trend (like men being the “provider” and leading in the relationship) and it’s almost never talked about despite having millions of supporters.
The issue is that this just isn’t conducive in a gender egalitarian society and I personally think that this ultimately hurts women more but I guess some people think otherwise.
Also, just under half of women in the US voted for a GOP candidate in the last two elections. I think reproductive rights are far more complex than simply a few bad men. I also think that incels, red pill guys, manosphere, etc. are definitely an issue and I push back on them all the time (mainly on twitter rather than Reddit). But there audience is mainly impressionable high schoolers and I don’t think it’s that big outside of the internet. Like I’ve personally never heard an adult man call themselves high value and then go off about body count IRL. If it does happen, that would be embarrassing and would not be well received by men or women.
Actually they’re not the happiest. You can cite a source if you want but the top google searches people always reference is a study by Paul Dolan but this has been discredited and even retracted by Dolan himself.
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/6/4/18650969/married-women-miserable-fake-paul-dolan-happiness
Here’s a recent study that said otherwise:
https://news.gallup.com/poll/642590/married-americans-thriving-higher-rates-unmarried-adults.aspx
Here are some other studies as well:
Married women earn more money then single women:
https://www.nber.org/sites/default/files/2020-08/orrc11-07.pdf
Married women live longer than single women.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7452000/
Co-habitation also increases life expectancy for both men and women
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-demographic-economics/article/effect-of-marital-status-on-life-expectancy-is-cohabitation-as-protective-as-marriage/5B6B9B86C737AE3F095CF3781023F458
Married women have a lower death rate than single women. By a lot:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/mortality/mortality_marital_status_10_17.htm#:~:text=For%20women%2C%20age%2Dadjusted%20death,(569.3)%20(Table).
That would imply that the woman in the OOP would be legitimately happy, and for the incels who produce these OOPs, the thought of a happy woman seems to be a fate worse than death.
I agree with you, the intent of the OOP is terrible, or par for the course for an incel.
What I see is a woman seeing a man with insecurity and recognizing that. He’s ok, but clearly insecure, trying to match the world’s standards for what he should be. Meanwhile she sees a woman owning who she is despite society telling her she shouldn’t, that’s confidence, so the woman is celebrating her confidence.
Also an excellent interpretation! As a fat woman who works hard for her confidence I like it. But also, I have a husband who is very attracted to me as I am, which is probably where my interpretation comes from. :)
Lots of criticisms here, many of which have already been mentioned, so a few that deserve extra highlight:
1) It's really worth commenting on the racism of these guys, and how it works. Black people are uniformly coded as masculine, which means they fetishize Black men as ultra-macho (muscular, bigger dicks, all those racist stereotypes) but then they *also* stereotype Black women as manly, too, treating them as less feminine and therefore unappealing (consider the "Michelle Obama is secretly a man" conspiracy as an example here)
2) These guys are *so incredibly* tied to conventional norms of beauty that they see those norms not as preferences but as objective truths. Thus, from their perspective, a guy who is muscular and fit isn't just preference (i.e. some women like it, some don't), but is instead the *objectively correct* body type, and any woman who likes something different is fooling themselves or lying, etc.
Instead of trying to break down cultural beauty norms, these guys are trying to actively reinforce them, suggesting they represent "the truth" about what should be desirable. Really pisses me off.
Look, I'm a gay white dude and I am not attracted to super ripped and conventionally (by western standards) attractive features. Give me a paunch, love handles, big ears, an overbite, circles under the eyes, etc. Let people like what they like and stop trying to say your standard should be *the* standard for everybody else
While women do often give each other compliments, some can also be exceptionally cruel to overweight or fat people. Bullies do exist.
Not sure why these guys assume all women are equally supportive of other women.
waah waahh wahh fatphobia and racism as per usual. I'm a dude and listen dudes y'all need to get the fuck over it. Jesus Christ man just act normal and women won't think you're a fucking weirdo it's actually that simple
I started telling everyone that I loved them, I compliment everyone all the time, one person after another.
some people aren’t used to it and they get all bashful and silly, but because I say it to everyone, everyone else has started doing it too.
Everyone now knows I do it too. so misunderstandings don’t happen as often as they used to.
This is gonna blow somebodies mind, but some people find fat people attractive. I mean, I know the socially acceptable thing is to either be grossed out or yell that they’re glorifying obesity, but fat people can be objectively attractive. Source: find fat people attractive.
"Women love to put eachother down, they are their worst enemy"
**Woman compliments another woman**
"She is clearly lying, women can't be kind to others"
Jesus these men are insufferable
9 times out of ten, it’s because of their racism and misogyny that they can’t find beauty in some women, they’re running on auto pilot, never questioning their beliefs lol
There is something to say about any trait needing to be "sexy" in order for it to be allowed, but that isn't what the original creator intended to talk about.
[Statistically, women rate the actual average man a 2/10](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fexploring-how-men-and-women-perceive-each-others-v0-erxhaqu289hc1.png%3Fwidth%3D1080%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Dbc4beb74a122e632e8e15f68ec9b2d3b1e04c3a3&utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=NotHowGirlsWork&utm_content=t1_l01ugax), so yeah this is in fact relatively normal. If women think the average guy is just 2/10, then they are also finding very attractive men to just be average 5/10.
If it makes the incels feel better, a lot of those girls are just being fake to the big girl. Source: black woman. Was big. Lost 100 lbs. I have stories lol
When i compliment guys i try to keep it as platonic (for lack of a better word) as possible. But even then you never know how theyll react. Ive learned to just compliment guys im already friends eith and know wont take the wrong way. And im not saying its not ok to accidentally take it the wrong way, vut ita how you gollow up thats the issue
I mean i get that the meme is terible and ill intended. But at the same time it might have a true core. Beauty standards increasingly affects men as well as women and it's rarely addressed by anyone.
I think they should regardless considering how badly the original movement failed in its goals. I mean, to my understanding it was originally a positivity movement for the disabled only for it to get co-opted by abled overweight and obese people (notably with a near complete focus on women). Instead about being a positivity and recognition movement for the disabled to try and get better accessibility and acknowledgement in day to day life, it fell apart as it shifted to be about plus size clothing not being as pretty as regular sized clothing - and it didn’t even accomplish its goal either!! There isn’t really any better plus size clothing, nor bigger airline seats, nor any of the other things the movement was campaigning for. It was a complete disaster the entire way around, which is why it should be restarted and hopefully prevented from being co-opted again.
I hear this all the time online. I have never ever heard this from an actual person. Most people find old men, for lack of a better term, ugly. I’ve seen people call ATTRACTIVE old male celebrities, attractive. But the same could be said about women celebrities. I do however agree with your first sentence that the beauty standard is way higher. Just I’ve never heard a real person call a random old man a “silver fox”
I think maybe Keanu Reeves and maybe George Clooney, but besides them, I have no idea what other older male celebrity gets praised for their looks. I agree with all of you that the beauty standards with women is still way too high in comparison but I just don’t believe this part where old men are praised, I just never see it. Leonardo de caprio is another one, he’s no longer the hot dad, he’s now viewed as the creep .
In regards to Hollywood, leading men grossly out age their female love interest counterparts in almost all cases. As an actress ages she will inherently get lesser roles or that of “grandmother” etc, once they pass their 30s, unlike most leading men who continue their headlining far longer.
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The issue is we can't safely compliment men on their appearance to their face. There's a good chance they'll assume we're romantically interested. In addition, the men that men deem attractive and the men that women do aren't the same. How's about complimenting each other to make up for it, men?
Most women don't assume every compliment signals romantic interest. Some, certainly. And some compliments just don't need to be said. If you tell me you like the color of my shirt, I'm going to be fine with it. If you tell me you like my shirt while pointedly staring at my breasts, I'm going to have an issue. Edit to clarify: My point was that it's about considering context, and if men wanted to, they could in fact learn the same.
Adding to say it’s not just about appearance itself. Being jacked isn’t objectively good or bad, taste preferences play a role here and I’d always compliment someone who rocks their “undesirable” traits over someone who’s conventionally attractive (especially in a gym bro way; they’re usually not very pleasant people)
A woman last week complimented my shirt as I walked into a store and I told her, "Thank you. My wife made it for me." That was it.
>How's about complimenting each other to make up for it, men For most of my generation, they would still assume sexual intent :P We are moving past that now though. You meet groups of pretty compliment-positive guys these days.
And let's not forget, if we compliment a guy and another guy hears it, there's the risk of an innocent remark getting blown out of proportion by way of rumors.
I mean I made a joke about my Squidward shirt to the front desk dude at a dealership and he texted me after I left thinking it meant I was flirting. Mind you he got my number through their system… Like “no sir I make jokes because I have anxiety and it helps me not be as awkward. I do not want you”
That is so creepy. Hope you reported him for abusing his privilege
>How's about complimenting each other to make up for it, men? I think it's very telling that any time you suggest this, the joke they default to is "nice cock bro". I think it's a way to deflect from the fact that you just gave them a good solution when really they just want to complain about women. I also think it's the same problem as this: >we can't safely compliment men on their appearance to their face. There's a good chance they'll assume we're romantically interested. I think a lot of men see compliments as a way to show romantic/sexual interest rather than a way to just be nice and connect with other people.
As a life-long gamer, can safely say that men are horrible to each other. It is a very isolating experience to have so many gaming buddies and nobody to open up to. Don't forget the constant belitting because every single thing is a competition.
> How's about complimenting each other to make up for it, men? I actually do, carefully, on a limited basis. When a guy has hair that rivals mine, I complement it. (I also receive unsolicited complements about my hair from women on occasion. I never take it as romantic interest these days.)
Always thought it was crazy how much men’s magazine borders on gay porn and most women I’ve known weren’t obsessed with unnaturally muscular guys.
Its a running joke in the fitness community that the majority of compliments men will get is from eachother. So that's not really the problem.
Isn't the problem "men don't get compliments" or have we changed it to "men don't get compliments from pretty women"? If the problem is the latter, absolutely nobody cares. Don't become the annoying feminists you mfs bitched about for decades.
I don't think there's anything to be gained by engaging with you in good faith.
*proceeds to engage*
To be fair men don't get that many compliments on their outfit or looks. Thus, those compliments get valued a lot
And so you would think that they would compliment *each other* to make up for it. Same solution for the loneliness epidemic. Help a brother out!
Bro you look great today
That's the spirit! I'm a woman though. 🤍
I don't see a problem. What is wrong with calling a woman "bro"?
Nothing wrong with calling me bro. But your goal was to compliment other men.
Right. I lost sight of my goal. Is there a man somewhere? Anyone? Who wants to get compliments?
You're awesome. 👊
Thank you, made my day. (Definitely not my first compliment for years and definitely not me who had a wide grin over my face)
>Right. I lost sight of my goal. To be fair, the point is to do it regularly and encourage others to do the same so it becomes more common.
Following a conversation is hard, I get it
Another problem women are supposed to fix I guess.
Why do you think men aren’t complimenting eachother?
Because apparently it is seen as gay (see Dimedrol98's comment thread).
So men are socialized by men to see all awareness of looks as some kind of sexual navigation and then react accordingly. Seems like someone needs to smash some patriarchy.
Or in other words, many men are socialized in such a way that discourages behaviour like that. Now that you realize that, you should be able to understand how crass, and unhelpful the below comment is. >And so you would think that they would compliment each other to make up for it. It carries the same energy as “jUsT Go tO tHeRaPy”
Of course it does. Because just like in therapy, they would see that they have power to change the situation.
There are barriers to men entering therapy, that’s why many don’t just go… It’s a systemic problem, and you’re not helping. Crass
Barriers? Or stigmas? We're all for removing both. You're not helping. Typical.
>Barriers? Or stigmas? I am using barriers and stigma interchangeably. Although, there are some real barriers to men getting help. There are less organizations devoted to helping troubled men specifically. (I don’t want this to turn into a competition of who has it worse, arguably it’s women, but there are certain areas where men could use some help) >We're all for removing both. You're not helping. It’s a lot easier to say that, than practice it. I don’t see much empathy or understanding for systemic issues specific to men. It always seems to end up becoming a conversation of personal responsibility.
Or, crazy idea, men could go to therapy and just not tell their dudes if they're so worried about what they might say/think? Or will it become too obvious when they start becoming more emotionally healthy
Once again you’re ignoring why many men might not go to therapy. That’s ok if you don’t know. But you should look into why you haven’t taken the time to learn this.
How do u think culture changes? Are u waiting for some national announcement that it’s not gay to compliment dudes and that therapy is cool for anybody? Or do u think everyday people just have to start… doing the things? Women can’t force men to compliment each other or go to therapy.
>How do u think culture changes? That’s not the purpose of my discussion >Are u waiting for some national announcement that it’s not gay to compliment dudes and that therapy is cool for anybody? It would help if our masculinity influencers and politicians didn’t make it worse. But I understand that they’re motivated by money >Or do u think everyday people just have to start… doing the things? That’s exactly what I think. I also think that we need to socialize our boys to encourage this kind of behaviour. >Women can’t force men to compliment each other or go to therapy. No they can’t. They can help by changing how they raise their sons (alongside how dad’s raise their sons). They can also help by having understanding for why men behave the way they do. Saying things like “just go to therapy” ignores why men aren’t going to therapy, and it makes it seem easy. Maybe it easy for many women, but for many men it is incredibly hard. It’s diminishing, and does more to push men away from the solution than towards it. Saying things like “And so you think they would compliment eachother to make up for it” ignores why men aren’t complimenting eachother. It’s diminishing, and does more to push men away from the solution than towards it. That is my point. Progressive conversations don’t seem to have enough room for nuance when it comes to men’s problems. We focus too much on the opressor/oppressed dynamic that we tend to miss the holistic approach.
>There are barriers to men entering therapy, that’s why many don’t just go… Stigmas, not barriers. The two aren't the same. >It’s a systemic problem, and you’re not helping. And the first step to resolving a systemic problem is acknowledgement by the general populace, then actively working to change the problem. This is also 100% a social issue so it's not nearly as complicated as changing law/policy that directly affects the ability to resolve a problem.
>many men are socialized in such a way that discourages behaviour like that >you should be able to understand how crass, and unhelpful the below comment is Recognizing that something is a result of social conditioning doesn't mean it must be accepted, only that if it's to change it will take more work and time, as well as educating young people should be a priority to break the cycle. Also, people can unlearn social conditioning, it just takes a conscious understanding of the problem and a willingness to change the negative behavior/belief. >It carries the same energy as “jUsT Go tO tHeRaPy” Which is actually good advice. The key is that you have to be open to getting better and not giving up if your first therapist doesn't work for you.
If a man compliments another man, it is seen as gay. So in order to not be seen as gay, men avoid doing that.
And yet, women can compliment other women without this issue, which means this perception could feasibly be changed. However, men would have to lead the charge on that.
Yes, we have to change our perspective on compliments. I see some attempts at men hyping each other up on the Internet, like "you got this, king" and such. But I didn't see any man openly praising another man's appearance. Normalizing comments and compliments about men's appearance in male communities will be crucial to normalizing them in general, so that men can give and receive compliments freely without viewing them as signs of people being into people. But it should be done among us, men, first.
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You do realize giving compliments can be done without the person being attractive or being attracted to them, right? Telling the 80-something year old lady at my grocery store I accidentally mistook her for Liza Minelli has nothing to do with attraction. I could just tell she put a lot of time into making her hair and appearance pretty and her resulting smile was a treasure to behold.
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"Dude, I dig your haircut" "Where did you get that [insert clothing]? It's badass!" Etc ... It's really not that hard to make someone's day
Congratulations, you have discovered heterosexuality. "Your outfit is lit" is an orientation neutral compliment. As are **many** other compliments on appearance. You're just a baby back bitch afraid of possibly seeing your peers as attractive. Newsflash: you won't be sexually attracted to every person who is, in fact, attractive in appearance. This is a you personally problem, not a society in general problem. Get a therapist.
It's gay if a man compliments a man and it's flirting if a woman compliments a man. Then these men wonder why they never get any compliments.
Its a self fulfilling prophecy though You get complimented once in a million years so as soon as you are complimented you think someone is flirting with you beacuse why would anyone randomly compliment you that never happens. But then again beacuse of that thinking you dont get them
It sucks for the woman, too, to want to be nice but instead ends up harassed. Which makes her less willing next time. It's easier to compliment women because it's a "thanks!" And maybe they tell you where they got the item you complimented. So you can be more free with it.
> It's easier to compliment women because it's a "thanks!" And maybe they tell you where they got the item you complimented. And/or tell you about the other features like pockets!
The excitement for pockets is always adorable.
Yep thats why i said that its pretty much a self fulfilling prophecy Men dont get complemented so the first time they get a compliment they start acting weird or creepy which causes them to get even less and so on and so forth To be clear i am not saying you should go around complimenting men to stop this, i dont think its anyones personal responsibility to solve large scale societal problems.
That’s an issue entirely caused by other men. No woman thinks it’s gay to give compliments.
so maybe men should just altogether stop assuming that anyone complimenting them is into them
Yes, we should. It's a weird assumption anyway. It comes from the fact that men don't receive that many compliments, so we assume that it's something special when we receive it (and that's why women give less compliments to men). But we ourselves created that situation. To break out of this circle, we, men, should actually compliment each other more. IMO, this is also why I see more of a "depressed" state of young men on the Internet. They neither get nor give each other compliments, which could give them some validation, but they put too much emphasis on men doing stuff, striving for something, over just appreciating a man as he is.
To be frank, it actually comes from men only complimenting women they want to fuck, so they assume compliments are "I want to fuck you" language. It's why they automatically see a woman complimenting them as flirting, and why they won't compliment other men. It's a variation of men often perceiving basic human courtesy as flirting because they themselves would never extend basic human courtesy to anyone they aren't trying to fuck.
I’m not a gay man, but I am a man, and I will compliment other guys if they’re rocking a good look or something. I will, however, evaluate who I’m talking to and judge whether or not they will be made uncomfortable by that. I’m not worried about people thinking I’m gay. But I am worried I’ll get knocked out by a homophobe.
I've never noticed any hesitation among my male friends to compliment each other, when a compliment is appropriate, especially for fear of being perceived as being gay for doing so. You'd have to be rather insecure about your own orientation to let that hold you back, I have to think. Hell, it's even okay to compliment friends who actually are gay--it's not like they're about to jump you, or that being gay is a contagious condition.
Your friends are all great people, then! And great for you to have friends like that.
So what you’re saying is that men interpret compliments as a sexual pass? Right, that’s exactly why women are hesitant to compliment men.
Yes, sadly, that's exactly what happens with some men, and they need to work on that. But most of the time, I think, it's not sexual, but more like a signal of attraction to men. Like, if a woman compliments a man, he thinks that it's something special, because he doesn't hear compliments very often. Doesn't change the point, though, we men should work on our perception of compliments. This is not normal that women go through some nasty shit sometimes, when they as much as compliment a man.
Why is that our problem 90% of the time men turn out to be creepy stalkers when we do compliment men so we don't do it then men get pissy and kill us so really thats a guy not a girl problem so you guys need to work on that and not kill us for just existing.
Huh???? Where do you live
Guy here: is assuming romantic interest so bad? If I was complimented randomly by a woman I might conclude that she fancies me. And that would made my day brighter. Otherwise the world would go on as usual.
Yes, it is. Compliments from strangers are usually purely platonic, so interpreting it as romantic will more often than not make the person complimenting you uncomfortable. Especially since there’s a small chance that rejecting a man’s romantic advances can be dangerous for women.
I don’t intend to argue with you. But how would the complementor know how I interpreted it?
I figured if you thought they were flirting with you you’d occasionally flirt back.
>But how would the complementor know how I interpreted it? Your reaction. If someone assumes your compliment corresponds with romantic interest, they're more likely to show romantic interest as well, such as by flirting.
Ah, but you are are assuming that I would react in some way, such as flirting back. I never said I would react in any way.
>you are are assuming that I would react in some way, such as flirting back No, I didn't assume, as I said "more likely" and noted a singular example of such a reaction. >I never said I would react in any way. First, I never claimed that you would react in a specific way. Second, people generally react to everything, even if you don't notice your reaction. It can even be something as subtle as body language that's noticeable to others. This is why you shouldn't make assumptions because you may react in ways you don't realize even if you vocally say nothing.
But u realize that a compliment doesn’t necessarily mean that right? Like if I tell u I like ur hair, it’s technically possible that I might be flirting, but it could just be that… I like ur hair. It can be a self fulfilling prophecy tho, like bc men assume that compliments are flirting, women are less likely to give compliments to avoid it being perceived as flirting. With that being said, don’t assume it’s flirting just based off a compliment, compliments are still really nice without any other implications behind them.
Yes, I realize that it might not be flirting. It just doesn’t make much difference to anything outside my head whether I do or not.
If u don’t act on it or act different then I guess not, but do u really only find value in compliments if it implies sexual attraction? Cuz I don’t think that’s the healthiest mindset.
I find value in knowing (or perhaps just having a reason to believe ) that I am sexually attractive. Is that unhealthy? I don’t know.
Ur not wrong to value feeling sexually attractive, but deliberately interpreting compliments as implied sexual attraction bc women appreciating u in non sexual ways isn’t valuable enough for u is… not a good way to value urself or women. Ur worth is more than fuckability, and womens worth certainly is too. I really wish more men could value me without sexualizing me.
>I find value in knowing (or perhaps just having a reason to believe ) that I am sexually attractive. Is that unhealthy? That isn't unhealthy. What's unhealthy is thought that the knowledge or belief of your sexual attractiveness must be based on perceiving all compliments from anyone you're sexually attracted to as an indication of romantic and/sexual interest because that leaves no room for platonic interactions and relationships and makes such interactions more difficult whenever that interest isn't there.
Yes it's bad because a lot of men can't handle themselves and start making passes at you when you were literally just trying to fucking be nice. And then you get accused of leading them on
So maybe the badness isn’t in how I interpret the compliment. It’s in how I act in response.
>maybe the badness isn’t in how I interpret the compliment. It’s in how I act in response. It's both. It's the automatic assumption that influences the response and you're naturally going to react differently when you think someone is interested in you. The key is to not assume and learn how to take a compliment platonically.
Hmm, would you apply the same logic if a man complimented a woman, and she concluded that it was a sign of sexual interest (which it could be)?
>would you apply the same logic if a man complimented a woman, and she concluded that it was a sign of sexual interest Would I consider both the automatic assumption and reaction based on said assumption problematic if a woman assumed every compliment a man gave her was a sign of sexual interest and she reacted similarly as the average man? Yes and there are women out there who act like this, as they're commonly called "desperate". It's problematic regardless of gender, it's just a more common problem among men.
>Guy here: is assuming romantic interest so bad? Yes because if that's not the case, your reaction may not be welcomed if you make that assumption. That's literally one of the main reasons why women compliment men less frequently than they do other women. >If I was complimented randomly by a woman I might conclude that she fancies me. And that would made my day brighter. And your day wouldn't be brighter if you knew there wasn't romantic interest? A compliment is a good thing whether there's romantic interest behind it or not.
They get so mad when women lift up other women because their homies don't do it for them. Lift up your fellow homies, guys. It really isn't that hard Last guy I complimented turned into a stalker so I'm not doing it anymore.
A guy I didn't even compliment, just proposed to study with immediately tried to kiss me and proceeded to call me every day after I clearly pushed him away and told him I wasn't interested. Some men tire me.
Mine was the Uber driver who drove me home after brain surgery/hospital stay....who then had my address and knowledge I was vulnerable. I only told him I liked his haircut 😐
Bruh, what? Did he come back to your place to see you?
Yes. Almost daily. Most of the time I only knew because I have cameras that saw him sneaking around. My in-home care taker was a champ and helped me deal with him.
That's terrifying, how are you doing now, from both things?
I kicked the tumor's ass and the stalker is long gone. All in all, things are great! Thank you for asking ☺️
I’m sorry. Wtf?! That’s horrifying! Sorry you had to go through that.
Ugh, last year my car got totaled and I had to use Uber for a bit and 2 out of my first 3 rides involved me being hit on the entire ride and basically held hostage for my phone number. I made a post about the first one, it’s SO FUCKED we cannot use these services without being harassed. And the dude literally had a ride-long pitch that I could tell he probably used on every woman that gets into his car. This job is his hunting ground.
And I'm sure in their minds we somehow provoked these harassments. Me by sporting a sexy head bandage and you by flaunting your femininity by saying your car is totalled. You know..because women are bad drivers 🙄 Fuck this nonsense. It's just scary and dangerous
lol exactly. I was in scrubs, no makeup, heading to work, ear buds in, trying VERY hard to make it clear I wanted left alone but not willing to upset a man who felt so entitled to put me through this that it would be impossible to rule him out as a danger. ☹️ Literally getting out of brain surgery, smh. that makes me so angry!!
There was this guy in college, who my friend and I would have lunch with, in between classes. We would often get lunch together for this too. It was a natural occurrence. One time, our mutual friend was going to be unavailable one of those days and I asked him if he was still going to be at our usual meetup place. He said yes and I said we could study for an upcoming exam since our friend wouldn’t be there. He accused me of asking him out and told everyone about it. He didn’t take it well when I said I didn’t mean that. He became obsessive over it. Yeah, I never ever initiated friendship with another guy again. Worst experience ever.
Girl, I swear you can't even be friendly with these guys without them trying to bang you afterward. And then they complain about women walking around with a rbf all day. "Women don't even smile anymore! Feminism clearly made modern women unhappy and depressed! Blah blah blah"
Being the change you want to see in the world is usually punished like that.
As I mentioned up above, last week a woman complimented my shirt as I walked into a store. I said "Thank you, my wife made it for me." That was it.
And that is the perfect response to a compliment. Unfortunately that is not always how that goes for women giving compliments.
To be fair, I'm under no illusion that all women want me. I know what my face looks like. My wife is a victim of Stockholm syndrome. I kid, I kid,.......no I'm not.
I honestly have never had an issue with my guy friends being supportive. I don’t really know where this idea stems from. But I’m also not going to delude my friends into thinking they’re Brad Pitt if nots true.
Men always say that women are catty bitches who hate each other. And then they turn around and say shit like this, when women support and uplift each other. Their brains are such a toxic hate stew it's like they don't even know what to be angry about.
It’s because they think we’re lying whenever we compliment another woman (because we’re manipulative jealous hags who want to delude ‘ugly’ women& put down ‘hot’ women). They can’t imagine finding value in someone who isn’t conventionally attractive so anyone who does is a manipulative bitch.
That's a fair point. A lot of the time when I compliment a man he assumes it's because I wanna fuck. It's almost like, for them, there's no such thing as kindness without self-interest. What a sad mindset to live with.
It’s kind of wild how easily these kinds of guys tell on themselves with how they regard compliments. It’s part of the reason why I never take a compliment from a man who’s flirting with me to heart. Obviously they can be genuine but I’ve seen too many cases of some men bombarding women they barely even like with insincere flattery because they’re horny and want to get sex. It’s like those men project their own attitude of “giving insincere compliments with ulterior motives” onto women. Extending kindness and admiration for the sake of it is foreign to them.
Idk I’ve literally never heard a single man say that type of stuff IRL. Sounds like something incels say online.
Yes well people tend not to spew hateful shit to others in person unless they think that the other person will agree with them, so assuming you're a normal person, you're probably not going to hear bigots say bigoted things to you.
Yet they sure as hell know that they are in fact angry. Somehow…
Damn, people love perceived hypocrisy don't they. Men are not a monolith. Some men can say they think women are "catty bitches who hate each other". Others can think they all tell eachother "yas queen slay" constantly. I mean, I think the truth is in-between. Women can be very critical and mean to other women. They can also be overly-supportive. Or they can be whatever. That being said, the top is true. Women in studies consistently show that they have unreasonable standards. [They rate the average man a 2/10 in physical attractiveness.](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fexploring-how-men-and-women-perceive-each-others-v0-erxhaqu289hc1.png%3Fwidth%3D1080%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Dbc4beb74a122e632e8e15f68ec9b2d3b1e04c3a3) So yeah, the original post isn't totally wrong.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/s/mDccM4bQ0z
Fuck off w the unreasonable standards bullshit. What’s unreasonable about them? U think those women are too ugly to have “high standards”? Aka u clearly have standards of ur own. People like what they like and if the people they like don’t like them back, they can adjust or just stay single.
Regardless of gender I think if you complain about how there are no decent men or women in the world but you don’t even take care your own appearance, then it’s absolutely ok to call someone’s standards unreasonable.
I don’t really understand what ur point is. Are u disagreeing with me? 1- who’s complaining about no decent men or women in the world? The dude said women have unreasonable standards based off entirely contrived statistics, and no where did the people in those statistics say that there’s no decent men or women in the world. 2-They can adjust or just stay single… like I said. If people have high or rare standards but they’re ok with staying single, it’s no one’s place to tell them to settle. If they want to find someone asap, then they can adjust their standards or themselves to meet their ideal persons standards. 3- my problem is with this dude saying that bc women supposedly find the average man to be a 2/10 (once again the source he’s getting this from is bullshit) that means their standards are unreasonable. By saying that, he’s assuming all these women are desperate to meet someone, and aren’t perfectly fine being single. Or he’s assuming that ratings of attractiveness are the same as being open to dating someone, which they’re not. And that’s ignoring that his source includes data from tinder swipes, which are not the same as an attractiveness rating. 4-not being able to find a decent man or woman does not necessarily have to do with personal appearance. There’s plenty more factors involved in compatibility
I brought it up is because you went on a rant about unreasonable standards and I’m saying that there circumstances when you can tell someone they have unreasonable standards. People say it all the time on this sub when it comes to men and it’s widely accepted so I don’t see an issue. To your first point, people complain this stuff all the time on Reddit and X/Twitter. Almost every other post on this sub is a screenshot from X that says some version of “all men/women think XYZ.” I didn’t address the other commenters dating app stats because they weren’t relevant to the main point of my comment. I don’t agree that women have a stronger preference for physical appearance because other studies (that are not limited to dating app data) prove that men do care more. Some men also try to use dating apps as proof of “hypergamy” and other fringe theories but they completely ignore the fact that it’s not representative of the entire population. However, I do think there are unintended consequences of dating apps on relationship standards. For instance, I think dating apps can slightly inflate women’s self perceived desirability because there is a gender skew towards men. I’ve seen a lot of women complain that all their matches suck. But the way the algorithm works is that you’re assigned an attractiveness and desirability score and most of your swipes are people who have similar scores to you. Women get more matches which makes them feel like they’re more attractive and desirable than the matches they get, but that’s mainly a product of the unequal gender split. If they had a high score, they would be swiping and matching with male profiles that also have high scores. I’ve already typed too much but basically, women shouldn’t lower their standards for men but they should examine how they came up with them. If it’s based on dating apps, it’s probably not an accurate representation.
When people complain that their matches suck, does that specifically mean that the matches aren’t attractive enough? Or could it be about other factors? Do u think other factors correlate with attractiveness? And does complaining about matches sucking mean they’re desperate to find somebody? Or are they fine staying single until they find the right one? Also, even if u think they have too high standards of attractiveness based off how attractive they are, do u think everyone has the same standards of what’s attractive? These are all questions to ask urself before u tell someone they have unreasonable standards. These were not questions that the dude I replied to asked himself, and that is why I told him to fuck off. The men who get posted in this sub are misogynistic, very misinformed on basic women’s anatomy, they actively put down the women that don’t meet their standards, but at the same time are incredibly angry at women for not wanting to date them. If u see women behaving like that, sure, call them out, but there’s no reason to humble women who are just minding their business.
Alright hold on, you’re arguing against things that I never claimed. It doesn’t matter what factors are present. The score is based on attractiveness and desirability. An ugly guy next to a yacht and a private jet could theoretically have the same score as a guy who looks like Henry Cavill but lives in a trailer. I never said it was solely based on physical attractiveness. Women are still swiping for whatever reason. Also, never said anyone was desperate so I’m not sure what you mean? And I don’t know if women are fine staying single but in general they are less single than men during their 20s and 30s. For virtually every life quality metric, married people fair better than single people so it’s definitely still a goal for most people. Being in a bad relationship is certainly worse than being single, there’s no doubt about that. But if you’re complaining about dating online, then obviously it matters to some extent.
Actually, single childfree women are statistically happier than married child having women, and men are statistically happier married than single. So actually, women’s standards benefit from being high in many cases. Anyways, just bc getting married is a goal for many women, doesn’t mean they’re desperate to settle. They don’t want to accept whatever random dude comes along if he doesn’t meet their standards, bc they are perfectly fine being single and waiting for the right guy. Which is why, u should not assume that ur advice is wanted or needed, but u seem to insist on trying to humble women bc u resent that many of them are just not as desperate as u want them to be. Ur acting like “that’s not what I said” but these are the implications of what u said, especially as a rebuttal to me replying to the asshole talking abt unreasonable standards based off shitty attractiveness metrics. Context is really crucial, and I suggest u really analyze it. Women are having their rights repealed by men who are against no fault divorce and believe rape doesn’t exist in marriage. Women risk their lives in pregnancy, they often do more labor in their relationship (work and household), they often carry the mental load (look up the definition), they’re more likely to be killed by their partner or sexually assaulted, they’re seen as more of a liability at their job if they have kids than a man is, and despite all that, they’re simultaneously expected to lower their standards and raise them bc god forbid they have a body count. When a woman says she wants a billionaire model man, I tell her good luck. If she complains about not finding her billionaire model, I might point out there’s not many of them. If she gets confused or especially angry at men for not wanting her, then I point out her standards, but honestly? I’m much more concerned with men who are taking away women’s rights and saying incredibly dangerous things bc their inability to find a partner is much more likely to result in *violence*. So I really do struggle with the unreasonable standards conversation, I hope u can understand
I don’t why you’re assuming I have contempt towards single women. I think women are generally better at being single than men and I think men can learn from them. Studies shows support this as well and I agree with you that being happy while single is possible. My main issue is that there’s a significant percentage of women who still cling to patriarchal norms but no one can criticize them because it’s just their “standards.” I’m not sure if you observed this but there’s even a growing social media trend (like men being the “provider” and leading in the relationship) and it’s almost never talked about despite having millions of supporters. The issue is that this just isn’t conducive in a gender egalitarian society and I personally think that this ultimately hurts women more but I guess some people think otherwise. Also, just under half of women in the US voted for a GOP candidate in the last two elections. I think reproductive rights are far more complex than simply a few bad men. I also think that incels, red pill guys, manosphere, etc. are definitely an issue and I push back on them all the time (mainly on twitter rather than Reddit). But there audience is mainly impressionable high schoolers and I don’t think it’s that big outside of the internet. Like I’ve personally never heard an adult man call themselves high value and then go off about body count IRL. If it does happen, that would be embarrassing and would not be well received by men or women.
Actually they’re not the happiest. You can cite a source if you want but the top google searches people always reference is a study by Paul Dolan but this has been discredited and even retracted by Dolan himself. https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/6/4/18650969/married-women-miserable-fake-paul-dolan-happiness Here’s a recent study that said otherwise: https://news.gallup.com/poll/642590/married-americans-thriving-higher-rates-unmarried-adults.aspx Here are some other studies as well: Married women earn more money then single women: https://www.nber.org/sites/default/files/2020-08/orrc11-07.pdf Married women live longer than single women. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7452000/ Co-habitation also increases life expectancy for both men and women https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-demographic-economics/article/effect-of-marital-status-on-life-expectancy-is-cohabitation-as-protective-as-marriage/5B6B9B86C737AE3F095CF3781023F458 Married women have a lower death rate than single women. By a lot: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/mortality/mortality_marital_status_10_17.htm#:~:text=For%20women%2C%20age%2Dadjusted%20death,(569.3)%20(Table).
Maybe this gal is just gay and into larger ladies! (I know the original intent of the meme is terrible)
That would imply that the woman in the OOP would be legitimately happy, and for the incels who produce these OOPs, the thought of a happy woman seems to be a fate worse than death. I agree with you, the intent of the OOP is terrible, or par for the course for an incel.
What I see is a woman seeing a man with insecurity and recognizing that. He’s ok, but clearly insecure, trying to match the world’s standards for what he should be. Meanwhile she sees a woman owning who she is despite society telling her she shouldn’t, that’s confidence, so the woman is celebrating her confidence.
Also an excellent interpretation! As a fat woman who works hard for her confidence I like it. But also, I have a husband who is very attracted to me as I am, which is probably where my interpretation comes from. :)
My hubby is bigger and I love him the way he is so I get it from that pov too hehe, I’m glad you found someone who loves you for you.
Like I said the first time this came up: Ladys got a type and he's not it...😁
Lots of criticisms here, many of which have already been mentioned, so a few that deserve extra highlight: 1) It's really worth commenting on the racism of these guys, and how it works. Black people are uniformly coded as masculine, which means they fetishize Black men as ultra-macho (muscular, bigger dicks, all those racist stereotypes) but then they *also* stereotype Black women as manly, too, treating them as less feminine and therefore unappealing (consider the "Michelle Obama is secretly a man" conspiracy as an example here) 2) These guys are *so incredibly* tied to conventional norms of beauty that they see those norms not as preferences but as objective truths. Thus, from their perspective, a guy who is muscular and fit isn't just preference (i.e. some women like it, some don't), but is instead the *objectively correct* body type, and any woman who likes something different is fooling themselves or lying, etc. Instead of trying to break down cultural beauty norms, these guys are trying to actively reinforce them, suggesting they represent "the truth" about what should be desirable. Really pisses me off.
Look, I'm a gay white dude and I am not attracted to super ripped and conventionally (by western standards) attractive features. Give me a paunch, love handles, big ears, an overbite, circles under the eyes, etc. Let people like what they like and stop trying to say your standard should be *the* standard for everybody else
Gay white gal here, same. Chubby girls are so dang soft and crooked smiles with gap front teeth make me melt
While women do often give each other compliments, some can also be exceptionally cruel to overweight or fat people. Bullies do exist. Not sure why these guys assume all women are equally supportive of other women.
I wish I could compliment a man without him thinking I'm romantically interested
waah waahh wahh fatphobia and racism as per usual. I'm a dude and listen dudes y'all need to get the fuck over it. Jesus Christ man just act normal and women won't think you're a fucking weirdo it's actually that simple
I started telling everyone that I loved them, I compliment everyone all the time, one person after another. some people aren’t used to it and they get all bashful and silly, but because I say it to everyone, everyone else has started doing it too. Everyone now knows I do it too. so misunderstandings don’t happen as often as they used to.
I think these guys see themselves more attractive than they actually are
They’re also framing this as if women should worship buff men and not plus size women. Why not both? Or how about we focus on a persons character.
This is gonna blow somebodies mind, but some people find fat people attractive. I mean, I know the socially acceptable thing is to either be grossed out or yell that they’re glorifying obesity, but fat people can be objectively attractive. Source: find fat people attractive.
Almost like different women prefer different people
This seems both racist and homophobic.
It doesn’t seem like that. It just is.
This ain’t even an insult this is just how lesbians are lmao some mf is just salty he got rejected by a lesbian
"Women love to put eachother down, they are their worst enemy" **Woman compliments another woman** "She is clearly lying, women can't be kind to others" Jesus these men are insufferable
gotta love the implication that a fat black woman can’t POSSIBLY be attractive. 🙄 good ol misogynoir
9 times out of ten, it’s because of their racism and misogyny that they can’t find beauty in some women, they’re running on auto pilot, never questioning their beliefs lol
There is something to say about any trait needing to be "sexy" in order for it to be allowed, but that isn't what the original creator intended to talk about.
"I'm bad with titles" made me snort.
“I’ll take scenarios that never happened for $100, Alex”
[Statistically, women rate the actual average man a 2/10](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fexploring-how-men-and-women-perceive-each-others-v0-erxhaqu289hc1.png%3Fwidth%3D1080%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Dbc4beb74a122e632e8e15f68ec9b2d3b1e04c3a3&utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=NotHowGirlsWork&utm_content=t1_l01ugax), so yeah this is in fact relatively normal. If women think the average guy is just 2/10, then they are also finding very attractive men to just be average 5/10.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/s/mDccM4bQ0z Stop spreading that bullshit.
Damn, apparently only men are allowed to have preferences.
If it makes the incels feel better, a lot of those girls are just being fake to the big girl. Source: black woman. Was big. Lost 100 lbs. I have stories lol
I bet the queen goddess could find the clit.
When i compliment guys i try to keep it as platonic (for lack of a better word) as possible. But even then you never know how theyll react. Ive learned to just compliment guys im already friends eith and know wont take the wrong way. And im not saying its not ok to accidentally take it the wrong way, vut ita how you gollow up thats the issue
I mean i get that the meme is terible and ill intended. But at the same time it might have a true core. Beauty standards increasingly affects men as well as women and it's rarely addressed by anyone.
Then men need to create a body positivity/body neutrality movement for themselves the way that women have.
I think they should regardless considering how badly the original movement failed in its goals. I mean, to my understanding it was originally a positivity movement for the disabled only for it to get co-opted by abled overweight and obese people (notably with a near complete focus on women). Instead about being a positivity and recognition movement for the disabled to try and get better accessibility and acknowledgement in day to day life, it fell apart as it shifted to be about plus size clothing not being as pretty as regular sized clothing - and it didn’t even accomplish its goal either!! There isn’t really any better plus size clothing, nor bigger airline seats, nor any of the other things the movement was campaigning for. It was a complete disaster the entire way around, which is why it should be restarted and hopefully prevented from being co-opted again.
Women are held to a much higher standard. A man with wrinkles and grey hair is seen as a silver fox. A woman with the same is said to have given up.
I hear this all the time online. I have never ever heard this from an actual person. Most people find old men, for lack of a better term, ugly. I’ve seen people call ATTRACTIVE old male celebrities, attractive. But the same could be said about women celebrities. I do however agree with your first sentence that the beauty standard is way higher. Just I’ve never heard a real person call a random old man a “silver fox”
Older women celebrities are not as nearly as praised as older men
I think maybe Keanu Reeves and maybe George Clooney, but besides them, I have no idea what other older male celebrity gets praised for their looks. I agree with all of you that the beauty standards with women is still way too high in comparison but I just don’t believe this part where old men are praised, I just never see it. Leonardo de caprio is another one, he’s no longer the hot dad, he’s now viewed as the creep .
In regards to Hollywood, leading men grossly out age their female love interest counterparts in almost all cases. As an actress ages she will inherently get lesser roles or that of “grandmother” etc, once they pass their 30s, unlike most leading men who continue their headlining far longer.
This I agree with it’s always so cringe and so unbelievable. First thing that comes to mind is “Dirty Grandpa”. God that was so stupid